No more letters. That BS only works in the movies. If you really can't take the limbo anymore then set up the MC appointment and see where you stand.
Take some time and read JRUSS's story it has a lot of similarities to your story.
Before D I thought the same that I would live in an apartment and it would look like $hit because my ex did all the decorating and inside cleaning. It turns out I kept the house and made it better. Her sister was just in town and visited and said omg this room you redid looks amazing. My daughter and I are currently redoing her room together.
90% of your fears will not come true and I'll say it again being divorced is 1,000 better then how you feel right now. Do you see my signature? That's the mindset you will develop in time. It's a long hard road but a trip worth traveling.
Originally I was convinced it was all my fault. I was raised by a narcissistic father and unfortunately modeled some of his traits. But with time and space I can see now we were both to blame. Neither of us had the proper tools or role models to navigate a successful relationship. It's a shame because we both still have so many things in common. I truly believe that every marriage goes through rough patches and the ones where the people came from healthy families who knew how to communicate their needs and differences make it and the ones that didn't do not. Or people just stay unhappily married out of fear. Great marriages take a lot of work.
I know it doesn't feel like it but you will survive this and most likely thrive.
I highly doubt we can survive D without selling this house. I don't like to project too far into the future, but that is the reality. We stretched ourselves thin to buy this house 2 years ago, knowing full well the first year we would be in the red on cash-flow. Now we are probably even.
There's the weird piece about my W going back to work here. Right now she is FT SAHM. But she has the capability of earning money, either PT or FT, and I imagine that would be accounted for should we go to trial. Long-term if I make X and she makes Y, I am working off the assumption we each should be getting (X+Y)/2 especially if custody is 50/50.
There is a scenario where my W decides to keep the house and works her tail off to maximize Y so she can afford it. Also I am aware that this is going to be a pain because her income will ramp up each year so we'll have to go back to the courts every year to readjust. It will have to be based off tax returns. It will be a huge pain and I will probably end up getting the short end of the stick for awhile as a result.
It's pretty simple math though. If X is just enough to pay for a house, then for (X+Y)/2 to work, W would need to make Y. Which is impossible. She could liquidate some assets and maybe swing it. I don't know.
I guess the point is... there is no way that I am going to keep this house. Nor would I really want to, quite honestly. It's big, isolated, will require a lot of maintenance over the years. Beautiful home, but I'd almost rather have a home in a neighborhood where we can walk to parks and shops and interact more with other people. I'd rather not have a big maintenance project. The problem is where I live... with (X+Y)/2 income, that will basically be a condo or apartment for awhile. It is just reality.
Re: Fears
Your quote really does resonate with me. I know D would not be so bad. I'm sitting here at home (alone) this morning thinking about my plans to GAL, do some housework, and it feels so low pressure. I like it. W sent me a text and I'm ignoring it, not to be a jerk, just b/c I don't feel like I need to respond. I feel detached, I feel good. I know sometimes in the next 2 hours I will probably swing into a low funk, feel like I'm having a low grade panic attack, and I'll breathe through that and then pick myself up again.
Re: Fault
I hear you on the fault thing. I was raised by a moody mother (essentially BPD) and a non-emotional father. I learned how to cater to my mother's moods and try to keep the peace. I learned how to be a Nice Guy. I learned how to avoid conflict. I learned how to doubt my instincts. I learned how to make my W my emotional center. I never learned how to set healthy boundaries. When we moved up here, I let my distress about my W being depressed or upset get the better of me. I pleaded with her to just tell me everything was okay. I drove her away. Some of these episodes bordered on, or even crossed over into, emotional abuse. No name calling and yelling, but still EA. I played the victim. I worried CONSTANTLY about my W's happiness. I rushed home from work. I asked her "Are you okay?" constantly, to her annoyance. Her anger scared me and drove me away to give her space.
My parents decided to cut off communication about 3 years ago. I should have taken the first step quite honestly. I was relieved. It was a huge issue in our M - every time we interacted with them there was conflict and hurt. Recently they have tried to reach out to contact me. But with no apologies, no remorse. I have gone NC with them except when necessary to exchange information (for reasons I won't get into). My position is that I will not engage in any future R with them until they show a willingness to change. I will not expose my kids to this unhealthiness. Getting over the guilt here was a HUGE undertaking for me, years of IC. But I am there. W resents me for it. We even talked about it a few weeks ago, and I told her, If they don't show a commitment to change, such as going to therapy on their own, I will not entertain a future R with them. She was silent, probably wondering if I was just telling her what she wanted to hear. I don't really care, it is my truth. In the past, I would have probably asked W "What would you do?" I'm acting on my own at this point. Maybe she was testing me, wondering if post-D I will reinitiate contact. I don't know. It will be 100% my say at that point.
It's easy to fall into 2 traps when thinking about what happened to our M. First, I could blame my W. I could say, you are controlling. You controlled our sex life and cut it off. We have no affection. You are angry and won't talk to me. You have avoided MC to work through our issues. You are secretive and planning your way out. You don't let me in. I can never do enough around the house to keep you happy. I can never do enough with my work schedule to keep you happy. You don't get along with your mom, but you never realized how you patterned your parenting after hers... you poured everything into your R with your kids, and left your H feeling abandoned, stranded.
Or, I could blame myself. My NGS drove you away. I more or less molded you to be controlling. I let fear drive my decisions. I patterned my behavior just like when I was a child, and you had no choice but to take ownership of the kids and the house. And I became like my dad, FT worker. Different from my dad in the sense that I engage with my kids way more. And different in the sense that I pushed for a closer R with my W. But still, letting W run the show.
But the healthy way to look at this (I think) is: We both brought our issues into this M. Our love for each other was strong enough to get through most episodes. Then we had 3 kids, and we moved, and had a huge life disruption. And we were no longer equipped to handle this. Other couples, healthier couples, or couples with different issues, could have worked through it. We could not. We failed at MC the first time. W seems to have given up. I am willing to go ahead with MC2. I don't think it would be easy work, but I don't want to give up. I'd like one more shot. W seems to have already made up her mind though, and I can't change that, and the shame of it all is depressing. The shame of splitting our family apart, rather than fighting to make it work.
LH you said it perfectly in your post, and I'm basically repeating what you said here just with a lot more words.
OK I need to stop doing THIS, and start GAL'ing for the day....
Thanks for pointing me to JRuss's story. I read through a majority of the posts.
Like most forum visitors, I come here and read other stories and try to fit them to my own story. When I find similarities that give me strength and positivity ("that couple with similarly aged kids recon'd!!"), I identify and empathize with the story. When I find differences ("that couple didn't work out, but their kids were 1 year age different from mine, so my story can be different!!") I also do the same. It is a dangerous practice.
JRuss's story did strike quite a nerve. Many similarities (not all). Perhaps what resonated most was how long he held out hope, how long he DB'ed, how there was a last glimmer of hope with W going to MC only to recognize quickly it was a checkbox situation. And then, just a few months later, how much happier and confident JRuss's posts sounded.
JRuss, if your read this, I would love to hear your input on my sitch.
The last 24 hours, a heavy reality is setting in for me. How many stories have I read here which actually involve reconciliation? Maybe 1-2%? And of those 2%, the sitches seem completely different from mine. Thread upon thread of hopeful newcomers coming in, only to face D down the road regardless. Many if not most people are stronger from coming here, some are not.
There is realistically nothing about my sitch that suggests recon is even a remote possibility. My W has established a consistent pattern of distance punctuated with sporadic bouts of anger and resentment, going on 6 months at least. I don't initiate R talk anymore - I feel like I made it clear in my letters that I want to reconcile, and she has ignored me 100%. I can (and will) continue to work on myself - PMA, GAL, NGS, validate, set boundaries, 180s, focus on my kids - but I need to be honest at this point. There is ZERO chance of this coming back. All of those things I do need to be for me and my kids now, nothing more. I'm not saying this from a depressed hopeless mindset. I'm saying this from a "time to look at reality square the face" mindset. There's just no realistic chance of recon. And I also need to get out of the mindset that there is just some magic thing I need to be doing, and I can't figure it out, and I will regret it the rest of my life if I don't keep trying to find that magic thing. Because that mindset is pointing me towards a dark place.
I know I will vacillate more when W and kids return home. I'll see hopeful signs. We'll share a drink and have a good conversation and laugh a bit. But it will mean nothing. It will mean nothing to her, other than that we will be able to remain friends and co-parent and that is a good thing in her mind (and I guess mine as well).
When I do have these periods of thinking my M is already 6 feet under, I feel relief. It feels like I can stop feeling broken - I can work on myself intensely, but I don't need to focus so heavily that I start to burn out. I'm a good person, I'm valuable, I will find love in this world, and I will look back on this period of my life and be thankful that it made me stronger. I know this to be true. I may look back and wonder why I put up with this treatment. I may wonder if I was unhappy long before I even realized it also. It will be hard to let go. She is still beautiful to me. She is still the woman of my dreams, but I need to step back and analyze why I think that. Am I getting my needs met in this M?
The process has started. The pedestal is crumbling.
I'm trying also to avoid perfectionist thinking. There is no "perfect" DB-ing. I have a job, 3 kids, and frankly I'm burning out from all the attempts to better myself. I need to just live sometimes. Like so many here, I want so badly to save my M, but at what cost to my happiness? Is this even healthy?
I'd like to throw out a dare to the forum to end this post: Tell me about a sitch similar to mine (or JRuss's) where the couple reconciled. And if so, what are the primary reasons that sitch ended in reconciliation rather than D?
You have a lot to deal with, and I wont get into that, as I am on my phone. However I read your thoughts request regarding reconcilated stories with similiarities to your own.
Its pretty simple, and really its what most people have a hard time grasping: It is not at all about specific sitches that are salvable. It all comes down to one thing. The WAW/WW needs to WANT to reconcile. Everything you do is to strengthen yourself, and find the resolve to rise, and live, love and laugh on your own. That is not case specific, that is moving on and healing, and that is the essence really.
It just so happens, that a produkt of this process occasionally is, that the waw/WW has a change of heart.
BD: Wife says "its over" 11th august 2018. EA: June 2018 PA: August 2018 - ongoing Status: Taking turns 7 days a week to be in the house w. kids WW: no regrets, seems happy with leaving.
Its pretty simple, and really its what most people have a hard time grasping: It is not at all about specific sitches that are salvable. It all comes down to one thing. The WAW/WW needs to WANT to reconcile. Everything you do is to strengthen yourself, and find the resolve to rise, and live, love and laugh on your own. That is not case specific, that is moving on and healing, and that is the essence really.
It just so happens, that a produkt of this process occasionally is, that the waw/WW has a change of heart.
Thanks Hurt. I know this in my brain and in my heart, but I cannot let go.
I see DB-ing as having 3 parts:
1. Work on yourself. Use this upheaval in your life to motivate you to change for the better.
2. It is possible (although unlikely) as a byproduct of DB-ing that your WAS may have a change of heart.
3. Successful DB-ing requires focusing on #1 (self) and ignoring and forgetting #2 (WAS).
Following #3 to the letter of the law is virtually impossible.
Maybe I've just been thrown for a loop by what happened a week ago in my sitch. My W had such a strong, angry reaction that I couldn't help but wonder if it indicated there was still some feeling there. I can't figure it out. Mostly I think the anger is her fuel driving her towards D, and I should think nothing of it. But I also think... anger is better than apathy.
It was bizarre to me...Receiving angry texts about "my distance" from a W who has completely taken affection off the table (no ILY's, only hugs, sleep in same bed but don't even go to bed at the same time) and doesn't seem to want to spend any time together except talking at night about the kids or otherwise "safe" topics (friends and family, no R talk). Do I maintain the distance at risk of furthering her anger? Do I tentatively come closer and risk becoming vulnerable again? I don't know. I snuck in a "Miss you all" text this week to W and kids and I'm over-thinking it. Was that a mistake? What is her anger really about? What is lurking there under the surface? Should I even care what W thinks? She mentioned not understanding me, and hopefully we could talk soon. Should I press? Should I even sit around waiting for her to initiate this talk? Or should I assume she was in a highly emotional state, regrets wanting to talk, and will never bring it up again? Arghhhh....
I know I shouldn't worry so much about WAS. We live together. I cannot avoid getting reactions sometimes from her. And periodically I do get very strong reactions and I can't help but wonder... What was that all about? What is lurking under the surface that triggered this anger? Is that a clue? Does that lead me towards a potential 180 that would be helpful - not a magic key, but just something I could improve on that I am unaware of? Is my W telling me something about myself that I need for my self-improvement? Does she even want me to be closer, or is she just venting her anger and blaming me?
^^^^ See how easily I violated #3?! Fortunately I have let go of that impulse to initiate and R talk, or write another letter, but I am having difficulty balancing the PMA vibe "Hi, it's your H, hope you're having a great time with the kids!" and the detached vibe "I'm cool chilling by myself, contact me when you want." It all feels fake.
Ok I'm posting a lot this weekend, this is what happens when home alone. Probably should be doing more DB stuff...
I did get out of the house for some GAL activities today and exercised. Later I was in the grocery store trying to consciously stay in the present moment, lost touch when I passed the flower section and thought about how in the past I would have bought some flowers for my W upon returning home. The sadness permeates.
Deep thoughts
You can probably tell in my rambling posts that I am really struggling with whether I should have any hope at all of my M remaining intact. Because if not, I need to work on moving on fully.
I keep hoping for posters to come in and provide some flicker of hope to tell me otherwise.
First I will explain why I feel my sitch is dire, and second I will explain where I am going with this:
First:
I was listening to a podcast today touching upon toxic situations. Certain conditions apply: persistent anger and resentment, feeling like you're walking on eggshells, the situation affecting all facets of your life negatively (work, sleep, etc.). There were more and I don't remember them all.
My situation is clearly toxic. It checks all the boxes. With more skillful coping mechanisms, I would be able to work out of the last piece (all facets of your life), which is more or less "don't fall into a deep depression." But the others are basically unresolvable.
This is the essence of DB. This sitch is toxic. I have ZERO control over my W, her moods, her outlook, what she wants out of life. She has shown ZERO interest in talking about our sitch, trying to work on things, talking about the future, nothing.
Now:
My W *may* initiate some R talk this week. She will likely back out or just have forgotten, but there was some indication last week that she wanted to discuss "my distance." I need to be prepared. To be clear, I will not initiate.
If I am correct here, the advice would be to avoid this R talk at all costs. Do not jump into an R talk assuming you can just validate. You will quickly be put on the defensive. Let me know if I misunderstand.
Example:
W (angrily): "I wanted to talk about last week. You didn't write me letter, you didn't want to give me a hug, you've been super distant for 2 weeks." U: "I can understand how you were upset about not receiving a letter." W: "Well... why didn't you write one?" U: *** tongue tripping ***
The bigger knot I am untangling is... should I really be avoiding this particular R talk? W has not initiated any serious talk in months. I don't see myself having many opportunities here.
I can deflect and avoid this talk and just keep doing my DB work. Or I can treat this as an opportunity to feel out my W's position, since she offers such little feedback otherwise.
Up front I would establish a boundary that I will walk away from any conversation that becomes heated or angry.
Gitch'er 2x4s ready...
What Do I Have To Lose
- I will cycle hard if hit with the official BD. (Although I think this will happen regardless of timeline). - It may accelerate the D timeline, which goes against DB principles. - I may not be ready for some of the things she says. - W may become more emotionally unstable which would further challenge my sitch.
What Do I Have To Gain
- W initiated an R talk for first time in months. R's cannot last without basic communication. - Opportunity to state my position, for the record, in person:
1. We are disconnected, and have been for many months. I want to reconnect. 2. I want our M to work, and I want to do my part. 3. I want to go to MC if we both have the goal of working on the M.
- Clarity on my sitch. W could obfuscate, but even that would tell me something. - F2F communication about something actually important for the first time since probably January.
I look at these lists and think I have more to Gain than I do to Lose.
DB principles state to not initiate R talks but if she does just listen and validate. Don't get defensive and try state your case. Just validate her feelings. If she bombs you just say " I understand that you feel that way. I don't want a divorce but I won't stand in your way". Then get out of the house and cry, scream, break stuff whatever you have to do.
I feel for you man but I promise you right now you are in the eye of the hurricane. The storm will break and the sun will come out again.
I am fully prepared to do just that for a BD situation.
I am thinking more how to handle it if she approaches me for some R talk but does not BD. I feel like this would be a rare (only?) opportunity to at least talk a bit about the past 5 months. My W has shown zero willingness to R talk for months.
I understand my sitch is toxic and basically a sure-fire bet to end in D. She seems 100% committed to D, and any pleasantness between us is likely due to her wanting to co-parent amicably.
But if there is any chance to reduce the toxicity, I'd like to at least try.
I'm truly curious why she was so angry about me being distant. Most likely it's a way for her to further justify in her head that she needs out. But it could also be an opportunity for me to be clear what I want, without getting overly emotional (which might be one of her fears, and thus a 180 opportunity). I could just say, flat-out, I feel like we are drifting apart so far that our M is in peril, and I want to reconnect because I love her and want this to work.
Conventional wisdom would suggest that when the LBS starts GAL and sticking to boundaries, it provokes anger, resentment, etc etc. The picture that the WAS/WS has created about the LBS starts getting chipped at and it brings a range of emotions. Things like 'why now?' amongst others.
I use my words carefully and hence I said 'suggest'. You don't truly know what's bringing these emotions out of her and as I said earlier, try not to speculate. It will drive you up the wall as you won't find the answer. Curiosity about their behaviour easily turns into trying to mindread and going down tunnels. I know it's hard not to do it, but that's why GAL and doing things for yourself are important right now. Keeps the focus on YOU.
Maika - Thank you. I agree I need to focus on myself. For now, meditation and exercise help the most, as they are simple doable daily tasks, and I really need to focus on pulling myself together each day. Also stopping my thought process when I start ruminating. Hobbies are a bit secondary as I can't do them every day.
You are right that I am guilty of speculating and mind reading. It is an unhealthy habit that I need to check.
But if W does initiate an R talk, am I wrong that it could be a tunnel with some cheese? I only say that because we haven't explored that tunnel in several months.
