Married couple from Scandinavia

[BenB]

What was that "small thing" you fought about on your return?

We had decided to stop eating anything with sugar in it. When I came home, I found something with high sugar content in it in the fridge so I thought it would be funny and said "aha, what´s this". She took it seriously and said "so? I´ve lost weight and that´s what matters". I should have just said I´m sorry,, that I didn´t mean in that way but I said it in an annoyed way. "I was just joking!" I said loud and clearly irritated.

Then things were quiet for a minute before we started talking about something else but I could tell she was more serious rest of the evening. Feels like it was from then on things went downhill although I´m sure that was just one tiny detail in the bigger picture.

[BenB]

Hi BenB,

First of all I’m sorry you are here but this is the best place you can be right now. DnJ has summed up an MLCer to a tee in his posts to you.

He’s also giving you the best advice possible. It’s valuable advice and free of charge. Please listen to everything he advises you to do. It’s going to be long and tough, but you will get through this.

You have been given the gift of time. I used this time to discover the woman I am, not the wife/mother/Grandmother I had become.

I wouldn’t change what was the worst couple of years of my life, because I found me and learned to like and love me, which I didn’t before.

I never thought I’d be saying that when I first started this journey.

Thank you Westo!

[BenB]

BenB,

You have been given excellent advice by all of the posters.

Your wife may not be having a physical affair, but she could very well be having an emotional one. Someone may have crossed her path and paid her a compliment or spoke to her and she opened up to them about the fact that you travel quite a bit and she's lonely when you are gone. If she is in crisis, she is "ripe" for an affair and you can't rule it out, i.e., especially the way that she is behaving.

As for moving out...sounds to me that she's been thinking about it for a while. She needs to understand that if she wants to move out, she needs employment so that she can pay her own living expenses. If you want to gift her the money for the first month/last month's rent, then do so w/the understanding that you will not pay for her living expenses once she's out of the house. Any "heavy lifting" for the move should be done by her. She needs to experience the loss of her former life and what she can expect in the days ahead if she should go through the exercise of moving.

Has your wife every lived on her own before?

Don't be too hasty in jumping through hoops to keep her happy. When people do this, we call it pretzeling. If she's unhappy w/you or something else and you get a list of those things that make her unhappy, you then attempt to fix them. Once they are fixed, she'll come up with something else. She's just very unhappy w/life right now and until she realizes that happiness comes from within, she'll continue to search and experiment w/all sorts of things. As each experiment becomes dull and boring, she'll toss it aside, just like a child w/a toy that no longer interests them.

For now, keep the focus on you. Find things to GAL and do them. Go out once in a while for a coffee or something else, i.e., be a bit mysterious and if she sees that you are happy and doing things w/o her, she might become curious.

Detachment takes time, but it will come when you truly focus on yourself. You will need to dig deeper for patience and when you sit quietly, the answers will come. Do not be too hasty in suggesting a divorce...unless you are ready to cut all ties and have met someone and want to move on w/your life. Try to remember, you didn't break her, therefore you can't fix her. She has to do the work to fix herself.

I understand. I think she could be open to an affair but I doubt she is having one since I don´t know how she would have time to do so. I would have assumed she would be on her phone a lot and hiding it from me which she isn´t. Again, I could be wrong but I don´t see those signs.yet.

To clarify, she does have a job she really likes. She likes her co workers and all but it doesn´t pay enough for her to move out. Where we live it is next to impossible to find a rental apartment and she couldn´t afford to buy one either. So her only choice is to move back to her home country with her parents. She has a lot of debt from when she was burned out after her previous job so she is paying that off for the next couple of years. As you notice, I don´t pay her debts or anything like that for her. I am generous but not that generous. Before she met me, she lived on her own for 7 years.

Thank you for the advice. I won´t ask for a divorce at the moment. I will wait and see how things progress

[BenB]

BenB,

You have been given excellent advice by all of the posters.

Your wife may not be having a physical affair, but she could very well be having an emotional one. Someone may have crossed her path and paid her a compliment or spoke to her and she opened up to them about the fact that you travel quite a bit and she's lonely when you are gone. If she is in crisis, she is "ripe" for an affair and you can't rule it out, i.e., especially the way that she is behaving.

As for moving out...sounds to me that she's been thinking about it for a while. She needs to understand that if she wants to move out, she needs employment so that she can pay her own living expenses. If you want to gift her the money for the first month/last month's rent, then do so w/the understanding that you will not pay for her living expenses once she's out of the house. Any "heavy lifting" for the move should be done by her. She needs to experience the loss of her former life and what she can expect in the days ahead if she should go through the exercise of moving.

Has your wife every lived on her own before?

Don't be too hasty in jumping through hoops to keep her happy. When people do this, we call it pretzeling. If she's unhappy w/you or something else and you get a list of those things that make her unhappy, you then attempt to fix them. Once they are fixed, she'll come up with something else. She's just very unhappy w/life right now and until she realizes that happiness comes from within, she'll continue to search and experiment w/all sorts of things. As each experiment becomes dull and boring, she'll toss it aside, just like a child w/a toy that no longer interests them.

For now, keep the focus on you. Find things to GAL and do them. Go out once in a while for a coffee or something else, i.e., be a bit mysterious and if she sees that you are happy and doing things w/o her, she might become curious.

Detachment takes time, but it will come when you truly focus on yourself. You will need to dig deeper for patience and when you sit quietly, the answers will come. Do not be too hasty in suggesting a divorce...unless you are ready to cut all ties and have met someone and want to move on w/your life. Try to remember, you didn't break her, therefore you can't fix her. She has to do the work to fix herself.

I understand. I think she could be open to an affair but I doubt she is having one since I don´t know how she would have time to do so. I would have assumed she would be on her phone a lot and hiding it from me which she isn´t. Again, I could be wrong but I don´t see those signs.yet.

To clarify, she does have a job she really likes. She likes her co workers and all but it doesn´t pay enough for her to move out. Where we live it is next to impossible to find a rental apartment and she couldn´t afford to buy one either. So her only choice is to move back to her home country with her parents. She has a lot of debt from when she was burned out after her previous job so she is paying that off for the next couple of years. As you notice, I don´t pay her debts or anything like that for her. I am generous but not that generous. Before she met me, she lived on her own for 7 years.

Thank you for the advice. I won´t ask for a divorce at the moment. I will wait and see how things progress

Oh and need to add, she mostly traveled with me for my business trips until this started.

[kml]

She has a lot of debt from when she was burned out after her previous job so she is paying that off for the next couple of years.

Say what???? Do you mean she had a job, got burned out so quit and just lived off of credit cards for so long that it will take her two years to pay it off? Or she had a good job, got burned out so took a low paying less stressful job, but didn't adjust her expenditures so she ran up a boatload of debt? Or she got burned out on her job so she became a shopaholic in order to deal with her emotions?

None of these three explanations are signs of someone who is a good bet for a marriage partner.

As for the fight about the sugar - a couple possible ways that could have set this off (although, it's also possible that her irritability was a symptom of her crisis and not related to the actual discussion):

One, she could feel that you were controlling/criticizing her if it was your idea to give up sugar. Are you critical of her weight? Are you often pushing her to live a more healthy lifestyle? It could be viewed as a really big intrusion into her privacy and autonomy over her own body and she may have taken your "joke" seriously if you have this history.

Two, if it wasn't your idea to give up sugar but hers, and if you're not critical of her weight - do you think she could have an eating disorder? Someone with an eating disorder, confronted with the idea of getting pregnant, could go into a panic because of the prospect of weight gain with pregnancy.

[BenB]

She has a lot of debt from when she was burned out after her previous job so she is paying that off for the next couple of years.

Say what???? Do you mean she had a job, got burned out so quit and just lived off of credit cards for so long that it will take her two years to pay it off? Or she had a good job, got burned out so took a low paying less stressful job, but didn't adjust her expenditures so she ran up a boatload of debt? Or she got burned out on her job so she became a shopaholic in order to deal with her emotions?

None of these three explanations are signs of someone who is a good bet for a marriage partner.

As for the fight about the sugar - a couple possible ways that could have set this off (although, it's also possible that her irritability was a symptom of her crisis and not related to the actual discussion):

One, she could feel that you were controlling/criticizing her if it was your idea to give up sugar. Are you critical of her weight? Are you often pushing her to live a more healthy lifestyle? It could be viewed as a really big intrusion into her privacy and autonomy over her own body and she may have taken your "joke" seriously if you have this history.

Two, if it wasn't your idea to give up sugar but hers, and if you're not critical of her weight - do you think she could have an eating disorder? Someone with an eating disorder, confronted with the idea of getting pregnant, could go into a panic because of the prospect of weight gain with pregnancy.

She had a job that was pushing her to her limits. She basically had what they call good girl syndrome, taking in so much that she crumbled under the pressure. Her work took that very seriously and she was on sick leave for almost a year. During the worst period she spent a lot on her credit card. This is also very common during burn outs. The therapist basically ordered her to rest, meditate and make no plans until she feels better. She was very depressed during this period and I took it seriously as well. Made sure I was as supportive as I could be until she got better again.

When she was well enough, she slowly went back to work, just one day at a time to begin with which is also standard here. But in the end, it was that job and the stressful environment there that was too much, not just for her but everyone there would quit after a few years. Once her credit cards were maxed out and the therapist helped her, we cut the cards and she started down payments. She was then offered another job, which paid a bit more and was nowhere near as stressful. She loves that job now.

You may think that way but this was my best friend, someone who has supported me and helped me become the person I am. The love we had for each other was the kind I only thought existed in movies right until the crisis began. No chance I would dump her or consider not marrying her because she collected debt during her burnout.

Regarding the sugar, no - we both had enough and had been eating so much sugar so she was the one who said let's cut out sugar completely. We had done that before but this time we really decide to go all in. I would never criticize her for her looks. She is a knock out, a perfect 10 IMO. No, she doesn't have an eating disorder. It's just a part of that first conversation we had where she felt I was negative towards other people. I think she felt I was being negative here as well. But we haven't talked about the sugar comment incident at all since it happened. Crisis would probably have happened either way

[BenB]

The past few days have been the same. We don´t argue, I spend as much time with my friends and family as possible and she spends time with her friends. We still sleep on the same bed every night but no physical contact.

Today she suggested going to see a movie together so we did. Our relationship is almost the same as before except there is no affection. Another significant difference is that 80% of our conversations in the past used to be about upcoming fun plans we had like travels or restaurants. Now that we can´t plan things for the future we have don´t really have as much to talk about(not that I initiate conversations anyway). We watch a lot of Tv shows together in the evenings, just like we´ve always done. While we watch, our behaviour is the same as it´s always been. We laugh or make fun what we see together. Our humor is still the same.

I don´t know what is right here. She has mentioned to the therapist a few times that she wants to get out of this bubble and was hoping that by moving out, she might have a reality check and experience how it is to live alone. But like DnJ mentioned, what if tha fuels her fantasy life instead of her missing us.

For months now, I have been giving her space, don´t initiate any conversations, work out and focus on myself. Really all I can do. Last week her sister visited us and we started talking about our situation. Her sister asked and my wife had no problems talking about it. To my surprise, she knows a lot about MLC now. She seems to have googled information and says she thinks this is MLC but she doesn´t know how to stop it. Is that normal?

We have the next MC 5 days from now. They also have a weekend therapy session where we would need to travel to another city. Would it be bad if I suggested trying that? Not sure how she would respond to it. There wouldn´t be any other couples there, just us. And there´s not much difference. Just longer sessions over 2 days instead of just 90 minutes a week.

[BenB]

This is so difficult but not for the reasons I thought. On one hand, I want to listen to DnJ and others here and not give up so I can still be around if she ever comes out of this.

Like Amy C wrote, we are the only ones who hold the truth to our real lives and if we´re not there when they come out of it...

But on the other hand, I don´t want to set myself up to be a plan B. Feels like a fine line between the two.

[DnJ]

Hello Ben

Last week her sister visited us and we started talking about our situation. Her sister asked and my wife had no problems talking about it. To my surprise, she knows a lot about MLC now. She seems to have googled information and says she thinks this is MLC but she doesn´t know how to stop it. Is that normal?

Normal.

Hmmm. What is normal?

I am surprised as well that your W has googled and found MLC, and thinks she is going through it. That is not the typical running that most MLCers exhibit.

If you recall:

To me it doesn’t look like, or feel like, a full blown midlife crisis. She is in some form of emotional turmoil, but far short of the inescapable irrationally driving need to destroy her life to get away. Well, at the moment.

Age 34 is rather young to have the pressure of mortality and life pressing down upon one to the breaking point. It is not unheard of to happen so young, just rare. Perhaps a more quarter life crisis is at play. This is more of a transition from 30’s to 40’s, the entering of one’s midlife.

No doubt your wife is having some second thoughts, feelings, desires, and such. The “having a baby”, the growing up required to face that, could stir up suppressed feelings and past unresolved events; which she needs to face and work through.

I do hope she is suffering more a transition than a crisis. However, that is beyond your control. Either of those paths are her’s and she requires the space and time to travel them. It is possible she is just entering the starting of MLC, the stage that we usually don’t see, the triggering part of all this.

Is she just in emotional turmoil?

Is she still pre bomb drop? And the true MLC is coming?

Or something else?

Ben, time will tell.

Let’s look at this by exploring an answer to your question.

We have the next MC 5 days from now. They also have a weekend therapy session where we would need to travel to another city. Would it be bad if I suggested trying that? Not sure how she would respond to it. There wouldn´t be any other couples there, just us. And there´s not much difference. Just longer sessions over 2 days instead of just 90 minutes a week.

You have only been at this DB for a few weeks. On Feb 23, you asked her and she told you about how she was feeling confused - a mini bomb drop.

Mid April you stumbled upon MLC and started wondering about this. May 5 was your first posting.

MC seems to be something she looks forward to. It seems to be helping, or she is just hiding her plans. For what it’s worth I think she is getting value out of the MC.

Would it be bad if you suggested a weekend therapy session?

It would be best if she suggested it.

However, a few observations to consider.

She is in some obvious emotional turmoil. She sees herself in MLC - that is a very big thing. Might not be a “true” full blown MLC - but it could be in her perception. So the very least she is having some emotional distress and she knows about it.

She needs time and space - not couples therapy. She needs therapy for herself. That doesn’t mean professional, I just mean self reflection, confiding, discussing, etc... That probably is not with you. An actual IC would be a good thing, if she wants to go. Again, no pressure.

You have been giving her time and space. She is showing positive signs. Do not get your expectations up, keep them at zero. Realize you may be overlooking some negative signs.

Her positive signs are encouraging. I know you two are living more like room mates right now, that’s ok. Her progress is small and in a good direction, so keep doing what you are doing.

These weekend sessions happen frequently, I am guessing on that but pretty sure. So, you need not push for this weekend or even the next. You have lots of time. This is not going to resolve quickly, do not push it. Let her set the pace.

Ben, to me, she is looking to see if you will accept her and what she is going through. She confided about MLC. She still watches TV with you, laughs, enjoys your company and humour. She is emotional confused and needs to figure it out. And wants to figure it out, that is really good.

She has mentioned to the therapist a few times that she wants to get out of this bubble and was hoping that by moving out, she might have a reality check and experience how it is to live alone.

I have an employee who became distant, angry, lost, and scared - he is a confident big guy so this was really strange for him and me.

Only a few months ago, he came to me, and confided about the problems he was having. Him and his wife had their first child 8 months ago. He was so panicked about this new life he was responsible for. Everything started unraveling for him...everything. Stories about his past, about a fire, about demons and family events from his youth - it was such a thing to witness. He knew something was wrong, he knew he wanted it to be different, he just didn’t know how. His solutions were becoming rather singular and involved him not being able to live like this, moving out was an idea. We talked a lot, he listened, and he got help in the form of IC. He had lost all confidence at work and at home; he had to go off work for six weeks, then back on light duties. He is back fully now and much better.

Your wife is looking for trust, understanding, and compassion. She hasn’t spun completely off the rails. She might, but at this moment she hasn’t. She needs and wants to figure herself out. She is walking her path. Keep supporting her.

Like my employee, your W might not need to follow through with her ideas of moving out if she can sort things out while at home.

So, would it be bad if you suggested weekend therapy?

Maybe, I don’t think she is ready for that yet. Focus on you. Let her set the pace she is comfortable with.

Ben, she is confused and still finding herself and not committed to the M. Therefore she is not fully in the M. That is how you need to approach this, and you are doing well. Continue to GAL, be a little mysterious, be friendly, talk, and accept being roommates for now.

Remember before you were married - dating. Her asking you to go to a movie (yesterday). That is a good thing. Go have fun with her. Go have fun without her.

Focus on you. Give this some time and see what happens.

DnJ

[BenB]

Hello Ben

Last week her sister visited us and we started talking about our situation. Her sister asked and my wife had no problems talking about it. To my surprise, she knows a lot about MLC now. She seems to have googled information and says she thinks this is MLC but she doesn´t know how to stop it. Is that normal?

Normal.

Hmmm. What is normal?

I am surprised as well that your W has googled and found MLC, and thinks she is going through it. That is not the typical running that most MLCers exhibit.

If you recall:

To me it doesn’t look like, or feel like, a full blown midlife crisis. She is in some form of emotional turmoil, but far short of the inescapable irrationally driving need to destroy her life to get away. Well, at the moment.

Age 34 is rather young to have the pressure of mortality and life pressing down upon one to the breaking point. It is not unheard of to happen so young, just rare. Perhaps a more quarter life crisis is at play. This is more of a transition from 30’s to 40’s, the entering of one’s midlife.

No doubt your wife is having some second thoughts, feelings, desires, and such. The “having a baby”, the growing up required to face that, could stir up suppressed feelings and past unresolved events; which she needs to face and work through.

I do hope she is suffering more a transition than a crisis. However, that is beyond your control. Either of those paths are her’s and she requires the space and time to travel them. It is possible she is just entering the starting of MLC, the stage that we usually don’t see, the triggering part of all this.

Is she just in emotional turmoil?

Is she still pre bomb drop? And the true MLC is coming?

Or something else?

Ben, time will tell.

Let’s look at this by exploring an answer to your question.

We have the next MC 5 days from now. They also have a weekend therapy session where we would need to travel to another city. Would it be bad if I suggested trying that? Not sure how she would respond to it. There wouldn´t be any other couples there, just us. And there´s not much difference. Just longer sessions over 2 days instead of just 90 minutes a week.

You have only been at this DB for a few weeks. On Feb 23, you asked her and she told you about how she was feeling confused - a mini bomb drop.

Mid April you stumbled upon MLC and started wondering about this. May 5 was your first posting.

MC seems to be something she looks forward to. It seems to be helping, or she is just hiding her plans. For what it’s worth I think she is getting value out of the MC.

Would it be bad if you suggested a weekend therapy session?

It would be best if she suggested it.

However, a few observations to consider.

She is in some obvious emotional turmoil. She sees herself in MLC - that is a very big thing. Might not be a “true” full blown MLC - but it could be in her perception. So the very least she is having some emotional distress and she knows about it.

She needs time and space - not couples therapy. She needs therapy for herself. That doesn’t mean professional, I just mean self reflection, confiding, discussing, etc... That probably is not with you. An actual IC would be a good thing, if she wants to go. Again, no pressure.

You have been giving her time and space. She is showing positive signs. Do not get your expectations up, keep them at zero. Realize you may be overlooking some negative signs.

Her positive signs are encouraging. I know you two are living more like room mates right now, that’s ok. Her progress is small and in a good direction, so keep doing what you are doing.

These weekend sessions happen frequently, I am guessing on that but pretty sure. So, you need not push for this weekend or even the next. You have lots of time. This is not going to resolve quickly, do not push it. Let her set the pace.

Ben, to me, she is looking to see if you will accept her and what she is going through. She confided about MLC. She still watches TV with you, laughs, enjoys your company and humour. She is emotional confused and needs to figure it out. And wants to figure it out, that is really good.

She has mentioned to the therapist a few times that she wants to get out of this bubble and was hoping that by moving out, she might have a reality check and experience how it is to live alone.

I have an employee who became distant, angry, lost, and scared - he is a confident big guy so this was really strange for him and me.

Only a few months ago, he came to me, and confided about the problems he was having. Him and his wife had their first child 8 months ago. He was so panicked about this new life he was responsible for. Everything started unraveling for him...everything. Stories about his past, about a fire, about demons and family events from his youth - it was such a thing to witness. He knew something was wrong, he knew he wanted it to be different, he just didn’t know how. His solutions were becoming rather singular and involved him not being able to live like this, moving out was an idea. We talked a lot, he listened, and he got help in the form of IC. He had lost all confidence at work and at home; he had to go off work for six weeks, then back on light duties. He is back fully now and much better.

Your wife is looking for trust, understanding, and compassion. She hasn’t spun completely off the rails. She might, but at this moment she hasn’t. She needs and wants to figure herself out. She is walking her path. Keep supporting her.

Like my employee, your W might not need to follow through with her ideas of moving out if she can sort things out while at home.

So, would it be bad if you suggested weekend therapy?

Maybe, I don’t think she is ready for that yet. Focus on you. Let her set the pace she is comfortable with.

Ben, she is confused and still finding herself and not committed to the M. Therefore she is not fully in the M. That is how you need to approach this, and you are doing well. Continue to GAL, be a little mysterious, be friendly, talk, and accept being roommates for now.

Remember before you were married - dating. Her asking you to go to a movie (yesterday). That is a good thing. Go have fun with her. Go have fun without her.

Focus on you. Give this some time and see what happens.

DnJ

Thank you DnJ,

My W and I had IC with our MC a few days ago. She went in first and after that it was my turn. During my session I told the therpaist that my emotions are up and down but not as much as before. And that I still wonder about her deleting our wedding photos on Instagram, or archiving to use the correct word. This makes me wonder if there has been any communication with other men either via instagram DM or Facebook messenger. I explain to him how I´ve been trying to detach and not think about that as I will never know but the thoughts pop back up in my head every now and then. Also, as far as my W can tell, I haven´t reached out to her at all for a while now. No conversations initiated, no hugs, nothing.

But he now suggest that on our next MC session together, I should ask her what is on my mind. So basically, why did she delete our photos and has she had any commincation online with other men. This goes against everything I have learned since I came to this forum so I don´t feel comfortable doing that but he says he will set it up so that I can ask the question in a good way. I´m really unsure about that as that would be the first time she would see any sign of jealousy from me. My W does not see me as a jealous person.

What are you thoughts on that? Next session is on Thursday evening.