Believe nothing she says. That includes gentleman (used very loosely) caller. I imagine if I was nailing some dudes wife that I'd coordinate my story with her in case ever confronted.
JayR, have you read DR? Have you done all the reading cadet linked in his initial response?
Let's assume you have. How would you grade yourself in DBing?
M(53), W(54),D(19) M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017 Ring and Piecing since March 2018
Personally, I don't think you "sealed your fate".... it's too early for that. Sure she'll be mad for a long time, but time is what you have.
One of the hardest realizations I had (and didn't want to face) is the sheer amount of time this is going to take. It seems like ours sitch's started about the same time, so we're in the same boat.
Absolutely no less than a year, and most likely 2-5 years and then cleanup. That's a long ways to go. She's out of her mind.... let her soak in it.
There's another bitter pill... in your earlier post you couldn't see how she could have an OM...... I'm sure this was eye opening to you. My eyes have been opened as well.
One of things we always say is that if you catch a cheater they will rarely stop cheating, but just take their cheating even deeper underground.
I'd believe him as far as I could throw him. You believe him because you want to believe him.
100%..... you have to let it run it's course, or it will be worse.
Never confront. Ignore. If it comes into the house you're living in (not the guest house) then it's boundary time, and if it's broken..... leave or make her leave (her leave is better).
My wife is definitely not out partying or dating or trying to reclaim her youth in those ways.
Just b/c she is not out partying or dating, doesn't mean she's not wayward. Your W is wayward. Imaginary affairs, whether with a real life person or a fictional character, are serious. And yes, you are her number one enemy. You just haven't realized it, b/c when she's eating cake, she's a happy camper.......and you mistake it for having enjoying one another or her kindness. About 12 years ago, I was a wayward W. If you had known me, you would have thought I was the last person on earth who would be wayward, but that's b/c you may not be familiar with that type of mindset and how a woman gets to that place. If you want to read more about the WW mindset, you can read the first thread under Cadet's homework. Look for Help for LBH's who have a WW.
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The problem I have (well, at least one of them) is that when all hell broke loose last night, and she kicked us both out and demanded we leave, she soon came rushing out of the door and went to him as he was getting into his car. She pleaded with him not to throw away 40 years of friendship. I walked up and said I noted how she’d run to him and his car instead of to her f*@%king husband, and the other guy agreed with me and told her so. I texted her soon after that that moment told me all I needed to know about where her heart truly is.
Shocking, isn't it? She's not the girl you married. She has changed, and she'll probably change even more. Those 20 yrs you said she spoke negatively about? That was 20 yrs of resentment, which led to her feeling disrespect for you as a man, and especially as her H. As a woman, she was designed where her loving feelings for her H is measured by her level of respect for him. She feels depressed and is seeking greener pastures b/c she feels you completely let her down and caused all her unhappiness. She wants to experience the single life, date & sleep with other men (or OM). She will show loyalty, concern, desire, etc. to this other guy......or some new guy, before the man she's been married to for 20 yrs. Her mindset is all about her and what benefits HER the most. She's selfish and her heart can be as cold as an ice burg. She has, and will, deceive you. The more you try to convince her to give the MR another chance, the less she will want it. The more you prove your availability, the less she will desire you as her H. She's happy to have you as her BFF, but forget her desiring you as a lover. If that's fine with you......then continue what you've been doing. If that's not what you want, then prepare to do the opposite of what your heart may be dictating at the current time.
Your M can be saved, but first you need to understand that everything she sees in you must be through the lens of respect. She doesn't have to like what you do. In fact, I can about promise you that she won't, initially anyway. You don't need to be her buddy. You don't need to be her unpaid employee. She is not that special, and you don't need to cater to her, or accommodate her. That's not your job. She's fired you as her H, so keep that in mind. Start being your own boss and making decisions that work for you, instead of trying to please your WW who doesn't respect you. This gal has been stringing you along, and she'll continue if you allow it.
Currently, you may feel as if you no longer want to save the M. However, most men find themselves desperate to keep their WW from divorcing them. She can easily smell that desperation, and it will push her further away, b/c it's not attractive. Become the man you respect, first of all. Then consider what a W might respect. I have been shocked to discover how many men are so far removed from the truth. That's why I'm here........to tell you the truth about women. I'll tell you what your W would not share.
Can your M be saved? I think so, else I wouldn't waste my time trying to inform you about DBing a WW. My M was saved, and I owe so much to the DB board and the mentors I had back then. I stuck around just so I might help someone like you. So, I hope you'll come here every day and post. Do not let her find your posts on this site. Don't share what you read here. The advice you read on the board is just for you, and not to repeat to her.....unless we specifically tell you to say it. Repeating something you've read, thinking it will impress her or make her think about what she's doing.......will not work. You can't say anything to shock her out of this behavior or mindset. Only actions count with her.
BTW, I strongly suggest you not make any moves without first running it by the board, and giving it a couple of days to think over......especially until you get DB under your belt.
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
You mentioned that in your case that it was a couple years before you took notice of your H, and "snapped back" because he was going to give up on you for real.... and you went to God for help. Does that mean he was telling you "no" for those years and you had to progress until you reached a point where you cared about that? And because you reached that point, then cared about losing him? Or was it cake eating and later on he toughened up and you noticed? Just curious about how much development has to occur in the WW for them to be able to care.
True?
I'm also curious if you H was praying for you the entire time. If he was, do you think that was a major factor in you seeking God and turning back? I ask that because it seems like most WW's will not approach God AT ALL. My MIL ran away 30 years ago and STILL won't step foot in church, hates religion and is very weird when it comes to the topic of God. I'm wondering if intercessory prayer is a big factor no one is talking about.
1. God's and our time is not the same. I don't think he was saying no, but she had to come to the right place mentally herself.
2. God never violates free-will. That's why I never advocate praying to make someone's spouse do something. Like come back, etc. God let's us choose for ourselves.
M(53), W(54),D(19) M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017 Ring and Piecing since March 2018
1. God's and our time is not the same. I don't think he was saying no, but she had to come to the right place mentally herself.
2. God never violates free-will. That's why I never advocate praying to make someone's spouse do something. Like come back, etc. God let's us choose for ourselves.
Right, that's what I was trying to say. She had to be somewhere first (late late replay stage???)..... so the takeaway to me is, at the beginning it doesn't matter what the LBS does, they can't attract the W no matter what. It has to be near the end of replay at the earliest for an LBS to have any effect. The danger being if you're too ugly and communication is cut off near the beginning, they will never see what changes are made and that you're attractive now (near the end of Replay). You end the game early before you've played your hand. That's a bad move (IMO). You have to be nice and communicative... and be 100% consistent on changes (and do them for yourself, not her). To me that means a year at least before you have any hope of her noticing ANYTHING. Would that be correct?
Yes free-will is the choice of the MLC/WW..... but what I was getting at is, God doesn't make choices for you but he does influence and allow people to see/understand (and often puts just the right person in the mix to influence someone for good). That is sooooo powerful. I'd be very curious if many of the ones who did make it back.... was their H standing in the gap for them and praying continually for their W (and I don't mean "God please have her come back"..... I mean, "God I love my W... please help her. I want her to be happy no matter what. More than anything, please draw her back to you"). That's what I'm talking about. I also believe God doesn't like D, and will do anything he can to help prevent it and heal the two people. Sometimes that means MR, sometimes the people are too damaged and the adulterer will suffer the consequences for the rest of their life (I've seen it). Vows are not something to mess around with. A heart's yearnings to return home, realization of losing their one true love, or something else.... placed by God is a powerful motivation. People CAN still choose to not obey, that's free-will. But I don't think God is a silent witness to the tragedy by any means.
Sandi2 - Thanks so much for your comments - extremely helpful.
I am re-reading the LBH threads and going back to the DR book. I need to detach big time and stop engaging with my WW about our relationship. She raises it whenever we're together, which is often due to kids' stuff, and I can't seem to walk away. I always engage in explaining, trying to show her I understand her, trying to look for any words of hope, etc. I can see that this is NOT working, and in fact, sets me back.
After the blow up on Thursday night, she stayed in bed crying most of the next day. She was absolutely miserable because the fantasy she's been having came to an abrupt end. The other guy wants nothing to do with her, and is horrified by her emails I forwarded to him. He thinks she is absolutely crazy and needs mental help. I know others on the thread are convinced this is a real PA, but I know it is fantasy and not just because I want to believe that. In the end, I don't think it really matters. I need to ignore it either way and not confront her about anything else or ask her questions about who she's with, etc. I need to completely detach.
She came to me yesterday to say that I had no business confronting her or the other guy on Thursday because we are separated, and she was very open that she wanted to be independent and not inform me of who she's with or what she's doing. She's also very upset that I forwarded her private emails between her and her therapist to the guy. She deleted all of those emails weeks ago, so now I have the only copies, and she is demanding that I send them all to her, so she can see what I have on her. She is very worried that I will send them to others, especially her family, and they are highly embarrassing to her. She also wants to know what I've said to the other guy, since she claims I'm trying to convince him that she's crazy. I told her I'm not going to talk to the guy anymore and have no interest in him. I also eventually told her that I will send her her emails, since they are her private correspondence, and that I won't forward them to anyone else. I'm doing this to be done thinking about any of this and to be detached from what she does. I realize that my keeping her emails or trying to use them as leverage is only an attempt to control her, which I don't want to do.
She also told me yesterday that since she knows the idea of her dating others or having other relationships while we're separated is hard on me, she will agree not to do that. She says she really wants to work on herself and has no interest in dating, etc. anyway. She also says she wants nothing to do with the other guy anymore, says she hates him, and he won't talk to her anyway because he thinks she's crazy and doesn't want to be a distraction to her. He is extremely averse to drama of any kind, so I do believe he has run for the hills now that everything has come out.
She finally has been saying that she is looking for a reason to stay in the M. She feels she can't leave because it will be too hard on the kids and will not end our problems, but she also can't stay because I don't ever really listen to her or accept her needs as valid. She is citing the fact that I haven't yet sent her her emails as an example of how I try to control her and won't hear that she is saying she needs those back because they are private and important to her. She also says that she feels so violated and humiliated because I sent the emails, and it scares her that I don't seem to understand that or feel empathy for what I've done.
After reading the LBH threads again, I am convinced that I need to seriously disengage and, frankly, avoid her and any relationship discussions of any kind. I need to not spend any time alone with her and only address kids' details and practicalities. Otherwise, I need to do what I want to do in my life and spend time with my kids. Whenever we get together to discuss kids, we end up having a good time, going out to dinner, sometimes having sex, sometimes talking about our relationship, etc., but that just leads to more and more of the same. Eventually, I feel hurt and like I have no control. I also feel that her lack of respect for me will only grow if she feels she can keep me around in this way by dangling some hope in front of me every now and then. It will be hard - and will feel very unnatural - not to engage, but I will keep at it.
Any words of advice or encouragement are appreciated, as always.
You mentioned that in your case that it was a couple years before you took notice of your H, and "snapped back" because he was going to give up on you for real
Maybe you misunderstood how I said something, so let me try to do a better job at explaining. I was never concerned about my H giving up on me, okay? That's not how a WW thinks. I never worried he would leave me. I think that's something in the mentality of those who turn out to be LBS's and those who are WS's, but I have no written statics or proof......just observation. I'm not saying it's in every case, but I see it show up a lot on the board.
It took years of resentment and increasing feelings of disrespect before I actually crossed the line to have an affair. The woman has a wayward mindset before she ever dabbles in an A or inappropriate behavior. (I explain this mindset in the first thread of my WW series.) So anyway, I felt dead inside, except for the pain. To shorten the story, I began withdrawing more & more, and eventually, I had an EA or Internet A. He was not local. I was not "shocked back" like LBS's seem to think of it happening. It was more like a couple of weeks of a slow build up of things.......that led up to the final biggie. However, what many LBH's don't understand when using this description of "shocked awake" or "snapped back" is that it isn't that simple. I didn't "snap back" and then everything was lovely from that point.
I had secretly been planning to move out and get an apartment, and OM was going to pay for it. Actually, he wanted me to just pack my bags and move to his place. Thankfully, I started seeing little cracks in the OM's armor. Just little ones that maybe a younger woman might have given no concern.
The shocker had nothing to do with my H. Although he had confronted me, he was like a lot of H's I find on the board who have no plan of action beyond the confrontation. I simply went deeper underground with my A. And, saw no action from my H. My plan was to tell my adult children that their father and I were having M problems, to prepare them for the S I intended. The Shock that blew me away, came from my daughter, when she cut through all the b.s. I was giving her, and told me she knew OM and called him by name. She had found about the A on our home computer, and read our IM's........everything. I was horrified, b/c that meant the rest of my family knew. So, I'd say that experience devastated my original plans how to introduce OM to my family.......as if everything was so innocent . This post is getting long and I have not even begun to answer your question. I'll try to shorten it. My D's confrontation with me, did get my eyes opened to reality, and I experienced a loss that nobody understands how precious it was to me (b/c each person has that one special loss). I knew they would never look at me in the way they previously saw me. (Another long story I won't get into). Now all they saw was a big hypocrite. All the things I had taught about God, and living the Christian life, etc........was destroyed, and I had nobody to blame but myself. This one could not be pinned on my H's back.
So, yes, I had the shock and the loss at the same time, and yes it opened my eyes to see reality. If you call that experience as "snapped back", then I guess on some level... maybe. I came to my senses. But I think we give to much credit to the "fog", and LBS's think once the fog is gone, their spouse will back to their old selves. It's not that way with wayward spouses. There is too much they have to process in order to get back to the person they once were. For one thing, their feelings are a total mess. I mean, she loved her H, then didn't love him. She thought she loved the OM, and then had to dump those feelings. So, no, she doesn't "snap" back to necessarily being the loving W she once was. If anything, she thinks her last chance for happiness is gone. So guys, I'm saying don't expect to see her gushing with excitement and happiness.
Look, the LBH does most of his internal work after he receives his shock......which is the bomb. So, consider the WW has her own internal work after her shock, awakening, or whatever you want to label it. Trust me, she can stop the wayward actions much easier than controlling and retraining her wayward mindset. Someone mentioned it as almost a spiritual experience/journey......and for me, it was. She's got a lot of work to do on that mindset of hers. She has to overcome her stubborn pride, and all that gunk she saved up through the MR, and her so-called justification that drove her rebellion. Some women can work much faster than others, but I am actually suspicious when a LBH declares that his WW snapped back to her old self. It's not that easy.
She can end her affair, be completely transparent with her H, go to MC, and whatever is necessary to heal and save the MR. It's a process, and I think it takes a little time for her to fall back in love with her H again. She can make decisions to do the right thing, even if her feelings don't exactly match the action at the time. She can choose to show respectful behavior toward her H. She may not feel all those things at first, but if she will cut all contact with her AP and get him out of her head, and forgive her H for stuff in the past...... then her feelings will eventually match her actions. I did end my EA, and cut all contact. My mistake was fantasizing about OM. I would go to sleep thinking of OM.
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.... and you went to God for help. Does that mean he was telling you "no" for those years and you had to progress until you reached a point where you cared about that? And because you reached that point, then cared about losing him? Or was it cake eating and later on he toughened up and you noticed? Just curious about how much development has to occur in the WW for them to be able to care.
Big question, and as you get to know me, you'll learn I use too many words to answer.
Someone mentioned how it sounds like a spiritual journey for the WW to get back. For me, it had to be a spiritual journey, b/c of how I believe the scripture. I mean, yes I backslid, but I still believed the Word of God. I had neglected what the scriptures teach wives to do......which is to respect their H. I had broken my vows. I couldn't get my life right, much less my M right, until I got myself right with God. So, I confessed the whole thing about my A, and asked for God's forgiveness. Okay......no big earthquake or shaking of the bed where I laid. I claimed I John 1:9, but I didn't feel remorse for how I had treated my H. I knew I was wrong, and confessed it........but I didn't feel anything. I decided I was use to relying on my emotions too much, and this was about having the faith to believe God's forgiven me.
Well, things got a little better but it bugged me that I did not feel remorse for how I treated my H. The feelings in my heart simply did not warm up. I was choosing to show respectful behavior, but my heart was still cold. I knew I still had years of resentment and disrespect for him as a man/husband. Furthermore, I knew God saw that poison in my heart..... and nothing was going to get better until it started with a deep cleaning. I was going to have to get real with God and go deep this time......b/c I had let it ride for a long time. I actually prayed that God would give me feelings of remorse for what I had done to my H and our M. Funny how things suddenly become obvious when you get real with God about your sins (all of them) and earnestly seek His help. And, listen, I asked in reverential fear of what it might take in order for me to feel remorse.
One night, while getting real with God, I had to admit that I still fantasized about the OM. I knew it was wrong. And, duh........I realized my feelings for my H would never change as long as I was keeping the affair alive in my head. Even though I had cut all contact with OM......I was still feeding my addiction via fantasizing. And, let me tell ya........that is hard to kick! Anyway....moving right along here, let's get to the good part. One night when I was still talking to God about how I had no desire for my H, and I had stopped fantasizing about OM.......but I still felt no remorse. All I felt was a bit ball of hard resentment of things in the past. It was like a cancer eating away my life. Then, call it God, or whatever, the question came. "Can you forgive him?" "Can you really forgive him for all those things and let go of the past?" Then suddenly I felt as if I lay there with nothing but a sheet of hypocrisy wrapped around my body. Who was I to resent my H for being a young, tender, too gentle, a bit immature, and suffering through experiences I had not yet had, and not having any more education about women, than I had about men?,...........etc., etc. The list seemed endless. But it always ended with the same three words....... Who was I? Indeed! I don't know how long I laid there while memories flashed through my mind. Nothing he had done compared to how I had hurt him. Nothing! He had even told me he forgave me. So if he could forgive me of a greater offense, who was I to withhold forgiveness of a lesser offense. (See the spiritual picture?) Finally, I said...... "Yes, Lord, I forgive him for everything. I will no longer blame him. Then it was if the Hoover Dam broke, and remorse flooded throughout my being. For the first time since he had confronted me about my A, I could humbly apologize to my H.
The almost two-year period began when I made the decision to do the right thing which was end my A......to when I finally gave all my resentment and bad feelings for my H to God. After the night I felt humility and told my H how sorry I was.......then I could put effort into the MR, and the good feelings caught up to match the actions. The reason it took nearly two years was b/c of my stubborn pride.
I never felt as if I was losing my H, b/c he never did any actions that told me so. If I had, then this post would have been much shorter. (lol) This is one of the reasons I am here, telling you H's about the WW. She should worry she's going to lose him! But how can she when he chases after her and telling her how much he wants the M to work?
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I'm also curious if you H was praying for you the entire time. If he was, do you think that was a major factor in you seeking God and turning back? I ask that because it seems like most WW's will not approach God AT ALL. My MIL ran away 30 years ago and STILL won't step foot in church, hates religion and is very weird when it comes to the topic of God. I'm wondering if intercessory prayer is a big factor no one is talking about.
Oh absolutely! My H is a strong Christian. And, I understand what you are saying about how a lot of WW's wouldn't approach God at all, or they hate religion, etc. I'm just sharing my experience. Family and religion are extremely influential in our lives. I try not to force my particular religious beliefs down anyone throats here. Cause, I might not want to hear someone talking about their preferred religion. To answer your other question, I do believe in intercessory prayer. I am quick to add that I don't believe God is going to force an individual to do something against their own volition. However, I have seen some pretty amazing things happen as a result of intercessory prayer.
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
I'll tell you what your W would not share.