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Here's my new thread.

This is my old thread.

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2850613&page=11

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I like that about not picking up other people's problems, I suppose that's what validation is about. It's about accepting and understanding someone else's feelings without getting dragged into the middle of it. That does sound painful seeing flashes of the old him occasionally, because it must get your hopes up a bit maybe?


I think it used to. I don't think he's got a masterplan and is deliberately giving me breadcrumbs or stringing me along - though I've let that happen. I think he's genuinely in a state, would like to repair things and hasn't done the individual work to understand why he does the things he does. Now and again there's a half-apology, or an improvement in the way he communicates with me, or some gesture of practical help (which is actually no more than the father of my children should be offering) but they're not consistent. I think I'm moving - very unevenly and slowly - to accepting that those little flashes and moments of connection or kindness or insight or taking of responsibility that I see in him are nowhere near enough. I want and deserve better than that.

Things continue peacefully today. He was in touch to moan more about his life, and the birthday party. Apparently it was hard work having Youngest at the weekend and he didn't get a moment to himself, and Youngest was difficult over homework. I think in the last six months we've been living apart he's had Youngest at his house about 10-15 times - and sends him back with his dirty laundry. So my heart is not quite aching for him. Today's moan was there's just too much to do and he's so stressed about it al (he's got about three weeks off work, and no household to run). I validated. He was talking about sorting out the garden at my house (little bit of a jungle right now) sending invites, booking bouncy castle, etc. I told him I'd taken care of it all and have made an arrangement with a few friends to come and help me with lawn and hedges next weekend. No need for him to come to the house. He sounded surprised. I don't know what he expects - he was given his chance to collaborate with me peacefully and instead wanted an argument, so I backed away and sorted it out on my own. He wasn't hostile - he just sounded quite lost and sad, and I felt pity for him, but not enough to dive in and sort it out for him or reassure him. I don't have any intention of excluding him from his children's lives, but if he can't BE a husband, he doesn't get a wife. If he can't peacefully co-parent with me, then we can parallel parent and he's free to do whatever he thinks is best regarding birthdays and such in his own time. I think the lack of defensiveness on my part, followed by the quiet taking of action, is putting him into a spin. I need to get on with my summer more than I need to argue or placate him.

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Brilliant. And what a fantastic title! I'm glad that you're doing this, but not out of anger or as a bid to get him back, just recognising he's not capable of stepping up right now. I would actually quite like to punch him for the whingeing about having 3 weeks off and being stressed. If he keeps behaving like a petulant child he might find that's really not attractive at all and you'll not want him back anyway...

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What I wouldn't give for three weeks off work and nothing to do !!!

There was a man who contacted me on OLD. He is 50 and a personal trainer. He was on hols in Spain and was due back soon. We spoke about gyms and living in London. Then it turned sour. He was so full of negativity. I stopped responding after back and forths. That negativity is infectious if you let it be. Validate but don't own it. "Yes, people in London can be abrupt but once they know you can be warm and caring. You just have to take the time".

Of course you should include him in activities with his children. Our ex au pair (one that we liked) is coming to stay with us for two weeks at the end of the month. I did not ask permission to have her stay. We have a spare room, the children and I love her, and it is my house. I plan on having a BBQ for her and some friends but the only day available is a day that he has the children. So I asked if it would be OK to have the children, and then said he was welcome to come too. I also asked his mum. I invited my friends not his (partly because he has told me NOT to contact his friends). I will buy all the food, book the bouncy castle, send out the invites (thank god for WhatsApp) and he can come or not. I will spend the morning preparing the food and tidying the house. He will turn up, run the BBQ and take all the credit. It would have driven me nuts a year ago, having to be the one to do everything, but now, I am OK with it.

You are doing wonderfully Alison. Just be careful that taking back your life is not trodding all over his. Do it for you. Not because you want to get a rise out of him.


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Thanks, Fly. Yes - he's relentlessly negative and when we were living together the way I responded to that (by taking it personally and trying to either fix his issues or convince him to look at them a different way) made both of us miserable. Non defensiveness and validating is really helping me here. I'm not sure it affects him one way or the other, but it certainly allows me to have a conversation with him without feeling like I'm being pulled into a black hole.

I don't want to tread on his life or get a rise out of him. My preference would be that he'd collaborate with me. But if he'd rather use our interactions to criticise me and bring up R stuff in order to blame me for it, I'm going to end those conversations and carry on with my life on my own. I won't exclude him from anything - he'll just be a guest, if he comes, rather than a co-host, because he wasn't offering to help, only to criticise, and I don't participate in that any more.

I don't feel sad today. I regret that he isn't offering what I want, but I feel it is more sane to accept the reality of that and go around it and do what I want, rather than hang about waiting at an empty cupboard, or blame the cupboard and cry about it being empty.

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Journalling.

An interesting update. H came to see me yesterday during the day while the kids were at school. He was very nervy, but spoke very respectfully and decently. I could see he was making an effort. We talked for a while - again, about therapy and also about the mortgage. He's still being quite evasive about what he wants - he doesn't want me to buy him out, but he's not giving me a figure for how much he wants to contribute to the mortgage either. I said he's not having it both ways, it's one or the other and I want to know which this week. He was okay with that.

I said that it didn't feel that we were both in places where we had a willingness to listen to each other without being defensive and be open to making changes in ourselves for the good of the marriage, and if that was true, therapy would feel like a pointless exercise to me. He assured me that he was. I wanted to ask him to give me an example, but I didn't. I said I wanted to listen to him and I wanted to take responsibility, but the way he communicated was really off-putting and I didn't want to hear any more of the angry, belittling remarks, the unconstructive criticism and nitpicking, the sarcasm. That it wasn't constructive to either getting things repaired, or moving things towards a peaceful D. And he accepted that.

He was talking again (this has been a regular refrain) about how things will be in the summer, and I said, 'well, it is summer. It's time, really, isn't it?' by which I meant to start actually repairing things, or for him to be truthful about not wanting to or not being able to repair things, and let me make my own decision as to what I do in response to that. He nodded. It was all very quiet and civil.

In the end we agreed to meet on Friday for a short walk and talk about it a bit more. I said I wanted to hear what he had to say - the no holds barred truth with no evasions or game playing - and that I could commit to listening to that carefully if he could offer the same to me. I said I wasn't going to give him hysteria and ultimatums, but I was keen to move forward with my life one way or another and it felt like time for me to start doing that. And that's how we left it.

So I guess we will leave each other alone to mull things over for a few days. The kids came back from school while he was here and he was very proactive with Youngest - doing homework - and he and Eldest had a friendly nice conversation. Eldest was a bit rude with him at one point and I leapt in to challenge that. Perhaps I should have let H do it himself, but I'm not sure he has the confidence to just yet and Eldest did need pulling up on his attitude. He's still picking Youngest up tonight and having him at his own house - I'm sticking to that.

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Please, please walk away if he begins to become abusive and nasty again.

I feel like you guys keep circling and having these convos that get no where. You guys really need a nice sustained period of zero relationship talk

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Yes, I agree. He seems to come to this place now and again, and I open up a bit, and then I either trigger him, or he triggers himself, and becomes unbearable again. When we meet on Friday I am going to take my own car and travel separately so I can leave if he becomes unpleasant. I feel quite certain about this. I am also quite certain that I'm not going to therapy until or unless he's able to communicate like an adult and take some responsibility for himself, and that if therapy becomes another means by which he gets to speak abusively towards me, I will walk out. I am trying to be open to decent behaviour, while blocking unacceptable behaviour.

It hasn't escaped me that this may just be delaying tactics and there's been no heartfelt change. Or that therapy will just demonstrate to me that he has nothing to offer a marriage and I'm correct in walking away. Either way, I will find that out and act accordingly. I think he's picked up on that and whether this is a genuine attempt on his part to respond differently or just another attempt to 'hook' me back into the misery of a limbo that suited him and did not suit me remains to be seen. I'll have my wits about me.

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Alison, you've given him every opportunity and I admire and respect you for that. But I am with Ginger on this, you're locked in a repeating pattern. He treats you like crap, you pull back, he starts reaching out and offering the olive branch, you crack open the door and he treats you like crap again, repeat. If this talk Friday goes the least bit sideways then I hope you will consider telling him you need some period of time away from him with zero R discussions of any kind like Ginger said. I would suggest at least 6 months. You both go your separate ways and have as little to do with each other as possible. Maybe if he realizes he really has lost you then he will consider actually changing his abusive ways, but until then I don't think he will.


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I think that's a good idea and something I was considering myself. Something need to change, and I have the power to change that. I am going to hear him out on Friday - partly because he did speak to me very respectfully yesterday, and partly because, I think, me giving him an ultimatum a couple of weeks ago really upset and angered him (and was a boneheaded move on my part) and we're still dealing with the hangover of that. The ultimatum was the wrong way of going about it, but the spirit behind it - I am done with your cake-eating, poop or get off the pot - is one that I stand by and want to put into action by healthier means. I will listen on Friday, and then we will either be going to therapy or I will be separating finances and going completely dark. He knows that full well. Whether he believes it or not is another issue, but I believe it.

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Alison: you sound like you've reached a turning point. As you say, it's summer. Time for him to step up to his words and follow through with action. He might not be able to give you the truth though, he might not even know it himself. I think a walk is a good idea though, it's much easier to say hard things when side by side.

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I am trying to go into this with no expectations, but what I expect is more evasions, or some grudging capitulation to whatever it is he imagines I want, with the extra resentment thrown in. I'm not interested in that.

I could be wrong though. We had a good - brief - conversation today about his future working hours, and the minor skirmish with Eldest last night and how we'd both want to handle that a little differently in future. He wasn't happy with the consequence I gave (too lenient) and I said I thought he had a point, but I struggle to support him in giving consequences when he sits back and waits for me to do it, then tells me he's unhappy with my decision afterwards without telling me what exactly he wanted to be different. It was very calm and ended up with us both meeting in the middle and deciding on a better approach for next time. That felt like very peaceful and collaborative co-parenting around a major hot-button topic for us - even though the incident itself was pretty minor - so perhaps there is movement in a better direction for us as parents, if not us as a couple.

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Originally Posted by AlisonUK
I think that's a good idea and something I was considering myself. Something need to change, and I have the power to change that. I am going to hear him out on Friday - partly because he did speak to me very respectfully yesterday, and partly because, I think, me giving him an ultimatum a couple of weeks ago really upset and angered him (and was a boneheaded move on my part) and we're still dealing with the hangover of that. The ultimatum was the wrong way of going about it, but the spirit behind it - I am done with your cake-eating, poop or get off the pot - is one that I stand by and want to put into action by healthier means. I will listen on Friday, and then we will either be going to therapy or I will be separating finances and going completely dark. He knows that full well. Whether he believes it or not is another issue, but I believe it.


Sounds like a great plan Alison, good luck!


Last edited by AnotherStander; 06/12/19 04:09 PM.

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Alison, you sound so grounded and solid and confident, it’s really great to read and it’s inspiring. You sound more and more detached, and I’m taking notes over here! I look forward to hearing how your walk goes. I think it’s super smart of you to drive yourself there separately, and calmly excuse yourself if it goes sideways. Looking forward to your update!

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I feel more detached. I know giving an ultimatum the way I did was both undignified and manipulative and ineffective. I think I needed to hear myself say it more than he needed to hear it from me. It isn't a course of action I recommend and I doubt it brought us one inch closer to R, but it did bring me much much more clarity on what was on offer from him and what wasn't, and how dysfunctional and unacceptable the cake-eating situation had become. I wish there'd been a healthier way for me to achieve that for myself. But it is what it is.

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You didn't ask for this. It was thrust upon you. You are doing your very best. It is what it is because of things set into motion long before BD. It's good to see you focus on what YOU need to do and get clarity. I'm sorry it was painful getting there. I don't think any of us handle the cake-eating well. We do our best. There are many cogs in the wheel, but from what I've been reading of your sitch, you have always done what you believed to be the best for everyone.

I hope you are able to find peace during these upcoming talks. hugs!


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Unfortunately, I do not think that this is how people come back together and R. Your belief that it is now summer, that he has had enough time, and that perhaps he owes you an explanation, does not change the reality. The R talks also go against the general advice here. Look, I get it -- you are hurt, you want clarity and you want to know what direction to move in. Limbo SVCKS! ...

The thing is tho, he has already told you --with his actions and words over time -- that he is not in this with you. He left you and he treats you poorly. You already know that. You deserve someone that is willing to change and commit to you. Stop taking his table scraps and thinking by talking more they will become the full course meal. You gotta value yourself more than taking his crumbs, sister.

The only way to get him back is to turn the other cheek and let him go. If he were recommitting to you, remorseful and willing to do anything to save this M, you would already know. I'm sorry to say that, but you would. There would be no reason so set up a time to talk about it. Because HE would be apologizing, pursuing you and trying all on his own. That is what happens when men come back to their Ws and you will know when it is happening! You cannot force him with your timeline. Often men won't do that until they think they have lost you. That was certainly the case in my sitch. My advice to you -- whatever that is worth -- would be to cancel this meeting, and wake up every morning and read Sandi's rules. Then start actually following them. I do not see in your posts (or in Dilly's sitch) where you have given the DB philosophy a true and real shot. I see you both just being friendly and validating one another ....

Maybe down the road he will change, show you someone that has changed and come back and become a decent man that can treat you right. Or maybe he wont. In the mean time, your energy can be taken away from mind reading and waiting, or worse trying to have more R talks, and can be better served with GAL, self-care, and being a great mom and woman! If he doesn't want a W like that, then HIS LOSS! There are plenty of good men that do.

Sorry for the 2by4s, I just don't see how validating and cheering you on is actually helping you move forward. Let him go to get him back and if he doesn't, you wont want him anyways. So simple yet so true, but I never said it was easy to do!

Blu

Last edited by BluWave; 06/12/19 06:33 PM.

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Thanks Blu. I get a lot of truth about what you're saying. I've made a lot of mistakes and I haven't DB'd perfectly, and not at all some weeks. All that is true. I haven't asked for an R talk, I've asked for him to collaborate on separating our finances. He wants to go to therapy and I'm reluctant. He's asked to talk, and because he was respectful, I am willing to hear him out, see if he's willing to collaborate like an adult, and, if not, as I've said, the plan is to separate finances legally (which will be more expensive without his collaboration, but perfectly possible) and go dark. I don't want to force him to do anything. The ultimatum was an attempt at that, and was misguided and a really bad idea. This is me going ahead, and if he wants to come along, great, and if not, I will go and do what I was going to do anyway and leave him behind. I suspect the latter is much more likely than the former because - like you say - he left me and treated me poorly - but it will be an end to the standing and limbo from my end of things.

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Thanks for the proxy 2x4 Blu smile I'm going to take it on board.
I get you, Alison, it seems like you've got the strength to be ok with or without him, and limbo is a horrible place to be and you've had enough of being there. I feel like the ultimatum was you getting enough rejection to detach a bit but you still sound like you just want to move forward now.

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Alison you have been open and honest and they are great qualities. Going through this is so hard , especially when you are putting in so much effort with control and restraint. The detachment is the hardest thing in the world but it will come if your H continues to treat you badly and neglect you .

How are you going to focus on yourself and away from H ? Get on the GAL with your friends, family and kids . A stand up comedy show ? A day out at the races ? Theme park ? I feel you deserve better and maybe if H sees you being the strong, fun loving girl who people love to be around and is soaring in life he may be drawn to you . I expect it won’t happen overnight and will be months at least if it is going to happen , but what is the alternative? You can do it , be a success story

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Originally Posted by BluWave

The thing is tho, he has already told you --with his actions and words over time -- that he is not in this with you. He left you and he treats you poorly. You already know that. You deserve someone that is willing to change and commit to you. Stop taking his table scraps and thinking by talking more they will become the full course meal. You gotta value yourself more than taking his crumbs, sister.

The only way to get him back is to turn the other cheek and let him go. If he were recommitting to you, remorseful and willing to do anything to save this M, you would already know. I'm sorry to say that, but you would. There would be no reason so set up a time to talk about it. Because HE would be apologizing, pursuing you and trying all on his own. That is what happens when men come back to their Ws and you will know when it is happening! You cannot force him with your timeline. Often men won't do that until they think they have lost you.
Blu



I am gonna go ahead and count this one for myself as well. Wow. This is SO true and I felt it like a punch to the gut when I read it. None of the mind reading/word dissecting/ or microscopic shifts are meaningful at all. If they were trying to come back, we’d know it. I’m suddenly reminded of the saying “he’s just not that into you” as it applies to women who make 1 billion excuses for when a guy doesn’t call after a few dates. UGH. I feel somewhat liberated and also quite ill. This was exactly what I needed at this point. Thank you Blu!

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GAL needs some work. I'm working mainly from home at the moment, in a quiet period. It means I can pretty much please myself, and also that I'm alone most of the time. I get out to a beach or the park or somewhere beautiful every day on my own, and often also with the kids. I'm taking the time to spend some special time with Eldest once or twice a week when Youngest is with H. I meet up with my friends for coffee - and rarely talk about my situation - at least twice a week, if not more. I talk on the phone with friends almost every day. I'm a member of a spiritual practice group and I go once a week - I could go three times a week, but as I'm in on my own with the kids most night, I feel worried about leaving them that often. As Youngest will be having his contact time at his father's house and not here from now on, I could and should get out a bit more.

My concentration is shot. I'm not reading much, not working much, and my house admin is totally behind. The bills are paid, but I need to sort out my accounts and deal with some tax matters and I haven't bothered. Those things really need dealing with.

I'm not being creative at all (this is my work but also my GAL) and I haven't introduced any new hobbies since separation, and I would like to. I'd really like to get to the cinema a bit more - there's a good independent cinema I haven't spent enough time in.

I also need to put in some work for my promotion at work. There's a significant amount of preparatory work to do. I have had some initial meetings with a mentor and my boss, and I have the paperwork - it's just a case of getting started on it. The deadline is nowhere near, but I do need to start working through the stuff to give the people lined up to help me time to read the package and give feedback.

I'm getting friends to help me sort out the garden this weekend. I could do more there too - do some planting or landscaping. I've never gardened before and I don't know the first thing about it, but I have the time and means and I am healthy and physically capable.

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Does eldest have his own time with H then? They sound like very sensible GAL plans, a mixture of new things and friends and looking after yourself and your relationships, I too would like to go to the cinema more. I think just having a list of films handy and booking ahead is the way to actually follow through with that intention. I think your dog (and resultant walking) probably qualifies as a new hobby? But there's always scope for more!

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Oh yes. Dog has been a total life saver. Gets me out and about every day, exercise and fresh air, and also talking to new people every day. I didn't know this, but dog walkers are a very chatty bunch. I remember their dogs' names but not the human names! Must work on that...

Mission for today: go and book myself a few cinema tickets, however this talk with H does or doesn't go. The weather is appalling so I think even the most die-hard GAL advocates will forgive me for leaving it as it is - slightly bedraggled but generally respectable - today!

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I hope the talk today goes well, and yes, go book those tickets!

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Alison,

I love your GAL activities!! I took myself to see "Secret life of pets II" and laughed my head off!! I deliberately sought out a comedy with no love traps! Don't need to be triggered in a movie theatre lol

Just commented on Dilly's thread re: Blu's 2x4. I definitely needed to read that (and have read it countless times since).

Hope your talk goes well and that you feel strong and confident and sure!! Garden and work are good for you right now, I'm jealous of the friends you have nearby to help! Focus on the people who love you.


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Ultimatums are never good. They push people into a corner, and people pushed in corners come out fighting. But it is also no good worrying about things that have already passed. Get up and brush yourself off (which it sounds like you're doing).

Alison, read back through your posts. There is so much less H, and so much more Alison in them now. You are looking forward and doing things for you. BTW - looking forward is not the same as looking away.

There are so many good films out now. I just took the kids to watch MIB. D12 is a huge Chris Hemsworth fan (so am I tbh :)).

((Hugs))


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Thank you everyone for kind messages and encouragement.

So - Friday was weird. Not awful, but odd. He started by wanting to talk about how uncomfortable he felt at the prospect of taking Youngest to a school event later that day - there was a loose plan that H would take him as Friday was his usual day, but I was willing to come along if it was what Youngest wanted. H spoke at length, and I validated, about how uncomfortable he was thinking that other school parents knew our business. I haven't spoken to anyone and don't really have school mum friends - but I validated anyway. We went on our walk and it was okay - in that he was polite, if a bit withdrawn. We talked about finances - he wants to pay half of Youngest's childcare costs and a third of the mortgage, which seems very fair to me given I earn more than he does. So we agreed that for the time being. We also talked about Youngest's birthday, he said he'd take Youngest to see his family at their home, and we'd split costs for the party and presents 50/50 and that was more than fine with me, so that was good too. We talked a bit about therapy - he'd found a therapist, and he talked a bit about what he wanted to get out of it. He wanted to repair things, but said he didn't know what his contribution was towards what had gone wrong, and was hoping the therapist would tell him that. I said I knew I had work to do on taking care of my own feelings and valuing his wants and needs, and I was open to hearing other things that I hadn't thought of. I said I was worried that I'd done the work of thinking and looking inwards, and that he hadn't, and that when I've tried to ask him for changes - like an end to the sarcasm and verbal abuse - that it either made him angry, or he got defensive, or he blamed it on me, and none of that made me feel that he was in a place where hearing any of that from me in a therapy room would make any difference. I could see some changes - he talked about being hurt, and struggling with his anger - and that was new, and I've not heard him be open about his feelings like that or take responsibility for them. So in the end I decided I would go to therapy with him, and he emailed the therapist and asked for an appointment.

The weird thing was - well - I felt little. Not happy or hopeful or relieved. It was difficult to make conversation with him. I tried asking him a little about his work, which just unleashed another torrent of moaning and complaints. I tried chatting to him about my work, and what the kids had been up to, but he didn't seem interested. It was... well, boring. I couldn't think of a single thing to talk to him about other than practicalities, and we'd covered those pretty amicably. We were a little affectionate with each other - held hands a little - but he felt remote, like a stranger, and I was struggling to remember what we used to talk about. I enjoyed the walk, but hand on heart I think I'd have enjoyed it more with a friend, with the kids or alone.

I went to take Youngest to the school event, and he stayed in the house and made tea. He wanted me to tell Youngest that he had a work meeting and couldn't go, and I said I didn't feel comfortable lying. In the end Youngest didn't ask, and we had a nice meal together.

It all went a bit south in the evening - he'd bought some beer and got a bit tipsy, and Eldest was awkward and difficult and combative, I stuck to the agreement we'd made about boundaries and consequences, but he didn't - and approached Eldest with usual contempt and sarcasm. It's like he'd rather sneer and make a catty remark than say 'don't speak to me that way,' and I don't understand it. I went into the kitchen and said, 'I know this is stressful. Let's tackle this together the way we agreed. I'm on your side,' and he huffed and shrugged me away. His mood tanked further the more he drank and he started being very snappy and irritable. The dog jumped up and attacked some knitting that was near him, and I called out to him with urgency (I was trying to get his attention - not angry, just a bit louder than usual) but before I could ask him to retrieve the knitting, he was on his feet ranting and shouting. I stayed calm (both kids where there) and asked him to stop. He was ranting - saying I was attacking him and shouting at him. I said 'I just called your name, once,' and he said he wouldn't be blamed for the dog, etc etc - it was really crazy stuff. I asked him again to calm down. I said I just wanted to get his attention. I spoke really quietly and respectfully and he said I was shouting at him and telling him off. I know 100% that I wasn't. The kids witnessed all of this, which i regret. I didn't see any way of rescuing the evening.There was no convincing him. I said I thought I should call him a taxi so he could go home (he was past driving at that point) and that inflamed him so much he packed up his stuff and left there and then.

No contact since. I'm not upset and I wasn't really at the time - other than the fact the kids had to see him in that state and what could have been a pleasant family meal went south. I actually feel a lot of pity for him. I think he'd really really like to repair things with me, just as I thought I wanted to - but who he is right now I don't want, and I don't think he's capable of being someone that could have a relationship with someone healthy. He doesn't seem to enjoy normal family life (the normal noise and mess of kids on a Friday after school evening was clearly more than he could cope with) and if I'm honest, I didn't enjoy his company at all. He helped in the house - cooking and cleaning and hung a wash load out for me - and he was mainly civil until he started drinking - but it was like having a vaguely unpleasant stranger in the house. Not exactly a guest, but a distant and slightly annoying relative who had made themselves a bit too much at home.

My emotions now are fairly steady. I feel sorry for him. Really really sorry for him. He's in a bad way and he clearly isn't well. And I'm okay. I've been in a bad way, but I am recovering and better every day, and as soon as he started with his reactivity, I thought, 'ah no, I"m not sitting here and having this again.'

Charitably, I can see that he's still so afraid of being stuck in an awful marriage - as we were - that he's hugely, hugely reactive to the tiniest thing. Perhaps he doesn't want to go to therapy, he's just offering that because he doesn't want to get divorced, and he resents me for that choice. I have no idea. What I can see is that he has no capacity for humour or generosity or curiosity. The drinking on top of whatever mental health stuff he's suffering - stress, depression, anxiety - obviously makes him unfit for any real meaningful interaction. But even beyond all that - when we were out on the walk and the practical things I wanted to address with him had been addressed - the conversation was stilted, painfully awkward. Boring. There was just nothing much there. He's not really doing anything other than working, and brooding, and playing computer games. He's exercising a bit more, which I'm glad about, but he didn't really want to talk about that either. And in the evening, he kept getting on my nerves and I kept having to train myself to think kind thoughts about him (make excuses for him, deny the reality of who he is and how I feel about him now) rather than just enjoy his company or get on with my own evening.

It was a bit of an eye-opener, and that's no bad thing.

I doubt very much that he will pursue this therapist when she comes back and offers an appointment. That's probably no bad thing either. Today I can't really think of any reason, other than attachment to a memory of a long time ago, why I'd want him.

I think my priority now is myself, GAL, detachment and the kids. I haven't thought longer term than that. If he sticks to the financial agreement he made with me, then this can stand as it is. And if he doesn't, I have recourse.

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I've woken up today quite worried about H. One of the things he spoke to me about when we were out walking that upset him was the fact that a while ago I let some of my houseplants die. He said it made him sad. He sounded angry. I tried to validate and understand, but how it felt was just one of a long list of minor and fairly irrational criticisms he has of me. Some of his criticisms have been warranted, and when I've taken action to correct them (my 180s) he's just moved the criticism to some other area of my life or personality or behaviour. That makes me think the problem is in him and in his heart and attitude and only partly to do with me and my actions.

I get he's spinning and just trying to find reasons for the fact that he doesn't like living with me and wishes he did. His answer to that seems to be that I change, but the bar is set so impossibly high it feels he'd only be happy with a silent, ever smiling, perfectly absent yet domestically flawless robot. The single thing I am asking for as a bottom line condition for going to MC is that he stops the verbal abuse, and he can't manage that, but also wants me to resurrect a couple of dead spider plants... he also, when we were walking, talked about booking a family holiday for the summer. I didn't agree to that, or disagree, but I remember thinking at the time that it was a terrible idea, and not what I wanted, and that I'd been imagining somewhere sunny with me and the two kids and him being there would just spoil it. It's also crazy that he seems to want those things when he's so unbelievably unhappy with who I am as a person, even when I'm just minding my own business and getting on with things. It's more crazy behaviour. I also know if I said, 'okay, yes, let's book the holiday - where shall we go?' that he'd say I was pressuring him and chasing him and annoying him - he is so incapable of interacting honestly and healthily.

I get we're all irrational when we're emotional - but generally I calm down after a while and can say, 'whew, that was an over-reaction,' but he seems to genuinely believe that stuff about the houseplants. It wasn't all he said, but it struck me at the time as the justifications of someone flailing and struggling to find new things to blame me for, and also as totally irrational. The way he over-reacted last night was also really something. I didn't feel unsafe and he wasn't as bad as I've seen him, but it was unacceptable and he shows little sign of being able to control his angry reactions to very basic and minor things. I don't want to R with him anymore but I am deeply concerned about his mental state.

I'd hoped that some time off would ease his mind a bit, but the reactivity and craziness is there under the surface. I am reacting to it differently - more detached - and it doesn't panic or upset me any more. I felt very calm in telling him I'd call him a taxi, and very relieved when he left. I am concerned for his sake, and the children's. I accept I can't fix him, can't control him, can't even really influence him - and I don't want to - but the worry is there all the same. I remember my own PND and how paranoid and reactive and crazy I got when it was really bad, and how little insight I had into what was going on with me. It was like my brain was broken - and I recognise that in him now, even though he doesn't himself.

It's Father's Day. He's going to pick up Youngest and take him to see his own Father. The kids have made him some cards which was nice, so I will make sure he gets those but I don't plan to do anything else for him or with him. I'm seeing a friend today for brunch and a walk, and plan to catch up on a bit of work this afternoon while the kids are out and busy.


Oh - and Dilly, you asked if Eldest has time with H. Well, no is the answer. Eldest is very angry at H and that comes out in some pretty unacceptable behaviour sometimes. I've been addressing that with him. When H used to come over to see Youngest in the house, Eldest would often make remarks like, 'I'm so glad Mum kicked you out,' and H would really react to this - understandably enough. I'm very very firm that this isn't acceptable, and I've backed that up by making time to really listen to Eldest and understand his point of view. It's a two pronged thing - validating the feelings and putting boundaries around the behaviour. Eldest feels very left out and hurt and sad - he's asked H to go on walks with him a couple of times, and H makes excuses not to go. I can see why H wouldn't want to spend time with someone who is pretty vile to him at times, but on the other hand, Eldest is the son and not the parent, and has been hurt and disappointed. When Eldest does make these kind of remarks to H, despite our agreements, H tends to respond with sarcasm and nastiness (Eldest is seeing a counsellor, and H knows about this and has, on two occasions, mocked him for it). Eldest's feeling is that why should he stop behaviour that H is 'allowed' to do. And I get that. If I keep out of it and leave them to it, then H is angry with me and feels unsupported. I've tried to back H up by attempting to include him in the parenting plan, but he isn't able to stick with it and instead of responding with assertiveness, he'll have a tantrum. Eldest has no respect at all for him and I can see why. And he still tries to offer the olive branch and seek his approval and attention sometimes, and is deeply hurt that all his love and energy is being poured into Youngest in front of him, and i can get that. It's a mess and other than what I'm currently doing, it isn't possible for me to repair it.

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Originally Posted by AlisonUK
I get he's spinning and just trying to find reasons for the fact that he doesn't like living with me and wishes he did. His answer to that seems to be that I change, but the bar is set so impossibly high it feels he'd only be happy with a silent, ever smiling, perfectly absent yet domestically flawless robot.


It's not a bar, it's a moving target.
At this point he is unable to be happy with anyone/anything. Remember, it's where HE is. Not you.

Several months in I had to tell H that while I was very sorry that he was upset and hurting, I could no longer listen to the laundry list of his complaints about me unless he was willing and able to work together to find solutions to OUR problems. AnotherStander had a lot of insight into responding to these 'lists of faults'. Validate, but do not take credit for their emotions or reactions. I decided to glean from H what I knew to be true and work on those areas that I needed to change no matter who I was in relationship with, and let any petty criticisms roll off my back.

I know you are worried about him. I'm worried about mine, also. But remember, we didn't break them, we can't fix them.

In my sitch, I know for a fact that how much he is drinking is scary and will lead to bad things, but he can't hear that from me. I am enemy #1. I took a big gulp of the smoothie and just listened. As soon as I accepted that and stopped commenting on anything, I saw that he started telling me that he was drinking too much. Ive noticed that the less I 'notice' about him and focus on my stuff, the more he wants to share with me his struggles.

Re: your eldest. Might be time for counseling. Something I tell my S17 is that I understand that he is angry with H but S is in charge of his responses and I want him to have healthy coping skills, and then I try to model that. I'm also quite honest about my feelings, so he can feel less alone in his. Priority in that area is not getting involved in their relationship (My ic reminded me that my relationship with S is mine and H's relationship with S is theirs) but just listen and validate S.

Reality check: would you ever in a million years think that it is wise to draw a parallel between someone's ability to keep a houseplant alive and their relational aptitude? Of course not. Try not to get too close to that tornado.


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97Hope - you're right. I feel very calm today. The houseplant comment did a lot to help me move forward in detaching.

I think he's finally run out of complaints about the past - or at least he knows my response will be 'You have many reasons to be angry. I'd like to work together on a relationship that makes both of us feel happy and if you don't want that, I won't stand in your way,' so he doesn't really get the 'fix' of me being upset and eager to placate him anymore. So now he brings in things about the present. Houseplants! It's laughable. I think in the time he was here he complained that the leather on the sofa felt a bit rough and dry, that the garden wasn't tidy enough, that I'd not washed the tomatoes well enough, that the kids were being too noisy, that Eldest wasn't sharing nicely enough, that I shouldn't have asked the children if they wanted to play a card game with me after the meal, that I shouldn't have commented on something he was watching on the television, that I shouldn't ask him not to be sarcastic with me, but just bite my lip and bear it, that I had let some houseplants die, that the bin for garden refuse was too full, etc etc. I mainly just 'hmm' or validate and if it is something I agree needs doing, quietly do it, and if not, just let it pass. Then his complaints are that I am not taking his wants and needs seriously enough. When I try to consider his wants and needs - ie - he was moaning about the garden, so I bought some new lawn seed and fertiliser - he will respond with a lot of contempt and sarcasm - eye rolling and catty remarks. There's no comforting or pleasing him, so I am moving towards just not bothering. Who he is right now made him incredibly boring and tiresome to be around on Friday, and that was before he started drunkenly ranting about me using his name in the wrong tone of voice and everything he imagined was going on in my head in that moment. He's also very paranoid that I talk about him to others (I have a couple of friends he doesn't know who I do talk about the situation with, but never to mutual friends or acquaintances) and seems to hold me responsible for whatever he imagines is happening there. Nothing I can or feel inclined to do about that, nor some dead houseplants.

Eldest is in counselling and it's really helping. I set boundaries around disrespectful talk and behaviour, and there are consistent consequences for it. We're communicating much better, and most of our time together is really lovely - though he's especially difficult when H is around. Obviously H doesn't see the lovely side of him anymore, and isn't capable of looking at himself and wondering why that might be. Eldest's perspective is that it isn't fair I hold him to a higher standard than I hold H to. He has an excellent point, except I'm his parent and I'm not my H's parent, or even my H's wife right now. That's been a very hard concept for me to get my head around, so it is so wonder that a teenager struggles with it. Eldest has also seen me respond to H's delightful nature in very unhealthy ways - I take ownership of that - and it's going to take a lot of consistent 180ing and him witnessing that before I am past the point where he might think I should practice what I preach.

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Alison: your H is reminding me sooooo much of yours right now. Just plain miserable and confused and unable to engage in an R like an adult. And NOTHING we do is ever good enough, because it's nothing to do with what we do anyway, it's all about their inner pain. You're dealing with it well, keep up those boundaries.

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There really was no time off for him to cool off.

Please, his behavior is so unacceptable , you should not be accepting it. You killed houseplants? Come on now.

Please. Go dark. No more walks, no more talks. Set some firm boundaries here.

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How do they not appreciate how much we love them? How do they not see that they can do the damndest things, and we still fight for them?


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"The key to fighting for your M is to stop fighting for your M"

Read that thread again last night and it is on point. Alison, I think Ginger is right. Going dark will probably be a huge relief for you and a kindness for your H. Give him something else to be miserable about. He will continue to lay it at your door as long as you allow it.
That's what I meant about validating sometimes not working long term. It gets to a point to where they start grasping at ANYTHING to lay at your feet.

He will no doubt accuse you of x, y & z when you go dark, but at this point you are being blamed for the reason the sky is blue and the grass green, so you can just not accept it and take some time to breathe.



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Oh yes, dark is definitely the plan. He has nothing at all to offer that I need now we've come to some reasonable financial arrangement. If he's not reliable on that, I will formalise a divorce, but so long as he's regular about his responsibilities towards the house and his children, then that's fine.

Lots of GAL today. And all set for the working week in my not-up-to-scratch house with my unwashed fruit in the bowl and my sofa, where the leather is too dry. I feel happy and cosy and looking forward to getting stuck into my work tomorrow with some more vigour and direction.

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Originally Posted by AlisonUK
in my not-up-to-scratch house with my unwashed fruit in the bowl and my sofa, where the leather is too dry.


I don't know why but this cracked me right up!!! you forget dead houseplants, though ; )

Hope the work goes well for you!!


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Originally Posted by 97Hope
[you forget dead houseplants, though ; )



Dead, but never forgotten. I keep their tragic memory alive in my heart. smile

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Alison, I am very worried about you. I think you should be very afraid of your H and you are not. He is extremely abusive, and I've seen too many men like him that started out with verbal and emotional abuse and later escalated to physical abuse. He is a loose cannon and one of these days he will explode and someone is going to get hurt, either you or one of the kids. Just be very careful. I agree with Ginger, no more walks or talks, no more having him over. You need to establish some hard boundaries to keep you and the kids safe. You keep saying you will, but then a few days later you'll post that he came over for dinner and such. It really needs to stop unless and until he gets some in-depth counseling and (hopefully) medication.

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I get you, yes. And yes, I did agree to have this walk with him - out in public and with my own car at the ready - because I wanted to get some forward motion on financial separation. That was achieved. My mistake was to then basically enable him to duck out of the school event, which he's uncomfortable about because of his paranoia, and let him get his feet under the table at my house. I let my guard down because we'd had a fairly amicable conversation, and because I felt pity for him. Given the way it ended up, and given that my sense of self preservation is greater than my pity, that won't be happening again. He doesn't have a key to my house and his levels of comfort at school events aren't my concern. He can overcome it, or arrange a child minder to pick up Youngest on the days he is responsible for. I am continuing with NC and GAL and feeling very steady about it. If he doesn't stick to what he has agreed regarding finances, I won't contact him about that, but just go through a solicitor to buy him out of the house and go through our government agency for child support costs. That is the plan and I am - and have been (only a few days, I know, but all the same) sticking to it. I am open for more suggestions as to how to go forward, but I think what is most useful to me now is advice about GAL and how to best support my children, as I don't plan to have any interactions with him now.

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That's perfect! Print that out and when in doubt, read it :-) You can do this Alison! Be strong!


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You can do this!!! I like AS's suggestion to print it out. It's on point and exactly you getting your power back. Stay strong and when in doubt, remind yourself that you must not dance with a tornado. You sound strong and sure. Just keep reminding yourself of your own strength and how far you've come. The only person telling you that you are weak at this point is an H that is taken over by an alien and you, so remind yourself of the truth. What we tell ourselves about ourselves is important. Good to have friends remind us of the truth, but only if we listen to it. <3


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Just chuckling so hard at the leather sofa stuff. Mind boggling, the things that unhappy people zoom in on to justify their unhappiness, isn't it? Anything except look in the mirror.

I mean to say: don't agree to MC. Tell him he has to do IC first in order for you to even think about MC. I don't think you are considering MC now, but in case he pushes it.

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This is really sad. The same cycle continues. Nothing is changing for the better.

Dilly, why should she tell him what he has to do at all (go to IC for her to go to MC)? He is an adult and it is HIS choice if he wants to help himself at all. Nothing in DB says to force someone to go to IC or MC or tell them what to do at all. We are all people of our own free will. It's quite obvious by his continued patterns of abuse and blame that he doesn't have a genuine interest in working on himself and making positive changes. You cannot force someone to do this or negotiate it. Again, none of what I am reading here is aligned with the DB advice or philosophy.

I am with Ginger and AS and am frankly concerned about the abuse. And there has already been physical violence, she just did not elaborate on what it was. That is fine and I respect her privacy. I am personally just not humored by him harping on dead house plants and sofas. I think he is treating you terribly and I don't understand why you continue to allow it. Your eldest son sounds as if he has some behavioral problems. That is very, very difficult, even without parents fighting and acting up in front of a teen. Could it be that he is acting out worse because he sees the behavior of you both and also sees that you are defending H's abuse? Are either of you demonstrating how to communicate respectfully? Yet you are expecting him to? I understand that parents should ideally stick together when disciplining kids, but you do not have a healthy, respectful and mature other parent, if not, you are just defending his abuse. What message does that send your teenager?

When you responded to my last post, you said that you were getting together with H to discuss separation of finances. It doesn't appear that way at all, or that there was any productive conversation. It sounds like more of the same -- him being abusive, nagging and blaming you, and then you trying to draw up a boundary, but actually validating and allowing his abuse. Your continued sympathy and concern for his well being -- as he mistreats you -- is also quite troubling in my mind. Again, you have these posters validating you and cheering you on, some I doubt you want to listen to me. I am happy to bow out at any time. Just say the words and I am gone. I personally cannot see how these posters are helping you handle things better.

I feel sorry for you, Allison, not your H, not at all. As you describe him, he is not a good person, H and father. I hope you can see that.I really wish you could move on from him and that you can find your worth. Then some day you can find a partner that knows how to treat you. You and your kids deserve that. Your kids also deserve a safe and comfortable home environment in the mean time. That is number one right now. Enough is enough.

Blu


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Blu - thank you for your thoughts, and no, I don't want you to bow out of the thread!

Other than what I've done - met up with him to separate finances (we agreed something I think it fair and workable for the time being) set a boundary around him inviting his family to my house (they aren't coming) and gone dark on him - there's been no messages, no contact, hand-over of Youngest for contact either at school or at the front door and as I have said in several posts, I plan to keep it that way and feel very steady and sure about that decision.

I am not sure what further suggestions you have? If you have an idea for something over and above what I am currently doing, I am open to hearing it - that is why I am here.

I won't be going to MC with him and I won't, for the reasons you suggest, be suggesting or asking or demanding that he goes to IC himself. He'd obviously benefit from it, but that's not my business.

My son is troubled, yes - partly to do with an ongoing and quite serious medical condition he has and partly to do with the state of my marriage and the behaviour he's seen from both of us. I've consulted a family therapist about how best to parent him and regain my confidence at setting boundaries. She said his behaviour was on the difficult side of normal for teenagers of his age, and I've been following her advice to the letter. Eldest also sees a counsellor, and I've seen massive improvements in the last couple of months. He's really only difficult when he has to be in contact with H, and unless they sort it out between themselves, that won't be happening for the foreseeable.

I'm in IC myself, working on confidence to set boundaries and move forward, as well as deal with the influences from my childhood that have allowed me to accept the unacceptable from now on.

My focus now isn't really on my H. I don't want to see or talk to him and while I will co-parent with him civilly, I'm not interested in having any more family meals or holidays or anything like that with him. My focus is on my own recovery, GAL and my children - as I've said previously.

I use a bit of humour in my posts about my H - yes. And no, the situation isn't funny, it is very sad, and the responsibility for accepting the unacceptable is on me. I get that. But humour is just my way of reminding myself that my husband's complaints are no longer my problem. Sometimes that makes me feel giddy with delight and freedom. I've been ground down by his criticism and anger for a long time. Since he left I've been holding my breath for this magical change he promised would happen once he completed his work project in May. That clearly hasn't happened, so I am moving on. Perhaps it was silly of me to believe it, but I wanted to give him and my marriage that one chance. I did, I don't regret it, it wasn't to be so I am moving on.

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Journalling.

Nothing new to report here. NC with H other than drop offs for Youngest at the door. I say hello in a friendly way but don't ask him how he is or anything, and make sure my focus and attention is on Youngest. He sent an affectionate good morning text message the other day and I deleted it as soon as I saw what it was. It's easy to be nice to someone over text. I don't want to be around someone who can't manage basic civility in person consistently.

Been concentrating on GAL - booked a holiday for me and the kids in the summer, also a special weekend for Eldest and me while Youngest is with his father one weekend. Also working really steadily on this application - gosh it is boring, but if I get it my work will be even more flexible, and a little better paid - and those are two things that will be good for me no matter what happens.

I got some good news about a work project yesterday. Something I've been working on for a couple of years now coming to fruition, and there's a chance there could be a really good financial bonus in it for me. Not life-changing, but substantial. Usually I would want to ring H and share the good news with him right away. My first thought this time was 'I don't want to have to share this cash with him when we divorce.' I'm not saying that's a particularly kind or fair or pleasant thought, but it was where my head was at - the wish to protect myself rather than connect with him.

I don't know if detachment and dropping the rope happens all at once like this (I feel like a switch has been flicked - or at least, I was moving towards the final break - first by how he was when I needed to take Eldest to hospital, then by how he was when he was in my house last week...) but all desire to have his attention or approval or affection seems to have gone entirely. I don't know if I will slip back into my old ways, but I can't really see it happening today.

The challenge here is to guard myself against contempt. I am feeling a fair bit of that towards him and I don't like it. It makes no difference to him - of course - but I don't want to be bitter. If there's a time in the future where we can co-parent in a friendly and amicable way, that would be better for the kids, and while he's not capable of that now, I don't want to be so corroded by bitterness that I'm not up to it either, should the opportunity arise.

So today I am working, staying in to get a parcel, and doing a bit of cleaning.

The cleaning is a strange thing too. When he first left the house was spic and span - you could eat your dinner off of my floors! He was always so controlling about housework and had such weirdly high standards that I think I thought if he could see how well I was obeying his desires he would want to come back. Then I went through a phase of doing nothing at all - the house was pretty untidy and mucky - just because I was relishing not having to live under his instruction. Now I think the way my house is has nothing to do with him at all, and I am just finding out what my own preferences and standards are.

I know all that sounds quite trivial, but it is a sign of progress for me. Up until about a month ago I was still getting sweaty palms at the thought of him coming to pick up Youngest and seeing that my bed was unmade. Today, I can't actually remember if I made it or not and at the moment, I don't care.

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Alison, it sounds like your are doing great! I love reading your updates, except for how your H treats you. YOU deserve so much better. Congratulations on your project!


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Thank you. I am so totally bored with how H treats me. And bored with myself too - all that effort spent in trying to work him out, and understand him, and make allowances for him, and work on myself to be content with crumbs, or adjust my behaviour to extract something better from him. I am so BORED and TIRED of that. I am sure I will have sad days and days when I backtrack on this progress - I'm not where I want to be yet - YET - but I do feel that in the past couple of weeks I have been slowly turning a corner.

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That sounds good Alison, glad to hear you're not letting him manipulate you again! Stick with it!

Regarding flipping the switch, I think that does happen a lot, especially with LBW's. They try and try and try to appease their wayward H to lure him back but at some point they realize they are wasting their time and he's not going to change until he hits rock bottom, which he never will as long as she remains his Plan B. So they shut the door and focus completely on themselves and the kids. You might backslide a few more times but I think you're coming out of the LBS fog.


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Yes. I think once I close that door, it's closed though. I'm not sure I am there yet, but I feel I will be soon. This isn't some technique to shock him into being nice to me, this me me choosing what kind of life I want to have, and realising one without him in it is better than one with him in.

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I like how you are focusing on your progress and becoming more self-aware!!! I struggled with the tidy house, too and then realized what I was going - trying to please H. Not ok. So I adjusted my sails. Sounds like where you are. Right now you absolutely have a better life without him in it - dead plants and all!! (I need humor. It's not funny, but it is ridiculous) Stay in the moment. Trying to know where you will be or how you will feel later is pointless. Today, your life is better. Today you are making good decisions for you and your children. I like this strong, confident bad-a lady. She is a woman only a fool would leave.

Big hugs x


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Just journalling.

I've had a pleasant couple of days - working and seeing friends and making plans for the summer. I saw two friends today - separate meetings - and both of them had an opinion on my situation. The first has noticed how happier and settled I am in the last couple of months, and is urging me to get the ball rolling on a divorce and start dating. The second is saying that H needs to feel the loss of me, that he will get worse before he gets better, but I should take care of myself and have faith that he will come back to himself and want to make a repair.

I found both pretty irritating to be honest, and I don't know why. I don't feel like dating - I do miss intimacy, but that is something that comes slowly, in time, through getting to know someone gradually and at the moment I'd rather fill my time with friends and work and self care than invest into that given that every relationship has problems and difficulties and I really don't feel like putting myself through the ups and downs of that right now. I don't think I have much to give someone new at the moment - I don't mean that in a low self esteem way. I just mean, I don't feel like validating or caring or listening to someone. I realise that sounds selfish. Perhaps it is. I just want to please myself and my children for a while! I also don't feel like sitting at home keeping my heart open until H realises what he is missing (as my second friend suggested) - it's not about what he misses or doesn't miss, it's about what I want and I don't want to make the effort it would take to hold the door open for him anymore. I am not feeling the same contempt as I did a couple of days ago (it might come back!) but I am seeing that there's nothing much he has on offer that I want, and feeling at peace with that.

I don't know what that means about where I am at in terms of detachment, but I have decided I am not going to speak about my situation much with friends anymore. There's really nothing new to report and I want to fill my time and my mind with other things right now. It's been nearly seven months since he moved out, I am bored with being the LBS and I don't want to live that way any longer. I am not LB I am just me.

I've had a couple of very minor contacts with H. I've been friendly but brisk - and I've noticed him watching me very carefully, as if for a reaction. He asked me if there was anything wrong. I said 'no, not at all,' then said goodbye in a friendly way. I don't let him into the house and he doesn't try to come in.

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I am sorry about your friends. I understand what you mean. One of the reasons I prefer posting here is because there is a safety in giving and seeking advice in an anonymous way. We care about our friends/family and when they say things that feel judgmental (because how can they not have judgements and want to protect us!?!) we can lose some safety in the relationships. We might find ourselves censoring what we say or worrying what they think. It can feel crummy.

One of my closest friends for years was a main supporter during my ugly separation. I could call her or text her any time and she was so loving and supportive. I think I might have taken advantage of her generosity because she was always there for me. Then after H came back, she disappeared. Pretty much ghosted me. We did not have a falling out or even a disagreement, and in fact she messaged me that she was happy for me. After months of silence I tried to get in touch with her, only to be met with, "I can't, it's not you, it's me." I gave her space and tried again. She told me the same thing. Nothing changed other than my H coming back. So oddly, I lost a friend over it, and I still am not entirely sure why.

Sorry to go off on a tangent, but I do think that our friends and families are affected by our sitch. If I had known that by turning to her in my crisis I was ruining the friendship, I would not have. I had other supportive friends. They have since told me that something is off with her and not to take it personally, but her giving up on me sure hurt all the same. ... So I think it's okay to talk to your trusted family and friends, but if it never compromises your feelings of safety with them, then it's okay not to share any details with them.

I am glad to read you are feeling a bit stronger and putting up boundaries! I found that when I started doing that more and more, I also felt better about myself. I had to learn to protect myself from him and it worked two-fold: 1. the space gave me a feeling of protection from him and his drama and 2. I learned to trust myself again, that yes, I can take care of myself and no, I don't need him to be okay. It really does work!

And yes, he will watch and he will notice. Sigh. You can just carry on all the same :-)

Blu


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Keep on keeping on, Alison smile

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Thanks, both.

BluWave - I think you're right - all kinds of things will change in my life as a result of the end of my marriage, and it is hard to predict how that is going to shake out. I know that my friends were both trying to be kind and both wanted the best for me, and I also know I want to make decisions on what I think is best for me, and not to get the approval of others - even good kind friends. I wonder if I end up Ring with my H (not likely) then I will displease the couple of friends who have seen me so heartbroken and supported me though my hardest days. If I end up taking steps to divorce him and even end up dating (again, I can't see it right now!) then there will be others who I will displease.

I think I am just growing. Realising that it's okay for my friends not to like my decisions - and that's kind of where I am with H too. I feel I urgently need some space to look inside and start making my own decisions, rather than seeking approval or managing myself solely to get something from someone else. I don't want to play that game any more.

H came around today to pick up Youngest. He tried to start a conversation about his behaviour when he was last in the house - his opening move was 'You seem to be very confused about what actually happened the other night...' which was hilarious because a) he has no idea what my feelings, thoughts or perceptions are because I choose not to bother sharing them with him and b) despite that, it seems he'd still like me to give him the chance to correct whatever he imagines my thinking and feeling to be - which is still emotionally manipulative and disrespectful behaviour. The arrogance is astounding. I wasn't expecting contrition or an apology, but that really takes the biscuit. I am done with validating him while he corrects me. I just ignored it, got Youngest ready and waved them goodbye at the door. I suspect he's going to try to have this argument another few times but I am not available for it.

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You are right— you need to find a way to free yourself from worrying about who you may please or displease with your decisions about your marriage and your life. It’s one thing to be thoughtful and careful with those who are important in this aspect of your life (yourself, your children and family) but you can not worry about what friends and onlookers may think or do. I’m teaching myself that as well smile I know it sounds trite, but real, true friends will not change their relationship with you based on decisions you make for the well being of you and your kids, regardless of what they may think or feel about it. Ive realized that it’s a waste of precious energy and emotional resources to concern ourselves with that stuff. Your real friends (the ones you want to keep) will be there for you with open arms no matter what you do or don’t do. The rest may fall away, and I don’t think that’s necessarily a bad thing.

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Thank you Hope. I guess I am still very sensitive to perceived criticism - or the thought that I am expected to please someone else with decisions that have nothing to do with them. That's a hangover from my marriage and may be me bringing in old rubbish to new interactions, so I will have to watch for that knowing I need to grow in that area.

Nothing much new to report here. I have been very focussed on work and the kids, with time to GAL in the evenings and during this weekend. I'm having a nice time. I feel happy most of the time. Now and again - when I have a busy evening or Youngest is being difficult - I feel resentful towards H. Mainly because I want to dump some of the relentless grunt-work of parenting onto his lap, rather than have him dump it all onto mine. But those feelings are fleeting and I don't act on them.

He has been extremely cordial and almost eager to please in our last interaction. I'm pleased he's being polite - it is much better for Youngest to have that experience when she goes to see her father instead of him being sulky or sullen or argumentative. But the door is closed very firmly.

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Just a bit more journalling.

Work is going really well - some exciting opportunities on the horizon and after a quiet time, a lot of interesting stuff cropping up. I feel like the rest of this year is going to be really interesting for me work wise, and I am looking forward to getting my teeth into that. My work has always been really important to me - sometimes unhealthily so - and I am going to have to watch that I have a good balance between solitude, time for self care and reflection, time to have fun with and nurture the kids, and work. My work is of the type that it is never really done, and will swell to fill the time allowed to it. I have been really dysfunctional and addicted in the past. It had an impact on my marriage but also my health and well being so I am going to watch for that.

Both kids seem settled and happy. Having some good conversations with Eldest, who seems more settled. I know he is very hostile towards H and I wonder if my excluding H from the house, in the light of his poor behaviour and continued verbal and emotional abuse of me, is going to make Eldest feel like he's 'won' in the power struggle he likes to conduct with his father. That would not be good for him. He is still seeing his counsellor and I am still holding firm to the boundaries agreed with the family therapist. He's been very clingy - not seeing friends as much and wanting to be near me a lot of the time - and I also need to make sure that is healthy and he is getting his emotional needs met in other ways (his friends, wider family, etc) and not overly relying on me. It is hard to know what to do best, but I am going to raise it with my IC too and get some guidance.

I'm struggling with a bit of anger today. Nothing new from H - but I keep imagining conversation we might have where I finally get to say all the things I keep to myself in favour of placating him or keeping the peace. Giving him a piece of my mind would not improve our situation nor would it be in the best interests of me or my children. But the anger is there. It's been bubbling away for a while. I feel more and more contempt for him and the way he lives and conducts himself with others. In calmer moods I feel pity. I don't want to be bitter or consumed by these negative feelings. and I certainly am not going to act on them. But they are there today and I am working on letting them pass.

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Sorry for your struggle, you are not alone. Sometimes anger forces us to make good changes if we get to the heart of where it's coming from. You won't always feel this way. I know this because you are dealing with it and not telling yourself to just stop feeling it, but actively working through it. I'm encouraged by your self-awareness!!!

My youngest (17 only S still at home) is incredibly angry and hurt by H, but he acts 'as if'. It's a little heartbreaking. I listen and validate but have completely stepped out of 'fix-it' mode.

It's no wonder you get tired of doing all the parenting when it seems that H is on some type of soul vacation, but it really is H's loss. Even the mundane and tough parts of parenting are missed when they leave home as adults. When I start to get frustrated at my H - I realize that I would not trade places with him for anything. Honestly, as bad as this is, and as much as it hurts sometimes, I'm not blowing up my family and acting like an alien has possessed me. That's not to sound judgmental, I do have compassion for the guy, but I would not want to be living his life right now. He's a mess and it sounds like yours is, too.

hugs


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Originally Posted by 97Hope


It's no wonder you get tired of doing all the parenting when it seems that H is on some type of soul vacation, but it really is H's loss. Even the mundane and tough parts of parenting are missed when they leave home as adults. When I start to get frustrated at my H - I realize that I would not trade places with him for anything. Honestly, as bad as this is, and as much as it hurts sometimes, I'm not blowing up my family and acting like an alien has possessed me. That's not to sound judgmental, I do have compassion for the guy, but I would not want to be living his life right now. He's a mess and it sounds like yours is, too.




I have to be fair here - he is seeing Youngest a lot, and doing school pick up and drop off. When I let him into the house he would often - though not always - do some cleaning or laundry or change the kids' bed linen while he was here. The amount of housework he did was never an issue in our marriage at all. And I can't blame him for not being more present when I've decided not to let him into the house.

It's the mental load that gets to me, I think - the remembering of homework and letters for the teacher and making sure there's enough milk and the play dates are sorted and thank you letters sent - all that administration of running a house. Obviously he's not doing any of that at all, and it's all on me. That is the way it is when a marriage ends and the children are mainly resident with one parent, and to share it would involve close collaboration he is incapable of offering, so I need to accept it. I don't believe he's doing it on purpose or trying to punish me - and because I know he's an 'acts of service' man I know that even when things were very bad when he came to the house and cleaned up a little, he was trying to demonstrate something about his willingness to try to be a good father and perhaps even a husband. It just isn't enough. And the fact is, there's a lot on my shoulders at the moment and though I am seeing friends very often, I feel lonely for a proper partner.

I know I felt lonely for a proper partner when he lived here though. So none of this gives me the urge to invite him back!!

I wouldn't really want to be living his life now either. He is still on vacation from work and is very isolated. Other than his computer games, and sometimes a bit of sport, I don't really have any idea how he spends his time. He seems a little healthier looking in the past month or so, which is good, but I am guessing (I have no idea - but given my last interaction with him I have my suspicions) that he is still drinking daily. Unless something has changed drastically in the last few months he has very few friends, nobody close, and isn't close to his family. I have no idea if he's content with the life he's choosing right now, but I know I wouldn't be in his shoes. I also know that his inability to cope with normal family life and the normal 'demands' of interacting with a fellow human being, not least the mother of his children - has nothing at all to do with me.

I've really struggled this past seven months with feeling like I am in 'limbo' - not a wife, not a single woman, and not working on either getting divorced or making a repair. I don't feel like that any more. I think what has changed is that I am not 'waiting' for him to do or say anything any more. I am very clear that what is on offer isn't enough. That more of the same isn't what I want. That I can say no and be fine. I do have such a strong sense that I can take care of myself and move forward when I am ready and that I will be okay. I didn't have that before. I felt trapped and miserable in my awful marriage and when he left, I felt trapped and miserable in a limbo I felt he was inflicting on me. Now I feel much freer. NO matter what happens I will never be in that marriage again. And it is in my power to proceed on a divorce if and when the time is right with me.

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That sounds like a great place to be Alison. Someone wrote on here the other day that their marriage was in limbo but their life wasn't, and that sounds like where you are perhaps?

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Well, a little bit. Though the marriage isn't in limbo either. As far as I'm concerned, it's dead and done except for the paperwork. Which I will get to when I am ready to do it.

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What a great response Alison. With the right attitude the world can be your Oyster. There will be sadness once in a while but you are a well rounded understanding person who has a lot to offer to the world. Make us proud, you can do it , just make sure you update so you can shine a light

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Yeah girl!

I believe in validation, but not of bad behavior!

You are doing great!

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Alison,

re: paperwork. Has either of you filed? I'm sorry I don't remember from your sitch.

I had to spend some time grieving the old MR. My IC told me it was dead. I didn't want to hear it at the time, but when I spent time there and well and truly accepted it, I was able to look ahead and start to figure out what I wanted. When I was honest, I realized that I didn't want the old MR back.

That is a huge step and I believe it's in the right direction. Like so many say here, we might/might not want a R with them again, but not where they are now. I like your confidence.

I'm wishing you all the joy and peace right now. hugs


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You sound pretty determined Alison, like you have literally shut the door on your H

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No, neither of us has filed. If I know H as I think I do, he'll bury his head in the sand and do nothing unless I file myself first. We did make an agreement on how to handle finances that I was happy with, but it's a handshake gentleman's agreement, nothing legal - and I am not sure how I feel yet about having to trust he wlll meet those responsibilities. If he doesn't, then I will need to either tolerate that type of cake-eating, or file myself, and I'm not there yet. I know I am determined, but underneath the determination I am deeply hurt and I want to work on that and resolve it or come through it first, so I am not making legal decisions with anything other than a rational head. I don't feel rushed. The emotional bond Is broken, I think. It's sad and I need to grieve it, but it is also freeing.

I guess I'm just very very disappointed. I did believe, even though I tried not to, that what he said about prioritising us and the marriage repair once May was over was what he'd do. And of course that hasn't happened - I still think he wants to be able to do it, but he can't. And I think the best thing I can do is get out the way so he can realise on his own that the fact that he can't is to do with him and not me. He can have that realisation or not, he can respond to realising it - if he does - in whatever way he chooses. But none of that is to do with me. I suspect arguing with me distracts him from what's really going on with him, so in a way the kindest and most loving thing I can do is get out the way and let him have his fight with himself.

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Originally Posted by AlisonUK
underneath the determination I am deeply hurt and I want to work on that and resolve it or come through it first, so I am not making legal decisions with anything other than a rational head.


As long as he is keeping up his end of the bargain, I think this is very wise. And of COURSE you are deeply hurt. I don't think detaching/GAL & 180 means you don't hurt, I just think it means what you do with the hurt matters.

Originally Posted by AlisonUK
I think the best thing I can do is get out the way so he can realise on his own that the fact that he can't is to do with him and not me. He can have that realisation or not, he can respond to realising it - if he does - in whatever way he chooses. But none of that is to do with me. I suspect arguing with me distracts him from what's really going on with him, so in a way the kindest and most loving thing I can do is get out the way and let him have his fight with himself.


In my opinion, this is what standing for your marriage means. It isn't waiting, it is allowing them to go through their stuff. You may/may not be willing to R when H comes through, but no matter what, you are growing.

Detachment is hard, and I can't say that I do it perfectly. I still love my H to pieces, but in letting him go and watching this go down, I've learned that the best way I can love him is from a distance. Like a lighthouse. (have you read that one? I don't know how to link, but I refer back to it quite a bit)

Stay strong and take care of yourself.


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Just journalling.

It was Youngest's birthday weekend this weekend and I saw a fair bit of H. We had a children's party and he was around and helpful during that - very friendly and sharing the work of setting up, entertaining and cleaning up. I'm glad he was in good form - Youngest had a really nice time and I'm grateful at the very least we can still give him that.

We did family presents this morning, and H was here for that too. I worried that I'd feel sad or regretful about our situation, and like it was all a bit fake, but actually it was fine. Fun, even. Eldest and H even got on and shared a joke or two, and I was grateful for that too - that there was a nice bit of time all together.

I found it very easy not to have any expectations. There was no R talk or even the sniff of it. I felt relaxed, and ready for him to leave when he did.

I hope we're able to do that again when the kids need it: they're more important than either of us in this situation, and the fact H was able to put his own moods and criticisms to one side and show his happy side for his children - whatever the truth of his feelings or thoughts were on the day - made me respect him a little more. I have no hopes that he's capable of being a good husband, but I was grateful to see he could be a good father for this weekend.

He was also polite to me - and thanked me for the work and effort I'd put into the party and the part I'd played in making it go well. This is new. We usually have H's family around on birthday weekends but I'd said no to that about a month ago. He didn't like it and was pretty rude about it at the time, but had since made arrangements of his own for Youngest and his family - which is more appropriate - and there was no reference or complaint about it this weekend. I'm glad about that.

I have a busy week ahead - work mainly, and some meetings with friends to keep up the GAL. The kids have about three weeks of school left before they break up for summer so I want to get on top of all my admin and tax stuff while i have the chance.

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Alison,

This is great to read. Something has changed in your updates recently -- it seems you are starting to create some space from him, setting firmer some boundaries for yourself, and thus you are detaching a bit. Consequently, It seems that he is noticing and treating you with more respect. I am also sensing that you are feeling better and more confident overall. ... I totally agree that both parents have to put their drama aside and put the kids needs first. As long as it is for the kids benefit only, then family time is not necessarily cake eating for him. Sounds like you both are able to do that. Bravo! ... Keep on this path and you will continue to see these positive results ...

Blu


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Alison,

I am really impressed that you are able to put the kids first in this situation. My W and I aren't separated, but I think if she does, there is no way I could talk to her friendly again. I would be too hurt. I am sure that over time this pain would dissipate.


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Yes - I was a bit worried about cake-eating. But where he is living he can't put on his own children's party for Youngest, and Youngest wanted him there, and to be honest it suited me to have an extra pair of hands on the day. I expected no more than civility and he was able to provide that - and more - and that was plenty. I also didn't wait on him or flap around him as I had been doing - my focus was on the kids and his was too, and that was fine.

I am not sure how I have decided I will handle other events with the children going forward. I need to balance what is best for them with what H can provide and what kind of interactions I want to have with him. But this felt positive and like a good line in the sand had been drawn.

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Destroyed - well, we were polite to each other. It was a really busy afternoon and we were generally not interacting with each other, but the kids - I was in the kitchen, he was in the garden, or we swapped over. He helped me with clean up at the end and we had a brief, 2 minute exchange and that was it. I felt relaxed and it was fine, but it was friendly rather than friendship, if that makes sense.

The next morning, with presents, it was only an hour or so, and I made coffee and then we focused entirely on Youngest. We gave all the presents together, and I think next year we will move towards each just getting our own present for the kids' birthdays, but it isn't really a hill I felt I needed to die on right now.

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It sounds like the party went really well and you handled things perfectly, thanks mostly to the boundary you put in over his family. It sounded like you had no or negative expectations of your H and they were exceeded, which is a good place to be in! You seem to be confident right now, I hope it continues smile

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I am so glad that this felt positive for you. It sounds like the day went better than could be expected, and I agree that is due to the work you have put in.


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Journalling - though not really that much to update!

I continue to feel pretty steady most of the time, with little bursts of anger and deep sadness that I try to take care of, but don't act on. I suppose this is grief, and I am going through it, and most days feel a bit easier than the last. The dark panic and flailing of the early part of this year has gone. I am so much stronger now. The urge to placate him at all costs has gone too. I suppose the sadness is looking at him and realising that no matter how much I wish it were not so, he's not capable of being the husband I deserve right now and that my job is only to accept that. It is coming much easier than it did.

H has started therapy - he told me a couple of days ago. I didn't respond a great deal at the time other than to wish him well with it, but my feeling is that I hope he takes it seriously and that it is of benefit to him, but I don't want to hear much about it. It needs to be something he does for himself, not for me and not even for his kids. He's on his own journey and I don't really want to interfere with that. He's been respectful and friendly and so have I, but there's a definite distance and boundary there and he is respecting that.

He's back at work next week and we need to sort out something predictable and regular for childcare - he's been off these past three weeks so he's been doing more in the way of school runs, which has been good for Youngest and helpful to me. But I'd prefer a regular schedule that suits us both and cuts down on the amount of time he's at my door to collect or drop off. I will text him a few different options over the weekend and ask him to pick which suits him best.

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Big giant hugs, Alison. I'm so glad to log on and read a good update from you!!!

I love how you aren't getting involved in his IC stuff. My H would tell me about his and it just frustrated me and made me want to get involved and tell him why he wasn't getting better!!

I found it helpful to read articles about grief. Sometimes knowing what we are going through emotionally better equips us to navigate/manage it.

I'm glad to read that you no longer want to placate him!!! Cross off the C in CAGD!!

I'm finding myself thinking about you, Dilly, Blu, Goddess and all our friends here and taking comfort and encouragement knowing we are all walking through this together. I also use our group here to check myself when I want to do a counter-DB action. lol. Accountability is a good thing!!

All my best to you. Stay strong <3


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Originally Posted by 97Hope


I'm glad to read that you no longer want to placate him!!! Cross off the C in CAGD!!


I love it!

I don't know if a switch has flicked in my head, or I am just on the cusp of a giant backslide, but I do feel different these days. Still sad and still lonely sometimes. Still angry sometimes. But all of that is my stuff to deal with and nothing to do with him. And his stuff - whatever it is - isn't really my problem and doesn't feel that way either. I'm grateful he's being involved and reliable with the kids. I've seen him make more effort with Eldest. I think his time off has done him a lot of good, and the brief times I've seen him he looks healthier and better rested. I worry less about him - and feel less responsible for him. He seems happier than he was and I'm glad about that.

Haven't texted him those childcare options yet. Need to get my diary out and have a think about what options feel equitable to me and suit my practical needs best. Youngest needs regular contact with him and that is of course paramount. I think I might send him three different options, all acceptable to me, and let him choose the one that suits him best. Better DB would be to let him come to me and ask for something, but I suspect an 'ad hoc' thing would suit him better - he doesn't like planning - but me and the kids need some predictable routine.

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Originally Posted by AlisonUK


I continue to feel pretty steady most of the time, with little bursts of anger and deep sadness that I try to take care of, but don't act on. I suppose this is grief, and I am going through it, and most days feel a bit easier than the last. The dark panic and flailing of the early part of this year has gone. I am so much stronger now. The urge to placate him at all costs has gone too. I suppose the sadness is looking at him and realising that no matter how much I wish it were not so, he's not capable of being the husband I deserve right now and that my job is only to accept that. It is coming much easier than it did.



Alison, this is huge. I want you to reread this when you doubt yourself or feel stuck. ... We all have a different timeline on this journey. Some of us take years to even accept the M is over and some of us turn our cheek and file for D the day after BD, and then everyone else lies somewhere in between. But for all of us, we do eventually make progress and go on with our life. Grief is an important part of that process. Our WAS often go running out the door and deny themselves the necessary steps. Even us, the LBS, can prolong allowing in the grief. We can be afraid of letting in grief because that translates to accepting it's over. The reality is, it was already over. As we all say here, the M as we knew it is dead and gone. We can fight it, cling to it, and wait, but we cannot revive it....

Our fear of the unknown holds us back. I think when we allow grief in, it is not as bad as we thought it would be. Actually starting the grief process makes us stronger and ultimately builds resilience, grit and character. As we allow the intense sadness in, we also learn to soothe ourselves in ways we never knew possible. We realize how alone we truly are, but that it is not a bad thing. We can trust and rely on ourselves to be there. We do have what it takes to make it through a terrible time and we will survive. We love our self more because we know we will always pull through when others cannot. I know this all sounds so cliche, but I really believe in this! I am proof of this. I think this self love and self discovery is the silver lining in this mess for us all! When we do the hard work, we come out on the other side and we like ourselves more, with or without our M.

I see that you are on your way. I am glad to read this and your friends as they begin to join you. We all fall off the wagon at times, but we can all get back up. It is so, so hard, but worth the struggle. And as you continue on your journey, you can continue to help others along the way.

Blu


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Thanks Blu. I think all the contact I was having with my H was stopping me from feeling this grief - which is not overwhelming these days. I was living my life in two or three day increments, never really thinking beyond the next time I'd see him or have contact with him. I don't feel that way any more. I may do again, but for the time being I am enjoying the headspace.

We managed to resolve the childcare routine very quickly and amicably. I went out with family yesterday, and I think either ate something undercooked or got a bit too much sun, because this morning and afternoon I've been feeling really unwell - dizzy and nauseous and feverish. Youngest was with H and Eldest was out socialising (which is really great!) but when H dropped Youngest back he could see I was sick, and offered to take the dog out on a walk, and came back with some lucozade for me. We even shared a bit of a joke about me being hungover (I don't drink at all) and it was friendly and even a little affectionate. I don't read anything into it except that perhaps the space has calmed down tensions and expectations for both of us. I appreciated his kindness and that was enough. I hope we're able to carry on co-parenting in this positive way, with support and gentleness towards each other, but we'll see.

I'm feeling a bit better now but will be feeding everyone something quick out of the freezer tonight and getting in bed early.

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I do hope you feel better soon.

From where I sit, It definitely looks like you've turned a corner.

Don't doubt your strength now. I'm cheering for you over here!! You are helping others by sharing what you've learned and asking difficult questions. You are honest with your feelings and growth and that is amazing. Time to take care of yourself, my friend.

P.S. Feed those babies donuts if you have to. No mom-guilt allowed. When we aren't feeling well, we need to be gentle with ourselves. : )


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I hope you feel better today Alison. TBH I would have let my kids forage for their own dinner under those circumstances! That sounds like a positive interaction and like your head is in a good place, long may it continue x

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I do feel much better. Don't know what it was - just one of those things, I suppose. I drank lots of water and slept in the afternoon and had a long sleep last night and feel totally normal today. Youngest was saying she was a bit under the weather, but I suspect she was just feeling a bit Monday-morning ish and wanted the day off school (she ate well and her temperature and colour was fine) so I took her in anyway!

Today I am catching up on work, taking the dog to the vet, seeing some friends this evening and planning a shopping trip with Eldest. All his clothes are suddenly - in the course of the last fortnight - too small. We both need a few extra things for going on holiday. I hope we can drive to the city and make a day of it this weekend.

H is back at work today, first day in his new job. I texted him 'good luck from us' in the morning, which is probably bad DBing but I think he was anxious, and he was kind to me yesterday when he was ill, and I wanted to show friendship. Me basically treating him like an unwelcome stranger and being very cold is not sustainable for healthy coparenting, though I don't want to let my guard down either. I think I've got 'walls three feet thick and cold as ice' sort of detachment nearly perfected, but 'loving detachment' is a bit harder to find. I want to try to treat him like a friendly distant relative who I wish well, but don't particularly want to get closer to. We'll see.

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Doing good Alison , not much to add but I think the good luck was fine , the from us toned it down anyway I think

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A sad day today. H is taking Eldest and Youngest to see his parents this weekend. It's so they can give Youngest his birthday presents, and also celebrate my FILs birthday. It brings back memories of when I first had her, and we went to FIL's birthday garden party to show off the baby and celebrate his birthday just a day or two after I got out of the hospital. It was a happy time. I'm not close to my own parents - for many very good reasons (they were abusive and I spent part of my childhood in care) and over the years as they learned more about me and my own background I felt them stepping into that parental role. I can't say we were ever really super close, but they included me in things for their own children, and that meant a lot to me. I think I imagined that in the event of problems in our marriage, they'd want to reach out the hand of support to both of us - without judging - but that hasn't happened. I've had no contact from anyone at all for months - not to ask me how I am, not to ask how Eldest was in the weeks when H was refusing to see him - nothing. It makes me really sad.

I understand the logic of this of course. He's their son and I am not. He stayed with them for a couple of weeks while he was still very angry and hurt at being thrown out of the house, and I don't know this for sure, but I can imagine that he's told them a very slanted version of events in our marriage. I'd expect that. And he has a perfect right to speak to whoever he wants and say whatever he wants. He's much more isolated than I am - except for his family - so it is good he has their support. I would just have hoped that as mature and experienced people, and after knowing me for so many years, they'd have realised he was telling only one side of the story and that I might have had very very good reasons for being so desperate to have him out of the house. That of course they would want to support him and take care of him, but they'd also have it in their hearts to reach out to me and express some kind of concern or interest. That hasn't happened.

I don't really expect anything from the any more. It's been seven months. I have no idea what H has said or not said - that's just speculation on my part. But I do feel sad today that there's going to be a happy family event and I'm not included any more. I didn't expect to be, and of course it's much better that the kids have those continuing relationships and it's good he is taking it on himself to facilitate that. But I am sad.

I can't help but wondering if we do ever R - and I know that is increasingly unlikely and I am not even sure that is what I want any more - that things between me and the wider family will never be the same again. I won't be able to forget how disposable I was to them, and that is going to colour any interaction I have with them going forward.

Nothing for me to do. I guess I don't really need any advice because I know the right thing to do is to wave my kids off at the door, wish them a good day, then go and do something nice for myself in the free time. I've already arranged that. H isn't really doing anything wrong, and neither, really, are my in-laws. It's just sad.

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It must be very hard for you . The good news is that you have a sound grip on the realities of the situation. No fog for you Alison. Hope you enjoy your fun thingy . I do want to hear that you are doing something off the wall soon

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These are some of the hardest days to navigate.

The loss (or felt-loss) of my W's family is really hitting hard. In my case it is not total and complete loss, as my SIL and BIL are still adamant about me coming over and seeing my nephews (who I love very much), but the logistics of doing that while W is there every weekend (she is their aunt, basically 2nd mom) is unfeasible at the moment. (W will not look at or talk to me at all right now, which is difficult at best when the nephews start asking questions as to why this is the case).

It [censored] - I miss seeing them very much and it makes me sad, I totally get where you are coming from, Alison. No amount of GAL or 180s or PMA will change that.

On the other hand, I try to think of things this way. My W has withdrawn so much from who she was, away from everyone and everything, that I hardly recognize who she is anymore. She has no one else she feels comfortable talking to or spending time with other than her S and nephews right now.

I try to see it from her perspective - and remember that she needs them now, really. More than anything. For me to try and interrupt that processing or healing for her (if it happens) is selfish on my part, so I have taken the step of pulling back and letting her have that part of her life so she can hopefully regain her identity.

It is an extraordinarily hard thing to do, I can relate to your position and it is totally natural and ok to feel sad. But keep focusing on you, and try to think of the good things you have in your day to day life.

Stay strong smile

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Thanks both.

IronWill - that's a really useful way to reframe it. I don't have close ties with my family, but I do have some really good friends I can confide in and be truthful to - both about the way H has treated me, and my own shortcomings. I consider it so valuable to have people that I can be honest with about my own imperfections - to be vulnerable about my flaws - and feel support but not judgement or enabling. H isn't really close to his family - in that while I am speculating he's told them some unpleasant things about me (given their radio silence) I doubt he's confiding in them regularly or talking to them about his own feelings and thoughts. I could be wrong - but if he's the man I lived with - then there's nobody in his life who he had that type of relationship with.

In any case, he's really not done anything wrong at all. He's allowed to speak to anyone about his experience of being married to me and process it in whatever way he wishes. That might involve a lot of blame and ranting - I wouldn't be surprised - and painting himself as the victim. It might not. The fact is, I don't know. I'd actually be overcome with hope if I felt like he'd been capable of introducing some honest self-reflection in at least one of his relationships, to be honest - though I don't have any reason to presume that is the case.

The fact is also that while I'd hoped for an expression of care and support from them, that didn't happen and I am sad about it. It isn't wrong that I'm sad. Disappointed, I suppose - that fifteen years of knowing me and counting me (I thought) as part of their family didn't really count for much when it came down to it. I feel like the warmth I had from them in times past was fake and conditional, and anything that comes from them towards me in the future isn't anything I can trust or enjoy. I don't trust people very easily. I don't let people get close to me very easily at all. I'd hoped they counted me as family too and I see that while they might have acted that way in the past, it wasn't real. I might feel differently as time passes. But I have my own friends and connections and my life isn't devoid of people who know the best and worst of me and value my presence in their lives and that's what I am trying to hold on to today.

I guess I feel a bit judged. And again - I've no idea what - if anything - he's said to them. But their silence feels to me like a real judgement - a 'choosing of a side' and that feels unjust. I remember the first few weeks we were separated and I was crying myself to sleep every night, waking up and dragging myself in to work and through the things the kids needed, crying on and off all day, and barely functioning. I lost a lot of weight. I was really really struggling. If one of my PIL had sent me a text letting me know they were thinking of me, I think it would have made a tiny bit of difference to me. The fact that they didn't really hurts. And yes, I feel judged. If they knew the half of what he's said and done to me and the way he's treated Eldest I hope they'd understand why I didn't want to live with him anymore. I know airing the dirty laundry is the worst possible idea - no matter what outcome I want - and my role here is to act with a bit of dignity. But I do feel unfairly judged and that's hard today too.

I suppose I just have to accept the situation, and my own feelings about it, and do the healthy and kind thing with the situation as it presents. I will wish my kids well and encourage them to have a good day with their family. I will tell H to take all the time he needs and not to hurry them back on my account. I'll make sure I spend some time with people who love me while they're away.

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That sounds really rough, Alison. No part of these situations is ever easy, and coping with them is at times a herculean task.

You know your truth, you know whether the interactions between you and your in-laws was genuine. From what you've written it sounds like you had a good R with them, if it were me I would keep that history for myself as good memories and not rewrite it.

It may be that your in-laws are uncomfortable with the situation, it may be that they are empathizing with H but feel awkward contradicting him, or it may be that they simply do not know what to say or do. It could be any of a million possibilities. Its human nature to want to know, but maybe in this case it's better for you not to know.

Such a hard thing to do. Acceptance is not easy but continually struggling against the flow usually only leads to more pain. That's a hard lesson I've learned in my sit, anyway.

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Originally Posted by AlisonUK
in that while I am speculating he's told them some unpleasant things about me (given their radio silence) I doubt he's confiding in them regularly or talking to them about his own feelings and thoughts. I could be wrong - but if he's the man I lived with - then there's nobody in his life who he had that type of relationship with.

In any case, he's really not done anything wrong at all. He's allowed to speak to anyone about his experience of being married to me and process it in whatever way he wishes. That might involve a lot of blame and ranting - I wouldn't be surprised - and painting himself as the victim. It might not. The fact is, I don't know.

The fact is also that while I'd hoped for an expression of care and support from them, that didn't happen and I am sad about it. It isn't wrong that I'm sad. Disappointed, I suppose - that fifteen years of knowing me and counting me (I thought) as part of their family didn't really count for much when it came down to it. I feel like the warmth I had from them in times past was fake and conditional, and anything that comes from them towards me in the future isn't anything I can trust or enjoy. I don't trust people very easily. I don't let people get close to me very easily at all.

I guess I feel a bit judged. And again - I've no idea what - if anything - he's said to them. But their silence feels to me like a real judgement - a 'choosing of a side' and that feels unjust.

I do feel unfairly judged and that's hard today too.

I suppose I just have to accept the situation, and my own feelings about it[[quote][quote]


Aww, love. I'm so sorry about your pain. It's very hard with in-laws. I bolded some things you wrote to remind you that you are speculating and these are your feelings. You are absolutely 100 percent entitled to feel however you feel, remember at the same time you just don't know.

Since you find it hard to trust, are you falling back on old coping mechanisms? They aren't speaking to you - so you feel judged. I would guess that this has more to do with them not knowing what to say or if they should say anything at this point.

If you are right and they are judging you, remember that no good judge only hears one side. It can feel very unfair when people do that - because it is unfair.

I love how you are diving deep into what you feel and why you feel it. I'm not a counselor, just have been to many - my best therapist taught me to explore my thoughts around those feelings. Most of the time, even if the feeling didn't change, I had a better understanding and acceptance of those feelings because I could see the root cause.

Just remember - what other people think of you is none of your business. You are standing. It takes courage, more patience than we ever knew we had and more strength then we ever wanted to use. But here you are, continuously working toward a better life for you and your family. Stand confident in that today. Big hugs.


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Thanks IronWill and 97Hope. A bumpy day yesterday, but your posts and insights and suggestions and a session with my IC where we explored the old coping mechanisms and the childhood stuff about family rejection really helped. I feel a bit emotionally hung-over today - tired and vulnerable but okay.

I'm in two minds today. One is that I'm grateful, in a strange way, for all this triggering of old childhood stuff, because I was a very unhealthy and damaged adult, relying on my H to do my emotional functioning for me, and now I am forced to look at some very old stuff and seek some healing. I've never done that seriously before - never had to - and it is so painful and lonely that I know for sure I wouldn't have bothered if the sticking-plaster of a marriage and another person would have helped me avoid it. It is necessary work and I think I will come out the other end a more mature and healthy person.

The other part of me is really fed up that this old childhood stuff keeps surfacing. I am in my mid 30s and you'd think I could have left behind my unpleasant childhood experiences and toxic parenting behind by now. I have healthy children and a successful career. I can take care of myself and my kids financially, and I have good friends. So to have to go to therapy and have another cry over childhood rejections and the way more minor rejections in adulthood trigger that for me makes me feel stuck, and like I am making no progress.

I am trying to hold my two minds together today and just rest and wait it out.

I have a school thing this afternoon where I will be seeing H. It is appropriate we attend together for the benefit of Youngest. I am glad he wants to go and be involved - I know many WHs here aren't making that effort. We've had a few friendly interactions recently, and I doubt very much he'll be anything other than civil to me in public. But I also know he's extremely paranoid (or he was, the last time we spoke about it) as to what, if anything, I've told people about his behaviour. That paranoia makes him lash out unpleasantly. I'm taking my own car - not travelling with him - so I doubt there will be problems, but I do have concerns about what his attitude might be like.

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Originally Posted by AlisonUK


I'm in two minds today. One is that I'm grateful, in a strange way, for all this triggering of old childhood stuff, because I was a very unhealthy and damaged adult, relying on my H to do my emotional functioning for me, and now I am forced to look at some very old stuff and seek some healing. I've never done that seriously before - never had to - and it is so painful and lonely that I know for sure I wouldn't have bothered if the sticking-plaster of a marriage and another person would have helped me avoid it. It is necessary work and I think I will come out the other end a more mature and healthy person.


I am in very much the same boat as you, Alison.

I would caution you the same thing I caution myself - I realize that I have these issues, but I force myself not to be consumed by them. After all, they are a part of who you are, and without them you would not be the same person.

A lot of my searching has been existentialist or metaphysical, and some may consider it hogwash. But personally I think it is necessary to allow these emotions to play out, let them simmer for a minute or two, before realizing that you do not have to live within them forever. The emotion or the feeling is only a small part of who you are and exists for only a fraction of your day. It is not who you are entirely, and when the initial wave of it passes, you have the choice to accept that it happened, and continue on with your day.

Sounds easy, right? But it has taken me 46 years to figure this out lol!

Quote

The other part of me is really fed up that this old childhood stuff keeps surfacing. I am in my mid 30s and you'd think I could have left behind my unpleasant childhood experiences and toxic parenting behind by now. I have healthy children and a successful career. I can take care of myself and my kids financially, and I have good friends. So to have to go to therapy and have another cry over childhood rejections and the way more minor rejections in adulthood trigger that for me makes me feel stuck, and like I am making no progress.


I'm in my mid 40s, I've been processing for the past 30 years. Go ahead and have the cry. Feel what it is. It takes as long as it takes, there's no shame in that - that is what IC is for. smile

Standing isn't easy. But it is you who has the control. You have the choice of how far you want to go, how long you want to wait. Never forget that

Stay strong smile

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I read somewhere that the childhood stuff and previous trauma doesn't go away or lessen over the years, if you don't deal with it everything gets bigger and scarier and crashes over you. I think this has happened to our WASes and the walking away is not being able to cope with it and being too scared to address it. In your case Alison you are being brave enough to deal with it and heal from it, and yes it's tough but it'll be worth it. And there are days when you just don't want to face it and want to just get on with your life without this stuff to work through, that is only natural.

I'm sorry about how you're feeling about your inlaws. It seems like they genuinely did see you as part of the family and who only knows what they feel now. Probably pure awkwardness and confusion, I would think if they're decent people. And an unwillingness to get involved in any way. I hope you manage to look after yourself in a healthy way and get past the family time without you xx

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Alison,

I have been away from the boards and am just catching up. I am so sorry for all that you are going through. I can relate to your feelings of loss in regards to your in-laws. When all of this began for me it was one of the first things that came to mind as they have been part of my family for almost 28 years. In my mind I was hoping for a phone call from a SIL, but it didn't happen. I'm not even sure how much they know. My H just told his parents about a week ago, but I'm sure they spread the word. My MIL reached out to me, but no mention of our situation, just an invite to visit when I am in town later this month. Two of my SILs have contacted me, but just about day to day stuff, no mention of my H or separation.

I agree with IW, maybe they just feel uncomfortable. Maybe they just don't know what to say or do. It doesn't make it hurt any less though. Who knows what our spouses tell others, if anything at all. I have yet to tell my own sisters, but my parent know so I guess I'm hoping they will spread the word as it is too painful to say out loud at this point.

I understand your frustration with the repeated surfacing of your childhood stuff, but look how far you've come in life despite it all. You are building a life of stability for your children. Look at how strong you are. That's progress!

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I also am really hurt that my in-laws haven't reached out to me. Here I have been crying every day (W and in-laws don't know that), and they haven't even asked if I am alright. While I know that blood is thicker than water, it really hurts to think that people that have been such a big part of my life wouldn't reach out at all. I bet this is a very common experience.


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Thanks everyone. I can't say I am feeling great today, but your kind words and empathy and the understanding from people who have experienced or are experiencing the same thing is very comforting.

The school thing with H was okay. He was very friendly and seemed tense but focussed on Youngest, which was just as it should be. We sat together and had a little chit chat about Youngest's performance. He told me he was feeling very down at the moment, and I said I hoped he had a relaxing weekend as it had been a tough few months for him, and left it at that.

Today he came to pick up the kids. I had them ready and everyone was in good spirits. Youngest wanted to know why I wasn't going, and I said it was a party for FIL and him and it was a bit too long to leave the puppy on his own. H piped up and said, 'well, we could all go and take the puppy with us,' which I wasn't very happy about. Perhaps he meant that out of kindness and wanting to ease the conversation, and perhaps I should have been more honest and direct with Youngest in that moment, but I couldn't think of how to do it without sounding blaming (well, actually I'm not invited as your dad's family has been ignoring me for months,' is true and NOT the right thing to say) so I felt caught on the back foot. I don't suppose it was H's intention to make Youngest think I could have gone, but was choosing not to, but I hope Youngest forgets all about it and just has a nice time.

It's been hard - I can understand the fact that the ILs might feel awkward or confused, and I can also bear in mind I am bringing a lot of my own childhood stuff into this. But it's also true that when I've texted (just twice in six months) to say thank you for bringing the kids back, or thanks for a present they gave to Eldest, those texts haven't been responded to at all. I have no idea what they think of me, but I do know their family culture - one of my SILs had a long term partner who she sadly ended the relationship with. It was all fairly amicable and he was a good man who hadn't mistreated her. And within 5 hours of her telling her mother she'd split up with him, all photographs of him were removed from the family photograph wall and his name was never ever mentioned again. It's like he never existed. How they respond to this is up to them, and how I respond to that is up to me. I am determined to be friendly but that family culture has never sat right with me and I don't want to replicate it for my own children or to communicate to them that's the normal and right way to behave when family structures change.

I'm off out this afternoon anyway to see some friends. I will have a good time and not dwell on this.

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Well, a strange couple of days.

H has been in touch A LOT. Wanting to have R talks. I haven't shut him down, but I haven't really spoken much either. Just listened and said versions of 'this is a lot to process. I don't know what I think yet,' which also happens to be totally true. He's speaking differently - less about me and my faults, more about him and his shortcomings. He says it's coming from his therapy - but he can only have had 2-3 sessions unless he started much earlier than he said (which might be true).

He is dead set on wanting to R. Says it will take lots of time. Is apologetic. Isn't exactly begging but my ego doesn't need that. Only honesty from him.

I don't know where to go from here. I feel unbelievably sad. I just don't think I have it in me to trust him again. I know that people can change - I have, and will continue to do so - but the memories of how he's treated me are still very fresh. He said his actions needed to count more than his words. I appreciate him acknowledging that. I'm not really letting him near me so he's no opportunity to show me a change in his actions though.

I see him being involved and more loving and patient towards Youngest, and him making much more effort with Eldest. But I've seen that before, and he's been unable to sustain it. Also - he needs to be a good father whether or not he's married to me. A good father that I can learn to respect is not the same thing as a good husband I can feel safe and loving with.

I really didn't say much at all. But for the past couple of days I've been very depressed, weepy, unmotivated with my work and not wanting to see my friends. I'm not sure why. He was being very reasonable and calm and open and it seemed like it was my old husband there in front of me again. And at the same time, I just didn't believe a word of it. I know we talk about WHs being in a fog, and being stolen my aliens. I've come to wonder if the nice version of him was the fog, and the horrible version he became in the last couple of years was just his real self showing through, and all he is showing me now the mask again.

I don't have an arrangement to see him or speak to him again - I said I wanted space to think and process.He hasn't asked me to do or say anything. He says he is carrying on with therapy whatever happens, but the offer of MC is still on the table. I suspect some action needs to be taken by me - either to open the door a tiny crack or to shut this down for good. I really really resent having to make that decision just as I'd got myself onto even ground.

I am not sure I will ever be the same person again and we will never be able to go back and have the same marriage again. I am never again going to be innocent of what he is capable of. And I am not sure I can go forward knowing what I know about his character and his capabilities. He could of course say the same about me I suppose. And I know there are many on here who have forgiven PAs and regained trust. Forgiven all kinds of poor treatment, and come out with stronger marriages for it. I have no idea what the next best thing to do is.

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Alison - Give it time. I hear from your post a sense of feeling pressured. You do not need to be on your H's timeline.

He just started IC and might be feeling that initial thrill of making a lot of progress. I know from my own experience that IC has its ups and downs, and it is hard to stay consistent over the long-term. It's easy to say "I need to show you through actions". Great... those are still just words. Perhaps it will stick, perhaps it will not. If he really wants it to work, he will be patient and continue to make an effort. He will be okay with you needing time and space to sort things out.

You also mentioned that you haven't given him opportunities to show you progress through his actions, but then you spelled out exactly what he can do: Demonstrate first that he is a good father.

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Hey Alison - sorry to hear that you are struggling. This cannot have been easy for you, and I think you are more than allowed to have your fair share of emotions and feelings about what you are going through.

You are also allowed to take as much time as you need, I agree with U. This is a period of turmoil and upheaval and great change. If your H shows that he is committed to changing and stays in IC, that's great for him. But you are in charge here of if, how, or when you proceed.

Forgive yourself - that's one of the things I am also learning how to do. It's ok to feel these things. If he is truly serious about what he is doing, then he will give you the time and space to figure it out, and it will be his turn to wait.

Stay strong smile

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Thanks to both of you. I really appreciate it.

I don't know why I am so sad. He said all the right things and is giving me space and I do see him making changes in the way he interacts with our children. He acknowledged his part in things fully and he says he is committed to sorting that stuff out for himself no matter what I decide. They weren't long conversations and I didn't feel pressured or manipulated. You'd think I'd be ecstatic. Or angry. But I just feel so so so so sad. It was easier just to shut him out, go dark and move forward as well as I could when he was behaving like an utter (to borrow a phrase from our friend 97Hope) Dingle Hopper. Today and for the past couple of days I feel totally crushed by grief.

I'm just going to take it easy for the rest of the week. Nothing day to day needs to change and I'm not in a state to make any kind of decision right now.

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Alison - I'm sure you are wishing he had made these changes a long time ago. But he didn't, and you had to start with your own healing process. Think about the lighthouse story - we start moving on, walking our own path, but shine the light back from time to time for our partner. It is really hard to do this -- to start healing emotionally, but also leave open the possibility of change. I think it is completely understandable when we see signs of change in our partner to have a whole range of complex emotions.

I think it's good to sit with your sadness. I am guessing with some time and space you will sort out your feelings.

If you were ecstatic, I would be more worried and would advise you proceed cautiously.

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Alison, I've only read bits and pieces of your story, but I see that he's been incredibly harsh towards you. It makes sense you're hesitant to re-consider a future with him when your future looks bright without him.

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Originally Posted by AlisonUK

I'm just going to take it easy for the rest of the week. Nothing day to day needs to change and I'm not in a state to make any kind of decision right now.


Having a really rough internal day too, I can relate. There's no sense to it - nothing happened, but I also feel very heavy weight today, all week really.

Sometimes, it's just like that.

Your plan sounds like an excellent plan.

Stay strong, Alison

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New Thread:

Moving forward 7

Last edited by job; 07/19/19 02:05 PM. Reason: added link to new thread

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The past is gone, the present is a gift and you need to focus on today, allow the future to reveal itself when it is ready.
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No new thread yet so I thought I'd add onto this one. I'm new to the forum so take this with a grain of salt. I don't know your whole story AlisonUK but I think your point is where many of us hope to be. Seems like at first we feel like we can change things or make a difference (we feel like the ball is in our court still but it isn't) but then we read the forums and realize the best thing to do is detach and focus on ourselves (we hopefully realize the ball is not in our court and let go along the way) and then something like your current situation crops up.

You hear the words that you wanted to hear a long time ago but then you don't know whether to trust them. (You feel like the ball is back in your court again and a part of you wants to jump on it and a part of you doesn't know if you want anything to do with H after all this and you've wasted your time waiting for something that you may not want anymore.) I think you need to relax and let things be for a little. Maybe crack the door slightly to see if actions follow his words and assess if the ball is really in your court or not. If you start to see the actions open yourself up a little more and you will probably get some clarity about what direction you want for the future. No need to make a huge decision on this right now or rush.

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