Married couple from Scandinavia

[SteveLW]

So far she hasn't seen any reaction from me besides asking where her ring is. I've remained calm.

But she crossed a boundary by taking the ring off, should that really not have any consequences? As in, she needs to move out now?

We only suggesting kicking her out of the mbr if she is in an active affair. Kicking a spouse out of the house has legal ramifications.

Removing their ring is minor compared to what some LBSs' deal with. Ben are you a bit controlling?

No, I don't think I am. I have never commented on her staying out late or on anything else she felt like doing. I understand what other LBS's go through but I don't want to do that. Her removing the ring is huge for her. And it would be totally understandable if we had decided to end the relationship or perhaps even a trial separation. But to do it because she was out partying, that is major for her. To give you and idea on how bad she thinks it is -

I have always hated jewelry. I was fearing having to have a ring on my finger because it's always bothered me. Ever since I was a kid I've been like this. I've never worn any necklaces, rings or bracelets. The feeling of metal on my skin makes me itch for some reason. The first few weeks after we were married felt like torture, but I never took it off. Still today it doesn't feel pleasant to wear it but I do. When we talked about this after the wedding she said I must NEVER take it off. That I'll just have to get used to it. Having rings was very important to her. So for her to do this now means a lot. I was preparing for the worst so I'm not surprised but this is a boundary she crossed.

Is it controlling that I won't tolerate her breaking a rule that was so important to her? I didn't mean I would kick her out of the house or threaten her to leave. But if we end our relationship she knows she has to leave because that was our agreement before we got married.

This morning she is feeling guilty, I can tell. She suggested having lunch together, laid closer to me in bed than usual. I won't mention the ring of course but how can I show that I won't accept that from her? If I was to say anything her guilt would transform to defensiveness and anger probably. On Monday we have our next MC session. I don't know what to say while there.

I don't know what the next steps should be. How do I detach when we spend so much time together? I can't GAL enough since I have the dog. I'm starting to feel like a burden to my friends since I'm always asking someone to be dog sitter so I can do GAL activities. Everything keeps pointing to the fact that it would be better if she just moved out. I'm aware she might start seeing other men then but by staying in our apartment together, not having any chance to miss me but instead see me almost every day - how is that good for us? Yes, I work out, read books and meet friends, but in the end we sleep together in the same bed every night. Perhaps it's best if we just end this let her live the life she thinks she wants and I can move on with mine and maybe I meet her again one day but maybe not.

Ben, I am questioning how much reading you've done here. Did you read DR? Did you do all of the reading Cadet linked? One of the biggest things sandi tries to get LBH's to understand is that your WAW/WW IS NOT THE GIRL YOU MARRIED ANYMORE! Her values and priorities are different.

When my W and I got married my W and I were discussing someone who had cheated on their spouse. My W said "Please never cheat on me!" 20 years later, two BDs and two EAs, and a raging WW period later, I had to come to the realization that she was not the same woman. After BD 12/23/2017 multiple times my WW encouraged, talked about, said she hoped, I would just go out and meet someone. And that it would be so much easier If I had cheated on her.

You have to come to the realization that you aren't dealing with the girl where wearing rings was SOOOO important.

Ben, DBing has one crucial foundation: patience. Impatience will get you to D faster than anything else. I know in your sitch you don't seem to have a lot to lose. You have no kids. You have a prenup. It might just be easy to pull the plug move on and hope for better next time. But there is a stigma that goes along with being D'd. You have to tell potential new people in your life. Answer questions about why. There is life after D, just talk to some the vets here that have been through it, but I've yet to meet anyone that says: "I am so glad I married the wrong person and got D'd!" Also, if you do not earn your way out of your marriage you will be stuck with baggage you carry into future relationships. Do the work to deal with all of the emotional baggage, work through it and make sure to deal with it all. The other risk you run is looking back with regrets. "Did I really do everything I could to have saved it?" "Did I exhaust every avenue and all ways to attempt to save it?"

So do the work necessary to earn your way out of your marriage.

I am the same way with jewelry. That is why I was ecstatic to find silicone rings! Seriously look into them. They are amazing and feel like you are wearing nothing at all. And you can work in them. I even keep it on at the shooting range. With my gold band I had to take it off at the range. I recommend checking them out.

[BenB]

I´m reading the DB book. Is that not the book I´m supposed to be reading? I´ve reached page 128 so far. I get that she´s not the same person anymore. And I´ve read for many, many hours on this forum. Some things are conflicting it seems. Are you saying the correct response to her taking the ring off is no response?

Is there any action from her that requires a response from me?

Thank you for all your advice. I haven´t reacted anywhere but here on this forum so far. I just wish I knew better what to do in specific situatons. I wish I could get away from her for a while somehow. End of August I am going on a tour of Europe for my work and will be gone for over a month. But that feels like a century away.

When we meet the therapist and he asks us how we have been, encouraging us to talk, I don´t know what to say. Everything I can say I´ve been recommended here not to say. So while we´re home and I´m behaving detached(somewhat) and not pursuing, not asking where she is going, not initiating R talks, focusing on myself and going to the gym every day, I might give off a vibe that I have mentally moved on but then we go to MC and I have to talk about my thoughts and feelings, clearly revealing to her that I haven´t moved on. But on the other hand, she likes going to therapy and looks forward to it. Can you understand how I´m confused over what to do and what is the right action?

[DnJ]

Good Morning Ben

I keep going back and forth between being certain I want out and that I deserve better than this to feeling like I must not give up. The thought of being single doesn´t bother me right now for some reason. But I´ll probably feel different about this soon. I trust my own feelings as little as I trust hers right now.

Look at this again.

Ben, you are right, you cannot trust your feelings right now. Feelings are fleeting, they will and do change. Never make decisions based on emotions and feelings.

Tonight, just an hour ago my wife came home after being with her friends at a bar. I noticed her wedding ring wasn't on her finger. I couldn't stop myself so I asked where the ring is. She seemed shocked and caught off guard. Went searching for it and found it in her purse. Didn't say anything except a nervous "I took it off". She brought it and put it right back on.

I was seconds from saying, "sorry, I can't do this anymore". But instead I decided to write here and not mention anything until tomorrow.

Good job on bringing it here and not blowing up at home.

This is the counterintuitive part of this mess. You are attached and making decisions based on your feelings. You don’t realize all the decisions, reactions, and thoughts you are creating based on your emotional state. It is normal, and takes time and mental assertiveness to overcome and get through this.

Detachment wouldn't have given a crap if her ring was on or not.

So she took her ring off and that's the straw that broke the camel's back?

So far she hasn't seen any reaction from me besides asking where her ring is. I've remained calm.

But she crossed a boundary by taking the ring off, should that really not have any consequences? As in, she needs to move out now?

No, she doesn’t need to move out now. That idea is emotional driven.

For the next few minutes, please put your feelings aside as best you can, and really stay with me with your intellectual side, your reason and logic.

I get it Ben. Rings symbolize a lot about your relationship. She took her’s off, and now you say she has to have consequences? It is a ring. A circular bit of metal.

I understand, your hurt, upset, scared, and unsure what to do. It’s just a ring Ben, and W doesn’t (for the moment) see or feel about it the way she used to.

Removing their ring is minor compared to what some LBSs' deal with. Ben are you a bit controlling?

Controlling doesn’t mean keeping her under lock and key or checking where she is, etc... That is one form of being controlling, not what I and I think Steve is talking about.

The statement - You can’t control anyone but yourself. You control your thoughts, actions, and reactions.

A boundary for her removing her ring is you attempting to control her thoughts and actions. You can only control your’s.

You expect W to wear her ring, she didn’t and look what happened. Expectations, keep them at zero. Having expectation of her is akin to believing you know her, and therefore can more or less predict what she will do or think or feel. Rather controlling in a way.

W is different right now, and is exploring what she wants to do. Time and space, let her come back to you. You cannot force it, put a boundary on it, or control it.

Please see, I am not belittling your feelings, they are very real, and very temporary. Honest, they will flit away once you stop feeding them.

You did ask some specific questions regarding money and concert tickets. Basically do not give her “extra” money, you are not her Dad. And she can buy concert tickets. She needs to grow up and take on the responsibilities and consequences of her choices. Don’t be mean or cruel, just not enabling.

Now, I am not sure of your two’s financial arrangements. How good a job she has, how much you have previously supported her over the years, and so on. I do know you have stated the prenuptial agreement splits you and her pretty clearly. Perhaps she needs to experience this (or part of this) before it actually gets enacted.

That is a tricky path. Start small, no freebie concert tickets, and build from there.

I don't know what the next steps should be. How do I detach when we spend so much time together?

Focusing on you!

Detach your emotions from her.

How? Don’t jump to boundaries when she takes off her ring. Just shrug and keep going about your day. I know how hard that is. So, until you actual get there, keep coming here venting, and getting encouragement and lessons. Listen to the counsel from others, read what others have done, what worked, what didn’t. Keep moving forward.

Fake it till you make it. Behave detached. Your mind will make it so.

Be accurate in thought and heart. See things clearly, not just with W, it is really more with you.

And language usage. Using can’t, this makes something impossible. Your mind is listening. If you say I can’t do this, well you won’t be able to. Instead be accurate. See it as what is really going on - won’t. Very few things are impossible. Save that word and idea for things that are truly impossible - like you getting pregnant. That can’t happen. No matter how much you want it. See how your mind hears the word can’t.

Can’t, won’t, will, do, try, etc. How we speak has an affect on us and our perceptions of our reality, our feelings, our thoughts, and our beliefs. These affects build upon each previous one and cause a dramatic shift in one’s self. The way we talk to ourselves is possibility the biggest and best way to move forward. Actually, in my opinion, it is the single most important thing you will (or won’t) do.

There really is no try. You will or you won’t. Trying just predisposes you to fail. Choose to succeed, then it is just a matter of time and effort.

DnJ

[SteveLW]

Yes Ben, we've all been there. We like to day around here that when you're in doubt about what to do, doing nothing is the best course. In fact, it helped me to understand that doing nothing is doing something!!

As far as MC, just let the C lead. MC should be a safe space where you can share openly. Not sure if others will agree or not but I think you should share your thoughts and feelings there. But then leave that all there and do not do that or if MC. MC should be done very carefully in our sitches. I did it during mine. But like I tell people the first couple of months was more like IC for each of us with the other one there. We typically tell LBSs not to do MC until their spouse is all in and committed to working on the marriage. So feel free to pull the plug Ben if you feel she's just going through the motions.

If you comes to that you can say "MC isn't really working for me, so I think we should stop going. However, I have a lot to work on so I'm going to start IC."

Temper expectations. Most WASs agree to MC son that they can claim they tried everything.

[BenB]

Thank you DnJ, your posts are so relaxing to read. You are right. I was so close..so close to say something that could have potentially been life changing in a negative way.

I´m glad I didn´t say anything besides asking where the ring is. But I´m sure she must have felt the tension when I held it in. I hope I get better at shrugging things off. It really did hurt since we´ve been quite normal with each other the last few weeks.

As for the concert tickets, I understand what you mean but I don´t know how that conversation would be? She knows it´s just a text message away for me to the venue and doesn´t cost me anything. If she asks for tickets and I say no, she´ll want to know why. What would my answer be? If I don´t give one, she´ll assume I´m angry about the ring. Anything else is easier to deny her because that means I have to pay something, but the tickets she knows are effortless.

I have supported her a lot the last few years but I´ve always felt I owe her after she supported me during my financial crisis.

Thank you for bringing my focus back. I´ll make sure to come here and vent before I make any decisons.

[BenB]

Yes Ben, we've all been there. We like to day around here that when you're in doubt about what to do, doing nothing is the best course. In fact, it helped me to understand that doing nothing is doing something!!

As far as MC, just let the C lead. MC should be a safe space where you can share openly. Not sure if others will agree or not but I think you should share your thoughts and feelings there. But then leave that all there and do not do that or if MC. MC should be done very carefully in our sitches. I did it during mine. But like I tell people the first couple of months was more like IC for each of us with the other one there. We typically tell LBSs not to do MC until their spouse is all in and committed to working on the marriage. So feel free to pull the plug Ben if you feel she's just going through the motions.

If you comes to that you can say "MC isn't really working for me, so I think we should stop going. However, I have a lot to work on so I'm going to start IC."

Temper expectations. Most WASs agree to MC son that they can claim they tried everything.

Thank you Steve,

That´s a good thing to keep in mind. When in doubt, do nothing.

I was worried that she might be going only to claim she´s tried everything but she really seems interested in going each time. She even told the therapist that she wants a session once a week instead of every other week because she feels it´s needed and that it helps. Now that I suggested a different form of therapy, she seemed happy about that as well. We´ve been to 7 sessions in the last two months now. But you´re right, I don´t have any expectations that these will lead to a breakthrough. They are helping me for now though.

I´ll see how the Monday session goes with the new therapist and come back for an update then.

Have a great weekend

[DnJ]

Hello Ben

As for the concert tickets, I understand what you mean but I don´t know how that conversation would be? She knows it´s just a text message away for me to the venue and doesn´t cost me anything. If she asks for tickets and I say no, she´ll want to know why. What would my answer be? If I don´t give one, she´ll assume I´m angry about the ring. Anything else is easier to deny her because that means I have to pay something, but the tickets she knows are effortless.

An overall idea of how that conversation would go.

I am going to go with the idea that you are good with her not getting free tickets for her and her friend(s) to go to a concert. And as you say how do you not do this with our the blame from her. How about this:

She asks if you can get her some tickets to <xxx> for June 22.

You say, That’s a great idea, I would love to go to <xxx>. I’ll get a couple of tickets and we will have a great time.

If she does want to go, then go and have a good time.

However, I suspect she will baulk a bit at the suggestion of you and her going. Something like, Oh, ummm, I was hoping to go with <name of GF>.

You reply, let me see if I understand this. You don’t want to go with me to see <xxx>. You want to go with <name of GF]. Why would I get tickets for <name of GF>.


Maybe something to consider.

DnJ

[BenB]

Thank you DnJ,

I don´t think I could say that since I would usually never want to go with her to those type of events so she would know immediately I´m up to something. But I´ll think of something.

[BenB]

Update

So yesterday we went to see the new MC who I found after searching for SBT therapists. She was completely different from our previous therapist and my W liked her much better(she says).

We quickly went through the situation that got us there. The MC noted that there are 3 things about our relationship that´s different currently. The fact that we can´t communicate and plan things for the future(which was 80% of what our conversations would be about), the lack of intimacy and us not communicating while we are apart. We used to start each day with sending pictures of the dog to each other, have our internal humor and send emojis that only we would understand.

Planning things for the future would include booking holidays and planning what to do while there, booking dinners at special restaurants etc etc.

The MC said "I´m going to ask you something, let me know if this is too much. Can you plan one day of the week that you set aside for each other such as dinner at one of those restaurants. And that shouldn´t be written in stone, if you don´t feel like it, stay home that day and just chill as long as you´re together."

W: Yes, we could do that but I think it´s better to set a date every other week. I need to know in advance so I don´t have anything else planned with my friends.

MC: Well, it´s about what you want prioritize. You know, what? Let´s forget that idea for now. It doesn´t seem like that will fly at the moment. How about this - each day, you send each other a picture of the dog like you used to. Then no other communication besides that, ok?

We both agreed that was easy to do and that we would try that. It was a 90 minute session so we had a lot to talk about. W told the MC that I was a completely different person today from who I was 3 months ago. She said that friendly intimacy doesn´t bother her but she doesn´t want to confuse me. That she missed me holding her each night in bed until she fell asleep or until she wasn´t cold anymore(I would go back and get some work done after that and go to bed later) but she´s afraid that if we do that, I might expect to do that every day. Same with sex, she says she has wanted that at times as well but she fears that she might wake up and be the dark version of herself the next day and that would confuse me.

During the whole time she was saying this, I couldn´t help thinking in the back of my head "I wonder if there is an OM. Why else would the ring come off that night, why else would she hide our wedding photos on social media". I don´t think about it much usually but whenever I see her "trying" or saying the right things, those thoughts appear. I hope that in time, they won´t.

Today, she is sick with a fever but she´s still at work. I haven´t received any picture of the dog and I´m certainly not going to be the first one to send. Our next MC session is on Wednesday next week.

[SteveLW]

Ben send the pic. Be the leader in this case. Is it DBing? Not strictly, but someone has to start!