My kids are out of school. I work FT. My W moves, I don't see how the kids stay at the house. They need their mom. As awful as this situation is, they need her as primary caretaker.
As a divorced dad who obtained primary custody, consider that the separation sets up the long-term deal. Courts tend to maintain the status quo. If you divorce, how will you care for you kids over the summer?
a) Work From Home when you can b) Leverage summer enrichment camps (sports, art, stem) c) Part-time nanny, child-care, or au pair d) Full-time nanny or childcare
Assuming you eventually want 50/50 custody, can you take 50/50 custody now and leverage one of those?
Since the money is shared, technically, you're only paying for half these expenses!
Going to Basketball or Little Gym or Minecraft camp for 6 hours and then spending the morning/evening with Dad is arguably better for the kids than always spending full days with Mom. It also may give her a better idea of what the long-term reality is like of splitting the family down the middle.
(Reality may be a bit harder, since she may also have to work to support her home.)
Custody is the big concern about separation for me. Especially with the abuse narrative that my W may play. So I am well aware if I go down this route I need to establish a solid custody agreement with my W.
And I also agree that separation needs to look more like a true separation. Maybe we agree to meet for dinner as a family once a week, but other than that, I don't see any sense or value in playing family at the house. Confusing for the kids, and it's not a true separation.
You have great feedback already so I will not repeat it. You may want to think about this one below though
Originally Posted by unchien
Re: the house - if we D, it has to be sold. We can't afford the mortgage if we split income.
If you move out will you not have to pay for the house AND your new living arrangements while splitting the same income?
MLCxH - there's no splitting income, it's all my income at the moment. But yes, if we separate, we are going to be living beyond our means for up to 6 months. It will be expensive. W may not get that yet.
You can both manage to parent the kids, be roomates until: 1. She gives you evidence she really wants to work. 2. You decide you've had enough and file 3. You give yourself small timelines that you want to work toward. (ie by the end of Summer let's see where we are)
What my W has essentially told me (and I tread carefully here because words can betray true feelings, and her feelings themselves may be fluctuating for all I know):
- She is really confused what she wants, but she is not happy with how things are. - She feels fear around me. - She does not trust me, in particular as a romantic partner. - She doesn't even know if space would help or not, she just requested it. - She said she wants to see improvement on my emotional issues - this is confusing as heck, because I have been so even-keel lately, but I will keep going to IC and working on myself.
Now, I would argue basically all of the above are W's own issues. I cannot really do anything to change how she feels, other than be the best UC I can be. You might say she's feeding me BS, but then she makes statements about how we used to be, and how she wants to get back to that, and really doesn't want D. Sigh...I don't know what to believe anymore. Just a lot of information to process.
Let's set aside the "stay in the house" issue for one moment... I think it's clear where the forum mostly stands, and also clear that I'm waffling, and I'm aware of the dangers of ignoring this advice.
My W just told me directly we cannot be roommates and manage the kids. She will not accept that. Technically we are officially separated because she asked for it in M. I do agree on your 3 bullets being critical:
1. Evidence she wants to work - what UC wants to see is that we continue to go to MC and W gets off the abuse narrative and onto the "we need to communicate better" narrative. This will be a work in progress. I also need to see her accept the consequences of separation -- (again let's ignore the house for a moment) -- no "playing family" for instance. If abuse keeps coming up it's going to scare the s@#$ out of me that she's going to make some move for 100% custody or something and it will push us right out of being able to trust each other... because I also lack the necessary trust to build an intimate MR right now.
2. This option exists at any time, for both of us.
3. Small timelines - part of MC would include this. The MC seemed like he would help drive this as well. A 6 month separation is not "let's put our heads in the sand and then look up 6 months from now". I agree. MC is a great way to measure weekly progress.
Now what exactly are small timelines and measurable goals? I don't know. Need to think more about that. But yeah we can't wait until November and say "How are things going?"
Actually... I have zero clue how reconciliation even works in a separation situation. Honestly. Do couples reinitiate date night after awhile? I don't get it at all. It seems like the very nature of separation makes it almost impossible to rekindle anything. Or is ti just one spouse decides "Hey let's move back in together it seems like things are better."
The no dating thing is my rule if we separate. We didn’t even discuss it yet. I doubt it will be an issue.
Won't be an issue because you have no way to enforce it.
Her: "Okay I won't date while we are separated."
Later.......
You: "I found out you've been dating! That is a violation of our agreement." Her: "Oh, oops."
You are trying to control her. That is pressure. It will be your undoing.
If it isn't an issue, then don't put that in the separation agreement.
Good point. Maybe best unspoken for now.
It raises an interesting point... I also feel like if we separate in my circumstances that it's best making this informal as possible. I know I am on edge about being served D papers. After last night, I think my W is as well. So the less we can wrap this up as some legal thing with terms it's probably for the best. It does expose me to some risk in particular with custody, yes, but so be it. If the point is to repair trust, legal docs aren't going to help.
Are you saying that you feel your W is on edge about you serving her papers? Please, please, trust me she knows there is zero chance right now and to be quite blunt right now she would love it if that happened. Years down the road she could tell your children that you filed for D.
I wish there was a way we could convince you that if you move out it may be the biggest mistake you ever made in your life. If her main goal is to reconcile, why does she have a name and number of a lawyer already.
I lived in IHS in the end for 15 months and it wasn't that stressful at all. Kids I don't think even really knew anything was wrong. Have family dinner together then went our separate ways. We even started having sex again the last 7 months until she left.
The key is to drop the rope and accept that it's over. If she starts moving toward and making and effort then you can reevaluate. All the BS she fed you last night we have heard on here 100s of times and I think Steves is the only one that turned around. He DBed 100% by the book and if he would have moved out he would be D by now.
Remember reconciliation is always a possibility. My friends parents got back together after 35 years.
But what has resonated with me from everyone here: LH, Steve, AS and others is - you're not in a position to negotiate or win your marriage back anymore by conceding or acquiescing to her needs.
Exactly right.
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My W is a SAHM, I'd feel horrible to do anything that feels like kicking her out financially BUT this is the family agreement we talked about before we even had kids. I'm not going to feel guilty about me bringing home all the money and her not having the opportunity to because we agreed she'd raise the kids at home.
I think a lot of us go through this and it's due to NGS. We at least in part buy into our WAS's claims that it's our fault, we were abusive or dismissive or didn't meet their needs or whatever. But at the end of the day we are the ones fighting to save our M's and they are the ones FIGHTING HARD TO END THEM. They may do it by withholding sex, or treating us like crap, or accusing us of things we never did, or rewriting history, or threatening to take our kids away. Or all of above and more. But what a lot of us should really wrap our heads around is THEY ARE THE BAD GUY HERE, not us. All we're guilty of is ignorance. Now that we know there were problems, we're willing to change. But they won't even crack the door open to that. Sandi is a big proponent of playing hardball with WAW's and WW's in particular. Why? Because it's the only thing that works. The WAW has lost respect for her H and he is not going to get it back by appeasing her or making this easy on her. The more he rolls on her demands, then the more pathetic she thinks he is and the less respect and attraction she has for him.
Here is the attitude every LBS should take- "I made some mistakes, I own those mistakes, and I vow to correct those mistakes. But I am not the one wrecking this M, my spouse is and she needs to be held accountable for that."
HELD ACCOUNTABLE. Quit giving your rogue wives free passes on this guys. What have they done to deserve keeping the home, the kids, and half or more of YOUR paycheck.
U, all this crap your W is feeding you about being confused and not knowing what she wants and blah blah blah is SCRIPT. We call it script because nearly all of them do it. What do you think we mean when we say believe nothing they say and only half of what they do? We mean don't buy into the script. She has a hidden agenda that you are not a party to. She has a plan of action that she is following step-by-step.
Step 1- pull back and treat U like the plague to prepare him for S and D. Step 2- rally others to my cause- find a "marriage counselor" that is pro-divorce and willing to help with BD Step 3- BD him with the help of the MC Step 4- push him out of the house with minimal impact to me, dangle the carrot to him (I'm confused, I just need time, later who knows what may happen, just give me space and we'll see what happens) to maximize financial support I get from him Step 5- file for D, continue dangling the carrot (I'm open to sex, maybe D will give me the time and space I really need, there's still hope, this may be a new beginning for us) to soften him up to give me a big settlement Step 6- move OM into family home (may move this to step 4A or 5A but if I do I'll have to ramp up the gaslighting)
U, you can't stop her plans, her agenda. But you CAN make it on YOUR terms instead of hers.
Originally Posted by unchien
What my W has essentially told me (and I tread carefully here because words can betray true feelings, and her feelings themselves may be fluctuating for all I know):
- She is really confused what she wants, but she is not happy with how things are. SCRIPT - She feels fear around me. SCRIPT - She does not trust me, in particular as a romantic partner. SCRIPT - She doesn't even know if space would help or not, she just requested it. SCRIPT - She said she wants to see improvement on my emotional issues SCRIPT
- this is confusing as heck, because I have been so even-keel lately, but I will keep going to IC and working on myself.
It's confusing because it's BS. It's all excuses to further her agenda. She has no intentions, and I mean ZERO of giving you a chance. She gives you a list, you work on those things, she gives you another list. Eventually she's got you afraid to chew with your mouth open or put the toilet paper roll on because you might get it backwards.
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You might say she's feeding me BS, but then she makes statements about how we used to be, and how she wants to get back to that, and really doesn't want D.
SCRIPT See what I said above about "dangling the carrot".
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Sigh...I don't know what to believe anymore. Just a lot of information to process.
That's what we are here for, to help you navigate this.
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1. Evidence she wants to work - what UC wants to see is that we continue to go to MC and W gets off the abuse narrative and onto the "we need to communicate better" narrative. This will be a work in progress. I also need to see her accept the consequences of separation -- (again let's ignore the house for a moment) -- no "playing family" for instance. If abuse keeps coming up it's going to scare the s@#$ out of me that she's going to make some move for 100% custody or something and it will push us right out of being able to trust each other... because I also lack the necessary trust to build an intimate MR right now.
2. This option exists at any time, for both of us.
3. Small timelines - part of MC would include this. The MC seemed like he would help drive this as well. A 6 month separation is not "let's put our heads in the sand and then look up 6 months from now". I agree. MC is a great way to measure weekly progress.
U, you seem to be in the grip of a delusion that you are in a position to work on the M with her via MC. NO NO NOOOOO that is not an option right now. Let me remind you that she has a clearcut agenda and she's ticking off the boxes right now. Notice what is NOT on her agenda? Work on the M. It's not on her radar and won't be for a long time. Probably over a year. Let me also remind you the MC just assisted her in BD'ing you. This is not someone that's going to help you rebuild the M.
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Now what exactly are small timelines and measurable goals? I don't know. Need to think more about that.
No you don't. You need to think about what you need to do to protect yourself from her, and to make yourself a force of nature, the spouse only a fool would leave. Time to start DB'ing.
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Actually... I have zero clue how reconciliation even works in a separation situation. Honestly. Do couples reinitiate date night after awhile? I don't get it at all. It seems like the very nature of separation makes it almost impossible to rekindle anything. Or is ti just one spouse decides "Hey let's move back in together it seems like things are better."
No the LBS quits putting up with the WAS's BS and leaves her alone and goes about the business of building a life separately from her. He gives her REAL time and space. She does her own thing and eventually discovers it's not the nirvana she expected. She looks back and sees a confident, sexy, independent LBS that isn't showing any interest in her anymore, and that makes her wonder, makes her want to find out more.
I confirm today that W is depressed with herself and sich, and is looking on working on that with IC to find activities and purpose while single mom, seperated, and work on self esteem, and is conflicted with herself about the whole thing, according to a IC document I saw left out on table. She doesn't know if I broke her or she doesn't know she's broken, or what could be a combination of both? PTSD, EMOTIONAL ABUSE, BLAME AND GUILT SHIFTING. While it may have some validity, I didn't break her, and its not my job to fix her or her perceptions. But empathize with it. But it is my job to either change my behaviors or not demonstrate the bad ones at all.
I'm trying to say here she's probably second-guessing herself on whether it's her, or whether it's you? They will most likely say that they are only reacting to you which is partly true. You could even say the same thing that you are only reacting to her and the situation. So what do you do? Remove all reactivity and situations that may prompt such for now.
Like LH19 said. She thinks you are fragile, unreliable, independable, and emotionally insecure. PROVE HER WRONG! Like Nails also said. Make a decision to stay in the house.Communicate it calmly and even temoered, and let her figure out the rest for herself. Like AS also said. She knows that if she moves out it's going to put her in a difficult decision in court, as well as her own well being financially. She knows she needs time to stage all of this which is the whole purpose of the 6-month trial separation. She is staging to buy herself more time to get away from you. you are not stopping her and you are not controlling her and you are not manipulating her. She's free to do as she pleases but you are sticking to your guns and staying in the house and the MBR. You are protecting yourself your home your castle and your kids.
You have to get used to not engaging in any dramatic behavior. You have to get used to being comfortable with the silence between you and her. You have to get comfortable with any move she makes on incremental basis away from you and the marriage.
When you stand your ground on these things she's going to try to Gaslight you, make you feel guilty, and manipulate you into giving in to achieve her end goal. They won't realize that that they are doing this, and are being manipulative what they are. They feel like they are owed some kind of suffrage for putting up with you. What they want is to not only get away from you but either keep the house and the children, or push you out if it, or even like in my case, sell it to not only get away from you, but make a gain from it to start a new life. and they try to get you to agree to it on their terms. By all means pay for your kids and take care of them. Ill input more later W just pulled up in driveway.
IHCLACS - This really resonated for me. To be completely honest, sometimes I find your posts to be very edgy and sometimes you sound angry at women in general and it makes me uncomfortable. I'm sorry but at this fragile state I prefer blunt honesty. And please continue to deliver it back to me as well.
But this post resonated so much with my own situation. And like you I empathize with my W even if I don't agree.
My home and castle will need to be sold, unless we R. It is a fact. It is a physical structure. What I care about is that it is my kids' home. Other than that it is largely symbolic.
Ignore the home issue for a second, My W wants time and space. She wants to get back to work. She is a wreck. She admitted some weeks she drank a bottle of wine every night, others she was stress-eating. I noticed ALL of this. She is a mess, and if she says it's the stress of being around me, by all means, I will separate. Living together is not healthy right now. I'm not even saying I think we can ever reconcile. I think the combo as you said of PTSD, EMOTIONAL ABUSE, BLAME and GUILT SHIFTING -- that is a HUGE mountain to climb. I have no control over whether she can get over it. It seems impossible when I look at it. And then she talks about the past and how she wants to get back to that place. How D is the last thing she wants, but she just can't keep living like this. I can only be reliable, dependable, and emotionally stable. Which is good for me anyways.
Standing my ground on the house? It is summer time. My kids are out of school. I work FT. My W moves, I don't see how the kids stay at the house. They need their mom. As awful as this situation is, they need her as primary caretaker. So then they need to move also. They need me too. It's a mess.
Yes I feel manipulated, guilted, etc. I also feel like I can stand my ground in other ways. Come over for dinner with the kids at the house? That's playing family, probably not a good idea. Get a 1BR place and have the kids sleep over periodically? Actually I think creating a 2nd home with rooms for the kids is a better idea, Dad's house, with a set custody-style schedule that we agree upon. I mean, this would basically be the same as a D situation, except my W stays in the house instead of selling and moving somewhere else.
Anyways... I get it. I'm too nice, easy-going, amicable. I still want things to "work out" whether we D, S, or R. I don't care so much about the outcome anymore, but I am still liable to cave to demands.
Yeah I know its a mess Uni. Not knowing where you are going to live. Where you are going to put your stuff. Watching your children's home, your children's yard, you're children's care, and your dreams and lives for your children get shifted around aimlessly with not much of a plan. At least not a united one.Then deciding whether you are primary or secondary depending on your work needs to provide.
Of course she is a mess. Of course she is a mess, she is most likely depressed, and going through a major life transition with conflicted FEELINGS. And according to her perception... ITS ALL YOUR FAULT!!! Just like when she gave birth to your children. (Hypothetically) "You did this to me, its all your fault!" I've been noticing the same behaviors with my W as well. She hasn't been polishing off a whole bottle of wine a night, but about one a week. More beer and and girly drinks in the house lately (Not mine) Her dishes in the sink for 3 days. (Despite holding my @ss to the flame over a few things left in the sink by me last week when she cooked.) Very rarely now, sometimes I'll do the dishes for her and she won't even acknowledge it. Otherwise I'll let her be responsible for her own messes and I won't touch them. complete breakdown of perception and communication on moving forward with things. That's why I just stopped talking to her all together and told her to communicate everything through email.) She has been stress eating, eating junk, hot dogs, chicken fingers, cinnamon buns, takeout, etc. Despite trying to lose weight and boost her self esteem with outside things like nails, inexpensive jewelry, knick knacks, clothes, old and new perfumes, self help books, etc. "Poor me, my life [censored], FB posts." I've even observed that her voice has changed lately. She is having frequent headaches.You know when you listen to somebody's voice, and they try to sound upbeat, but you know they're faking it? And they revert to a tonality that you can tell that they're depressed? Its a depression Uni. Some secretly and quietly hide it very well for years, depending on how open or guarded are with their feelings.
I'm not saying that what I have done is what you should do. But I've removed all emotional interactions with her, again to give her space, and give myself emotional stabilityity. I could ramp it up and just be positive around her all the time, even for my own sake, but still wouldn't matter because they are depressed. We are the closest scape goats for it. Again they do have some validity to some of our toxic behaviors. They are scared of us and they don't trust us. So we need to 180 on those things, and leave them to themselves so they can figure out whether it's them or whether it's us... you stop feeding their monster, you take away what you were contributing to their justifications for leaving. You stop giving them ammo to work with.
Once both of our homes are sold and we are both physically separated and settled into our own lives, I think one or two things are going to happen. They are initially either going to be happier and more relieved temporarily, and realize that since they are now independent of us and are happier for it then we were the cause after all. But... because happiness is a state and it's not constant, eventually somewhere they're going to be unhappy again, and then maybe they will be happy again depending on what they achieve with their new independent lives? Happiness is like money. Its designed to come and go. That's what it's meant to do. Realizing this about life is essential. Or another thing can happen? They will realize that we weren't the root cause of their unhappiness and start to question their own perceptions and beliefs. That isn't going to necessarily make them crawl back to us because of their conflicting feelings. But it may just make them question their own perceptions.
I have seen so many men on here say the same things when it comes to their WAW. Emotional abuse, emotional neglect, etc... Si13, Wolfman, and a few others have all said this. It is their feelings and their perceptions and we can't even argue with it. Some of us has guys have a tendency to get a little over reactive and raise our voices when we are dealing with bull$hit, or, we become emotionally unavailable and walk away, step out of the house go for a car ride excetera. It helps us but it doesn't help them. We have to be the rock for ourselves and for them and for our children. It's hard to accept but you practically cannot have any vulnerability to a woman because she will exploit it and disrespect you for it. Especially during these circumstances. When we become emotionally stronger than them that's when you know you are becoming alpha and detached. Again I don't know everyone's personal circumstances intimately. I'm sure I may have been verbally abrasive at times, but who hasn't? Like Si13 I want to work on this. I have to recognize that when dealing with woman, I have to be more emotionally considerate, and process my responses through a filter, rather than just speaking to them the way I speak to everyone just by the way I was conditioned growing up.
I'm going to go one even better as far as attraction. I realize how much I was working on myself when I was single before I met my wife. And also how I also had a little bit of depression because I was single and didn't have a woman in my life. I stopped working on myself mentality and emotionally, once I got into the relationship, and even more so once I got married, continue to progress in other areas but also get frustrated as well. I myself out. With major bouts of depression through my life due to job loss and other circumstances, but always eventually pick myself up out of it. My wife has struggled with her weight and her self-esteem since she was a little girl. She was doing good on herself improvements while she was single for two or three years before meeting me. Then slowly and we got the house and got settled in over the last seven years and try to have children the depressions consumes her and I never even noticed it because it was so subtle and she was so private about it. Well? Maybe not that private?... I was too busy dealing with my own problems.
The reason why I'm telling this huge story, because when they meet us we are exciting and new to them and they are attracted to us because of our power and our independence. Slowly over time people become more and more codependent upon one another, compromise, and lose their identities for themselves. Co dependants attract co dependants. Feelings change, we out grow people, etc.... Feelings and intuition are supposed to guide you through life, but you can't always trust them. Ask any criminal, drug addict, or cheater where they're feelings got them in life? Feelings and emotions have to be reasonably balanced with logic and reason. The reason why everyone here says it's a marathon not a Sprint and these things may or may not resolve themselves over the course of two to five years is exactly because of feelings. A woman's feelings can easily be manipulated and most Alpha men know this and use it to their advantage. We could check off all of their boxes on a date, but if they're not feeling it then they're not feeling it. They will most likely blame it on chemistry which is partly true. What I'm trying to say is the overall bigger picture is you are dealing with an emotional creature that is subject to change their feelings at any time for any given reason whether it makes sense or not. Whether it's right for them right for you or right for everybody, it's your responsibility to assess things accurately and clearly for the bigger picture. Healthy emotions are supposed to serve us and we are supposed to build connections and benefit from it in happy relationships. But when we are not happy with ourselves our relationships suffer because we are suffering as individuals. But happiness or unhappiness again is a state and it's not the is all end all, it's just for the moment or just for a period of time, or just for a couple of years. We have to be happy to move forward with our lives. Or do we? Ever notice you hate forcing yourself to do something when you're depressed but then once you do it you feel better? we have to recognize Womanhood and their emotions and feelings for what they are. Just a current state that is always subject to change. We also have to recognize that as men, due to our nature and emotional volatility at times, that is good to feel emotions, but we have to have to balance them with logic, andt not get sucked into the emotions and drama of a SO. We need to be the decisive ones. We need to have that healthy balance, and recognize the bigger picture of dynamics between men and women for what they are, and how we can become more emotionally intelligent as a result oh how we show up in the world.
My W is a SAHM, I'd feel horrible to do anything that feels like kicking her out financially BUT this is the family agreement we talked about before we even had kids. I'm not going to feel guilty about me bringing home all the money and her not having the opportunity to because we agreed she'd raise the kids at home.
But things are different now. She's declaring independence. But that doesn't mean you have to be a doormat. You can support your family. But you can set your boundaries. Don't finance her fun. Heck they are your boundaries, if she's not going to move toward you with her choices....honestly, what do you have to lose?
Along with AS, I wanted to address this. I agree with everything that AS said. And want to add this perspective: You didn't ask for this. She did. You aren't "kicking her out financially", she FIRED you financially. This is on her. This is why I am a staunch adversary to "voluntary support". No, she asked for this. Now the D court may great her alimony based on her being a SAHM and out of the job force, but you let the court order it before paying it. (Note it is usually temporary unless the LBH is very well off.)
So this isn't the LBH kicking her out financially, this is the WAW firing her LBH financially. And that decision has consequences.
M(53), W(54),D(19) M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017 Ring and Piecing since March 2018
