Thanks for the reply, AS - I really need to learn fast here and any/all advice is welcome.
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Rooney, here is the problem- you are behaving like the two of you are still married, she is behaving like you are already divorced. She is closer to right than you are. Most WAS's consider the marriage done at BD. Most LBS's are already divorced at that point (at least spiritually), but continue to live in denial for months or even years. You can't control whether she has a drink at lunch and as far as she is concerned it's none of your business. Unless she is coming home sloppy drunk and it's affecting her motherly duties then it shouldn't be on your radar.
I know I need to let go yesterday. I need to stop playing stupid detective as it will send me crazy and also damage any chance of R.
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Only you can answer that. If you know she's having an A then are you done with the M? Ready to file D immediately? Or would you keep on DB'ing? If you would keep DB'ing then assume the worst and continue on. If you would file for D then go ahead and hire a PI and find out for sure.
I would keep DBing. At the moment, I think this process is something I need to go through regardless of MR and possible A. Maybe that will change further down the line.
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That's how your W feels right now
Hard to hear, but I know I have to take this and it is partly my fault that I am where I am.
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That needs to stop. She can tell she's being cross-examined, and that's not helping
Yes, it needs to stop. For my own sanity at least, I must detach.
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Listen and validate. It matters to her, if it didn't she wouldn't have mentioned it. "You've gained some weight, how does that make you feel?" When you say "it doesn't matter" you are invalidating her feelings.
Thank you. I hadn’t even realised it until you mentioned it here.
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Those are wimpy rubber-stamp validation statements, and that last one is not validation at all
I really need help with validation, I’m new to it and the pathetic attempts are pretty much my first. No idea where the last one came from but it does comes across like I’m agreeing with her rather than validating. I’m a fixer, always have been, it’s in my nature. It’s funny because my dad often does it to me when I speak to him about stuff - he immediately tries to help fix stuff when all I want him to do is listen - I don’t want him to try and fix it. It just comes across like he isn’t listening.
It would be interesting to know what you’d have said to validate and whether it now just comes naturally or whether you still have to work on it.
I would also like to know if W is possible MLC and whether that makes any difference to anything. Depression, loss of close relative, D18 moving away, SSRIs, possible premenopausal, parents divorce at young age all point to the possibility.
How much difference is there in the way you would interact with a MLC compared to a WW and a WAS? I’ve seen Sandi’s threads about how to treat a WW, but it doesn’t explain how to know which you are dealing with and how to deal with the other two types.
Are there any threads that help to categorise them and also explain the different ways to interact with them?
I think I understand that the DBing from a personal perspective isn’t much different - detach, GAL, 180s etc but not how to deal with the types themselves.
I would keep DBing. At the moment, I think this process is something I need to go through regardless of MR and possible A. Maybe that will change further down the line.
That was what I decided too, that even if my XW was having an A I was going to keep DB'ing. To this day I don't know if she had an affair, but the turning point for me was when I made that decision, and from that point on I just assumed she was having an A. Because once you assume the worst then you no longer feel the need to snoop and pry and cross-examine. In a lot of ways it sets you free.
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I really need help with validation, I’m new to it and the pathetic attempts are pretty much my first.
Well weak validation is better than none, so it's a good start. Have you read Cadet's links? There's one in there on validation. Validation is seeking to understand someone's FEELINGS. Not understand the SUBJECT. So for example, she says she's gained weight. How much doesn't matter, how it makes her look doesn't matter, how it affects your perception of her doesn't matter. What matters is her feelings, why she said it to begin with. So you mirror what she said and ask how it makes her feel.
"You've gained weight, how does that make you feel?"
"I just feel fat and bloated all the time, I'm miserable."
Invalidating response: "You don't look fat! You look amazing! Better than ever!"
Why is that invalidating, because it completely tramples on her feelings like you could care less how she feels. It also sounds disingenuous, because she FEELS fat so you telling her she's not sounds like a lie to her, like you pity her and want to make her feel better. It makes her feel like you are not listening to her, and don't care about how she feels. It's ironic because it's a well-intentioned response, right? That's why it's important to understand the concept of validation, because it is much, much different than how we've been conditioned to respond to these things.
Validating response: "I am sorry you're feeling miserable, that sounds very difficult. Is there anything I can do?"
Please understand what validating is NOT: It is not agreeing, disagreeing, negotiating, reasoning, pleading, resolving, confirming, denying, etc. It is simply acknowledging her feelings, it is saying "I hear you saying you feel XYZ and your feelings are valid to me."
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It’s funny because my dad often does it to me when I speak to him about stuff - he immediately tries to help fix stuff when all I want him to do is listen - I don’t want him to try and fix it. It just comes across like he isn’t listening.
EXXXXXAAAAACCCTTTTLYYYY! That is a perfect example. We men, we're classic "fixers". I remember my XW coming home one day and telling me about her boss doing all these terrible things and I launched into a speech of the things she needed to do the next day to "solve" this. I remember feeling a sense of pride over being so freakin' smart in telling her what to do. Oh man I just cringe thinking about it now, and ugh, I sure did it a LOT in our marriage. I have no doubt it was a contributing factor to the demise of our M. All she wanted is for me to listen and validate. The LAST thing she wanted was a lecture on how to "fix" it. Live and learn! Anyway yes, that's very perceptive. When you find yourself slipping into fixit mode then try and remember how you felt when your dad did that to you.
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I would also like to know if W is possible MLC and whether that makes any difference to anything. Depression, loss of close relative, D18 moving away, SSRIs, possible premenopausal, parents divorce at young age all point to the possibility.
My personal opinion? It has EVERYTHING to do with those factors. Those were all factors in my sitch as well except for her parents being divorced (her father passed away when she was in her teens and that has weighed heavily on her her entire life though). Science and the mental health fields have a lot of work to do to figure this out. Currently there is little understanding and no effective treatments. So yes I believe those are factors, but no I don't think there's any useful info there other than just knowing they are factors. It doesn't change anything about how you approach your sitch.
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How much difference is there in the way you would interact with a MLC compared to a WW and a WAS?
There's not a lot of difference, mainly it's the timeline. MLC can take many years to resolve. WAS's can turn around much faster than MLCers.
Because once you assume the worst then you no longer feel the need to snoop and pry and cross-examine. In a lot of ways it sets you free.
After dealing with the distinct possibility (likelihood?) of D, the EA/PA is the next thing to square up to. I like your approach of just assuming it to be true and carrying on with self DB work. Will stop the endless guessing and as you say, set me free to continue my growth.
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Validation is seeking to understand someone's FEELINGS. Not understand the SUBJECT
Such an odd thing to take onboard when your head wants to fix it for the person you love. In the end, I guess it’s all about listening to the heart instead. Why are us men never taught this [censored]?! I’ll read deeper into the validation threads - thankfully, it is no longer an alien concept to me but I need to own the techniques and make them part of the way I interact with people, not just W.
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I remember feeling a sense of pride over being so freakin' smart in telling her what to do. Oh man I just cringe thinking about it now
I hear you. Funny how it takes this to realise what a clown I was being. Basically behaving like I was at work rather than being there for the person I love. I’m not at the cringe stage yet but I want my head to get there fast.
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Science and the mental health fields have a lot of work to do to figure this out. Currently there is little understanding and no effective treatments.
Agree. I do believe that the max dose of SSRIs she was on after her Grandmothers death were a contributing factor in at least the speed of the demise of MR. After all, the things are meant to hide emotions themselves. I do believe that antidepressants are the equivalent of giving someone a bottle of whisky to deal with their problems.
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There's not a lot of difference, mainly it's the timeline. MLC can take many years to resolve. WAS's can turn around much faster than MLCers
The idea is to be ‘harsher’ with a WW than a MLC/WAS, yes? Still don’t know how I would go about diagnosis without knowing the different symptoms. If you assumed A win your MR, did you treat W as WW rather than MLC/WAS?
I’m just unsure if all these terms and explanations for S’s behaviour are a red herring and complicate matters unneccesarily .
Lots in there I recognise - I need to work through the book properly again and do some serious introspection.
A shame you only go looking for this stuff when it’s possibly too late to save R/M. Always useful for next time though...would help stop the complacency and laziness at least.
I’d have liked to have been able to share this with my W too but way too late for that. Is there an equivalent for women? Lots of this would apply to her in a similar way I think.
Saw W, S and D after they return from their holiday today...
W was emotional and tearful after a difficult journey home, I tried to stay detached and upbeat throughout our interaction and validated as much as I could and she seemed happy and as relaxed as I’ve seen her in my company for a while. She hugged me when she was upset and seemed to calm down after it. I’m not sure it means anything but she clearly needed my emotional support. Should have I resisted or would that have been a step too far?
She talked about her relatives and mentioned she thought her cousin and her husband may be having problems because she noticed her irritation with him. I find it bizarre that she can talk to me about that type of thing - she talks about it from a position as if we were a strong couple and we’re lucky we didn’t have this type of problem. The lack of empathy is astonishing - it really is like talking to a different person. I managed not to bite and stick to ‘really?, that’s a shame’ type comments.
I pecked her on the cheek when greeting and leaving. I need to stop doing it...detachment is hard to force though so I need to be more mindful when interacting with her.
Passed by the house again this evening. D9 at sleepover, S18 at grandparents.
No lights on, downstairs blinds open, W car not there. If I ask her if she was out she would say no. Starting to feel like I am paying for this apartment to just help enable some EA/PA. I still doubt she could do it but it now seems much more likely - I do think I have a case of the mlcs. It is still possible she is with friends but my paranoia is growing.
Feels like action is needed but patience is a virtue. How do I detach when in this position?
So, this evening I get an email to say she is done...
She doesn’t want to get back together and doesn’t believe she ever will. This is how she feels and she has to do what is right for her.
The utterly selfish behaviour is still going strong. The belief that D will ‘get over it’ still there. No interest in R or attempt of it.
Convinced there is a OM either EA/PA not sure. Not sure it matters right now.
I’m going to ignore the message for now but need to think about my next actions.
I’ve clearly been lied to and manipulated into this situation (something I realise has happened a lot over the years ) and now am torn between confrontation about (unproved) OM, hiring PI to prove A, moving back in to MH or giving up and accepting D completely.
Deep breaths. Take some time. WASs are the flakiest flakes on the planet. I am sure she meant everything said wrote in the email......at the moment that she wrote it. However, tomorrow, next week, 5 minutes later, etc, she may feel completely different! You cannot believe anything she says. And only half of what she does.
This is my advisement. Don't even acknowledge it. Just continue as if the email never existed. If she asks if you received it, just say "Yep." And then go back behaving as if the email never came.
Here is the thing, she sent if for a reason. SHe expects you to react. By NOT reacting she will be puzzled. She will wonder why. She may even get curious as to why it didn't get a reaction. But by not reacting you are not giving her what she wants.
And what she wants is for you to react someway. Believe it or not, if she is cheating, she wants to get caught. Then it is out in the open and she no longer has to hide it. Even though the romanticism of it (there is a thrill involved with sneaking around) will be reduced.
So just go about your business. Keep focusing on you. GAL. 180s. Detachment. There is no hurry on this. Every day that goes by makes it more likely that you will save your MR. Think of limbo as the gift of time! Many LBSs have been served D papers out of the blue, and come home to an empty house. As bad as it is it can always be worse.
M(53), W(54),D(19) M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017 Ring and Piecing since March 2018
I was expecting this type of message as I have gone pretty dark over the last week (busy with GAL) and haven’t caved into any of her requests - I have said no to a couple of things my NGS would normally have said yes to. I think this may have confused her a bit. The message itself is pretty scatty and promises to say a lot but doesn’t really say anything other than ‘looking to the future’.
I think your advice is sound - do nothing - let her ask if I have seen it and a simple ‘yes’ if she does.
I’m surprised how calm I am having received it. I’d have been distraught a few weeks ago.
I don’t know what’s going on in her head and am tired of mind reading but I do feel sorry for her right now, Sge. Must be in a really bad place to think destroying her family will solve her problems and make her happy. Pretty sad really.
