I really hope my sitch is not as deep as yours. It sounds like it is going to be very difficult for you and your H to reconcile. I suggest you read DR before you give a copy to your H. Have you thought of calling and setting up some coaching sessions?
As I see it right now, you seem to be floundering. You want to trust your H, and you want to love him, but you don't trust him, and right now don't want a whole lot to do with him. You really need to read DR. You need to set goals for yourself and what you want, kind of like my other thread, but I may have gone overboard a little. You need to get a plan of action to attain those goals. You will probably need help refining those goals and the plan of action to reach them. As Michele says, take action. What has been happening for a long time is not working, so stop doing that. Do something else, almost anything else (as long as it is legal in your state )
Read DR first, start working on yourself, and then get a copy to your H. You will feel better about yourself. If your H then reads it and takes it to heart, then maybe you two can start meshing your goals together. Get that copy for yourself first and read it. Keep posting here as I like this bouncing of ideas that you and I are doing.
How to forgive? I really don't know how to answer that one. I have never had something significant to forgive before, and even if I did, each person probably has to do it in their own way. You need to find a way to get there if you and your H have a chance. Again, as DR says, you have to be the one to change. You change, and start pressing the positive buttons in your H, and he will begin to change. I really would recommend talking to a coach to work on your goals and a plan of action. There is another website out there called saveyourmarriage.com. They have seminars around the country that last Fri-Sun. One of my goals is to have W and I go. It is in a few months for us, so I don't need to pressure her at this time.
You could say that I am floundering, and I would agree. Here is what happens....
I find myself wanting to work things out w/ H. We get together for a date or something related to the house. Things usually begin well and we have a great time together, but then it happens. We get into an argument.
I would like to say it's the insecurity at the fact that we are separated, but he says I foster that insecurity by omission. For example, when he calls and I am on the other line instead of telling him "I am talking to _____ on the other line". I just say "I am on the other line". If he asks, I always tell him whom I am talking to. You would think ah-ha, there is the solution, just say who I am talking to up front. However, it is not that easy. I purposely avoid saying who I am talking to b/c I have two very dear girlfriends that he dislikes. Therefore, when I do admit that I am talking to one of them - he will have some sarcastic comment to make - like "oh, what bad thing did she say about me today?" Therefore, I have learned NOT to say who it is - to avoid the sarcasm and attitude I get when I do tell him. The bad part is that my two girlfriends do not dislike him; they just want me to be happy. He dislikes them b/c when we were talking about separating - they encouraged it.
It's all stupid little things like that. When I tell him the reason I don't openly talk to him is b/c I get attitude in return. he says he doesn't do that, but I have repeated some of his comments to him. After that he just tells me it's b/c of some other thing I or my friends have done that he gets that way. It is so bad that my cell phone can't ring w/o some comment from him. I have gotten to the point where I'd prefer not to have my cell on or even w/ me when we are together.
However, I have a lot of family and friends who have become my support group. Leaving my phone off ultimately makes me feel like he is controlling me and I am a prisoner in my own home.
For you to fully understand, I have to give you a bit more history. In the beginning, when we were both happy, in-love, we moved in together. I had a friend that he disliked for a valid reason - she cheated on all her boyfriends. He would tell me I wasn't allowed to go to lunch, the mall, or anywhere else w/ her; she wasn't allowed over unless he was home, etc. It just got to be where I wasn't allowed to do anything (even grocery shopping) w/o him. I started truly feeling like a prisoner. The consequences of his threats was that we would break up. he would leave me if I went anywhere w/o him.
I finally broke this pattern after 6 - 9 months when I called his bluff. One night my cheater friend called, said she thought she was pregnant, didn't know who the father was and wanted to talk. Mind you we were all freshman in college and she was my best friend all through high school. I said sure - I would meet her. I called H; told him the situation. He told me that if I went to meet her not to come home after. That I wouldn't have a home to come home to. He said he would change the locks, puts my things outside, and take all the money out of our accounts (Which was our tuition money). After crying and fighting w/ H about this; I finally said to myself - I don't want to live like this. My friends are important to me and I am going to be a friend.
I called my mom, asked if I could move home, figured out that I could save up enough for tuition before the payment was due, etc. I called H back and told him to start packing my stuff. I was meeting my friend. He then said things like "I can't believe you are willing to throw our R away over this". He often tries to manipulate me to get his way. Usually, I let him - until I have had enough.
The truth of the matter was, I wasn't happy w/ the arrangement as it was. H could out and do whatever he wanted w/ any of his friends, but I wasn't allowed out at all?
This has been pretty typical of our entire R. Looking back, I feel like I have had to fight for everything that I wanted/needed.
I just feel like I am not strong enough, nor do I have the energy to constantly be asserting myself in the R. I want someone who wants to do for me as I do for them.
I told you about the money issues...well, I sort of cured that by making him give me his credit cards after much fighting and bickering back and forth. This was a few years ago. After having his credit cards for about a month, I told him that I did not want to be his mother. That he needed to be responsible and I said he either cut them up or I was out of the R. I explained that I was tired of being the one to sacrifice so we could save to buy a nice house. Either he was with me, as he claimed to be, or he wasn't. His choice.
After that we were not purchasing anything on credit. One night we were out at the mall. I had just gone to the eye doctor a few days prior to learn that I needed glasses for distance (driving, movies, etc.). We went into a entertainment place where he found some box movie set he just had to have. I said no, that we could use the money for other things. He kept on and on about this freaking box set (picture a little kid wanting something - that's what it was like). I finally gave in. $160 later, he had his box set. Let's just say that I waited another 2 months before getting glasses. When we got home, I said you know, I need glasses. Don't you think that is more important than movies? he said yes. Let's go get you glasses. I said we didn't have enough money to do both. his resposne - let's charge the glasses.
My C said I should have made him return the box set and used the money for glasses. I didn't. I wanted to be a nice W and let him have the things he wanted. Only, I was doing so at my expense. I was enabling the behavior. I agree, but at the same time I shouldn't have to take on a parental role w/ my H. Nor, did I want that role. I already felt like the secretary, the maid, the chef and occasionally when I wasn't totally exhausted and emotionally drained the lover.
I hope that explains a little more of why I am floundering. I am so tired of fighting literally and figuratively for everything. I don't think a R should be this hard.
After so many split ups and back together agains it's no wonder you're hesitant to jump back in. I wouldn't either. You MUST have a soft spot if you keep taking him back and all it takes is promises and begging. I just had several comments.
1) I don't know if it sounds much like your husband has changed. It sounds more like the same pattern you described in the past. In order to effect real change he needs to "get it". Maybe the only way to acheive that is to be less accessible to him, especially regarding dates, etc, unless you really see signs of change.
2) It sounds like you're really still quite angry with him. Do you think you can let go of some of the past hurts if he does manage to change?
3) It sounds like the person working on improving how they are and how they feel is you. I hope for his sake that he can do the same so he'll become more attractive to you again. Personally, I think that the changes you are asking him to make aren't ones that he should be making for you, but ones that he should be making for himself. I know when I wrote down my list of things I wanted to change about myself, I was really stoked. It made me happy because even if my M didn't work out I would feel better about me. I'm not sure your husband has made the connection that he needs to change for his own good, not just yours. In that case, I doubt any changes could be permanent.
Don't have any specific advice except to take care of your own happiness and not worry so much about his. Even if he sounds miserable. You aren't responsible for his happiness and certainly shouldn't be his sole source. He's got to find things outside the marriage and within himself to make him happy. You continue to think about your happiness. I hope for your M sake that he gets it together.
Wes
You cannot be lonely if you like the person you're alone with. Dr. Wayne Dyer
I was not trying to say you are doing anything wrong. You are hurt. You are staying hurt because nothing new is happening. Take some action that you have not done before. Any action. Well, let me slow that down first. Read DR, make some goals of the direction you think you would like to take, and a plan of action to get there, then take some action.
Please keep posting here as you go along. I would love to have my W read DR, but I would not dare give it to her now. I am hoping that I and others here giving our ideas to get our WAS back will get your feedback as to if it could work. Your advice has been invaluable to me, thank you. I, and others, would like to help you get through to your H to help you no longer be a WAW.
1) That's my point. It's the same ol' thing...he does good while I am gone and when I come back, but it has never lasted. I do think he has made small changes - like keeping the house clean - but I question the permanance of this change. What happens when I move back in? Will it slowly go back to me doing everything as it has the past 5 times? I will work on being less accessible. Good point.
2) I don't think it's anger. I think it's resentment. I feel like he took me for granted for many, many years. I am working w/ a C to try a few exercises to "let it go", such as writing out in detail past hurts and then, after pouring my heart onto paper, burning them while letting them go. We are working on these in baby steps = smaller hurts first.
3) I, too, am working on improving myself. My attitude is this - whether we get back together or not, I need to learn to let go and move on so that I do not carry these things into my future relationships. I want to feel good about myself. I have been reading (as time allows) about forgiving. I think it is helping ease the pain.
I am going to buy DR tonight and read it while working out. Then I am going to movie - just to relax and take my mind off things for a little bit.
I didn't think you were telling me I did anything wrong. What made you feel that way? I appreciate your honesty, your comments, your suggestions etc. I hope that you did not think I was getting defensive - I wasn't. I think I was just venting and letting it out???
That is my plan - to make changes. I think sometimes, a little guidance in what actions should be taken is helpful. Which is why I like your suggestion about a coach. I have actually began to do some things in order to accomplish a few of my personal goals, for myself.
I intend to keep chatting w/ anyone who wants to talk to me.
Gotta go for the night. I promised myself I'd stop at the bookstore to get DR and then off to the gym. I get enough disappoinments from life - I don't intend to add to them.
I'm sorry. I must have misread what you were saying, or how you said it. I am glad you are working on you. That is really the only thing that you can do. To get changes out of your H, you have to make changes to you and how you approach things. My only thing I was thinking is that I am not sure you know exactly what you want right now. It is hard to make goals and a plan of action when you don't know. If you want your H back, truly want him back, then you need to heal yourself, and then forgive him to get a true chance, IMO. Stubborndyke is right in that it has to be on your time. You have to make that decision and then follow through. I hope you were able to get the book. Michele's writing is easy on the eyes. She has an ease with her points that makes you want to keep going.
I have one to run by you. This exact wording is on my other thread. "Something kind of interesting happened today. I went over to pick up the kids to have dinner with them. W had a class. I thought she would already be gone by the time I called to get them. She answered. We talked about stepson's grades, lower than our expectations. Anyway, she mentioned a guy at school that is her friend. He is in an R with a woman who will jump on him and scratch him and go out and party with him at home and not let him go out. I was bad, but I was not as bad as that, at least I hope. They bought a new house together. W asked him why he would do that when he said something about only staying with his R because of the last house. He told my W that he stays because of his daughter. There was an awkward silence after she said that. Kind of stunned me, but I said nothing. I did not say so should we, or he was crazy. After a couple of seconds, she changed the subject. She was leaving as I arrived. She smiled and waved. " What do you think?
I know I go back and forth. I think it's mostly b/c I want to work things out w/ H b/c I still love him, but I am not seeing any results. So it's frustrating. I feel like he "says" he wants us to be together, but he's not doing anything to facilitate that.
I said before that I do see small changes, but they are changes that I have seen before, like helping around the house or being very loving. What has happened in the past is that after I am back 6 months to a year; it starts fading out again. Within a 1 1/2 years - it's back to the same old thing where he takes me for granted. I think I am afraid to take a chance that it will happen AGAIN. I can't keep doing this - it's way too hard on me emotionally.
I also feel like I am the only one working on our R - and I am the one who walked away!
About you question - I think she brought it up to get your reaction. Sort of testing you to see if you would agree with the other man and tell her that you two should work it out for the kids sake, etc. By not responding you did the right thing. I think she used that story to determine if you thought you should stay together for the kids. Now she doesn't know. She will have to discuss this specifically with you to get feedback. Plus, you didn't get angry - you kept the emotions in check. Very nice!
M
P.S. After driving to several bookstores looking for DR; I ended up finding 1 copy of DB instead. I bought that one and a few other self improvement books that caught my attention. Since I spent so much time trying to locate DR; I didn't get as much of a workout as I had hoped, but I did 30 minutes of cardio and read the beginning. I will start there and just order DR. Maybe give H DB when I finish it.
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I just had several comments.