Anxious, Emotional Neglect, and LRT

[sandi2]

Hi Josh, I've been away a few days, so just trying to catch up on your thread. Your sitch is very familiar to me, so I am going to talk extremely straight with you. You've recently had a breakthrough in therapy. I think that's terrific, and I can understand how you would be eager to approach your MR with a better sense of the man you should have been all along. Sadly, your W feels the results of your nice guy syndrome. After ten years, she has a lot of anger. I'm not sure if you really understand what it does to a woman who does not have her emotional needs met by her H, but it usually turns her into an unattractive person........unless she happens to be exceptional. Even if there are no personality disorder or some other mental issue, just being a W with a somewhat strong personality can cause a bad dynamic when she has a H with NGS.

She has a lot of anger b/c she feels you neglected her emotional intimacy needs. Now, maybe some guys automatically assume when the word "intimate" is used it means "sexually", but that's not always the case. Being the complex creature that she is, it has more to do with how you make love to her by communicating how she is valued, special, feminine, sexy, smart, beautiful, loved, etc. It is, also, you communicating how she makes you feel like a confident man, fulfills you sexually, inspires you, etc. These are expressions that make women feel great, and I would think it makes the man feel pretty good, as well. This is another way of making love, and I think every spouse has certain emotional needs they want their mate to fill. A lot of men simply don't know how to express these things, or don't understand how important it is to a woman for her H to communicate these messages in a loving, intimate manner. Maybe she never told you what she needed. Whatever her emotional needs were, she felt they were neglected for a long time, so now........she's fed up and feels done. Let me add something else. It's natural for a wife to look to her H to fill these needs, just as it is for him to want her to fill his EN. The trick is to learn what she needs. If she won't tell you, then you have to try different things, and watch her response.

It's unfortunate that the two of you are currently in different emotional time zones. Just as you feel "reborn", she feels like she's dead. You want to show her affection, but she is not in the same time zone. The harder you try to show her how much you love her and want to make up for lost time.......the more you'll push her away. So, you will have to deal with things in different approach than you might have originally thought.

Living under the same roof in an "in-house separation" is extremely challenging. IMHO, the spouses don't have clear house rules and don't understand their roles in this arrangement. The spouse who wanted the separation wants to play family when it's convenient or when it means going on vacation, sharing holidays or other special events. However, that spouse wants certain freedom, and if their mate gets too close then they scream foul. Did you & your W discuss any time limit for this separation? Will the two of you be seeking any type of guidance or assistance to help reconcile the MR? Were there any ground rules discussed? I gather that not much has been determined, since there was a family vacation, and you aren't sure where you'll be sleeping. Here's the problem. You are really separated, so you don't know what to do from day to day activities. She's basically not sleeping with you, while still benefiting from being M to you, right?

I'm still not at the point where I can confidentially bust up my family by walking away (She already tried to manipulate me to do that, and I stood my ground). She has so many other great attributes like bringing joy to life in a way I can't. I could almost accept her silly tricks if I knew she was putting in an effort to change. I know can't make her change, but she has noticed my transformation. I can see she backs off on some of her toxic behaviour even though she won't admit it.

By "silly tricks" are you saying she is very manipulative? If that's true, then it will require a lot of toughness from you, if you intend to stay in a MR with her. Standing up to her, instead of cowing down and submitting to a bullying W, will likely earn her respect. Calling her out of her b.s., sh't behavior, trying to treat you like cr@p........is a must, if you want to see change in her. I don't know her, or the personal issues she may have, but I think a lot of unattractive behavior comes when the W feels the H is not being the man (leader, protector, provider, parent, etc.) he needs to be and she has to step up to get the "job" done. This causes huge resentment and disrespect in her. Once her disrespect for you as a man is gone, then she doesn't feel the loving emotions for you. Getting the respect back, is your starting point. Being consistent is key.

Deep down I know an anxious person is not for me and ultimately if she doesn't change I must leave.

Why wouldn't she feel anxious, if you always avoided things? If you would not confront certain matters, or didn't discuss relationship issues, or concerns she might have had........then why wouldn't she feel uncertain, worried, and anxious?

For sure my reactions only expounded her anxiety but I wouldn't say I created it. She has a few times admitted she is an anxious person.

Yes, she has been planning her exit. She told me as such. And about 4 years ago she started to say she will after any argument. A warning sign in hindsight but she always talks in extremes so I just ignored.

Yes, I've read about validation, and this is something I started doing about 8 months ago as part of my transformation. Not something I've done before since, well, I felt scared to speak up.

Yes, she picks fights, but less so since separation. But when she does pick a fight I spend a LOT of enegry to not be dragged down, to stay distant, and to stick to the situation. She loses steam and then typically ends the flight with "I just can't live with you".

Has it ever occurred to you that she might be doing this to see if you would speak up (stand up) to her? When a H acts like nothing the W says to him can prompt any action, she will speak in extremes and threaten.......just to see if it will pull him out of that distant, weak, closed lip, subdued behavior. Do you understand how unattractive that type of behavior in a male is to a woman? Women want their H's to be stronger than they are! Therefore, she's going to test you to see if you really are stronger than she. And, stonewalling her is not the type of reaction (or lack there of) she wanted to see in the man who was suppose to be in charge of her family. If she bullies you, it is b/c you allowed it. That's true anywhere you go. The schoolyard, the workplace, within families, or intimate relationships.

One a week ago was where my daughter came to me upset that wife wouldn't stop pushing her on a swing even when my daughter said stop. I just causually told my wife that the daughter was upset that you didn't stop when she said stop. Oh boy. A 30 minute tirade of excuses, complaints about the daughter, sarcasm, and blaming my daughter for "playing me".

Then I would suspect there was much more at a deeper level than just the fact your daughter reported her mother to you. Maybe she's right. Mothers can usually see when their little girls "play" their father, even though the father can't. I've seen it happen many times, just like sons can play their moms. But aside from that, I'd guess your W didn't feel supported, and not just this time but in general. That's another one of those EN.

I will continue in next post.

[IHCLACS]

Sandy can you kindly explain what goes through a woman's mind when they want to play family with their H in Social Circles with all of their friends. And family with H? The only thing I see about it being that friend zone is they only do it for the sake of co-parenting. I really don't see any respect their for the H. Like he's good enough to take out on social occasions, just not all of them, because the WAW/WW wants their freedom and Independence to do their own thing in life without any control or oversight, which may include sleeping with other men and looking for love in all the wrong places. I just still don't get it? If they are totally done why are they keeping the H around as a friend other than for the sake of the kids and being plan b if their break for freedom fails? I just don't get it? My WAW does this a lot. It doesn't matter now we've decided on divorce in my sich but? Other than child-related co-parenting family occasions. I just don't get it I can't wrap my head around it. What is the benefit to them? It's like we're good enough to go out to social occasions together, go out for ice cream and go see family members which I put a stop to a while back, but I am going to partake in my son's 2nd birthday, and not do anything separate. I can't understand is that they call us scary and controlling and manipulative and they hate us and don't want to be around us and they want their space from us, they undermine our parenting abilities, constant disrespect, and on the other same hand within the same moment they say we are awesome parents. They don't want to spend any time with us they constantly ignore us and they use us just for the logistics. but then they want to keep us around for social occasions. No self-respecting man should even entertain this BS. On the other hand what if it is some form of connection or a social demonstration for a 180? Why do they want us there?

[Josh71]

Sandi,

All you say is true. It's hard to know if her anxiety was always there, I created it, or, as I suspect, I brought out what was already there. Indeed, I vividly recall the moment 10 years ago when I avoided the first big issue of her boundary violation. I never stood up, and the issues started then. Because of NCS, I resented her even though I didn't know it. And I just went on passively through life, avoiding sex, doing what she said, and building the foundation for resentment that she has now. I'm very aware of how I did this and how my emotional neglect messed up every prior relationship in pretty much the same way.

I also know what kind of woman I seem to attract and, unfortunately, I doubt the changes I need from W would be accepted for a new MR. I'm not being negative, for sure if there was reconciliation a positive feedback loop could occur. She could change enough when accepting my changes as she has grudgingly admitted three months ago I've changed and am the H she wants. But right now I could go either way and I'm fine with that.

My POV on separation is that she initiated it, she needs to define what the boundaries are. Six months in separation we almost reconnected. She admitted it didn't feel like a separation. It got to the point where I was mentioning sex a lot and wanted to initiate. She was warming up (In hindsight I pursued too much I have to say). Eventually we tried. And she stopped midway to say she couldn't do it. She apologised, dressed up, and that was the start of a colder W leading to where I am now.

I'm DBing since then. All pursuit has ceased. And yeah, shes uncomfortable because she hasn't fully articulated her separation boundaries. But at the same time, she complains about how aweful living with me is and blows up. But t hasn't actually moved out. So when she's calm, it's like 80% of how when we were married. In other words, she has bren all talk so far. I believe she is capable of moving out. Maybe she's waiting on property settlement to secure her future. Which I'm stalling on. I don't know. Her separation, her move.

Right now I'm DBing and its effing hard. It feels aweful to know I'm creating short term negativity by delaying sms responses, or disappearing after dinner without chatting. It's so 180 from who I was. And I admit the space I love. I remind myself if it doesn't work to try something different. But you know what? Before BD she would sometimes do the same. Isolate herself. In any event I'm at peace in a way like never before and she is depressed and upset like never before. And that's OK for now.

I've been waiting for your valuable insights Sandi, thank you.

[Josh71]

IHCLACS,

Yup same sitch as me. I think Sandi discussed this on a post way back. WAW is selfish. So she eats her cake. My W cares about what people think (myself included, she worries I'll hate her post D). She wants both freedom and comfort from H. Best of both worlds.

In my case she needs me to co-parent. She wears wedding ring at work, worried what they might think. She needs someone to vent to when her gay friend isn't available. I'm her comfort blanket when needed because Mr. Nice guy is always there. The great thing about being in the friend zone I guess. Not any more actually, poor W, I can imagine the pain and anger she feels.

Today I hope my W realised there will be messed up times with theckids and I'm not available. That I'm not there to share a laugh or to hear her complaints. And I know she can't stand not knowing where I go. I worry I only feed her anxiety further. But I'm no longer her H, not my role any more.

[sandi2]

It feels like we are married sans anything physical. I'm on a family holiday and we've been sharing a bed. First time in 9 months.

What!? I'm confused. So, the only way you're really separated is sexually?

W has been dropping little barbs like I snore too much, forgot how that ruined my life. My POV is she never set the boundary. No touching in bed, nice chats, all good. Well today at dinner she said she hates it, I have to sleep on the couch, it's been stressing me this trip, thats why im eating lots of chocolate. Oh and we are friends and "I'm single". She's mentioned the friend thing before, but first time she said single. She also reminded me (again) she wants to move out with kids.

And again, she's trying to get you to stand up to her. What did you say? What did you do, beside eat chocolate?

I'm detached outside (but hurting inside).

But isn't that the picture you've always given? You are hurt inside, but God forbid you say or do anything that might go against something she says. You just do whatever she dictates. Hasn't your pattern been to crawl in your shell and say nothing back? I think she's seen you emotionally detached for most of your M, and that's one of the problems. She has felt your detachment for ten years.

I'm really going up and down in emotions because I don't think I've fully detached. I feel removing my wedding ring (she did so months ago) might be a symbolic effort to show detachment.

What is your goal.......to save the M or show her how detached you are? I don't think you should make some symbolic show of detachment.

Josh, don't confuse detachment to mean you act cold or angry.

I'm not sure if W is really suitable for who I now am becoming. IC warned me of this. I really feel now that unless she can make enough changes (so far minimal) my needs need to be filled elsewhere. In otherwords she can't satisfy what I now need in a relationship. And I see her thinking about my boundaries too.

So, do you want to be married to her, or married to a better version of her? The two of you may not be suitable for each other, after ten years of an unhappy MR. I'm still reading through your thread, and maybe I'll find something that changes my opinion, but right now I think your new found self could be overshadowed by something a little less admirable if you aren't careful and stay self aware. She may be Jezebel incarnated for all I know, but I don't think you can leave this MR pointing all fingers at her for its demise. You can call her anxious or whatever, but until I read more, she sounds like a woman who did not get the emotional support she needed.

It's hard to know if her anxiety was always there, I created it, or, as I suspect, I brought out what was already there.

Conditions can develop in relationships. Couples usually feed off each other. If one is negative, has had emotional difficulties or needs certain emotional support from the other spouse......it can go south in a MR if the other spouse doesn't know exactly what to do (and that's not counting big problems that crop up). Obviously, all of us here experienced a MR that was lacking some tools needed. Some were able to find out what to do in time to save the M, and some didn't. And, it's not that DB didn't work, but that it was too late by the time the newcomer arrived to get the information.

Indeed, I vividly recall the moment 10 years ago when I avoided the first big issue of her boundary violation.

Can you explain?

I'm very aware of how I did this and how my emotional neglect messed up every prior relationship in pretty much the same way.

Although it's sad, be glad that you can see and are on track to change the future.

I doubt the changes I need from W would be accepted for a new MR.

What do you mean?

I'm not being negative, for sure if there was reconciliation a positive feedback loop could occur. She could change enough when accepting my changes as she has grudgingly admitted three months ago I've changed and am the H she wants. But right now I could go either way and I'm fine with that.

When someone goes through a major transformation, they see they can no longer settle for what they took in the past. In other words, if you know you can no longer live with the woman your W has become, then you need to know within yourself what you want in a relationship/wife. Perhaps one day this subject can be discussed between you & W. Right now, neither of you seem too sure of wanting one another. I agree that both of you need to change. It's hard and takes a lot of work......and a lot of "want to".

People change in a MR. Sometimes it's for the better and sometimes it's not. ((hugs))

[sandi2]

Sandy can you kindly explain what goes through a woman's mind when they want to play family with their H in Social Circles with all of their friends. And family with H? The only thing I see about it being that friend zone is they only do it for the sake of co-parenting. I really don't see any respect their for the H.

No, it isn't out of any respect she feels for the H. IMHO, she wants to play family in social circles kind of like saving face, but not exactly. She uses the H more as an escort than anything else. She doesn't want to show up to public events alone, or have people asking uncomfortable questions. As for playing family with H, I think it comes under the heading of cake eating. She benefits from both worlds, so to speak. I never desired to play house with my H, but endured it when around other people, b/c I knew they expected to see us together at certain events.

Like he's good enough to take out on social occasions, just not all of them, because the WAW/WW wants their freedom and Independence to do their own thing in life without any control or oversight, which may include sleeping with other men and looking for love in all the wrong places. I just still don't get it? If they are totally done why are they keeping the H around as a friend other than for the sake of the kids and being plan b if their break for freedom fails? I just don't get it?

You don't get it b/c you are trying to apply logic to that which is illogical. ((hugs)) It has nothing to do with the H being good enough to take some places and not all of them. It's all about her and what she wants/feels at any given moment. If she has a better offer, she'll turn H down and go with the other offer. It's her selfishness and arrogance. Yes, she wants to play family when it suits her and is convenient for her, and only then. Her freedom is priority in most cases. I don't even think she is looking for love in all the wrong places, to be quite honest. For some who have gone wild, it's just about spreading their wings and sowing their wild oats (even if they are somewhat late in the game). They are like rebellious teenagers who are determined to do everything they've been told is inappropriate, bad or wrong.

Why are they keeping H around as a friend? That's a good question and I wish I had a good answer. I think she wants to play friends in order to use him. She'll take advantage and use him for whatever she may need at the time. Bottom line is her ego, and I think she wants to believe the H can't love anyone the way he loves her. She wants to believe he is sitting home alone, pining away for her. I don't believe it is for the sake of the kids, whatsoever. She isn't going to do what's best for the kids! Don't forget, it's all about her and how she benefits emotionally, financially, or physically. That's not to say she is smart about it, but that's how she views everything. For example, her H may be able to give her more financially, but he doesn't give her what she desires emotionally, so she goes with the dud (OM) who feeds her ego. Even if she likes to sleep with Joe Blow, she will try to keep her H as her backup plan.....until she knows for certain Joe Blow will follow through. By that, I mean if everything falls through and nothing works out like she thought, then she'll always have ole hubby who will take care of her. In her head, she thinks he would be grateful to get her back! That's why I feel that dropping the rope and moving forward is the right way for the H to go. It has a shock value to it when she sees that he isn't going to stop living just b/c she wants a D. However, I think he really has to stop the friends act, and after the D he can be friend-ly in his interactions, but not real friends. Know what I mean? Why would you want to be friends with someone who divorced you? I could find better people to have for a BFF!

I just don't get it I can't wrap my head around it. What is the benefit to them? It's like we're good enough to go out to social occasions together, go out for ice cream and go see family members which I put a stop to a while back, but I am going to partake in my son's 2nd birthday, and not do anything separate.

She wants to keep attending the family events, holiday activities, traditional festivities, etc. See, reality has not dawned on her yet. She wants to keep one foot in and one foot out. Some women may miss parts of the family stuff, like going for ice cream or celebrating son's birthday.........and I've read where some WW even want to continue physical affection, but they want to go through with the S/D. You can figure out crazy! I go back to the selfishness and the fantasy. It shows how far removed from reality she is.

I can't understand is that they call us scary and controlling and manipulative and they hate us and don't want to be around us and they want their space from us, they undermine our parenting abilities, constant disrespect, and on the other same hand within the same moment they say we are awesome parents. They don't want to spend any time with us they constantly ignore us and they use us just for the logistics. but then they want to keep us around for social occasions. No self-respecting man should even entertain this BS. On the other hand what if it is some form of connection or a social demonstration for a 180? Why do they want us there?

It depends on what you mean by making a connection. She wants to make a connection when she sleeps with another guy, too. She could show up on your doorstep late some night, crying and wanting you to take her back. By morning, she's ready to split again. I want you to listen very carefully to me, b/c I have read your question from a lot of other LBH's........"What if she is trying to make a connection?" It does not matter if she wants some type of connection, b/c that is the theme of this entire post from you. Don't you see it? She doesn't want to give up her position and/or connection she has with you, the family, relatives, etc........but she wants it on her terms. Now, when she stops trying to manipulate, lie & deceive, act like GGW, and all the other disrespectful behaviors, and she genuinely shows that she wants to do whatever is necessary to make her M work.......THEN you can think about the possibility of her being serious. But there are ways she needs to show she means it, and one way is by demonstrating respect for her H and being willing to do what he says he needs to heal & reconcile. Do you know how many H's have taken back their WW too quickly and too easily, only to experience the same ordeal over again? In fact, I think it was my second thread on my WW series I wrote on this very subject....in case you want to check it out. If you trust anything I say, I hope you take this to heart. Reconciliation with a WW, should cover a considerable amount of time and a ton of work. She should be required to meet several realistic qualifications set by the H. If he takes her back on face value, then he's probably in for more pain.

There have some WW's who really changed from the heart outward in a positive and loving way. It's hard, I'm not going to lie. She has to undergo an emotional heart operation, if she really does it right.

The WW that does not learn life lessons from her experience, and is not willing to find the information & guidance they need to change and to save their M, is not a W you need to consider taking back.

((hugs))

[Josh71]

Hi Sandi,

Let me clarify: We've been in separate beds for 9 months. On a pre-planned vacation we were in the same bed for 2 nights. She was uncomfortable and said it felt like backwards steps. I was going out for the evening and agreed on the couch for that night. The next night I stayed in the bed. She asked if I was going to the couch. I said no, I'm staying in bed because you are the one who has the problem of being in the same bed. She said when are you going to tell me this. I said right now. Ten minutes later, I presume because she was rattled, she came back and asked about dividing up property. I said it really isn't the right time. She was upset about a previous conversation where I asked her how will she afford to be in an apartment without a job? Well I said I asked her that because I'm not supporting her. She was in a panic. "Are you going to support me? Should I be nervous about anything?". I just said no, but all options are on the table.

So to summarise, when she announced that "she is single", I didn't say anything other then "OK, I can understand that is how you feel". Just validation.

But now I'm really confused about DB. So yeah, I've been detached for a long period of time in the marriage. Not standing up, keeping conflict away. But that is not what I'm doing now. I'm still emotionally detached, but now I'm validating and setting boundaries when they are crossed. So the difference is there is validation now and boundary setting. I'm not angry and never escalated any argument. She is the one angry ATM. I just validate and avoid R talk. Cold? We laugh at times, we have good convos between her angry outbursts. It genuinely feels at times like we are married. I don't talk about deep things, but then I never did. I don't reach out for emotional support. When she does I just validate. Given that I've been emotionally blunted is that the appropriate response now? Maybe I need to be more emotionally involved? Be more vulnerable?

In terms of what I want: Originally to keep the M. But the more I go down this DB hole the more I'm not so sure. I would like to still keep the M, but with strings attached (e.g. we go to counselling, I agree to be more emotionally connected, she agrees to work on less emotional abusive behaviour). I believe this is achievable as I've seen the positive feedback loop. She already has dialed down the abusive behaviour and even once apologised, something I've never seen in 10 years. But then if she won't change I'm not sure if that would be enough for me. Confused? Yeah for sure! I'm aware I played a BIG part in the demise of M. And for all purposes her behaviour is a direct reflection of that and not her true self. But since it started so early, I'm not so sure.

So consider my answer on the fence, I'm more comfortable for it to go either way. I kept my wedding ring on for so long as I felt hope. I just removed it last week after she was very clear that "I'm single". I felt, OK. That's clear. I'm really fired as H. Why keep the ring?

To clarify, the defining moment of going downhill was when we first moved in. She wanted something in a particular closet. I disagreed. She went off. I tried to explain but all I got was justification on why she was right. This pattern continued on until I felt I didn't want to argue. Happened so much with the birth of our first baby. If I didn't heat the bottle exactly right I got criticised. I just fell back into my CEN behaviour which is to say nothing, avoid conflict, build resentment. And the sex started to fall away, further generating complaints. As a Mr. Nice Guy I felt it extremely difficult to initiate sex in this situation. And she mostly didn't either as she considered it begging). But she was happy to complain that it wasn't her job to initiate.

In any event, I accept that I might be way to late to the DB party. And I accept there might be nothing I can do to save M. GAL has really made a difference to boost my mood.

[sandi2]

She asked if I was going to the couch. I said no, I'm staying in bed because you are the one who has the problem of being in the same bed. She said when are you going to tell me this. I said right now. Ten minutes later, I presume because she was rattled, she came back and asked about dividing up property. I said it really isn't the right time.

You handled that situation correctly. Whenever you say these type things to her, say it in a way she knows you mean it, and don't be snide about it. She has threatened and bluffed about leaving for so long, now you are forcing her to show

She was upset about a previous conversation where I asked her how will she afford to be in an apartment without a job? Well I said I asked her that because I'm not supporting her. She was in a panic. "Are you going to support me? Should I be nervous about anything?". I just said no, but all options are on the table.
her cards and it rattles her.

The more reality that is thrown at her, the better. She fantasizes about living in a nice apartment with all her new freedom, and you picking up the tab. And she doesn't even work? Yeah, she needs to know you will not be supporting her. Before you say too much, check it out with a lawyer to see where you stand and what you would have to do financially should she D you.

But now I'm really confused about DB. So yeah, I've been detached for a long period of time in the marriage. Not standing up, keeping conflict away. But that is not what I'm doing now. I'm still emotionally detached, but now I'm validating and setting boundaries when they are crossed. So the difference is there is validation now and boundary setting. I'm not angry and never escalated any argument. She is the one angry ATM. I just validate and avoid R talk. Cold? We laugh at times, we have good convos between her angry outbursts. It genuinely feels at times like we are married. I don't talk about deep things, but then I never did. I don't reach out for emotional support. When she does I just validate. Given that I've been emotionally blunted is that the appropriate response now? Maybe I need to be more emotionally involved? Be more vulnerable?

I think detaching is the most misunderstood part in DBing. It is talked much more on the board than in the book. DBing detachment doesn't mean you don't stand up for yourself. It does not mean you necessarily avoid conflict, b/c you don't shy away it. But if she's just a drama queen, then you don't get emotionally involved in all of that stuff. But if she comes at you angrily, then you stand your ground and deal with the issue like a strong, confident man who is not afraid to stand up to her nose to nose. Don't argue, just state whatever you need to say and be done with it if she won't shut up. But don't crawl in a shell and roll up in a ball. She needs to see a man who has found his b@lls, and is not afraid to put her in her place. Sometimes, that's what you have to do in order for her to shut up and listen. I'm not advocating anything physical. I think a man can say things in an authoritative voice, and most women will calm down. Sometimes he can speak in a soft voice, but look straight into her eyes, and she knows he means business. You are the man of the house, so put your rightful pants on.

Now, if she is off her rocker, then nothing is going to work, except treatment. However, if you have seen her respond positively to some things already, then I think she wants to see masculine leadership, strength, confidence, etc. in you. I think she threatens about leaving, b/c it's all she has to hold over your head. She has not job, so she is totally dependent on you for her welfare. I don't know how you manage the finances, or if there has been any problems, but that can cause a lot of anxiousness for the one dependent on you. The most important thing to remember (if she truly is a bully) is show no fear. If she wants to leave, then fine, but she doesn't get to get up in your face screaming & threatening.

I think she went for years needing a lot of validation, reassurance, and emotional intimacy. When she didn't get it, she turned on you in an aggressive manner, and you retreated. She lost respect for you, and that kills her attraction and feeling in love. So, as I said previously, you have to get her respect for you, first. You do that by being the man in the home, in the relationship, dealing with the kids, business, whatever area of life.

I did not mean to confuse you when I asked you if you were showing the same picture she had seen in you the past ten years. If you tend to get caught up in her drama, then of course you need to detach from it. However, it doesn't mean to craw up in a shell, either. It doesn't mean you snub her, treat her badly, cold, or act as if you are mad all the time. I'm going to copy & paste a short version of DBing Detaching.

I'm not sure how she treats you. You've said she was anxious, and I think you said she emotionally bullied you or were manipulative. Can you tell me more about this?

If she is an emotional abuser and you don't want to deal with it anymore, then pull all the way back and have nothing to do with her. I don't think it will resolve the MR, nor do I think she'll change, without her getting professional therapy. I am not sure where you stand with the M, if you want in or out. If you want in.....based on her changing, then I think how you approach her needs to be in such a way that it sends that message to her......that you are not going to tolerate bad behavior anymore.

Another key is to show consistency. In other words, know within yourself where you stand, and reflect that message to her through the methods you use in approach and response.

You mentioned she had an EA at one time. Did you learn much about this EA, and did you confront her about it? How did it end?

[sandi2]

Definition of Healthy Detachment...(Posted by DBer Peanut originally)

I. Detachment

Detachment is critical to the process of altering and repairing a relationship.

Attached, we take personally ALL that is said, not said, done and not done.

When our ego gets wounded, we are more inclined to do/say things that undermine our goals.

When we are Detached from the actions of another, we can meet anger or indifference with love.

Met with love (known as to lovingly detach*), we are in a position to diffuse the situation, and transform it in a way that will be in alignment with our goals.

On the flip-side, detachment allows us to play it cool when we do get a positive reaction from our spouse. It is a way to break the distance/pursuer cycle.

Detachment is not withdrawal. It is not indifference. It is not the mind saying, I am not getting what I want so I must pull back.

It is the natural acceptance that we alone are responsible for how we act. We cannot control another person, but we can control how we respond to them.

We are responsible for our own actions (no one else is).

We are responsible for our own happiness. (No one else is)


PART II Detachment (found around here)

Detachment is the:

* Ability to allow S the freedom to be him/herself.

* Holding back from the need to rescue, save or fix S from being sick, dysfunctional or irrational.

* Giving S "the space" to be him/herself.

* Disengaging from an over-enmeshed or dependent relationship with S.

* Accepting that I cannot change or control S and it was never my duty/job to do so.

* Establishing of emotional boundaries between me and S, so that both of us might be able to develop our own sense of autonomy and independence.

* Process by which I am free to feel my own feelings when I see S falter and fail and not to feel responsible for his/her failure, faltering or learning.

* Ability to maintain an emotional bond of love, concern and caring, without the negative results of rescuing, enabling, fixing, demanding or controlling.

* Placing of all things in life into a healthy, rational perspective. (=Balance is a piece of detachment).

* Ability to exercise emotional self-protection and prevention so as not to hang on beyond a reasonable and rational point.

* Ability to let people I love and care for accept personal responsibility for their own actions and not bail them out when their actions lead to failure or trouble for them.

* Ability to allow S to be who he/she really is rather than who I want him/her to be.

IF & WHEN THESE ^^^ FACTORS ARE ADDRESSED, -

We could have a great friendship, or a great marriage. And those are treasures.

[Josh71]

All, I can't tell you how much your advice means to me. I've learnt as much here on DB and reading Mr. Nice Guy as a year of IC. My IC wraps up (I'm told no longer needed) and this fourm has just been great.

I feel I have taken DB a bit too far and I think Sandi you eluded to that. Today I've opened up a bit more with W. We had a nice evening of fun with kids, TV together, a few good laughs, and chats about all sorts of things other than R.

Man up indeed, and I've seen the small changes in response. Even today asking for my opinion on something as mundane as what take away dinner for a family birthday. The thing is I normally would hold back my opinion and claim whatever, I'm easy. Instead that jerk isn't there and I've been more assertive. I think being too vague about GAL is not good for the anxious. But yeah, smashing post D fantasies and not reacting to emotinal bursts has been good detachment.

Emotional abuse. I don't use the term lightly and I'll provide some examples.

Relationship Scorecard: Always bringing up the past to hurt or to guilt, usually in a barrage of multiple complaints. I end up feeling ashamed (Nice Guy shame), guilty, or profess I'll do better. A no win scenario for me because there is always something that could be brought up. In highly emotive states, especially during her period, my sins have bordered on the ludicrous. Once I was even accused of not laughing. Not sure why I should be laughing during her complaining monologues (Maybe I should). In fact there actually was a hilarious moment in one where I did almost laugh. She complained I was too hairy "down there" which made sex "ALWAYS repulsive" . I validated and then stated it bothered me too so I now I shave. The shock on her face: priceless. Last time this sort of outburst happened I cooly responded but never got angry. Now I didn't know about boundaries then so I didn't assert a consequence.

Inability to handle criticism, even if "trivial". Rections are either reflecting back to me things I do wrong, justification for her actions, or just plain "why are you mean to me?". Usually escalates into other issues if not checked. Can escalate into literal stares of hatred which is truely confronting.

Interfering when not asked and if rebuffed, will respond as if critisized. Example might be cooking (and she is better). If i rebuke her unwanted help it can burst into comments like "I've cooked longer, I'm better than you, ill just do it". Once I asked to just let me fail, but the point was lost on her. Now if it ever happens again, ill validate and just state i need to learn my way.

Relationship Hostage: before BD, arguments can escalate to "i don't feel close you", "I can't be with someone who is mean to me", "I will leave when the kids are older"

Blaming Others for her Emotions: "You make me angry", "You make me eat carbs because I'm stressed". Worst part is that this has been directed to the kids and I never stepped in. To her credit, she caught herself doing this the other day so she's learning. Which I say is because of me since I've directly told her many times that her emotional reactions are her choice only.

Some of these have improved since I've been setting boundaries. The one thing i dont know is if she's aware of her reaction to critism. I'm not willing to test that now and have held back any critism for months in order to ensure no angry reactions or risk any chance of her feeling that nothing changes.

Hope this clarifies what I mean. There is one other thing but I don't think it's toxic and that is she sees the negative side of past events. I see that as just a normal reaction to her current state of mind. I do try to point out the positive when that sort of reflecting comes up ...

I also have to say that dealing with these toxic behaviours would form an R condition if there will ever be any talk of piecing.