Hey Hope, thank you, that was really useful! Pushover or sledgehammer resonates with me too, neither is productive... I have IC today so I'm going to talk about some of this stuff. I think Alison and I are great at introspection and trying to understand the other person, but that way leads to mind-reading and keeps us stuck in a loop of thinking but not acting. I don't want to act impulsively but I've had enough of being stuck in thinking mode, it doesn't move me forward.
Loads of work to do today but I also have a run with my friend, an aerobics class, lunch with ds1 and IC. I better start early to fit in as much as I can!
dilly, just some observations: Imagine the impact it would have on him if you changed the locks again. Cancelled all future "appointments" with him. Went dark on him (meaning you didn't initiate ANY contact, and only responded to his direct questions with short, to the point answers, (yes or no questions getting yes or no answers). If the thought of this makes your pulse quicken, causes you to breath hard, and you break out in a sweat, then you are selliing yourself short. Dillydaf will survive and thrive with or without this flake (and yes he is acting like a total flake) in her life!
Steve: I suppose I just have a lot of problems believing that going dark will work. I went back and read your sitch from the start (man, you were messed up!) and you had no separation, you spent time together in the same house, you had sex pretty soon after BD, so many factors which meant you were closer to your W than I am to my H. I get the psychology of wanting what you can't have, I get that just going dark and moving on might prompt my H to realise what he risks losing (he even said that when he left, he said he 'risked' me finding someone else and moving on, then he corrected himself and said that risk was the wrong word, but it wasn't). But equally it might just signal to him that he was right to think that I would abandon him all along. Over the years we lost our connection, we ignored each other and treated each other poorly.
Since BD we have generally been nicer to each other. We text each other a couple of times a day and talk on the phone every few days, he asks about my work and knows what I'm doing with my time which might be him being controlling or might be him wanting to know more about me. We go out and have dinner and some fun activity once a week and usually enjoy ourselves. Most weekends we go for a long walk and have lunch or dinner with the kids. Maybe that's cake eating, but for the most part he is nice to me and respectful (apart from the cat spraying incident last weekend). He doesn't seem to be having an A, but he is clearly hiding part of himself by burying himself in work, in wine, in socialising with colleagues and with his flat which is his fortress. When he feels criticised he starts talking about D, when he feels pressure (even if its his own perception not me pressuring) he talks about D, yet he's taken no action that I know of. I have been GAL, I work hard, see friends, have been doing new things and meeting new people, keeping the house much better than I ever did before, and I am thinking about what my future will look like whether or not he's in it.
Obviously the separation isn't sustainable in the long term, but I would be ok with a gradual reconnection. In fact, if he said he was coming back tomorrow I would refuse, I really would. But going dark and playing hard to get seems so risky, it seems quite juvenile, and it might seem to him that I was abandoning him and distancing like I did for a lot of our M. I don't think it would give him a sudden epiphany, but maybe I'm completely wrong. But then again I don't really understand what's going on in his head that he would feel like I'm his friend but he doesn't want to touch me or share a bed with me or want to spend more than a few hours a week with me. It's like he sees me as an enemy not a friend, or a stranger not his W.
So given I don't understand what he's thinking, maybe going dark would work, but it feels like it would be putting my M on the line on the basis of advice from people who don't have any evidence other than anecdotes. I know full well there are no guarantees, that H might choose to walk away for good no matter what I do and that I have zero control over him, only myself. But going dark, it just feels like a huge risk with no evidence. I sometimes feel like DBing is talked about a bit like religion: trust the process, follow the rules, have faith. But I'm an atheist and a believer in scientific evidence: what has been shown to work? What are the things most likely to rebuild connection between people? There is a lot of sense in DBing: understanding that you only have control over yourself, validating your S, making yourself a better person, not pursuing. But then there is contradictory advice in there too I think, and I don't understand how you can reconnect with your spouse if you're going dark on them.
I share a lot of your perspective, Dilly. I guess 'going dark' could be a manipulative move 'if you're not going to come back, then you don't get to see me at all! ha!!' but it is also a way of making room to focus entirely on yourself and protect yourself from someone else's poor behaviour, and to let yourself fully accept that the marriage is dead and you're on your own now. I know if I'd have done it earlier, it would have been about manipulation. Perhaps I could have faked it until detachment happened, but I don't think I'm so strong willed as that. Now I feel differently. I have the door open, at the moment, to hear what H has to say. If it's no good, I want to close the door not to make him suffer or to come back to me or for anything to do with him at all, but because I am sick to the back teeth of the uncertainty, and thinking about it, and having to deal with how he acts sometimes. I think going dark has to be about yourself, not about rescuing a relationship. Once I go dark, I'm out.
yeah those are some of my main concerns too Alison
Well so much for my IC plans. I went for a run with a friend and she fainted and there was a big fuss and I ended up only just making it to IC after sorting her out. Then I had a total meltdown with him because her H came home to look after her and I thought that I don't have anyone who finds me special enough to look after so I ended up sobbing about that for quite a long time. The truth of being alone just keeps hitting you doesn't it? Then I had to unburden myself over my other friend's devastating secret so had a little cry about that too. And then I went round in circles saying I was really struggling with the uncertainty of everything right now.
So yeah, not the best morning! I had a nice lunch with my son though, and now I'm finally getting down to some work. Tough focusing lately but today has been a doozy.
dilly, just some observations: Imagine the impact it would have on him if you changed the locks again. Cancelled all future "appointments" with him. Went dark on him (meaning you didn't initiate ANY contact, and only responded to his direct questions with short, to the point answers, (yes or no questions getting yes or no answers). If the thought of this makes your pulse quicken, causes you to breath hard, and you break out in a sweat, then you are selliing yourself short. Dillydaf will survive and thrive with or without this flake (and yes he is acting like a total flake) in her life!
Steve: I suppose I just have a lot of problems believing that going dark will work. I went back and read your sitch from the start (man, you were messed up!) and you had no separation, you spent time together in the same house, you had sex pretty soon after BD, so many factors which meant you were closer to your W than I am to my H. I get the psychology of wanting what you can't have, I get that just going dark and moving on might prompt my H to realise what he risks losing (he even said that when he left, he said he 'risked' me finding someone else and moving on, then he corrected himself and said that risk was the wrong word, but it wasn't). But equally it might just signal to him that he was right to think that I would abandon him all along. Over the years we lost our connection, we ignored each other and treated each other poorly.
Since BD we have generally been nicer to each other. We text each other a couple of times a day and talk on the phone every few days, he asks about my work and knows what I'm doing with my time which might be him being controlling or might be him wanting to know more about me. We go out and have dinner and some fun activity once a week and usually enjoy ourselves. Most weekends we go for a long walk and have lunch or dinner with the kids. Maybe that's cake eating, but for the most part he is nice to me and respectful (apart from the cat spraying incident last weekend). He doesn't seem to be having an A, but he is clearly hiding part of himself by burying himself in work, in wine, in socialising with colleagues and with his flat which is his fortress. When he feels criticised he starts talking about D, when he feels pressure (even if its his own perception not me pressuring) he talks about D, yet he's taken no action that I know of. I have been GAL, I work hard, see friends, have been doing new things and meeting new people, keeping the house much better than I ever did before, and I am thinking about what my future will look like whether or not he's in it.
Obviously the separation isn't sustainable in the long term, but I would be ok with a gradual reconnection. In fact, if he said he was coming back tomorrow I would refuse, I really would. But going dark and playing hard to get seems so risky, it seems quite juvenile, and it might seem to him that I was abandoning him and distancing like I did for a lot of our M. I don't think it would give him a sudden epiphany, but maybe I'm completely wrong. But then again I don't really understand what's going on in his head that he would feel like I'm his friend but he doesn't want to touch me or share a bed with me or want to spend more than a few hours a week with me. It's like he sees me as an enemy not a friend, or a stranger not his W.
So given I don't understand what he's thinking, maybe going dark would work, but it feels like it would be putting my M on the line on the basis of advice from people who don't have any evidence other than anecdotes. I know full well there are no guarantees, that H might choose to walk away for good no matter what I do and that I have zero control over him, only myself. But going dark, it just feels like a huge risk with no evidence. I sometimes feel like DBing is talked about a bit like religion: trust the process, follow the rules, have faith. But I'm an atheist and a believer in scientific evidence: what has been shown to work? What are the things most likely to rebuild connection between people? There is a lot of sense in DBing: understanding that you only have control over yourself, validating your S, making yourself a better person, not pursuing. But then there is contradictory advice in there too I think, and I don't understand how you can reconnect with your spouse if you're going dark on them.
Dilly, you are right. I was messed up. But when I did things well from a DB standpoint, that was when progress was made. Even in our MC, it was more IC for Steve85 with W there. It wasn't until she was ready to recommit back to the marriage that the MC switched to true MC.
Having said all of that, every sitch is different. Personally, I would be extremely frustrated and impatient with having a friendship only with my W. What you describe above in paragraph three terrifies me. I couldn't do it. Alison said that if she goes dark, she's out. For me it would be her moving out and trying to be exactly what you describe in paragraph 3. So understand that is where my advice about going dark came from.
I am a firm believer in not doing the same thing over and over again HOPING the other person changes eventually. And maybe that is because now that I am 50, wasting much more than a couple of weeks terrifies me. I know there are no guarantees, but I have 20 years, 30-40 if I am lucky, left. I also have the perspective of, before being with my W, being in a friendship with an ex-gf where I put up with a similar arrangement to your paragraph 3....for years.....in a hope that she'd eventually give me another shot. It never came. And when I think of all the time I wasted, all of the girls I never gave a chance because I was clinging to a dream that was never going to come to fruition, it is something I will never tolerate in my life again for very long.
The LRT (some call it going dark), seems like a perfect fit for your sitch. Your H IS cake-eating. He is stringing you along. And you seem to give him exactly what he wants right when he wants it, to make sure he has you on a string. My suggestion is to cut that string.
I eventually cut the string in the situation above I mentioned. I knew it had two potential outcomes. Either she'd choose to be with me. Or she'd choose not to be with me. However, I cut the string because both of those were still better than her choosing to continue to string me along.
dilly, I see you being paralyzed.....by fear. Your greatest fear is to lose him. But the problem is you've already lost him. So you can set that fear aside. Now you want to get him back. Most of us here come here because that is our desire. But the problem you have to see is that your current course of action isn't really getting you any closer to that. Further, it continues to prolong your pain and anxiety.
The LRT does two things. It sends a strong message to your WAS saying "I'm fed up and I am not going to take it anymore." And it let's you have some time and space to get him out of your head and realize that there is a great big world out there that doesn't include your WAS, and that you will be just AOK with or without him.
Most LBSs are afraid to DB. Whether it is GAL and detaching, or LRT (going dark). But then most are not successful in saving their MR.
And the point about your being an atheist and looking to scientific evidence (not sure how those two go together but that is neither here nor there) is fine. However, you aren't dealing with science here. You are dealing with flakiness of the walkaway mindset. The minute you try to apply logic and reason to a WAS is the minute you come away with your head spinning in complete confusion. There is no such thing with a WAS.
"When he wants you back, you will know. When he doesn't, you will be confused."
Last edited by Steve85; 06/13/1903:01 PM.
M(53), W(54),D(19) M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017 Ring and Piecing since March 2018
P.S. Sometimes it isn't until the LBS has moved on completely, that the WAS finally comes to their senses. Unfortunately, often it is too late and the LBS is not open to Ring any longer at that point. Kind of shows you the power in that. LRT simulates that. Though be careful that you don't do this to manipulate your WAS back. WAS have a sixth sense for that kind of things.
M(53), W(54),D(19) M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017 Ring and Piecing since March 2018
yeah those are some of my main concerns too Alison
Well so much for my IC plans. I went for a run with a friend and she fainted and there was a big fuss and I ended up only just making it to IC after sorting her out. Then I had a total meltdown with him because her H came home to look after her and I thought that I don't have anyone who finds me special enough to look after so I ended up sobbing about that for quite a long time. The truth of being alone just keeps hitting you doesn't it? Then I had to unburden myself over my other friend's devastating secret so had a little cry about that too. And then I went round in circles saying I was really struggling with the uncertainty of everything right now.
So yeah, not the best morning! I had a nice lunch with my son though, and now I'm finally getting down to some work. Tough focusing lately but today has been a doozy.
Awww really sorry Dilly! But sometimes crying and venting can be therapeutic so maybe you'll feel better now! If things don't work out with H there's someone else out there for you, probably someone better. So try to keep that in mind, the loneliness is temporary. After BD I had a lot of those thoughts too, could not imagine taking care of myself when sick because W always did. But I've been sick plenty of times since D and have managed just fine. A lot of the things we fear end up not being a big deal after all. I'm alone a lot but I'm hardly ever lonely because I keep myself quite busy. You'll get there too!
I think sometimes you have to really let yourself properly feel the reality of the situation - without any making excuses or applying compassion and understanding - just really feeling it, as horrible as it is, before you can process it, accept it and then take appropriate action.
Dilly - I am sure you do have people in your life who find you special enough to look after. And it is a sad fact that for reasons to do with him, and not to do with you, your husband isn't one of them. He does not want to care for you, look after you, be close to you or even be truthful with you. It's a very very hard fact to accept because it hurts like nothing else.
I think sometimes you have to really let yourself properly feel the reality of the situation - without any making excuses or applying compassion and understanding - just really feeling it, as horrible as it is, before you can process it, accept it and then take appropriate action.
Dilly - I am sure you do have people in your life who find you special enough to look after. And it is a sad fact that for reasons to do with him, and not to do with you, your husband isn't one of them. He does not want to care for you, look after you, be close to you or even be truthful with you. It's a very very hard fact to accept because it hurts like nothing else.
The bright side is that she knows this going into a potential injury or illness, and can make other arrangements. Some people do not find out that their spouse doesn't find them special enough to care for them until the chips are down.
Took my family to see "A Dog's Journey" a couple of weeks ago, and there was a scene along those lines in the film.
M(53), W(54),D(19) M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017 Ring and Piecing since March 2018
Actually I was reading about research the other day where Hs were more likely to leave their Ws after a cancer diagnosis than Ws to leave Hs, and it's dramatically likely to increase the D rate apparently. What a crappy thing to do.
Thank you all for your thoughts. I feel very fragile today for so many reasons. And I also feel very, very sad. But I appreciate your input.
