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#2849110 05/13/19 08:34 PM
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Last edited by unchien; 05/13/19 08:34 PM.
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Originally Posted by Sh74
What do you do if your W says that she wants MC to work on the MR, but doesn't know if it can be fixed? I always get the sense that she is just trying to break the news to me softly, but I have to admit that I am completely paranoid now.

Sh74, good question.

I get paranoid too. My case is a little different as we stopped MC in January, I asked to go back, and she is delaying for a few months and at the same time has detached heavily from our M. I may not get the BD in MC, but it's fairly clear to me that my W's goal is *not* to work on our M. There's a lot of anger and resentment coming from my W in the last few months. It sounds like your MR is not at that point yet.

Also given my history of seeking reassurance and pressuring my W, I'm not surprised she might consider MC as a way to break the news to me softly. At first I thought this may be her way of feeling safe. Now I recognize she might do this because she's so worried about my emotional fragility, that BD in MC may be the most LOVING way she can do it. Either way, I need to work on my emotional health and part of that is differentiation and not being so co-dependent on our M. I sense you and I are similar that way.

How is MC going so far? I defer to the experts here to answer your question... I keep waffling how to respond.

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Journal —

Trying to focus on simplicity. PMA, 180s, GAL, Validate, Detach, Boundaries. Simplicity helps.

GAL Went for a walk outside after kids went to sleep tonight. We live in a remote area in the woods. Best 30 minutes of my last week, just clearing my headspace while dusk turned to darkness. I felt great about this.

Also decided to go shop for some new clothes tomorrow. This is new for me, in the past I have relied on my W alot. I have a lot of old, shabby looking shirts so a wardrobe improvement is long overdue.

Detach W asked me if I received a b-day card from her D’d friend who I believe is her closest confidante in this ordeal. I said, “Yes” then paused and said “She sends me a card every year, she is so thoughtful. Have you heard from her recently?” Then just listened. Not sure how well I did here.

W also mentioned she is trying to contact MC’s but having no luck finding availability. I said, “OK” and that was that.

180s I am still confused here as many newbies are. On the one hand, I need to 180 from attempting to “fix” things and have R talks. On the other hand, I have also been accused at times of being distant and withholding affection.

I get really confused on 180s. It seems like there are a few categories:
- Obviously toxic behaviors (abuse, etc.).
- Behaviors which may be viewed as toxic by your spouse, but not yourself -> what do you do here?
- Ways to improve (chores, becoming a better parent, etc.)
- Conflicting behaviors (don’t chase, but don’t be too distant) -> very confusing to us newbies I think

Anyways - my biggest 180 is just not bringing up the state of our M. I have the constant worry that I am making a huge mistake by not trying one more calm approach, but I’m going with it.

Overall today was a good day, for me. I’m not worried about whether it impacted my M, at least not today. Changing up little things felt great. Not much of an opportunity to work on Boundaries or Validation. PMA is a work in progress.

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I feel for you unchien,

This is a very confusing process. I think the amount of time involved in it is what really makes it so hard.

The more I learn, and learn what's coming...... the more I realize that to truly detach will require getting really, really pissed off.

The nice guy must die.

-SoloFlex

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U,

What are examples of behaviors you w views as toxic but you do not?

Do you share of the chores and child care but no more.

You can't give your W too much space at this point and time.

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Originally Posted by LH19
What are examples of behaviors you w views as toxic but you do not?

One example (from months ago) would be trying to talk about affection or intimacy in an open, loving way. Just raising the topic made her feel shamed, blamed, and stressed out. Was this due to my prior actions? It’s a chicken-and-egg thing... I feel like she never felt comfortable discussing these things. Before kids it was no problem because we were both happy with our intimacy. Of course once I did bring it up and she didn’t respond, I spiraled into excessive reassurance seeking which was clearly toxic. But before then not toxic. Even in MC it was clear she was just uncomfortable talking about it. It’s my 5LL.... just a tough situation.

There’s other things I would call differences of opinion but not toxic. Housework is a big one. I feel like I do my fair share at this point. I won’t go into it too much... the FT/SAH split the last 2 years has really tested us. I’ve made some incremental improvements in both what I do and my general mindset. I’m much more likely now to see something that needs doing, and just do it. No asking W. we finally have a twice-monthly house cleaner which I have pushed for for years.

Other stuff? Once a MLC/WAS is angry I think even innocuous things can be viewed as toxic.

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Hey U!

For your question regarding emotional health, there was a combination of things I did, and still continue to do so.

The first plan of attack was IC. My IC was helpful, but not as helpful as I wanted. But at the same time I probably had unrealistic expectations of IC curing my emotional problems. Talking to her allowed me to really figure out what some of my problem behaviors were and then I did a lot of internal reflection to see the root causes of it.

I'll give you one concrete example.

Whenever my kids didn't do as I asked them, I would feel disrespected. When exW wouldn't do things the way I wanted or messed up some sort of system, I would feel disrespected. It was as dumb as not putting dishes in the dishwasher right or meddling in the kitchen when I was cooking.

My IC challenged me, very graciously, about the concept of disrespect. She just asked me to consider why I felt disrespected. And then took on the role of the kids or my exW and played what they might be thinking or doing. I didn't like getting challenged at first. But as we dug deeper, it came down to my need to control the environment I was around. The control gave me a sense of stability. Then we went deeper to understand why I needed to feel that level of control. It came down to my childhood traumas of abandonment and neglect from both parents and how I have always living in survival mode. My survival mode required me to have control so I didn't feel destabilized like when I was a child and a youth. IC made me take a wider perspective, but she did it gradually over time by picking my arguments and thoughts apart slowly so that I could see differently.

And then once I knew why I was having these behaviors, I started experimenting with taking different approaches that would require me to let go control. And I did that gradually and it was kinda maddening at first. But over time my kids relaxed around me. They saw that I was more predictable in my emotional reactions to adverse things. I also relaxed and it improved my ability to deal with my emotions and understand them. My survival strategy had been to suppress emotions and this allowed me to slowly let them out and manage them.

There is a quote by Viktor Frankl that I live by and it goes something like this: Between stimulus and response there is space. In that space is our power to choose our response. In our response lies our growth and our freedom.

I put that into practice and I do it every day now. It doesn't mean I don't feel the emotion or understand it, but I have the power to choose how to react to it. This has been a game changer for me.

Another thing that helped my emotional health in tandem with this work and personal reflections was to engage in meditation. I aim to do at least 60 minutes a day. Again, this has been a game changer.

Other books/works that have helped me:

Emotional Agility by Susan David
The Work by Byron Katie - you can find her stuff online for free

Reading biographies of high achievers - Rich Roll (Finding Ultra) & David Goggins (Can't Hurt Me).

Listening to a lot of podcasts - Rich Roll, Impact Theory, Gary Vee, Finding Mastery, Aubrey Marcus etc.

You have to go do the internal deep work. What are your emotional stop gaps from life? Work with someone who can help you uncover these things and then outside of IC sessions, take the time to reflect and parse through those experiences. I kept a journal that helped me put down thoughts on paper. I thought it was a useless exercise, but again very very helpful. I gained insights from it that I didn't even know.

So, it's a mix of a lot of different things.


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Maika,

Thank you for the detailed reply.

For IC - What is/was your IC's area of focus or specialty? I started going last fall to an IC specializing in CBT, because of my anxiety about my M. Now that I am transitioning to focusing on the upcoming BD, and DB'ing, I am considering whether I should change to a MFT, or someone with a different focus. Someone who can help me work on myself, and also get through the pains of the D.

I also agree I need to work on the emotional stop gaps in my life. I am starting to connect some of the dots, but I feel like I need to do deeper work. And I am a bit frustrated that most of the dot-connecting is coming on my own time, and not in IC.

Thank you for sharing your personal examples. I like that Viktor Frankl quote. It is so easy to become impulsive when emotions run high, rather than taking that brief moment to consider how to react (if at all).

In my case, I see 2 major problematic behavioral patterns that have driven a wedge in our M.

One is that I sought reassurance, and responded to my W distancing herself (stimulus) by ramping up my reassurance seeking (response) even when she explicitly asked me to stop. These episodes were emotionally abusive. In retrospect, my need for reassurance goes back to unmet childhood needs with emotionally distant parents. Everything was exacerbated by us moving 18 months ago, where my W did withdraw quite a bit emotionally from the M, and I was looking for more closeness because I felt so guilty about moving. At least that's how I experienced it.

My second problematic behavioral pattern has been "giving space." My W explained in MC that she built up resentment over several things - how I handled issues with my parents, the division of household chores. The counselor even coached her to ask for what she wants, rather than build up resentment. It worked for awhile. But the anger came out a lot. My response to the anger (stimulus) was classic NGS - I would try to do everything exactly as she wanted (response), ask for permission to do chores (to which she would sometimes respond "that's not a priority"). Eventually I tried to approach her about her anger and general prickliness, and she responded by further pushing me away. So I decided upon giving space. She sometimes became angry about how distant I was. I was so confused. It is standard NGS - I was so afraid of my W's reaction that I made things worse.

You mentioned control - I also think many of my behaviors boil down to NGS and control. Doing things with the express intention of pleasing my W, hoping for a specific outcome. Initiating R talks, half convincing myself that I did not have an outcome in mind when of course I did. Covert contracts, etc. And as a father, realizing that sometimes I am trying to control my kids, control what we are going to do on a given day, instead of nurturing them and their creativity. And even worse, trying to control them to do things because that was what my W wanted them to do. Getting frustrated with them on her behalf.

In retrospect, I can see why my W started to view me as a controlling person. She started to accuse me of things that were simply not true - having an affair, being financially controlling.

For respect - I think my problem has been allowing disrespect. I have never respected myself very much in R (again NGS). I understand that one should command respect but I'm really just starting to learn how. My reaction when challenged by another person is to assume I am to blame, that I am at fault, to apologize, to fix it. I get stuck worried about how to react to particular situations, going over scripts in my head. This used to happen in my work life until I realized if I was confident and assured, the words would come naturally and I didn't need to worry all the time. Simplicity.

Thank you for the book recommendations, I ordered one of them already. And I love podcasts for my work commute, so thank you. Too bad there is not a DR/DB podcast!

Re: meditation It sounds like you do silent meditation. I have found silent meditation extremely challenging - even 5 minutes of my monkey mind bouncing around is excruciating. I have a guided meditation app which is much more relaxing, but perhaps not yielding much result-wise other than helping me relax.

Do you have any advice here? Did you have to ease into meditation? Do you find it benefits you more as a relaxation method, or that you have deeper insights (or both)? I have tried several times over the years and just find it very hard to be consistent with a practice even 5 minutes per day.

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I am struggling mightily with intense worry and fear about this upcoming BD.

I'm looking for some advice how to handle myself in a BD situation. I would feel better if I was more confident in my ability to handle the BD - what to say, etc. Then I would worry less about when it's going to happen, or what W will say or do, or if I will be served D papers at the same time.

All I have so far is:

"OK. I understand you want a D. It is not what I want."

"I need some time to think about this."

My goals here are not to save the M. They are:

- Respond neutrally and respectfully
- Stand up for myself (self-respect) and my kids
- Feel confident I can handle anything thrown my way

I find my brain spinning about all the things that may come up.

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U,

“ This is not what I want but I understand that this is what you want and I won’t stand in your way.” Then I would leave the house Incase you have an emotional breakdown.

There is no sense saying I need time to think about this. You have no say in the matter if she wants to D you.

I can promise you that everything that is spinning in your head is way worse then how everything plays itself out.

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I second what LH has said. Way worse in your head compared to how it will play out.

My IC was CBT. I am not sure if a MFT would help in your case, but I have no direct experience with a MFT counselor. You may want to try it to see if it's a good fit. I'd stick with CBT because you're focusing more on you at this point than her.

Re: meditation - I do a silent meditation where I focus on my breath and let thoughts come and go. Every time my mind wanders, I bring the focus back to the breath. I know it's challenging at first, but it takes time to quiet your mind. If guided meditation works better for you, then do that. I am not ideological about the method of meditation. I just prefer silent. I put on some ambient music to create a conducive environment.

Yes, it is definitely a good de-stress and relaxation method, but I've found it's helped me improve my cognitive and emotional abilities. I am way more calmer and mentally together because of it. I also find it creates a super reflective space afterwards and I am able to think more clearly.

If guided works for you, then stick with it. The key is consistency. You'll see results in a few months down the line. Exercise patience. I'd also so generally that if you're doing less than 20 minutes a day, it will prolong results. However many people aren't able to do 20 minutes out of the gate. I'd start with 5 minutes and then build your capacity. I started with 15 minutes and then slowly built it to 45 minutes. I do 15 minutes in the morning and 45 in the evening.

There's tons of good research and resources out there. I believe Emily Fletcher has a new book out that I've heard is pretty good. I haven't checked it out yet, but I've heard a few podcasts with her and she's really great.

Yuval Noah Harari talks about how meditation changed his life and he was in the same predicament as you - couldn't sit still for 5 minutes. But he built his ability over time. I'd say that be compassionate and take small steps and be consistent. Take in a learning approach and growth mindset. btw, another great book that was a game changer for me is on growth mindset by Carol Dweck. Check it out.

I also had big assists on my parenting approach from books by Robert W. Greene and Shefali Tsabary. I'd definitely endorse them big time.

On another note - don't be a lamb waiting to go to slaughter. Looks like you're in misery just waiting for BD. Just start focusing on yourself and going on your personal journey. You have the advantage of being better prepared for it compared to almost all of us here who got blindsided by it. The more you improve yourself, the better you'll be for whatever comes.

Stay strong; be self-compassionate, and get more self-aware.


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Unchien. You're my hero. This entire thread resonates with me SO much. You're gonna do great.

My IC has a phrase that I have attached myself to:

"Today is Wednesday (or whatever day it is), and whatever happens today, I'm more than capable to figure it out."

Like you, I have attached my Ws affection to my worthiness and man has it gone terribly. It was never meant to be that way. And now unraveling myself from it hurts but is proving most rewarding.

I remember my BD day just 3 weeks ago. My W looked over at me, dropped it and asked, "are you going to be ok?"

And I said with a smile, "I'll figure it out"

I left after the session and wept HARD, but since that day I've practiced the art of walking in only today. And it's working. Not perfectly. But it's working.


H46
W38
M12
T15
D8,S7,S5

11/12/17 "I don't want to be married like this" A began
7/12/18 Confessed A
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4/23/19 "I want a D, but I want to stay until I find a job"
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Originally Posted by si13


Like you, I have attached my Ws affection to my worthiness and man has it gone terribly. It was never meant to be that way. And now unraveling myself from it hurts but is proving most rewarding.



Man, this is exactly how I feel. You put it perfectly. I have attached my Ws affection to my worthiness. That is a terrible place to be.

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Originally Posted by si13
Unchien. You're my hero. This entire thread resonates with me SO much. You're gonna do great.

My IC has a phrase that I have attached myself to:

"Today is Wednesday (or whatever day it is), and whatever happens today, I'm more than capable to figure it out."

Like you, I have attached my Ws affection to my worthiness and man has it gone terribly. It was never meant to be that way. And now unraveling myself from it hurts but is proving most rewarding.

I remember my BD day just 3 weeks ago. My W looked over at me, dropped it and asked, "are you going to be ok?"

And I said with a smile, "I'll figure it out"

I left after the session and wept HARD, but since that day I've practiced the art of walking in only today. And it's working. Not perfectly. But it's working.


Si13 - Thank you for sharing your story. I also gravitate to your thread. Our sitches share many commonalities.

Being pre-BD, I constantly worry that I am over-DB'ing right now, that I should back off a bit and try to stay a bit more connected to my W. Things are getting more and more awkward between us by the day. We text and talk about our kids almost exclusively. We sleep in the same bed, but always go to bed at different times. Sometimes I think she suspects that I am having an EA/PA. The communication is so broken --- it is so hard to fight off that instinct to want to reach out to her and R-talk.

Then I remind myself -- I wrote 3 letters and 2 e-mails apologizing for so many things - some of them emotionally abusive, some of them misunderstandings. I poured my heart out. I reached out, asking to talk so I could understand her feelings. Crickets.

The only thing giving me any hope is that W is trying to find MC's for us to visit in July. And I know this is likely part of her D timeline.

Any advice here on whether I should DB so hard when I am pre-BD? I know I need to DB for my self-improvement, but for interactions with my W, should I modify my approach?

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U,

You should do what works.

You know pouring out your heart and soul doesn’t work. BTW that only works in the movies.

You could shower her with attention and affection? How would she respond to that?

Or you could giver her time and space to sort through her feelings which is mainly what DB suggests.

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I agree with LH on this.

I know the advice can sound contradictory and I remember that time. I'd say that give her space, but don't go completely dark on her. Don't leave the room if she's there. Be generally polite and if she engages with you, remember to validate and listen. Stay cool calm and upbeat. Your value is not tied to her and your marriage. You are worthy and valuable as a person.

I know it's hard to stay positive and upbeat, but I can tell you that it will make a huge difference - to how you feel and she'll definitely notice. As I said, start your journey for personal growth and keep doing things.

There was a poster here named TxHubby who basically after 2 years of throwing a pity party, got up and got a life. His WW was still at home and doing her thing, but he stopped giving a f#$k. He put his life together, and got in shape and improved his professional career etc. All the while being courteous and polite to his W but not caring whatsoever what she did or thought.

Start living YOUR life. Stop thinking of this as figuring out a tactic that will work. Tactics have a short shelf life. You having a totally different mindset and approach to life will yield in good results whether or not she wants to stick around.


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Originally Posted by LH19
U,

You should do what works.

You know pouring out your heart and soul doesn’t work. BTW that only works in the movies.

True. On the flip side, if your partner closes off their heart and soul entirely, that also doesn't work. Some level of emotional intimacy needs to exist. Right now, she doesn't seem to want it.

Originally Posted by LH19
You could shower her with attention and affection? How would she respond to that?

About 2 weeks ago I considered giving her a simple card. Something along the Iines of: "I care about you, and I'm here for you. I hope we can work to repair and heal things and I want to do my part." Better judgment kicked in and I tore up the card.

I returned from a work trip about a month ago with a simple gift, and she not only said "You don't have to get me a gift" but said it several times.

Before things eroded, I used to stop at the store sometimes to bring her flowers. She would respond frustrated that I didn't tell her I was stopping at the store because I could have also picked up groceries.

Affection is not her LL. Other than a hug when I leave for work (where she almost turns her head a full 180 away from mine), there is no affection. From time to time I've tried just patting her on the back, or rubbing her feet in bed, but she initiates nothing.

Attention doesn't seem like what she wants right now either.

Originally Posted by LH19
Or you could giver her time and space to sort through her feelings which is mainly what DB suggests.

I guess I feel like I'm waffling between 2 extremes and maybe there is some middle ground. Maybe she read my apology letters as this extreme over-the-top out-pouring, and then I went full DB the past couple weeks. Time and space could be read as punishment. I don't know.

Limbo is a super-confusing place, especially when you throw in the accusations of emotional abuse, some of which are true, some of which are not. When every attempt to communicate you have to worry you will be documented, that you are being analyzed, that she may use this as some piece of evidence later... it is emotionally exhausting. My trust in my W has eroded. I think she is being secretive. She's on her phone a lot. I'm on my phone a lot. Honestly, I don't see us getting through this without MC, so maybe DB until MC is the right choice. I would hate to look back and regret that I didn't do more to try to reconnect, especially since this erosion has been going on for months, but I just don't know how to do that. I am working hard on validating when we do talk, which is maybe one way the door may re-open again in the future. OK now I'm just rambling...

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I returned from a work trip about a month ago with a simple gift, and she not only said "You don't have to get me a gift" but said it several times.


Doing something as simple as this is what helped me get the BD. IMO It's because she sees it as you trying to get her to want what YOU want her to want, and not what she wants.

Quote

Before things eroded, I used to stop at the store sometimes to bring her flowers.


I cant tell you what to do, U. But I can tell you that doing this about 3 months ago (preDB) was an absolute disaster for me.

Quote

Attention doesn't seem like what she wants right now either.


I'm in the same boat so I've been letting W talk to me when she wants. I made it clear in the BD that she could talk to me no matter what it was. I said it only once. She did hear it.

It's the only thing that has "worked" (I know DB is not about that). It is very little conversation, very sporadic. It lets me see just how far the M has eroded in her mind and lets me evaluate it from a different viewpoint.

Right now I'm aiming for calming the stormy seas. Once that happens, if it does, I can take baby steps to seeing if we can be friends again.

Originally Posted by LH19
Or you could giver her time and space to sort through her feelings which is mainly what DB suggests.

I guess I feel like I'm waffling between 2 extremes... [/quote]

I feel your pain. This will be in the background for a while. But it gets less over time.

Quote

Limbo is a super-confusing place, especially when you throw in the accusations of emotional abuse, some of which are true, some of which are not. When every attempt to communicate you have to worry you will be documented, that you are being analyzed, that she may use this as some piece of evidence later... it is emotionally exhausting. My trust in my W has eroded. I think she is being secretive. She's on her phone a lot. I'm on my phone a lot. Honestly, I don't see us getting through this without MC, so maybe DB until MC is the right choice. I would hate to look back and regret that I didn't do more to try to reconnect, especially since this erosion has been going on for months, but I just don't know how to do that. I am working hard on validating when we do talk, which is maybe one way the door may re-open again in the future. OK now I'm just rambling...


It's hard to know what is the right thing to do. I trusted my gut and did things the old way for a long time and got negative results and excruciating pain. I started doing some 180s and got a few limited neutral results - but way better than any pain in months. Time will tell if it will stick or not.

Hang in there, man.

Stay strong, stay calm, get grounded.

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Originally Posted by unchien
About 2 weeks ago I considered giving her a simple card. Something along the Iines of: "I care about you, and I'm here for you. I hope we can work to repair and heal things and I want to do my part." Better judgment kicked in and I tore up the card.

One thing I can promise you, SHE KNOWS YOU ARE THERE FOR HER AND YOU CARE ABOUT HER.

Originally Posted by unchien
I returned from a work trip about a month ago with a simple gift, and she not only said "You don't have to get me a gift" but said it several times.

You are not listening to her. She doesn't want you to buy her gifts because it makes her feel guilty that she doesn't have feelings for you right now.

Originally Posted by unchien
Before things eroded, I used to stop at the store sometimes to bring her flowers. She would respond frustrated that I didn't tell her I was stopping at the store because I could have also picked up groceries.

Why would you keep doing this when she responded this way?

Originally Posted by unchien
Attention doesn't seem like what she wants right now either.

DING DING DING we have a winner! Give her time and space.

Originally Posted by unchien
I guess I feel like I'm waffling between 2 extremes and maybe there is some middle ground. Maybe she read my apology letters as this extreme over-the-top out-pouring, and then I went full DB the past couple weeks. Time and space could be read as punishment. I don't know. .

Now you are just making excuses to pursue her. Again you are not listening to her and only care about your needs.

Originally Posted by unchien
I would hate to look back and regret that I didn't do more to try to reconnect, especially since this erosion has been going on for months, but I just don't know how to do that.

Look man, I know this is extremely difficult for you right now and you are trying to do the right thing but unfortunately you are very needy and are making things way worse. If you don't start taking the advice given here your situation may reach a point of no return.

If you love her and I truly believe you do. Give her time and space to sort out her feelings. She has to choose to want to be with you. You cannot reconnect with her right now.

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Originally Posted by IronWill
I'm in the same boat so I've been letting W talk to me when she wants. I made it clear in the BD that she could talk to me no matter what it was. I said it only once. She did hear it.

It's the only thing that has "worked" (I know DB is not about that). It is very little conversation, very sporadic. It lets me see just how far the M has eroded in her mind and lets me evaluate it from a different viewpoint.

A big problem that occurs is it takes awhile to understand and truly implement DB. What you just described as not DB is totally DB. When your spouse approaches you to talk you make eye contact, listen and validate.

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Originally Posted by Maika
Start living YOUR life. Stop thinking of this as figuring out a tactic that will work. Tactics have a short shelf life. You having a totally different mindset and approach to life will yield in good results whether or not she wants to stick around.

Maika - thank you, especially for making me aware that I need this fundamental change to how I approach life. This is what I need, I know it. Before finding this forum, I was a mess - all the self-help books, IC, and introspection was not helping me come to this realization.

Originally Posted by IronWill
Doing something as simple as this is what helped me get the BD. IMO It's because she sees it as you trying to get her to want what YOU want her to want, and not what she wants.

I cant tell you what to do, U. But I can tell you that doing this about 3 months ago (preDB) was an absolute disaster for me.

I made it clear in the BD that she could talk to me no matter what it was. I said it only once. She did hear it.

It's the only thing that has "worked" (I know DB is not about that). It is very little conversation, very sporadic. It lets me see just how far the M has eroded in her mind and lets me evaluate it from a different viewpoint.

IronWill - I've stopped the pursuing/chasing behavior for a good 3 weeks now. Mother's Day was tough but I think I made sensible choices for the gifts there (way scaled down from prior years, almost 100% focused on the kids).

I made it clear in my letters that I am here to talk. So yes my instinct to give her a card to say "I'm here for you" is just continuing the neediness and pursuing. I'm really glad I didn't do it -- it took a lot of restraint at the time.

Also you are right that DB'ing now for about 3 weeks I am beginning to have some perspective and distance from the M, more detached. It feels surreal and strange, but also kind of liberating.

Originally Posted by LH19
You are not listening to her. She doesn't want you to buy her gifts because it makes her feel guilty that she doesn't have feelings for you right now.

LH19 - I agree 100% on all points.

Originally Posted by LH19
Look man, I know this is extremely difficult for you right now and you are trying to do the right thing but unfortunately you are very needy and are making things way worse. If you don't start taking the advice given here your situation may reach a point of no return.

If you love her and I truly believe you do. Give her time and space to sort out her feelings. She has to choose to want to be with you. You cannot reconnect with her right now.

I think this qualifies as a 2x4?! Keep them coming, please! I love brutal honesty.

You are right about my neediness. Fortunately the last 2-3 weeks, since finding this forum, I have (mostly) stopped acting upon my misguided instincts. A lot of the things I ask about (Should I say this? Should I do that?) I quickly realize thanks to the incredible people on this forum that I need to STOP. I'm posting a ton here, partly for advice, partly as a therapeutic way to let it out so that I don't go home and let emotions take hold and then do something incredibly stupid like initiate an R talk.

I feel like I've made a lot of positive changes:
- No R talk
- No MC talk unless she initiates. I respond "OK"
- No unnecessary texts. No ILY, No "How are you?' No "What are you up to?". Just kids and logistics.
- GAL - at night, taking walks, restarting an old hobby.
- PMA - maximize the quality of my time I spend with my kids
- Tons of validation. Eye contact, restating her feelings, no subject changes, no problem-solving.
- No future talk. I literally have no idea what we are doing this summer. Normally we plan out trips, etc.
- No asking whether certain chores should be done. Just doing them, as I see them needing done.
- No displays of emotions - sadness, anger, frustration. Even-steven. Let them out when driving to/from work, or on walks.
- No affection seeking. We are down to a daily hug when I leave for work - if she initiates, I reciprocate, otherwise, I leave.
- No hanging around hoping to spend time together. Some nights we end up watching a TV show together.
- No questions about what she did today, who she is texting, has she heard from so-and-so, etc.
- Boundaries - the other day, she was worked up about the kids acting up while she was watching them, but I also had to start dinner. So I just said, "I can help watch the kids, or I can start dinner, but I cannot do both." Rather than letting myself get stressed out trying to please her.

Lots to work on still.

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I am the king of brutal honesty lol.

Those changes all sound fantastic! No back sliding!

Are you in the gym? If not, look into joining. Physical exercise is a must.

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No gym due to time constraints with the kids. In the past, I have done a bodyweight fitness program at home with a pull-up bar and some gym rings. I need to restart that program, it also eats up the uncomfortable nighttime hours after my kids are asleep. At the moment, going for walks at night is my form of exercise.

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Time to vent... rough night... this is going to be a scattered mess of a post...

So W has been texting a couple friends about her situation. One said, “He is just losing it!” Another said “I’m so sorry about your sitch.” This was during a night in which I was in the guest area doing a hobby of mine. I don’t want to share too many details, including why these texts were apparent to me. It was a huge accident on W’s part, I was not snooping. This was about 10 days ago. Maybe DB’ing over the last 10 days is helping, I really have no idea. At the same time tonight W was fairly friendly to me, cordial, made me a snack. Maybe just keeping the peace, who knows.

It’s taking everything I have not to call out my W at this point. I’m so worried she is trying to document my every little move for custody or financial reasons. She took a picture of a post-it I wrote 3 weeks ago that literally said “BOK” — (yes, it meant “Be Okay”) and uploaded it to the cloud. One of my friends (hit with a BD divorce with 3 young kids also several years ago) advised me to sit tight, don’t respond, just keep breathing and act normal. No need to accelerate a process that took, beginning to end, 2 years for him. Also told me he is a much happier person today. And that she can’t take my kids away, what to expect through the process, etc. Just so... frustrating.

I’ve had about 3 hours now to decompress a bit. I was oh-so-close to just telling my W I know what is going on. To tell her that I knew in March, that is why I pulled over the car to try to talk, why I wrote 3 over-the-top apology letters, why I’ve tried so hard to communicate, and now why I’ve backed off. I want her to understand... but I know she never will. She fell out of love, never told me, and then acted like I was crazy for trying to win her back. I made mistakes... she also made mistakes. Tonight this feels like the last straw for me, that maybe now I can move on. We’ll see when I wake up tomorrow.

She still talks about wanting to go to MC in July. No doubt this is a plot to deliver the news easy. I know there can’t be any other plan at this point. DB’ing for 6 weeks isn’t going to change her mind.

I feel like I could accept this more easily if her narrative in her head wasn’t so far off what I think has happened. She cut me off, never tried to communicate or talk. Just gave me anger and the silent treatment for 2 months. Then when I understood what was going on, and tried to “fix” things, I screwed up and made her think I was nuts with pulling over the car and the letters and apologizing. I own my responsibility, but I just don’t get after 15 years together why she would turn like that. I get that I screwed up with the begging and pleading but still... why am I nuts for wanting to save our M?

None of this makes any sense to me, and probably never will. I don’t understand why we can’t try MC for another 3-6 months, and honestly attack our issues as a couple, and see where that leads. Maybe we D. At least we tried. I’m sure she thinks we already did but I just didn’t listen or change. She has gotten so angry when I mentioned staying at home when kids are sick - it’s almost visceral, like “Oh you’re doing that now but you couldn’t do it before” I act calmly when this happens, and say “Yes, you’re right, I didn’t do that before, and I’m sorry. I did not make family my priority. I intend to do this going forward.” But the anger... it is so telling of where I stand.

Financially this will be a complete mess - we will have to sell the house, and living in an expensive area of the country means the standard of living for everyone involved will drop significantly. My W will have to work more than we had planned. Kids? Who knows how they will handle this, I know it can go both ways. There will be battles about vacations, and who gets which holidays & birthdays, and what are the best parenting decisions for our kids?

Anyways, I managed not to react tonight, not to do anything really. I’ll count it as a Win. Worked on a home improvement task, had a short convo with W about my upcoming work travel. I validated, probably not as good as usual. She asked “Are you okay?” Which is a signal that I am quieter than usual, but I really didn’t let on. Probably could have had more of a PMA.

Thanks for reading this disorganized jumble - it’s a marathon not a sprint, I know I need to let my emotions re-balance. Might be a good thing I am on work travel next week, time to read some books on the plane and get my head straight, and get some distance from this mess. Going to miss the kiddos though...

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U,

As men we think logically. If we just went to MC for 3-6 months we can fix the marriage. We are both going to suffer financially if we get divorced. Who gets the kids on the holidays?

As women they think emotionally. I am not happy. It is Mr. U that is making mr unhappy. I will never be happy again with him again. That's how she feels now. That can and most likely will change down the road.

Did you ever hear the saying "if you love someone then set them free and if they come back it was meant to be"?

That is DB in a nutshell. The only thing missing is the part where you work on yourself and become a man only a fool would leave.

Lastly, it is extremely rare when a father is not awarded 50% custody when he seeks it.

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Originally Posted by LH19
As men we think logically. If we just went to MC for 3-6 months we can fix the marriage. We are both going to suffer financially if we get divorced. Who gets the kids on the holidays?

As women they think emotionally. I am not happy. It is Mr. U that is making mr unhappy. I will never be happy again with him again. That's how she feels now. That can and most likely will change down the road.


Gotta say, this sums up my situation the past few months really well.

U, my W did the same thing. Kept everything bottled up, in her own words "grew cold and hard," decided everything was my fault and she was done without ever once speaking to me openly about any of it. Silent treatment for 2 months, I wanted to know what was going on, and by then she wasn't reachable.

I'll give you the advice I have struggled to follow myself. Listen to the wise elders. DB: GAL as much as possible, 180s, detach. You can't control what she's going to do as far as D. Try not to obsess about it.


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Oct '18: Fantasy affair with OW1 (yes, W)
Feb '19: Inseparable from new lesbian BFF
Still live together but a lot of tension
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Originally Posted by LH19
U,

As men we think logically. If we just went to MC for 3-6 months we can fix the marriage. We are both going to suffer financially if we get divorced. Who gets the kids on the holidays?

As women they think emotionally. I am not happy. It is Mr. U that is making mr unhappy. I will never be happy again with him again. That's how she feels now. That can and most likely will change down the road.

Did you ever hear the saying "if you love someone then set them free and if they come back it was meant to be"?

That is DB in a nutshell. The only thing missing is the part where you work on yourself and become a man only a fool would leave.

Lastly, it is extremely rare when a father is not awarded 50% custody when he seeks it.


LH19,

One question. You say: “That’s how she feels now. That can and most likely will change down the road.”

Can you please elaborate?

I think you are saying: Post-D, she will probably have conflicting feelings.
I think you are NOT saying: Her feelings may change and you still have a chance to save your M.

I hang on every thread of hope (as you can see) - and my gut right now says DB as hard as I can and set my W free. Completely free.

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U,

I’m a very straight shooter and unfortunately based on how these sitches are so scripted and by the book she is most likely going to D you. The problem most newbies have is they think that means game over. It doesn’t, you can absolutely recon after D and there is a high probability that if you do the work and fix your neediness you will get a chance to recon.

Just don’t be surprised that by the time this happens you are no longer interested.

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Originally Posted by LH19
U,

I’m a very straight shooter and unfortunately based on how these sitches are so scripted and by the book she is most likely going to D you. The problem most newbies have is they think that means game over. It doesn’t, you can absolutely recon after D and there is a high probability that if you do the work and fix your neediness you will get a chance to recon.

Just don’t be surprised that by the time this happens you are no longer interested.

LH19, I hear you loud and clear.

Re: Recon - It helps me to assume it is Game Over and give up on recon. I fluctuate hour by hour, but those times where I consider letting go of the rope completely coincide with peak PMA. This morning I feel great - had a weird dream that my W rolled over and cuddled me in bed, and I felt these warm, positive vibes. Then I woke up and I was angry with myself like... you can't just give in like that! You can only save yourself! And I felt good, really good.

Long-term... that person I want to become (resolving NGS, living in the present, owning my issues) would not accept recon without major changes by my W. We would need to rebuild trust and establish healthy communication, and develop skills to work through conflict as a couple. Is that going to happen? Probably not... I'm sure this is a familiar script here...

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U. I feel like I am reading my own words as you write them. I am dying inside, hoping to see results immediately after I DB. I want SO bad to have this self-confidence that would absolutely slay her and whether or not she comes to her senses, I could take it or leave it. That's how I WANT to feel about myself.

But I miss her like crazy. It's been 18 months since we've even touched each other (other than a hug) and I'm starting to become resentful about all she's taking me for granted.

But alas, I have glimmers of understanding this. I have but 1 life to live and I only have myself. I need to confidently stand for myself and my kids - I will be the best I can be, not affected by the affirmation or lackthereof by any woman, man or situation.

I want to reconcile. I want to be married. But the very best thing that could happen to me is to stand on my own 2 feet no matter what the future holds.

And then I miss her. I roll over and wish she was there like she used to be . It [censored] man, I know.


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T15
D8,S7,S5

11/12/17 "I don't want to be married like this" A began
7/12/18 Confessed A
10/1/19 EA still happening with 2
4/23/19 "I want a D, but I want to stay until I find a job"
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si13 -

That person we both want to be there is gone. It hurts worse than anything, but eventually we have to accept it. Part of the grieving process.

As for wanting immediate results: DB, to me, is about achieving results FOR YOU first and foremost. I know that's not the original intent by MWD, and she suggests adjusting your DB strategies every week or two depending on the results you achieve. But for most cases like ours... I think we have to more or less ignore results and outcomes (as far as your R with your W). Focus on the results for yourself. It's not about your W. There is no magic bullet. You aren't going to strike upon some magic DB combo that restores her to some earlier state. Try things, experiment, but do it for you.

Hang in there buddy.

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U,

Great post above. I think you are getting the hang of it.

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U - let me give you a glimpse into a not so distant future.

It is almost 2 years since BD for me. I was devastated, blindsided and thought my life was over. My exW didn't want a chance to repair the M and didn't want to go to MC. I asked her three times to reconsider and the last time she told me that this was 'permanent'. To not be even allowed a chance stung like nothing else. Like our 12 year relationship had no value for her to salvage, not to mention 2 kids now in the mix.

I also suffered from NGS. I was hugely conflict-avoidant. I was depressed.

exW threw some breadcrumbs and I took the bait and suffered basically another crushing blow of BD. Even though the board here told me exactly what was going to happen, I didn't trust and had the need to find out for myself. And folks here were absolutely right about how it went down. I put myself through unnecessary pain to get 'confirmation' that she was done.

But after that I put DB into practice. I didn't look back. I did the internal work, went GAL, confronted the pain and my demons and started on a path of personal growth. It was tough and I went through bouts of hopelessness and grieving the loss of my time with the kids. Having the kids half the time nearly destroyed me. I remember sitting in my home without the kids and asking myself - what the hell am I supposed to do now?

Fast forward to now. I am emotionally stable and mature, mentally strong, and I have great clarity about myself and also what I want in a partner. I put in the work. exW hasn't put in the work. I can clearly now see her emotional issues and how she's basically still in the same place, just with new window dressing that covers up her failings.

If she came for recon now, my answer would be a solid NO. I could never in a million years have believed 2 years ago that I would have that answer to her. Life without her was inconceivable to me then. Now, I know what I want and I will not settle for less. She is not the partner I want. She would have to do tremendous amount of personal work, gain humility, let go of entitlement, and be genuinely remorseful for me to even TRY. And i emphasize 'try' because I can't guarantee that I'd take her back even if she did all the work.

Am I placing too much burden on her? Not at all. I went and did all of that by MYSELF without any help. the support I got from family and some friends was important, but when I rested my head on the pillow, it was me and my mind. hence my tagline here - no one is coming to save you! No matter what support you have, you have to actually put in the work and fight for yourself - no one else is capable of doing it for you.

I know this future may seem ridiculous to you right now. It did to me. But I saved myself in this process and DB and this community was instrumental in my path.

So, when we say that invest in yourself and you'll be fine either way, we are speaking from experience. Don't worry about any specific tactics and being able to achieve it with perfection. Invest in yourself and it's all gonna be gravy and champagne.

You got this!


No one is coming to save you!

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Random question here about upcoming MC:

Back in April when I was apologizing profusely in letters, I also asked W (via e-mail) if we could go back to MC sooner than July. She never responded. I was making classic mistakes here, over apologizing, and in writing, so she can go back to the letters every single day if she wants.

I also asked her to speak in person, as I wanted to briefly follow up to my letters with an in-person apology. She said, in effect, "Maybe in front of your IC". Admiral Ackbar! I declined, and have not followed up.

Maybe 2 weeks ago she texted me to see if I wanted to have that talk in front of IC, and/or start MC in June or July. I said, "I'm interested in MC." At this point I was up to speed on DB basics.

Lately she's told me a couple times she's having trouble contacting MCs with availability. I've mostly responded with an "OK" or a shrug. She asked me to see if my IC had any recommendations, and he did give me a couple names.

I'm aware MC is likely going to be the BD, at which point I plan to respond briefly ("not what I want, but I won't stand in your way"). I'm not looking for closure. If W is planning to discuss in MC how to tell the kids, how to co-parent, etc., I might be okay with that but I figure I will need some time post-BD to gather my thoughts. Honestly I feel like I deserve the time to consider what I think is best in that scenario.

So basically... I'm completely lukewarm about MC (at best). I have 2 names from my IC.

What would be the best response here? Text her the names? Wait awhile? Say nothing, and let her drive finding the MC? She says nothing about wanting to work on the M, which is not how things were during our first MC search last summer.

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Unichen. you have no idea how much I resonate with you exactly what you're saying I had a response written up this morning to send to you but I wanted to revise it first. I feel that you and I are in the same exact situation is being accused of the same exact things and being a manipulated in the same exact way even though they accuse us of doing the same. I'm sorry but I'm not buying all of this emotionally abusive bull$hit. I have a question for you do you feel or think that your wife is manipulating you and holding control over you? my other question is how emotionally volatile have you been and is it getting too far and few in between as time passes? I was doing good for about 2 or 3 weeks and then I had another relationship talk and a minor freak out over absolutely nothing. Just before I went to therapy the next day I figured out why it's because I'm constantly misunderstood by W, and I'm frustrated as f@!×. not because I'm not getting the results that I want, that the house is going up for sale that were moving and separating, but because I feel like anything and everything I could say will never get acknowledged, my own point of view will never be seen or heard, I could own up some 1,000 of my mistake on the list, and they will never figure out what they contributed to the downfall, and it won't be our place to point out either.

after taking a lot of stock of our marital history I realize our communication issues we have been passing right over at one another since the beginning of the marriage, and even parts while dating. I came to realize she had relationship issues with her father and relating to him and probably doesn't understand men too well, despite having three brothers. what I see and have always seen as somewhat of a feminist mindset. My wife has been documenting my behaviors too, she is after all the behavioral specialist. What the kick in the pants is she fails to see her own inside relationships. She thinks she's a pathetic but she's not, she wants to be seen and heard but she sees no one else. She doesn't make herself vulnerable and keeps certain thoughts private especially with journaling. I've come to realize that these resentments that she Harbors she's not only done it with me but ex-boyfriend's too. Her and her family insisted on inviting my brother's ex-wife to our wedding to watch my nieces who are the flower girls and it created a big Fiasco especially because my brother had a very nasty divorce with the woman. They wanted to copy and paste their ideals to take precedence over our situation of my family. My family is a bit dysfunctional and I'm a product of that yes. I come from a conflict family but we lay all our feelings out on the table and resolve things whether it's loud or not. Her family avoids conflict like the plague and pussyfoot surround everyone yet all the while talking behind their backs. There was so many red flags with the beginning of our marriage, from her side and mine, yeah we both chose to ignore it. Because I come from a conflict family I could be taken as emotionally abusive. If you add her stuff with her father being an alcoholic and emotionally removed from his daughter. You can apparently see why she doesn't understand men, and take someone of a strong feminist position, especially when her mother who was awesome, but was always in a constant state of denial of the father's anxiety issues ( drinking smoking excetera.) He's a Vietnam vet now that has dementia. The mother always want along with what he decided said and shows because that's how she was raised. So what my wife Wanda being is a bit of a blend between the two but yet being somewhat of a feminist mindset. She will side with women over her own husband even strangers. I can give you a justification list of hers that's a mile long, that she keeps repeating to me, that she keeps observing and recording. But I've been doing my own observations and writing things down as well. they can't see themselves they won't see themselves and you can't point that out to them. Let them go. If you want to spend your time compulsively thinking about all these things like me just to figure out how to be better in relationships, where things went wrong, how to improve on them, learn, grow, etc, i can understand that, although not healthy. That's why you GAL. Everyone needs introspectiveness and self discovery to a degree. Let go of the idea of who you thought they were both so they're obviously not who you think they are, especially now. They don't see a future with you 5 years 10 years or 30 years from now, and they don't care about past history or experiences, it no longer means or has sentimental value to them any longer.

With humility I've looked at my own side of things and she hasn't but I've actually come to the point now where I don't like what I see now, don't want to trust, dont want to pursue, and don't want to reconcile. I see selfishness coming from someone who was never selfish & always puts others first, and now regrets it and is becoming selfish as a way of saving herself and her identity.

I've realized that we were compatible enough, and had enough discovery, common interest, and love to last 10 years. We were both working on ourselves when we met and we both stopped and she has mentioned that to me and wish that we didn't stop. I realized that the communications the common interest, the complacency of marriage, the emotional and mental compatibility all went out the window from M day 1.

I'm getting my papers in affairs in order and I'm pulling the trigger 100%, wish me luck and I'll let everyone know if I change my mind again. At the very least I'll have everything ready to go. I don't like this person that I see and I don't like what I've become in front of and to this person. Go and find yourself Unichen. if we have to think about things compulsively to find answers then do it but balance it out with some happiness even if it's temporary

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U,

I would ask her what her intentions are before committing to going. I’m sure your IC and books can help you with what to tell the kids.

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IHCLACS - I will respond more thoughtfully later but real quick:

Forget the narrative in her head.
She could think you are Charles Manson, who cares? Own your 50% responsibility.

Accept that you will be always misunderstood by your W.
I hate this part too. This is what drives me in my weaker moments to want to R talk with her. Or just to tell her "I know you are planning D." It's part of the grieving process, but we need to reach acceptance.

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Originally Posted by LH19
U,

I would ask her what her intentions are before committing to going. I’m sure your IC and books can help you with what to tell the kids.

Yeah, it's a weird one to figure out. It is a form of R talk. And I already know her intentions, don't I? If she wants to BD in MC, rather than at home, well, I'm not going to run from it.

So I'm not sure about asking her intentions, honestly.

As of right now, I *would* want to work with her to align how we deal with the kids. At least as best as we can. I'd have to be careful that it isn't just a way for her to exert control. I think it would serve me well in future custody discussions as well.

Sometimes I wonder if she is going to say (in MC) "We move back to where we came from (2 years ago), or we D". That one's easy - I would absolutely move back, regardless of financial impact, but first we need to work on our M and be on solid ground. And that is going to take ttiiimmme.

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Originally Posted by Maika
So, when we say that invest in yourself and you'll be fine either way, we are speaking from experience. Don't worry about any specific tactics and being able to achieve it with perfection. Invest in yourself and it's all gonna be gravy and champagne.

You got this!

Maika - you inspire me, thank you for sharing so willingly. Stories like yours give us newbies some much-needed strength.

I know I'm not going to be the exception here. I will be going through D and it is going to be painful and difficult. There will be no recon. I'm still grieving this fact, but I know it to be true.

It's premature at this point, but down the road I would like to understand how you adjusted to being a single dad for your kids, and how old your kids were when you started. It honestly terrifies me.

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Originally Posted by IHCLACS
I have a question for you do you feel or think that your wife is manipulating you and holding control over you? my other question is how emotionally volatile have you been and is it getting too far and few in between as time passes?

I only feel manipulated and controlled a bit when it comes to parenting our kids. I feel like my opinions and decisions are not valued. My W gets pretty worked up around them, and in those situations I try to react and resolve the situation. Is that her controlling, or is it my issue because I can't deal with her high-stress? Little of both I guess.

Otherwise I don't really feel manipulated or controlled. I used to more, when I thought that all my sacrifices (letting go of friends and hobbies) were for the sake of my W and my family. But truthfully I made those decisions.

What I really feel is unloved. And it h.u.r.t.s.

For your other question, I have been very emotionally volatile since I realized she was thinking about leaving me. I felt betrayed. I pulled the car over. I poured my heart out in apology after apology letter. Every day I have a 30-45 minute period where I am just floored with anxiety and grief. The difference is that I'm better at restraining myself around my W, at not acting on those emotions. This is where I get stuck a bit, because I feel like "If she only knew that I knew, she might be more understanding of my reactions." But probably not... she is gone already. Somewhere along the way my W crossed the threshold, long before I knew it.

I hope someday the extreme emotions subside. I accept that it's part of the grieving process and it's going to take several months at least. It's normal for me to feel this way. I have a tinge of catastrophic thinking which is not healthy and fuels the extremes, but otherwise I think it's completely okay to have these feelings.

I don't know... I accept what I am facing. I don't have a choice. That pain and hurt floods me every single day, and all I can do is accept it, endure it, and hopefully get a little bit stronger each day. After about 2 months, I can't tell that I feel any better when the flood comes, I'll be honest. It makes me want to panic, I just want to talk to somebody, I just want to resolve my pain, feel a little better. But at least I don't go running to my W for soothing anymore.

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U - best to feel the pain and not block it. But don't live in it. Having issues with that today, big time.

Also - very important for W to not see you feeling this way. I got home today in anguish after losing it in IC then again on the way home in traffic. I open the door and W was home. made the pain intensify so I took the dog for a walk to calm down and get my head back on straight.

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Originally Posted by IronWill
U - best to feel the pain and not block it. But don't live in it. Having issues with that today, big time.

Also - very important for W to not see you feeling this way. I got home today in anguish after losing it in IC then again on the way home in traffic. I open the door and W was home. made the pain intensify so I took the dog for a walk to calm down and get my head back on straight.


Big time slip today. BIL was visiting the last few days, said goodbye tonight. He started telling me "Hey man both you guys need to be happy" and I was getting choked up and just nodding my head. I was thinking, I may never see this dude again. Probably should have kept my emotions in check and just stopped him and acted all casual. It was a moment of weakness. It was like, this guy sees that we are both unhappy. W was out of the room but clearly within earshot. Now she is acting goofy. I'm aware with her self-diagnosis of me as BPD and an Emotional Abuser that she will think I was splitting. Only thing I said during the trip to BIL was when he asked if we were having more kids, and I just gave him a look. And he remarked a couple times how stressed out my W seemed.

So yeah, that didn't go great. I'm sure she's worried about her family's reaction when the BD happens. It's not like I've ingratiated myself with them in a manipulative way, but I do love them, as flawed as some of the individuals are, moreso than my FOO. I have no master plan to get her family to take sides. I don't really care. I will miss those relationships, but it is what it is.

Obviously BIL doesn't know what has gone on between us behind closed doors. He's not M'd, he has no kids, he doesn't really

At some point soon, I will post here about all the details of our conflict the last 2 years, both what I admit was emotionally abusive, and things I consider not to be abusive, and the in-between stuff that I think is murky. Things just get really weird where I don't think it is clear-cut. But I need to air this out soon, because I am confused. I've read 3 different books about Emotional Abuse in the last 2 months, I've discussed with my IC, with my close friends... and I'm so confused. I think I did a few abusive things, driven by NGS and fear of abandonment. And once that infected our M, a lot of conflict could easily be viewed as Emotional Abuse. I am so afraid of being in denial, or minimizing what I have done, but there are things I've been accused of like financial control which are just flat out not true.

I hear all the time how abusers always claim the issue is communication.... But it's impossible to work through issues with no communication. Affection was a problem - I sought it needily, and agreed to stop. Now... did I punish my W by withholding affection, when we literally had an agreement that I would ask her before I try to hold her hand? And after she says no the first 3 times, and I stop asking, what does that mean? I can tell you... I certainly was not of the mindset of punishing her. I was thinking... I want her to take the lead, she is uncomfortable with me, and maybe we will reach a point where things aren't so weird between us.

Anyways, I guess my position in the M is the same. My W's narrative remains: "I need to BD this Emotional Abuser" as far as I can tell. And I'm smart enough to know that my odds are zero in this case.

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U,

Am I understanding correctly what you're saying? You ask your W three times to hold her hand and she says no so you stop. Then because you don't ask anymore because you were rejected 3 times you feel she views that as punishment and a form of emotional abuse?

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LH,

We had a pursuer-distanced dynamic. I felt neglected. I’d say 2 times I went too far with the pleading when W clearly wanted me to stop. Then some other times I would want to talk about our R, she would distance, and I would get kind of emotionally histrionic. One time I had to go to a separate room because I was crying around my kids. Not proud.

The handholding stuff came in MC afterwards. But yeah as much as I regret the things I did, especially when it spilled over into emotional abuse, I do feel like we had a complete communication barrier that exacerbated things. I dunno - again I know that’s a classic excuse but.... one time I just literally wanted my W to tell me what she wanted. And she said I just want to go to sleep. She never told me. I feel like a little communication would have helped, but also I need to own that my issues and resulting actions were in several instances very hurtful and wrong.

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Sorry a bit more... looking back there were warning signs. The handholding awkwardness was clearly one of them. Maybe my W thought every attempt to initiate affection would lead to me wanting s*x. It just wasn’t true. Sometimes she said “you wouldn’t be satisfied with every day” at a time where we would go 2 months between. Then out of the blue she would say “you are so cold and distant it really [censored]” and then storm off. Yeah I was defensive. But I tried to understand. I read about NVC and EAR listening and tried. I got frustrated sometimes at the complete lack of traction.

I don’t know... physical touch is my LL. If that ends up being the root cause of my D so be it. I have wondered if I should just stay happy in all other ways but forego the physical touch aspect of my M. Why break up what is otherwise a good thing? But I don’t want to live without touch. Yeah it’s not a substitute for feeling loved but it is a fundamental need. It’s okay for me to want affection in my M.

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Originally Posted by LH19
U,

Am I understanding correctly what you're saying? You ask your W three times to hold her hand and she says no so you stop. Then because you don't ask anymore because you were rejected 3 times you feel she views that as punishment and a form of emotional abuse?


I concur with LH here. This is something you may want to think about re-reading.

IMO rehashing every "wrong" thing you did repeatedly will only cause you more chaos. I know because preDB I did it. Over. And over. And over. I stopped talking to W abt that at the end of last year but continually beat myself up internally over and over again. I still do it occasionally but it has diminished post DBing.

My W is either WAS or in MLC or both. She isn't thinking the same way. She is in a very negative space right now. She is focusing on only thr negative aspects of our R, not the positive. We had many more pluses than minuses. As I've grown stronger I've realized that.

Internally on my part I will not allow her to rewrite our history into something it wasn't. I cant tell her that or expect her to understand that. I can only focus on myself, fix the problems I KNOW I had (not the ones created by her being in a negative space) and hope that maybe she might possibly see it. Gradually. Over time.

I recommend you do the same.

PS I know I said it before, but there is no way in [censored] i would go to a MC with a W that didn't want to work on the R.

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Hey U!

My kids were 7 and 5 when BD happened. Due to moving around a lot and my employment not being as concrete and lucrative as exW, I was able to cushion those moves by taking time off work to be with the kids and avoid daycare costs. So, I've had a pretty involved relationship with the kids since the very beginning. I did the stay-at-home-dad thing for a bit and it gave me all the skills to take full-time care of my kids. Now that they're older, it's easier with some things because they are getting more independent.

But as I mentioned, even though I was 'able' to perform all the tasks etc around childcare, I was still not the greatest parent emotionally and mentally with them. I was short with them often and my parenting could've used a lot of improvement. As I took care of my own emotional issues, it had a compounding effect on m parenting in a positive way. I had also mentioned books by Robert W. Greene and Shefali Tsabary really helped me in understanding my role as a parent and also how to engage with my children. I had to unlearn a lot of subconscious parenting things that I was carrying over from my own crappy childhood. This wasn't easy - I went to task on myself and was brutal with myself about it. I had to because the status of my well-being was directly impacting the well-being of my kids. With exW being all WW and entitled etc, I knew that I had to be the solid parent in the equation to create stability, love, and safety in the home for the kids.

I initially did that by generally suppressing my own emotions, but that was just a stop gap and instinctual response. Even though I was making some gains in other areas of my life, the emotional stopgap was holding me back. Life has a way to put your pain upfront and gnaw at you until you break. That happened over a year ago through a very dumb incident that brought grief to my kids. It happened in a public place and I held my emotions in but it was killing me inside to see them be upset. That night, after putting them to bed, I broke down and released what I was holding back. It took a good few days to get it all out, and then a few weeks to parse through it. That was an important breakthrough and I got on the right path to improve my emotional health. That's exactly when Shefali's book helped me and I was able to cultivate my identity as a parent and what I valued with my kids. But, until you get yourself right, you're going to be terrified of being a single parent. The tasks are easy - you can learn them over time and you'll get that. But creating emotional safety and security for your kids is the more paramount issue, which you can do when you get on the path of developing emotional fitness.

Taking a U-turn in my response, you are trying to create connection with your W through vulnerability, and she is rejecting you. Read Brene Brown's book Daring Greatly. Game changer. What you need to understand right now is that your W is not interested in building a connection with you. you can try whatever you want, it's just not going to work. Also, your vulnerability is making you look weak in her eyes. This is the crazy truth about vulnerability I have learned - women want men to be vulnerable, but when men truly are, women lose respect and are disgusted by it. So, the important thing here is to understand how to dose the vulnerability. And that works with someone who is open and receptive to you. Your W isn't right now.

I would highly suggest that you work on your emotional health out of sight from her. Don't become a stoic stone-cold dude, but be more collected and calm even when it's killing you inside. I know that feeling and it was hard to do, but if you want to command her respect, that is one of the things you need to do. As you improve your emotional health, it'll become easier for sure. The LL's as I see right now are inconsequential because she is not open. And you shouldn't have to sacrifice your LL to stay in the M.

I know you want to save the M right now and it's all your focus, but take some time to think what you want in a partner and if she actually meets what you want? What would she need to do to have your partnership? It's all cloudy right now, but ask the right questions to yourself and start formulating honest answers.


No one is coming to save you!

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Originally Posted by Maika


Taking a U-turn in my response, you are trying to create connection with your W through vulnerability, and she is rejecting you. Read Brene Brown's book Daring Greatly. Game changer. What you need to understand right now is that your W is not interested in building a connection with you. you can try whatever you want, it's just not going to work. Also, your vulnerability is making you look weak in her eyes. This is the crazy truth about vulnerability I have learned - women want men to be vulnerable, but when men truly are, women lose respect and are disgusted by it. So, the important thing here is to understand how to dose the vulnerability. And that works with someone who is open and receptive to you. Your W isn't right now.

I would highly suggest that you work on your emotional health out of sight from her. Don't become a stoic stone-cold dude, but be more collected and calm even when it's killing you inside. I know that feeling and it was hard to do, but if you want to command her respect, that is one of the things you need to do. As you improve your emotional health, it'll become easier for sure. The LL's as I see right now are inconsequential because she is not open.



Absolute gold here.

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Thinking a lot about all these responses this morning...

We all tell ourselves stories. A true narcissist will spin the most positive story imaginable. Some of us are overly negative and tell ourselves self-defeating stories. All of these stories have their own truth.

My story does not align with my W's story. I don't know her story. Part of my story is that she chooses not to share, and in withdrawing so far, makes it almost impossible to repair the R. Maybe that's just my story, not hers. I am positive that my narrative and my W's narrative are completely misaligned, and also that they both contain a lot of truth.

We come to DB hoping to change our spouse's narrative. We stick with DB because we realize the fight is to change our own internal narrative, so we can move on. And hopefully our spouse will adapt their own story as well - but they have to do that on their own terms and their own time.

***

I think I made a minor mistake last night. W and I ended up talking for awhile... first about kids and school stuff, then about updates with her family and friends. In all, this was maybe a 1 hour conversation, probably too long. Even at that length, I still ended up being the one to cut it off. I validated, remained friendly, everything was just absolutely fine AOK. Virtually no talk about me. I didn't insert myself into the conversation.

Now I'm thinking... this is exactly what we did for the last several months. Lots of generic "safe" talk topics, almost exclusively about her. I wouldn't say I am in the FriendZone, but I am firmly in the "we only talk about safe topics" zone. I'm not overly analyzing why she does this, it could be several things: she just does it without thinking, she is trying to manage me so I don't feel completely detached and "go bonkers," she is testing my emotional state, she is trying to figure out how I am feeling.

And I'm thinking... if this D happens, I am not going to be there to talk about her family's health issues, or her friends. I just won't. That is something my W will lose. It is a boundary, I have already decided it. I would still talk about our kids with her, at least as far as it pertains to effective co-parenting.

So maybe part of DB at this point should be withdrawing, or shortening up the conversation when it gets to those topics? I like the opportunity to feel connected, and show her I care, and change my communication a little bit and not problem-solve or insert my opinion as much. But I've been doing a pretty good job listening to her in this way for years, it's not like suddenly I'm DB'g and so now I listen so much better. This is incremental change. There is no major 180 here, nothing that would stick out.

I dunno... it also feels like maintaining the status quo which is really anti-DB. Maybe it is meaningless either way -- not sure if this is really an area to make a 180 or do much of anything. Time is running out until July, when I think the BD is coming -- maybe it's a mistake to even worry about the BD, that I should seek motivation from within and not some timeline.

Maybe time is not running out. Maybe W really will approach MC as an opportunity. Doubtful but who knows?

I don't know. So many maybes. I'm so exhausted trying to figure it out. I'm staring at a brick wall and trying to see through it. My eyes hurt.

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Let's go show of hands here on guys that have gone through breakups before prior to M. Like past GF's. Let's look at this from a social aspect, and a loneliness, and self secure aspect. What did you do when you started rebuilding yourself from a breakup? You probably bought new clothes try new things, made new goals, bought new cars, ate new foods, met new people, starting new activities, hobbies. Made some changes and resolutions, tried new music, visit new places. I want all of you to think about this very carefully here. Our WAS are leaving a M mainly because for a few different reasons, they want to taste of a new experience, and the Wayward case a taste of strange d&ck. They usually wind up revamping their hairstyles and makeup personal preferences their music their Hobbies their goals their desires, etc. We re-invented ourselves.Why? Because we had to reclaim our identity of who we were/are/will be. Because they no longer see a future with you after having our lives emeshed with other people.. Past history does not matter to them. F@$k the marriage. It's gone dead and buried. Bread crumbs mean nothing but plan b meaning "I'm not sure.. I would like to keep you around as a friend." Don't acknowledge it, or accept it. For 7 months ice barely worked on myself and re-establishing my social agenda and maybe have checked 4 out of 20 goals because of all the focus on the M. Its time to try new things, make new friends, get out of comfort zone, and actually do the things I either once did, or always wanted to. Is it any wonder why from the outside looking in our WAS appear to be having an MLC? They are not happy with us because they are not happy with themselves, but are trying to re-invent their lives, and it appears strange to us. Remember what I said about your time? It is valuable to you. Treat it that way. You are no longer important to them. When and if you ever will be again? You will know it. Everyday, I want you to set aside time not to think about M bit your future. Set aside time to think about M and limit it to find answers, set aside time, as hard as it is, to be alone, be lonely, do things alone. You have to get used to it and comfortable and make friends with it again as much as it s$cks. Get your priorities and Affairs in order to deal with this and make time for yourself to take care of yourself, read learn and try new things you have to take the focus off of them. Its called uncoupling. You have to regain your identity

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Originally Posted by IronWill
IMO rehashing every "wrong" thing you did repeatedly will only cause you more chaos. I know because preDB I did it. Over. And over. And over. I stopped talking to W abt that at the end of last year but continually beat myself up internally over and over again. I still do it occasionally but it has diminished post DBing.


So true. My first apology letter went over everything I did wrong the last 18 months. The follow-up letters were more specific. I read about Emotional Abuse. I admitted to a lot of "wrong" behaviors. I meant it, it was not disingenuous. My intention was to truly apologize and work on moving on as a couple. Instead it appears I just confirmed her story was the correct one.

Originally Posted by IronWill
PS I know I said it before, but there is no way in [censored] i would go to a MC with a W that didn't want to work on the R.

I agree with your sentiment. But dumb question - how do I figure out my W's intention here? She is an emotional brick wall and reveals nothing.

She's already revealed to me she doesn't want to work on the R, or at least won't talk about it, which is one and the same to me. I could accelerate the process and initiate R talk, or use this limbo "gift of time" to work on myself, as excruciating as it is to endure and suffer longer.

I have had a few ideas:

1. Contact the MC ahead of time (our prior MC held a brief phone chat with each of us individually about our vision for the R). And just tell the MC I'm not interested if W does not want to work on the R.

--> Partly I want to do this to feel out how the MC handles these situations. Do they just more or less give up on the M in this case ( "It takes 2 to stay M'd, 1 to D") ? Or do they try?

2. Tell my W directly that I will only go to MC if she wants to work on the M and stay M'd if possible.

--> This one seems like a bad idea. First of all, I am supposed to be oblivious right now, and given her current negative headspace I don't know how she is liable to react if she realizes I'm in the know. Secondly, she could easily say "Yes" and go to 1-2 sessions and just throw her hands up and say "forget it." I guess my point is... I don't trust my W to be honest here even if I do ask here.

3. Go to MC, be prepared with my response to a D request (short statement and then walk out), and otherwise say almost nothing until my W reveals her cards.

Any other ideas? #3 seems the best to me given the circumstances.

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Originally Posted by IronWill
PS I know I said it before, but there is no way in [censored] i would go to a MC with a W that didn't want to work on the R.


Quote
I agree with your sentiment. But dumb question - how do I figure out my W's intention here? She is an emotional brick wall and reveals nothing.


I wanted to know. So i bit the bullet and asked her if she wanted to go to MC to work on the R. Yes, it started a fight and yes it was emotionally exhausting. But I got my answer - "no".

So I listened to her and respected her wishes.

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Originally Posted by IronWill
Originally Posted by IronWill
PS I know I said it before, but there is no way in [censored] i would go to a MC with a W that didn't want to work on the R.


Quote
I agree with your sentiment. But dumb question - how do I figure out my W's intention here? She is an emotional brick wall and reveals nothing.


I wanted to know. So i bit the bullet and asked her if she wanted to go to MC to work on the R. Yes, it started a fight and yes it was emotionally exhausting. But I got my answer - "no".

So I listened to her and respected her wishes.




Sorry one of us didn't pop in to talk you off the ledge but yeah, that was a very predictable outcome. You temp checked her and you got BD'd all over again. At least now you know and can go about the business of giving her time and space.

As for this question:

Quote
how do I figure out my W's intention here? She is an emotional brick wall and reveals nothing.


The very fact that she's being a brick wall IS showing her intentions. She wants nothing to do with you, that's WHY she's a brick wall. You'll know it if she ever decides she's interested in reconciling because that wall will come down. Read Steve's sitch to see what that looks like.


Me: 60 w/ S18, D24, D27

M: 21 years; BD: 06-14-12; S: 09-10-12; D final: 03-17-14; XW:57
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Originally Posted by AnotherStander
Originally Posted by IronWill
Originally Posted by IronWill
PS I know I said it before, but there is no way in [censored] i would go to a MC with a W that didn't want to work on the R.


Quote
I agree with your sentiment. But dumb question - how do I figure out my W's intention here? She is an emotional brick wall and reveals nothing.


I wanted to know. So i bit the bullet and asked her if she wanted to go to MC to work on the R. Yes, it started a fight and yes it was emotionally exhausting. But I got my answer - "no".

So I listened to her and respected her wishes.




Sorry one of us didn't pop in to talk you off the ledge but yeah, that was a very predictable outcome. You temp checked her and you got BD'd all over again. At least now you know and can go about the business of giving her time and space.


Not meaning to hijack here. AS- I wasnt on the boards then - no worries3. I was alone and confused. TG I found this place.

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Originally Posted by AnotherStander
The very fact that she's being a brick wall IS showing her intentions. She wants nothing to do with you, that's WHY she's a brick wall. You'll know it if she ever decides she's interested in reconciling because that wall will come down. Read Steve's sitch to see what that looks like.

Ugh... so it's DB until the BD basically...

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Help! I need some PMA advice! I'm struggling big-time in this area.

How do you guys maintain PMA day after day? I'm 2 months into this pre-BD realization and might have another 2 months to endure before the BD. Not to mention the time afterwards. I'm struggling. I've been DB'g for about 3 weeks but I feel like I'm slipping up. PMA is one of the toughest areas for me, need some tips.

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Originally Posted by unchien
Help! I need some PMA advice! I'm struggling big-time in this area.

How do you guys maintain PMA day after day? I'm 2 months into this pre-BD realization and might have another 2 months to endure before the BD. Not to mention the time afterwards. I'm struggling. I've been DB'g for about 3 weeks but I feel like I'm slipping up. PMA is one of the toughest areas for me, need some tips.



U - the best way to be positive is to choose it. There is no other secret. You make the decision and you do it.

You can buy all the books you want, you can search all you want, you can travel all you want.

But at the end of the day, it's you. You choose to be positive.

I chose to be positive. Even if my W is flailing now. Even if it ends in D. Even if I am no longer an Unc to 4 awesome.nephews that I've become a second dad to. I want to see them. I want to be in their lives. Who gives a [censored] if its different. Its what I want.

So if I have to drop everything to make what I want happen, that's my goal.

My advice? Determine your worst case scenario. Think about it. Really. But positively. You want to see your kids, you want to have a good friendly R with your W? Then do whatever it takes to make that happen.

The rest? Well - that's life, man. We dont always get what we want. But we have to.pick ourselves up and keep moving

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Journal -

Mornings are starting to be my most positive times. Really weird dreams at night lately, usually involving either recon or devastation.

Question to everyone here about a pattern that is emerging: Last night, again, after kids went to bed, talked to W for probably 90 minutes. Previous night was 60 minutes, a bit more serious talk. Last night, a little about kids and family, and then we started telling stories about friends and our past, had several good laughs. It felt like... emotional connection. Well, ok, that’s an over-statement. It was good to laugh and smile around my W for a bit, it’s been a few weeks. I know... don’t over-read into it. But personally I enjoyed it, and not because I thought it meant anything toward recon (or maybe I’m lying to myself). It was just nice to laugh and release some stress, nothing more.

But should I be doing this? Engaging in long talks with W regularly?

I am conflicted here:

1. Recall in April I was writing apology letter after apology letter, talking about anniversary gifts, professing my love. I stopped cold turkey. It’s been 3-4 weeks since bringing anything up.

Talking with my W normally, without introducing R talk — first, I do enjoy it. Second, it is an opportunity to show her am emotionally on the level.

2. Showing my wife I am level emotionally might make her MORE comfortable to leave. I am violating DB principles. I am reinforcing that I will be a great friendly exH. I should be GAL during these times.

I’ll try to describe below where I am confused:

I’m reading NMMNG for the 2nd time lately, and realizing this is not just another self-help book. I’ve been buying a lot of books lately, this one resonates at a level where I feel like I will be reading and re-reading it over and over. I need to commit whole-heartedly to NMMNG. It will be tough. But I can see the end goal way off down the road, being comfortable in your own skin and letting go of expectations of other people. Sandi2’s posts on other threads really hammer this home. My wife is not WW (as far as I know) but I have NGS, and it has contributed heavily to our M deteriorating.

DB feels like a stepping stone towards resolving NGS. It is a nice, simple program for us introspective ruminators who can’t get out of our own head. Stopping toxic behaviors, reorienting your brain towards a more positive and self-focused outlook. DB has really helped me set some boundaries and guidelines on my behavior. I feel like DB and NMMNG mesh very nicely.

At some point, does one graduate to this higher plane where following DB rigidly is not really required, where one is comfortable in their own skin, living according to their own principles and values? That seems like the NMMNG goal. And DB would become essentially second-nature?

Going back to the talking... yeah, I’m probably looking at it as a way to reconnect a bit, I admit that. Less so than if we spoke a week ago and I was more hopeful about recon pre-BD but still. W stayed up super late after I went to sleep. I have no illusions. Maybe just talking and acting normal is pressure in its own way.

I’m having trouble wording it... I’m tired of obsessing over my M. It’s exhausting. I don’t trust my W anymore, emotionally. 2 months already pre-BD and another 2 months to go... it is a pressure cooker, and I’m doing my best, but I might be spent before we even start MC. I know I need to GAL more. I guess I feel like changing my focus from “DB hard as a way to save myself, with the possibility it will save my M” to “Do what feels good and follow DB/NMMNG, ignore the impact to my M”.

But I can see there is a flaw in my logic somewhere here, that I am slipping into NGS. Please point it out to me.

Maybe this is all a sign I am mid-transition - from hanging on the rope, to holding onto the rope but leaving slack, to now starting to let go with a few fingers... I can see far away the end of the marathon, and on the finish line it says AMOAFWL, but I can only walk a few steps before the rope starts tugging.

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U,

Your sitch is different then most here because you really haven’t been b yet and there is no evidence of an A.

So as far as the talks if your doing it as a way to reconnect and save your marriage then (which I believe you are) that’s your NGS kicking in.

Limbo is the worst to place to be. Everything afterwards it starts to get easier.

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In my humble opinion you are prolonging your pain. Yes you havent had the BD, but you know something is up. She is still acting as a WAS.

The more you stay involved, the more you will hurt. You will keep yourself on that emotional limbo rollercoaster. I honestly feel that since you havent had BD yet. Since you havent heard the ILYBIDLY or "its too late" that you have much more of a chance at making an impact by BD.

You can detach with love because you can still be friendly and approach your WAS.

Right now is your perfect time to show her the man you are. Show her that you are independent. Show her you are AMOAFWL.

Be that better version of yourself. Yes it feels very counterintuitive. However, you may just have a chance to be the pursued, if you can change for yourself and be consistent in those changes.


Last edited by SoTorn; 05/18/19 04:44 PM.

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^^^ I second that. Limbo [censored]. Not even because of W but because of having to go through all the trouble of dividing your time, your assets, your belongings, selling your home, finding a new one, getting all the documents and agreements ready, packing and throwing all your stuff in storage, selling stuff to reduce clutter, additional expenses, work, rescheduling plans, maintain all the bull$hit. All this alone, little GAL time, and all the stress, along with the smugness of W, while they pamper themselves, and make a $hit ton of social plans, is enough to make me want to throw W from a train. A W that causes you all this trouble because of their feelings, is no W at all IMO

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Originally Posted by LH19
U,

Your sitch is different then most here because you really haven’t been b yet and there is no evidence of an A.

So as far as the talks if your doing it as a way to reconnect and save your marriage then (which I believe you are) that’s your NGS kicking in.

Limbo is the worst to place to be. Everything afterwards it starts to get easier.

LH - yeah my sitch is bizarre but I know my W. She’s done. I feel like I’m working my way through the 5 stages of grief. Down the road I would like things to be amicable for the sake of my kids. I don’t feel like I’m really in limbo. I feel like she has already indicated her intentions.

It’s just confusing right now. A truly secure NGS-free person could talk to his WAS with no expectations. The hard line DB stuff feels like a means to protect us NGS folks from making mistakes. I don’t know... I truly believe she’s done, I’m grieving the loss, I don’t like it, but it is what it is. In that sense I’m pretty close to releasing the rope. In which case I’m kinda free to do whatever I feel like.

Of course this may be my brain tricking me into continuing to seek recon.

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Did you read No More Mr. Nice Guy?

Its not really about being nice.

DB is a way to better yourself, for yourself. Its to empower you to be the best version of yourself possible. Its so you can accept your own value and love yourself. It is to protect your emotional health.

DB will get you to a point where you are self sufficient, self loving and just maybe, your spouse will notice your changes and remember how important you are to them. Then they will recognize what they need to do to keep you.


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Sorry but... I’m frustrated, I’m triggered. Why do I have to put up with this for 2 more months? Why should I not just tell my W “listen we aren’t communicating well, I feel super distant from you, what is going on? Do you want to work on this or are you done?” Her put downs and disdain no matter what I do at this point. Why is she going to respect for me going away when that is exactly what she wants?!

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Originally Posted by unchien
Sorry but... I’m frustrated, I’m triggered. Why do I have to put up with this for 2 more months? Why should I not just tell my W “listen we aren’t communicating well, I feel super distant from you, what is going on? Do you want to work on this or are you done?” Her put downs and disdain no matter what I do at this point. Why is she going to respect for me going away when that is exactly what she wants?!


You can say this. No one will stop you.

But if you do, you should be prepared to hear things you do not want to hear. Prepare for pain, prepare for wrath, prepare to be blamed for everything under the sun, even if you dont deserve all of it.

Trust me, U - she is not thinking in the same manner as you. Her perspective is not in alignment with yours. My W was the most sane, rational human I ever knew. Until 9 months ago. Flip the switch and within 3 weeks she makes zero sense anymore and has a wavering brain fog. Everyone sees it, and so many people tell.me she has changed.

but W thinks it's me that is causing all the problems. That's her truth. It's not an objective truth, but it is valid because it is hers.

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IW - I know man. Even if I ask a simple “how are you?” She comes back with this angry “I’m okay! HOW ARE YOU?!” Like basically don’t ask. I’m the devil. The seething anger behind her expressions and words. It is so screwed. I have to say... she’s doing a fantastic job propelling me towards wanting to be single dad.

Ok deep breath... I get that she needs to see me this way and go tell all her family and friends how I’m some terrible piece of sh*t human being to justify leaving. That the anger is the fuel she needs to exit the atmosphere. Today she’s angry that I spent some time playing with the kids before I leave for work travel tomorrow.

It just feels so disrespectful. And I get that the anger does that too... it drives me away. Guess what? At some point, I don’t deserve this treatment. Tell me you are thinking a lot about our future. Tell me ILYBINILWY. Stop acting like I’m a mental patient or a threat. I’m a person, the man you married, the man you had 3 kids with. Secret planning for months to bomb drop me? When it’s clear as day what you’re doing? Honestly, I don’t want this person in my life right now. I want to be alone with my kids. I want to be by myself. This woman is an alien to me.

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U,

Right now your mind set has to be strength and what is best for you and the kids. Start today!

U: How are you?
W: argh gruff How are you?
U: please don't talk to me in that tone especially infront of the kids. I am sorry you're having a bad day but please don't take it out on me. Then walk away.

It won't change anything but you will start to chip away at getting your respect back.

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Your W is doing to you what mine did to me before BD. My EXWW started treating me horribly bad. She was telling me things like "you are a horrible man, you are a horrible husband, you are a horrible father". She told me things like "you have a really low bar for yourself". She was pushing me away. That is what seems to be happening in your situation.

My EXWW was ramping up her PA with OM during this time. Nothing I said or did stopped her from treating me this way. Every single interaction was her berating me and mistreating me. The best thing I could do was just ignore her. Legit no contact. The only thing that I spoke with her about was the kids schedule and asking her what bills I needed to pay.

Its time for you to pull away. Give her what she wants. Show her that you value your time and energy more than she does.


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Yeah I feel myself pulling away. I guess her mindset that I have a personality disorder or I’m abusive are the scary thoughts. What will she try to do? It freaks me out. If anything she’s acting crazy, screaming at the kids today so loud I had to confront her (which she predictably did not like). I just said calmly “everybody in this house needs to stop yelling” and she got all angry and defensive. I guess I had enough of her taking out her inner turmoil on my kids. Then she went and cried in the other room. Oh well spent nice time with my kids. Time to go for business trip.

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She wont do anything. Its all a show to get a negative reaction from you. Just focus on yourself. If she approaches you with negativity. Tell her that you will not be mistreated and remove yourself from the situation. That is all that will work. Protect yourself from the emotional abuse by not feeding into it. Remember, its not you, its her. Shes battling with her own issues. You are an outlet to blame them on.


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WW: 38
S11 D16 D19
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Unchien -

I will not pretend to have advice for you....no DB guru on my keyboard.....

However, from one who is also trudging through the muck celebrate the great time with your kids. Pour into them every synapse of love your heart can muster.

Perhaps you're like me going from one minute thinking, "Yeah, I'll manage this" to the next feeling like vomiting. Emo roller coasters are not nice.

You seem like a pretty "strong" person to me... sorting the chaos from clarity. Keep that up!

I'm sure you are better at this than me, but remember to do things - GAL. I was able to do that a bit today and it was wonderful concentrating on something other than the toxins in my head.

You have business travel ahead. So do some fun planning to do things for your kids so your return is sweet jubilee! Concentrating on the joy of them is a resource of happiness that should not be overlooked.

Just my thoughts and hopeful encouragement.

Awakened...


M-19, T-22
M-53, W 44
D15, S13
Separate BRs 02/2018 (during and after I had pneumonia)
W (left separation - no A) - ? ~ 05/03-09/2019
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Journal -

Well, that escalated quickly!

I don’t want to give too much detail or the word-for-word play-by-play (Google is my enemy).

Leaving for business trip, gave my kids a hug, wasn’t sure with W. Within 5 minutes of leaving the house, got an array of texts. How I have been super distant, how she can tell I just don’t want to be around her (she notices the GAL). Said she doesn’t understand but hopes we can talk soon. I caved a little (huge mistake, I know, please 2x4 me at will) and said that I also notice the distance, hope we can talk soon, and don’t think we are communicating well. Keep in mind I am pre-BD, not sure that changes anything as far as how to interact. I certainly feel 1000% more confident in myself than I did 4 weeks ago, as far as how to handle things on an emotional level.

It’s so weird... she seems so fueled by anger at everything I do, I know she is secretly at least investigating D as a realistic possibility, and yet... she’s angry at my distance too?! I know, it’s not supposed to make any sense.

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All right guys I'm pushing the divorce through on my sich. Feels great I feel like a weight has been lifted., looking forward to the new life ahead of me. Uni... They don't care when they do it to us. But over time they slowly start to realize the losses. One taking time and focusing on yourself and giving them so much space, realizing that you are still attractive and you are lovable and that there are people out there that would gladly spend their time with you, you regain your self-worth and you stand on your principles and you become the prize when you become the prize and are willing to lose it all, to gain it all over them. You take back your masculine frame. I really don't know if I'm being overconfident especially being at the starting line of all this and not at the finish line, I know it's going to be hard as hell, getting through the logistics in the agreements of things, set for once I actually see a future that's going to be great. Which is something that I've never done before. Uni, I don't know if this is advisable so ask the Vets on here, but I would just maximize their losses, not be punitive about it, and live on your own terms in your own way. Don't settle for anything less than full reconciliation, no breadcrumbs. Many people here do not want to be all or nothing to their spouses but ironically being All or Nothing, according to what I read here draws them back in. If you ever do draw them back and I would seriously take a considerable amount of time to think about it. I'm going on a business trip as well for a week and I'm driving right now looking forward to it so much. It's going to be awesome guy time between the wineries in the breweries in the area. I intend on having a blast. When I get back I'm getting more paperwork from wife start the divorce process. Even though she is in total agreement with all this, I can almost tell that because it's now my decision to move forward she's starting to have the fear a little bit because the decision isn't hers it's mine. For the first time I actually got some humility out of her of her acknowledging her own mistakes, rather than focusing on mine. Let them lose you. You will be great and you will do great and you will attract other people that think you are great into your life again. The way that this works is when you are powerful and you are more powerful than them, you are either going to attract them back or you are going to attract someone else even better into your life. I really don't even have that much lined up at this time, I'm flying by the seat of my pants and loving every second of it.

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Hey U,

I can only imagine the pain of the prolonged limbo you are in. I think if/when your bd happens you will get some closure but until then I know it s*cks wondering. The emotional roller coaster is brutal, one minute thinking “I can get through this no problem” to breaking down crying the next. Just know that as time goes on and you detach more, the highs and lows of the roller coaster decrease. It will get better!

Last edited by Hallzy9; 05/20/19 01:39 PM.

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Originally Posted by Hallzy9
Hey U,

I can only imagine the pain of the prolonged limbo you are in. I think if/when your bd happens you will get some closure but until then I know it s*cks wondering. The emotional roller coaster is brutal, one minute thinking “I can get through this no problem” to breaking down crying the next. Just know that as time goes on and you detach more, the highs and lows of the roller coaster decrease. It will get better!

You hit the nail on the head.

Here I am pre-BD preparing myself emotionally, DB’g, and getting this curveball from my W as if my distance is the problem. As if she maybe wants to connect (although placing blame squarely on me). It gives me some hope but I’m also so guarded right now. She takes no responsibility for things - like last time I asked to R talk 4 weeks back she said maybe in front of my IC (!) She hasn’t said ILY in months. She won’t go to bed at the same time. But if I GAL a little bit I am distant...

And now I’m away for a week which adds to the strain.

Honestly It’s going to take my W actually opening up to me and accepting she plays a role and that I’m not wearing a black hat here. Or she can give into her anger and the advice of her childless cat-owning divorcee friend. I feel like all I can do is express that I want things to work between us, that we need to be able to communicate for that to happen. If she resents me too much then I am powerless.

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U,

Unfortunately IMO this is just manipulation on her part to blame you for what’s happening. She will use everything she can to build her case on why you need to divorce.

You don’t have to express that your willing to work on it. Trust me she knows.

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Originally Posted by LH19
U,

Unfortunately IMO this is just manipulation on her part to blame you for what’s happening. She will use everything she can to build her case on why you need to divorce.

You don’t have to express that your willing to work on it. Trust me she knows.

LH - I agree it is part of the blame game. But I'm not sure she knows I want to work on it. I think her narrative is that I am manipulative and lying, so expressing my interest in fixing things seems disingenuous to her.

If I am distant? It is punishment, withholding affection. I'm splitting her kids. I'm mean.
If I try to get close? No reaction, she withdraws, no talking, we can only talk in front of my IC.

At this point I think I can distill the challenge of my sitch very simply:

W is considering leaving, blames me for her unhappiness, and needs enough fuel (anger) in order to exit the atmosphere (BD). Anything I do or don't do provides fuel. I am powerless to change her mindset. Until she gets out of the 100% blame mindset, there can be no improvement.

Right now I feel comfortable shining the light back down the path periodically, to let her know I want her to follow if she will join me. But I'm still walking forward. And I can live with the result (or I'm getting closer to accepting this at least). Three weeks ago, I couldn't walk the path myself.

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U,

I would just say something like “ it is clear by your actions that you want space so I am giving it you”.

Refresh my memory. Are you having sex?

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Originally Posted by LH19
U,

I would just say something like “ it is clear by your actions that you want space so I am giving it you”.

Refresh my memory. Are you having sex?

No sex since October.

When we went to MC last fall, it was problematic that I was pressuring her for sex. We were active about once a month, I was hoping for once a week, W thought I wanted every day. My pressuring was mostly trying to get her to be honest with me about what she wanted, because I was confused by the dissonance between her words and actions.

So we agreed W would be the one to initiate sex. October was the last time.

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Originally Posted by unchien
Originally Posted by LH19
U,

I would just say something like “ it is clear by your actions that you want space so I am giving it you”.

Refresh my memory. Are you having sex?

No sex since October.

When we went to MC last fall, it was problematic that I was pressuring her for sex. We were active about once a month, I was hoping for once a week, W thought I wanted every day. My pressuring was mostly trying to get her to be honest with me about what she wanted, because I was confused by the dissonance between her words and actions.

So we agreed W would be the one to initiate sex. October was the last time.

I should also say...

No ILY (from her) since Feb
No kissing since I can remember
Just a daily hug most mornings

Affection got super-weird between us. Really frustrated that MC1 could not help us work through it a little bit, but maybe it's a sign of how broken our communication in general is.

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Yikes.

She’s absolutely making it clear by her actions where she’s at.

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Originally Posted by LH19
Yikes.

She’s absolutely making it clear by her actions where she’s at.

Some more background... sex was very intermittent during pregnancy and 1st year of each kid. So part of the last 2 years was us sort of trying to figure things out again.

I was hoping affection would return. Not sure she really needs or wants it, or if she's withholding. It would be nice to have an honest conversation about it, but we are way past that point and have bigger problems to solve.

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Journal -

Short and simple.

Pre-BD sitch. W is fueled by anger and resentment, 100% blame on me.

Is there *any* value trying to help defuse the anger? And any advice on how to do so?

I read some advice online about showing compassion (the link actually pointed to MWD/WAS). Really hard to see how this could be implemented successfully.

Yes, I get that I am falling into the trap of trying to save my M. I am sensitive to the fact that most people here came post-BD. I also don’t know if it matters that I am pre-BD or not honestly. Maybe the timing matters in making these choices, maybe it doesn’t. Personally I look at BD as a huge mountain to climb for my W - she would not take it lightly.

IDK, 3 weeks ago I would say I desperately needed to save my M or I would fall apart. Today I would say I still fight for my M, knowing full well that it is way more complicated than just my W coming back to me, that I would need to see some changes too. My happiness matters. And also that I look at the alternative as a single dad as a potential path to even greater happiness as well, not a catastrophe. I’m not going to lie... I’m still riding the emotional roller-coaster, but the seats are getting more comfortable.

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Originally Posted by unchien
Leaving for business trip, gave my kids a hug, wasn’t sure with W. Within 5 minutes of leaving the house, got an array of texts. How I have been super distant, how she can tell I just don’t want to be around her (she notices the GAL). Said she doesn’t understand but hopes we can talk soon. I caved a little (huge mistake, I know, please 2x4 me at will) and said that I also notice the distance, hope we can talk soon, and don’t think we are communicating well. Keep in mind I am pre-BD, not sure that changes anything as far as how to interact. I certainly feel 1000% more confident in myself than I did 4 weeks ago, as far as how to handle things on an emotional level.

It’s so weird... she seems so fueled by anger at everything I do, I know she is secretly at least investigating D as a realistic possibility, and yet... she’s angry at my distance too?! I know, it’s not supposed to make any sense.

I’ve had about 48 hours to process this now.

W has been distant while I’m away. One text per day, and I call W and kids at night to say I miss them and love them.

I’m struggling here. Her actions and words have been inconsistent. I know I need to stop trying to figure out what she’s thinking. The fog is thick.

On the one hand, I can take the advice of a D’d friend (which would basically line up with DB). Tell her you want to talk too, but don’t over-communicate. Let her come to you. It’s a 50/50 game.

On the other hand, I can take the advice of a different friend. Ignore the anger, ignore the fog — my W did actually say “hopefully we can talk about your distance soon”. Take that opportunity. Wait until I get back next week, and tell her (not e-mail or text, but verbal) that I also want to talk about the way things were when I left, and that I’m here for her when she’s ready. In the meantime, don’t over communicate, but call every day just to say I miss her and the kids. The idea here is not to admit 100% blame, but provide some sort of opening for an angry, hurt, confused W to at least open up to me. Maybe from that stepping stone we can go to MC and have a 3rd party help us work through things. She made a slight indication, which is a major improvement.

That second idea is a very anti-DB idea... I know. This friend’s position is basically: Ignore all the inconsistencies in what she says. However, she did mention talking, so basically, call her out on it. The worst thing that could happen is she says no.

Here is where I’m at emotionally... I’ve spent almost 2 months now in agony about my M. The 1st month in histrionic chasing mode, the 2nd more subdued and working on DB. I finally feel confident no matter what my future holds.

I have received a GIFT — being able to see the potential BD in my future. I have had the time to find DB and work on myself. I would have been an absolute train wreck if I was caught by surprise. Instead I at least know that I can fight my way through a BD if/when it happens. I’m not going to die. Everyone here on this forum has shown me that. I’ve got a ton of work to do.

So back to the sitch at hand. My W noticed the DB efforts, loud and clear. She is upset, she is angry, she wants to talk (or at least texted that). Maybe it was a fit of rage and she has forgotten. Maybe in the next week her armor will go back up. But at least I can come home next week and say that it seemed like we both wanted to talk, and maybe start Something? Otherwise it’s just the stalemate continued...

Am I just being a complete and utter fool here?

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U,

You’re not being a fool you’re looking for hope. You can’t talk your way out of this situation. If she wants talk let her seek you out and just validate and listen. You cannot use logic and reason with an emotional human being.

Take this time to think about her actions since October. Not her words her actions. That will tell the story.

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LH -

Thank you for the straight shooting.

Not looking to talk my way out of it. Trying to get my W to let go of some anger first by opening up. I plan to listen and validate, maybe share a little bit depending how it goes. Then maybe we go to MC where a 3rd party might help us.

One of my 180s has been to stop pursuing talks. But I’m also accused of distance. Maybe a 180 would be just consistently being there - not pursuing, not distant, showing her I care but not over the top, periodically reminding her I’m ready to talk. It’s hard to tell what she’s thinking but the complaints about distance tell me that I need to adjust course. I’m stronger now emotionally than I was 3 weeks ago so I think I can test the waters and not fall apart if things go sideways.

Sex was a problem long before October, going at least 2 years back. Some medical reasons. My frustration about our sex life drove me to make some poor choices - pouting, begging, pleading, unwanted innuendos. Not going down that cheeseless tunnel right now.

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Why do the complaints about distance need you to adjust course? You can’t 180 her every complaint. You’re not her puppet. You 180 things you need to change like being needy and clingy.

You don’t need to show her you care! She knows! If you have this talk that your searching out, I don’t care if you rehearse 100 times when it goes sideways, and it will you are going to have a meltdown. When she says I love you but I’m not in love with you and I know I’ll never find someone who loves me the way you love me you’re gonna go into panic mode. Mike Tyson has a saying “everyone has a plan until they get punched in the face”.

When your w questions you about distancing your answer should be “ I need time and space to figure out what I want and need in this relationship”. Yes believe it or not your needs matter too.

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Originally Posted by unchien


Not looking to talk my way out of it. Trying to get my W to let go of some anger first by opening up. I plan to listen and validate, maybe share a little bit depending how it goes. Then maybe we go to MC where a 3rd party might help us.


Hey U - you might want to re-read what you wrote here ^^^^

Just a heads up - she may not even remember what you two talked about. My W said we were going to talk about selling the house the day after BD. That was 2 months ago - it got lost in the fog. Maybe not forever, maybe it will come back but in the meantime it bought me 2 months to work on myself more. If my goal is to outlast MLC then time is what I need.

I'm not you but everytime i brought something up that she perceived as pressure it made things worse.

My 180s are many, including stopping pressure, giving space so she can figure out her own self, and letting her be. That's what I'm doing bc nothing else worked

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Originally Posted by unchien

One of my 180s has been to stop pursuing talks. But I’m also accused of distance.



If she is accusing you of distance, perhaps she is noticing your 180 and reacting to it. One of the things with the 180 that I read about somewhere is that the S will try to sabotage it if it starts having an effect. The example I read was that if you were getting in better shape and looking more attractive, they may cook you unhealthy meals. Maybe this just means your 180 is working? Something to think about

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Originally Posted by IronWill

My 180s are many, including stopping pressure, giving space so she can figure out her own self, and letting her be. That's what I'm doing bc nothing else worked

Your 180 should focus on you not her. Everything you mentioned is correct but it should be a secondary result. The actions themselves should be focused on your own well being not her reactions. I say this because I fall into the same trap and keep checking if I am getting a reaction from her but I feel the happiest when I personally feel better due to the 180

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Originally Posted by unchien

I have received a GIFT — being able to see the potential BD in my future. I have had the time to find DB and work on myself. I would have been an absolute train wreck if I was caught by surprise. Instead I at least know that I can fight my way through a BD if/when it happens. I’m not going to die. Everyone here on this forum has shown me that. I’ve got a ton of work to do.



If I were you I would try to DB and detach emotionally to the extent that the BD is nothing more than a confirmation of what you knew would happen in time. Do the work now and there will be no need to fight when the BD happens because there is no B in the BD since you already know.

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Originally Posted by LH19
Why do the complaints about distance need you to adjust course? You can’t 180 her every complaint. You’re not her puppet. You 180 things you need to change like being needy and clingy.

You don’t need to show her you care! She knows! If you have this talk that your searching out, I don’t care if you rehearse 100 times when it goes sideways, and it will you are going to have a meltdown. When she says I love you but I’m not in love with you and I know I’ll never find someone who loves me the way you love me you’re gonna go into panic mode. Mike Tyson has a saying “everyone has a plan until they get punched in the face”.

LH19 -

You can tell I am struggling to find that balance. At one extreme, needy and clingy. At the other, being distant. And I'm in denial - I'm still holding onto that rope.

I don't think she knows I care. I think she's lost in a fog of anger and resentment, projecting who knows what onto me. She's unhappy, she's soul-searching, I don't know. It [censored].

She has barely said anything of substance to me in almost 2 months. Her complaint about my distance was a change. Maybe it was just a ripple of anger, and I should expect more of the same. But it was something.

She also complained I was distant last fall when I stopped my clingy behavior. Maybe I can find a better balance. Maybe I can show her I am not that person that vacillates between clingy and distant. I don't know, I should probably throw logic out the window.

I know I need to distance myself to protect myself emotionally. I take all the advice here to heart, I know I'm being told this advice for good reason, and I should not throw caution to the wind.

My needs are not being met. Part of this DB process so far has been realizing that I have not been happy for awhile, but I've been going through the motions as well. My hope is just to get some traction so we can get into MC and at least give this a few months to try to work out. I think this is our only path to recon. If we go through S or D, given my W's personality as well as mine, I highly doubt recon would be on the table.

Originally Posted by LH19
When your w questions you about distancing your answer should be “ I need time and space to figure out what I want and need in this relationship”. Yes believe it or not your needs matter too.

Right - so why not take this opportunity to speak to her directly, if she is open to it?

Knowing full well that I might be facing Iron Mike, and immediately regret my poor decision...

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Originally Posted by IronWill
Originally Posted by unchien


Not looking to talk my way out of it. Trying to get my W to let go of some anger first by opening up. I plan to listen and validate, maybe share a little bit depending how it goes. Then maybe we go to MC where a 3rd party might help us.


Hey U - you might want to re-read what you wrote here ^^^^

Just a heads up - she may not even remember what you two talked about. My W said we were going to talk about selling the house the day after BD. That was 2 months ago - it got lost in the fog. Maybe not forever, maybe it will come back but in the meantime it bought me 2 months to work on myself more. If my goal is to outlast MLC then time is what I need.

I'm not you but everytime i brought something up that she perceived as pressure it made things worse.

My 180s are many, including stopping pressure, giving space so she can figure out her own self, and letting her be. That's what I'm doing bc nothing else worked

IW - you are so right. I may be reading too much into this, and she may forget it. She is definitely ghosting me the last few days, but I'm wise enough not to try to figure out what she is thinking.

I still think I could say something like, "You mentioned wanting to talk after I left on my trip. I would also like to talk. If not now, I'm here for you if and when you do want to talk."...

Ahhh... I cringe as I write that... but... she brought it up, why not remind her if only just once?

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Originally Posted by MLCxH
Originally Posted by unchien

One of my 180s has been to stop pursuing talks. But I’m also accused of distance.



If she is accusing you of distance, perhaps she is noticing your 180 and reacting to it. One of the things with the 180 that I read about somewhere is that the S will try to sabotage it if it starts having an effect. The example I read was that if you were getting in better shape and looking more attractive, they may cook you unhealthy meals. Maybe this just means your 180 is working? Something to think about

Ok I did a 180 on my clinginess by stopping the letters. I stopped the ILYs. And over texting. Going back to talk if she shows a willingness seems different from a return to my previous behavior.

My 180 involved some distance. Her reaction is extreme. There could be many reasons but I shouldn’t try to place myself in her head... sabotage, she’s undecided and upset that I’m forcing her hand, she’s worried about losing her Plan B... who knows?

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Expecting BD soon #3

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