Yes, the theory is just a guideline and the reality is more complex. And it's a dynamic between people rather than a set of rules. That's interesting about you being anxious when in the same room as him, can you tell me more about that? Were you like that before the separation too or is that since then? No wonder you feel a sense of relief when he's not around...
Yes, I was like that before the separation - for a couple of years, but not always. I'd either be trying to avoid his criticism / sulking / nasty remarks by making sure the house was the way he liked it, that the kids behaved the way he wanted them to, or I would be kind of expecting the criticism and in a bad and irritable mood, primed to get it. Sometimes I'd behave like a sulky child and just refuse to do even the basics because what would be the point when I'm just going to get moaned at anyway? That's on me - of course.
When he was around recently (the lamb and lipstick day) I was hovering about like a fly wiping up crumbs and making sure the curtains were closed the way he likes them closed, etc etc, and it was horrible but I was doing it anyway. I'm not a terrible parent or a terrible housekeeper, but he seems to believe that when I do things differently to him, it's an insult to him. It was impossible to live with.
Towards the end it really escalated to the point where he was kicking things around Youngest's bedroom because it wasn't tidy enough, and I was following him about telling him his behaviour was totally unacceptable, and he was shouting that Youngest wouldn't be so untidy if I was a better parent. It was awful. When I've seen him during the separation and things have been more relaxed (rarely) I think it's because he knows he can go back to his little room where he's in complete control, so can tolerate not being pacified for a couple of hours. (Mind reading on my part - but I think it's fair to say that he can't cope or isn't happy in a normal chaotic family environment and isn't willing to look inwards to see why that might be and resolve that). There's been no real change in him, nor admission that his stress and anxiety was making him behave in controlling ways, just a fairly persistent belief than the outside world needs to adjust to make sure he feels okay.
But even earlier in our relationship when things weren't in this terrible dynamic, I would get anxious about what I interpreted as his distancing behaviours. I would share something with him - perhaps tell him that I loved him, or share a problem or even just tell him something that had happened about my day, and he'd be very taciturn in his response. He'd say 'okay' or something like that. Not all the time, but very often. I work in the arts and he's never once looked at any of my work - which is meant for the public - ever. He says it's because he doesn't understand it, but I've always felt he's just uninterested in the thing that's very important to me. He'd like to wear his headphones and listen to music when we were driving somewhere together. He'd be reluctant to commit to planning a future - even to the point of letting me know when I would next see him (he still doesn't like to commit to regular times for anything, which is difficult when it comes to contact with children and GAL for me) and he is very evasive when asked direct questions about what he wants - about anything at all, from big life stuff, to what he'd like to eat for tea. I always interpreted these things as him pushing me away, and rather than just pulling back myself, which would have been the healthier thing to do, I'd tend to cling - which entrenched the dynamic. It wasn't awful earlier than the last couple of years, but there was this undercurrent of me never really feeling desired or wanted. It was a deep sadness to me. But I can learn not to take that personally - he doesn't really seem to desire or want anything, or at least, has massive trouble expressing that in a way that makes sense to me. I think deep down he's a very fearful, anxious and possibly quite empty person.
Yes, I was like that before the separation - for a couple of years, but not always. I'd either be trying to avoid his criticism / sulking / nasty remarks by making sure the house was the way he liked it, that the kids behaved the way he wanted them to, or I would be kind of expecting the criticism and in a bad and irritable mood, primed to get it. Sometimes I'd behave like a sulky child and just refuse to do even the basics because what would be the point when I'm just going to get moaned at anyway? That's on me - of course.
When he was around recently (the lamb and lipstick day) I was hovering about like a fly wiping up crumbs and making sure the curtains were closed the way he likes them closed, etc etc, and it was horrible but I was doing it anyway. I'm not a terrible parent or a terrible housekeeper, but he seems to believe that when I do things differently to him, it's an insult to him. It was impossible to live with.
Towards the end it really escalated to the point where he was kicking things around Youngest's bedroom because it wasn't tidy enough, and I was following him about telling him his behaviour was totally unacceptable, and he was shouting that Youngest wouldn't be so untidy if I was a better parent. It was awful. When I've seen him during the separation and things have been more relaxed (rarely) I think it's because he knows he can go back to his little room where he's in complete control, so can tolerate not being pacified for a couple of hours. (Mind reading on my part - but I think it's fair to say that he can't cope or isn't happy in a normal chaotic family environment and isn't willing to look inwards to see why that might be and resolve that). There's been no real change in him, nor admission that his stress and anxiety was making him behave in controlling ways, just a fairly persistent belief than the outside world needs to adjust to make sure he feels okay.
Oh wow, that sounds very familiar! My H also has this thing about me being a terrible housekeeper because I do things differently from him. And yes I got to the stage where I would think 'if he's going to criticise me whatever I do then I might as well not bother'. We were always fairly messy when we were first married, and he gradually tolerated less and less mess and family chaos over the years. And families are chaotic, that's pretty unavoidable. Who wants to live as a kid too frightened to make mess or noise? I think H has got a bit better about kids and mess and so on, or at least less critical (I suppose it's easier to be less critical when you're not there much) but I doubt he connects this stuff with his stress and anxiety and control issues either. Gosh, they were pretty unbearable to live with weren't they?
But even earlier in our relationship when things weren't in this terrible dynamic, I would get anxious about what I interpreted as his distancing behaviours. I would share something with him - perhaps tell him that I loved him, or share a problem or even just tell him something that had happened about my day, and he'd be very taciturn in his response. He'd say 'okay' or something like that. Not all the time, but very often. I work in the arts and he's never once looked at any of my work - which is meant for the public - ever. He says it's because he doesn't understand it, but I've always felt he's just uninterested in the thing that's very important to me. He'd like to wear his headphones and listen to music when we were driving somewhere together. He'd be reluctant to commit to planning a future - even to the point of letting me know when I would next see him (he still doesn't like to commit to regular times for anything, which is difficult when it comes to contact with children and GAL for me) and he is very evasive when asked direct questions about what he wants - about anything at all, from big life stuff, to what he'd like to eat for tea. I always interpreted these things as him pushing me away, and rather than just pulling back myself, which would have been the healthier thing to do, I'd tend to cling - which entrenched the dynamic. It wasn't awful earlier than the last couple of years, but there was this undercurrent of me never really feeling desired or wanted. It was a deep sadness to me. But I can learn not to take that personally - he doesn't really seem to desire or want anything, or at least, has massive trouble expressing that in a way that makes sense to me. I think deep down he's a very fearful, anxious and possibly quite empty person.
Wearing headphones when you're driving somewhere together? Wow... Do you think your H is maybe on the autistic spectrum? Or has some kind of sensory sensitivies? I know my H has this thing about noise, misophonia (I read about it recently, it's a real thing, I thought it was him being nitpicky, especially as he listens to music REALLY loud).
The thing about your work is interesting, do you think maybe he was jealous of the time and attention it took? My H was similarly completely dismissive of my work. He would even stop me midsentence when I was telling him about my work (which most people find really interesting when I tell them) to say that he didn't care and didn't want to hear about it. He was breathtakingly rude to me and then I would feel wounded and retreat and not talk to him. And then after BD he said stuff like 'we don't care about each other's work' and I'd think 'well, you definitely didn't want to listen even though I listened to you talk about yours for HOURS'. But when H said yesterday that the last 5-6 years I should have listened to him, that timeframe is the length of time I've been doing this work for. I think there's a lot of jealousy there. I used to say 'do you want me to be the kind of wife who cleans the house, gets her nails done and goes shopping and that's it? Because I need other stuff in my life'. Funnily enough his sister is exactly that sort of wife and he doesn't think highly of her...But maybe my H did feel that he wasn't being given enough attention because between work and kids and domestic stuff there might not have been much time or inclination for me to be there for him. If only he was capable of saying 'I feel unloved and worried that you give so much of yourself to work and don't save any for me, please let's spend some time together'.
But actually, that is a real 180 my H has made since BD, he asks me how my work is going, he came to a talk I gave about it and enjoyed it, and expresses at least some interest in it. And I have been careful to validate him when he talks about his work (which is always about the politics and egos not technical details) because before I would probably offer suggestions and different perspectives on how people behaved, but he just needed validation.
The planning thing: my H was obsessed with planning holidays because he wanted something to look forward to, but he wouldn't share his diary with me, tell me what he was doing in the next week, tell me if he was going to be home late (but then complain if there was no dinner on the table, or if dinner was on the table he would say he didn't want it and get a takeaway). I tried so very hard to find out basic details but the only time he told me his movements would be when I didn't have my phone on so couldn't write it down, and then he would refuse to email or text me reminders. If I did write stuff down (I have a weird memory, things like dates and stuff fall out easily) he would mock me for being stupid and forgetful. He has actually improved on this a lot since BD. He sometimes even asks me to text him reminders of arrangements we've made. He will volunteer what he's doing for the next week or so when he asks me what I'm up to.
'I think deep down he's a very fearful, anxious and possibly quite empty person', yes this is pretty much what I feel about my H too. He was extraordinarily hard to live with, sometimes I think the kids and I feel relief that he's not here all the time. I used to enjoy his company on holiday, but the weekends he was exhausted and recovering from work and weeknights he was awful, grumpy and tired and shouty and boring. His job is literally killing him and his relationship with his family, it's no fun at all being him but he clings to his job and alcohol even more since he left, he used to talk about looking forward to retirement in a couple of years but now, who knows
Yes - other people have commented that they wonder if he's on the spectrum. Including his mother, at one point. His sister once said to me that she thought he was a 'void' inside. He behaves this way towards everyone - he doesn't have close friends, doesn't talk to his family very much, isn't much of a 'giver' in relationships (but insists that's fine because he doesn't want anything in return...) Generally his heart's desire is to be left alone, and to leave other people alone - I guess that's why I found the EA so blindsiding. From seeing his messages to her he was showing interest in her, thinking about what she would like, buying presents, trying to impress her. I think it was all a fantasy and he would not have been able to sustain it long term, but still, it really hurt.
He did tell me at the time that he'd felt emotionally shut down for years and years, and the EA had let him find that softer, desiring side of himself, and he wanted to bring it into our relationship. I did see some signs of that in the few months of last summer, but I was so upset and angry and mistrustful that it drove him away, and he couldn't really sustain it with me either.
He also doesn't want to let me go - he doesn't want to buy me out of the house, he doesn't want to divorce and he wants to go to therapy. Sometimes he talks about a future with me in it, and sometimes he says he really needs to feel I am on his side, that he has my support, that he can trust me, that we can be close and have fun. He's mentioned rarely his fears about being lonely, about living his life on his own in a rented room and only seeing people at work. These are only words. I don't doubt that there's a part of him that means it, but I doubt - really doubt - he has the capacity to sustain a warm and intimate relationship and the willingness to reflect on why that might be so.
When I think about it like this, and think about my own warm friendships and the way I am able to give to people and receive from them, and the way I enjoy my children, despite how difficult they often are, I feel really really sorry for him. He isn't a bad man, though he's behaved very badly - what I see is a man who doesn't understand why he can't have what he wants, and most of the time is so shut down and afraid that he can't even let himself experience him wanting it.
Actually - that's unfair, what I said about him not being much of a 'giver' - he's a very practical man and he has unselfishly helped his parents, and mine, and other relatives of mine, and me, with practical things. Even today I could phone him and ask him to do something practical for me, and he would do it - perhaps grudgingly, but he would. He offers practical help as often as he can to the kids, and feeling needed as a 'do-er' is really important to him. I don't think he's jealous of my work or resentful of the time it takes - he certainly didn't want me at home or around any more than I was - but I do think because it's artistic and requires a kind of emotional response from the audience, that he just feels inadequate or excluded or doesn't see the point in it. He isn't disrespectful about it and he appreciates the fact it financially keeps us all fairly well (we're not rich but we're comfortable). But he isn't curious about it, or me, in any emotional or intimate sense.
Hmm, I see a lot of parallels between your H and mine. I just wrote several long posts but then deleted them because they were all psychoanalysing my H and as Steve pointed out, I'm trying to do a lot of mind-reading and it's not that helpful! Focusing on me, I keep trying to understand WHY I tolerated H's terrible behaviour for so many years, if he'd been like that at first I would have run away as far as my legs would carry me. But slowly over decades he behaved worse and worse and I tolerated more and he gave less. I think a lot of it comes from my mum, who is a bit of a martyr and had a tyrannical father she was afraid of, and a weak mother who put up with it. Anything to keep the peace. I'm very bad with any sort of confrontation, and I've never learnt how to assert myself. I'm changing that slowly, but it's in my M that it's happening the slowest. My IC says that I make a lot of excuses for H's behaviour, I see it as trying to be empathetic and understanding why he does what he does, but I suppose I'm doing neither him nor me any favours in tolerating poor treatment of me. If my H is going to change I have to change first and allow only positive behaviours from him, if he's not capable of doing that then that'll be his loss.
Lots to talk to my IC about I think. Like discussing what my needs are and how to articulate them better. if they're ever going to be met I feel like I started making progress on that at the start of the year but since then have been backsliding.
I think I'm the same - I do understand H's behaviour as well as I can, and I think I'm able to show some forgiveness and compassion towards him. I think the key thing for me is that just because I can understand it, and feel sorry for it, and see it as a symptom of a wider dynamic that I have a responsibility in co-creating with him, none of that means that I should tolerate it. I suppose there's the thinking and reflecting - which I believe you and I are both very good at - but then that needs to translate into action, which I know I've been very stuck on. I want to keep the compassion and understanding I think I am developing towards H, and add to that some really clear and strong boundaries. He has a right to be angry. He's not a terrible person. I will not listen to him abuse me. All of those things can be true at the same time. I'm trying to move towards thinking about actions rather than concentrate on my thinking and reflecting so I am not falling into the trap of making excuses and tolerating more of the same. It's hard. I think some kinds of IC can keep you stuck in the reflection stage and not move you on to the 'taking action' stage - mine has done that for me a bit, I think, and perhaps your sense that you want more challenge from your IC is about you wanting to move towards taking some action for yourself? Perhaps that is even more important than understanding WHY you haven't taken action previously?
Edited to add: I wonder if the answer for both of us is very simple, when it comes to tolerating the intolerable. It is easier in the moment to capitulate, or pacify, then bear a grudge, then it is to set a boundary. Setting boundaries is hard. It takes confidence. It's a kind of 'relationship laziness' that creeps in when you get too sure of someone. I know I've been incredibly ungrateful and discourteous to H in ways that I'd never dream of being with other people - and it isn't because I don't love him, and it isn't because I'm a terrible person. Just a kind of entropy or inertia. I am sure setting boundaries is a way of being loving and courteous to yourself and the laziness sets in there too.
I am late to the party, but going back to the discussion re: your IC. I always took a list of things I wanted help with. We called it the "tool bag". I would notice areas that I was having difficulty in (Boundaries was the biggest and longest running) and she would give me "tools' to pull out and use when I had a situation. It was fabulous!! I was always a pushover or a sledgehammer, and she helped me learn how to respond in the middle (and how not to react).
for instance, several people in the family would shame me for how much I sleep. My IC first addressed the biggest issue I was missing -
IC: "people care about how much/how little you sleep?" Me: "yes, they ask when I wake up and why I don't feed cows in the morning" IC: "people care about how much/how little you sleep?" Me: "yes. and they call/text super early and then seem judgy when I don't respond right away" IC: "people care about how much/how little you sleep?"
Yes, friends, it took longer than that for it to sink in. Once I realized that it wasn't any of their business and that I didn't have a problem, they did. IC helped me come up with a response. We called it the "golden ticket". (because we were willy wonka cute lol). My golden ticket was "rest is biblical" and I would repeat that until they got off of it.
For the most part that worked, but when my neighbor told me that I really should be up working cows first thing in the AM, I told him that I was impressed that his cows could tell time. ; )
So your IC can help, maybe, but only if you know where you need help. I hope I didn't hijack your thread to make it about me, but sometimes practical, applicable situations help me when someone has had success!!
ME47 XH44, S28 S24 S19
8/17-BD IHS: 1/17-2/19 D FILED (ME): 7/19 D FINAL: 10/20 M23 T25 OW CONFIRMED: 01/21
Do not let your hearts be troubled and do not be afraid.
Oh gosh, 97Hope - 'pushover or sledgehammer' has really, really hit home for me. I can identify with that so well. It gave me the chills.
I think I've either rolled over, or sledgehammered my H so much that there's been very little honesty from me. I've done things I didn't want to do, or hammered him into doing things I wanted to do, that there's been no room for him to be honest to me.
I sometimes think of it as pushing or pulling. We pull people towards us or we push them away. Or we let them pull or push us. I am working on trying to be still and seeing where my H is when he is still, and seeing where that leaves us.
I am working on trying to be still and seeing where my H is when he is still, and seeing where that leaves us.
Could you try being still and seeing where YOU are and just be there? How about trying out NOT seeing where that leaves you and decide for yourself where you want to be?
ME47 XH44, S28 S24 S19
8/17-BD IHS: 1/17-2/19 D FILED (ME): 7/19 D FINAL: 10/20 M23 T25 OW CONFIRMED: 01/21
Do not let your hearts be troubled and do not be afraid.
