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#409333 01/17/05 09:11 PM
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Hi all! I am new to this site, but I was hoping that someone had some advice that would help me.

I am the WAW, but I recently purchased the Marriage Breakthrough Videos. I was hoping that I would get a sign of whether we can make it work and I can be happy with him or to just "throw in the towel". However, after viewing the tapes, I am still undecided and confused. I feel like the tapes gave me HOPE, but yet, I don't believe it.

Let me start by sharing some history and asking my question(s)....

Our Past:
1) We have been together 15 years. We dated the first six years and have been married 9 years now. We do not have any children (other than our 2 adorable dogs : )). I have left 5 times in that 15 years; so it seems that every couple of years or so, I tell him I am unhappy. It falls on deaf ears and I end up leaving. Once I leave (moving in with family), he becomes the wonderful person that I fell in-love with (writing cards, sending flowers, etc.). The problem is that once he is comfortable that I am staying.... it's back to the old habits and patterns. Every time I have come back to him; it's been because of his persistence, the fact that I feel sorry for him or he just talks me into coming back by saying what he knows I want to hear. Frankly, I am tired of the cycle.

2) My H was (yes, past tense) a compulsive spender; often spending without any regard for my well-being. I was the one doing without so that he could have "things" (material things). He would hide, lie and deny his spending habits whenever I would confront him. He could and would lie to my face. I asked/begged him to go to counseling a few years ago. At that time, I was told that it was like living with an alcoholic - he had the same abusive behaviors, but only "money" addiction vs. substance addiction. They suggested that he go see someone for those issues. He didn't. His reasoning - we couldn't afford it. Ironic, isn't it?

3) I was often overwhelmed in our marriage. He would spend and I would figure out how to pay the bills. At one point, I would use one credit card to pay the minimum balance on another and often worried that we were at our limit. I took care of the finances, the house, the yard, etc. Occassionally, he would help, but for the most part I was on my own.
Recently:
Almost 2 years ago, I again told him I was unhappy. Nothing happened. So, I started going to counseling by myself about 6 months before I moved out. The counselor suggested I write the requirements for my "considering" staying in the marriage (actions he must do for me to stay). The top on my list was for him to get help with his spending, specifically he had to see a counselor who was familiar w/ obsessive-compulsive spending and money addicitions. I also asked him to join a support group (like AA, but for money issues). He went to see a counselor after MUCH persistance, but was adamant that he was not going to a support group. As usual, I gave in on that one and did not make him go. I was upset that the only reason he was going to counseling was b/c I told him if he didn't I was leaving. My counselor told me to "get over it"; that it mattered not why he went as long as he was getting help. Second on the list was for him to help me around the house, in the yard, and with the monthly bills (yes, I did give him specifics...just left them out due to my wordiness). He did start helping more, but I did not recieve it well. I felt like it was a last ditch effort to get me to stay.

My question(s):
I moved out to my own apartment 7 months ago, and although I was initially scared and afraid to be on my own I find that I have become independent and that I am much happier. However, I miss the companionship and the friiendship. He is "suddenly" willing to make permanent changes. He tells me that he now understands what I have been asking for and he is willing to do whatever. He is saying what I need to hear, but I don't believe it in my heart, even though I can see changes in him I am at the point where I don't care anymore. I feel like there is too much history and emotional hurts between us. When we do spend time together (without arguing about my coming back), we have a good time, but for me there is no romance. I do not have any desire to start an intimate relationship with him. Although I am ashamed to admit this, I find myself attracted "physically" to other men.

Therefore, I want to know....
1) How do I know when it's time to "throw in the towel" forever?
2) Is our relationship repairable when right now I don't think I will ever fully recover from past hurts?
3) What does it say that I am attracted to other men? Is this a sign that I have moved on or am ready to move on?
4) What does it say that I am happier living alone and supporting myself?

Cheers,
Michelle

#409334 01/17/05 09:47 PM
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Quote:

1) How do I know when it's time to "throw in the towel" forever?




Well, you sure started with the hard question. Nobody knows the answer to that one!

Quote:

2) Is our relationship repairable when right now I don't think I will ever fully recover from past hurts?




Anything is possible. Keep in mind that you may need to fully recover from those past hurts in order to have a good R with anyone in the future, whether H or someone else.

Quote:

3) What does it say that I am attracted to other men? Is this a sign that I have moved on or am ready to move on?




It's a sign that you have hormones just like everybody else. Hormones can be a lot of fun, but they're not very useful in helping with R-related decisions.

Quote:

4) What does it say that I am happier living alone and supporting myself?




I suspect it says a lot about how stressful it was to live with your H the way things were. I'm sure we can all agree that you'd be crazy to go back to the way things were. The challenge is to figure out how to make things better.

The fact that you're here and you purchased the Marriage Breakthrough videos indicates that you're hoping for that breakthrough. I haven't seen those videos, but I have read Divorce Remedy, which is the template for many of us here on the board. I'd encourage you to read that. I'm also curious to hear what got your attention in the videos and gave you hope (or at least something to relate to).


Me - 54
P - 59
Together 5 yrs
She left 4/2012
#409335 01/17/05 10:34 PM
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Thanks for the quick reply. Hmmmmmmmmm to answer your question about what in the videos gave me hope. Well, first let me start out with the fact that I am a hopeless romantic and never really wanted to let the dream of "happily ever-after" die.

It was a lot of things, but the following had the most impact. Michele said people can change when the truly understand the need for chnage. One of the things H says is that he finally "understands" - he gets it. It was the list of "action-oriented" solutions and not focusing on the problem or the past. It was actually sitting down and thinking about what actions make me feel loved and communicating them. And then thinking about what makes H feel loved. It was understanding that most of our issues lie in communication or lack thereof. I learned that my dog can communicate w/ me better than my H. I mean when my dogs want affection, they nuzzle me or jump in my lap.

I got HOPE from the tapes, but then when I talked to H yesterday we fought and I was ready to throw in the towel, yet again. I find that the thing we fight most about is me coming home. He tells me that if I would just give him and us another chance, things will be different. I agree; they will be different, but for how long? At the end of the day, I am wondering what would really be different if we haven't really resolved the issues to begin with and how can I move home when I still hurt? Every little thing he does that is somewhat similar to the past hurts, just brings back all the pain. it's not fair to him - to keep him walking on eggshells. And it's rough emotionally on me. I feel like we are at a check-mate.


What is a reasonable amout of time to be separated? How long is too long?

#409336 01/17/05 11:07 PM
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Michele,

Your sitch sounds similar to mine, just not with money. I have been emotionally abusive to my W for a long time, and did not realize it. I have been begging for another chance, but she cannot give it, maybe because she cannot trust it, and also maybe because she has hurt to get over. I moved out 2 days ago. I am in couseling. Never done that before. I am trying to show her the changes, but it is hard from afar. Although I desperately want another chance because I now understand what I was doing, and know I can be a better H, and love my W dearly, I know it is going to take time. It kills me to think that.

W and I are going on a date this Saturday. It is either going to be lunch and a movie, or dinner, movie and dancing (my idea). I am not going to push it, so it will probably be lunch and a movie. It is a baby step, but it gives us a chance to have fun together, and build some new good times (I hope). Maybe you and your H could start dating a little and spend some time together. Watch for his changes, and maybe over time you can start to trust the changes, and maybe not, that is up to the 2 of you. I am praying for good things for you and him.

#409337 01/18/05 01:25 AM
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If your H is so eager to work things out, is he willing to do what you ask? How about asking him to read DR? (That's a no-no when the shoe is on the other foot, but your H seems ripe for a little learning.) I think it would be very valuable for both of you, but it's particularly halpful in getting the pursuer to back off and give the WAW some space.

The basics you'll find in there are about listening and validating. No R talk when you're in an unhappy R spot. Learning the art of loving detachment. How to pay attention. How to ask for what you want.

If you read DR, I think you'll be able to have better interactions with H. If he reads it, he may quit driving you crazy and you'll definitely have better interactions.


Me - 54
P - 59
Together 5 yrs
She left 4/2012
#409338 01/18/05 05:53 PM
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Thanks for the suggestion. Yes, I think H does need to stop the R talk. I tell him that he pushes too hard for me to come back and it's really having the opposite effect. In the past, I have always returned to him once I started healing. I am not sure I ever really fully healed. I can't handle seeing him upset and hurting b/c of me! I am not sure I have ever really come back b/c it was what I wanted.

Now, I find that he has started this other thing. H breaks down and starts crying and carrying on to the point that most of the time I can't understand what he is saying and I am wondering why he is crying. Most of the time, when he starts this, he is re-acting to some comment I made about maybe we weren't meant to be together or that I am tired of trying so hard, etc.

It kills me to see and/or hear him crying - thus, I soften and weaken, which gives him hope. H continues the crying until I agree that there is a SLIGHT possibility we could work it out. The bad part is I am only telling him that to ease his pain and make him feel better. In my heart, I really think we are not right for each other. How should I deal w/ his "crying" behavior?

H was extremely rude to me when we met. Right from the beginning I thought he was an ass. Maybe I should have stuck with that first impression! There was never really any mutual attraction - instead H grew on me. It was his persistance of me that I finally went out with him. I finally said, "If I go out w/ you will you stop asking me out?". We went on a double date and had fun together. But that is how our entire relationship has been...he keeps asking, I say NO!, he keeps asking and finally I give in. And yes, I do feel like "I give in" and he wins; I lose.

We still have fun together when we go out provided we don't talk about our R (or any R for that matter). I feel we should be great friends, but not lovers. I have no desire to be with him intimately. If it weren't for being a collegestudent w/ raging hormones we may have never gotten together physically.

#409339 01/18/05 07:45 PM
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Michelle21,

I'm not sure your answers are very straightforward. Maybe in some sense you are the WAW, but you don't sound like you've completely given up on the marriage since you bought the tapes, etc and are asking for advice about your marriage. At least in that respect there is hope. You also seem to at least feel something for him still. You haven't erased all the good times and you still sympathize when he's crying/hurting. You also seem to have gotten on with your life. I don't think finding other men physically attractive is a sign that you've given up on your marriage. Only that you're human.

I agree with previous advice, your husband maybe needs to read DB. He's being very pushy and needy, which surprisingly has elicited sympathy from you rather than disgust as a typical WAW would show. I think he will need to put his money where his mouth is. I'm sure he knows what his problems are...his spending addiction, etc...and needs to work on him before he can genuinely work on the marriage to its fullest extent. If you come back to him without him actually proving he learned something from this I'm not sure how your marriage can be okay. Since your still willing to talk to him maybe you should explain that you need to see that he's changed before you can commit to resuming the relationship. Maybe the only encouragements you give him should be if you really approve of a change you see in him that's positive.

As for your question of can you ever trust and love him the way you did again, I think you can. If he's really changed the things that drove you away in the first place. It'll probably take time to feel the changes are permanent enough to feel safe in the R again. I wouldn't give up hope on it. I think if he's truly seen the light he should have sufficient motivation to change and keep it that way.

As you


You cannot be lonely if you like the person you're alone with. Dr. Wayne Dyer
#409340 01/18/05 08:57 PM
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Michelle -
thanks for posting here. hope you are finding it helpful. There are many of us on the other side of the coin who can probably learn a lot from you - and hopefully you from us. Of course, it probably wouldn't hurt if your H came here too. Sounds like he could use a DB primer.

I have a question for you on one of your comments:
Quote:

H was extremely rude to me when we met. Right from the beginning I thought he was an ass. Maybe I should have stuck with that first impression! There was never really any mutual attraction - instead H grew on me. It was his persistance of me that I finally went out with him. I finally said, "If I go out w/ you will you stop asking me out?". We went on a double date and had fun together. But that is how our entire relationship has been...he keeps asking, I say NO!, he keeps asking and finally I give in. And yes, I do feel like "I give in" and he wins; I lose.

We still have fun together when we go out provided we don't talk about our R (or any R for that matter). I feel we should be great friends, but not lovers. I have no desire to be with him intimately. If it weren't for being a collegestudent w/ raging hormones we may have never gotten together physically.




Did you always feel this way, or is this something you have decided recently as your R has gotten works and you have felt the need to move on? I ask this because I think when people are sad or depressed about something they tend to look interpret everything in a very negative fashion and lose sight of all that is good. Do you think there is some of this in your comments?

D


My thread: Stuck in Neutral
#409341 01/18/05 09:40 PM
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Gene_in_AR,

Thank you for your response. It is always nice to hear the male perspective.

H and I have tried dating, but he doesn't get it. Usually at the end of the date, but sometimes throughout the date, he tells me how much he wants me home, how he misses me, he loves me, etc. All are nice things to hear...unless you can't trust what he says and you are looking for actions; not words Therefore, I suggest to you that you go out and have fun w/ W. Enjoy each other, but do NOT talk about your R. I believe that will come with time...once she sees and believes the changes are real and permanent.

I do see changes and I am very proud of him, but he has always changed (briefly) to win me back in the past. I am not sure I can "trust" the changes I see. However, I do feel like we are making some progress...a few months ago, I couldn't stand to hear his voice. Now I can talk to him and sometimes I want to, but I am afraid he will start pressing me to discuss our R. When I tell him I am still hurting and I don't feel right about moving back until we can resolve some of the issues that drove me away - he gets ....um....depressed? I am not sure what happens, but his whole demeanor changes and he is no longer happy or fun.

I think time will heal us both! Let me know how the dating goes....remember - keep it fun and enjoyable. I sometimes forget that and find myself taking a stab at him.

M

#409342 01/18/05 10:02 PM
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Phoenixdeux,

I am the WAW, but you're right - I haven't completely given up. I am still hanging in there b/c 1) I want the dream of "happily ever-after", 2) I do still love him; I am just not happy living w/ him 3) H was my best friend in the beginning and 4) I feel like Divorce = failure.

I am definitely human...

I have tried explaining to him that I need resolutions and permanent changes before I can come back. He went to see a C for his money issues, while I was still there. A few sessions later he tells me that he is "cured" and has not gone back. He learned how to control his impulse to spend and that was it. I asked him to continue to work on communication skills; talk about what was going on with us; whatever to help him and ultimately us. I got nothing. He said he had nothing more to talk about and never went back. I moved out 4 months later. H did say that he would go to C w/ me after I moved.

I don't know that I can trust and love him the same b/c this is the 5th time I have left him for the same reasons. As I said before, he has always changed, but it was never permanent. It is because we have this pattern of me leaving and coming back to him - he knows that crying elicits sympathy and sometimes I think he does it to get invoke sympathy and pity from me. H knows I am a sucker for all living things and I can't stand to see needless suffering. I am one of those people who pick up the strays and bring them home, treat them like my own pets, posting posters until they find their owners or a new home.

M

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