Divorce/WAW due to my infidelity Part 2

[unchien]

the fact that I don't initiate conversations beyond greetings (a very positive "good morning!" etc.) has led to little conversation at all which I think that she believes means that I'm angry with her (i.e. feeds into her narrative that I sulk and turn mean when I'm mad). It's not that, and I honestly feel better than I've felt in months (not always, of course), but it seems like she's so stuck in her head that she can't imagine that she could be a contributor to the environment.

You can only control your own words and actions, not how your W decides to react or interpret them.

I had the exact same reaction from my W when I mostly stopped initiating convo's, and when I would "just leave" to go for a walk to clear my head. MWD writes in DR about experimenting with different things and then adjusting your approach based on the results, but I think this applies more when the MR's are pre-BD and in less dire situations. I think you are pretty much "Damned if you do, damned if you don't" on most of these approaches. So keep doing what feels good and stay focused on self-improvement. You have a long road ahead. From your posts I think rebuilding trust with your W, if that is going to happen, will take a very long time.

One completely arbitrary and skewed opinion I have is that all the "milestone" events during this process (BD, D filing, moving out, D closing) don't necessarily need to mean you adjust or change your approach. The danger is that often we are stuck in limbo for months or years, then there is a sudden sea change due to hitting some milestone event, and it is quite easy to feel the need to make a sudden change to one's approach out of desperation to stave off the next big event.

I know trust is a major issue in your sitch. Mine as well (for different reasons). I asked our MC "How can I rebuild trust?" and he said "That's not for me or your W to answer. You need to figure that out." Regardless of whether you R, I think it is really positive to work on rebuilding trust with your W. It will make you a stronger person. She has specifically told you to stop texting. But you will be interacting at least talking about money and D3. There are opportunities there to demonstrate integrity and trustworthiness.

Everything your W is doing (on her phone while you watch TV, triggered by little things, etc.) is exactly what my sitch was like the last 2-3 months. She was checked out of the MR, just going through the motions being pleasant as a roommate and that's about it. My sitch is different (trial S, I moved out), but what I can say is that I feel this huge sense of relief now that we live apart just having some time and space away from the daily grind. And I can see my W, when we do interact, seems less wound up and stressed. Your W seems like she's triggered by literally anything you do at the moment, so unfortunately the likely way for her to change her mindset is this change of scenery.

I can't remember - are you two still going to MC?

[crdcheck]

So when I read all of that I couldn't help but feel your desire to control. The fact that her phone use "bothers" you is on you! Why even discuss that. In our sitches, words are meaningless. This where you set a boundary........for YOU!

"When D3 is in bed, if W starts texting incessantly, I am going to tell her I am going out for a while and go hang at brothers."

So just do that, don't try to control her phone usage! Further, even if you do end up controlling that, do you think it will stop? Or will she go covert with it? She could be like my W and go into the bathroom for 2 hours so she could text freely with EAP. "Oh, my stomach is really upset. I kept feeling like I had to go!"

Just to be clear, I have no interest in trying to control her phone usage, it's just really grating when someone is hanging out with you and they are busy messaging other people. And if she doesn't want to hang out that's fine. It just feels like I'm being a d**k if I stop hanging out with her without an explanation. The other side is that I can try to ignore it but it really does drive me crazy (not just from her) and I don't want to be a grump (and I don't want it to hurt other conversations).

Same thing with the "in October to improve trust I was texting W every time I left/arrived somewhere which I continued to do even after she announced the divorce". Hmmmm really? Or was this your way of showing her what you require when she is out? crd, trying to control can take many forms. Manipulation. Threats. Guilt. Etc. I know how LBSs think about this because in my 2005 sitch I did the same thing. I gave all of my passwords for everything to my W. "Just wanted to be fully open with you." Remember, she is the one that had an EA in 2005.Admittedly, I was hoping in the spirit of building trust, she would reciprocate. She didn't.

Absolutely not. I cheated, not her. I had a documented plan for what I would do/not do (e.g. not going out to parties by myself, staying off of facebook) and, as far as I was concerned, until we weren't married or she told me otherwise I would follow the plan. The alternative was that she would assume that I was out hooking up or just looking for an excuse to not follow the plan (one of her pre-D criticisms has been any of my misses, e.g. if I forget to text right away). I'm not snooping, inquiring, trying to figure out what she's doing, etc.

So drop the rope. Stop trying to control. If she engages in things you can't handle, then get out and GAL!

I hear you and I get that this is part of DBing but please also understand that her issues with me are trust and a belief that I always put myself first, and if I just peace out without telling her why or refuse to eat dinner with her that aligns with that narrative - I have to strike the right balance.

[crdcheck]

I had the exact same reaction from my W when I mostly stopped initiating convo's, and when I would "just leave" to go for a walk to clear my head. MWD writes in DR about experimenting with different things and then adjusting your approach based on the results, but I think this applies more when the MR's are pre-BD and in less dire situations. I think you are pretty much "Damned if you do, damned if you don't" on most of these approaches. So keep doing what feels good and stay focused on self-improvement. You have a long road ahead. From your posts I think rebuilding trust with your W, if that is going to happen, will take a very long time.

Thanks, good to know that my sitch is not completely abnormal.

I know trust is a major issue in your sitch. Mine as well (for different reasons). I asked our MC "How can I rebuild trust?" and he said "That's not for me or your W to answer. You need to figure that out." Regardless of whether you R, I think it is really positive to work on rebuilding trust with your W. It will make you a stronger person. She has specifically told you to stop texting. But you will be interacting at least talking about money and D3. There are opportunities there to demonstrate integrity and trustworthiness.

Yep, agreed. I don't see the not-texting as indicating that I have no options in the future but it certainly reduces it.

Everything your W is doing (on her phone while you watch TV, triggered by little things, etc.) is exactly what my sitch was like the last 2-3 months. She was checked out of the MR, just going through the motions being pleasant as a roommate and that's about it. My sitch is different (trial S, I moved out), but what I can say is that I feel this huge sense of relief now that we live apart just having some time and space away from the daily grind. And I can see my W, when we do interact, seems less wound up and stressed. Your W seems like she's triggered by literally anything you do at the moment, so unfortunately the likely way for her to change her mindset is this change of scenery.

Honestly, I'm looking forward to having the house sold so we can get that space. I'm feeling ok in general now that I'm not concerning myself with ensuring that I do nothing wrong in her mind but it's clear that she's not and, if we are to R, it won't be while she's upset. I wish that she were open to a trial separation for a variety of reasons - I think that she will hold my post-D behavior against me (she's really judgmental).

I can't remember - are you two still going to MC?

We were seeing one to be able to discuss coparenting but I don't think she's a fan so I'm leaving it up to her as to whether we continue or not. No pressure.

[unchien]

crd - Re: trust building. The October documented plan was a great start, but in real life things are not that concrete and easy to implement. Simply saying what you will do, then doing what you said, is a great way to start. "I will pick up D3 at 4pm" - be there on time.

You've also mentioned your W complained you always put your needs first. Do you agree with her, or find some grain of truth in what she says?

Whether or not it's fair or unfair for her to distrust you, or accuse you of selfishness, I think there is value regardless of the outcome of your MR to find the truth in what she says, and think about what you can change for your future relationships (including R if that opportunity arises).

Note I am *not* saying her truth is more valid than yours. A lot of this process is sorting out what is yours, and what is not.

I agree on your approach to MC. Leave it up to her.

[crdcheck]

crd - Re: trust building. The October documented plan was a great start, but in real life things are not that concrete and easy to implement. Simply saying what you will do, then doing what you said, is a great way to start. "I will pick up D3 at 4pm" - be there on time.

Yep, will do. I follow through on my commitments but not always 100% - maybe I didn't text as soon as I got to a friend's house. Interpretation is that I don't care rather than an honest slip. Anything less than 100% is unacceptable with W. But no excuses, and no reason to give up, even if we don't have a relationship.

You've also mentioned your W complained you always put your needs first. Do you agree with her, or find some grain of truth in what she says?

Whether or not it's fair or unfair for her to distrust you, or accuse you of selfishness, I think there is value regardless of the outcome of your MR to find the truth in what she says, and think about what you can change for your future relationships (including R if that opportunity arises).

I absolutely agree with her that the examples she cites could be seen as me just doing what I want. Where we disagree is a) in the why and b) whether I always do it or is she ignoring the bigger picture. As to "a" she says that I'm a narcissist who doesn't care about her. The (well, my) reality is that I did all kinds of things for her, asked and unasked, and never got feedback as to what was valuable vs what wasn't, which areas where I resisted and she didn't care vs. areas where she was really upset. So, she could say that she wants to eat Thai tonight and I could say "eh, I had it at lunch, why don't we do Mexican" and she could think (but not say) that it's an example of me not caring about her, that she wants to eat healthier and I just think about what I want. But if I say "hey, sure, I mean, I had Thai for lunch but I love it so fine, let's do it" it's not noticed.

Between October and shortly after the D announcement I yielded to her on just about everything unless I let myself get triggered (e.g. if she wanted me to take D3 to the doctor and I had done that last two appointments, she would say that her work is "higher stakes" than mine and I let that set me off rather than listening to her view and expressing how hurtful that comment is to me). Since detaching I know that she sees me as not caring as much about her because I'm not automatically deferring.

[crdcheck]

So had a bad night last night. We'd agreed that last night I would go out, she would stay home, and tonight she goes out and I stay home. I went out with a mutual friend (male, reliable) for a happy hour and then a college alumni event that happened to be at a restaurant a half block from my house. Got home at 9:30 PM or so, no issues. W shared some stories from the evening (nice! she chose to converse on her own).

Problem was when she said that she found an apartment and said that she could move in August 1st. She made it sound like she'd essentially signed an agreement and this was contrary to the discussion we'd had the night before (that we would make no large financial commitments without running by each other and that we wouldn't move out prior to documenting our property and financial separation approach along with custody with our mediator). I have intense anxiety about this whole thing because I'm worried that she will do something that she feels is justified and then I'm left either just taking it or going the litigation route. Anyway, I don't think that I used the wrong words with her (no cursing, no accusations, no "kitchen sink" items) but my tone was terrible, accusatory, and she got upset and stormed out. My reaction definitely fit with her narrative that I'm negative and probably came across as controlling.

So, what I should have done is to say "It sounds great that you found a place that works. This is a lot for me to digest, it's late (we have an agreement to not have serious conversations after 9 PM), and I've had a few drinks - can we talk about this tomorrow? I feel like there are some open items we need to work through before signing anything". Obviously I can't go back and do it the "right" way but I did apologize this morning, explained that my reaction was not what it should have been. W thanked me.

[unchien]

crd - Good on you for analyzing how you could have approached it differently. We all make mistakes, mistakes are learning opportunities.

Can you please add a signature to your posts? I can't remember if D is filed, or if you are just separating for now.

It is entirely reasonable to want to document the financial, property and custody approach prior to actually separating. Bring it up next time in mediation. Also think about what level of documentation you require, and how much you trust your W to hold to the agreement. Your W may have a different idea of what "documenting our approach" actually means.

[crdcheck]

Can you please add a signature to your posts? I can't remember if D is filed, or if you are just separating for now.

Done! Though right now I'm not seeing any signatures for some reason.

Feel like I'm sliding back a bit today. Everything was fine, we both did our own thing last night (W went to sister-in-law's, my side, for dinner) so I was home w/ D3, did some research on different home options, etc after she went to bed. Slept great (which is notable because when I get stressed about this I find myself waking up at 3-4 in the morning and struggling to get back to sleep). This morning was fine, too. But then I was having a 1:1 w/ a colleague at work and she mentioned that she sat next to W at a meeting (we work at the same company, I joined just a month before the D announcement so that I would be off the road, focusing my my family) and that kind of hit me - we are going to be intertwined for. ever. And not just for a few events here and there (not that that's nothing) but our work overlaps significantly. I will see her at least every other day and we will likely be in meetings together soon.

So, feeling sad at the moment where I didn't before. Like, we have so much in common, we have the same friends, colleagues, daughter, approach to finances, interest in travel, etc.etc. etc. and that's all going away. And there will be daily reminders. Not sure that I'm looking for advice, just felt like sharing. But if anyone has anything I'm listening.

[SteveLW]

Can you please add a signature to your posts? I can't remember if D is filed, or if you are just separating for now.

Done! Though right now I'm not seeing any signatures for some reason.

You must be on a smartphone. To see them on smartphones, turn the phone sideways.

Feel like I'm sliding back a bit today. Everything was fine, we both did our own thing last night (W went to sister-in-law's, my side, for dinner) so I was home w/ D3, did some research on different home options, etc after she went to bed. Slept great (which is notable because when I get stressed about this I find myself waking up at 3-4 in the morning and struggling to get back to sleep). This morning was fine, too. But then I was having a 1:1 w/ a colleague at work and she mentioned that she sat next to W at a meeting (we work at the same company, I joined just a month before the D announcement so that I would be off the road, focusing my my family) and that kind of hit me - we are going to be intertwined for. ever. And not just for a few events here and there (not that that's nothing) but our work overlaps significantly. I will see her at least every other day and we will likely be in meetings together soon.

So, feeling sad at the moment where I didn't before. Like, we have so much in common, we have the same friends, colleagues, daughter, approach to finances, interest in travel, etc.etc. etc. and that's all going away. And there will be daily reminders. Not sure that I'm looking for advice, just felt like sharing. But if anyone has anything I'm listening.

Meh. There are more jobs out there. If it becomes a problem find another job. You will be coparents for the next several decades. You only have to be coworkers if you choose to be.

[unchien]

Feel like I'm sliding back a bit today. Everything was fine, we both did our own thing last night (W went to sister-in-law's, my side, for dinner) so I was home w/ D3, did some research on different home options, etc after she went to bed. Slept great (which is notable because when I get stressed about this I find myself waking up at 3-4 in the morning and struggling to get back to sleep). This morning was fine, too. But then I was having a 1:1 w/ a colleague at work and she mentioned that she sat next to W at a meeting (we work at the same company, I joined just a month before the D announcement so that I would be off the road, focusing my my family) and that kind of hit me - we are going to be intertwined for. ever. And not just for a few events here and there (not that that's nothing) but our work overlaps significantly. I will see her at least every other day and we will likely be in meetings together soon.

So, feeling sad at the moment where I didn't before. Like, we have so much in common, we have the same friends, colleagues, daughter, approach to finances, interest in travel, etc.etc. etc. and that's all going away. And there will be daily reminders. Not sure that I'm looking for advice, just felt like sharing. But if anyone has anything I'm listening.

crd - Part of the grieving process. Sit with it, there's no way around it other than going through it. Try not to catastrophize your thinking, just experience the feelings, but don't wallow. Anger, sadness, anxiety, worry, all of it. My W communicated the BD in June but I really knew in March -- I'm 3-4 months in and still grieving but in a much better place. For awhile every day I would experience 2-3 episodes of intense grief at random times, it was rough. It gets better.