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#2852747 06/12/19 09:06 PM
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Short MC update it’s late and I’m exhausted:

- W wants to try a 6 month trial separation where I move out. Including continued MC.
- W said she was surprised I wanted to stay married.
- W said she needs space from me and my emotional issues for awhile.

We talked after MC and dug into a lot of other stuff. I mostly listened and validated and appreciated the feedback. I haven’t determined what I think about all this right now.

Lots to think about more tomorrow.

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U,

Obviously lot's to think about. Right out of the gate she's not being honest. Her being surprised you still want be married is manipulation to shift blame. After 3 letters she knows where you stand.

You're kind of in a tough spot right now. I will give you my opinion based on how I see this playing out.

If she really wanted to work on the marriage you would attend MC while living together.

If you don't agree to this she most likely files for divorce.

If you do she most likely cake eats while she gets her ducks in a row a says "we tried".

The DB alpha move would be to tell her that you understand that she feels you need to separate but you are not leaving your kids and the house. If she wants to move out you will not stand in her way. You would like to remain living together and work collaboratively with MC to fix your marriage.

From what I know about you U your mind is going to be spinning based on her statement " I'm surprised you still want to be married". All part of her master plan.

Think about you as being the captain of the Titanic and you just hit the iceberg. You going to try to get a seat on the life boat or are you going to dig your heals in and go down with your ship.

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Originally Posted by unchien
Short MC update it’s late and I’m exhausted:

- W wants to try a 6 month trial separation where I move out. Including continued MC.
- W said she was surprised I wanted to stay married.
- W said she needs space from me and my emotional issues for awhile.

We talked after MC and dug into a lot of other stuff. I mostly listened and validated and appreciated the feedback. I haven’t determined what I think about all this right now.

Lots to think about more tomorrow.


Hey U -

I'm sorry you're in this position, but it actually could have been way worse. Perhaps that's little consolation, but I'm all about trying to be as positive as possible.

I would caution that these statements were what she felt in that particular moment, and are not concrete unshifting entities. This took me a long time to figure out in my sit and it is why I was so puzzled by W's sudden shifts in topic and emotions.

One of the reasons I was advocating for no MC was because this was a temp check. That's ok though, at least you know where you stand right now, and you know what to apply in order to protect yourself.

Stay strong, man smile

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Up in the middle of the night here, more bits and pieces. Rambling. This is a disjointed mess typed on my phone in the middle of the night so it will mostly sound nonsensical and disorganized.

At MC office W went right into the abuse narrative. She doesn’t trust me. Emotionally. I believe at face value she does not trust me and needs space. I pressed how we could rebuild trust if We are not living together. I’ll have to post more later on this.

W and I talked later at home. The way we should have talked the last several months. She was really hurt when I stopped IC for a month awhile ago in February. I just can’t type everything out on mobile now. It wasn’t all negative. She said she prefers we stay married and work this out more than anything but she just needs some space. She stressed she does not want to take the kids away. I said I need some time and space to consider all this.

I feel like I have limited options here. I can accept separation and we work out a schedule where I see the kids most days. She’s on board. We continue to go to MC - something I made clear as a requirement in this case. No dating. I told her complete honesty, we need to stop the mind reading. If either of us (if I accept this) wants out then we say it.

Or we divorce. W said she has no interest in a legal battle. I said neither do I but if you claimed full custody we would be in a legal battle. And if we divorce I don’t think IHS in the short term is workable anyways. Too much tension for our kids. I won’t have it.

Honestly if I step back... if I maintain my custody rights (I.e. W cannot claim that by separating it changed things) then whether we divorce or try this separation my life will look very similar in the short term.

I know the advice here is going to be to stay in the house. I know my head is spinning because so much was discussed. And I should not take it at 100% face value. But I will end up getting served.

W was very coy about what she wanted until the MC pressed her and she asked for separation. She acted as if she was open to me proposing drastic changes that would not require separation although couldn’t really say what those were. I think she’s confused and just wants space. Or it’s a soft way to D me eventually. It doesn’t matter - I need to think about what’s best for me.

Lots to think about... trying to center myself and think what do I want? Now that W has spoken to me for the first time in 3 months, do I have faith? Can this be fixed for both of us? She was clear... she does not trust me. My stance is... if she can’t trust me there is no “us”. I am willing to work on it if I see commitment from her, commitment meaning going to MC and listening to me and showing me that she also is committed. I’m so guarded right now though.

My instinct is always to cave. Right now my instinct is to work out a reasonable separation agreement and just do it. And if I feel the M is completely lost then I can just file. Right now it feels pretty lost. The momentary euphoria of actual communication happening has waned - I know it’s common for things to seem better post BD because the WAS is relieved.

One of the weirdest pieces is that W mentioned being hurt again by my distance lately. That I don’t ask about her and about the kids. I had to bite my tongue while thinking she rarely asks me how I’m doing. But hey... this was amazing feedback and I told her I appreciated that. I had no clue. My GALing has her super confused.

It’s so easy to get sucked into her head. There is value in understanding her narrative, even for my personal growth. She wants me to be there for her consistently, ask about her day. What I want from her? Commitment to MC and working on communication and treating me as an equal parent.

It’s all a mess because it’s mostly my fault in her head. Or I should be more clear... things I did eroded her trust in me. She is not sure I can regain her trust. When she did trust me in our M, yes we both were happy.

So much confusion. I need to let things settle so I can think clearly. Right now I’m not seeing things clearly. I don’t think living together right now would be healthy, so it’s mostly a question (to me) of what is best for the kids. Unfortunately with our FT/SAH split it makes no sense for me to stay and W to move out.

We agreed for our upcoming anniversary our gift to each other would be committing to our relationship (M S or D) for the sake of the kids. We may go grab a drink somewhere nothing fancy.

I have a week (until next MC session) to think and post so Hopefully my successive posts will be more clear and focused.

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U,

I can tell you a six month separation is not going to work in your favor. With your anxiety it is just prolonging your limbo. She gets the best of both worlds in living alone and you paying for everything. Feelings only change with time and space (usually 1.5 to 2 years) and or feeling a loss. Neither happen in a six months separation.

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Uni I'm willing to bet an article, or the MC pushed the idea of a 6 mo. trial seperation. W goes looking for justification, or solution, MC reccomends it. W secretly goes "Hey that's a great idea." It further justifies her actions. Whether she is actually using it to cement her position, or she actually needs the time and space to emotionally figure things out is irrelevant. Give her as much space as you can afford, give her the whole universe of space as far as I an concerned. Then when she asks.. "Why are you so distant and not paying any attention to me?" Just tell her like it is. "I thought you wanted, and was taking your're space, so I am giving it to you. LH19 is spot on his assessment. She is staging to get her ducks in a row to plan out how to seperate, who moves, where to go, what to do, how to live, etc. Post S or D.

Here is a thought. Something that dawned on me last night after reading a few other situations here as well as my own introspectiveness, and mental states during therapy. FlySolo kind of got me onto this. (Shout out) If you step back far enough to relax and see things for what they are, rather than what your perception is or what the other person's perception is. You will see things a lot clearer. Wolfy here mentioned too, how it's silly how some people leave their marriages because someone didn't do the dishes enough for someone didn't pay enough attention to someone or someone left a pile of clothes in the corner. Yada yada... it sounds silly as a reason and justification for leaving. But what I think is actually going on and why people leave for these reasons is because of the double standards between two people. Or not seeing the change that we want in the other person is what causes either to leave.

Where I'm going with this for you it is... If W says "I am surprised that you want to stay married" she most likely is projecting her own thoughts and beliefs and perceptions not yours. She does clearly know where you stand by your previous letters. I would suggest challenging those kind of statement like an MC would. DONT ARGUE WITH IT. DONT DEBATE IT, ABD DONT TAKE THE BAIT IN EXPLAINING YOURSELF , or why you think your perception is different or right from hers. Just listen to it, nod, and smile. Only if and when you catch her making these kind of statements. I would challenge her thought process on it. I would ask her specifically why she thinks, or what gave the impression perception or incident, that recently made her think that? Find out what it is, nod and smile, thank her for revealing such if you want, write it down and walk away. If you wants you to better yourself for a 180. But I'm willing to bet most likely she's going to be projecting them and blame-shifting a lot of her perception of what she thinks of you and why. She has an end goal and that's to get away from you. The more you take the bait in discussion of why. The more it cements and validated her justification. While you are at it as good practice try and challenge your own thoughts and beliefs and what are they add up to reality. I know that we all have tend to have convoluted thinking going through all of this with our emotions, and sometimes they don't stack up to reality unless someone's challenges us. We have to go about a different way of thinking about things sometimes to see improvements in ourselves and change.

I think that they have to slowly realize on their own, without you or anyone else telling them, Is that their perceptions and feelings are being misled and are skewed and your actions have to demonstrate such over a long period of time. They are in fight or flight mode most likely fligh're

Last edited by IHCLACS; 06/13/19 12:21 PM.
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U, just take some time to process it all, it's a lot to handle all at once like that. I would not under any circumstances leave the home. That should be a non-negotiable point in my opinion. She's trying to make you out to be the bad guy, but she is the one that wants to wreck the marriage. She should be the one inconvenienced by her actions, not you. I've seen so many LBS's leave the home and they are living on someone's couch, or in a basement, or in a crappy little apartment while the WAS is living it up in the family home with the kids and sometimes even OM right there under the same roof. The WAS will not respect you more for leaving, she will respect you LESS.

Originally Posted by LH19
The DB alpha move would be to tell her that you understand that she feels you need to separate but you are not leaving your kids and the house. If she wants to move out you will not stand in her way. You would like to remain living together and work collaboratively with MC to fix your marriage.


^^^This^^^

Originally Posted by unchien
I feel like I have limited options here. I can accept separation and we work out a schedule where I see the kids most days. She’s on board. We continue to go to MC - something I made clear as a requirement in this case. No dating. I told her complete honesty, we need to stop the mind reading. If either of us (if I accept this) wants out then we say it.


You can and should choose to stay put, keep the kids there and let her move out if that's what she wants so bad. DON'T HELP HER. Also do not continue to go to MC, she's officially a WAS now and the ONLY reason she'll keep going is to check it off her list of "things I did to save the M but only proved it really was over". As far as the no dating rule, don't expect her to honor that. If I had a dollar for every time a WAS has agreed to that and then had an A anyway I'd be driving a lambo.

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W said she has no interest in a legal battle.


What she means is "give me exactly what I want because I don't want to have to fight for it."

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I know the advice here is going to be to stay in the house. I know my head is spinning because so much was discussed. And I should not take it at 100% face value. But I will end up getting served.


If you're going to get served then it's inevitable, it will not be because you took a stand to stay in the house.

It's time to change your mindset. She's not your loving W that you need to buy flowers for to soothe an argument. She's a full-blown WAS. You've done enough research to know what that means and what you should do and not do. Take some time to absorb this and then get to work.


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The "no dating during seperation" is her trying to control you. Don't agree or disagree to it. Just listen, nod, and leave it where it is.

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Uni it makes every bit of sense for you to stay. Granted the limbo and the in-house separation is going to make you emotionally screwy. But you have to get comfortable with yourself with it. You have to get comfortable with being quiet to yourself and around her. Almost stoic. It makes sense for you to stay because you are not the one who's leaving she is. Everyone here is right they try to push us out of their lives so that they can stage and benefit from it don't allow it. People who leave do exactly that they leave they don't tell you to leave because they want to leave. Its manipulation. Completely blaming you for all the problems in the marriage is also manipulation. it's also a double standard and they won't see any of this even if you tell them out right. They have to realize it on their own through time and space. Just don't allow them to manipulate you.

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Unchien,

You are getting some very good advice here already so I won't repeat all the same things, but I agree 100% with AS. At one point my EW proposed an 8 week separation, but it was BS that the MC had suggested, and she had no intention of staying in the MR. I think it can also be seen as a way of letting you down gently rather than all at once.

I was very lucky in that I moved out of the house right after BD, but was able to get back into the house 4 months later. My EW, for all of her defects, was a woman of her word, plus she felt/feels extremely guilty about destroying the MR. However, that is a rare case, and I think it would be even more unlikely to happen with children involved. No matter what, you should stay put - not because it will or won't help you salvage the MR, but because it is the best thing for you and the children. She might file right away, she might linger in the house for a long time in IHS, or she might move out. But that's all on her, not you.


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The no dating thing is my rule if we separate. We didn’t even discuss it yet. I doubt it will be an issue.

I recognize that separation is also firing me as her H. If I accept it under whatever terms, I also need to NOT act as if this 6 month period is to “save” my marriage.

I need time to process everything honestly. Some separations end in reconciliation. It’s impossible to know if mine would. Most don’t. I know this. But predicting the fate of mine is basically impossible. If I felt “oh this is just a soft divorce” then I would say let’s just file and get on with it.

It is a crappy position. It’s all on me right now. She did not take any ownership other than agreeing (reluctantly) that our communication is awful. The MC kept pointing this out to her. I told my W last night regardless of our outcome this has to be addressed for our kids sake. I was assertive in a way I haven’t been before.

Anyways... the advice to let her walk and keep the house is the same to me as filing for D. She self identifies as having PTSD for past abuse. Me insisting I stay in the house is going to be unhealthy for me, my kids, and her. The past few months have been enough.

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OK well it is 2x4 time...

Originally Posted by unchien
Some separations end in reconciliation. It’s impossible to know if mine would. Most don’t. I know this. But predicting the fate of mine is basically impossible.


I sense that you are trying to justify to yourself that accepting her terms and leaving is the right thing because you think there might be a ray of hope that it will save your M. YOU ARE WRONG. Sorry to be so blunt, but you are very hard-headed. You get advice from multiple people who have walked your road and are the wiser for it, and you continue to say "oh but my situation is different and requires different action." This is what you did regarding MC, and it's what you're doing now regarding S. Your situation is absolutely, positively NOT different. If you leave your wife is going to laugh at how wimpy of a pushover you are, mark my words.

Quote
Anyways... the advice to let her walk and keep the house is the same to me as filing for D.


NO IT'S NOT. It's you saying "whatever you do is your choice, but I am not helping." I'm a little perplexed that you don't seem to understand this. You are just staying, nothing more. You tell her you wish she would stay and work on the M but if she chooses to leave you won't stop her. SHE IS THE ONE THAT LEAVES. If she says "fine then I'm filing for D" then rest assured, that was her plan all along anyway. But she knows if she moves out and files for D it puts her in a difficult position in court, whereas if YOU leave then she's in a much better position to keep the home and gain primary custody of the kids.

IF YOU LEAVE YOU WILL REGRET IT IN WAYS YOU CAN'T IMAGINE RIGHT NOW.

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Me insisting I stay in the house is going to be unhealthy for me, my kids, and her. The past few months have been enough.


She is brainwashing you. Wake up man.


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You did the MC. You got it done. You got your answers and folks here have helped you decode it. Now is the time for getting your ball$ back together. Time for decisive action and not worrying about consequences. I co-sign everything AS has just said in the post above. The worst scenario is that she'll D you. But you knew that all along. You can't nice her back. You can't make her change her mind. She is trying to let you down slowly. You go this path, you will have another year or more of agony. Make decisive moves now and move ahead with your life. Go re-read what I wrote about Txhubby. I wish he was still around to give his take, but he suffered for 2 years before he woke up. You have the chance right now to not go through that. Just make a decision to stay in the house, communicate it to her, and let her figure it out.


No one is coming to save you!

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People don't separate with the intentions of saving or working on their marriage. They separate with the intentions of getting a Divorce and if during that period it doesn't work out for them then they might return. They also don't move out with 3 small kids either. What woman in their right mind, that wants to save their marriage does this????? None that I can think of.

The only thing she is trying to do is to extricate herself from the situation with least amount of guilt and drama as possible.


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M: 46, W: 45. D: 10. D: 8 (CUR)
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^^^^^^^ another co-sign with what J said.


No one is coming to save you!

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U,

It’s a soft divorce. Remember she already thinks your fragile. Show her she’s wrong and that you are strong and you won’t leave your children and surrender your castle.

If you leave that house the only time you will see the inside of the house again will be as a visitor. Again, if she was working on the marriage she wouldn’t ask you to leave.

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Lots of good feedback here Uni. I think the MC has officially taken you out of limbo and confirmed what was already suspected.

You have a lot of good advice from others already. At this point you need to take a step back and look at the situation for its reality.

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Originally Posted by unchien
We continue to go to MC - something I made clear as a requirement in this case.


I am curious why you made going to MC as a requirement? The first session made sense because it provided clarity and took you out of limbo. You said she did not take any responsibility in this session, so wondering what's the point?




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Uni. I know you're not going to see it this way but right now you are at the starting line and you are in a prime position to set some new precedences, from our mistakes. I lacked consistency and follow through with my behaviors words and actions in the last 8 months. You are going in a prime position to demonstrate that by your actions and not your words rigut now. I got to the point where there was so much communication issues, manipulation, and emotional instability, that I just said F@$! It! I'm not going to talk to wife at all unless it's about our son, and is only going to be done through email only, avoiding any emotional topics. Yeah I still talk to her but I don't go out on my way for it anymore at all. Not the best approach, but it gives her space and it gives me sanity.

I confirm today that W is depressed with herself and sich, and is looking on working on that with IC to find activities and purpose while single mom, seperated, and work on self esteem, and is conflicted with herself about the whole thing, according to a IC document I saw left out on table. She doesn't know if I broke her or she doesn't know she's broken, or what could be a combination of both? PTSD, EMOTIONAL ABUSE, BLAME AND GUILT SHIFTING. While it may have some validity, I didn't break her, and its not my job to fix her or her perceptions. But empathize with it. But it is my job to either change my behaviors or not demonstrate the bad ones at all.

I'm trying to say here she's probably second-guessing herself on whether it's her, or whether it's you? They will most likely say that they are only reacting to you which is partly true. You could even say the same thing that you are only reacting to her and the situation. So what do you do? Remove all reactivity and situations that may prompt such for now.

Like LH19 said. She thinks you are fragile, unreliable, independable, and emotionally insecure. PROVE HER WRONG! Like Nails also said. Make a decision to stay in the house.Communicate it calmly and even temoered, and let her figure out the rest for herself. Like AS also said. She knows that if she moves out it's going to put her in a difficult decision in court, as well as her own well being financially. She knows she needs time to stage all of this which is the whole purpose of the 6-month trial separation. She is staging to buy herself more time to get away from you. you are not stopping her and you are not controlling her and you are not manipulating her. She's free to do as she pleases but you are sticking to your guns and staying in the house and the MBR. You are protecting yourself your home your castle and your kids.

You have to get used to not engaging in any dramatic behavior. You have to get used to being comfortable with the silence between you and her. You have to get comfortable with any move she makes on incremental basis away from you and the marriage.

When you stand your ground on these things she's going to try to Gaslight you, make you feel guilty, and manipulate you into giving in to achieve her end goal. They won't realize that that they are doing this, and are being manipulative what they are. They feel like they are owed some kind of suffrage for putting up with you. What they want is to not only get away from you but either keep the house and the children, or push you out if it, or even like in my case, sell it to not only get away from you, but make a gain from it to start a new life. and they try to get you to agree to it on their terms. By all means pay for your kids and take care of them. Ill input more later W just pulled up in driveway.

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MLCxH - this MC focuses on communication. I was impressed with him calling out our communication issues. We need to resolve those for our kids sake whether or not we stay married.

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Originally Posted by unchien
The no dating thing is my rule if we separate. We didn’t even discuss it yet. I doubt it will be an issue.


Won't be an issue because you have no way to enforce it.

Her: "Okay I won't date while we are separated."

Later.......

You: "I found out you've been dating! That is a violation of our agreement."
Her: "Oh, oops."

You are trying to control her. That is pressure. It will be your undoing.

If it isn't an issue, then don't put that in the separation agreement.

Last edited by Steve85; 06/13/19 05:45 PM.

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Forget about saving your marriage Uni. There is absolutely nothing you can do to save it at this time. They have to want to save it on their own volition and choice. How do you achieve that? Simple. Give her so much space that she has to question her own thoughts and actions over a period of two years seperated. Be consistent. Positive, negative (as little as possible.) Or indifferent. Minimize emotional interactions as much as possible, unless she brings them up. Stand your ground and don't allow yourself to be manipulated, whether intentional or unintentional. Challenge your perceptions and beliefs and hers, if the situstion arises. Step back from yourself and be an observer in all this. Remove your attachment. Make concise logical decisions in what is best for you and kids. Go out and GAL. Try to subdue compulsive thinking. Meditate. The mind is a tool and will go crazy looking for solutions we don't have the answers to until it finds what it wants. Rest it and the thoughts and the clairity and peace will follow. Accept as much of the present as you can handle. Make peace with the whole sich. Make peace with yourself. Let her go, and let the old you go. Avoid denial. It just keeps us stuck longer, think if other ways you can better cope and be more grounded emotionally. Go for a walk. Do anything to interrupt your mind. If your body is not moving, your mind most likely is. Make your improvements a conscious habit for 28 days. Anything else I can think of that will help I will add.

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So many responses and my mind is spinning. I appreciate all the 2x4's guys I really do.

Re: the house - if we D, it has to be sold. We can't afford the mortgage if we split income.

I only have 2 points right now:

1. I absolutely agree my W and I need space from each other. IHS will not work. So either I stay in the house or she does, or we do some nesting arrangement. Even if one of us filed for D, I would say we need to separate immediately. For my own emotional well-being.

So the question is who stays in the house, and who leaves. You guys don't need to tell me your advice at this point, I got it smile

2. My W is incredibly confused. She clearly thinks this is my fault. She also has conflicted feelings. That doesn't mean I have hope we can turn it around, but she is not 100% out the door. She said some odd things that indicate she is incredibly conflicted, and I don't think she said these things "for effect." Or she could be full of s@#$. I have to decide whether or not I think things could turn around and whether I want to go through that process knowing it likely won't happen.

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My XW moved out 3 weeks after BD and I helped her financially. It was worth every penny to not live under the same roof with someone that didn't want to be with me. I was not going to do in house separation for 3 months while she got her ducks in a row. I have no regrets and it had no bearing on whether or not she returned to the marriage.

YOU have to do what is best for YOU!

If you moved out of your house tomorrow would you be able to emotionally handle her bringing men into your home?


Married 14, Together 17
M: 44, W: 43, D: 8, D: 6
M: 46, W: 45. D: 10. D: 8 (CUR)
Bomb Dropped: 5/28/2017
Separation Date: 6/17/2017
Divorce Filed: 2/7/2018
Divorce Final: 4/12/2018
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I understand the emotion, the feeling that you absolutely need to get out of the toxic environment of living with someone who has already checked out on the relationship. It is brutal. However, you are giving your W all the power here by agreeing that IHS won't work. You can't control her. You can't make her leave the house, so you are going to let her stay so that you can escape the emotional burden. But that also means that you are leaving YOUR house, leaving your kids, because SHE doesn't want to be married or is confused, or whatever other BS emotion she is feeling at this moment. You are taking away the natural consequences of her actions and letting her enjoy the fruits of the MR (house, kids) while also walking away from the actual MR. Of course she is going to push for that, and do whatever it takes to push you out so she gets it. It's not just a question of fairness or being in the right, it is going to make your life materially worse to have to move from your home, away from your children.

Don't let your emotions make this decision for you. I did, and I regret it. Take the time to really consider what is best for you and your kids (forget about the MR for now) going forward.


W 34 Me 42
Married 7 years together 8
0 kids 1 beloved dog
BD 4/6/2018
I moved out 4/7/2018
I moved back in alone 8/05/2018
I file 3/06/2019
D official 5/7/2019
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Originally Posted by IHCLACS
I confirm today that W is depressed with herself and sich, and is looking on working on that with IC to find activities and purpose while single mom, seperated, and work on self esteem, and is conflicted with herself about the whole thing, according to a IC document I saw left out on table. She doesn't know if I broke her or she doesn't know she's broken, or what could be a combination of both? PTSD, EMOTIONAL ABUSE, BLAME AND GUILT SHIFTING. While it may have some validity, I didn't break her, and its not my job to fix her or her perceptions. But empathize with it. But it is my job to either change my behaviors or not demonstrate the bad ones at all.

I'm trying to say here she's probably second-guessing herself on whether it's her, or whether it's you? They will most likely say that they are only reacting to you which is partly true. You could even say the same thing that you are only reacting to her and the situation. So what do you do? Remove all reactivity and situations that may prompt such for now.

Like LH19 said. She thinks you are fragile, unreliable, independable, and emotionally insecure. PROVE HER WRONG! Like Nails also said. Make a decision to stay in the house.Communicate it calmly and even temoered, and let her figure out the rest for herself. Like AS also said. She knows that if she moves out it's going to put her in a difficult decision in court, as well as her own well being financially. She knows she needs time to stage all of this which is the whole purpose of the 6-month trial separation. She is staging to buy herself more time to get away from you. you are not stopping her and you are not controlling her and you are not manipulating her. She's free to do as she pleases but you are sticking to your guns and staying in the house and the MBR. You are protecting yourself your home your castle and your kids.

You have to get used to not engaging in any dramatic behavior. You have to get used to being comfortable with the silence between you and her. You have to get comfortable with any move she makes on incremental basis away from you and the marriage.

When you stand your ground on these things she's going to try to Gaslight you, make you feel guilty, and manipulate you into giving in to achieve her end goal. They won't realize that that they are doing this, and are being manipulative what they are. They feel like they are owed some kind of suffrage for putting up with you. What they want is to not only get away from you but either keep the house and the children, or push you out if it, or even like in my case, sell it to not only get away from you, but make a gain from it to start a new life. and they try to get you to agree to it on their terms. By all means pay for your kids and take care of them. Ill input more later W just pulled up in driveway.

IHCLACS - This really resonated for me. To be completely honest, sometimes I find your posts to be very edgy and sometimes you sound angry at women in general and it makes me uncomfortable. I'm sorry but at this fragile state I prefer blunt honesty. And please continue to deliver it back to me as well.

But this post resonated so much with my own situation. And like you I empathize with my W even if I don't agree.

My home and castle will need to be sold, unless we R. It is a fact. It is a physical structure. What I care about is that it is my kids' home. Other than that it is largely symbolic.

Ignore the home issue for a second, My W wants time and space. She wants to get back to work. She is a wreck. She admitted some weeks she drank a bottle of wine every night, others she was stress-eating. I noticed ALL of this. She is a mess, and if she says it's the stress of being around me, by all means, I will separate. Living together is not healthy right now. I'm not even saying I think we can ever reconcile. I think the combo as you said of PTSD, EMOTIONAL ABUSE, BLAME and GUILT SHIFTING -- that is a HUGE mountain to climb. I have no control over whether she can get over it. It seems impossible when I look at it. And then she talks about the past and how she wants to get back to that place. How D is the last thing she wants, but she just can't keep living like this. I can only be reliable, dependable, and emotionally stable. Which is good for me anyways.

Standing my ground on the house? It is summer time. My kids are out of school. I work FT. My W moves, I don't see how the kids stay at the house. They need their mom. As awful as this situation is, they need her as primary caretaker. So then they need to move also. They need me too. It's a mess.

Yes I feel manipulated, guilted, etc. I also feel like I can stand my ground in other ways. Come over for dinner with the kids at the house? That's playing family, probably not a good idea. Get a 1BR place and have the kids sleep over periodically? Actually I think creating a 2nd home with rooms for the kids is a better idea, Dad's house, with a set custody-style schedule that we agree upon. I mean, this would basically be the same as a D situation, except my W stays in the house instead of selling and moving somewhere else.

Anyways... I get it. I'm too nice, easy-going, amicable. I still want things to "work out" whether we D, S, or R. I don't care so much about the outcome anymore, but I am still liable to cave to demands.

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U,

If you move out you are going to set your limbo and outcome back at least a year and that’s minimum.

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U

I haven't been on here in a while, but I have been reading your posts most days watching what is like a mirror image of my situation at home.

3 kids under 8, M almost 13 years, W wants out from emotional abuse, that she told me she wanted to stop 18 months ago - then she started an almost year long A. She confessed the PA, only to discover she was having a concurrent EA. She has never let go of that to 'work' on the MR.

She stopped MC about 2 months ago to BD. I have have been in turmoil ever since.

But what has resonated with me from everyone here: LH, Steve, AS and others is - you're not in a position to negotiate or win your marriage back anymore by conceding or acquiescing to her needs.

If she wants separation, she can figure that out. It's not mean, it's not uncooperative, it's not manipulative. It's your position, it's your boundary. No matter how much guilt or shame you feel from your years of doing things - you know those things now. You can't live in that place anymore. My W wants me to though. She doesn't want to hear changes OR even see them. It doesn't match her narrative. She continues to bring me articles about abuse, patriarch, women's issues.

STAY in the house. If you're not going to file, STAY in the house. It's your house. They're your kids. And quite frankly you potentially could set yourself up to get less in custody if you leave.

Not many (if any) guys have talked about them leaving OR nesting working for them.

She can have her space. She can go out. She can sleep downstairs. She can stay at a friends. That's her choice.

If you're going to wait this out, stand strong in your standard. I am doing myself to maintain hope, it's not working. But I'm not leaving.

My W is a SAHM, I'd feel horrible to do anything that feels like kicking her out financially BUT this is the family agreement we talked about before we even had kids. I'm not going to feel guilty about me bringing home all the money and her not having the opportunity to because we agreed she'd raise the kids at home.

But things are different now. She's declaring independence. But that doesn't mean you have to be a doormat. You can support your family. But you can set your boundaries. Don't finance her fun. Heck they are your boundaries, if she's not going to move toward you with her choices....honestly, what do you have to lose?

I am going back through this entire thread to RE-READ and RE-READ everyone's amazing encouragement and advice because I want to be healthy. I am tired of being a sniveling weakling that my wife can control by throwing me a bone every once in a while saying she is still conflicted. Her actions have said otherwise.

You can both manage to parent the kids, be roomates until:
1. She gives you evidence she really wants to work.
2. You decide you've had enough and file
3. You give yourself small timelines that you want to work toward. (ie by the end of Summer let's see where we are)

You're a great dude U. It absolutely [censored] to be in this position to let this dream die of what we thought would be the absolute love of our lives. I feel all of what you're going through. I'm codependent, I'm manipulative, I'm controlling but I really want to get healthy.

And if you want to make healthy choices, these guys (and gals) up here have given you enough to live on for the next several weeks.


H46
W38
M12
T15
D8,S7,S5

11/12/17 "I don't want to be married like this" A began
7/12/18 Confessed A
10/1/19 EA still happening with 2
4/23/19 "I want a D, but I want to stay until I find a job"
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You have great feedback already so I will not repeat it. You may want to think about this one below though

Originally Posted by unchien

Re: the house - if we D, it has to be sold. We can't afford the mortgage if we split income.


If you move out will you not have to pay for the house AND your new living arrangements while splitting the same income?

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Hi Unchien,

Originally Posted by "Unchien"
My kids are out of school. I work FT. My W moves, I don't see how the kids stay at the house. They need their mom. As awful as this situation is, they need her as primary caretaker.


As a divorced dad who obtained primary custody, consider that the separation sets up the long-term deal. Courts tend to maintain the status quo. If you divorce, how will you care for you kids over the summer?

a) Work From Home when you can
b) Leverage summer enrichment camps (sports, art, stem)
c) Part-time nanny, child-care, or au pair
d) Full-time nanny or childcare

Assuming you eventually want 50/50 custody, can you take 50/50 custody now and leverage one of those?

Since the money is shared, technically, you're only paying for half these expenses!

Going to Basketball or Little Gym or Minecraft camp for 6 hours and then spending the morning/evening with Dad is arguably better for the kids than always spending full days with Mom. It also may give her a better idea of what the long-term reality is like of splitting the family down the middle.

(Reality may be a bit harder, since she may also have to work to support her home.)

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CW -

Custody is the big concern about separation for me. Especially with the abuse narrative that my W may play. So I am well aware if I go down this route I need to establish a solid custody agreement with my W.

And I also agree that separation needs to look more like a true separation. Maybe we agree to meet for dinner as a family once a week, but other than that, I don't see any sense or value in playing family at the house. Confusing for the kids, and it's not a true separation.

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Originally Posted by MLCxH
You have great feedback already so I will not repeat it. You may want to think about this one below though

Originally Posted by unchien

Re: the house - if we D, it has to be sold. We can't afford the mortgage if we split income.


If you move out will you not have to pay for the house AND your new living arrangements while splitting the same income?

MLCxH - there's no splitting income, it's all my income at the moment. But yes, if we separate, we are going to be living beyond our means for up to 6 months. It will be expensive. W may not get that yet.

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Originally Posted by si13
You can both manage to parent the kids, be roomates until:
1. She gives you evidence she really wants to work.
2. You decide you've had enough and file
3. You give yourself small timelines that you want to work toward. (ie by the end of Summer let's see where we are)

What my W has essentially told me (and I tread carefully here because words can betray true feelings, and her feelings themselves may be fluctuating for all I know):

- She is really confused what she wants, but she is not happy with how things are.
- She feels fear around me.
- She does not trust me, in particular as a romantic partner.
- She doesn't even know if space would help or not, she just requested it.
- She said she wants to see improvement on my emotional issues - this is confusing as heck, because I have been so even-keel lately, but I will keep going to IC and working on myself.

Now, I would argue basically all of the above are W's own issues. I cannot really do anything to change how she feels, other than be the best UC I can be. You might say she's feeding me BS, but then she makes statements about how we used to be, and how she wants to get back to that, and really doesn't want D. Sigh...I don't know what to believe anymore. Just a lot of information to process.

Let's set aside the "stay in the house" issue for one moment... I think it's clear where the forum mostly stands, and also clear that I'm waffling, and I'm aware of the dangers of ignoring this advice.

My W just told me directly we cannot be roommates and manage the kids. She will not accept that. Technically we are officially separated because she asked for it in M. I do agree on your 3 bullets being critical:

1. Evidence she wants to work - what UC wants to see is that we continue to go to MC and W gets off the abuse narrative and onto the "we need to communicate better" narrative. This will be a work in progress. I also need to see her accept the consequences of separation -- (again let's ignore the house for a moment) -- no "playing family" for instance. If abuse keeps coming up it's going to scare the s@#$ out of me that she's going to make some move for 100% custody or something and it will push us right out of being able to trust each other... because I also lack the necessary trust to build an intimate MR right now.

2. This option exists at any time, for both of us.

3. Small timelines - part of MC would include this. The MC seemed like he would help drive this as well. A 6 month separation is not "let's put our heads in the sand and then look up 6 months from now". I agree. MC is a great way to measure weekly progress.

Now what exactly are small timelines and measurable goals? I don't know. Need to think more about that. But yeah we can't wait until November and say "How are things going?"

Actually... I have zero clue how reconciliation even works in a separation situation. Honestly. Do couples reinitiate date night after awhile? I don't get it at all. It seems like the very nature of separation makes it almost impossible to rekindle anything. Or is ti just one spouse decides "Hey let's move back in together it seems like things are better."

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Originally Posted by Steve85
Originally Posted by unchien
The no dating thing is my rule if we separate. We didn’t even discuss it yet. I doubt it will be an issue.


Won't be an issue because you have no way to enforce it.

Her: "Okay I won't date while we are separated."

Later.......

You: "I found out you've been dating! That is a violation of our agreement."
Her: "Oh, oops."

You are trying to control her. That is pressure. It will be your undoing.

If it isn't an issue, then don't put that in the separation agreement.

Good point. Maybe best unspoken for now.

It raises an interesting point... I also feel like if we separate in my circumstances that it's best making this informal as possible. I know I am on edge about being served D papers. After last night, I think my W is as well. So the less we can wrap this up as some legal thing with terms it's probably for the best. It does expose me to some risk in particular with custody, yes, but so be it. If the point is to repair trust, legal docs aren't going to help.

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U,

Are you saying that you feel your W is on edge about you serving her papers? Please, please, trust me she knows there is zero chance right now and to be quite blunt right now she would love it if that happened. Years down the road she could tell your children that you filed for D.

I wish there was a way we could convince you that if you move out it may be the biggest mistake you ever made in your life. If her main goal is to reconcile, why does she have a name and number of a lawyer already.

I lived in IHS in the end for 15 months and it wasn't that stressful at all. Kids I don't think even really knew anything was wrong. Have family dinner together then went our separate ways. We even started having sex again the last 7 months until she left.

The key is to drop the rope and accept that it's over. If she starts moving toward and making and effort then you can reevaluate. All the BS she fed you last night we have heard on here 100s of times and I think Steves is the only one that turned around. He DBed 100% by the book and if he would have moved out he would be D by now.

Remember reconciliation is always a possibility. My friends parents got back together after 35 years.

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It only becomes stressful when you don’t give them what they want.

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Originally Posted by si13
But what has resonated with me from everyone here: LH, Steve, AS and others is - you're not in a position to negotiate or win your marriage back anymore by conceding or acquiescing to her needs.


Exactly right.

Quote
My W is a SAHM, I'd feel horrible to do anything that feels like kicking her out financially BUT this is the family agreement we talked about before we even had kids. I'm not going to feel guilty about me bringing home all the money and her not having the opportunity to because we agreed she'd raise the kids at home.


I think a lot of us go through this and it's due to NGS. We at least in part buy into our WAS's claims that it's our fault, we were abusive or dismissive or didn't meet their needs or whatever. But at the end of the day we are the ones fighting to save our M's and they are the ones FIGHTING HARD TO END THEM. They may do it by withholding sex, or treating us like crap, or accusing us of things we never did, or rewriting history, or threatening to take our kids away. Or all of above and more. But what a lot of us should really wrap our heads around is THEY ARE THE BAD GUY HERE, not us. All we're guilty of is ignorance. Now that we know there were problems, we're willing to change. But they won't even crack the door open to that. Sandi is a big proponent of playing hardball with WAW's and WW's in particular. Why? Because it's the only thing that works. The WAW has lost respect for her H and he is not going to get it back by appeasing her or making this easy on her. The more he rolls on her demands, then the more pathetic she thinks he is and the less respect and attraction she has for him.

Here is the attitude every LBS should take- "I made some mistakes, I own those mistakes, and I vow to correct those mistakes. But I am not the one wrecking this M, my spouse is and she needs to be held accountable for that."

HELD ACCOUNTABLE. Quit giving your rogue wives free passes on this guys. What have they done to deserve keeping the home, the kids, and half or more of YOUR paycheck.

U, all this crap your W is feeding you about being confused and not knowing what she wants and blah blah blah is SCRIPT. We call it script because nearly all of them do it. What do you think we mean when we say believe nothing they say and only half of what they do? We mean don't buy into the script. She has a hidden agenda that you are not a party to. She has a plan of action that she is following step-by-step.

Step 1- pull back and treat U like the plague to prepare him for S and D.
Step 2- rally others to my cause- find a "marriage counselor" that is pro-divorce and willing to help with BD
Step 3- BD him with the help of the MC
Step 4- push him out of the house with minimal impact to me, dangle the carrot to him (I'm confused, I just need time, later who knows what may happen, just give me space and we'll see what happens) to maximize financial support I get from him
Step 5- file for D, continue dangling the carrot (I'm open to sex, maybe D will give me the time and space I really need, there's still hope, this may be a new beginning for us) to soften him up to give me a big settlement
Step 6- move OM into family home (may move this to step 4A or 5A but if I do I'll have to ramp up the gaslighting)

U, you can't stop her plans, her agenda. But you CAN make it on YOUR terms instead of hers.

Originally Posted by unchien

What my W has essentially told me (and I tread carefully here because words can betray true feelings, and her feelings themselves may be fluctuating for all I know):

- She is really confused what she wants, but she is not happy with how things are. SCRIPT
- She feels fear around me. SCRIPT
- She does not trust me, in particular as a romantic partner. SCRIPT
- She doesn't even know if space would help or not, she just requested it. SCRIPT
- She said she wants to see improvement on my emotional issues SCRIPT

- this is confusing as heck, because I have been so even-keel lately, but I will keep going to IC and working on myself.


It's confusing because it's BS. It's all excuses to further her agenda. She has no intentions, and I mean ZERO of giving you a chance. She gives you a list, you work on those things, she gives you another list. Eventually she's got you afraid to chew with your mouth open or put the toilet paper roll on because you might get it backwards.

Quote
You might say she's feeding me BS, but then she makes statements about how we used to be, and how she wants to get back to that, and really doesn't want D.


SCRIPT See what I said above about "dangling the carrot".

Quote
Sigh...I don't know what to believe anymore. Just a lot of information to process.


That's what we are here for, to help you navigate this.

Quote
1. Evidence she wants to work - what UC wants to see is that we continue to go to MC and W gets off the abuse narrative and onto the "we need to communicate better" narrative. This will be a work in progress. I also need to see her accept the consequences of separation -- (again let's ignore the house for a moment) -- no "playing family" for instance. If abuse keeps coming up it's going to scare the s@#$ out of me that she's going to make some move for 100% custody or something and it will push us right out of being able to trust each other... because I also lack the necessary trust to build an intimate MR right now.

2. This option exists at any time, for both of us.

3. Small timelines - part of MC would include this. The MC seemed like he would help drive this as well. A 6 month separation is not "let's put our heads in the sand and then look up 6 months from now". I agree. MC is a great way to measure weekly progress.


U, you seem to be in the grip of a delusion that you are in a position to work on the M with her via MC. NO NO NOOOOO that is not an option right now. Let me remind you that she has a clearcut agenda and she's ticking off the boxes right now. Notice what is NOT on her agenda? Work on the M. It's not on her radar and won't be for a long time. Probably over a year. Let me also remind you the MC just assisted her in BD'ing you. This is not someone that's going to help you rebuild the M.

Quote
Now what exactly are small timelines and measurable goals? I don't know. Need to think more about that.


No you don't. You need to think about what you need to do to protect yourself from her, and to make yourself a force of nature, the spouse only a fool would leave. Time to start DB'ing.

Quote
Actually... I have zero clue how reconciliation even works in a separation situation. Honestly. Do couples reinitiate date night after awhile? I don't get it at all. It seems like the very nature of separation makes it almost impossible to rekindle anything. Or is ti just one spouse decides "Hey let's move back in together it seems like things are better."


No the LBS quits putting up with the WAS's BS and leaves her alone and goes about the business of building a life separately from her. He gives her REAL time and space. She does her own thing and eventually discovers it's not the nirvana she expected. She looks back and sees a confident, sexy, independent LBS that isn't showing any interest in her anymore, and that makes her wonder, makes her want to find out more.


Me: 60 w/ S18, D24, D27

M: 21 years; BD: 06-14-12; S: 09-10-12; D final: 03-17-14; XW:57
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Originally Posted by unchien
Originally Posted by IHCLACS
I confirm today that W is depressed with herself and sich, and is looking on working on that with IC to find activities and purpose while single mom, seperated, and work on self esteem, and is conflicted with herself about the whole thing, according to a IC document I saw left out on table. She doesn't know if I broke her or she doesn't know she's broken, or what could be a combination of both? PTSD, EMOTIONAL ABUSE, BLAME AND GUILT SHIFTING. While it may have some validity, I didn't break her, and its not my job to fix her or her perceptions. But empathize with it. But it is my job to either change my behaviors or not demonstrate the bad ones at all.

I'm trying to say here she's probably second-guessing herself on whether it's her, or whether it's you? They will most likely say that they are only reacting to you which is partly true. You could even say the same thing that you are only reacting to her and the situation. So what do you do? Remove all reactivity and situations that may prompt such for now.

Like LH19 said. She thinks you are fragile, unreliable, independable, and emotionally insecure. PROVE HER WRONG! Like Nails also said. Make a decision to stay in the house.Communicate it calmly and even temoered, and let her figure out the rest for herself. Like AS also said. She knows that if she moves out it's going to put her in a difficult decision in court, as well as her own well being financially. She knows she needs time to stage all of this which is the whole purpose of the 6-month trial separation. She is staging to buy herself more time to get away from you. you are not stopping her and you are not controlling her and you are not manipulating her. She's free to do as she pleases but you are sticking to your guns and staying in the house and the MBR. You are protecting yourself your home your castle and your kids.

You have to get used to not engaging in any dramatic behavior. You have to get used to being comfortable with the silence between you and her. You have to get comfortable with any move she makes on incremental basis away from you and the marriage.

When you stand your ground on these things she's going to try to Gaslight you, make you feel guilty, and manipulate you into giving in to achieve her end goal. They won't realize that that they are doing this, and are being manipulative what they are. They feel like they are owed some kind of suffrage for putting up with you. What they want is to not only get away from you but either keep the house and the children, or push you out if it, or even like in my case, sell it to not only get away from you, but make a gain from it to start a new life. and they try to get you to agree to it on their terms. By all means pay for your kids and take care of them. Ill input more later W just pulled up in driveway.

IHCLACS - This really resonated for me. To be completely honest, sometimes I find your posts to be very edgy and sometimes you sound angry at women in general and it makes me uncomfortable. I'm sorry but at this fragile state I prefer blunt honesty. And please continue to deliver it back to me as well.

But this post resonated so much with my own situation. And like you I empathize with my W even if I don't agree.

My home and castle will need to be sold, unless we R. It is a fact. It is a physical structure. What I care about is that it is my kids' home. Other than that it is largely symbolic.

Ignore the home issue for a second, My W wants time and space. She wants to get back to work. She is a wreck. She admitted some weeks she drank a bottle of wine every night, others she was stress-eating. I noticed ALL of this. She is a mess, and if she says it's the stress of being around me, by all means, I will separate. Living together is not healthy right now. I'm not even saying I think we can ever reconcile. I think the combo as you said of PTSD, EMOTIONAL ABUSE, BLAME and GUILT SHIFTING -- that is a HUGE mountain to climb. I have no control over whether she can get over it. It seems impossible when I look at it. And then she talks about the past and how she wants to get back to that place. How D is the last thing she wants, but she just can't keep living like this. I can only be reliable, dependable, and emotionally stable. Which is good for me anyways.

Standing my ground on the house? It is summer time. My kids are out of school. I work FT. My W moves, I don't see how the kids stay at the house. They need their mom. As awful as this situation is, they need her as primary caretaker. So then they need to move also. They need me too. It's a mess.

Yes I feel manipulated, guilted, etc. I also feel like I can stand my ground in other ways. Come over for dinner with the kids at the house? That's playing family, probably not a good idea. Get a 1BR place and have the kids sleep over periodically? Actually I think creating a 2nd home with rooms for the kids is a better idea, Dad's house, with a set custody-style schedule that we agree upon. I mean, this would basically be the same as a D situation, except my W stays in the house instead of selling and moving somewhere else.

Anyways... I get it. I'm too nice, easy-going, amicable. I still want things to "work out" whether we D, S, or R. I don't care so much about the outcome anymore, but I am still liable to cave to demands.


Yeah I know its a mess Uni. Not knowing where you are going to live. Where you are going to put your stuff. Watching your children's home, your children's yard, you're children's care, and your dreams and lives for your children get shifted around aimlessly with not much of a plan. At least not a united one.Then deciding whether you are primary or secondary depending on your work needs to provide.

Of course she is a mess. Of course she is a mess, she is most likely depressed, and going through a major life transition with conflicted FEELINGS. And according to her perception... ITS ALL YOUR FAULT!!! Just like when she gave birth to your children. (Hypothetically) "You did this to me, its all your fault!" I've been noticing the same behaviors with my W as well. She hasn't been polishing off a whole bottle of wine a night, but about one a week. More beer and and girly drinks in the house lately (Not mine) Her dishes in the sink for 3 days. (Despite holding my @ss to the flame over a few things left in the sink by me last week when she cooked.) Very rarely now, sometimes I'll do the dishes for her and she won't even acknowledge it. Otherwise I'll let her be responsible for her own messes and I won't touch them. complete breakdown of perception and communication on moving forward with things. That's why I just stopped talking to her all together and told her to communicate everything through email.) She has been stress eating, eating junk, hot dogs, chicken fingers, cinnamon buns, takeout, etc. Despite trying to lose weight and boost her self esteem with outside things like nails, inexpensive jewelry, knick knacks, clothes, old and new perfumes, self help books, etc. "Poor me, my life [censored], FB posts." I've even observed that her voice has changed lately. She is having frequent headaches.You know when you listen to somebody's voice, and they try to sound upbeat, but you know they're faking it? And they revert to a tonality that you can tell that they're depressed? Its a depression Uni. Some secretly and quietly hide it very well for years, depending on how open or guarded are with their feelings.

I'm not saying that what I have done is what you should do. But I've removed all emotional interactions with her, again to give her space, and give myself emotional stabilityity. I could ramp it up and just be positive around her all the time, even for my own sake, but still wouldn't matter because they are depressed. We are the closest scape goats for it. Again they do have some validity to some of our toxic behaviors. They are scared of us and they don't trust us. So we need to 180 on those things, and leave them to themselves so they can figure out whether it's them or whether it's us... you stop feeding their monster, you take away what you were contributing to their justifications for leaving. You stop giving them ammo to work with.

Once both of our homes are sold and we are both physically separated and settled into our own lives, I think one or two things are going to happen. They are initially either going to be happier and more relieved temporarily, and realize that since they are now independent of us and are happier for it then we were the cause after all. But... because happiness is a state and it's not constant, eventually somewhere they're going to be unhappy again, and then maybe they will be happy again depending on what they achieve with their new independent lives? Happiness is like money. Its designed to come and go. That's what it's meant to do. Realizing this about life is essential. Or another thing can happen? They will realize that we weren't the root cause of their unhappiness and start to question their own perceptions and beliefs. That isn't going to necessarily make them crawl back to us because of their conflicting feelings. But it may just make them question their own perceptions.

I have seen so many men on here say the same things when it comes to their WAW. Emotional abuse, emotional neglect, etc... Si13, Wolfman, and a few others have all said this. It is their feelings and their perceptions and we can't even argue with it. Some of us has guys have a tendency to get a little over reactive and raise our voices when we are dealing with bull$hit, or, we become emotionally unavailable and walk away, step out of the house go for a car ride excetera. It helps us but it doesn't help them. We have to be the rock for ourselves and for them and for our children. It's hard to accept but you practically cannot have any vulnerability to a woman because she will exploit it and disrespect you for it. Especially during these circumstances. When we become emotionally stronger than them that's when you know you are becoming alpha and detached. Again I don't know everyone's personal circumstances intimately. I'm sure I may have been verbally abrasive at times, but who hasn't? Like Si13 I want to work on this. I have to recognize that when dealing with woman, I have to be more emotionally considerate, and process my responses through a filter, rather than just speaking to them the way I speak to everyone just by the way I was conditioned growing up.

I'm going to go one even better as far as attraction. I realize how much I was working on myself when I was single before I met my wife. And also how I also had a little bit of depression because I was single and didn't have a woman in my life. I stopped working on myself mentality and emotionally, once I got into the relationship, and even more so once I got married, continue to progress in other areas but also get frustrated as well. I myself out. With major bouts of depression through my life due to job loss and other circumstances, but always eventually pick myself up out of it.
My wife has struggled with her weight and her self-esteem since she was a little girl. She was doing good on herself improvements while she was single for two or three years before meeting me. Then slowly and we got the house and got settled in over the last seven years and try to have children the depressions consumes her and I never even noticed it because it was so subtle and she was so private about it. Well? Maybe not that private?... I was too busy dealing with my own problems.

The reason why I'm telling this huge story, because when they meet us we are exciting and new to them and they are attracted to us because of our power and our independence. Slowly over time people become more and more codependent upon one another, compromise, and lose their identities for themselves. Co dependants attract co dependants. Feelings change, we out grow people, etc.... Feelings and intuition are supposed to guide you through life, but you can't always trust them. Ask any criminal, drug addict, or cheater where they're feelings got them in life? Feelings and emotions have to be reasonably balanced with logic and reason. The reason why everyone here says it's a marathon not a Sprint and these things may or may not resolve themselves over the course of two to five years is exactly because of feelings. A woman's feelings can easily be manipulated and most Alpha men know this and use it to their advantage. We could check off all of their boxes on a date, but if they're not feeling it then they're not feeling it. They will most likely blame it on chemistry which is partly true. What I'm trying to say is the overall bigger picture is you are dealing with an emotional creature that is subject to change their feelings at any time for any given reason whether it makes sense or not. Whether it's right for them right for you or right for everybody, it's your responsibility to assess things accurately and clearly for the bigger picture. Healthy emotions are supposed to serve us and we are supposed to build connections and benefit from it in happy relationships. But when we are not happy with ourselves our relationships suffer because we are suffering as individuals. But happiness or unhappiness again is a state and it's not the is all end all, it's just for the moment or just for a period of time, or just for a couple of years. We have to be happy to move forward with our lives. Or do we? Ever notice you hate forcing yourself to do something when you're depressed but then once you do it you feel better? we have to recognize Womanhood and their emotions and feelings for what they are. Just a current state that is always subject to change. We also have to recognize that as men, due to our nature and emotional volatility at times, that is good to feel emotions, but we have to have to balance them with logic, andt not get sucked into the emotions and drama of a SO. We need to be the decisive ones. We need to have that healthy balance, and recognize the bigger picture of dynamics between men and women for what they are, and how we can become more emotionally intelligent as a result oh how we show up in the world.


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Originally Posted by si13

My W is a SAHM, I'd feel horrible to do anything that feels like kicking her out financially BUT this is the family agreement we talked about before we even had kids. I'm not going to feel guilty about me bringing home all the money and her not having the opportunity to because we agreed she'd raise the kids at home.

But things are different now. She's declaring independence. But that doesn't mean you have to be a doormat. You can support your family. But you can set your boundaries. Don't finance her fun. Heck they are your boundaries, if she's not going to move toward you with her choices....honestly, what do you have to lose?



Along with AS, I wanted to address this. I agree with everything that AS said. And want to add this perspective: You didn't ask for this. She did. You aren't "kicking her out financially", she FIRED you financially. This is on her. This is why I am a staunch adversary to "voluntary support". No, she asked for this. Now the D court may great her alimony based on her being a SAHM and out of the job force, but you let the court order it before paying it. (Note it is usually temporary unless the LBH is very well off.)

So this isn't the LBH kicking her out financially, this is the WAW firing her LBH financially. And that decision has consequences.


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^^^^^^^^^^^ what AS and Steve have said is crucial. I co-sign that a 1000%. This is a really important point that you need to understand. And this perspective isn't about lack of empathy, but it's about consequences for decisions that you had no part in. Shouldn't she have thought of what was going to happen if she fired you as the H, considering she's a SAHM? That's on her. I know it may sound cruel, esp when NGS is flaring up, but it's the right move.


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I agree NGS has flared up.

My W identifies with the abuse narrative. I pulled over the car in March, she was crying in MC about how she was terrified for her life. She brought up 2 incidents from the past 3 years where I was rough with my kids. One was I grabbed my son's leg in the backseat of the car because he was punching his sister. That was 10 months ago. I'm not saying these things were okay, they are not. But if she can't move past them, how can I trust that she is not going to go to court and label me as an abuser and f@#$ me over. She brought this stuff up right at the beginning of MC. I admitted to it in apology letters when I wanted to reconcile. I've worked on my issues in IC. It doesn't matter. If she thinks "UC is an ABUSER" then this MR is toast and I need to go full legal protections TODAY.

I agree I have the option to stay in the house. It might be a legal nightmare and it scares the hell out of me, but may be the right thing to do.

I'm just saying my sitch is not just my W claiming abuse. She said it in front of a MC. I admitted to these (what I think are isolated) incidents. I don't act that way anymore. It doesn't matter. It's a real problem. A good lawyer could fight it I'm sure, but if she's going to go down that route I need to be extra cautious. That's all I'm saying.

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Originally Posted by unchien
I agree NGS has flared up.

My W identifies with the abuse narrative. I pulled over the car in March, she was crying in MC about how she was terrified for her life. She brought up 2 incidents from the past 3 years where I was rough with my kids. One was I grabbed my son's leg in the backseat of the car because he was punching his sister. That was 10 months ago. I'm not saying these things were okay, they are not. But if she can't move past them, how can I trust that she is not going to go to court and label me as an abuser and f@#$ me over. She brought this stuff up right at the beginning of MC. I admitted to it in apology letters when I wanted to reconcile. I've worked on my issues in IC. It doesn't matter. If she thinks "UC is an ABUSER" then this MR is toast and I need to go full legal protections TODAY.

I agree I have the option to stay in the house. It might be a legal nightmare and it scares the hell out of me, but may be the right thing to do.

I'm just saying my sitch is not just my W claiming abuse. She said it in front of a MC. I admitted to these (what I think are isolated) incidents. I don't act that way anymore. It doesn't matter. It's a real problem. A good lawyer could fight it I'm sure, but if she's going to go down that route I need to be extra cautious. That's all I'm saying.


Uni, If I were in your position, I would be looking into hiring a lawyer. I would also try to find out if the MC can testify about what is discussed in your sessions.

Originally Posted by unchien


If she thinks "UC is an ABUSER" then this MR is toast and I need to go full legal protections TODAY.

Big difference between thinking and accusing you of it. It seems like you are saying she accused you of being an abuser in MC from what you wrote

I am not a lawyer nor know any details about the law in your state but reading through what you have written, these look like serious issues and in my opinion you would benefit from legal help.

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On this topic, I am thinking about raising in our next MC session my fear and trust issues on this topic.

"I have fears about separating and the impact to my rights as a future dad, especially given the abuse talk."

Yes I know this may get legal. For the moment, it is what it is. I can't control whether my W decides to make it a legal issue. What's done and documented is done and documented. Worrying isn't going to help me.

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Uni. I have had similar circumstances of W accusing of raising my voice at S1 son, after him refusing to listen when being firm and saying NO! When he's standing on top of the sofa. Eventually W got used to me reprimanding him, after we officially separated in the house. That when he's on my time I will parent him my way. Its called disciplining your children!!! For their own saftey In my book. If that scares your W, or it doesn't make her feel safe, or she finds that to be emotionally abusive. You've got much bigger problems. Once they have distanced themselves from you they will twist and turn their narrative any which way from Sunday to paint you as the bad guy especially in court I'm sure. (I've seen it happen with my brother in a very long 16 year custodial battle with him, his kids, and XW, where XW was neglectful to kids and made up all sorts of lies in court, pushing serious slander and allegations against brother that was not true. It took him 16 years a lot of bodily and legal damage to obtain custody of one of his daughters. The other was already emancipated.) You better pray you get a good reasonable non biased family court judge. One of my brothers biased judges was probably his fourth after changing venues over counties ironically at one time denied transport to my niece with my brother to our country home out of state. Despite the fact that my niece was raped by a friend of hers, at her mothers house, while my nieces Mom was home in the house getting drunk on wine. Ironically that same judge was later indicted years later for molesting kids as well. (Yeah I know F@$!ed up confusing story.) This XW of my brother is who my W and her family insisted on inviting to our wedding 10 years ago, because my nieces were the flower girls, 10 and 12 at time and my W wanted a built in babysitter so not to have "her day" interrupted. This sent shockwaves between my W and I and so had to handle the friction between the families, and mine and W's family at time. My W still identifies with XSIL. Ironically W now has no problem using my brother to babysit our S1 when we have to work since W's mother is incapacitated at the moment from surgery. Sorry for the long story. This is why I have a bias view so much here about people crying abuse and playing the victim and twisting reality. It better be real and it better be legitimate. Every woman deserves the freedom from any kind of abuse. But some play the victim card, either intentionally to be manipulative in court, or because of their exaggerated perceptions.

You better stay calm, don't over react to anything, and don't display any dramatic behaviors whatsoever.

If I were you I would cease all verbal communication with her at this point and L up at least for a consultation. She can't be trusted with her "victimization" status and mindset. I would choose your words very carefully from here on forward. I haven't gotten to family court yet. But im also wondering... The fact that I am in therapy IC I wonder if that would or could ever be used against me? I know my brother tried using his XW mental instability record against her after being institutionalised for knocking her own mother out after consuming kolonopin and vodka, all in front of the kids.

Again sorry for the stories. Just learned how to protect myself a little better from dissolving marriages and warped perceptions from brother's experiences.

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Originally Posted by unchien
"I have fears about separating and the impact to my rights as a future dad, especially given the abuse talk."

What do you believe your MC could offer in terms of advice? It seems you're telling your spouse your worst fear about divorce strategies she could use.. maybe a better conversion to have with your attorney.

I might double-check what is protected and disclosable from your sessions.

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It really worries and concerns me sometimes how children can be weaponized against former spouses in divorce and family court, whether male or female.

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^^^CWarrior it almost sounds like an "on the record" setup in Uni's case. He would have to check with the local laws with counseling disclosures in his state along with L consultation. But typically any mention of abuse whether it be verbal, physical, neglect, terroristic or suicidal threats encompass state red flag and disclosure laws to notify authorities. Applies to doctors counselors Etc . I know a little bit about this being a firearms and Pro 2A advocate what specifically triggers a counselor to notify authorities. Plus most if not all councelors, make you sign a disclosure agreement about this upon first initial session. So Uni I would read what you already signed. There may even be some State statutes in there that are codified that you can take to L.

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Yes they would have to report to the authorities. The same stuff came up in first MC round in 2018. I never heard from the authorities.

I did not sign for disclosing anything.

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Originally Posted by IHCLACS
It really worries and concerns me sometimes how children can be weaponized against former spouses in divorce and family court, whether male or female.


This happened to me and my bros. We were 10, 7 and 3.

It affected all of us emotionally physically and developmentally. Two of us are now D'd or S'd, indirectly or directly because of this.

Please - if you can - make sure this doesnt happen to your kids. I know everyone talks tough here on MBR reclaiming and house retaining. But be aware that if there are kids, this isn't just about you or W.

Also, if there are ways to go about this without L being involved, I would highly recommend it.

Stay strong U.

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IW - you are speaking to my heart.

I’m not saying I am cowed by my W’s abuse talk, and so far the threats are indirect. Indirect but real. My worst case here is getting in a nasty custody battle. This means treading carefully, making sure my custody needs are met. This would include if we separate that I feel safe in our arrangement so I don’t get screwed if we end up divorcing. Without L’s involved.

It is tricky to navigate but the calmer I am the better. Basically if we separate which right now I agree to (terms are debatable) I need to feel safe and secure that my rights as a father are solid. I need some trust. I don’t know what that means exactly, and TBH it is hard to trust my W right now. Or really to trust my W in a year if we go down the D route and things get contentious.

And yes, this trust is a big part of whether I would consider R. Just like she says she needs to build trust with me, and it’s hard to define how to do that, I need to build trust with her, meaning I can’t always be waiting for abuse allegations.

So yeah this trust is affecting how I look at things More than who lives where. I plan to address this in MC next week. But I can’t define exactly what I’m looking for to be assured.

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Originally Posted by unchien
IW - you are speaking to my heart.

I’m not saying I am cowed by my W’s abuse talk, and so far the threats are indirect. Indirect but real. My worst case here is getting in a nasty custody battle. This means treading carefully, making sure my custody needs are met. This would include if we separate that I feel safe in our arrangement so I don’t get screwed if we end up divorcing. Without L’s involved.

It is tricky to navigate but the calmer I am the better. Basically if we separate which right now I agree to (terms are debatable) I need to feel safe and secure that my rights as a father are solid. I need some trust. I don’t know what that means exactly, and TBH it is hard to trust my W right now. Or really to trust my W in a year if we go down the D route and things get contentious.

And yes, this trust is a big part of whether I would consider R. Just like she says she needs to build trust with me, and it’s hard to define how to do that, I need to build trust with her, meaning I can’t always be waiting for abuse allegations.

So yeah this trust is affecting how I look at things More than who lives where. I plan to address this in MC next week. But I can’t define exactly what I’m looking for to be assured.


Exactly.

I'm not suggesting to ignore advice, or to follow advice 100 percent. But I am suggesting that taking advice and learning how to apply it to your sit (or mine or anyones) is most important. It has taken some trial and error in my sit, bc some of the advice I followed and experimented with did not go over well (at ALL). Others went way better than expected. Each S will react differently in each unique sit.

That being said the very helpful advice being given here by some amazing people based on previous experience is absolute treasure (shout out to you all)

The key elements as always is to focus on yourself and the kids. I think because those areas are where the most control lies.

The variable is how W reacts. Which is also why I think DB teaches not to react.

The thing we have to figure out is how to interact for practical purposes when necessary. That and the challenge of keeping things civil and calm while still projecting assertiveness.

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^^^ When retaining the MBR and staying in the marital home, it is much more than a power play dynamic. It should be intended for the sole purpose of your children, your legal rights, and protecting your parental rights and their rights intact. Some of us on here who are quasi-legalistic clearly know this, but personal circumstances and BD sometimes cloud our judgement with emotions, until "the legal game" is really on. By all means use a mediator. The Family Court is a unchecked fictitious racket "court of equity" with no oversight incentivising support orders via federal funding. Check out the movie Divorce Corp. Very eye opening of the family court legal system, how it operates, how it is conflictive with Supreme Court Case Law, and Constitutional Law. Pretty much everything my brother was saying to me for over 18 years as a pro se litigant.

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Uni have you considered drafting a parental plan? There are plenty of templates online. If W agrees it can become legally binding in family court, and is usually good premptive measure, before filing for CS.

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Originally Posted by IHCLACS
Uni have you considered drafting a parental plan? There are plenty of templates online. If W agrees it can become legally binding in family court, and is usually good premptive measure, before filing for CS.

What is CS?

What concerns me most is custody. Your idea of a parenting plan sounds interesting. Best would be something we jointly type up and sign off, without lawyers. I don’t know if that’s binding or not. Perhaps such a plan would alleviate my concerns about trust.

As of this moment, I view accepting trial separation as a leap of faith. Faith that UC can handle this new limbo situation. Faith that it will be worth trying. Faith that in the process, I will either see progress in my R or not (especially in MC), and make good decisions for myself.

I believe a truly confident man can assess the nuances of his sitch and make appropriate decisions. In this case, I don’t think I need to lawyer up for the TS. For instance, I don’t need to worry about finances. I’m not going to make a fuss about it. Yeah, it’s expensive. OK. Not the end of the world. Money is traceable. My W is not going to go date. If she does, I’ll file for D. There’s what’s important and what’s not. I am not feeling adversarial about this. This is a leap of faith. The more legal I make it, the more I’m saying let’s just D. So what’s important? What I want in my life going forward is a great relationship with my kids, and to be a better UC. If my W wants to join us (shine the flashlight back), she’s welcome... if we aren’t too far down that path.

Now I’m going to ramble some more...

I also think I have the option to stop the TS at any time. So I can stay curious, calm, and make thoughtful, considered decisions on a day-by-day basis. What do I need to see in the TS to avoid D? Better communication. Change in the abusive narrative. And my W valuing my opinions and feelings again.

Is that possible? Is it worth trying? Do I want to be with someone who thinks (or ever thought) this of me?

Right now, I think yes (remotely), not sure, not sure.

My W started MC with abuse talk. She is afraid of me. She established that right away. This wasn’t an act, it is her truth. I can completely disagree with the reality of it, but it is her truth. When I said I wanted to “lean in” to the MR, she was stunned. She was confused. She did not know how to respond. Her trial separation request was clearly not thought out. Later that night, she wanted to talk to me. For the first time in 3 months. It was a peculiar and interesting talk. DB says don’t try to mind-read, so I won’t try to over analyze what all this means. It is a fact she expected me to ask for D. I do not believe she is diabolical enough to have this master plan to screw me over perfectly playing out right now. That’s not because I have rose-colored glasses on, it’s because I still view her as a hurt, scared human being, and I do have some empathy. It just so happens I’m the person she blames. I listened a lot, I validated.

Example: I came back from a business trip 2 months ago with a gift. She told me “You don’t need to get me a gift.” I said, “Oh I know I was just thinking of you and how much extra work it is when I”m gone an how I appreciate you” and she said “You don’t need to get me a gift.” Next trip, I get no gift. I figured, she’s already thinking of leaving me, don’t pressure her.

Guess what? She WANTED A GIFT. We hashed out why, and it’s pointless details, but I basically said “Thank you for sharing this with me, this is really good feedback because I want to know how you are feeling and why, so I can be more responsive.” The reality is she could have just told me why she didn’t want a gift the first time, and I would have understood and validated. And then gotten her a gift the second time. I mean... the communication issues... oof. But at least she shared something. There were other things like that. Mostly examples of misunderstandings which I tried to avoid defending, and just validated. Again, it’s all one-sided right now, UC is to blame.

So every day I need to revisit — is it possible for her to value me again? Is it worth trying? Do I want to be with someone who ever thought I was deserving of the abuse label?

And... are we making any progress...

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These are all great thoughts and valid concerns. Like my own sich. I see a great deal of confusion and flip flopping in our WAW'S and in ourselves. I think the same way we analysis their behaviors for consistency, we are analyzing there's.

Ex Uni WAW: "I want a gift, no I don't want a gift, you don't have to get me a gift. You are emotionally abusive to me. Why are you so distant from me? I want a seperation. You want to work on the marriage? I'm surprised."

You see all the contradictory there? She doesn't know what she wants. Your W like mine, probably wants a lot of the dynamics beteeen the two of you to change since she can no longer continue on like this. The both of you are looking for that change through actions, not words, and Im willing to bet that it is you that has to do all the changing in her perception? Right? After all... If she wanted to work on the communication and trust issues, she would actively be working torwards the M? No? I would save these talks for MC since perception, coping skills, and communications can become greatly skewed.

Dealing with these trusts, misperceptions, mind reading, and flip flopping is literally the double standard I speak of and is the definition of insanity. So deal with it on your own terms of your own actions, and leave their devices to theirs.

As far as a legal parenting plan. You can just Google it and download it. Its a simple template you can find anywhere.

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Originally Posted by IHCLACS


You see all the contradictory there? She doesn't know what she wants. Your W like mine, probably wants a lot of the dynamics beteeen the two of you to change since she can no longer continue on like this. The both of you are looking for that change through actions, not words, and Im willing to bet that it is you that has to do all the changing in her perception? Right? After all... If she wanted to work on the communication and trust issues, she would actively be working torwards the M? No? I would save these talks for MC since perception, coping skills, and communications can become greatly skewed.

.


Remember the quote "believe none of what she says and half of what she does". As IH says above if she wanted to work on the MR she would show it through action. Uni, sorry to be blunt but your actions are still being driven by hope of R. I understand the hope for R but in most cases getting to R is taking DB actions that are counter intuitive. Looking from the outside your head is still stuck in the fog. The sooner you can get out of the fog the better for you. Sorry to be blunt, I know this is hard but I see a lot of signs of your actions being driven by hope of R. The hope itself is not bad but remember what the vets advice about the counterintuitive approach that works.

Stay strong U!




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Quote


Remember the quote "believe none of what she says and half of what she does". As IH says above if she wanted to work on the MR she would show it through action. Uni, sorry to be blunt but your actions are still being driven by hope of R. I understand the hope for R but in most cases getting to R is taking DB actions that are counter intuitive. Looking from the outside your head is still stuck in the fog. The sooner you can get out of the fog the better for you. Sorry to be blunt, I know this is hard but I see a lot of signs of your actions being driven by hope of R. The hope itself is not bad but remember what the vets advice about the counterintuitive approach that works.

Stay strong U!



I agree. This takes time, a lot of time, and you'll have to go through a grieving process, because it is the end of your MR. The sooner you accept it, the sooner you can move to a place where you might be ready to see if you can start a new R with your W. What that R looks like is undetermined.

For example, even though my W is still here IHS, I have accepted that the old MR is gone. I dont think she believes me yet, when I have told her that during the last few times when she wanted to talk about the R. Because up until 3 months ago i was still trying to work on the R and she had left it 6 months even earlier than that.

Right now my goal is to be friends. (And yes I know I'll take all kinds of flak for that but I dont really care.) Everyone's sit is different. If it becomes more than that, I'll take that road when I get to it. But I cant think like that right now and i won't.

I know it [censored]. It's really unfair. But it's a problem that they have. We can be compassionate and empathetic, but this is a journey they have to take and we can only work on ourselves/kids right now.

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IHS is out of the question.

It’s either make a stand in my home or propose a separation plan. Or file myself.

I know I need the sep plan to be a good transition to divorce because I may bail out soon. I agree W is showing no initiative to change. We had 1 MC session that threw her off a bit. I’ll see next session or two where she’s at. If I’m still the abuser and completely at fault... whether it’s true or not this M is dead and we should D.

It’s hitting hard today while we play family with the kids. Everything is great except for us. I thought I was over the grief part but it’s hitting hard.

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I’ve been sitting 3 days thinking over the decision I need to make by next Wednesday.

My W feels emotionally abused from past events like my car pullover. The lingering effects are that she is hyper sensitive to my moods. And misreads me a lot. We need to by physically separate for some time. I am in agreement.

Looking back I don’t think she’s felt romantic towards me in about a year now though. I pressured her for affection, not all the time, but enough to destroy things.

And she feels like I’ve had other emotional issues going back 2-3 years.

I don’t think she is trying to screw me over. But I need to look at this and think... do I want to save this? Can it be saved? It seems impossible. For one I have to regain her trust emotionally. Tall order even if I continue the hard work I am putting in. Secondly she has to regain romantic feelings towards me.

And meanwhile I will feel shut out.

Is it worth it? I don’t know. Is it possible to do this? I don’t know.

I feel like I’m walking a tightrope. Fall off on one side and I’m in a divorce legal nightmare custody battle. Fall off the other side and I’m in a lousy separation which I shouldn’t have agreed to. Walk perfectly and I become a stronger person and heal... and MAYBE my W comes along. I’m just trying to walk that tightrope and be outcome-independent if I can. I guess I’m trying to say... I’m trying to pick a DB path that is not tethered to R, but also makes me feel good about my future no matter what happens. Right now I feel awful.

Idk... the emotional abuse victim piece makes it hard for me to feel any hope. I file for D and that reinforces the victim role.

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Soft 2x4 time here.

You can't win, U. There is no correct path, or better route to take.

Because it's not about you. And in her mind the R is over. Which is why she was "surprised" you wanted to work on the R.

It has to end in order for it to begin again as something new. In my sit, the old R was not working. I went kicking and screaming (not literally but you get the idea) fought for it tooth and nail, and in the end none of it mattered. I see it for what it was now. And things were not as good as I thought they were.

So I accepted it, got up, and started figuring out how this new thing will look. That's not to say I dont have moments of sadness or regret, but I make it a point to move past those thoughts now. Hard as it is to do.

And I thought I would draw the line at IHS. I came close to leaving. But something told me not to. I'm still not sure what it was or if I was mistaken. It was my gut instinct. For whatever reason I am still here, giving space in an 800 square ft home.

It can be done if you will it.

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IW - you are right the old R is over. Disruptive change must happen.

I really like your adaptability. These sitches get weird.


Journal-

Talked with W tonight for awhile about some things. I figured we didn’t need to wait until MC next week to feel each other out on this separation thing.

I’m glad we are talking more. Sometimes I make dumb mistakes but just actually talking about stuff is a vast improvement. We won’t fix our MR this way but communication absolutely must happen for our kids sake.

Flood of information. A lot of good stuff, some bad. I would say more but it’s all so subject to interpretation. At the end W asked me for a hug and gave me a 30 second tight hug. One that hasn’t happened in months. It means nothing for R. She is crystal clear what she wants to see from me - deal with my emotional issues.

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Originally Posted by unchien
IW - you are right the old R is over. Disruptive change must happen.

I really like your adaptability. These sitches get weird.


Thanks, man. Yeah they do, sometimes you just gotta roll.with it. I wrote a bunch of stuff on my thread the other day, venting and trying to process/work on myself. By the time I got to the third post I realized just how much I had had to adapt in my life, and the colossal amount of emotional baggage I had been/am carrying with me. That's not to say it was all my fault, because I did not realize I had that much baggage, but now I see very clearly there is an enormous amount of work i have to do on myself, and to grow as a person.

I also brought all that baggage into the relationship without being aware of it.

And yes, you're right - this is disruptive change. But it doesnt have to be negative change, it doesnt have to end with bruised egos and fights and battles over custody, just because that's the "standard". I told W that I am not fighting with her. I told her that regardless of how this turns out I still want to be able to talk to her. That is one of my goals and I cannot do that if we hate each other.

I think if you putthat in your head as a goal (not necessarily communicating it outloud to W, but just think it) it will have a positive impact on your life, wherever it takes you.

Stay strong smile

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You are a better man than me right now IW. If my wife leaves me, I am not sure I will ever be able to look at her again, let alone be at peace with her. She is stealing the love of my life from me, all of my memories and my dreams. I am afraid that I will hate her for that.


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Originally Posted by Destroyd
You are a better man than me right now IW. If my wife leaves me, I am not sure I will ever be able to look at her again, let alone be at peace with her. She is stealing the love of my life from me, all of my memories and my dreams. I am afraid that I will hate her for that.


I am no better than you, Des. This goal I have has come at a great cost emotionally. I think it comes at a great cost to everyone. That is not to say that I didnt feel like you, or like Unchien, at many times along the way. I still struggle with sadness, frustration, hurt. That's completely normal in situations like these.

I have made it my mission not to hate my W - I have let go of the outcome. I want what is best for me and what is best for her. Even if that is not us being together, as heart wrenching as that might be.

It the hardest thing I have ever done in my life. It will be for you too. But you, me, Unchien everyone here has the choice, has the ability to control how we act.

Concentrate on you. Get quiet, calm, clear, and grounded. As someone told me here once not long ago - be the man only a fool would leave. Dont tell her you're doing it, just get out there, get busy living. Let her see it. Once you do that, you'll have peace of mind that you've done all that you can possibly do.

P.s. apologies for the semi-hijack, U. Thanks smile

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I feel you Uni. Believe me I do. Those hypersenitivities to "emotional abuse" and the misreading creates serious trust issues, that Im not sure can be restored, and once those romantic feelings go away, i don't think they are coming back. Plus now because they want to divide and seperate for those reasons, it creates even more trust issues with us over them and our children because in both of our minds, both spouses are probably saying

"If they can break my trust and do this to me once, and seperate/divide the family/ have MLC/lose romantic feelings and re-neg on commitment/emotionally abuse me and our family, they can do it again." If they can do it once, they can do it again. Truth of the matter of the heart is forgiveness. Is it worth it? Who is it for? Why do we forgive? To reconcile, or to move on with our lives. The emotions. The decisions. I thought I was ready to pull the trigger on the D. I still am. But Im going to wait until physically seperated. Despite her being a kind and thoughtful person. She just doesn't think like me or understand me, and I don't think she wants to so why bother? Im going to focus on my kid, selling the house, getting my crap out and secured, my own place once its sold. Once I get to that place, and I am stable and not eating out of garbage cans and living out of my car, then I will decide to pull trigger on D. I see it happening either way. But i just want to make sure it's not some of my emotions making the decisions. Its going to take a miraculous amount of forgiveness to ever trust W or any woman for that matter for a very long time. I feel for my W. I do. Sometimes I want to reach out to let her know that I do. That I understand she is hurting too. We all cut off our own noses to spite our faces when we are hurt. In not going to reach out though, im not the one leaving, I said my piece for months and months, and now I'm just leaving it alone.

Uni I know you feel like. If W is feeling and doing these things. What the he'll is the point of continuing? But really. Do the S but wait on the D. Prepare with all the documents for it, but wait. Sometimes people do break down after 2 or 3 years of space and therapy, and realize, and sometimes they move on. I know its hard, but try to make your peace with where you are, and where you are going. I hope you can confidently decide if the trust issues are worth it or not and stick to it consistently.

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IW - it is eerie how much I feel the same as you right now. Will respond more later trying to enjoy Father’s Day with the kiddos.

IHC - sane I will respond more later. But yes it’s hard for me to see how my W could ever reach that point of forgiveness necessary for us to R anyhow. That doesn’t mean I need to cut bait today. We’ve had some good talks that have me more trusting of her intentions than say, 4 days ago.

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Journal -

We are going full force with trial separation.

I’m having a hard time with it, but I’m in agreement we need to separate quickly.

I’m really struggling with the “limbo-ness” of separation. My anxious insecurity and need for reassurance is itching away, itching away, itching away, just wanting to ask my W: “Are you really sure you want to give this a shot?”

I agree that she doesn’t trust me, nor does she view me romantically. And the anxiety kicks in: “If she feels that way, then why not just D instead of S?” I guess she could be frightened of my reaction to a D.

I am so WAS-focused. I know. It’s a stressful time. Regardless of S or D, we absolutely need to be apart right now. So maybe I need to focus on getting through the process of actually separating without falling apart. It’s tough. Maybe once we are separated she will file. Maybe not. Either she’s using S as a soft way to get me out of the house before D, or she sees potential. When we talk about the S, she certainly likes to focus on us reconciling if we fix our (mostly my) issues, and does not like to discuss the D path. I don’t know what to make of this.

I don’t think she’s playing games. If anything she’s super assertive since the BD. I appreciate the honesty. It has made for some conflict in parenting but it’s such an improvement to actually talk. But it is harsh and blunt.

It’s tough not to look back at April and May and wonder why my W wouldn’t just talk to me. Why does she recall those months as times where I would not talk to her? It’s so confusing and I want to call her out on it but then... DB kicks in. Or is it NGS? I bite my tongue. Or am I just listening well and validating?

I do trust her as a co-parent. As we’ve talked, I believe I can trust her (at least today) on custody and financial items. The actual separation does not concern me.

I agree that I have to work on my issues, and at the same time, I am frustrated with her denial of her own role. She’s not in 100% denial, but our conversations mostly revolve around what I need to change. I listen, validate. She’s right about a lot of them, some of them I think are joint issues between us. I need space away from her to sort it all out. I can see that. It’s really useful info when it comes to 180s.

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Uni you are literally mirroring everything I was going through over the last 7 months thinking and experience with the WAS. The W wasn't pushing for divorce but just separation. I kept on asking her well if you want separation and you're wulling to take this far? Why not just divorce? if there's no romantic feelings there? If we are going to get petty with one another? And divide everything equally? If we can't agree on anything? If I'm the one that has to do all the changing, am being held to constant double standards in all areas? Money, Trust, Child Rearing, Division of Labor, Relationships, Social Commitments and Dynamics, conflict in parenting, perceptions, etc etc. All the things that make up a marriage. I was willing to admit and commit to work on my short comings, acknowledge my failures and take responsibility for them, and own them, but they won't acknowledge theres? Uni all my R talks literally revolved around what I needed to change too, even if I brought hers up in all fairness for comparative reasons. My feelings, my thoughts, my experiences, my truth didn't matter to her. It's as if I wasn't even there, like I didn't even exist. But I was expected to validate all of her experiences. Her feelings, truth and experiences were always more important. I got to a point where I was pushing the questions of "If you are going to take it this far, why not divorce me?" I started to initiate the divorce myself, but couldn't follow through it just yet. Every increment in leading up to the separation, like packing up stuff, and putting stuff away, and moving it out, it's going to hurt it's going to feel like a thousand paper cuts, one at a time over a long period of time. It's going to emotionally psychologically and logically screw with your head from day to day.

What my experience has been is between reading everything and everyone's situation on on here, it's almost like you have to get so fed up with the lack of progress, that you become angry, then you slowly accept and become peaceful, then you get frustrated again and then you accept and then become peaceful. At least for me what I'm trying to say is every time I experienced something moving towards the separation. It makes me angry, then I accept it more with each passing incident. This is why everyone here tells you and tells us to stop focusing on them and start focusing on ourselves. There are things that we need to get done, there are things that we need to realize and internalize, there are things that we need to change, and there are things that we need to move forward with, whether we like it or not.

Remember what I said earlier and posting about how they feel like they're owed some kind of suffrage for putting up with us and all our flaws? How they said things probably along the lines of they've been trying for years and we just didn't see it. I still think this comes down to a communication issue between most men and women, how they think, how they feel, and how they communicate differently. Because men are more simple-minded we tend to brush these things under the rug. We keep a tally of some major instances but we don't keep a running tally of all the bad instances within a marriage. I think that men have more of a sentiment to history. History means something to them. But to the WAS. Their only focus in this phase of their life and where they are at mentally the only thing they are concerned with is the current and the future. And they don't see us in their future Ironicly because of the past. I don't know what this phenomenon is between men and women and why I keep seeing patterns of it in every situation on here. The rewriting of history etc... I unfortunately don't have the answers as to why this is the way it is or what the answers are. I will probably die trying to figure these R dynamics out. I think M and W just love differently. Men see the good from the past, and say "I want more
of that in the future." " If I like that experience I don't want to change, I want it to stay the same." I think that women think more along these lines...."Can the man in my life provide me with the future, the feelings, the experiences, and the provisions that I desire?" If not? Then their heart aches, they lose their identity, because they feel that they waste themselves for a lot of years on the relationship when they could have been improving themselves. I think maybe we are just wired and very differently in our thinking and how we love. I'm also noticing that men have a tendency to feel more hurt and angry and women have more of a tendency to feel more sad and resentful for time being wasted. Time is very important to them. Just nature. two opposites dealing with very different emotions and very different thinking

I think though from what I have gathered on here from everyone else's situation, that the best thing that we can do is just give them their space, accept what is going on in the current present reality and move forward without them. we have to make peace with it and we have to make the best of it and we have to carry on with our lives. we have to be okay with it internally and externally. Maybe overtime after physical separation, they will realize that they were flawed and learn from what they contributed to the downfall of the M. Maybe we will improve and they will see it over 2 or 3 years, maybe they won't? May be they will feel its just best to move on? Maybe they'll grow, may be will too? Maybe we will decided its just best to move on?

50% of marriages are successful 50% fail and 50% reconcile. So? I guess its just our imperative to make the best life possible for the circumstances for ourselves and our children. We cannot control another human being. Im trying to be nice, but not be a push over. Trying to accommodate and accept, but not be manipulated, guilted or shamed, trying to see reality for what it is with all relationships but not be a bitter misogynist. I hope this helps.

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U,

I assume you are moving forward with you moving out? Have you spoke to a lawyer? Also, I think for your own sanity you need to move forward as this is a soft divorce until you see signs that she is working on the marriage.

My IC/MC once told me that if two people were both committed to save the marriage she had a 100% success rate.

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Yes I’m assuming this is a soft divorce. I have enough legal advice and understanding to be comfortable with the murkiness. It adds to my stress but I don’t see filing for divorce as a “less stressful” option,

I don’t see signs that she is working on the M. Yesterday was pretty awful. I don’t want to get into the details because I have so much to deal with right now. And I’m not really looking for advice, just some support,

We did talk last night and I said we need to separate as soon as possible and maybe tell the kids this week.

MC this week will assuredly be more of my W being concerned with me around the kids. Yesterday I needed a little break to go for a walk and she told me she was worried about my safety. It’s going to be this way for awhile, addressing her worry about my emotional state. It’s true that I’m a mess, and it also feels unfair. I’m trying to be as unreactive as I can and just listen and validate . I know... it’s not MC it’s basically coparenting counseling. And I’m going to feel really ganged up on for awhile. My w will say she’s not trying to make me feel like it’s all my fault but then she hammers on everything that I’m doing wrong. We need to be apart. I need it for my own emotional recovery and she needs it too.

It is hard to be a rock right now. All the reasons my W wants to separate are due to my emotional issues. Being around my W worsens them. And going to MC is going to involve having all these issues brought up over and over and over for awhile. We NEED this counseling to parent better. I NEED my W to communicate with me, not for recon, but because my kids need it. The easy thing to do would be file tor D and cancel the MC to avoid the pain. I think MC will drive us towards D more quickly. The pain is going to worsen for me for awhile.

The one lesson I’ve taken to heart here is don’t act on emotion. Play the long game. I need to pull myself together here, for myself and my kids. I worry I am depressed. I’m fighting hard. I’m trying to keep a FT job. All the GAL and 180 stuff is taking a back seat. I need some short term strategies. Meditation I’m holding onto. And validation as best as I can although It feels sometimes like my W is hammering away. The more I tolerate feeling beaten up she eventually reveals something useful. When I took a break she said she was worried what I would do on my own if the kids were being crazy. I said I wouldn’t take a break obviously. She said sometimes S7 hits, what will you do if he does that? I said I’m trying to both reassure you and not be defensive and that feels impossible. Eventually she said “what I need to hear from you right now are 3 other things you could do in that situation if you are alone with the kids”.

It was just overall not a great day for our MR. I expect things to only get worse for awhile. I feel hyper emotional (sadness) around the kids and need to stifle that.

IHC you said it about the thousand paper cuts. Offer to help me pack up stuff? Offer to help with searching for places? Even the request for trial separation instead of a divorce... every interaction.

Somehow I need to pull it together and just accept all this s%#* is happening and not be so sad and anxious. Just deal with it. I need to find a way to reach acceptance and turn things positively, some strategy or coping mechanism that will work for me minute by minute.

I should end with some positive stuff. We have agreed to try to share the kids as close to 50/50 as we can. I’m going to take them for a week by myself somewhere this summer. Financially my W said she trusts me more than anyone else - implying if we D she would prefer to just have me come up with an asset split plan and she would trust me. We agreed to just run large expenses by each other during the separation. She said I could come to the house for dinner sometimes and I suggested we instead have a family dinner at a local restaurant. We had a great Father’s Day dinner at home.

I endeavor to reach a point where this doesn’t feel devastating. All this “woe is me” stuff does me no good.

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U,

I'm really sorry you are going through this right now. I promise you it will get better. Excercising and walking are the best things to help you through it. One day at a time.

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So you are moving out, and she doesn't work and is home with 3 small kids?

Even if you talked to a lawyer about this I would strongly, strongly, strongly advise you to go ahead and file for legal separation or divorce with custody and support agreements in place BEFORE you move out.

The issue is that right now you actually have some power because she is desperate to get away from you and will give up long-term outcomes for this short-term goal. BUt as soon as you move out you are trapped and she is sitting pretty. She will have every motivation to keep this the status quo forever, so you can expect that she will never get a job, she will block any attempt to sell the house, eventually OM will move into your house and you will be paying her and OM through the nose forever, even indirectly as you will end up paying for all your kids college tuition while they are traveling the world. I have seen a ton, ton of guys come through years after their separation/soft divorce trying to extricate themselves from this type of situation and there is usually nothing they can do because they agreed to this years earlier in misguided attempts to placate their WW or WAW hoping to nice them back.

You need to accept that you cannot control whether you get divorced or reconcile. But I can tell you that either way, you can and will be happy again unless you allow yourself to be trapped into a bad situation with custody and finances.

So, my firm advise is to put yourself in the strongest possible position for either outcome. Get a legal 50-50 custody and financial agreement in place before you leave, and make that a condition on leaving. Impute full time income for her (if you are gone, she is working!), standard child support, limit any alimony to a couple of years, future costs like sports, cars, college are specified as 50-50. I would also strongly, strongly suggest you sell a house immediately even if you take a hit in doing so. Again, far cheaper in the long run to take a hit now than to pay indefinitely and then take a hit later.

Depending on your locality, this legal protection is going to be either strong legal separation or filing divorce. That is really just semantics. I will honestly say that filing divorce does not really make it any less likely that you would reconcile, but it does reduce the chances of getting stuck in limbo purgatory.

If you do this, you will be able to move on and I would say there is a 90% chance that in less than a year you will look back at your posts and not recognize this beaten down guy who put up with this treatment.

And, even if this sounds terrible to you now and you can only think of reconciling, what do you think is more likely to happen? She decides she doesn't like taking all of your money, and using you as a convenient babysitter for her new, fully financed single lifestyle? Or, she has to support herself and learns the hard way that single motherhood isn't really all that great.

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LH19,

Thank you so much for the kind words. I really needed that. I thought having a couple months pre-BD to prepare would help. But this still feels like a new low.

I'm fighting the urge to make a knee-jerk emotional decision. I know emotions cloud judgment. I know it's not fair that 100% of the blame is focused on me right now (or it feels that way). I'm hurt.

Forget recon. I am fighting my urge to make decisions that are entirely based on avoiding pain or anxiety:

- File for D
- Ask W: "Do you really think you could ever recon with me?"
- Ask W: "Are you making this a two-step process to let me down easy because you are scared?"
- Ask W: "Are you making this a two-step process because you are worried how I will parent the kids and you want to observe and document me?"
- Ask W: "Why do I feel like you are ganging up on me?"
- Ask W: "Why do we go to MC if it is all about me making changes?"

Things are just going to be very unresolved for awhile. I'll keep working at being okay with that.

I know I have some emotional regulation issues. Throughout my life they haven't been particularly severe. My MR issues have exacerbated things over the past 2 years and now life stress has hit a new high. I need to just stay calm and get through this separation process and then revisit where I am at with my W. I'm going to hear a lot about my emotional regulation from my W during MC, and I need to carefully assess what is fair and real, and what is not, because there is some of both. I figure it will take a good month just to move and get somewhat settled. It's going to be hard. It's going to be easy to sink into a depression. Maybe I'm already in one, I don't know, but I need to fight it. One day at a time.

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U -

Take time to breathe, man. I know how you feel - I was in the exact same place as you 3 months ago. The world was spinning and there were hits coming in every direction, even from other sources other than your W that you would never expect. It seems like it is all piling up on you and you dont know where to start.

Take one thing you know you need to do and do that. Even if it's just a small thing - do that. Nothing you do.right now will please your W.

That's not to be mean, that's not to be rude, it just is that way. Your W is in MLC now, or at least WAS. She is angry and full of resentment and needs reasons to justify her decision to split up. So dont give her any.

She doesnt mean to do it, but its part of the whole thing, the whole cycle. My W did it too, I see it now in hindsight. Denial first, then Anger. Right now my W is in Replay/Withdrawal with bursts of Anger.

Minimize contact as much as possible. Dont be mean or unkind - just businesslike or neighborly. Dont initiate conversations unless necessary. Start really DBing. It will help a lot.

Stay strong man smile

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U, sorry you are going through this. I know how you feel. I am a few months ahead of you in my sitch and it only seems to get worse. Sometimes I wonder if I should just give up and other times I have lost my will to DB and let W know how I feel. Makes me feel better short term, I know it is wrong to get emotional but it is hard to stay strong all the time. The one thing I have tried to do is not hold on tight to the rope even if I dont drop it. I see it slip through my fingers, grasp it for a moment and let go again. While not DB by the book I at least DB 90% of the time. It is hard to go through this when our lives have focused on putting W and kids first. It hurts a lot to see if also being demolished to pieces and not being able to do anything about it. There is no winning for anyone here

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I have to say that I strongly agree with fade's comment above. If you are considering moving out, I would heed that advice to the last letter.


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Originally Posted by fade
So you are moving out, and she doesn't work and is home with 3 small kids?

Even if you talked to a lawyer about this I would strongly, strongly, strongly advise you to go ahead and file for legal separation or divorce with custody and support agreements in place BEFORE you move out.

The issue is that right now you actually have some power because she is desperate to get away from you and will give up long-term outcomes for this short-term goal. BUt as soon as you move out you are trapped and she is sitting pretty. She will have every motivation to keep this the status quo forever, so you can expect that she will never get a job, she will block any attempt to sell the house, eventually OM will move into your house and you will be paying her and OM through the nose forever, even indirectly as you will end up paying for all your kids college tuition while they are traveling the world. I have seen a ton, ton of guys come through years after their separation/soft divorce trying to extricate themselves from this type of situation and there is usually nothing they can do because they agreed to this years earlier in misguided attempts to placate their WW or WAW hoping to nice them back.

You need to accept that you cannot control whether you get divorced or reconcile. But I can tell you that either way, you can and will be happy again unless you allow yourself to be trapped into a bad situation with custody and finances.

So, my firm advise is to put yourself in the strongest possible position for either outcome. Get a legal 50-50 custody and financial agreement in place before you leave, and make that a condition on leaving. Impute full time income for her (if you are gone, she is working!), standard child support, limit any alimony to a couple of years, future costs like sports, cars, college are specified as 50-50. I would also strongly, strongly suggest you sell a house immediately even if you take a hit in doing so. Again, far cheaper in the long run to take a hit now than to pay indefinitely and then take a hit later.

Depending on your locality, this legal protection is going to be either strong legal separation or filing divorce. That is really just semantics. I will honestly say that filing divorce does not really make it any less likely that you would reconcile, but it does reduce the chances of getting stuck in limbo purgatory.

If you do this, you will be able to move on and I would say there is a 90% chance that in less than a year you will look back at your posts and not recognize this beaten down guy who put up with this treatment.

And, even if this sounds terrible to you now and you can only think of reconciling, what do you think is more likely to happen? She decides she doesn't like taking all of your money, and using you as a convenient babysitter for her new, fully financed single lifestyle? Or, she has to support herself and learns the hard way that single motherhood isn't really all that great.


Fade - Thanks for the feedback. I won't deny that I am taking a leap of faith here from a legal perspective. I also won't deny that I am likely to look back a year from now and wonder why I put up with this treatment.

I do think you are being quite alarmist in this post, but trust me I have thought about all these fears as well.

A few points:

1. Legal separation = Divorce in my mind. If trust is at that point, it's time to divorce. My W and I have had several talks the last week. I am definitely working on understanding her viewpoint so I can assess my level of trust. I would not accept trial separation without some basic level of trust on the 2 primary challenges: custody and financials.

2. W has an advanced degree and is restarting work next month. I think I'm fine - imputed income, etc. would all come into play long-term.

3. Custody - it is EXTREMELY touchy to address this right now with W. But we are working on something that I think I will be comfortable with. Part of our schedule is going to be to help her get back to work, which is good for both of us. I'm going to take some PTO with the kids by myself this summer. As long as we have an arrangement that would not materially affect my custody rights long-term, I am okay.

4. Living arrangements - well, I'm moving into a short-term place. It needs to feel like a 2nd home to my kids.

I fully get that I may be confusing "trust" with "please please please I hope we can recon". I choose to trust my W. I think that is best for my kids. I think she has solid values, and would not try to separate me from my kids. She clearly wants us to work on coparenting better. I choose to believe I have the internal strength to get through this without having to legally protect myself, at least today. I know my rights, and know there is some gray area by going this route. So be it.

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Originally Posted by Maika
I have to say that I strongly agree with fade's comment above. If you are considering moving out, I would heed that advice to the last letter.

Maika - Are there any parts specifically that concern you? The custody, or the financial, or just "all of the above."

I hope I am not confusing "trust" with "hoping for recon".

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U - All of it, you should not be thinking about recon at all. If you are thinking about recon then you will allow your desire to recon over shadow what is in your best financial interests.

When my XW moved out we came to a 50-50 custody arrangement along with a financial agreement that was essentially accepted by the judge as well. I was lucky that we did not have to put any formal documentation in place as we both honored what we discussed.

Don't move out without something formal in place. I can tell you with three small kids and you being the bread winner you will more than likely be paying alimony and obvious child support. It will be greatly reduced, probably in half, if you get 50/50.


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TBSakaJ9,

So you separated without something formal, but wish in retrospect that you had something formal?

What factors do you think allowed you and your XW to stick to your informal agreement? Did you end up going through mediation?

My W and I have committed to going to MC (probably should call this "couples" or "co-parenting" counseling at this point). I think this is a critical piece to maintaining trust in each other. I know things may change along the way.

Financial - my W told me the other night that if we D she would rather have ME split up our assets than the lawyers. That she trusts how I have managed our money in the past. Obviously, this is informal. I thought she was nuts. Even I wouldn't trust myself to do it correctly.

Custody - written or not, if we trial separate and let's say we have a 50/50 custody arrangement (informally), that plays when it comes to the law. As long as that's what we're doing during the trial separation I am not really concerned.

The bigger piece in support is spousal support in my state. As much as I don't care about money right now, and it sounds cold, it will only benefit me to assist my W in getting back to work during the separation.

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Based on how my XW and I communicated we did not put anything formal into place but when she moved out we came to a financial agreement on our own and custody arrangement. If my XW and I could not come to an agreement or I felt like she was not considering my best interests as well then I would have pursued something formal.

We did not go through mediation. My XW and I sat down at the kitchen table and hammered it out with no mediation or lawyers. We only paid a lawyer to write up what we agreed upon. In the end I got 50/50, kept our family home and pay my XW $850/mth until my kids are 18.

It all depends on the ability of you and your wife to agree with each other. If you both can truly work and be considerate of each other it will save you thousands of dollars. That said if either one of you feel like you are being taken advantage of or if she gets outside council from her parents, friends, etc. she could do a complete 180.

My XW and I did not have anything major to divide up outside of retirement, savings, and a couple of other things that was done pretty easily. No joint businesses, property or anything major like that so it was pretty cut and dry.

I know you want to assist your W, etc. but remember this if you don't listen to anything else. WHAT YOU ARE SIGNING UP FOR WILL IMPACT YOU FOR THE NEXT 15 TO 20 YEARS AFTER YOU HAVE MOVED ON AND ARE COMPLETELY DETACHED FROM YOUR WIFE.


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U, Fade is not being alarmist at all. He is offering good, sound advice based on having seen many similar situations play out over the years. As you'll recall many of us suggested not moving out in the first place, but I completely agree with him that if you do move out, you should put an agreement in place because once you move out you have zero negotiating leverage and will have to live with whatever scraps your W decides to throw your way.

I am not sure why you see a written separation agreement as divorce. That's not it at all. It is simply an agreement working out the details of the separation. It's common practice. I did one with my XW when she moved out. We didn't get D'd until nearly 2 years later. You need to quit looking at everything emotionally and detach and look at it like a business transaction because that's really what it is.


Me: 60 w/ S18, D24, D27

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I think J9 just elaborated on what you were asking U. I understand that you're aware of not confusing 'trust' with 'hoping for recon'. If there's that 'trust', then there shouldn't be a big problem hammering out the details in an amicable manner. the details have long term consequences. This is separating your emotions from what practically needs to get done.


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Originally Posted by TBSakaJ9
Based on how my XW and I communicated we did not put anything formal into place but when she moved out we came to a financial agreement on our own and custody arrangement. If my XW and I could not come to an agreement or I felt like she was not considering my best interests as well then I would have pursued something formal.

TBSakaJ9 - Thank you for your feedback. It sounds like you went through a process which I hope to do as well, but need to tread carefully.

What did you have to agree on financially during your separation?

Custody is my priority right now. If I feel like she is not considering my best interests on custody, it will be a huge red flag. So far this is a work in progress. It's complicated.

During the 6 months, we have summer (kids out of school) and fall (S7 and D5 in school, D3 in pre-school 2 0.5 days a week where the parent has to go). W is planning to go back to work PT.

I want to come up with something that accommodates her work plans, my D3's pre-school schedule, and D5/S7's after-school activities, and yet meets my custody goals. W has agreed to share her detailed schedule plans so we can discuss this in detail. She also agreed to my request to take the kids on vacation this summer, which helps with the natural imbalance because they are at home all day every day this summer. It also depends when I move, I may take some Friday's off, etc. At least as of today, I think we can work something out. But it needs to be done before I move. I've been quite clear that I need to be comfortable with our plan for the kids in order to do this.

Financial I don't really worry about. We agreed to run large expenses (above a fixed dollar amount) by each other. We don't plan to split accounts, etc. Not to be crude about it, but we are both saying we are willing to spend a large sum of money to attempt this separation. Financially it's bad for both of us. She would be better off today if she went straight to D. She could demonstrate more custody, and zero income. So again not to be crude, I'm fairly trusting on the financial stuff. Money is traceable, etc.

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What we agreed upon was who would pay for what bills, my XW works but would not have been able to afford to move out if she did not receive any money from me. Either I pay and she moves out or I don't pay and she stayed in the house and we did in house separation. At the time it was worth me paying for things to get her out of the house, it helped me detach quicker and I knew that I would end up giving her support any way if we were divorced so essentially we were living like we were divorced.

We had to agree on Custody, debt, 401k split, cars, other retirement savings, who would claim what kid on taxes, savings, life insurance and their college savings.

You should worry about the financials it sets a precedence.

Lastly, my XW never waivered from what we agreed to when she moved. She was nice, accommodating and did not put up a fight...….all she wanted was OUT. As soon as she moved out she immediately started dating and exploring the single life. Just prepare yourself, once they are out of the house or you are out of the house the game changes!


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TBSakaJ9 -

You agreed upon all that (debt, 401k split, cars, tax claims, life insurance) before the separation, or the divorce?

Right now I am the sole income earner. I'm paying for me to move out of the house, and I'm paying for her to live in the house.

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Sorry if I sounded too alarmist, its just alarm bells go off in my head when guys are doing what you are contemplating because I see them years later and they feel like they sold their lives away for nothing. So, maybe you trust her, but I don't!

So, how about this - try to separate issues into three completely separate mission areas. You should approach each mission completely separately, because if you don't you will be overwhelmed, out of control and not accomplish anything. Guys do better, feel better, are better, everything is better when you have a mission you can tackle and accomplish!

Mission 1 Unchien improvement
Mission 2 Legal/business accomplishments
Mission 3 Relationship stuff


Write down a list of specific actions you can do to in each mission area. Make schedules, arrangements, budgets for each action. This should be a checklist that you go through one by one, and at the start of each day you should have a list of which actions you will achieve that day, and then go out and nail them.

I will even cheat and give you some common actions that I have seen work well:

Mission 1 Unchien improvement: This is all about focusing on being the best you, the best father, healthy, a strong performer at work, a fulfilling hobby/social life.

Find a fun thing to do with and to teach your kids every single day, google fun, new stuff like making up a ridiculous sport, kazoo concerts, pancake decorating contests, sidewalk chalk art gallery. Document all of this in a journal. Take and share pictures. Eat well, learn to prepare healthy simple meals, cut out unhealthy stuff, get into heavy lifting and HIIT, ideally something social like crossfit. Improve your wardrobe, research or find someone other than your wife to help you dress 2 levels more formal and 10 years younger. Look for social interactions, join meetup, make an effort to be more outgoing, start conversations in line, ask people questions about themselves, smile and look them in the eye. Talk to your Dr about TEMPORARY anxiety or SSRI meds if absolutely necessary. Stuff like this.

Mission 2 Legal/business accomplishments: This is all about custody, child support, spousal support, work requirements, asset/debt division, long-term child costs. Your mission is to be a confident, financially successful, involved father. You will guarantee that you are and always will be the father figure for your kids, financially independent and secure. So, get separation agreements in writing, ideally filed, but at minimum well documented. Make sure you are not on the hook, nor are you setting precedent for anything you are not comfortable continuing from a custody or financial standpoint for 18 years. Write down long-term financial and career plans, and define what financial success means to you. Is it a fancy house, vacations? How will you pay for college, retirement. How will you improve your career? Can you take an online certification or learn a skill that prepares you to do the job you want to accomplish these things.

I can promise you that forking over your fatherhood and financial security as some sort of olive branch/trust exercise is not going to achieve anything good for mission 3. In fact, it only results in you lowering your value as a viable relationship option.


Mission 3 Relationship stuff. This includes reconciliation/divorce, regaining her trust, helping her feelings etc.

Accomplish Missions 1 and 2.

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The only thing we agreed upon during separation was custody and the monthly bills (who was going to pay what). We also split our savings account immediately. I also took away our joint credit card and eventually her debt card to our joint checking account. I did that once she opened up her own checking account and had her check re-directed to deposit at that location.

I would highly recommend splitting things financially if you separate. You don't want to look in your checking account and see a debt at 2 am in the morning at a bar.


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Originally Posted by TBSakaJ9
The only thing we agreed upon during separation was custody and the monthly bills (who was going to pay what). We also split our savings account immediately. I also took away our joint credit card and eventually her debt card to our joint checking account. I did that once she opened up her own checking account and had her check re-directed to deposit at that location.

I would highly recommend splitting things financially if you separate. You don't want to look in your checking account and see a debt at 2 am in the morning at a bar.

Thanks. I need to think about this. Right now all income comes from me, she will ramp up working soon but probably won't make income for a few months. We agreed to run any expense above $X by each other.

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You can agree to give her X amount per month and Venmo it into her account, her own account that has no ties to you. That is what she gets and not a penny more.

Trust me you do not want to know what she is doing. Joint accounts also show your afraid and scared to let go.

I would also advise to not move out. If I had moved out of my house my XW would have been bringing guys over immediately into our home when I was with our daughters in my apartment. SMH.

Don't emasculate yourself.


Married 14, Together 17
M: 44, W: 43, D: 8, D: 6
M: 46, W: 45. D: 10. D: 8 (CUR)
Bomb Dropped: 5/28/2017
Separation Date: 6/17/2017
Divorce Filed: 2/7/2018
Divorce Final: 4/12/2018
Joined: May 2019
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Fade - Incredible post. You got it right - guys like clearly stated goals and missions! So much good stuff in your post.

Mission 1 has been severely under-prioritized this week, and I need to address that.

My favorite part of your post was THIS:

Originally Posted by fade
I can promise you that forking over your fatherhood and financial security as some sort of olive branch/trust exercise is not going to achieve anything good for mission 3. In fact, it only results in you lowering your value as a viable relationship option.

I am afraid of standing up for myself. I am afraid my W will balk if I ask for something written. And that's no way to live.

All I really want is a basic parenting plan in writing. Early on I'm sure W and I will agree to deviate and adjust as needed, but I need something to make me feel safe. Just like she needs the separation to feel safe right now.

Financial items don't bother me so much. She could clear out our checking, it's only 5% of our assets. It's all traceable, and I have access to other money. I'm just not that worried. We already agreed on excessive expenses. We are already running items by each other even today.

If I can go into this separation thinking: "Either way, UC will be fine" then I'm ready to do this.

My last thought here: I don't think my W has thought through any of this. I think she is just "buying time" because she thought that I was going to ask for the D. It leaves me lacking confidence. She lost romantic feelings for me almost a year ago. It's really hard to envision a path back. I feel like there is a massive burden on me that she is pointing out, and even then there are no guarantees she would have feelings again.

If I didn't know Sandi's Rule #33 by heart I would give up.

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Wow this the meat and potatoes of priorities. Practically a playbook. Great advice to Uni.

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Spiraling into the Upside Down

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