I've just caught up a little and wanted to say you are not the same Alison as you were when you joined. It is a two step forward one step back dance, and none of us really know where it will lead, but irrespective, I think you will either have a stronger marriage for it, or you will just be stronger for it.
Hey Alison, I am so sorry about your friend, how tragic
I'm glad eldest and H got on ok without you there, hopefully now they have done that they can continue their dance without dragging you into the middle of it (and you can step back out of it too...)
You handled the criticism just wonderfully! I am taking notes here on how to deal with this situation like a proper adult...
I'm glad you had such a great time away, sounds like it was just what you needed.
And those are positive changes that your H has made to address problems in your M, but it's good that you're being realistic about what is possible right now without closing the door entirely.
Finally: thriving rather than surviving is BRILLIANT! Keep on going
I've just read my post back and I've made H sound like a monster - criticising me after I'd come home early after hearing of my friend's death. I can see I've elided my own part in it pretty nicely - which was to be really weepy and teary and upset, and then criticising him first. I think I said something like, 'I just need someone to act like they're pleased to see me when I come home, rather than being bored or irritated or scared of me,' and I can see he was terrified of not being able to comfort me, and me getting angry about that. It wasn't wrong of me to be upset and I'd have had better control if I hadn't have had such shocking news. It would have been nice for him to have been able to absorb that, but, well, he just can't - he isn't capable of being a proper husband and I was expecting him to act like one and that was on me.
I've pretty much decided I will go to MC with him. I had a good think while I was away. I think the thing I am most afraid of is accepting less than I want, or being unable to say what I really think because I am worried it will drive him away. I need to accept that the marriage is pretty much dead on its feet right now, and if it turns out my honesty and his means that it can't make it work, then at least we can get the finances settled and he can take on a more equitable share on the childcare. I am afraid he will just stonewall and criticise and moan he doesn't get what he wants without saying what it is he actually wants, but I am going to give him a chance to act differently and if it doesn't seem he is able to come up with the goods, I am going to buy him out of the house and divorce him. I know the separation has only been six months, but I really don't have anything at all to say to him I haven't said a hundred thousand times before. If he isn't able to speak up for himself and participate like an adult in a repair, then he isn't the man I want to spend my life with. Dropping the rope and leaving it to him is the single thing I have not tried yet.
I feel calm and positive about this.
Edited to add: this is H's usual night to come over and spend time with the kids. He hasn't been in touch to arrange anything and I haven't chased it up. I am going to leave organising all contact with them or me to him now - I chased him a bit on this, and hand on heart I think I am guilty of using his wish to come and see the kids here at our home to see him myself. I'm going to stop doing that now. If he wants to come and see me I will welcome that, but I won't chase for it. I will just reply to his texts with warmth and kindness - but for my own peace of mind I need to see him making small steps to initiate contact with me now.
Hmm, that's good that you could spot your own role in that, still there is no need for him to counter-attack if you attacked him first because you were upset about your friend. Maybe MC can help unpick some of these negative cycles you both engage in? I know you've been before, but maybe you have a better handle on your role in this now? It seems like MC is worth a shot, not sure you have anything to lose...
Yes - I can see he is a little less reactive and he does claim to be very committed to making things work, and he will acknowledge he needs to look at himself and his own behaviour - though whether he's done that and what he's seen when he looked isn't anything he's shared with me... lol. I have a fear that it is all talk and no action - and I've been here before - but I love him and I am willing to take a risk because I have seen some action.
I needed to think about what was different when we went to MC. And what I came up with was this - he's suggested it, I didn't put a gun to his head by threatening divorce. And that he's making practical sacrifices to make it possible, including telling his line manager the reason why he wanted a change in hours and work location (this is MASSIVE for him.) He might just be doing it so he can say he's ticked the box, but I don't think so. He's massively concerned by what people think of him, and very private. And if he is, well, I will find that out pretty quickly.
I also think I am different. Not different enough. But different. I think I was holding him emotional hostage last time. It was all about my pain and distress and his resentment. I want a therapy that is more solution focused and looks forward. I am not interested in hearing him bang on about the past and I am no longer willing to do that myself either. So there is a fair bit that is different. I also feel more confident that if it doesn't work for me, I will pull the plug on it after giving it a fair chance - let's say six sessions.
That does sound like he's done some 180s there. I'm not sure that men in general are very good at sharing with us what they see when looking inside...
That sounds like an excellent idea to avoid dumping resentments on each other, that just keeps you both stuck in a negative cycle. Every time my H gives me the whole R talk it annoys me so much that he bangs on about the past, there is no way you can build a better future if you're clinging onto resentments. I now feel that there were certain things my H did in our marriage which were completely unacceptable (I was just remembering one this morning actually, when I found out I was pregnant with ds1 I made a special meal and chilled some champagne ready for him to come home from a golf game. When he came back he was annoyed, refused to drink the champagne, said he didn't like the meal and was generally not as happy as an expectant father should be at the news!!), but I'm prepared to put those unacceptable behaviours in the past if we can both change. I'm sure some of my behaviours were unacceptable too, but again my H has to be able to forgive me like I forgive him.
Do you have any particularly form of MC in mind? I know some are more solution oriented than others.
Eldest has a medical condition that involves a regular quite invasive check up (under anaesthetic) at the hospital. He's due it in a couple of months, in fact. When we went last year, I was worried sick and while H was there, he was actually sitting on the other side of the waiting room texting his EA woman, too hungover to really engage with us. He'd been out with her the night before and was worried he'd embarrassed himself in front of her, so was trying to do some image management and arrange to see her again. I don't know if I will ever really be able to truly forgive that. I am sure he has some moments of mine that were unacceptable too, and which he clearly struggles to let go of and forgive. There's a difference, I think, between just not bringing things up as ammunition in an argument (which is where I am at) and genuinely letting go of them. I do love my H very much, but I have a lot of grief at no longer being able to look at him the way I did. I think I hero worshipped him a bit and I definitely thought of him as steadier, more controlled, more moral and generally just 'better' than me. He loved that - course he did - and it's been a real hard transition for me to try to love a flawed human.
I am going to see what he says in respect of MC. He says he hasn't had time to think about it yet. I let him know I'd be willing to see the family therapist we saw in Feb. I liked her suggestions, I like it that she got a wider view of us as parents, as conflicting parenting styles is something we have to address together and get sorted - and I liked how detailed and practical she was in an email with follow up suggestions that were about concrete ways forward. He said he would have a think. So I guess the ball is in his court. If there's no movement by the end of next month, I will visit a solicitor. I haven't told him that - but for my sanity I need to keep things moving forward, and I am not happy with his financial contribution (nil) and his off and on approach to childcare and want those made regular either through therapy or solicitors.
Ugh, that is pretty horrible of your H! I can remember a LOT of horrendous things my H has done over the years, you don't have 30 years of someone without seeing their ugliest side do you? I do feel like I genuinely forgive my H for them though, it's not forgetting them, it's just saying to myself 'that behaviour was unacceptable, he shouldn't have done that but YOU also shouldn't have tolerated it, that last part is on you', and then also realising that my H also has a list of awful things I have done to him, and thinking that if I want to be forgiven then I can only model that behaviour first and I have no control over whether he does or not. There's not much future in a M if both sides don't forgive though is there?
That sounds like a great idea about the family therapist, he might feel more comfortable if he's already met her. I hope he gets moving on it!
When I take the focus off my H for a minute - and I could list many many instances of really ugly, selfish and unacceptable behaviour from him - I know the deep deep grief I am feeling (and I did lots of crying on my week away) is about letting go of the idea that he was going to save me and rescue me, that he was better than me, that he was some kind of hero which meant I could be fragile and weak and damaged and he would always be wise and big and steady enough to sort it all out. I think he's actually a very good man in lots of ways, and he's been under a lot of pressure the past couple of years, and he's needed an adult as a wife and not had one, and he's crumbled a bit and acted like an utter ... well, so and so, at times. I think I need to grow up. To be a flawed adult wife who can take care of her own emotions and tolerate living with someone who is flawed, sometimes unpredictable, sometimes unavailable, and generally a decent human being. That wasn't what I signed up for when I got married - I wanted the fairytale that let me be the little girl forever. And I still have a lot of sadness about the death of that dream to work through and I need to do that on my own before I am really ready to look around and explore with H what might come next.
Yes, today in fact. I don't think I will be ready for piecing, or another R with someone else at some point in the (distant) future, unless I work through this. It does feel like a kind of grief. I know that H is aware of it and feels very burdened by my sadness at him not being what I want him to be - and I get that. The job for me is to process that, and decide if he, as he is, is someone who I want. Today I would say no, without any problems at all. But he is showing willingness to change and see some small changes. I am not in piecing and I am not ready for that - even if it were on offer - but as time goes on I am seeing how unbelievably difficult the task will be. Much more difficult than walking away. It is making me reflect seriously on whether it is worth my while. Whether it would improve my life as it stands today. I won't make a decision today. I will wait until the end of June for us to get into MC and give that a fair chance, and it feels good to me that if MC isn't set up or doesn't work, divorce is a healthy step and an option I can handle.
How did IC go? And I wouldn't be so sure about walking away being the easy option. Wherever you go, there you are. And you take your issues with you into the next R too. So unless you want to be alone for the rest of your life, best to deal with your issues now...
It was really hard, actually - the way it sometimes is. We talked a lot about my sadness - she said it didn't sound like I wanted perfection, only an acknowledgement from him that he'd deeply hurt me and I was wounded, and a more reciprocal relationship in terms of care, thought and attention. And that neither of those things were desires that I should work on eliminating. So it put me back a bit really. I guess I thought if I could work through some unreasonable expectations, the sadness would lift. But it really isn't unreasonable to expect that my sadness would be met by compassion from my husband, rather than irritation, anger or indifference. And that the encouragement and affection and effort I am attempting to put his way would be returned a little. I guess I can want what I want, and I need to accept that H does not offer that to me. Being honest with myself, there's no relationship between us now - other than the love I pour into a black hole. And I am entitled to my sadness, but I have to hide it when I am around him because it seems to trigger his anger. I do want to stop doing that. Which means being around him much much less.
I didn't reply to his goodnight message last night. He texted this morning wanting to make arrangements for later in the week, so I see he isn't interested in seeing Youngest tonight either (which is his regular night to come and visit). He's also wanting me to do more childcare at the weekend as he is working on Sunday. It's fine - he took care of them both for me for a full week while I was on holiday and I understand him wanting some time out to himself. But I notice that him initiating contact is to do with him getting something he wants, not offering anything to me.
On Thursday we were supposed to go together to take Eldest to a hospital appointment. It's an outpatient clinic appointment, so nothing risky or terrible, but it is so bound up in memories of this time last year for me and how much he hurt me and let me down. I don't trust myself to actually be able to focus on Eldest on the day if H is there. So I said I'd prefer to take Eldest on my own, and have him just look after Youngest instead. That's a massive 180 for me as I usually cling to him like a limpet when anything stressful is happening, but in my heart of hearts I can't see him being there helping me or helping Eldest and I just don't want to have to go through those memories of him texting his EA woman how much he couldn't wait to see her again. It's just too much for me. I know I need to forgive him for it, but every time he gets annoyed that I am hurt, the process of forgiveness takes a step back and for my own sake, not the sake of the marriage, I just can't put myself through it.
I am very sad today. Am going to walk and do some work and hang out with my kids and just try to let him go.
I don't think that's entirely fair, actually. I know that he has acknowledged that he has hurt me deeply and that has had a severe effect on me. That there's healing to do that he's caused, but isn't responsible for. That I need to do my own healing. He has acknowledged that. And he has tried to comfort me and show care for me in the past. And he can't do it now, and I am feeling the lack of that, and feeling incredibly vulnerable that I am trying to show him care and encouragement and understanding while there's nothing coming back, and the time when he's always said he will turn back to me and start giving in the relationship is nearly here and I am so afraid. I am afraid there will be more delay and excuses and I'll have believed him all this time for nothing. I'm afraid that we will try to start fixing it and won't be able to. I am afraid that I will never ever be able to do my healing and let go of this sadness about the way he treated me last year, and that will mean our marriage can never heal. I know it is my responsibility but today I just can't seem to do it.
Alison, you have a great understanding of where you are . Being sad is perfectly natural, none of these is easy , I am sure it is one of the hardest things we will ever go through. I know it doesn’t help , but time will heal you . Just keep moving forward and improve yourself so that when you come out the other side you will be set to have a much better life and experience than before all the heartache.
I've really been upset today. I called H at lunch time and had a brief chat with him about tomorrow. I think he understands why I want to handle it myself, though we didn't really get into it.
I know 100% he is just not available to give anything, or repair anything. And I don't see that changing any time soon. I really don't. I believe that he loves me and he probably does want to repair things, but he just can't. I think he's probably quite severely depressed and he won't seek any help or treatment for that. I suspect over the summer things will improve for him a little bit, in that his working situation will be much much better, but that's temporary, and a far cry from the deep intensive soul searching that a repair to our relationship requires.
And I am just so terribly sad about that. I think I knew that once we got to the end of his major work project, that I'd have all kinds of hopes and expectations that he still wouldn't be able to meet. And that I'd be hurt. And that's where I am today. And tomorrow will probably be better and when I am ready to let go, I will, and I wish I was ready today because I miss my husband and he isn't capable of missing me or turning towards me and it really really hurts.
Oh Alison, I don't have any advice, just hugs to offer. I'm sorry you're sad. And I can understand that him being in hospital with you and eldest again would be very triggering.
I kind of think that in order to minimise the horrible memories you need to start painting over them with more positive ones. Maybe that would be somewhere to start? I don't even know what that looks like but maybe you could think of something...
He texted and asked if he could come over for tea tomorrow night after we get back from the hospital. And I texted back saying I wanted him to come home, properly, tonight. That I wanted flowers and mix tapes and his whole heart and I couldn't hold onto a ghost any more, and if he couldn't come back, I would accept that, and I would be fine. And I texted him a poem. And a link to a song. And I bought a leg of lamb and put it in the oven. And then I bought a packet of cigarettes and sat in the garden getting rained on for an hour.
I know. I know. Whatever 2x4s people are about to dish out to me, I am already dishing them out to myself.
The thing is, I mean it. I do. I can't hold on to him any more and if he can't give me more and be a husband to me and at least start making a repair, then I need to get out, drop the rope and go dark because this sadness is too much. I am moving towards happiness and that means away from him.
You are spinning hun. Breath. It will be ok. We all fall of the horse. It was before your time here, but after months of DBg I basically threw myself at my H in the most disgraceful way. And I will tell you what all the good people here told me - stop beating yourself up and get back on that horse. You can do this.
You can gloss over it and pretend it didnt happen, go dark or apologise. Do whatever feels right for you. I will bet my last dollar that he would like to pretend it didnt happen. They dont like emotions - it makes them uncomfortable.
FYI - i apologised. Im sorry for my behavior. This is hard but i know that that wasnt fair on you and it is beneath me. It wont happen again. And then carried on. I have faltered since, but never to the same extent.
You will be fine. Head high, back straight, one day at a time. One breath at a time.
Gosh Alison- when you'd said you'd done something insane I thought you'd lost your sh** and killed him.
I don't think anybody needs to point out it goes against DB principles; you know that already.
But i'm going to look at it differently. If you've reached the end of your tolerance then that's your right. Essentially you've said 'be in this marriage, all in, or get out' I don't think that's any different from my 'I'm not continuing in a 3 person relationship, so it's over'
So, you've reached your boundary. Let's hope that he knows you well enough to know that you mean it. And if you mean it then follow it through. Last resort technique.
If tomorrow you have regrets then apologise or pretend it didn't happen.
Only you can decide which route to follow. You are strong enough for whichever route you choose.
I agree Allison, it hurts and you want your H back. If he is already gone then what you did was not wrong. It was your choice. There is no right or wrong, its only what you feel is right or wrong to do. If you felt the need to tell him that, then thats your choice, so dont beat yourself up about it.
If you are honestly to the point where you want him back or nothing, then its probably a good thing you voiced that to him. Maybe its time for LRT for you. Maybe you need to start moving on and remove him from your heart.
I made that decision with my EXWW. She pushed the D along finally and I agreed and signed it all without hesitation, because I am way to valuable to be sitting around waiting for someone who has shown me they dont care about me and that they will choose their selfish desires before me.
I dropped that rope and lit it on fire. I will not play games or wait around. I have way too much to live for and way too much to offer. My EXWW wanted out, she got it and I will NOT look back. I absolutely miss my wife, but not this selfish NPD shell of my wife. The person that I loved is long gone and therefore, so am I.
You will find love again. If your H doesnt come back, you will find someone that will cherish you, love you, support you, empathize with you, adore you, pay attention to you, life you up and treat you like the goddess that you are, because you deserve that. I promise that you will feel better. I am on my last two days in my home with my EXWW and my kids. Then I am off on my own in the wild for the first time ever with my kids half the time. I am looking forward to steering my own life and meeting my own goals. You will get to the same point by choosing to do so. When the time is right for you.
M:16 T:21 H(me) 38 WW: 38 S11 D16 D19 Red Flags of A: March 2018 ILYBNILWY: August 4, 2018 Moved out of MBR: September 24, 2018 BD/Confirmation of A: October 31, 2018 D Filed: March 27, 2019
Can you explain the last resort technique? I think I might be there.
LRT is literally ending it all and walking away, going dark, moving on, with a slight hope that this will jar your WAS into realizing they are losing you. But you are doing this with full knowing that you are going to completely end your MR. You are there when you are completely detached and completely moving forward with zero expectations from your WAS.
M:16 T:21 H(me) 38 WW: 38 S11 D16 D19 Red Flags of A: March 2018 ILYBNILWY: August 4, 2018 Moved out of MBR: September 24, 2018 BD/Confirmation of A: October 31, 2018 D Filed: March 27, 2019
Thank you everyone. Yorkie - you did make me laugh. I think spousal murder would be a DB first, wouldn't it? Possibly a rather drastic way of applying the LRT.
Well, he came back. He went to his own house first and picked up a few things then turned up at the door. He gave me a hug and said he didn't want any heavy conversations tonight because he was tired and had had a really bad night the night before with nightmares and anxiety. I said okay. So we sat and had our lamb dinner and after tea watched a film sitting together on the settee. I took the dog out, we went to bed. Youngest was a bit unwell and upset so in the end she slept in bed with H and I slept in her bed, which was fine.
There was a moment when I was cleaning up after tea and locking up the house and I went to him while he was sorting out Youngest and asked if he needed anything (I was thinking tea, calpol, etc) and he said 'it's going to take more than a lamb dinner and you wearing a bit of lipstick,' and I said, 'I know that,' and he said 'I don't think you have any idea what I want,' and I said, 'you could tell me,' and he said 'I just need to rest,' and I said, 'Well rest. And there's no need to be cruel,' and he said 'I told you I didn't want to talk about anything tonight,' and I said 'yes, and all I've done is ask you if you need anything while you're putting Youngest to bed,' and he accepted that. He came to me afterwards for a hug and I said 'you're allowed to be out of sorts and in need of rest,' and he said thank you, then we all went to sleep.
He's off to work now. He's coming home at lunch time to take care of Youngest and dog while I do Eldest's hospital appointment. That is practically much better than us all going together - esp. as Youngest is under the weather - and I hope will make it easier for me just to get on with the day and not replay old memories. What happens after that I don't know. I can cope with him being depressed and exhausted. I can cope with things between us being fragile and it taking a long time - and MC - for it to be repaired between us - I can cope with him not being perfect and my own anxieties about that. All that is fine. But I won't put up with him throwing the past in my face at every opportunity or complaining about things without participating in a resolution. He knows that full well. Its time for me to put my money where my mouth is.
Time will tell I suppose. The ultimatum was against DB principles and will probably blow up in my face at some point. I suspect he will stay a couple of days then sneak off back to his own house, claiming that he'd never agreed to come back permanently and I am manipulating him and controlling him. If he does that, he is free to leave - he was always free to leave - but then I go to LRT and he doesn't have a wife. Maybe I should have been more patient - but my needs matter too and it's either this or the LRT which I am ready to do and very clear about and I would rather that than limping along in this half-life any longer with him making vague promises about the future and me tossing and turning and being ambivalent about them.
Well, I'm shocked. There was me thinking that my marriage had broken down because I didn't cook lamb dinner nor wear lipstick. I'll have to rethink now.
What a numpty comment but in the spirit of harmony we'll let it go!!
Alison, you are now going to have to box clever. You need to be very specific in your interactions or he's going to misread them. "do you want a cup of tea or any calpol for youngest"
It's good to be realistic but if you act as if you expect him to fail then it may be a self fulling prophecy. Live in the moment and try not to worry about if he's going to bottle it in a couple of days. I think it will come across in your body language and conversations.
But do stick to your boundary about the blaming and cruel talking. Tell him you won't listen to it and leave the room / the house / put the phone down whatever.
Nothing has to be said at the moment. Just get used to being in each other's space for now. Let him be and see that you are not going to force anything. He's fallen out of his boat, he's swirling in the rapids trying to hang on. Every time you try to get some rational actions and sense out of him, he doesn't hear the sense, just hears pressure to 'get back in the bl**dy boat"
I think nothing should be said for the time being. I think he's burned out and depressed. I also wonder if he's going to feel resentful and forced into a corner by me. He is going to feel pressured. He has a right to feel that. There is pressure here and I am applying it. The corner he is in is to work on our marriage, or watch me end it - and yes, he can feel as resentful about that as he likes, but I won't tolerate a half-life any longer. It might be that if I'd waited another three months then he'd have had his time to rest and reflect and come back to me on his own, but that wasn't possible for me - it was a boundary - and that is where we are. I think he does believe this. Which doesn't mean I expect hearts and flowers and a happy ending today.
I think I need to carry on with GAL and 180s and detaching and as far as I can, ignore his numpty comments (which come from fear and resentment and uncertainty - and I can have empathy with that because I feel it too, but I've had the rest and reflection time that he hasn't had) and set a boundary on the blaming and cruel behaviour. I won't argue with him about it, but I won't get embroiled in it any more either. I can be caring and loving without being a doormat. That's going to be hard for me, but that's my problem and not his. And I know in my heart of hears I am ready to end this marriage if he isn't able to participate in repair. I need to think to myself about what small steps from him would look like to me. But for the time being he can rest and we can talk about starting MC in a couple of weeks.
There was a moment when I was cleaning up after tea and locking up the house and I went to him while he was sorting out Youngest and asked if he needed anything (I was thinking tea, calpol, etc) and he said 'it's going to take more than a lamb dinner and you wearing a bit of lipstick,' and I said, 'I know that,' and he said 'I don't think you have any idea what I want,' and I said, 'you could tell me,' and he said 'I just need to rest,' and I said, 'Well rest. And there's no need to be cruel,' and he said 'I told you I didn't want to talk about anything tonight,' and I said 'yes, and all I've done is ask you if you need anything while you're putting Youngest to bed,' and he accepted that. He came to me afterwards for a hug and I said 'you're allowed to be out of sorts and in need of rest,' and he said thank you, then we all went to sleep.
You don't have any idea what I want, ugh! HOW ABOUT THEY JUST COMMUNICATE WITH US???!!! In reality he means HE doesn't have any idea what he wants. Which sounds just like my H. And he sounds burnt out and unhappy and exhausted. Which also sounds just like my H. At what stage will they take a good long look at themselves and pull themselves out of this abyss?
You're doing fine Alison. And I get the impatience and living a half life, it's so frustrating and painful and seemingly unnecessary. But they're right on here when they say it's a marathon. You're not going to get your H back with grand pronouncements, but by working on your own safety and security and tiny, tiny steps towards him, and then only if he makes tiny, tiny steps towards you. It's like a dance in slow motion. As I told my IC, this marriage took decades and lack of attention to fall apart so it's going to take years to repair and a lot of attention. If it's even possible.
I know, Dilly. He was being utterly unreasonable. Whenever he has a complaint about something he dumps it all in my lap, calls me controlling and dismissive if I offer suggestions for repairing it, rejects any attempts at me offering empathy and compassion... I can't make his effort for him, I can't solve the mental health problems he is clearly having, and I can no longer be held responsible for them and be placed in a position where I live a half life waiting for him because he can't cope with a proper family life. My IC seems to believe that what he really wants is for me to apologise for everything and accept the blame, because blame is a person's way of putting uncomfortable feelings onto someone else - so long as he blames me for him feeling awful, he doesn't need to put the work into fixing whatever it is about his life and his marriage that makes him feel awful. I won't do that for him anymore.
I suspect that he doesn't want a divorce and he doesn't want to lose the services I am providing for him right now - the childcare, the understanding listening, the meals for his freezer now and again, the possibility that we can repair things in the future, the idea that he has a home he's just choosing not to be in at the moment, but is still there. The financial stability, the place for all his things, the place of welcome and understanding to come back to and see his kids when he's had a hard day at work. But he doesn't want to, or isn't able to, man up and do the repair work. His time for wavering is now over. None of that is going to be there for him unless he starts participating.
It will be a marathon. And he can either start running his, or watch me vanish into the dust without him. I don't know what the outcome will be and he's entirely free to choose whatever he wants, but I know for sure what I am choosing. I want to be happy and I will never again be his doormat and scapegoat.
I know exactly where you're coming from Alison, I have many of the same feelings myself about my H. It's so true that we didn't break them so we can't fix them. The blame thing is so disempowering, we have to be so careful not to blame our Hs ourselves when we see the damage they cause with their blame. Stepping off the blame ride is hard but essential I think, as well as not falling into the trap of thinking 'well, I'm working on my issues and he's not so I'm a better person'. I think sometimes I do that and my friends encourage me, but that's not healthy either!
I am trying not to blame him. I think he's doing his best, and I think I'm further along in the process than he is because I've had space and time to reflect and he hasn't. And as it stands, his best isn't good enough to sustain a marriage and either he does better, or the marriage ends. I guess we'll see. I feel okay today. I've decided unless he has some particular objection and needs me to do bath and bed with Youngest (if he's tired, that's fair enough) then I am going to go out and GAL with some friends for a couple of hours this evening. I don't want to cling to him or crowd him and I need some fun and conversation that he's in no fit state to provide right now.
Journalling: hectic day yesterday. Eldest's appointment went well. I managed to stay focused on him and he was pleased with how it went too - saw a much friendlier consultant than last time, which makes things easier. Some of them have no communication skills at all... traffic home was absolutely awful so we were pretty late back.H had made tea for us all, which was nice, and spent the afternoon out with Youngest. Everyone totally exhausted so bed early. Slept in bed with H, which was nice, and a bit strange.
He was affectionate with me and talked to me a bit about his work plans - it isn't set in stone yet and it turns out this new department is about to bring in some shift changes that would make moving there a bit pointless, so he's not decided yet. I just validated. He needs to decide next week and I said whatever decision he made, we'd make it work, and him balancing his own quality of life into it was really important. I also said that we could find a marriage counsellor who would see us in the evenings or at weekends, and we would make it work.
He also talked about taking some holiday between the end of this work project (next week) and the start of new job, if he takes it, which I think is positive. He was also very nice to me about the hospital appointment - we didn't talk about it in detail but he knows what was on his mind. He gave me a hug and said he didn't have much spare emotional energy to give me, but he was pleased I'd managed it all so well and he was proud of me, and that was enough, to be honest, as I wasn't up for a big feelings talk either.
This morning he was up early and brought me a coffee in bed. That was so lovely. I've missed that. He was getting ready and I said I'd been taking the kids out to the beach on Friday nights, and we'd be doing that tonight and if he wanted to come with us that would be fine, but I knew he might be tired after work (he is on his feet all day). He said he'd decide when he got back. Then about five minutes later he was talking to Youngest, telling her that he might not come home tonight, but if he didn't he would be back in the morning. I waited until we were alone and said - 'you might not come back tonight?' and he said, 'well, all my things are somewhere else,' and I nodded. And he said 'I can't just move in after all you've put me through,' and I said, 'okay. That's your choice. But I want you to know I meant what I said,' and he said 'we've obviously had some kind of misunderstanding,' and I said, 'I think I'm being really clear now and I think I was clear on Wednesday too. I meant what I said,' and he said he was going to be late for work and needed to go, and I wished him a good day.
So, that's where we are. I feel a bit shaky but okay. It is sort of what I thought would happen. Him pretending that I wasn't clear or it was just a misunderstanding is another type of evasion - him evading the crunch point that my boundary has brought him to. I didn't really think that giving him an ultimatum would get him back to the house and back with me. I didn't give it thinking that from then on it would be a happy ending. But I am determined that I won't carry on this half-life any longer, with him dropping in to family life when he wants it, and not when he doesn't. I didn't expect he would be here 100% from here on out - obviously he will have things to sort out at the room he is renting, etc etc. But I'm not going to have him pretend that this was a misunderstanding. I was clear and I am carrying on being clear. He either participates fully in working on our marriage which means coming home and coming to MC with me, or I go dark.
I'm going to leave him to it today. I doubt I will see him this evening. I won't contact him if he doesn't come home. He knows what the score is.
Plan for today is: contact mortgage broker and get a figure for what it would cost me to buy him out of the mortgage. Some work to do this morning, and some skype appointments this afternoon. Beach trip tonight with Youngest (Eldest will be out socialising - which I am glad about). Tomorrow morning I have GAL plans and need to do some housework in the afternoon. Will try to see a friend on Sunday. I suspect I will be sad, but also purposeful and I don't want to lose that purpose. This is my marriage ending and I need to take some practical action to get the finances sorted.
So - he's texted me saying he won't be pressured by me and won't be coming back. I said I understood, I knew he was a good man and I accepted his decision but the status quo was no longer on offer. Which meant he needed to see the kids at his own place from now on.
Oh Alison, have a whole bunch of hugs, it sounds like you've had a rollercoaster few days. It sounds like he was offering you...something. But that it was all too much pressure for him. That's understandable I think, to go from living separately to being expected to come back to participate 100% in family life was too much for him to handle. And maybe he was as frightened as you that doing that would mean going back to your old broken marriage.
You've been very impulsive, and I empathise so much with your frustration. You want to GET ON WITH YOUR LIFE, preferably with him in it. I feel that too. However, I don't think impulsiveness is ever rewarded in this process. Then again, things dragging out slowly and painfully also might not be rewarded, and sometimes action is just the only thing you can bear to do.
I hope you're ok. I think you've done the right thing to let him feel the pain of being properly separated instead of just when he fancies. I should maybe take my own advice here...Take care of yourself xx
thanks for that. I feel okay. Sad, but not surprised, and okay.
I think you're right - he probably wants to be able to offer me what I want, and he can't. And I understand that. I don't think he's hurting me deliberately. But the situation was hurting me and it's my responsibility to take care of myself. It looks impulsive, I'll admit that - but from the start of this separation I'd always said to myself I wouldn't carry on with 'holding on to him' (as he put it) unless he gave me something to hold on to, and that I needed to see that happening by the end of his big work project. The main part of his big project ended in the middle of May. What he's doing now is a normal amount of working hours at a location near to his (and our) home.
What I've had from him so far is words - promises to start repairing in the future, promises for MC and a change in his working location - but action has not materialised. He comes over and sees his kids here a couple of times a week, is cooked for, is looked after and cherished when he is sick, but in terms of offering to meet my needs - there's not much more forthcoming then there was six months ago. Things have vastly improved between him and Eldest - and I am so glad for that for both their sakes, but that isn't a marriage. Things are more cordial between us, but I suspect that's because a) I've got less needy - appropriately so and b) better at pretending my valid needs aren't important.
My valid needs aren't being met, I don't see any signs of them being met - or of him even being able to move past blame long enough to acknowledge that they are valid - and I don't want to wait any more. I am so much happier in every single area of my life, and the marriage and my relationship to H felt like the millstone around my neck. I will be heartbroken to let it go - but in order to move forward into a happy life I either need someone working with me to build a new marriage, or I need to be single so I can complete the building of my own happy life. I had hoped for the first but it looks like what I'll be doing is the second, and that has to be okay.
Yes, you've made a big decision here, and you're right that action matters and words don't. On to a new chapter for you, you've grown much stronger over these months and you will be ok eventually, no matter what happens.
I just looked back at what I wrote to you when you first joined. I still stand by what I wrote. You have analysed and analysed your marriage and made some changes. But I don't think you've been able to properly analyse because you don't know the whole picture.
But it doesn't matter because you've arrived at your destination anyway.
By that I don't necessarily mean D, but where you drop the rope and decide that he can get on with whatever it is and you will only think about yourself and your kids.
Yorkie - I really don't believe he is having an A. If he is, then it doesn't really change my decision of today. Would I have acted differently over the last six months if I'd have known that for sure? I think I would have done, yes. But what's done is done. I've looked at myself, I've started to make the changes I need to make to address my own shortcomings - which are true no matter what he is doing or has done, and I've given him as much care and attention as I've been able to - and I've done it knowing full well that he hasn't been in position to return anything to me. I tried to do it freely, without conditions, and sometimes I succeeded at that and at other times I was trying to love him into coming back, or heal him, or do his growing for him. I accept that.
I think what I see today is that he isn't able to even consider that my needs are valid. Not being able to meet them is one thing - and totally forgivable. But he isn't even in a space where he can understand that a relationship needs two people in it. He wants me to 'hold on' to him - which basically means being available to meet what small needs he has from me, while not offering anything back. I don't want to do that anymore because it was making me incredibly sad when so much else in my life is making me happy. I am determined. I want to be happy. I want a great life. And it is perfectly possible for me to have a happy great life as a divorced woman, but it isn't possible to have one as the one person putting love into a broken marriage.
It is a shame that things are the way they are. I wish they weren't. But acceptance is needed, then action to move forward.
Yorkie - I really don't believe he is having an A. If he is, then it doesn't really change my decision of today. Would I have acted differently over the last six months if I'd have known that for sure? I think I would have done, yes. But what's done is done. I've looked at myself, I've started to make the changes I need to make to address my own shortcomings - which are true no matter what he is doing or has done, and I've given him as much care and attention as I've been able to - and I've done it knowing full well that he hasn't been in position to return anything to me. I tried to do it freely, without conditions, and sometimes I succeeded at that and at other times I was trying to love him into coming back, or heal him, or do his growing for him. I accept that.
I think what I see today is that he isn't able to even consider that my needs are valid. Not being able to meet them is one thing - and totally forgivable. But he isn't even in a space where he can understand that a relationship needs two people in it. He wants me to 'hold on' to him - which basically means being available to meet what small needs he has from me, while not offering anything back. I don't want to do that anymore because it was making me incredibly sad when so much else in my life is making me happy. I am determined. I want to be happy. I want a great life. And it is perfectly possible for me to have a happy great life as a divorced woman, but it isn't possible to have one as the one person putting love into a broken marriage.
It is a shame that things are the way they are. I wish they weren't. But acceptance is needed, then action to move forward.
I was listening to something the other day where they were talking about divorce and how long it takes to get over it. They reckoned 5 to 7 years was about average, and that really you never truly get over it. This was both terrifying and comforting to me! The bond that you have between spouses is really strong and really painful to break, even if the M has been struggling for a long time.
That's true, Dilly. I love that man and in some ways I know I always will. It was actually easier to be angry and to be in blame, as I was last year. It's addictive, but it also protects you against grief. I need to grieve but I also need to start that process of moving forwards. I love him and I think because I love him the kindest thing I can do for both of us is to accept that he can't give me what I need, I can't stop needing it, and the best thing is to let things go.
Sunday I will buy garden furniture. He wanted me to wait until he could help choose, so it will be a small and happy thing I can do for the kids to make our summer a bit lovelier and nothing he needs to be involved in right now.
Silent reader over here. I wrote a post that didn’t post for some reason yesterday to you before your H decided he wasn’t staying here.
And honestly? I am relieved. He is borderline emotionally abusive to you. He gaslights. When I read about the other night you had, I was cringing. He says he doesn’t want to talk about anything , tells you when you asked if he needed anything “it’s going to take more than lamb and lipstick” and you still try to nice him and he says “ I don’t you I didn’t want to talk” really? He leaves you with a disrespectful comment, you address it and you aren’t supposed to say anything? Oh heck no! He’s been disrespectful and mean to you so many times. Don’t validate that BEHAVIOR. Validating emotions is one thing, but validating his kind of behavior is a huge no. Next time say “I will not tolerate disrespect and WALK AWAY.
Whatever his deal is, he needs to deal with it on his own. Not in the same vicinity as you. You are not there to be someone to beat up in his depression or whatever it is. You don’t want your kids to see that .
Let him have his alone time without you catering to his needs and emotions, and mistreatment of you. He’s in for a rude awakening to find out you are not to blame for the way he is acting or feels.
^^^YES I really agree with what Ginger said. Surely you knew this attempt to "nice" him back was going to fail miserably, the outcome was very predictable. Maybe you needed one last rejection to finally let him go, I'm not sure. But you really do need to let him go, this relationship has been TOXIC for so long and is going to destroy you if you continue this routine of pushing him away and trying to pull him back in again. Just let him go and move on, you need to do it for you and especially for the kids. I'm not saying there's no chance for recon in the future but he really needs to own his crap first and he's nowhere close to doing that.
You're right. I know that very clearly. I knew even as I was asking him to come home what the answer would be, and I have it. It is sad but I am not surprised.
He finished work early today and said he wanted to pick up Youngest. He turned up about an hour ago. He wasn't wearing his wedding ring and picked up a few bits and pieces he'd brought to the house on Wednesday. He said he'd talked to one of his work colleagues about what I'd asked of him and apparently she had been laughing her head off (his exact words) at the thought he'd want to come home. He said 'someone you know topped themselves and I'm supposed to bend over backwards to give you what you want' and he had this look on his face he gets when he wants to hurt me - a real cruelty and a kind of joy in twisting the knife - but underneath that I saw a scared little boy who has had his toys taken away and is throwing a tantrum about it. That urge to be cruel and try to humiliate me and hurt me when he isn't getting what he wants is still there - I see that very clearly - and it's a part of his character that he needs to be willing to own and address and he isn't. I know it comes from fear - he's furious that he's not getting what he wants from me any more and he's lashing out in order to hurt me, and it didn't hurt me really. It was obvious. He can rationalise it any way he likes, but he's lost his willing compliant wife and he knows it. He'll be furious as long as he likes - I guess until he's willing to look at himself - and I won't listen to it anymore. I've said all I needed to say to him and drawn my line in the sand.
I might feel humiliated in the future about how open and vulnerable I was in the messages I sent to him on Wednesday - I didn't beg or plead but I told him how much I loved him, how sorry I was for the pain I'd caused him, and how much I wanted us to start building a new future together. I sent him a romantic poem and song that expressed some of how I was feeling - and in part, how I still feel - it was a big open hearted request that even as I sent it I knew what the answer would be, but I think it was honest and I made it once and I've had my answer and that's it now. This isn't about me withdrawing or applying LRT in order to get him to feel the loss of me and bring him back. This is about me ending our relationship. I think over these past few months I've slowly become too healthy to be abused or used any longer.
Gosh, how cruel. You know, it doesn't matter WHY he's being cruel here, the fact is that you should not have to suffer that cruelty. I agree with AS that maybe you needed to make a big statement in order to get a big rejection. Hopefully that will help you detach more xx
I won't suffer it any longer. And as I accept he isn't able to do the work to find another way of channelling his feelings of fear and vulnerability, I have to stay away from him. It is very very sad. But I do feel a lot of peace with my decision.
I am okay. He's furious about me changing the council tax and contacting our mortgage broker and started speaking to me terribly about it. I spoke to him in very strong terms about the language and tone from him I would no longer tolerate and chucked him out. Youngest saw this, which I am not proud of (I didn't raise my voice, but I did interrupt H and ask him who the XX he thought he was speaking to) but a line needed to be drawn. H did actually slink off looking pretty shocked.
I have excellent plans for today and I am feeling okay.
Just journalling. I am okay - not heartbroken, but very sad and angry.
Had a lot of contact from H. He's really angry with me. Telling me he won't be manipulated and coerced into being the partner I wanted him to be, and that we always agreed that we'd work on things once he finished his project, and I have no right to be surprised he wants to stick to those plans. I think he's right. But I just can't. And I am furious that I can't - a little bit with him, but mainly with myself and the situation. It seems he isn't able to accept kindness from me without feeling coerced, and isn't able to give anything at all without feeling like he's attempting to placate me. That's the truth of his feelings and I have validated that more or less constantly for six months. At the same time, he's asking for kindness, and asking me to wait in this limbo for longer. He doesn't want to let go of me but he doesn't want to actively repair things either. The truth of my feelings are that I don't believe he is going to arrange the therapy, I don't believe he's interested in participating it in fully, and I don't want to carry on hanging about outside that empty cupboard any more. He finds that manipulative but it doesn't mean I am manipulating. He's also furious I am being much more outspoken at setting a clear boundary for the way he speaks to me. I guess he's going to have to process his own anger and I will have to process mine and we both need to accept that if nobody manipulates or placates the other, but there's just clear honesty, then we are at the end of our marriage.
I have a lot of nervous energy today. I've been for a long and muddy walk and now I am about to tackle some housework, with vigour. This will pass. This will pass.
I’ve just gotten caught up on your situation. I’m no expert at this, but I really think you’ve done the right thing by starting this ball rolling and setting your boundaries. I’m proud of you. I can so relate to the feeling you describe when you know what you are doing is impulsive/doesn’t align with DBing/will almost certainly have a bad result, but you also feel you need to do it. I think it’s important to trust those instincts sometimes. We want our spouses to want to come back, but we also want them to see and respect and accept us as a whole person, and that comes with real, strong emotions and valid needs, as you say.
When I read what your H said to you about laughing with his coworker about your idea he might come home...honestly I cried a few angry tears. That is beyond cruel, on so many levels. Throwing in a third party like that is like cramming a handful of rock salt into your wounds. The fact that your youngest later saw you stand up for yourself? I honestly think that might be for the best. Of course ideally ones children wouldn’t witness any of this, but if he HAS witnesses your H being cruel and disrespectful, it might be a healthy antidote for him to ALSO see you stand up and say that’s not ok with you. That is valuable.
I also really relate to being able to come to the realization that ones spouse may jus not be capable of turning toward one at present. I think I’m experiencing the same. It’s heart breaking. But I do believe that there is great value in recognizing it, for better or for worse. You are so strong, it’s inspiring
Those kind of barbed and cruel remarks really used to hurt me. I used to cry, and get nearly hysterical in my energy at trying to placate him or get him to take it back or comfort me. And often, he would - while holding me responsible for his behaviour. And I'd never challenge him on that because I wanted the comfort.
I feel very different today. I see a silly, out of control, insecure man with a nasty little cruel streak who is upset because he is not getting what he wants and his usual techniques don't seem to be working.
Wow, lots of control issues there with him confronting you over the council tax and mortgage. Did he not get the memo about it being June and about him needing to live up to his promises to start repairing the marriage? I mean, I get that nobody likes being pressured, but these are promises that HE made didn't he? Ugh, stand strong, and yes, nobody should be spoken to like that, I'm glad you called him out on his toddlerish behaviour and showed him the door.
Latest is that he will go to counselling, but I need to find and book the therapist because he doesn't have the time and headspace... I really don't think he gets it.
I'm feeling pretty low tonight. Exhausted, really. I could get back into this with him, and accept more of his evasions and excuses and delays and more of his nasty behaviour when I ask for what he doesn't want to give, or walk away from the little he is offering. But I am just so weary of it. Kids back at school tomorrow so ironing of school uniforms tonight then a day off for me tomorrow for some self care and time outside.
My night consists of ironing of school uniforms too ... oh, the life of a mum
A good trick I learnt when I get overwhelmed is to name five things I can see, three things I can hear and two things I can smell. It is a good way of coming back to the present. Another one (from Yail) is to write a daily gratitude list. I've never been disciplined enough to do this, but am told it helps us to focus on what we have and not what we don't.
You are sucking up his negative energy, and from what you say, he has a hell of a lot of it to go around. You are absorbing it and are making it your own.
When you do the ironing tonight, put some live comedy on the telly. Laughter not only distracts, it has a funny (see what i did there) of healing us. Actually, I have some funny OLD stories to share, which I will do, when I get around to journalling and am sure you will get a laugh out of. And no, there haven't been any more dates, just the chats themselves are hilarious.
I am feeling much better today. I didn't watch some live comedy, but I did listen to a few episodes of a gripping horror themed podcast I enjoy while I was ironing. I actually enjoy the ironing most Sunday nights (and enjoy having a little martyrish whinge about having to do it now and again...): it's an easy meditative sort of job and I can get on with it and feel a little sense of accomplishment when I'm done. I did a load of laundry at the weekend - bedlinen and covers for the sofas (having a dog, no matter how careful you are, involves a lot of filth in the house, I've learned) and the house looks like a laundrette at the moment.
Eldest is back at school today. Youngest isn't back until tomorrow, but he has a playdate this morning. I'm going to spend the morning in a new make-up shop that has opened up in town. H may be right that lipstick won't fix a marriage (what a genius he is) but I love a new lipstick and it's been a while, and I will be paying a bit less on the council tax from now on so I reckon I can afford an extra treat just because...
Your comment about negative energy is spot on. I know that I've always struggled to separate H's feelings from my own. In the past, I've not been able to be happy and okay unless he's feeling happy and okay. I've not been able to feel secure and settled unless he looks to be in a good mood with life and with the kids and with me. The past six months that went into overdrive - every time I saw him I'd be internally monitoring his mood and adjusting my own to it. It was the total opposite of detachment. It's insane behaviour on my part, and it must also have felt like pressure to him.
He said to me - in one of his angry texts over the past couple of days - that he felt things had been really improving and going well over the past couple of weeks before my holiday and during it - that we'd had lots of friendly contact and he felt things were moving in the right direction, and that I'd just gone and blown it all up in his face. Now, an ultimatum was never going to help matters. I know that. But the fact he thinks it was going well and I was gradually getting more and more resentful at stuffing back my feelings on how he was speaking to me and giving him care and attention and consideration he didn't seem to value and wasn't able to return is telling. He was getting what he wanted during those weeks - a free pass to act however he wanted from a wife who was too afraid of his anger to set a boundary and speak up for her own needs. Of course he thought things were going well...
I can't say I can just turn the switch off on that overnight - I don't think I could sit in a room with his misery and anger and validate it then get back to my happier existence without absorbing it. I'm not there yet. Next best thing is to stay away from him so he can't bring me down and I can't replay old habits.
I've heard back from my mortgage broker. I could refinance the house and give H what I consider to be a very fair amount of the equity (though I will seek legal advice on this before making any decisions, of course) without making my mortgage unaffordable to me. This would put the house entirely in my name and give H a lump sum he could feasibly use to buy his own place better suited to having Youngest over, or whatever else he wants to do. If I went ahead with it, he would need to co-operate by signing over the title of the house to me. If he refuses to do that, then my choices are to keep the status quo or set in motion the divorce, during which we'd go to court and eventually a judge would force him to do it, and he'd probably get less from the house than I am currently willing to offer (again, pending me getting legal advice - I went to a solicitor late last year and am acting on the information I got then, but will need to go and update him and check all is present and correct before acting).
The status quo is: H and I do not share any bank accounts and he is not paying me anything towards the mortgage - joint asset - or upkeep of kids (who spend every night with me, and are entirely fed and clothed by me). He's not in any debt and neither am I. We both have savings of our own that the other does not have access to.
I want to say to H something like this:
'I can buy you out of the house and here is what I am offering. If that is not acceptable but you want your share of the house money, then come back to me with an offer by XX. If you want to keep the house as a joint asset, you need to be paying half the mortgage from XX date.'
As for supporting his children - I'd prefer a private arrangement worked out on his salary and the number of nights he has the kids. If he doesn't want to participate in that conversation, I can go through the government agency. I'd prefer not to do that, but I guess I just give him a deadline and if he does nothing before that deadline, go through the agency?
The thing is, I don't think he will be able to afford to pay half the mortgage AND house himself right now. I earn about double what he does. And I predict if I put this to him verbally he will deflect and turn it into another rant about my shortcomings, which I am done with listening to. If I put it in an email he will either ignore it, or give a variety of delaying tactics. The status quo suits him very well but it does not suit me and I want to take healthy action to change it.
I don't feel in danger or that my finances are unsafe. I can afford everything as it stands without him, and I can afford to buy him out. I can afford to go through solicitors if he is difficult. I don't think there's a chance that he'd get himself into crazy debt, but we have no credit cards in joint names and I am pretty sure (though will also check this) if he takes out a loan or credit card in his name, it is nothing to do with me even while we are legally married.
I am not sure what it is reasonable to ask and I am not sure how to ask it. Suggestions? My motivation here is to put an end to the cake eating - he's acting like we're still married and he gets all the benefits of the house, my salary, etc etc and that needs to stop. He doesn't want to live here, which is fine, but he either pays for his asset or signs it over to me. Is that a boundary?
Also, for information: he earns a lot less than me because he was at home with the kids, then doing a long professional course. I will probably always out-earn him due to the nature of our professions. He'd have no case for spousal maintenance now he is working, but even though he has never paid into the mortgage equally with me, legally and morally he'd be entitled to 50% of the equity, though I am offering him less than that considering that I am housing his kids and he isn't.
I am so glad you are not going to continue to his bashing and cruelty. When he starts, remove yourself. He’s out of control now.
Here is my opinion on how to handle this situation. First, you have got to go dark. I rarely see it spoken of anymore, but it’s been pretty key sine I’ve been on these boards for 11 years. Your only communication is about necessary kids topics. You don’t discuss anything personal, relationship wise or otherwise. It’s for you. His counselor talk, you getting a book? All this. He is a big boy, he can do it if he wants. Talk means nothing until there is action. And I think any of this right now is more to say he “tried” everything and it didn’t work, so he could just walk away. He is in no place for marriage counseling and if you were to do that now, it would ruin chances of reconciliation more right now.
As far as the house, say nothing. If you mean this and you are ready to do this , and it isn’t a scare tactic of reality to him, do it right. Sit down with a lawyer and learn what the best options are and do it through the lawyer. You can’t work anything out like this with him right now.
What this marriage needs more than anything now is space. Don’t find reasons to communicate. Don’t talk about anything) unless kids) you live your life, let him sit in his reality and realize you aren’t to blame for all his issues.
It’s you tome, girl, save yourself before the marriage and go into a divorce with a clear mostly detached head when making house dealings.
There's no way at all I can imagine - even in my wildest dreams - him having a civil conversation with me about finances. There is some urgency regarding the mortgage as our deal is up for renewal in the summer. We need to make a joint decision (I can't refinance without him, he can't without me) while we're both on the title and the loan. As there's no real urgency in terms of me being able to afford things - and the longer this goes on for the better financial position I will be in - I don't have to buy him out. But I do have to sort out the deal. I've asked the broker to give me a second set of options for new mortgage deals with us both on the title - though I'd need to know his salary for that and I don't know it (I just sent her an estimation - he earns roughly half of what I do).
I guess if he declines to participate in either me buying him out or us going in on a new deal together (I expect he will do his usual attack / evade) then I will be forced to get solicitors involved - though I can't see even a legally enforced solution to this being something I'd be unhappy with. There's a built-in end date to this as current deal runs out in August.
Alison, first I think you did the right thing standing up to him, now keep standing firm and being consistent.
Originally Posted by AlisonUK
He said to me - in one of his angry texts over the past couple of days - that he felt things had been really improving and going well over the past couple of weeks before my holiday and during it - that we'd had lots of friendly contact and he felt things were moving in the right direction, and that I'd just gone and blown it all up in his face. Now, an ultimatum was never going to help matters. I know that. But the fact he thinks it was going well and I was gradually getting more and more resentful at stuffing back my feelings on how he was speaking to me and giving him care and attention and consideration he didn't seem to value and wasn't able to return is telling.
This is CLASSIC narcissistic control and manipulation. There's a name for it but it escapes me at the moment. Basically telling you that things were going the right direction and if only you hadn't have screwed it up he would have been ready to go all-in again. It's complete bullshit of course, he was no closer to coming back then at any other time since BD. But he's trying to control and manipulate you into not challenging him again by dangling the carrot of hope out there. He's STILL abusing you!
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'I can buy you out of the house and here is what I am offering. If that is not acceptable but you want your share of the house money, then come back to me with an offer by XX. If you want to keep the house as a joint asset, you need to be paying half the mortgage from XX date.'
As for supporting his children - I'd prefer a private arrangement worked out on his salary and the number of nights he has the kids. If he doesn't want to participate in that conversation, I can go through the government agency. I'd prefer not to do that, but I guess I just give him a deadline and if he does nothing before that deadline, go through the agency?
I would be surprised if he agrees to anything or responds at all, but it's not going to hurt anything to put it out there to him. Be prepared for a vitriolic response if you get any at all.
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And I predict if I put this to him verbally he will deflect and turn it into another rant about my shortcomings, which I am done with listening to. If I put it in an email he will either ignore it, or give a variety of delaying tactics.
I think you're right. Just give him a date, ignore any attempts to delay and if he doesn't reply by the date you give him then SAY NO MORE and proceed with legal action.
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I am not sure what it is reasonable to ask and I am not sure how to ask it. Suggestions? My motivation here is to put an end to the cake eating - he's acting like we're still married and he gets all the benefits of the house, my salary, etc etc and that needs to stop. He doesn't want to live here, which is fine, but he either pays for his asset or signs it over to me. Is that a boundary?
I think you're on the right track to protect yourself and help yourself move on. And yes I think it's a whopper of a boundary, and it's a good one as long as you are prepared to proceed legally to enforce it, which I am convinced you are ready for.
Alison: you need to see a solicitor and talk through all these options. Including what to do if he gets all arsey about it. It sounds like you're not in any hurry to actually D, just to sort out the financial side, so if he does choose to go ballistic about this then that is him choosing D instead of R. You can still buy him out of the house and leave the door open to a future R, if you decide that's what you want. But best to get things sorted financially, for sure.
Basically telling you that things were going the right direction and if only you hadn't have screwed it up he would have been ready to go all-in again. It's complete bullshit of course, he was no closer to coming back then at any other time since BD. But he's trying to control and manipulate you into not challenging him again by dangling the carrot of hope out there. He's STILL abusing you!
Yes, I think you're absolutely correct. He's either in a blind panic and pulling out all the stops to get me back in line, or he genuinely thought that the way things were over the past month or so was nice. Well, perhaps it was nice for him. It was not nice for me and that matters more right now. I suspect blind panic is what is happening, which is why I am staying away from him because if I know him like I think I do, it will get worse before it gets better and he realises I am not messing about.
Dilly - yes, I have decided, on balance, to go and see solicitor and discuss options before putting anything to DH. I am secure in the house, secure financially, and there is an option that I can refuse to release any equity at all and get child maintenance from him until the Youngest is 18 - then we'd sell and he'd get a fair proportion of what the house was worth when he stopped paying the mortgage. So even in the worst case scenario - I have to buy him out this year, and he gets 50% - I can financially cope and it's fine. He has no cards to play on this one. But there may be things I haven't foreseen. I have a good pension and he doesn't, after being at home or in education all that time - and I do want to be fair. His being a SAHD counts, and it matters. Will continue gathering information and get a solicitor's appointment asap.
As for divorce. I don't know. I've had a look at the paperwork and i could do it on unreasonable behaviour very easily. If we could sort out house and child-maintenance I imagine it could be over with relatively quickly. More likely he will stall and make things difficult and I don't care so much about it this second as to put myself through that. I am angry with him and I want to protect myself, but I do love him and there is still a bit of me that has hope he will do what it takes. I hope that bit of me dies a death soon, but only time and distance will achieve that.
That part from your H telling you that things had been going well and that if you hadn't done XYZ he;d have come back reminds me a lot of what my H said in our last R conversation. It's just like you told me on my thread, Alison; that you can't win with someone who is not committed to the marriage and doesn't give you the benefit of the doubt.
You sound like you are in a good place, moving forward with tasks that need dealing with to make you feel the way you want to feel in your life. As so many people here have told me, there is no reason you have to figure out if you want to divorce or not in this moment. The other things you are focusing on are big, and important, and enough to think about for right now.
I believe they call what he is doing is gaslighting
Oh yes, he is absolutely gaslighting her and has been for quite some time! I think the term I was looking for (regarding the specific example she mentioned up above) is "love bombing" though, where the narcissist says "Oh things were going so well but now look at what you've done, you ruined it all." Here's a description of love bombing:
"Love bombing is the reinforcement, where the abuser showers the victim with love if the victim acts how they want.
If the victim doesn't, then the devaluation stage happens, where they withdraw all their kindness and instead punish the victim with whatever they feel is appropriate — shouting, giving them the silent treatment, or even physically abusing them."
more from H. So, it's Youngest's birthday in a couple of weeks and he wanted to discuss the party. What usually happens is that we have a small party with his school friends in the garden, and when they leave all our family comes around for a barbecue. He wanted to know if I'd discussed it with Youngest and what the plans were - which is fair enough. And I have, and Youngest wants to have things as usual this year.
I suggested we split it over two days - that the friends party and the family party one after the other had always been quite stressful and busy and a lot of work, and that I wasn't really up to it, and given that things were so fraught and fragile, perhaps making it a bit easier on ourselves would be a good idea. He wasn't happy about that. A rant about how it was about Youngest's needs and not mine, and as I'd not been able to put Youngest first for our whole lives together, I might as well start doing it now, and I clearly just didn't want to see his family because I was embarrassed and ashamed that they knew our problems.
I said it's nothing to do with that, and I told you what it was to do with, and this is my home and I am telling you what I need and what I can do.
It is so exhausting. We can't even have a brief conversation about practical matters to do with Youngest without him bringing the past into it. I have been living like this for a long time. I asked him to cut me some slack, and he said I was in his emotional debt. I said relationships don't work like that and he could either leave the past in the past and concentrate on the present, or sit in the past and his blame on his own, but there was no way I could 'work off' what he saw as my 'debt' by absorbing his poor behaviour any more and I didn't plan to.
It went on like that for a while, then he went. I wish I'd never got into it with him. It was a really really rubbish attempt at going dark. He seems to be able to bring the attacking into any conversation - even the ones that we really have to have, about the kids. It's not unreasonable he wants to know what the plans are for Youngest's birthday and to be involved in them, but the conversation ended up not being about that at all. We weren't raising our voices but it was upsetting and stressful and brought us no nearer to deciding what to do for Youngest. I don't want a packed day where we're both having to fake some friendliness or I'm having to ignore his behaviour so that Youngest doesn't pick up on it. I would like to be able to give Youngest what he wants, but I am not sure either me or his father are in that place yet.
Either way, there will be the children's party and I will decide on the day and send the invitations today. I won't do anything about a family party because I don't want one (I'm not close to my family, so it would just be my in-laws, none of which have made any contact with me since the separation, despite us being reasonably close before) and H can handle that if that is what he wants. I guess I could just leave and let H have that party on his own with his family and the kids, but it's my house and H said I couldn't avoid his family forever, and I suppose he's right. It's not really about that though - I'm perfectly able to be civil for a few hours for the sake of Youngest. It's just I don't trust him not to use it as an opportunity to make me suffer, knowing that I'll just paint on a smile and tolerate it for the sake of Youngest.
Please don’t get into it with him anymore. The second he gets disrespectful, it needs to be over.
Really take my going dark suggestion seriously. Don’t have these conversations verbally. I would be communicating only in email to him . Then you can choose when you are looking at it. So when he goes off in his rants. You don’t have to look at it.
He is very emotionally abuse. And what is this you are in “emotional debt?” What it gods name is that?
You need to avoid the crazy like the plague. Email only and for the kids. And I would tell him exactly why. You need to take a very hard stance now. He is out of control. You probably would have suggested exactly what he wanted and he still would have attacked you. You aren’t going to win with him until he gets his own stuff worked out, so only bare minimum with him. And not in person. If you want I use the phone, fine, because the second he becomes abusive you can say “ I am hanging up, I’m not tolerating this”
I work in a hospital and we recently had some verbal abuse workplace violence issues. We work with patients and their families and families often can cross the line into abuse. We had an in service and learned those lines and what we are are not to tolerate and we should be walking away from. Your ex’s behavior is considered abuse, and it’s something we are never expected to tolerate. We tolerate ALOT at work, but that we are not to.
Yeah, I need to go darker. I don't know if it was abuse - he wasn't calling me names or shouting at me this time. He does like to tell me why I do things, and it's always the worst possible motivation a person might have - and that's because he doesn't trust me. And, frankly, because he clearly doesn't even like me that much.
He's getting the results on his project today. He told me last night if he didn't do as well as he'd hoped, he'd know it was because he had to move out in January. So I have more to look forward to if his performance doesn't satisfy him.
I am going out to spend the money I am saving on council tax this month at the makeup counter. Lipstick will not cure a marriage but I plan to spend that little amount at the makeup counter every single month in honour of his relationship advice and insight (!!!) and in care of myself.
Emotional debt - well, I think he means the years that he was a SAHD while I worked, and absorbed an absolute ton of stress, anxiety and emotional hostage taking from me. I really was awful. I had very severe PND that went untreated (which is not an excuse, but I mention it because I want to be clear that the problem at that time was with me and my health and not with him or the marriage) and a whole heap of childhood trauma problems (I won't get into it, but I had the worst possible time growing up and was in total denial about it until I came into a safe place as an adult - my therapist says that's very common. He was my safe place so he bore the brunt, which was wrong). I have a lot of remorse for what I put him through, but I also know there was no malice in it from me, and that I've taken the steps to do what I need to do to move away from that dynamic. Where we're left is that he wants to forgive me for it but can't, and, I think, he rather likes having a compliant and guilty wife who absorbs his abuse because she thinks he deserves it. Whenever I've asked for affection, attention, support, or just a halt to his poor behaviour or a change in the way he communicates to me, he brings up this 'debt' of mine one way or another.
Well there are always things on both sides of any long term R where one person misbehaves. But you can't move forward with one person not being willing to let go of the past and forgive and look to the future. That's regardless of any abuse. This 'debt' is basically him hanging onto this resentment. You can't make him let go of that, but you won't have a decent M without him letting go of it. His resentment may be valid, but my H also behaved pretty intolerably at times during our M, and I've realised that the only way to R is for me to forgive him for that, understand that (as you said) it wasn't done out of malice and let the past stay in the past.
You can only control your side of this, which right now means protecting yourself from his unacceptable behaviour. Please don't let him blame you for anything work related from him moving out! And maybe it's time to talk to youngest and decide on a different sort of party? If he wants youngest to see his family let him arrange to go to them, you can keep out of it. I agree that for the time being you should keep communication via text or email, it sounds like talking in person or on the phone is just getting him upset and attacking you, not very productive.
Yeah, I agree. I think things have flared up between us because a) he's waiting for these results and knows it is poop or get off the pot time in terms of our relationship - if he has been making excuses, it's all being exposed now and b) he's really angry about the ultimatum I gave him (which is fair enough - it wasn't clever of me). I can agree that his behaviour amounts to low-level verbal and emotional abuse, but I don't think he's a narcissist or anything else incurable. I also don't think I can cure him.
What I need to work on is the part of me that doesn't feel okay unless I have his approval. I know for sure that my wish to do the parties slightly differently is yes - more about my needs than Youngest - but doesn't come from any particular shame around his family or selfishness to the extent that Youngest wouldn't have a nice time and see his family. The fact that H consistently believes the worst about me should be something I can shrug off as just his opinion. I find him thinking badly of me very frightening and threatening and it's why I get into it with him - trying to convince him that he's wrong - which is of course invalidating but also a total and utter waste of time.
He doesn't really reply to texts or emails. I send information sometimes about school trips and we have a shared calendar, but he often spaces on things like that. Then gets annoyed with me about it for not telling him. Again - I need to just shrug off his annoyance rather than seeing it as my problem to solve, and I am not there yet.
I don't know how to work on that. But I am seeing IC today and will bring it up there for discussion. Learning not to care what he thinks of me seems a strange way to repair a marriage. When I am on my own or with friends I feel like I am a flawed but basically okay person who has a lot of kindness and insight and is doing her best most days. When I am with him, quite often I feel like the worst person in the world. I suspect he has a similar experience and a lot of our skirmishes are about getting the other person to think and feel the way we want them to think and feel so that we ourselves feel okay. I wish I could talk about this with him as friends - not in a hectoring way, but just in a 'huh, look at this thing we keep doing, isn't it crazy?' and I miss that part of our connection, which did exist. Ah well.
Makeup counter lady was very persuasive. I am now happily skint for rest of month.
He wasn't happy about that. A rant about how it was about Youngest's needs and not mine, and as I'd not been able to put Youngest first for our whole lives together, I might as well start doing it now, and I clearly just didn't want to see his family because I was embarrassed and ashamed that they knew our problems.
It just never ends, does it? Really sorry you have to deal with this Alison, seems like you can't have the simplest conversation with him without him shaming you, or blaming, or belittling, or in general doing anything he can to bring you down.
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I said it's nothing to do with that, and I told you what it was to do with, and this is my home and I am telling you what I need and what I can do.
Great response!
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I wish I'd never got into it with him.
You really can't win with him. He's an energy vampire, and they don't care whether it's positive or negative energy as long as they get something from you. Here's a blurb from a website about dealing with narcissists:
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There is nothing to be gained from negotiating, collaborating, or even corresponding at all, with an irrational, abusive person, and the sooner a person can embrace this fact, the better equipped she will be to live a happy, drama-free life.
Think about it.
Wouldn’t you rather put that energy into something beautiful, positive, and productive, like spending time with people who see you, listen to you, and respect your boundaries?
So with that in mind, I understand this party is for your S but you should seriously consider not inviting your H. I am dead serious about this, it's time to cut his abusive, pathetic, narcissistic ass our of your life. He wants to have a party with S then that's fine and dandy, he can set up his own separate from yours. Tell him you do not want to hear from him at all unless it's strictly business regarding kid visitation.
Okay. I don't want it to come to that, but if it does, I think it's his choice and a consequence of his behaviour. He won't see it that way, but that's none of my concern.
I am going to leave it where it stands for a few days - I've send the invitations out for the children's party which I am happy to organise and fund and sort out. Youngest is happy. If H wants to invite his family to a home he no longer lives in, he can't really do it without my co-operation and he doesn't have it. I've said what I needed to say and I don't think I need to say it again.
I don't need to be in touch with him again. I am away with work tomorrow and he's taking care of both kids overnight at the house - it's too late to rearrange anything at this short notice, and I can't cancel because it's a really big meeting I'm getting paid a lot of money for. But I can leave the kids alone together for an hour (Eldest is more than old enough to hold the fort and takes care of Youngest for an hour or two regularly and responsibly) and be gone before he arrives to care for them, and I will be arriving home during school hours the day after so there's no need for him to be there and I'll be home when the kids get back from school. No contact from me to him needed about that. He will no doubt have something to say about my leaving Eldest in charge for an hour, but I can delete those text messages unread.
Alison: a relatively responsible 14 year old is perfectly capable of babysitting a small child, even a baby. I left my kids routinely by themselves at that age. If he has a go at you about that then he is just plain spoiling for a fight.
And Eldest is extremely responsible and routinely takes care of Youngest for an hour between tea and bed while I take the dog out. I can cast iron guarantee H will have something to say about it, which is hilarious because we left them together for an hour a week with H's approval and at his suggestion while we went to therapy last summer...
All quiet this evening. Have had a pleasant evening with both kids. Dog made a little error of judgement on one of the sofa cushions and it was such a relief to just sort it out without the huffing and puffing and sulking and blaming and looking to punish and then all the pacifying and cajoling I'd have had to do if H was here. I don't want to demonise the guy, but I still have my heart in my mouth at moments like that, then breathe a sigh of relief when I realise I can handle these little domestic mishaps myself, in good humour, and they really don't matter all that much.
Honestly? You sound scared of him or scared of his anger. I don't know whether you have reason to be, I recognise similar stuff from my H in the past (he went through a phase after he first left of babying the kids and acting like they needed babysitting even way past the age where they were happy to be left alone), but my H no longer acts like that. He wouldn't dare, and I wouldn't tolerate it. Time to put that fear behind you, lovely. I know you're more than capable of being very assertive, you just need to convince yourself of that.
Yes, I am afraid of it. He's been violent that one single time, and never before or afterwards. He's not a shouter. He's more of a withdrawer / sulker. I think my fear is partly to do with how desperate I was for his approval - which is my issue to sort out in IC - and about how miserable the house was when he was in a mood - how snappy and unpleasant he can be when he's not feeling important enough. I do need to work more on that. I am extremely assertive at work, and I can be assertive with him, then live in horrific anxiety afterwards and end up placacting him in order to make sure I still have his approval. It's really messed up and there's a whole heap about that I can change. I lived with an extremely angry, violent, unpredictable and abusive father who was 100% a narcissist. I think I've carried a lot of that into this relationship and there's still work to do on building my sense of self and confidence. Deep down, I don't think the marriage can take me being assertive and having boundaries. But then I guess it isn't a marriage at all.
It must be very, very difficult to untangle your childhood crap from your H crap. I'm sure you'll get there eventually, in the meantime protect yourself.
Just journalling - I want to write down a few things that came up in IC so they're here and I can reflect on them more this week. I told her about my week - the mad ultimatum I gave, H coming back for a couple of days, how angry he is again and what a downturn things have taken, my preparations to buy him out of the house and formalise a divorce, his offer of therapy which is still on the table.
I said that last week, I was convinced the work would be to manage the fact that what I wanted wasn't reasonable, and if I could stop wanting it, I wouldn't be so sad. I left last week's therapy session realising that no, what I wanted was utterly reasonable, and not-having it in a relationship meant it was a relationship I no longer wanted to be in. That scared me, which is where all the ultimatum and divorce stuff comes from. And yet I have not pulled the trigger. I've gathered information and I've gone significantly darker, but I haven't done anything irrevocable yet. I don't want to divorce him just to frighten him. I need to be sure it is what I want. So we talked a lot about what keeps me where I am - what keeps me attached, or married, or not giving up hope.
IC thinks it would be helpful for me to look carefully at what exactly it is keeping me attached to him. Here are the things:
Guilt - I was missing in action for a long time in our marriage, and H was at the mercy of emotions that have nothing to do with him. There's a sense that I deserve this, have brought it on myself, and that I owe him a similar period of standing by in the face of poor behaviour, waiting for the storm to pass.
Hope: The part that thinks 'I owe him' believes that waiting, being patient, giving him love when he isn't being lovable, will be a way to 'wake him up' and bring him back to me - that he's just testing me and soon the test will be over. (I think this, even though I know it wasn't his love that brought me back to myself, but introspection and a long period of therapy).
Approval: The part that's guilty really really needs him to say 'you acted badly but I can see you have a good heart and I still want you' so that I can forgive myself and not feel awful anymore.
Hope: He wasn't always this way - it's new - and I still remember the man I married and the friendship we had, and I still - even in the past couple of days - see little glimpses of that man in some of his interactions with me and the kids (and the dog) and if he changed into who he is today, he can change back, and I don't want to pull the trigger before that happens.
Loneliness: we were each other's 'person'. We're both fairly reserved people and it takes a long time for us to trust and really know someone and let ourselves be known. We did have that - we used to stay up late talking, made each other laugh, turned towards each other and wanted to know and to be known. That was real and it was there for a really long time. I have friends but I don't have that intimacy with anyone else, and I want it in my life, and I want it with him, and I can't imagine ever being reckless enough to have it with anyone else. We chose each other above all others. That's what being married means.
Compassion: My perception that while yes, he's acted disgracefully and and in ways that were totally unacceptable, that isn't who he really is. He's defensive and angry and controlling and manipulative, but I know from my own experience of acting in these ways, which I have, that these are just layers over who he really is, and if I could somehow get past them, then the real him would be in there waiting for me. I've tried everything I can to get past those layers, and the waiting nearby and leaving the door open is the only thing I haven't tried.
Fear. Two things: I'm afraid of what being divorced would be like. Of having to face the fact my marriage failed, we couldn't make it work, and that I am half responsible for that. Of having to face the consequences of all the things I did wrong in my marriage, and all the ways I handled his heart without care. Of what life would be like - Christmas and birthdays and my children's graduations and weddings - of all of those occasions being a fresh wound for the rest of my life.
Second thing: (this one is weird) fear of making him angry. He doesn't want to get divorced. He wants - he says - to go to therapy with me, and whether that's a clean motivation on his part or not, he doesn't want to get divorced. He doesn't want to properly leave our home - all his things are here - and he doesn't want us to think of ourselves as single people. He doesn't want to be married in the way I understand it either, granted - but if I were to pull the trigger I'd be taking away his choice, his safety net, his plan B, and he'd be furious about that and I'm scared. I'm not scared he would be violent towards me and financially I would actually be in a slightly better position - but I am scared of how he'd act towards me in the times we had together - how bitter he'd be, and how what is left of our friendship would be dead.
I'm really glad that you're looking to the future, Dilly. That's something I find so so difficult. Do you have any suggestions for me? I find it very hard to imagine or plan my life these days, and some days it feels totally paralysing (great word, 97Hope). I've alway been a planner and the time that H and I have spent together has been pretty carefully planned. We had joint goals. I think we still do, actually - the things we want for our lives and our family life are the same, as far as I know - we just don't seem to be in the same room as each other right now! It feels like my life's path has entirely disappeared and I'm just sitting here in the day, making sure the kids needs are fulfilled and I do enough work so I don't get in trouble. Most of my time goes into what I'd call 'healing' type activities - walking and resting and seeing friends and taking care of my kids and my house, reading, living quietly, managing my emotions. There's no forward direction or ambition any more.
There's a house that has come up for sale at the top of my street. For a few years now H and I have talked about looking for a slightly bigger house with more living space as the kids have grown and I work at home more and more, but not wanting to move out of our area, which is perfect for us in lots of ways. It's a lovely house. I can see us living there - despite everything I've said about him. It's a pipe dream. Don't worry, I am not going to buy it with him! But it's sad, because we could afford it and we should be jumping at the chance to get it - that was the future we wanted.
I have a promotion opportunity coming up at work and I should be using this quiet time to prepare for it and make an application, but I've done nothing about it and I am stuck. It would be nice to have more money and a slightly different type of work, but it would involve a little more travel. There's the potential, depending on all kinds of things, that I could take the promotion and reduce my hours without having a meaningful impact on my income. But that's the kind of decision a married woman makes after talking to her husband and thinking things through. After making a decision about whether they are going to buy the big house at the top of the road or not. After thinking about where they'd want to be in five year's time, and which secondary school they want to get Youngest into. I can't have conversations with anyone about that kind of thing any more, and the future years have just kind of... dissolved.
I can't even choose bloody garden furniture. It was always the plan to get some new stuff this summer, and I was going to do it on my own last weekend, and I couldn't bring myself to do it - even though I was angry with him and also planning to buy him out of the house. Maybe I need to get the furniture and take some small steps.
Planning for the future: maybe you should just start with the garden furniture? You don't have to make grand plans like moving house right now. You SHOULD go for the promotion though! More money for less work? A no brainer! That's not something you need to discuss with your H, that's something to just do for future you. I get the feeling you are a bit stuck doing all the domestic stuff and caring and living a small life. A new job would give you a bigger life, no? Go for the bigger life.
Plan for the bits of the future which you can control and which don't depend on your H. Make small plans, like your walking holiday. Ask yourself what you would do if you were divorced, and do those things. If you do ever R then he can fit round you or you can both flex round each other, but for now you are single, so act like it in making decisions.
Just journalling - I want to write down a few things that came up in IC so they're here and I can reflect on them more this week. I told her about my week - the mad ultimatum I gave, H coming back for a couple of days, how angry he is again and what a downturn things have taken, my preparations to buy him out of the house and formalise a divorce, his offer of therapy which is still on the table.
I said that last week, I was convinced the work would be to manage the fact that what I wanted wasn't reasonable, and if I could stop wanting it, I wouldn't be so sad. I left last week's therapy session realising that no, what I wanted was utterly reasonable, and not-having it in a relationship meant it was a relationship I no longer wanted to be in. That scared me, which is where all the ultimatum and divorce stuff comes from. And yet I have not pulled the trigger. I've gathered information and I've gone significantly darker, but I haven't done anything irrevocable yet. I don't want to divorce him just to frighten him. I need to be sure it is what I want. So we talked a lot about what keeps me where I am - what keeps me attached, or married, or not giving up hope.
IC thinks it would be helpful for me to look carefully at what exactly it is keeping me attached to him. Here are the things:
Guilt - I was missing in action for a long time in our marriage, and H was at the mercy of emotions that have nothing to do with him. There's a sense that I deserve this, have brought it on myself, and that I owe him a similar period of standing by in the face of poor behaviour, waiting for the storm to pass.
Hope: The part that thinks 'I owe him' believes that waiting, being patient, giving him love when he isn't being lovable, will be a way to 'wake him up' and bring him back to me - that he's just testing me and soon the test will be over. (I think this, even though I know it wasn't his love that brought me back to myself, but introspection and a long period of therapy).
Approval: The part that's guilty really really needs him to say 'you acted badly but I can see you have a good heart and I still want you' so that I can forgive myself and not feel awful anymore.
Hope: He wasn't always this way - it's new - and I still remember the man I married and the friendship we had, and I still - even in the past couple of days - see little glimpses of that man in some of his interactions with me and the kids (and the dog) and if he changed into who he is today, he can change back, and I don't want to pull the trigger before that happens.
Loneliness: we were each other's 'person'. We're both fairly reserved people and it takes a long time for us to trust and really know someone and let ourselves be known. We did have that - we used to stay up late talking, made each other laugh, turned towards each other and wanted to know and to be known. That was real and it was there for a really long time. I have friends but I don't have that intimacy with anyone else, and I want it in my life, and I want it with him, and I can't imagine ever being reckless enough to have it with anyone else. We chose each other above all others. That's what being married means.
Compassion: My perception that while yes, he's acted disgracefully and and in ways that were totally unacceptable, that isn't who he really is. He's defensive and angry and controlling and manipulative, but I know from my own experience of acting in these ways, which I have, that these are just layers over who he really is, and if I could somehow get past them, then the real him would be in there waiting for me. I've tried everything I can to get past those layers, and the waiting nearby and leaving the door open is the only thing I haven't tried.
Fear. Two things: I'm afraid of what being divorced would be like. Of having to face the fact my marriage failed, we couldn't make it work, and that I am half responsible for that. Of having to face the consequences of all the things I did wrong in my marriage, and all the ways I handled his heart without care. Of what life would be like - Christmas and birthdays and my children's graduations and weddings - of all of those occasions being a fresh wound for the rest of my life.
Second thing: (this one is weird) fear of making him angry. He doesn't want to get divorced. He wants - he says - to go to therapy with me, and whether that's a clean motivation on his part or not, he doesn't want to get divorced. He doesn't want to properly leave our home - all his things are here - and he doesn't want us to think of ourselves as single people. He doesn't want to be married in the way I understand it either, granted - but if I were to pull the trigger I'd be taking away his choice, his safety net, his plan B, and he'd be furious about that and I'm scared. I'm not scared he would be violent towards me and financially I would actually be in a slightly better position - but I am scared of how he'd act towards me in the times we had together - how bitter he'd be, and how what is left of our friendship would be dead.
That's a comprehensive list there! Maybe you should look at which of those emotions are useful to you moving forwards and which ones are just unproductive? Guilt: This stuff is in the past. You can learn from the past, but you shouldn't loiter there too long. Self-compassion is key to you letting go of your guilt. Have compassion for yourself, not just your H. Approval: um, my gut feeling is this is unhealthy! Hope: well, you can hope for lots of things but life doesn't turn out how you hope it does. You can hope for a better life without him as much as with him, and that's the only version you have control over... Loneliness: yes, I get this. Your M is a primary attachment bond, and its disruption exposes a lot of abandonment fears. I can't imagine having that bond with anyone else, that's why we stand for so long. But if we do D then we will build that again (well, if we allow ourselves to, I see so many people who have Ded and are so BITTER, they can't move on). I think this loneliness is inevitable. Compassion: again I feel this, like the real H is underneath all this pain somewhere and I would so love him to come out of it and be himself again. He seems so lost Fear: this is understandable. But those weddings and funerals will be few and far between and you would rebuild new traditions eventually. A bunch of people on here have come through relatively unscathed from christenings and mother's days etc, once they are detached they seem ok about it, though it would never be easy. And don't you already feel that guilt and sorrow over your M? I don't feel like that would increase with D, I think eventually you would forgive yourself and move on. Grief seems part of this process no matter whether D or R happens. Fear of his anger: hmm, again, unhealthy Alison! His responses are HIS decision, not yours. If you're ever going to R, you need to get over your fear of his anger. Really, if you D you'll need to as well, because you will be involved with each other's lives because of the kids. So either way, this is something you have to work on.
Yeah - none of it is healthy, really. None of it is stuff to base a marriage on. I think getting it out there where I can see it is only the first step. Will carry on this work with IC. Also the work on making plans for my future. I am sorting out Youngest's party today. Hiring bouncy castle, etc. I will let H know what I have decided and what time it is (the children's party) but that's all. He texted me a link today to an expensive present and asked me what I thought. I said 'I think Youngest would like that,' and just left it at that. I have no idea whether he is telling me about something he plans to buy, or whether he is asking me to buy it, or whether he wants to go halves on it. I will assume he's buying it himself unless he tells me otherwise.
Plans for the future. I definitely need to work on this. I'm in a quiet period at work right now and will be for some time. I will be doing main childcare over the long summer holidays, which is usual and fine and expected. September things will gear up for me again, and be very hectic between October and December. I've been at home a lot concentrating on domestic things, that's true - but there is work I could and should be doing and I'm not. My head feels like cotton wool most days and some days it's only having the dog that means I don't go back to bed after the school run. I don't think I am depressed - I am sleeping and eating okay - but there's a constant sadness that is a heaviness on my body and an internal chattering and preoccupation with my situation that I find very hard to shift. I could make some plans for the summer.
Thats good advice from Dilly so I will only add to it here and there.
I think you have spent too long looking in the mirror. Self reflection can be a powerful tool for becoming a better version of yourself. But look too long and it becomes almost like reverse narcissism. By all means look in the mirror, but don't drown in it.
Also - you offer him much more compassion and forgiveness than you give to yourself.
The sadness you feel is normal. We have all been there. Not the crazy sadness of before, but quieter, sitting in the background, but still known, still infecting everything you touch, think or do. You can't will it away. You can't use logic to think your way through it. All you can do is get up each day and keep going. The sadness will get quieter. You will be able to go an hour, then a day, then a week without bursting into tears. But the only way through it is to go through it.
Make those plans for the summer.
1. Take the kids away somewhere. Center parks is a good option or get a camper van and drive up to cornwall - both good options you could do with the dog. 2. Go away on your own. Google flashpack (who I am going away to Croatia with in August) and tick something off your bucket list or pick something you think will challenge you mentally and physically. It's hard with kids but just tell your H you are going away on your own for a week in the summer and which week would be most convenient for him. If he doesn't tell you give him some options. If he is still an [censored] then try your/his parents.
The second one is important. You deserve an adventure.
It is hard to get out of your own head. But, it is possible. Actions beget thoughts.
I have felt and sometimes still feel every one of those things that you list. I suspect we had a similar marriage. I think we both had co-dependency issues. It happened organically, but if I ever have another R with anyone then it won't be happening.
So what to do?
Nothing
Force / fake the detachment until it becomes the reality. Divorce doesn't force detachment, but time and positive non-action will help.
I am not ready to D either. I would have happily waited until I felt stronger and had grieved enough, but I don't have that luxury.
Use the advice here from FS and Dilly and allow yourself to grow strong. Every day it gets a little bit clearer and a little bit easier.
Hope: He wasn't always this way - it's new - and I still remember the man I married and the friendship we had, and I still - even in the past couple of days - see little glimpses of that man in some of his interactions with me and the kids (and the dog) and if he changed into who he is today, he can change back, and I don't want to pull the trigger before that happens.
Well he can change back, it happens. There was this couple coaching in Retrovaille, the man had multiple affairs, took up heavy drinking, completely alienated himself from their kids and in many ways was one of the more "extreme" LBS's that I've ever heard of. His W meanwhile conducted herself with dignity and respect the entire time and never said a bad word about him. She took the view that he was sick and just needed time to get back to normal. She convinced him to go to Retrovaille and he hated it, after the weekend he went right back to his womanizing and drinking. He finally hit rock bottom (if I recall I think he was driving drunk and had a really bad accident) and started to come out of it. Eventually they went to Retro a second time except that time he went with a humble spirit and willing to participate. They got back together and at the time of our session I think it had been twenty years since that all had happened, and meeting them you would never, ever guess they had that in their history. They just seemed like one of those elderly couples that get along great and are super happy together and always have been.
Anyway it can happen, but unfortunately we don't know IF it will happen, or if it will, WHEN. My XW seems perfectly happy with her new life, she has really embraced it. She delved a little into the girls-gone-wild behavior but it was short-lived and she seems much more like her old self, but content to never be married to me again, LOL! That's what makes this so difficult, what is the "right" decision? You just have to choose, be comfortable with your choice, and never look back.
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Fear. Two things: I'm afraid of what being divorced would be like. Of having to face the fact my marriage failed, we couldn't make it work, and that I am half responsible for that. Of having to face the consequences of all the things I did wrong in my marriage, and all the ways I handled his heart without care. Of what life would be like - Christmas and birthdays and my children's graduations and weddings - of all of those occasions being a fresh wound for the rest of my life.
For a long time after BD and especially after S I felt like a failure. Like I had let my XW down, my kids down, myself down. Now with more years behind me I know I didn't let anyone down. Sure there was room for improvement but I was a pretty darned good husband and father. Whatever happened to my XW, at the end of the day it wasn't my fault. She basically just decided she didn't want to be married anymore, and that is really about all she ever said in way of explanation. I was hiking with my D once and she said something like "dad, you and mom had a really good run together, and raised 3 wonderful kids. You should be proud of that, not many couples today stick together as long as you did." That's actually a great way of looking at it, not as a failure, but as a SUCCESS. 25 very happy years together, raising 3 amazing kids to adulthood, helping each other to two very successful professional careers. So we didn't stick together for life, who says we have to in order to call it a "success"? Are 25 happy years together and an additional 25 miserable years together a "success" whereas 25 happy years together and then 25 happy years apart a "failure"?
I am away with work right now. It's nice to be in a hotel. Their bathroom is cleaner than mine and the hot water is free!
Had a surprising time with H yesterday. He arrived earlier than arranged so caught me as I was getting ready to leave and offered to drive me to the station. I accepted, and we had a bit of a talk in the car. He was very clear and calm and talking about what was going on with him. No back-biting or belittling or jabs at me at all.
He said from his point of view, he'd been there for me through all my bad time, and that even now when things were so awful between us he hoped that I knew he'd be there for me if anything awful happened to me and the kids. I think I do know that - he's behaved appallingly and can be very cruel, but early in our situation - when things were terrible (much worse than they were even in the last week or so between us) someone tried to break into the house and I called him in the early hours of the morning and he scraped the ice off his car in the middle of the night and turned up to check the house and the doors and the garden. He's an acts of service kind of person.
He said over the last six months of this project he had really been struggling and he didn't feel like I was there for him in the same way - that I'd just ran out on him. I just validated. There were a couple of things I could say - like - his behaviour pushes me away rather than wants me to get close, and when I try to be there for him (like making the dinner, and looking after him when he is sick) he is pretty mean about it and doesn't seem to accept it or feel supported or cared for. I could also have said that I don't want a mother to look after me in bad times, but I want a partner who will be there in the good times too. But I STFU and just validated a bit.
He seemed to really want to tell me that, so I just listened then got out at the train station. I didn't feel like he was trying to manipulate me - he didn't ask me to do anything or change my mind about anything - he just seemed to want me to know. I said, 'thank you for telling me, I will think about what you've said really carefully'. And I will - but not right now because I want to work and concentrate on myself for a bit first.
He said 'we don't seem to be able to talk to each other - we need help with that - but in a week or two we will have a counsellor who will help us with this' and I didn't tell him I wouldn't go to counselling with him, I just listened to him some more. He looked pretty awful but he was kind enough to me and it wasn't awful.
I think Fly, you are right, and I look at myself and my own part in this too much, and that too much self reflection can make me a bit crazy and stop me taking action. I am so busy examining our history and my character and motives that I am not taking the action I need to take to set boundaries, move forward, improve my own life. And I need to concentrate on that. I can't imagine counselling being a success if I am still too afraid of his anger to say what I really think, or if I am still so desperate for his forgiveness that I can't draw boundaries and be fully prepared to walk away from a relationship that doesn't meet my needs.
When I get home I am making some GAL plans that will include garden furniture. Small steps.
Good! This process encourages introspection, but at some point you have to stop thinking quite so much and take action. That sounded like a healthy exchange on the way to the station, I hope you can have more of those no matter what happens. My H was also very much like that, accused me of not supporting him but was pushing me away so very hard when I was trying to support him that it was impossible. Well, maybe it wasn't impossible but it felt like it was, I didn't have the tools to do so, and he didn't have the tools to tell me HOW he needed support (if he even knew, I suspect he didn't). It's like the longer you''re together with someone the less you're able to tell them what you need, how ironic.
It was a healthy exchange. I don't think it changes anything substantially, but I've decided if he speaks to me respectfully I will respond and validate - though not seek those conversations out - and otherwise go very dark.
He sent me a text in the morning complaining that Eldest had left the kitchen a mess and that the bathroom was filthy and the house unpleasant to be in (he's right - it's a proper state - I can't be bothered recently and as we're not at the point of health-hazard, I can't care about it too much right now) and I just said 'sounds like you've had a hard morning,' and left it at that. I am not sure that is great validation but I felt criticised about the house and didn't want to get into it with him. He can clean the bathroom himself, or go home and use his own clean bathroom (cleaned by someone else), or STFU.
I got home last night and he was in with the kids. I just came in, dropped my bags then went out again to pick up the dog. He'd left me some tea, which was kind and unexpected. We talked a bit afterwards - he asked me about the promotion plans and I said I was struggling to get motivation for it, and he said he thought that was a change, and perhaps healthy, because I'd been so driven by my demons to over-work and over-achieve that perhaps it was just time to take a breather and enjoy where my life was right now. I said I thought he had a point (he does) and I would probably apply but not get too worked up about it, as I have done in the past. I know I've been unbearable with work pressure sometimes and I don't want that in my life any more.
Today is the very last day of his project. He got the main results yesterday and he did brilliantly. Not as well as he wanted (he's a perfectionist and more critical of himself than he is of others, which is saying something...) but given the circumstances and his obvious depression, it's very impressive. He has about three weeks vacation now and I hope he takes proper advantage of that and does some self care so he can be more present and patient for the kids - he's still pretty 'absent' and wrung out most of the time and I can see him trying, especially with Youngest, but getting irritable with their normal wants and needs and noise.
GAL plans. Am seeing a friend this morning for coffee and a meeting afterwards regarding the promotion - just gathering some information at this stage. Plan to do some housework this afternoon and then take the kids to the seaside for a good runabout tonight. Am in good spirits.
GAL yesterday was good and I felt more motivated than I had in a while to concentrate on my career for a while. We had an arrangement where he'd have Youngest at his house, and I'd drop him after tea, but there was some mix up on either side - he isn't very clear about what he wants verbally, prefers to do it over text, but is sporadic in replying to direct questions about arrangements over text (and never replies to email). So it got to after six and he said it was too late. I said I was willing to drop Youngest at his home, and Youngest wanted to come, but if he thought it was too late I'd tell Youngest he was tired and could he let me know. He kept on trying to start an argument. I ignored and said 'am I dropping him off or not?' and in the end he rang to speak directly to Youngest. I think he was trying to convince Youngest to say he didn't want to go, but Youngest was very keen so in the end I did drop him off. He looked exhausted when I arrived and had been drinking. He wasn't drunk and perfectly able to look after Youngest, but I suspect he wanted a(nother) night to himself and didn't want to come out and say so. I don't know what the assertive thing would have been to do there - I can't really co-parent healthily with him if he's dishonest and plays games about what he does and doesn't want, and tries to manipulate what he wants out of a situation rather than asking for it. But I can also understand that he was very very drained and perhaps not in the headspace to deal with an energetic child at the end of the day. Ah well.
We had another moment like this when I got back from holiday. He was complaining that Youngest was behind on his homework and wasn't doing well enough at her maths (I've actually been to see her teacher about this, because H has been worried about it for a while - and the teacher is very pleased with Youngest's progress and despite being the youngest in the year group, is second in the class at maths). Youngest is a bit behind on maths homework, but not disastrously so. I asked how it had been while I was away - it's sometimes a challenge to get him to do it - and H told me he hadn't asked him to do any. And hadn't asked either child to do the chores that he was so insistent they get assigned during family therapy (I have been great - not perfect, but really great - at sticking to the schedule the therapist suggested and which H agreed on). I just don't get it. I tend not to take these comments too seriously and just listen, given that he's complaining about something that either isn't true, or is in his power to alter. It's probably part of his depression or his negative mindset right now. But then he says he feels unimportant and not listened to when I don't jump to resolve whatever it is he's identified as a problem that day. I don't want to live my life like that any more. But I also want to be kind and respectful to him. It's a head scratcher.
I don't know what my question is. I guess even when he's not being out and out appalling, he's whinging and complaining and manipulative and passive and I don't know how to deal with a person like that with kindness and respect. And I still miss having an actual understanding adult at my side - that's the loneliness I am feeling. I feel it when I am in the room with him and have done for a long time. I feel better when I don't see him much. He is still talking about counselling etc but without that basis of him being able to take responsibility and say what he wants, I don't see what the use of counselling would be.
Today the weather is terrible so GAL plans are going to need to be adjusted a bit. But I am seeing a couple of friends this morning and I think it is time to attack the housework this afternoon while Youngest is with H.
Alison you are dealing with one of the most heartbreaking and sad events in life . You are doing a lot better than you think . For me dbing is focusing on yourself, giving your partner space and time , improving yourself, starting with fresh eyes . I am the worst for this but patience is needed .
Priorities wise , kids first in all situations, yourself next , then husband . Have a read of the success stories and try to get some confidence from reading what worked and how the lbs dealt with things . In the meantime what puts a smile on your face ? What gives you pride and confidence? Go out , have a laugh with your friends, get back to being the Alison that only a fool would leave
I don't know what the assertive thing would have been to do there - I can't really co-parent healthily with him if he's dishonest and plays games about what he does and doesn't want, and tries to manipulate what he wants out of a situation rather than asking for it.
The assertive thing to do was whatever felt right for you at the time and then to stick with it. If I had plans, I would have told my H "I am dropping youngest off at 6:00 as planned". If I did not have plans but wanted the night to myself I would have said "I am dropping youngest off at 6:00 as planned". If I really wasn't that bothered and quite fancied an evening in with my children, I would have said "I don't have plans so am happy to keep them tonight". Be the author of your own story.
Originally Posted by AlisonUK
But I can also understand that he was very very drained and perhaps not in the headspace to deal with an energetic child at the end of the day. Ah well.
Seriously, Alison, [censored] him. This is what it means to be a parent. Rain, hail or shine, we get up off our [censored] and parent our children. I have a tract infection at the moment, am under stupid amounts of pressure at work, and I got myself out of bed this morning to make the kids breakfast and help them get ready for their club. Would I have preferred to stay in bed a little longer, absolutely. But I didn't. I don't expect a medal for this because this is what it means to be a parent.
I will however, be going straight back to bed when I finish this entry as the kids are at their clubs for the next two hours
Can I ask a stupid question ... why do you want to be with a man like this.You deserve so much better. Give him space to become better and carry on with your life in the meantime. You don't need to date. You just need to live.
Yes - the weather is terrible. Housework and cinema for me today.
Can I ask a stupid question ... why do you want to be with a man like this.You deserve so much better. Give him space to become better and carry on with your life in the meantime. You don't need to date. You just need to live.
The short answer is because he wasn't always like this, because I do genuinely think he's depressed and burned out, and because I hope that there's a chance that in time he'll straighten himself out. As he is today, no, I don't want him and I deserve better.
I've had a long day to myself today. Bottomed the house, long walk, coffee with friends and bed early on fresh sheets with a film to watch. I haven't been lonely, and keeping busy has stopped me dwelling on things that aren't in my control or succumbing to self pity. I have made some arrangements for GAL and friends next week, and some work appointments to progress things with my application, and I am hoping for better weather!
I'll be glad to see the kids tomorrow, but it's more appropriate that H has Youngest at his house when he wants to see him rather than here from now on. I suspect not being keen on that - parenting himself, rather than enjoying home comforts while I run around after him and the kids a couple of evenings a week - was behind his reluctance last night. He's not working for the next three weeks or so, so there's no reason why he can't do a fair share of school runs and tea and homework, and do it at his own place rather than coming here, being cooked for and complaining about my parenting and housekeeping. He'll still have all the day while the kids are at school to rest and recovery and please himself. I can't fix him but I don't have to let his misery become mine.
Journalling: H dropped Youngest off this morning - he was distant, no eye contact, that sort of thing. He started talking about arrangements for birthday and the coming week, and I suggested we just do it over text. I'm tired of him using conversations over practicalities as an excuse to get a jab in at me so I'm going to move towards doing it over email / text as much as possible. I didn't invite him into the house but was friendly otherwise. I could just leave the childcare stuff in his hands - but I really want to be able to plan GAL and not have him text me with an hour's notice then get into a snit when it doesn't work for me. More importantly, I think a predictable schedule is better for Youngest. He texted a few hours later saying it was nice weather today so he was going out, but rain the rest of the week so we could make arrangements then (?!). I said, 'I want to know when you will be picking up and taking Youngest to school this week - today if possible,' and he texted me back a couple of days. I suspect he's annoyed he's no longer getting the red-carpet treatment in my home, and that I am expecting him to do equitable childcare now he's finished his project and not working. It's sad, really sad. I feel that going dark this way is necessary for me to have the space to focus properly on myself, and it stops me enabling his lack of care and attention around the kids. I still feel a bit fearful about the consequences of me going dark, but I am doing it anyway, because logically even if it burns bridges between us, the status quo isn't acceptable to me and neither was the marriage as it was. No going back.
The short answer is because he wasn't always like this, because I do genuinely think he's depressed and burned out, and because I hope that there's a chance that in time he'll straighten himself out. As he is today, no, I don't want him and I deserve better.
They all were. If they were all like they are now, then we would not have married them. And that person we married is still there, buried beneath the hurt and the resentment and the anger. But the thing is, only they can find their way out. You can't fix him. You can only fix you. So, sit with his hurt, his anger, and his resentment, but do not let it become a part of you. Understand that, rightly or wrongly, you are the focus of his pain. The more he sees you, the more pain he is in.
Alison, it is not just them in a fog. We too are put there, whether we like it or not. Your last entry suggests you are coming out of yours. Leave him to his. What is important is that you heal and that your children feel loved and secure. That is all that matters right now.
Yorkie is right (isn't she always) - you are doing well.
Thank you. And yes, I do still see him in there sometimes - under all that fog. There are moments, right from the start of our situation and very recently - where I see the good man I know him to be underneath there and we've had a moment of connection. I don't read too much into that. It's possible for him to be a good, decent, kind man, and for him still to decide that marriage to me is not what he wants. At least in that case I hope we'd be able to parent with some kindness towards each other. Apart from those small moments - which are extremely painful to experience, more so than the usual lack of them - he isn't who I know him to be. I think the most loving thing right now is to take good care of myself and my kids and wish him well from afar.
Something I've learned I want to note here: he's depressed about a lot of things that aren't anything to do with me, and often vents about things I consider to be a normal part of adult life and the parenting of children. It's only since I've started trying to validate that, that I've noticed how often in our marriage I made his problems and feelings into my problems to fix, felt criticised or blamed and got defensive. I was thinking about recent text exchange about Eldest, who apparently had left the kitchen in a mess. In the past I'd have responded with something like, 'well what do you expect me to do about it? I'm working - you deal with it,' or 'it's not my fault he doesn't clean up after himself' or something like that. I don't think I saw how invalidating and unsupportive that was, or how much of the burden of his moods and irritations I was eagerly taking on myself, resenting taking on myself, or wasting energy defending myself against. Instead, I just said something like, 'sounds like you had a hard morning,' then left it at that. What Eldest does or doesn't do while his father is in charge isn't my problem or isn't for me to deal with. I consider it to be a minor matter. That felt like a real 180 for me. I don't care whether H notices it or not - that's not the point - I notice it in myself and I feel better and more peaceful for it and it is a lesson I want to keep and take into other relationships. Just because someone lays a problem at my feet, I don't need to pick it up.
Please start a new thread and link both threads together.
Sit quietly, the answers will reveal themselves when you least expect them to. The past is gone, the present is a gift and you need to focus on today, allow the future to reveal itself when it is ready.
I like that about not picking up other people's problems, I suppose that's what validation is about. It's about accepting and understanding someone else's feelings without getting dragged into the middle of it. That does sound painful seeing flashes of the old him occasionally, because it must get your hopes up a bit maybe?
