97Hope: I think I need to change counsellor, I feel like I've stalled with mine. I would really like someone like yours who gives homework and advice! I feel like I've reached the stage where I'm going in circles with counselling, and I told him I wanted him to challenge me. He's not. I probably need to fire him.
Actually, I feel strangely grateful to him for having done this. This will give me the impetus to finally push things forward towards detachment and thinking more about my future without him. I should probably thank him for being a rude, inconsiderate slob
Perhaps it's your 'lamb and lipstick' moment, Dilly. I know this board has some pretty strict rules about strong language, so just imagine that I'm using all the good old fashioned British curse words at your lazy, disrespectful slob of a husband. I can't imagine what an adequate defence would be from him, but you're right not to tolerate it.
Is it keys back and his stuff out time? What's your next action?
Perhaps before firing your IC, it might be worth asking why he doesn't challenge you? I think it's probably worth talking that through.
My lamb and lipstick moment made me hoot with laughter. I think that's my new favourite board phrase Yes, I really think it might be. I know I've kept saying that I'll stop him cake eating, but this behaviour was beyond the pale. The kitchen wasn't really that terrible, but it was all HIS stuff, all his wine bottles and dirty wine glasses. And he leaves them out at our other place for me to dispose of too, it's like he's rubbing in the fact that he's socialising without me and has chosen wine over wife. Talk about symbolic. And his dirty washing, he also has a load of dirty washing at our other place too, I've left it, it'll probably be nice and mouldy by the time he gets back there. Fine by me. I'm no longer his skivvy. The WORST thing about all this too is that whenever he R talks me, he gives a 'reason' for leaving as me not caring enough to keep the house clean and tidy. Funnily enough, without him around it's a load more clean and tidy with a load less effort. And yes, I did indeed use all the swear words in my extensive lexicon
I don't know what my next move is. I am exhausted beyond belief with lack of sleep and I'm a bit hormonal too, now is not the time to make any rash moves. I'll sleep on it. I'd arranged to go out with him tomorrow night, now I'm not too sure, I'll see how I feel tomorrow. I think I might say that I need to do some serious thinking. I also need to do some serious thinking about my next career move, whether I might even move to a different area after this work finishes at the end of the year, all these sorts of things. I feel quite excited by the prospect actually. My friend I went away with was encouraging me to work out what I want to do with my life (she's in a related field, albeit she is single and a workaholic so not a great role model lol), and I can see lots of exciting stuff in my future. Like I say, I think H has done me a bit of a favour disrespecting me so much, it's certainly not going to continue.
My IC: good point, yes I'll do that. Maybe he'll ask me what I need, perhaps I need to think about that too. I know I have a tendency to ramble and sometimes to come in wanting to talk about one thing and getting highjacked into something else, and yes I know that might be me trying to avoid harder stuff, perhaps. I did hear a podcast about that book, it was very interesting!
He sounds, in lots of ways, like he's operating at the level of a fifteen year old boy. I doubt he sat there thinking, 'how can I make Dilly feel awful' - just as teenagers don't. It's just an unexamined sense of selfishness. Do you think he's treating you like a mother he needs to rebel against in order to find himself? He wants to kick at you and get his independence by breaking those bonds, but you're not allowed to abandon him? The whole way he's operating in this dynamic sounds adolescent at very best.
I could boil with rage about his 'clean and tidy' comment. Is he a bit of a chauvinist, do you think? I have to say, whatever his faults, that my H really isn't. He is a real nit-picker and pretty controlling over domestic life, but I don't think that was to do with the housework itself, I think it was his way of expressing the fact he didn't feel important enough. I find all that side of things much nicer and easier now he's not here. Most of the time the house is pretty clean and spotless, and if I have a week when I can't be bothered, well, so be it - it's not a criminal act!
I already have a 14 year old and a 17 year old and they don't treat me that badly. But you have a good point, time for some boundaries. He's not a chauvinist at work but he seems to be at home. The housework thing is weird, whenever I raise the subject of domestic stuff like a bin going missing or having to put laundry out he goes strange and shuts me down, I have no idea what that's about. He has a cleaner at his flat but has to do his own laundry there and tidy up a bit. I think he thinks he's too important to think about this stuff, though cooking is ok because it's skillful. So yes, he is a chauvinist in his actions, for sure, it's been source of much discontent over the years when I was a SAHM because he had no idea how much work raising small children is, and I always felt like he belittled my efforts. Before we had kids our house was pretty messy and we sort of muddled along cooking and washing and so on, I always worked closer to home so did most of the housework even before kids. But he never complained when I was working. I'm going to ask him for my car keys back tomorrow.
Hmm. It is obviously really important to him in some way. Perhaps being 'looked after' domestically is how he feels cared for. Is acts of service his love language? (My H's definitely an acts of service man. I remember once me crying because he hadn't slept in bed with me, touched me or even smiled at me for several weeks, and I asked him if he even loved me, and he pointed to the fact that he'd mowed the lawns that weekend... I can laugh about it now, not so much then!)
Not to say that means you need to clean up after him - but I've come to understand from my own situation that rows over the correct loading of the dishwasher are never really about the correct way to load the dishwasher. I'm more of a 'look, if the stuff is clean and we have enough dishes, who cares?' sort of person but there's a part of H that really really needs me to care in the same way as he does, because it feels like I am not caring about him if I don't. As we don't live together right now, I plan to do the housework, or not, as I see fit - but I can see if we were ever to live with each other again, we'd have to start from scratch and work out something that suited both of us in terms of housework.
Anyway - this isn't about a married couple working out some middle ground in domestic arrangements. This is about him being a 100% cast iron %&#@&* and you figuring out a healthy and dignified response to it. I can see why you feel it was like a cat coming in and spraying in the house - and perhaps marking territory was some of it - but from the outside it looks to me like a childish bid for care. He still wants mummy to pick up after him.
P.S I finished that book. It was okay - quite light in the end, and not as 'meaty' as I'd hoped. But it was well written and funny and I thought the writer did a really good job of making a narrative out of lots of different patient's stories, and her own life and history, and her more theoretical reflections on therapy and what the relationship between therapist and client can be like. It's very American - she calls her clients 'patients' so the dynamic is a bit different - but worth a read. Also - lots and lots of very short chapters so might be a good listen while running.
P.P.S - I've just thought what your husband's behaviour reminds me of. There's a chapter in a book called 'The Examined Life' about a client who obviously and repeatedly lies to his therapist, and to everyone he's close to. And because most people are awkward or polite, they never really challenge him on those lies - and they really were increasingly outlandish and silly. And in the end, once the psychoanalyst gets to the bottom of it, this client is apparently trying to recreate an experience of early childhood where he felt really loved by his mother. He used to wet the bed, and every morning he'd pull the cover over so nobody would know, and every afternoon the linen would be washed and his pyjamas washed and under his pillow - his mother cleaned it up as if nothing had happened. Apparently as an adult the obvious lying to people who ignored it was the same sort of thing - he wanted to feel loved. That's what sprang to mind when I thought about your H's mess. But as you may have guessed, I overthink EVERYTHING.
Actually, I disagree. And if he wants to feel loved by me doing housework then living in the same house would be a start. I wonder if it was a f*&^ you because I went away with friends for the weekend actually. He had 3 people over by the look of it, he didn't tell me either before or after. I can probably guess who they were (he doesn't have many friends, and not round here). I won't bother asking the kids. But he left 4 wine glasses out, 6 empty bottles of wine and some beer bottles. I think he was definitely marking his territory, we rarely entertained before and when we did he would be the one organising it. He hated me asking my friends over so we only had our joint (actually his originally but then our joint) friends over. Well that won't happen any longer. I am beyond angry. How dare he treat this place like his home only when I'm not here? I won't do anything hasty, but this is definitely a lamb and lipstick moment.
Maybe your lamb and lipstick moment. Or a momentary high. I know that in the thick of my sitch I fluctuated between being certain I was ready to tell my daughter and move on, to desperately wanting to hold things together, to almost anywhere in between. Sometimes in mere minutes it would change. I say this just to let you know that you may be feeling the opposite again at some point. It is normal.
The capacity for the LBS to "forgive" disrespect is astounding. A few weeks into my sitch, With my W cake-eating, and planning on going to MC with me, I found a full profile for her on a dating website, complete with a picture. This was even before I found the set of nudes she had sent to EA OM. I was sure I was done in both cases. Yet even after confronting, and making a stand, I was ready to forgive and move forward with her.
So don't be too hard on yourself if you eventually change your mind and desperately want to hold things together.
M(53), W(54),D(19) M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017 Ring and Piecing since March 2018
Thank you Steve, I understand completely that this might not be the first or last time I make a stand or feel ready to move on. I often change my mind frequently about whether I actually do want him back or not, so I can in a funny way understand my H's confusion. After 9 months the lows aren't so low and the highs aren't so high, I had a good cry and a rage today and they were partly due to tiredness and hormones but mostly due to me feeling that H is taking the mickey waltzing in and treating my home like his home when he unilaterally decided 9 months ago it was no longer his home. Right now I'm angry, but this is one thing I will not let slide. I won't act out of anger, I'll drink the STFU smoothie for a day or two and then work out how to tactfully tell him this won't happen again.
I have already forgiven H for a lot. Not ready to forgive him this yet, that'll take work. But this boundary is going in.
