Been decreasing stuff on DB forums for a while. My story so far below: -
Received the ‘I need space’, ILYBIANILWY, ‘not attracted to you in that way anymore’ BD back in Feb. I responded in the typical (bad) plea, beg, cry type of way I know wasn’t good. I also responded with some validatory parts about my part in helping let the R get into the state it had. Our marriage (10) had been going through the motions for some time with a lot of a Groundhog Dayness to it. We have S18 who I adopted when 7 and met when he was 2 (there is no contact with bio D). We also have D9.
I agreed to give her space by moving to my dad’s, friends and then to a nearby flat where I am now. She basically said if I didn’t, she would and she would take the kids with her.
W has been on SSRI meds for ~4 years but has always suffered from depression. These have, imv affected her zest for life / sex drive and her character itself and recently, after her grandmothers death she increased the meds up to the max dosage. It seems possible to me that W44 is Mac.
At the time, I felt it was the right decision to move out if I wanted to save my marriage and to give W time and space to sort through her issues and concentrate on healing and exploring her underlying issues. I now regret the decision as I should have stayed and let he decide whether she wanted to follow through on her obvious threat. The Mr Nice Guy won as he usually does.
I have been trying to concentrate on myself and my own issues since moving out - working out, GALing and detaching and things have been getting easier, more relaxed, less anxious more positive about myself.
W has gone much more distant and seemingly unhappy in the last month or so. She was originally keen for us to meet and spend time for the two of us and together as a family but this seems to have gone. She isn’t keeping up with the housework and has put on weight.
A couple of days ago I came across papers from her lawyer about a meeting they had around the ins and outs of D.
I am now feeling that this whole time apart has been setup by her to get to where we are now and it has gone to plan for her. I now think I will receive papers in the not too distant future and so am exploring the idea of moving back into MH before it happens.
If anyone has any advice from a DB perspective on what to do next.
You may be on moderation now, post in small frequent replies and stay on this thread until you reach 100 posts (for your thread, you can also post on other peoples threads to give support). Especially on this Newcomers forum, where the posting activity is very active, and your posts can quickly fall to the bottom of the page or even several pages down. Keep journaling and asking questions - people will come! Most important - POST!
Get out and Get a Life (GAL). DETACH.
Believe none of what he or she says and half of what he/she does.
Have NO EXPECTATIONS.
Take care of yourself, breathe, eat, sleep, exercise.
Take the parts of this advice that you need and don't worry if I have repeated something that you have already done.
Here are a few links to threads that will help you immensely:
Rooney, sorry you are here, but welcome and I hope you will find it beneficial.
First, unfortunately like a lot of us, you've made a lot of mistakes already before coming here. The good news is that you can turn things.
Because of your advanced situation, with you already being out of the house and her already lawyering up, the first thing you MUST do is go talk to a lawyer. You have to know your rights and then you need guidance on reasserting your rights. Spouses can't threaten to take the kids, spouses can't "kick" a spouse out of the house. But all that might be affected by your willfully leaving the home. So talk to a lawyer first and foremost.
Second, continue the DBing. Remember some of the communication rules. 1) NO R talks. If she starts one, listen and validate. 2) Do not always answer her calls, let some of them go to voicemail. You can no longer be at her beckon call. 3) Do not respond to text messages unless it is a direct question. And then only respond with short answers, as short as possible to answer the question. Yes or no questions get yes or no answers.
Third, and most important, be the best dad you can be. Work out a custody agreement (use lawyers if necessary). You need to get 50/50 time with the kids. No matter what happens your kids need their dad.
I will reiterate to keep DBing. GAL. 180s. Detachment. Your goal should be to become a man only a fool would leave.
Good luck. Dig in for the long haul. These things are marathons...not sprints.
M(53), W(54),D(19) M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017 Ring and Piecing since March 2018
Just keep POSTING and one other bit of advice from Wonka that I totally agree with.
Originally Posted by Wonka
Get DR/DB book. Keep this to yourself. DO NOT share this book or this site at all with your spouse. It is your playbook and not to be shared with the "opposing" team.
It is important to clear the search/browsing history from your computer on a daily basis to prevent the possibility for your WAS to stumble on the DB site and discover your posts here on DB. Erasing the search history will protect your posts and you as well.
We have seen too many Marriages blow up in pieces after the WAS discovers the DB site or DR book. Why is that? It is because the WAS thinks, erroneously I might add, that you are "manipulating" them back into the M.
Keep the DR book and DB site very close to your vest.
It appears that legally I am entitled to move back in but I don’t feel it is the right thing to do at this stage - I don’t think it would be fair on D to get her hopes up and it would likely just escalate things between me and W.
The positive of this seems to be that I have had a premonition of what reality may look like in the near future - I don’t really think I’ve been able or willing to look beyond my current sitch without seeing the beginning of a reconciliation at the end. I have now seen the other up front.
I think I now need to stare down the fear of D and double down on the DBing and detachment. I actually think that this incident and facing down the resulting fear may help me drop the rope and become a stronger more attractive man as a result.
Steve, you have also helped remind me what is of paramount importance here - I will see W in a few days and, now that D is comfortable in my apartment, increase her number of overnights with me to what we originally agreed.
You have to look at it from a legal perspective. In my state, if one parent moves out without any legal separation or D, and without a custody agreement, that person can be held to abaondonment. To be blunt, you put yourself in a very bad situation when it comes to custody of D9 by moving out.
It may suck, but you need to move back in and stay there until you are legally ordered to leave. My EXWW tried to get me out of the home before a custody agreement. I told her there was no way I was leaving. EXWW went and spoke with a L and they confirmed that if someone moves out, the abandonment angle can be used in court.
Go talk to an L immediately and protect yourself. If you end up moving back in, yes it may piss your W off to no extent, but it will also show her that you aren't going to just lay down and give her whatever she asks for. Its time for you to work on yourself and your kids.
It looks like you have already done a bit of reading on Cadets links. Time to start DB like a madman. GAL like a madman, 180 those toxic behaviors. You got this. Its a really sh*tty situation and it hurts more than anything. You may or may not save your M. But you need to get yourself to a better place. Get yourself into a position where you know you will be fine alone.
Keep posting.
M:16 T:21 H(me) 38 WW: 38 S11 D16 D19 Red Flags of A: March 2018 ILYBNILWY: August 4, 2018 Moved out of MBR: September 24, 2018 BD/Confirmation of A: October 31, 2018 D Filed: March 27, 2019
I think you should be open to moving back in if your lawyer feels it is advantageous.
Agree.
Also ask L about legal protecting so W can't just take your child.
W:"What are doing back here bla bla" H:"I decided it is best if I am here" W:"Bla bla bla bla" H"I understand you feel that way" W"Bla bla bla bla
Take over the master bedroom. W:"WHAT ARE YOU DOING??? go sleep on the couch bla bla bla" H:"I will be sleeping here in MBR, you are free to sleep where ever you like" W"bla bla bla bla" H"I am sorry you feel that way"
"What is best for my kids is best for me" Amor Fati Link to quotes: https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2879712
I think you should be open to moving back in if your lawyer feels it is advantageous. Be careful to never doubledown on a poor decision.
Lawyer didn’t say it would be advantageous, he just stated the legal fact. I doubt it would change my legal position at all. The things it would change are D9 expectation and the time and space I said I would grant my wife (6 months lease on apartment).
Rooney, D9 would benefit from having her parents together as long as possible. And I gave my W time and space and we never even stopped sleeping in the same bed.
Anyway, just trying to keep giving you different perspectives. Let the legal aspect be your guide. If your L says it won't matter then that is most important.
M(53), W(54),D(19) M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017 Ring and Piecing since March 2018
I think you should be open to moving back in if your lawyer feels it is advantageous.
Agree.
Also ask L about legal protecting so W can't just take your child.
W:"What are doing back here bla bla" H:"I decided it is best if I am here" W:"Bla bla bla bla" H"I understand you feel that way" W"Bla bla bla bla
Take over the master bedroom. W:"WHAT ARE YOU DOING??? go sleep on the couch bla bla bla" H:"I will be sleeping here in MBR, you are free to sleep where ever you like" W"bla bla bla bla" H"I am sorry you feel that way"
Im in the UK and the grounds for abandonment are based on consent of both parties. Consent was given (actually requested!) by W for ‘space and healing’ purposes so there are no grounds there afaik. W knows that my apartment has a 6 month lease and so there are a couple of months yet before this needs to come to a head of some sort. I’m thinking that the above quotes are entirely appropriate in around 8 weeks time but don’t think I should panic and jump the gun. More DBing may be a better path for the next couple of months or so.
Patience is a virtue, no?
Obviously open to more opinion and discussion. This is very hard to comprehend nevermind make decisions on.
Rooney, D9 would benefit from having her parents together as long as possible. And I gave my W time and space and we never even stopped sleeping in the same bed.
Anyway, just trying to keep giving you different perspectives. Let the legal aspect be your guide. If your L says it won't matter then that is most important.
Agree on D9 benefits. Agree the same for H and W too.
The question remains what is ‘as long as possible’ and what is the best way to get there.
I don’t believe it makes any difference here as abandonment is based on consent. There was consent (request) for me to leave.
Rooney, please pick up and read the book "No More Mr. Nice Guy".
You cannot nice your W back. No one ever has been successful that way.
It’s on my list to buy next pay day. I can see myself having many a lightbulb moment when reading it. All part of my 180 to recognise, understand and deal this character trait that I now believe has hindered my progress.
Are you currently 50/50 parenting? If not, how often are you currently parenting?
No. Currently, I have D9 2 days with 1 overnight pw on the weekend b/c D9 was uncomfortable with 2 nights. She is now happy to stay two nights (at least) so will up it back to 2 or possibly 3.
You will be walking at least two different paths at the same time.
1) Divorced. Plan on this one. Accept it.
2) Reconcile. Make all the positive changes you can as quickly as you can. Every interaction with W is an oppertunity to show the "new you".
It is important for you to come up with a plan. Lay out the plan here. Let us give you input. Revise your plan. Repeat this process a few times until you have it solid.
I am a firm believer that children need both of their parents frequently involved in their lives. This is 50/50 parenting. You parenting rights are yours to loose during this. Standing up for this is on you. I did not leave the marital home until I had a 50/50 parenting plan in writing. This went against my lawyers advise. His staff understood why I was not moving out. I did not want the house, she did.
I saw the temptation to drink, but I refrained. I did not want to give any ammo to the opposition.
You can handle this
"What is best for my kids is best for me" Amor Fati Link to quotes: https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2879712
You will be walking at least two different paths at the same time.
1) Divorced. Plan on this one. Accept it.
2) Reconcile. Make all the positive changes you can as quickly as you can. Every interaction with W is an oppertunity to show the "new you".
It is important for you to come up with a plan. Lay out the plan here. Let us give you input. Revise your plan. Repeat this process a few times until you have it solid.
I am a firm believer that children need both of their parents frequently involved in their lives. This is 50/50 parenting. You parenting rights are yours to loose during this. Standing up for this is on you. I did not leave the marital home until I had a 50/50 parenting plan in writing. This went against my lawyers advise. His staff understood why I was not moving out. I did not want the house, she did.
I saw the temptation to drink, but I refrained. I did not want to give any ammo to the opposition.
You can handle this
Same here. No way I was leaving without a legal custody agreement.
M:16 T:21 H(me) 38 WW: 38 S11 D16 D19 Red Flags of A: March 2018 ILYBNILWY: August 4, 2018 Moved out of MBR: September 24, 2018 BD/Confirmation of A: October 31, 2018 D Filed: March 27, 2019
You will be walking at least two different paths at the same time.
1) Divorced. Plan on this one. Accept it.
2) Reconcile. Make all the positive changes you can as quickly as you can. Every interaction with W is an oppertunity to show the "new you".
It is important for you to come up with a plan. Lay out the plan here. Let us give you input. Revise your plan. Repeat this process a few times until you have it solid.
I am a firm believer that children need both of their parents frequently involved in their lives. This is 50/50 parenting. You parenting rights are yours to loose during this. Standing up for this is on you. I did not leave the marital home until I had a 50/50 parenting plan in writing. This went against my lawyers advise. His staff understood why I was not moving out. I did not want the house, she did.
I saw the temptation to drink, but I refrained. I did not want to give any ammo to the opposition.
You can handle this
Thank for this R2C
1) is something I hadn’t really gone near until last couple of days. I have only ever seen path 2) as an option. Probably because D was way too scary to look for. Now the idea has come and found me I am trying to stare at i, sit next to it and see a world that is a distinct reality post D. It’s tough to stare it down but I know I cannot be afraid of it. The comfortable with it I am, the more likely 2) may happen. This has been my focus over the last 24/48 hours, Lots of breath8ng sand trying to be still and in the moment, Reading is helping if nothing more than helping me to sleep.
Emailed W today about having D9 stay with me more often now she is more comfortable, She is happy about it. D9 enjoys spending time with me here but I think is understandably resistant because she wants her parents together. Any contested custody would likely be based on current arrangements. Looking. To get 3 overnights at the moment if my work allows it. I see her coming out of her shell when she has spent time with me - both lifts and breaks my heart.
I feel the same about children needing both parents. It seems to me that the a lot of people whose parents divorced end up following the same path. They use the ‘they’ll get over it’ and ‘didn’t do me any harm’ lines without any irony. The regret of leaving D9 hurts. Especially as W appears to be growing colder not just with me, Reasons for condemning of heart are probably many but I can’t see in there so there’s little point I trying,
If she is mlc, and is following the script, I guess it’s possible there is an EA. Proof may be hard to come by though. If I had any that would result in an instant return to the MB.
As for a plan. Prepare for 1) (new to me) and hope (and prepare for) 2), is it at the moment. I still feel I need more time or more info to cut short this temporary separation I (now think mistakenly) agreed to.
It seems to me that preparing for 1) or 2) are very similar in DB. Detach, GAL, 180 and patience.
Saw W yesterday to talk about D9 and we agreed to up the overnights to two over the weekend with possibly another midweek soon. I need to be with D9 as much possible - I don’t feel like W is interacting with her much at the moment. Her levels of selfishness seems to be growing.
My interaction with W was too open from me - I know I need to be more guarded and need to work on it. I was calm and cordial but too friendly. I should got through the business of D9 and left. Still way too attached and affectionate.
I believe I caught her lying yesterday too. She said she would be a bit late as a meeting was dragging on at work. When she came back she had clearly had a drink. I confronted her she said no, I said she had, then she said it was at lunchtime. I know none of that means she was with OM, but it is looking like a possibility that I need to come to terms with and figure out the best course of action to take to both prove it and deal with it internally and in reality. At least, it is disrespectful.
I’d like proof so the thought of a PI on a few evenings when I have D9 should confirm one way or another. Is this worthwhile? I see a few saying ‘does it matter?’ on other threads, but I want to honour the request for time and space that I was asked for so need to be sure if I were to go back to the MRB early.
Last couple of days have been tough looking down the barrel at D, but I think my fear is subsiding and there will hopefully come more detachment as a result.
At the moment, the plan is to:-
1) Have D9 stay as much as possible and spend the best time I can with her. Support S18 as much as I can.
2) DB more - the detachment is increasing but obviously way too strong still. Get back to GAL. Expand personal goals. Go darker.
3) Read - No More Mr Nice Guy is ordered today, so is DR. Any other book recommendations welcome.
4) Improve budgeting. After a couple of months of spending as I would’ve done previously, I need to reign in my spending.
3) Try to prove A. If A exists, then terms of temp S have been breached. Straight back to MBR, full LRT and leave her to deal with the consequences of her actions from the sofa. PI’s / discreet q to friends/IL. Any advice on pros and cons of these approaches are welcome.
4) Have patience over the next two months by committing to my growth in 2) and, if still no talk of R from W, then back to the MBR before lease ends as S was temp not perpetual. The default position was never for me to stay here indefinitely. May have been different in her head if she has just been manipulating me and ‘letting me down gently’.
5) Plan for D emotionally and legally. See different L for advice. Get papers in order. Possible counter file for D due to (if proven) A.
Another interaction with W yesterday when picking up D9.
The DBing is in my head when alone but not made it to my heart - I am not controlling my emotions. A kiss when arriving and with a hug when leaving...so far from detached and it comes across as desperate and needy pursuit. The most I should do is a peck on the cheek and even that may be too much at this stage.
I am also asking too many questions about her and how and what she is doing. A lot of this comes from trying to catch her lies about where and what she is doing. I don’t know how to detach when I am trying to figure out the extent of her lying. Maybe detachment is to go past caring what the hell she doing and how she can justify it to herself - trying to figure it out will test my sanity and so it is best if I don’t bother. I need to admit to myself that the woman I knew as my wife has gone and may never return and it is her decision to decide which path to take. Letting go is really really hard.
She still seems interested in telling me a bit about any progress (or lack of) there has been around changes she wants to make in herself. She told me she is putting on weight and she is the heaviest she has ever been, I said it didn’t matter, then I get ‘you’ve been telling me I’m fat for 10 years stop saying it doesn’t matter’. WTF? That is a huge rewrite of history - I have only ever tried to support her In her efforts to lose weight when she wanted to. I cannot believe she truly believes this is an accurate representation of history. Her newer group of friends must think I’m a monster. I tried to validate as much as possible - ‘I’m sorry you feel that way’, ‘I understand that you feel this way’, ‘I cannot change the past’. It helped us move away from the subject quickly.
D9 seemed distant and sad when I picked her up. We had a lovely afternoon and evening with family. I want to make sure the time she spends with me is the thing she looks forward to the most albeit in circumstances that are making her sad.
Anyway, I know the interaction with W has not helped. How much more damage it has caused, I don’t know. Maybe I am past caring...I guess if I was truly past caring, then I wouldn’t be making these mistakes.
Good weekend with D9 - we had lots of fun. She did knew things that will help build her confidence...
W takes D and S to see relatives tomorrow for a few days (was planned before BD and I was originally meant to be going).
Dropped off D, W asleep on couch when we got in. Very cold and stand offish when she woke as she has been for the past couple of weeks.
No kisses/hugs offered to me as I was leaving, so I offered none back. Felt very strange not to offer anything but, after all, she has fired me and I am not going on holiday with my family (which hurts like hell).
The NGS needs to disappear. NMMNG book should arrive tomorrow. Can’t come soon enough.
She said she would be a bit late as a meeting was dragging on at work. When she came back she had clearly had a drink. I confronted her she said no, I said she had, then she said it was at lunchtime. I know none of that means she was with OM, but it is looking like a possibility that I need to come to terms with and figure out the best course of action to take to both prove it and deal with it internally and in reality. At least, it is disrespectful.
Rooney, here is the problem- you are behaving like the two of you are still married, she is behaving like you are already divorced. She is closer to right than you are. Most WAS's consider the marriage done at BD. Most LBS's are already divorced at that point (at least spiritually), but continue to live in denial for months or even years. You can't control whether she has a drink at lunch and as far as she is concerned it's none of your business. Unless she is coming home sloppy drunk and it's affecting her motherly duties then it shouldn't be on your radar.
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I’d like proof so the thought of a PI on a few evenings when I have D9 should confirm one way or another. Is this worthwhile?
Only you can answer that. If you know she's having an A then are you done with the M? Ready to file D immediately? Or would you keep on DB'ing? If you would keep DB'ing then assume the worst and continue on. If you would file for D then go ahead and hire a PI and find out for sure.
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Read - No More Mr Nice Guy is ordered today, so is DR. Any other book recommendations welcome.
Married Man Sex Life Primer. Available electronically. Good info on apha versus beta behavior although somewhat of a crude read for the more sensitive out there!
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A kiss when arriving and with a hug when leaving...so far from detached and it comes across as desperate and needy pursuit. The most I should do is a peck on the cheek and even that may be too much at this stage.
Correct and yes, even a peck is too much. Think of someone you can't stand to the point of being repulsed by the sight of them. Would you like that person coming in for a kiss and hug every time you saw them? That's how your W feels right now.
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I am also asking too many questions about her and how and what she is doing. A lot of this comes from trying to catch her lies about where and what she is doing.
That needs to stop. She can tell she's being cross-examined, and that's not helping.
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I don’t know how to detach when I am trying to figure out the extent of her lying.
Detachment is understanding your M is done for now and that her lying simply doesn't matter. You live your life and you let her live hers, even if she's living a pack of lies. It needs to cease to be your concern.
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Maybe detachment is to go past caring what the hell she doing and how she can justify it to herself
Yes, that is in part exactly what it is.
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She told me she is putting on weight and she is the heaviest she has ever been, I said it didn’t matter, then I get ‘you’ve been telling me I’m fat for 10 years stop saying it doesn’t matter’.
Listen and validate. It matters to her, if it didn't she wouldn't have mentioned it. "You've gained some weight, how does that make you feel?" When you say "it doesn't matter" you are invalidating her feelings.
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I tried to validate as much as possible - ‘I’m sorry you feel that way’, ‘I understand that you feel this way’, ‘I cannot change the past’.
Those are wimpy rubber-stamp validation statements, and that last one is not validation at all.
Thanks for the reply, AS - I really need to learn fast here and any/all advice is welcome.
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Rooney, here is the problem- you are behaving like the two of you are still married, she is behaving like you are already divorced. She is closer to right than you are. Most WAS's consider the marriage done at BD. Most LBS's are already divorced at that point (at least spiritually), but continue to live in denial for months or even years. You can't control whether she has a drink at lunch and as far as she is concerned it's none of your business. Unless she is coming home sloppy drunk and it's affecting her motherly duties then it shouldn't be on your radar.
I know I need to let go yesterday. I need to stop playing stupid detective as it will send me crazy and also damage any chance of R.
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Only you can answer that. If you know she's having an A then are you done with the M? Ready to file D immediately? Or would you keep on DB'ing? If you would keep DB'ing then assume the worst and continue on. If you would file for D then go ahead and hire a PI and find out for sure.
I would keep DBing. At the moment, I think this process is something I need to go through regardless of MR and possible A. Maybe that will change further down the line.
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That's how your W feels right now
Hard to hear, but I know I have to take this and it is partly my fault that I am where I am.
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That needs to stop. She can tell she's being cross-examined, and that's not helping
Yes, it needs to stop. For my own sanity at least, I must detach.
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Listen and validate. It matters to her, if it didn't she wouldn't have mentioned it. "You've gained some weight, how does that make you feel?" When you say "it doesn't matter" you are invalidating her feelings.
Thank you. I hadn’t even realised it until you mentioned it here.
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Those are wimpy rubber-stamp validation statements, and that last one is not validation at all
I really need help with validation, I’m new to it and the pathetic attempts are pretty much my first. No idea where the last one came from but it does comes across like I’m agreeing with her rather than validating. I’m a fixer, always have been, it’s in my nature. It’s funny because my dad often does it to me when I speak to him about stuff - he immediately tries to help fix stuff when all I want him to do is listen - I don’t want him to try and fix it. It just comes across like he isn’t listening.
It would be interesting to know what you’d have said to validate and whether it now just comes naturally or whether you still have to work on it.
I would also like to know if W is possible MLC and whether that makes any difference to anything. Depression, loss of close relative, D18 moving away, SSRIs, possible premenopausal, parents divorce at young age all point to the possibility.
How much difference is there in the way you would interact with a MLC compared to a WW and a WAS? I’ve seen Sandi’s threads about how to treat a WW, but it doesn’t explain how to know which you are dealing with and how to deal with the other two types.
Are there any threads that help to categorise them and also explain the different ways to interact with them?
I think I understand that the DBing from a personal perspective isn’t much different - detach, GAL, 180s etc but not how to deal with the types themselves.
I would keep DBing. At the moment, I think this process is something I need to go through regardless of MR and possible A. Maybe that will change further down the line.
That was what I decided too, that even if my XW was having an A I was going to keep DB'ing. To this day I don't know if she had an affair, but the turning point for me was when I made that decision, and from that point on I just assumed she was having an A. Because once you assume the worst then you no longer feel the need to snoop and pry and cross-examine. In a lot of ways it sets you free.
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I really need help with validation, I’m new to it and the pathetic attempts are pretty much my first.
Well weak validation is better than none, so it's a good start. Have you read Cadet's links? There's one in there on validation. Validation is seeking to understand someone's FEELINGS. Not understand the SUBJECT. So for example, she says she's gained weight. How much doesn't matter, how it makes her look doesn't matter, how it affects your perception of her doesn't matter. What matters is her feelings, why she said it to begin with. So you mirror what she said and ask how it makes her feel.
"You've gained weight, how does that make you feel?"
"I just feel fat and bloated all the time, I'm miserable."
Invalidating response: "You don't look fat! You look amazing! Better than ever!"
Why is that invalidating, because it completely tramples on her feelings like you could care less how she feels. It also sounds disingenuous, because she FEELS fat so you telling her she's not sounds like a lie to her, like you pity her and want to make her feel better. It makes her feel like you are not listening to her, and don't care about how she feels. It's ironic because it's a well-intentioned response, right? That's why it's important to understand the concept of validation, because it is much, much different than how we've been conditioned to respond to these things.
Validating response: "I am sorry you're feeling miserable, that sounds very difficult. Is there anything I can do?"
Please understand what validating is NOT: It is not agreeing, disagreeing, negotiating, reasoning, pleading, resolving, confirming, denying, etc. It is simply acknowledging her feelings, it is saying "I hear you saying you feel XYZ and your feelings are valid to me."
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It’s funny because my dad often does it to me when I speak to him about stuff - he immediately tries to help fix stuff when all I want him to do is listen - I don’t want him to try and fix it. It just comes across like he isn’t listening.
EXXXXXAAAAACCCTTTTLYYYY! That is a perfect example. We men, we're classic "fixers". I remember my XW coming home one day and telling me about her boss doing all these terrible things and I launched into a speech of the things she needed to do the next day to "solve" this. I remember feeling a sense of pride over being so freakin' smart in telling her what to do. Oh man I just cringe thinking about it now, and ugh, I sure did it a LOT in our marriage. I have no doubt it was a contributing factor to the demise of our M. All she wanted is for me to listen and validate. The LAST thing she wanted was a lecture on how to "fix" it. Live and learn! Anyway yes, that's very perceptive. When you find yourself slipping into fixit mode then try and remember how you felt when your dad did that to you.
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I would also like to know if W is possible MLC and whether that makes any difference to anything. Depression, loss of close relative, D18 moving away, SSRIs, possible premenopausal, parents divorce at young age all point to the possibility.
My personal opinion? It has EVERYTHING to do with those factors. Those were all factors in my sitch as well except for her parents being divorced (her father passed away when she was in her teens and that has weighed heavily on her her entire life though). Science and the mental health fields have a lot of work to do to figure this out. Currently there is little understanding and no effective treatments. So yes I believe those are factors, but no I don't think there's any useful info there other than just knowing they are factors. It doesn't change anything about how you approach your sitch.
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How much difference is there in the way you would interact with a MLC compared to a WW and a WAS?
There's not a lot of difference, mainly it's the timeline. MLC can take many years to resolve. WAS's can turn around much faster than MLCers.
Because once you assume the worst then you no longer feel the need to snoop and pry and cross-examine. In a lot of ways it sets you free.
After dealing with the distinct possibility (likelihood?) of D, the EA/PA is the next thing to square up to. I like your approach of just assuming it to be true and carrying on with self DB work. Will stop the endless guessing and as you say, set me free to continue my growth.
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Validation is seeking to understand someone's FEELINGS. Not understand the SUBJECT
Such an odd thing to take onboard when your head wants to fix it for the person you love. In the end, I guess it’s all about listening to the heart instead. Why are us men never taught this [censored]?! I’ll read deeper into the validation threads - thankfully, it is no longer an alien concept to me but I need to own the techniques and make them part of the way I interact with people, not just W.
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I remember feeling a sense of pride over being so freakin' smart in telling her what to do. Oh man I just cringe thinking about it now
I hear you. Funny how it takes this to realise what a clown I was being. Basically behaving like I was at work rather than being there for the person I love. I’m not at the cringe stage yet but I want my head to get there fast.
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Science and the mental health fields have a lot of work to do to figure this out. Currently there is little understanding and no effective treatments.
Agree. I do believe that the max dose of SSRIs she was on after her Grandmothers death were a contributing factor in at least the speed of the demise of MR. After all, the things are meant to hide emotions themselves. I do believe that antidepressants are the equivalent of giving someone a bottle of whisky to deal with their problems.
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There's not a lot of difference, mainly it's the timeline. MLC can take many years to resolve. WAS's can turn around much faster than MLCers
The idea is to be ‘harsher’ with a WW than a MLC/WAS, yes? Still don’t know how I would go about diagnosis without knowing the different symptoms. If you assumed A win your MR, did you treat W as WW rather than MLC/WAS?
I’m just unsure if all these terms and explanations for S’s behaviour are a red herring and complicate matters unneccesarily .
Lots in there I recognise - I need to work through the book properly again and do some serious introspection.
A shame you only go looking for this stuff when it’s possibly too late to save R/M. Always useful for next time though...would help stop the complacency and laziness at least.
I’d have liked to have been able to share this with my W too but way too late for that. Is there an equivalent for women? Lots of this would apply to her in a similar way I think.
Saw W, S and D after they return from their holiday today...
W was emotional and tearful after a difficult journey home, I tried to stay detached and upbeat throughout our interaction and validated as much as I could and she seemed happy and as relaxed as I’ve seen her in my company for a while. She hugged me when she was upset and seemed to calm down after it. I’m not sure it means anything but she clearly needed my emotional support. Should have I resisted or would that have been a step too far?
She talked about her relatives and mentioned she thought her cousin and her husband may be having problems because she noticed her irritation with him. I find it bizarre that she can talk to me about that type of thing - she talks about it from a position as if we were a strong couple and we’re lucky we didn’t have this type of problem. The lack of empathy is astonishing - it really is like talking to a different person. I managed not to bite and stick to ‘really?, that’s a shame’ type comments.
I pecked her on the cheek when greeting and leaving. I need to stop doing it...detachment is hard to force though so I need to be more mindful when interacting with her.
Passed by the house again this evening. D9 at sleepover, S18 at grandparents.
No lights on, downstairs blinds open, W car not there. If I ask her if she was out she would say no. Starting to feel like I am paying for this apartment to just help enable some EA/PA. I still doubt she could do it but it now seems much more likely - I do think I have a case of the mlcs. It is still possible she is with friends but my paranoia is growing.
Feels like action is needed but patience is a virtue. How do I detach when in this position?
So, this evening I get an email to say she is done...
She doesn’t want to get back together and doesn’t believe she ever will. This is how she feels and she has to do what is right for her.
The utterly selfish behaviour is still going strong. The belief that D will ‘get over it’ still there. No interest in R or attempt of it.
Convinced there is a OM either EA/PA not sure. Not sure it matters right now.
I’m going to ignore the message for now but need to think about my next actions.
I’ve clearly been lied to and manipulated into this situation (something I realise has happened a lot over the years ) and now am torn between confrontation about (unproved) OM, hiring PI to prove A, moving back in to MH or giving up and accepting D completely.
Deep breaths. Take some time. WASs are the flakiest flakes on the planet. I am sure she meant everything said wrote in the email......at the moment that she wrote it. However, tomorrow, next week, 5 minutes later, etc, she may feel completely different! You cannot believe anything she says. And only half of what she does.
This is my advisement. Don't even acknowledge it. Just continue as if the email never existed. If she asks if you received it, just say "Yep." And then go back behaving as if the email never came.
Here is the thing, she sent if for a reason. SHe expects you to react. By NOT reacting she will be puzzled. She will wonder why. She may even get curious as to why it didn't get a reaction. But by not reacting you are not giving her what she wants.
And what she wants is for you to react someway. Believe it or not, if she is cheating, she wants to get caught. Then it is out in the open and she no longer has to hide it. Even though the romanticism of it (there is a thrill involved with sneaking around) will be reduced.
So just go about your business. Keep focusing on you. GAL. 180s. Detachment. There is no hurry on this. Every day that goes by makes it more likely that you will save your MR. Think of limbo as the gift of time! Many LBSs have been served D papers out of the blue, and come home to an empty house. As bad as it is it can always be worse.
M(53), W(54),D(19) M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017 Ring and Piecing since March 2018
I was expecting this type of message as I have gone pretty dark over the last week (busy with GAL) and haven’t caved into any of her requests - I have said no to a couple of things my NGS would normally have said yes to. I think this may have confused her a bit. The message itself is pretty scatty and promises to say a lot but doesn’t really say anything other than ‘looking to the future’.
I think your advice is sound - do nothing - let her ask if I have seen it and a simple ‘yes’ if she does.
I’m surprised how calm I am having received it. I’d have been distraught a few weeks ago.
I don’t know what’s going on in her head and am tired of mind reading but I do feel sorry for her right now, Sge. Must be in a really bad place to think destroying her family will solve her problems and make her happy. Pretty sad really.
Sorry to hear Rooney. I would suggest taking some time to calm down first before you do anything. You are angry right now and dont want to do anything that you will regret later. I know it is hard but wait a day for your emotions to calm down.
I would slow down, take some time to think about what you want to do. Confronting her when you are emotional never works out. Instead of going over there, take a side trip to a lake and think. Or go for a walk.
Here is the deal, read the list, read what others have posted.
One of my biggest regrets when I got the "ILYBNILWY" line was I moved into our basement bedroom, I had my suspicions of her affair, but nothing was concrete. Looking back, I was way to placid. Instead, I should have forced her out of the master bedroom, tossed her stuff into the spare room and been done with it. Keep saying this to yourself like a mantra...
She is leaving you. She is breaking up your family. She is seeing someone else for god knows how long. She is self-destructing. She is the cause of all of this.
Why let her actions control yours? I am not an expert, but I KNOW if I wouldn't have left the master bedroom, things would have ended differently to some extent. I can say this though, if you DO go do this, make sure you are sober. I would consider getting a tape recorder or record the day on your phone. Wayward wives are all insane, especially in when there is an affair going on, you need to be protected. I would even consider bringing a 3rd party there, just to keep the peace and make SURE the kids do not listen to her bashing you (which will happen). Just take deep breaths, do not engage in anger, but lay down the terms. "This is our house. What you are doing is not ok. You can leave our house if you like, but I will not. etc." Good luck, it's 12:30 am here, I will try to stay awake if you need me. You got this.
Me: 38 W: 32 S10 D6 T: 10 (02/2004) M: 7 (12/2007) Separation 02/2015 OM confirmed 01/2015, D mentioned 12/2014 D finalized 9/2016
The phone recording is a good idea. A 3rd party would also be good but, at this point, I am unsure who that should be.
The mantra you lay out is correct - whatever faults I have as a husband and as a person, my family and I do not deserve to be treated in this way. She is on some self destructive path where the grass looks greener and doesn’t give a damn about anyone else. This is not acceptable behaviour. She has emotionally abandoned S and D for this A and my voluntary physical ‘nice guy’ abandonment is just helping to facilitate it.
I am feeling very anxious about the day so any other words from anyone else will help. I really appreciate the solidarity of this site. It is full of amazing people who are full of wisdom.
Words of W isdom are what I need to hear right now.
No expert, but if you move back in she will go batsheet crazy and if you cave in and leave again it will show you as weak . It would be a bold move that could lead either way . Saying that ,there is no chance of saving your marriage or family whilst she is in an affair. Personally I would leave it , your emotions are high and I bet you are flip flopping in your mind . Take a break , watch some comedy on tv and give yourself some time
Rooney, my H moved out over a year ago. I would give my right eye for him to say he wants to work on us.
If he came here today and ASKED to move back in, I would say "No" because it's not fair on the children if he moved back in before we had worked through our issues properly.
If he came here today and TOLD me he was moving in, I would, as TryHard so eloquently put 'go batsheet crazy'.
And I want to get back together.
How do you think your W would take it when the last thing she wants right now is to be anywhere near you.
Will this action bring you closer together or pull you further apart.
I think it would pull us further apart, but my main concern now is that my WAS/WW/mlcer has emotionally abandoned our marriage and family, is having an A, and has no interest in R, is likely to serve D very soon and I am the one who is taking the hit because I let her manipulate me and left the MH rather than her.
Maybe I just now need to take that on the chin, maybe not. I don’t know anything right now...
I know my primary concern should now be D9, but am unsure which path would be best for her right now. None of the paths are appealing...maybe that means I should do nothing right now. D is coming to stay for a couple of nights - I should probably just have the best time I can with her.
TH,
Thanks, You are probably right - leaving it and saying nothing is probably best for now.
Rooney, I like your plan to move back in and take back the mbr. But here is the thing, you should do this only when you are are calm, cool, and collected. Take time to process everything so that when you go to do that you are able to do so without anger. That you do it in a detached but firm way. When she screams, please, yells, and attacks you verbally, you listen and validate.
Other vets will have some great advice here for you. Give them time (it's the weekend) and take a few days to process everything mentally and emotionally.
M(53), W(54),D(19) M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017 Ring and Piecing since March 2018
Sorry for the new developments you’ve got there Rooney. As AS said, it was one of the worst outcomes possible but what does it change anyway? From W perspective any harsh movement would just be more oxygen to the fire. Take your time. You need to keep DB. Many of us believe that once a DBer always a DBer from that on.
W is not living a fairy tale life anyway. I was there, inside that fog. There’s no safe place to take cover. And you can’t rescue her. She must do her own recovery. But first she must acknowledge that. So what can you control there? Only yourself. Go for that.
Take the time for yourself. Try to really enjoy the incoming days with D9 and keep working on detachment. Train your mind to avoid certain thoughts. It’s hard, I know. That’s why GAL is that very much needed. GAL with D9 and your S and then GAL when you are on your own. GAL, GAL, GAL.
Respect is the first thing to get back. Set some new boundaries regarding the broken agreement. But only if you’re into the right state of mind. You don’t confront W about the news. You just inform her that you know. So new rules must be applied.
Stand strong there Rooney. There’s nothing new in your sitch that differs from what you can find here man. But this fight is yours. An the one to fight is the old Rooney. Start getting into the new one. Amoafwl. Start moving for that goal. W must feel the loss of the renewed R. It’s gonna be her loss.
Sending you a big hug man! (((R)))
WW H(me): 53 W: 48 T: 27 M: 22 S: 18 Piecing since 03/2016 Saw the light in the storm
Hi Rooney, I hope you can find a little peace for yourself this weekend. Obviously, you feel the emotional pressure about everything going on with your W. You feel indecisive about the next move to make......which I think most people here could empathize with your situation.
IMHO, you should do nothing this weekend but enjoy D9.
I've been quite regarding you moving back and reclaiming the MBR, but since you asked, I'll give my perspective. From the viewpoint of a WW, it has already been adequately describe, which is she will probably go batsh't crazy. I don't know her and don't know how physical she gets when she is irate, but I have read some wild stories of WW's reactions to being put out of the MBR. Your W thinks she has you by your b@lls, b/c she got you to leave the house, so she is not expecting to see you waltz back through the door.
Before you attempt to reclaim your home (much less the MBR), you need to have plenty of confidence in what you are doing and why you are doing it. You need to have a plan that goes further than just getting inside the house. She may huff & puff and may threaten to call the cops, etc. I've seen some WW's make false accusations about the H to the police, so you have to be very careful not to show any type of aggression toward her. If you attempt to move her things out of the MBR.....I think she'll see that action as aggressive. There's just something about the WW not wanting to give up that MBR! IDK how she'll react, but I've seen some WW's declare war on the H who took that sort of action. However, I don't know your W, I'm just saying what I have seen. Some H's have moved back home, without too much drama. I mean, the WW didn't like it, but beyond the expected huffing & blowing and some threats.....that was about it.
I don't want you having any illusions that moving back into the house will save your M. You won't lose it, due to moving back, either. I just want you to clearly understand that if you decide to go home, then do it from a standpoint of being the faithful husband.........whose W has deceived, lied, and cheated on him.
You can expect her to tell you that she had been considering reconciliation, but now you have ruined everything. It's just her way of lashing out.....but if that's the worst of it, you'll be lucky.
The main person to consider in all of this is D9. Will she witness a terrible fight between her parents, see mom throw a big fit.....scream & throw things? Perhaps choosing a time when D9 is not there to see her mom's reaction, would be best?
You can't go home and be a wuss. Know what I mean? If you are going back to reclaim what is rightfully yours, then walk through the front door like a man.
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
Thank you everyone for your replies. This is community astounds me and it means a lot to receive it’s support, wisdom and advice.
I’ve enjoyed D’s company today - she is a wonderful kid - thoughtful, bright and emotionally intelligent. She has told me that, although she likes being at home rather than here “because it is, you know...home”, she feels lonely because she spends all her time in a different room to W and she would rather be with her friends and family. It breaks my heart.
This weekend will be for her and she already seems happier, less insular and more relaxed. I have a lot of thinking, planning and deciding to do and at the moment and I don’t yet know where to start. I have time and do not need to do anything rash right now. As most have you have said, I cannot react and be emotional about this. I must continue to detach, GAL, breathe and be patient and any action must come from a different place that I am not currently in. I still have some time in this apartment and I should use it wisely.
My basic feelings are still that I am the only responsible adult in this family and yet I have allowed myself to be manipulated, bullied, controlled and tossed aside. For her to indefinitely continue to cake eat while I soak up all the negative consequences is offensive, hideously selfish and unacceptable. Me leaving was done in (badly placed, NGS) good faith, not to enable A and the emotional abandonment and destruction of my family. Whether the end result of this is D (very likely) doesn’t seem to be my primary concern at the moment. Maybe that is a good thing, even for someone who believes in DB...maybe that is part of the point of DB...
It is often said here, that inaction is an action in itself. You said yourself that this hurts like hell (and it does) but it won't always. Get to a place of calm then make a decision.
Is there anyway you could spend more time with D. You mention your W is not that interested in being a mom.
Originally Posted by Rooney
My basic feelings are still that I am the only responsible adult in this family and yet I have allowed myself to be manipulated, bullied, controlled and tossed aside.
There is a lot of anger and resentment in the above. And I get it. I was there too. But, until you step away you will not be able to get past this and move forward. As you said, breath and be patient. You will get there. Until then, be the responsible adult. If your W won't step up, then you be both parents. Your child deserves it.
My youngest is 9. What she needs is to feel secure and loved, preferably by both parents. You can't make your W be a good mom, but you can make sure you are the best dad you can possibly be. Little things, like calling every night you are not with them at the same time (routine) lets them know that no-matter what you are doing and where you are, she is in your thoughts, taking the time to ask the questions about her day so she knows she matters, and when you are with her, be present. The last is truly one of the things that has come out of my sitch which has been positive. When I am with my children I am with my children - because I don't have to worry about anything else (I do everything else when I am not with them).
It is often said here, that inaction is an action in itself. You said yourself that this hurts like hell (and it does) but it won't always. Get to a place of calm then make a decision
The weekend has been ’interesting’ to say the least! Thanks for asking...
Trying to take some time to process everything that I have learned and everything that has happened - feels like a rollercoaster that I cannot get off. It really is challenging the core me. I need to find my core happiness and calm again and make any decisions from there. I don’t know how long this will take but I think W will start asking to meet up and talk about ‘the future’ soon. That future will no doubt include D, and I need to get a steer on what she thinks she wants.
I really want the opportunity to tell her how I feel and to point out the well worn path she is taking, the destruction it causes, and that she will not find any lasting happiness down there. In the dead of night, she must know this is the truth but lashes out at all around because she will not face up to her deep rooted problems. She still has a loving H and family that is willing to stick by her to sort her problems but they cannot fix the problems for her. To continue to run from them will just hurt all those around her. I doubt saying any of this will help my sitch really as her heart is obviously still stone cold and elsewhere.
Any decision I do make seems to be impossible to weigh up at the moment. Taking into account of D9 against any actions of moving back feels to be impossible. How can possibly make it? What is it I want other than something I can’t have? Too much emotion...
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Is there anyway you could spend more time with D. You mention your W is not that interested in being a mom.
I could suggest seeing her more often in the week but she normally has activities on that begin before I get home from work. I could possibly see her on one other night in the week which I might be able to turn into an overnight. At the moment, she doesn’t like spending too much time away from home because ‘it doesn’t feel like home’. This place has always been temporary and isn’t big enough for it to feel like home for her and, although it breaks my heart, I don’t want to force her to spend time here when she feels safe (albeit lonely) at home. Whether this is the right attitude is hard to gauge at the moment.
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There is a lot of anger and resentment in the above. And I get it. I was there too. But, until you step away you will not be able to get past this and move forward
Yes, and that’s why I don’t feel like I can make any decisions yet. How did you get to a place where you were detached enough to make any path forward? I don’t see how it can be anything other than time and patience and the path itself will become clear.
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Until then, be the responsible adult. If your W won't step up, then you be both parents. Your child deserves it.
When I am with her I ensure she feels loved and cherished and try to make sure the time is always quality. She seems to respond well as she becomes more open and positive but the underlying sadness she obviously feels breaks my heart.
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Little things, like calling every night you are not with them at the same time (routine) lets them know that no-matter what you are doing and where you are, she is in your thoughts, taking the time to ask the questions about her day so she knows she matters, and when you are with her, be present
I need to do better with this. It has been haphazard. I must do better. Thanks for reiterating the importance of it.
I need to look after myself. I haven’t eaten well this weekend and my appetite hasn’t been there. I must GAL beavilty this week - trying to plan to see friends and family every day. W will doubt ask if I read her message about wanting to ‘look to the future’....something I don’t feel I am in a place to see.
I must read your sitch ST as I’m guessing you have been in a similar place to me fairly recently.
At the moment, she doesn’t like spending too much time away from home because ‘it doesn’t feel like home’. This place has always been temporary and isn’t big enough for it to feel like home for her and, although it breaks my heart, I don’t want to force her to spend time here when she feels safe (albeit lonely) at home. Whether this is the right attitude is hard to gauge at the moment.
One of the things I insisted on (and he adhered to) when my H moved out was he made room for our children in his new flat. They have (a shared) bedroom which is decorated with flowers and butterflies. D9 has a box of toys, some she took from here, others he has bought her over the past year. There are pictures of the children EVERYWHERE. When he first moved in he took them shopping so they could help him decorate. It is not home, but he has done everything he can to make it feel like home. His flat is far from a bachelors flat. In fact, he has little fairies housed in the rafters in his living room and fair lights around the pillars.
Make your flat a place D9 wants to go. Also, D9 will sometimes say she wants to stay in the house and we (her dad and I) will insist that she goes anyway. Not because I don't want her with me (in fact it kills me whenever my children leave) but because they need to spend time with her dad. Make spending time with you something to look forward to. On their first night with their dad the put on face masks and played board games. He make them pancakes in the morning and cooks them their favourite foods (spaghetti or steak - so not too difficult for him). He takes them places. He sits and watches movies with them. TBH - I have so much respect for him as a dad. A lot of fathers could take a page out of my H's book.
Originally Posted by Rooney
How did you get to a place where you were detached enough to make any path forward? I don’t see how it can be anything other than time and patience and the path itself will become clear.
Honestly, I don't know. I am not sure I am detached. I know I am not angry. I know that his actions don't effect me. I know I don't care anymore what he does or who he does it with. I only care that he is a good parent. And he is. Everything else is just noise.
Time and patience yes. But also, be willing to take a long hard look at yourself and take responsibility for the things that went wrong in your M. No-one is 100% responsible for the breakdown of a marriage. It happens over years, and we all contributed. If they are 100% responsible, then we are 100% responsible for allowing it to happen. Once you can look at your marriage objectively, you will realise that you are neither the victim or the villain. And then you can forgive. You will not be detached unless you can forgive.
The things that worked for me ... living in the present. Taking notice of the things around me. Challenging my mind and my body (I have done lots of solo holidays over the last year) and when those things aren't available, watching stand up comedy.
Make your flat a place D9 wants to go. Also, D9 will sometimes say she wants to stay in the house and we (her dad and I) will insist that she goes anyway.
This place was always temporary. My W basically led me on to say I would be back soon enough after some time to heal her wounds. I didn’t realise it was all just a way to control me and ‘let me down gently’. I’ve done my best in the single bedroom to make her feel at home when she is here but it isn’t somewhere I can continue to be anyway. Whether I decide to move home or to a place where she has space to call her own is the question. We are doing things that we like together and trying new things. I’m ruing to teach her to cook which is helping her try new food.
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Time and patience yes. But also, be willing to take a long hard look at yourself and take responsibility for the things that went wrong in your M. No-one is 100% responsible for the breakdown of a marriage
There is no doubt I have played my part in getting where we are. The difference is that I am willing to put he work in to fix it and become a better person for a better marriage and a happier family. W is not. She would seemingly prefer to destroy her family. I could deal with it if we’d have tried and failed to fix M but we haven’t even tried. It was just BD then ‘temp’ S and now likely D. It is crushingly difficult to accept let alone forgive.
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The things that worked for me
Breathing and exercise help me. I’d like to challenge myself more - that is something D9 and I should do together. I’m not particularly religious, but it also seems to help. Serious belly laughs do seem to be one of the best ways to get rid of the pain too,
Good to hear your weekend was good and that you did not do something you would regret when your emotions were high. This is horrible but you will heal with time. Stay strong!
I’m glad I didn’t react. I now need to recenter and detach. I do not know what I am going to do yet. D9 makes any decision difficult.
W obviously wants to talk about a future where we are D. The next step may be to listen to what she has in mind and go from there.
Until I can get my head around not ever having an opportunity to R, any further detachment will be hard. It will take a lot of strength and patience - things that feel like they are in short supply at the moment...
Just got caught up on your sitch. Emotional strength is a strange thing to qualify for men, but you need it.
It is time to move back. Don't take any crap from her when you do. Explain briefly and calmly. Then walk out of the room to the next thing you have planned.
Now is not the time to talk about a future when yall are divorced. Plenty of time for that, whenever you get ready.
For now you need to accept that you may never be with her again, then you go GAL and literally, physically, and eventually mentally and emotionally start moving forward.
H 34 W 29 BD 3/12/18 Divorce Busted Spring 19
It is not things that bother us, but the stories we tell ourselves about things.
I’ve been DBing as best I can - GAL and detaching so that I can make the best decisions I can. It’s been going well. Spending more time with the kids as given me strength and I can feel myself healing from the last salvo and growing stronger by the day.
I was triggered today though. D9 videoed W to talk to her. D turned the phone to me and W was in MB making shushing gestures elsewhere. I then asked ‘who she was shushing’, ‘no one’ was the reply with a hint of a smile. I’m now pretty sure S was in the house so it was likely him she was shushing for the call but I can’t be sure.
I was triggered but I seem to be recovering from the incident much quicker than I thought I would. I don’t know what W makes of the incident but I guess I’m not as fussed what she makes of it as I would’ve been previously. I am obviously still way too attached to outcomes but it was a trigger that I wasn’t expecting and was hard to avoid. I really didn’t need it at the moment.
These incidents remind me how hard all of this is. I need to accept the fact I don’t trust this alien who has taken my wife anyway and so must detach from it totally and utterly. I guess the best way to deal with it is to go on as if it never happened and keep on with DB. I’d gone totally dark with W until this incident and may have just undone all that work.
Just starting to read the book ‘Boundaries’ by Cloud and Townsend...
I think they wrote the ‘Controllers’ section about W...
I think it will help this NGS actually understand the dynamics of the MR and the toxicity of much of the last few years and how it got to BD without me really noticing.
Not sure what you meant by "trigerred". Were you saying you believed OM to be there for a moment? Of course, there's a way to avoid that from happening and it's moving back.
H 34 W 29 BD 3/12/18 Divorce Busted Spring 19
It is not things that bother us, but the stories we tell ourselves about things.
Not sure what you meant by "trigerred". Were you saying you believed OM to be there for a moment? Of course, there's a way to avoid that from happening and it's moving back.
I need to continue to have patience. continue to detach and continue to GAL. D9 is making the decision hard - I hate the idea that she will see me and W live like strangers in a house that doesn’t have a spare room for some amount of time until a likely D. Reading about Boundaries and how manipulative she is and has been over the last few years makes me wonder whether I even want anything to do with her anyway. She would need to change a lot and she is way too engrossed in her ‘new life’ to be interested in doing so.
W has messaged me assuming I don’t want to talk because I haven’t said ‘let’s talk’. I think she wants me to make the running to make it easier for her. Don’t really feel the need to jump on it.
2x4s welcome. As are any other comments on the worry I have about D9 on this.
Haven’t updated in a while...so thinking out loud.....
I still haven’t moved back. Still the same decision though - boundaries and self respect tell me I should go back as I have been lied to and manipulated out of my own house so that W can live some fantasy or other under the guise of ‘space’. Only thing stopping me is D9 and what expectations it will bring to her if I did. It is likely it will be the start of a D process if/when I do but that is probably just bringing forward the inevitable anyway. I need to go and see a new L about what the implications are for moving back and whether they ‘advise’ it.
W wanted to talk about ‘the future’ with me and I agreed to meet her last week. We had an hour and she didn’t have the heart/nerve/whatever to say anything about it. I was happy and surprised by how calm and detached I was throughout. It was like I was watching us both talking from another seat at the table. Next question is whether I listen to what W wants the future to look like (as selfish and delusional as it might be) before I go to see L and decide the next move or just see L regardless and make my moves based on that conversation.
I’ve been spending really good quality time with D9 - much better than when I was at home. Too often I was too influenced by the depressed mood of W and so didn’t did the things I should of with her. Not any more. The space is allowing me to grow and become a better more confident father.
I need to find new GAL activities but at the moment my main one is spending quality time with D. I need to take up golf again and do some hiking with a few buddies. The running, weights and good eating has made me feel as good as I ever have though. I just wish I could sleep a little better. Maybe now a fair few BDs have been delivered (and the big D won’t surprise me if/when it comes) and I continue to detach, this will improve with a bit more time.
S came out with me and D the other day. It turns out it wasn’t him last weekend morning as he said he hasn’t been awake early since the holidays. Seems that W asked S if I asked him any q’s and he said I had. She confronted me this morning about it and it took me by surprise. I made it clear that she should tell me the truth rather than lie and deceive. Hard to know whether this basic attempt to put down a boundary was the right approach or whether a more validating approach would have been better but perhaps that is me worrying too much about outcomes.
Had a great fun weekend with D - we really are bonding more than we ever could when I was with W - her controlling nature and depression made it difficult to do things I wanted to do as a family and so (mistakenly) ended up not doing them.
I took her home and was as calm and as relaxed as I have been since BD with W. Beside her normal venting about day to day problems to me (which I validated her feelings on) she also seemed fairly relaxed.
She still seems fairly adamant that all her problems and problems in the MR are/were my fault and the improvement in her mood recently prove that (she hasnt been tearful recently). Still on a fairly high dose of SSRI. I didn’t bother trying to explain to her that it takes two to tango and it doesn’t necessarily follow the improvement in her mood proves things were all my fault - time and space are great healers as are some of the changes she has started to make for herself. I also feel better in some ways but it doesn’t mean I want D etc.
I was happy with my level of detachment until I showed some beta weakness around how busy work is at he moment and how I don’t have the headspace I usually have for it. No idea why I did this. I guess I’m still occasionally treating her as my W rather than the alien she is and that the NGS is still alive and kicking. I still had a good shout and scream about the sitch and the alien herself on the drive back from the house though.
The more time that passes, the stronger and more confident I feel and the more I feel like I will move back and, however hard it will be, it will at least put the ball in her court and put me in a better place to start any D process. I then get times like tonight where I think I would be best not bothering, move to a bigger rental place and to get on with the rest of my life. I must go and see another L soon to help me decide.
I still have time though. It is a couple of months before I would go back.
W has just admitted PA to me. Wasn’t surprised. Seems that I informed her she has been in an EA with him for a long time. The guy I thought it was too - a guy from her work who gets beaten by his W. Sounds about right... easily controlled and easily manipulated.
Will set up L meeting tomorrow.
Such a shame that she has taken this path - she is doing what she sees as best for her and nobody else gets a look in.
W has informed S and D that we won’t R. W didn't bother to tell me she had done this - D ended up informing me when I saw her. She was told a few days ago. I did my best to deal with this and we ended with hugs and high fives that we would get through this together.
I’m finding it hard to deal with the fact W didn’t tell me this. She really is an alien...
I think we are now done. I don’t see any chance of R - I have been treated abysmally throughout this time and feel I was manipulated into it and it was all planned well in advance.
The decision to move back in because I was duped into this and that stipulations of the separation were broken versus how it might affect D9 doesn’t appear to get any easier though. Moving back feels like the right thing to do for me but I don’t know if it is right for D at least in the short term.
It just feels like an impossible decision to make.
Any words of wisdom, advice of how to make it or links to similar sitches would be really helpful guys.
Does anyone have any advice on how to make this decision?
Most of me wants to move back and make her lie in the bed she has made rather than him possibly moving in and dealing with any proceedings from there. Part of me wants to walk away and start afresh now - the space has been good for me and my relationship with D and I feel that going back may hinder this.
The affect this all has and will continue to have on D breaks my heart.
Does anyone have any advice on how to make this decision?
Most of me wants to move back and make her lie in the bed she has made rather than him possibly moving in and dealing with any proceedings from there. Part of me wants to walk away and start afresh now - the space has been good for me and my relationship with D and I feel that going back may hinder this.
The affect this all has and will continue to have on D breaks my heart.
What did the lawyer say?
M(53), W(54),D(19) M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017 Ring and Piecing since March 2018
She said I’m legally entitled to go back but said I should think of the impact it might have on D. My counter was that the impact on D of OP moving in will be harder. She then replied ‘W can’t do that!’, I asked if that was her legal opinion.. it wasn’t, it was her moral one, W is legally entitled to invite anyone to stay as a guest.
S doesn’t go to college until next month so there are no spare bedrooms in the house. Rental lease on one bed apartment is up soon and need to give notice soon.
1. Move back, ASAP. You should have never left. 2. Take back the MBR. This is important because your STBXW doesn't respect you. Taking back the MBR will earn back her respect. 3. I am missing the "impact on D". This is all going to suck for your D9. But having her dad in the marital home is definitely better than not having her. 4. No guest bedroom isn't your problem. You move back. Move your stuff into the MBR. Take her stuff and put out of the MBR. WHen she protests you say firmly, "I refuse to share the MBR with a cheater." Then listen, and validate. Stand firm. She will be angry and may even scream "I hate you". But she WILL respect you. 5. If she leaves for OM's apartment, even better. Then she is his problem. And you've flipped the script on the abandonment issue!
M(53), W(54),D(19) M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017 Ring and Piecing since March 2018
I am appalled she spoke to D9 about your MR like that, THAT has more of an impact to D9 than anything.
Having talked to lawyers and counselors through my process, I would say... don't use counselors for legal advice, and don't use lawyers for relationship advice.
I’m constantly trying to rationalise her behaviour but I also know it is a total waste of time. My brain just have the capacity to process what has gone on.
If I swap me for her in this sitch, I would be utterly embarrassed, feel immense shame for what I had done and would think trying to have an OP, stay in the house, get W to leave etc would be the most brazen, selfish and disrespectful thing I could possibly do. Yet when it is me that is being treated in that way, I never see it quite like that. It is really gets on my nerves that I clearly don’t have the level of self respect that I should have - I do not deserve to be treated in this way by anyone.
I’m constantly trying to rationalise her behaviour but I also know it is a total waste of time. My brain just have the capacity to process what has gone on.
If I swap me for her in this sitch, I would be utterly embarrassed, feel immense shame for what I had done and would think trying to have an OP, stay in the house, get W to leave etc would be the most brazen, selfish and disrespectful thing I could possibly do. Yet when it is me that is being treated in that way, I never see it quite like that. It is really gets on my nerves that I clearly don’t have the level of self respect that I should have - I do not deserve to be treated in this way by anyone.
This is all fine....however, you will regret not doing what I said above......for the rest of your life....if you do not grow a pair and take back respect, then you will regret it for the rest of your life. You will look back in 2, 5, or 10 years and say "If I had stood up for myself, commanded respect, and done what I should have, who knows how it would have worked out."
Further, you have kids. And you have to set an example.People treat us the way we teach them to treat us. Your kids will know this.......
M(53), W(54),D(19) M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017 Ring and Piecing since March 2018
This is all fine....however, you will regret not doing what I said above......for the rest of your life....if you do not grow a pair and take back respect, then you will regret it for the rest of your life. You will look back in 2, 5, or 10 years and say "If I had stood up for myself, commanded respect, and done what I should have, who knows how it would have worked out."
Living with that regret would hollow me out. Whatever happens further down the line, I need to know I have done right by me and my kids. I can only control and be responsible for my own actions and inactions and will have to live with them.
Originally Posted by Steve85
Further, you have kids. And you have to set an example.People treat us the way we teach them to treat us. Your kids will know this.......
How would I answer a grown up D if/when she asks me why I didn’t do anything. She would rightly wonder why I didn’t do the right thing and stand by the family. She will need to know an age appropriate version of what W has done soon.
A S friend of mine lets his W treat him like junk in front of his kids when he sees her. They all now mimick her behaviour towards him and so he has lost all their respect. He continues to put himself in the situation where she gets the opportunity to do it. It will be a huge struggle for him to get the respect back.
I’ve told D and W I’m moving back in. My lease is up, she broke our agreement and he is hanging about around my house.
She is rattled. Got some lawyerspeak email from her that tries to weaponise the children and her depression against me.
She says she will start mediation if I move back in. As if that is a threat?!
My response will be that I will move back in if a) she starts mediation b) let’s OM anywhere near my house and my D, or c) when my lease comes to an end. Whichever of those scenarios comes first will trigger my move.
Found out today W is getting two cats. She knows I’m allergic to cats. She also knows D is allergic to cats.
Rooney, now that you've given her a heads-up on your plan to move back in--and it sounds like she may be taking extreme countermeasures such as owning a pet you're allergic to--do you have a plan to deal with simple ones such as her changing the locks?
Rooney, now that you've given her a heads-up on your plan to move back in--and it sounds like she may be taking extreme countermeasures such as owning a pet you're allergic to--do you have a plan to deal with simple ones such as her changing the locks?
She isn’t allowed by law to change the locks to the house that we both own. It wouldn’t do her any good. She knows there isn’t anything she can do to stop me moving back beyond emotional blackmail and cat allergens.
I’ll take plenty of antihistamines for me and my D. 😀
It doesn't get much more passive-aggressive than intentionally introducing a health hazard into your home. Yikes.
Good on you for stepping up, hang in there!
Cheers U. It is embarrassing to say that standing up to her and telling her I am moving back into my house has removed all anxiety I had. I had become a total shell and didn’t realise.
I think she is now realising her control is slipping.
That's awesome Rooney. Yeah sometimes I do or say things now that I would have been terrified to do or say previously. It is a strangely empowering feeling when fear melts away.
That's awesome Rooney. Yeah sometimes I do or say things now that I would have been terrified to do or say previously. It is a strangely empowering feeling when fear melts away.
Yep. It seems it is as simple as stepping into the perceived fire to realise it isn’t there. It’s just been built up by our Nice Guys.
