I agree, its when they commit themselves to their EA or PA. All the red flags come up. You can literally search online for "Infidelity Red Flags".
You will start seeing them because its a script.
I saw the following changes starting in March 2018
Hiding the phone Obsession with exercise Obsession with looks Change of hair style Synthetic Nails Fake Eyelashes Change of grooming habits (started shaving it all off down there when she would never do that for me when I asked) Hiding the phone like crazy Hiding her laptop like crazy Coming home late Sitting in her car in the garage late to talk on the phone (OM lives out of state with his wife, kids and grandkids) Finding reasons to leave the house (I followed her and found her talking on the phone in her car at the gas station) Increase in traveling for work (OM is her boss) Ignoring me while traveling (used to talk to me all day in text and every night before bed) Increase in alcohol consumption (Went from a glass of wine every few days to two bottles per night) Changed clothes (started buying cocktail dresses instead of business attire for work trips) Started leaving earlier for travel and coming back later, I.E leaving Sunday Morning when work meeting was Tuesday. Coming back the following Monday when work ended the Friday before (used to make a point to be home on weekends and travel home immediately when she was done with work) Increase in younger/single/divorced friends (Made friends with divorced/progressive women from Yoga classes) Distancing herself from kids and I Getting mad when we questioned why she was traveling so much (travel went from once every few months to every other week for a full week) Removed herself from my credit card as authorized user (This is a biggie, they separate their finances) Started putting me down all the time Started telling me I was worthless Started telling me I was smothering her Started telling me she needed space
Boom BD, ILYBIDLY Boom confirmation of PA
Wow ST, I can check off several of these..... not all, but several. Tells me she's gearing up. I wonder if because I pulled the BD out of her she wasn't done setting up and it was dropped premature (maybe not - I'll never know).
You will get there man. Just keep focusing on yourself. Push her from your mind. If you start thinking about her, force yourself to think of something else.
One thing that helped me detach was meeting new people and realizing that there are plenty of other people on this earth that will recognize my value and want me in their life unconditionally.
M:16 T:21 H(me) 38 WW: 38 S11 D16 D19 Red Flags of A: March 2018 ILYBNILWY: August 4, 2018 Moved out of MBR: September 24, 2018 BD/Confirmation of A: October 31, 2018 D Filed: March 27, 2019
Is it universal that these MLC'ers will not go to church? I'm really surprised how absolutely against going she's turned... it's very very shocking. If I was in crisis, I'd be running to church.
Does this also mean MLC'ers stop praying? I haven't seen my W pray since this started and now that I think about it..... not for a long time before either.
-SoloFlex
Any thoughts on this? Went to church again tonight, W didn't go. Absolutely zero interest that I can tell.
There has been talk about a big part of the whole MLC experience being fought on the spiritual level (and I happen to agree). Any stories about this aspect?
Ok, I need an ear, opinions, suggestions, feedback.... [deep breath]
So I was drawn into an R discussion tonight with W (which I know is a no-no) but it did have a purpose. I wanted to evaluate where she is, what she's thinking (or thinks she's thinking) and probe by asking open ended questions and waiting. I am lacking information, so an opportunity like this important (like why is she nice still?).
Anyway.... so the big fireworks first (get it out of the way): She gave me her wedding and engagement rings back and said "put this back on me when everything is ok". I was shocked but kept myself together (I'll get into that more in a min).
Her big thing tonight was how weird the last two weeks have been. I had been pulling back and giving her space these last two weeks (which seemed to be helping) and this did not sit well with her at all. She went thru the same stuff everyone here talks about: "I can't see how we can improve this", "I'm suffocating", "My dreams have been buried", "I'm angry", "I'm sad", "I don't want to hurt you", "I'm a bad wife and a bad person", "This isn't easy for you", etc. It's like she was hoping I'd put a stop to this. I did the 180.
A main theme the whole conversation was the desire to run (she wouldn't have been open about this unless I was asking questions and been interested (and listening). This is where the returning of rings happened (that was a stab in the heart). I asked her what options were going thru her head, for the 1st time ever the D word was used, along with counseling.
Now I did have to make a trade to get this information = nothing given, nothing received. She wanted to know what I was doing, and I told her I was giving her space and time.... and that I was working to understand myself and become a better person. There was some emotion in there but I kept it in really good check.
Near the end, she was very emotional and asked how and why I was so even-keel...... why was I not mad at her. How could I be understanding and supportive. She was very confused. I told her I was deeply interested in her and us (yes maybe a mistake), I told her I love her, I believe in our marriage........ the reason for all that is to make sure she knows there's an open door back. I'm already expecting an A (get that out of the way right now). The A is going to happen. Here's another possible no-no I did....... after taking the rings back (which is a huge relief to me, I was afraid she'd run off and pawn them, have them stolen by an OM, or defiled in some vulgar act.... at least I can protect them, preserve their sanctity as a symbol, and use them in the healing process later). So anyway.... once I had the rings. I asked her "what does this mean?". She acted like she didn't understand, and then replied "It gives me stress to look at them and think about you". I told her "you realize you will be tempted as you have never been tempted before..... Do you understand this?". She wanted clarification, and I gave it to her. Spelled it out (not getting mad, or impatient, completely clinical). She understood and didn't think that would happen. I told her she WILL be tested even if she can't see that now. I also added that I would hope she would be honest with me if something does happen as I would be honest with her. She agreed.
We agreed to give her space and time to reduce her stress. And agreed that if the MBR is closed she will be left alone (until I go to bed). She was soooooo confused, crying..... over and over "I can't do this anymore", "I want to run and I'm trying not to".
Believe nothing she says and half what she does...... ok, I believe 10% of what she says, and half what she does. I have the rings. The affair is inbound. The tattoo is Tuesday. A girls night out at the baseball game and drinks at the bar is Saturday (learned about this tonight). She went to a collage graduation party tonight and told me someone had thought she was in collage (which obviously gave her great pleasure).
It was a big night..... I was 90% clinical that was very good. 10% was minor slips (eyes watering, one or two small tears...... not for long). Remained very supportive in everything. Asked questions. Empathized. Acknowledged my faults leading up to this point. Didn't tell her any BS. Reinforced the concept of US. Denied any desire to give up on us.
Gave some up to receive a lot in return. She's going down, and going down fast.
As I look at her rings.... I see something..... understand something I didn't see or expect. [Sigh] There's a little story I'd like to share......
My W and I were raised poor..... from small-town USA. We had nothing except each other and GOD. When I proposed, I was in the service.... back then junior enlisted made nothing. I was an E3 and cleared $332 dollars a month. Most of my money went to buying prepaid calling cards so I could talk to her once a week. Her dad had nothing, couldn't help with the wedding expenses. It took a whole year for me to save enough money for her dress. $1800..... the nicest thing we could dream of. The engagement ring was something I couldn't afford at all... We had so little all I could afford was a diamond chip, and I wanted her to have so much better. I prayed, we prayed.... and a little while before I was going to propose a miracle happened..... she was going somewhere, and there on the top of a gas pump was a ring. A big gaudy gold ring with a 2ct rock and a bunch of small princess cut diamonds. No one claimed it.
The 2ct is completely colorless (perfect) and the cut was fantastic. That was GOD's gift to us... it WAS us. Beautiful from the outside but with some inclusions inside.... if you magnified it you could see them. She gave me the ring, no questions asked and I didn't ask for it. She assumed I'd sell it. I didn't. From the ugly ring came a beautiful solitaire wrapped in platinum..... and for the wedding band, two of the princess cut stones were spaced evenly so the big stone sat between them The small stones were us..... the big stone was GOD. The three make one. A trinity ring.
The ring was a gift from GOD...... he has removed it from it's place so his gift is not defiled.
Is it universal that these MLC'ers will not go to church?
It's not uncommon. WAS's love to hook onto an enabler or two and will shut down on people that don't enable them. So for example sometimes their own parents will try to convince them to work on the M and they will quit talking to them for a while (months, maybe longer). Likewise religion does not tell them what they want to hear so they will quit going, or go but just for "show".
Originally Posted by SoloFlex
So I was drawn into an R discussion tonight with W (which I know is a no-no) but it did have a purpose. I wanted to evaluate where she is, what she's thinking (or thinks she's thinking) and probe by asking open ended questions and waiting. I am lacking information, so an opportunity like this important (like why is she nice still?).
First of all you were not "drawn into" an R discussion. How do I know? Because YOU "wanted to evaluate where she is". You are wasting your time and hurting your chances of recon. How? Because you are applying pressure to her at a time she wants ZERO PRESSURE. Your job is to REMOVE all pressure. Every time you apply pressure you set yourself back to square one. So STOP. Whenever you temp check all you're going to hear is how she feels at this very moment in time. It can change tomorrow, next week, next month, next year.You get no useful info out of a temp check other than hearing nothing has changed for her. She may even feel forced to accelerate her plans for S or D.
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Her big thing tonight was how weird the last two weeks have been. I had been pulling back and giving her space these last two weeks (which seemed to be helping) and this did not sit well with her at all.
That's because of where her mind is right now. EVERYTHING you do is "not good enough" or "too little too late" or "done for all the wrong reasons". This is why we say to do things for YOU, not to get a reaction out of her. It will slowly over time work on her perception of you, but not right away. You've got to be patient.
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Near the end, she was very emotional and asked how and why I was so even-keel...... why was I not mad at her. How could I be understanding and supportive. She was very confused.
This is pretty typical as are most of the other things she said to you in that talk. WAS's expect a very negative reaction to BD from the LBS, in fact they kind of hope for it as it makes them feel more justified. When they don't get that it makes it harder for them to rationalize what they are doing. They still DO rationalize it, but it's not going "according to plan".
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I told her I was deeply interested in her and us (yes maybe a mistake), I told her I love her, I believe in our marriage........ the reason for all that is to make sure she knows there's an open door back.
All you're doing is laying the groundwork to be Plan B.
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I told her "you realize you will be tempted as you have never been tempted before..... Do you understand this?". She wanted clarification, and I gave it to her. Spelled it out (not getting mad, or impatient, completely clinical). She understood and didn't think that would happen. I told her she WILL be tested even if she can't see that now. I also added that I would hope she would be honest with me if something does happen as I would be honest with her. She agreed.
I guess you are talking about an A. She is going to do what she wants, and she will not keep you informed of it. Do you read other threads here? If not please do, especially those of people farther down the road than you. It'll give you a better idea of what to expect, and what DOESN'T work.
It sounds like you have strong faith so that's good, but remember the story about the drowning man screaming to God for help? And a boat comes by and asks if he needs help and he says no, God will save me. Then another comes by and he says the same, then he drowns, goes to Heaven and asks God why he didn't save him and he says "who do you think sent the boats?" Don't wait for a miracle to "snap her out of it", instead trust that God is sending you to the places you need help from (like here). LISTEN to the advice, FOLLOW the advice. God may be teaching you a lesson in PATIENCE with this. Embrace the journey, don't fight it.
So I was drawn into an R discussion tonight with W (which I know is a no-no) but it did have a purpose. I wanted to evaluate where she is, what she's thinking (or thinks she's thinking) and probe by asking open ended questions and waiting. I am lacking information, so an opportunity like this important (like why is she nice still?).
Originally Posted by AnotherStander
First of all you were not "drawn into" an R discussion. How do I know? Because YOU "wanted to evaluate where she is". You are wasting your time and hurting your chances of recon. How? Because you are applying pressure to her at a time she wants ZERO PRESSURE. Your job is to REMOVE all pressure. Every time you apply pressure you set yourself back to square one. So STOP. Whenever you temp check all you're going to hear is how she feels at this very moment in time. It can change tomorrow, next week, next month, next year.You get no useful info out of a temp check other than hearing nothing has changed for her. She may even feel forced to accelerate her plans for S or D.
Hi AnotherStander, So I have a question about this..... so we've had three of these R talks total. When they happen, she corners me, I don't go looking for it. So when a W blocks a doorway and says "we need to talk", how do you get away or disarm it? The 1st two I was in a closet and she barred the way out. Last night she blocked the doorway to the bedroom. Just say I don't want to talk about it? Move her? I'm still really new to this. I'm not looking to start trouble with her.
Welp you said what you said. Just understand that the conversation you had will not change her mind.
Like AS said, she will not be open and honest with you about an A. Your MR is over. You need to accept that.
Even though you shouldnt have talked to her about loving her etc, you did.
Now just remember that you said those things. Never say them again. Its time to stop being plan B. Shift all of the focus onto yourself and back way off of her. Set her free. Drop that rope and start dealing with your life. Start preparing for the very likely possibility that you will be D.
M:16 T:21 H(me) 38 WW: 38 S11 D16 D19 Red Flags of A: March 2018 ILYBNILWY: August 4, 2018 Moved out of MBR: September 24, 2018 BD/Confirmation of A: October 31, 2018 D Filed: March 27, 2019
