Complex WW and/or MLC #3

[sandi2]

I'm getting to the root of some of my issues and insecurities and just understanding where and what they are has given me a lot of opportunity to make changes in my daily interactions with EVERYONE and it would be nice to share some of this with W.

Share, huh? You guys begin to sound as if one man is writing all these posts. Sharing.......ha! It's just another word for talking. You still want to talk her back.

In my years of observing newcomer LBH's, it's not hard to see their commonalities. One of the top things they want to do is show their changes to the WW. Physical changes are the easiest. Changing how we think is not easy when we are set in our ways. We usually need an intelligent source that teaches and encourages us how we can become a better version (however we determine "better"). Once we are full into adulthood, changing our behavior patterns takes much determination. Not only can a new behavior feel uncomfortable at times, but it's just so easy to fall back into old ways. By old ways, I am referring to unattractive, defeating, unprofitable, and unhealthy behavior.

The hard truth behind why we do the things we do........may come from a professional helping us sort through our experiences, becoming better educated about our particular problem, real life observations, harsh consequences, etc. If we really want to change, it begins with being brutal honesty with ourselves. Examining our true motivation behind our actions is vital to our growth, whether it takes guidance from an outside source or not.

Have you completed the NMMNG book? I hope it will do more than just open your eyes. I pray it will be life changing for you. Changing yourself will probably be the toughest job in you'll ever undertake. You may get upset at me when you read some things I have to say. I hope you'll see it as a challenge, and not just a disagreeable woman. I have recovered from my status of a WW, but I haven't forgotten how she thinks.

Changing how you approach or deal with people and situations in your life or that crosses your path......cannot be narrowed down to a few 180's you want the W to notice. Not only notice, but you want her to be impressed by those improvements. Although most newcomers won't admit it, they want the WW to be impressed enough to change her mind about ending the MR. Anyway........ I think you should forget about wanting "to show" your changes to her. That's part of the problem many men have. They think if they can make changes that will please the WW, it will fix the MR. They actually want to manipulate how WW sees her LBH, or how she feels, and what she does. Forget about trying to persuade her. It only distracts you from work that demands your time and attention. If you don't, then you will not succeed in changing from the person you are right now......to the one you want to become. Do you know who that man is? Is any man okay, just as long as it gets your W back? If not, then forget about sharing your work with her for now. Your work is for you. The M is already gone. So do this for yourself.

Maybe I am not telling you anything new. Okay, but you need to practice consistently until you are living no more Mr. Nice Guy. Don't keep the information you've read in reserve...... to only apply with your W. It has to become your life long behavior pattern. Otherwise, it's just a tactic. Your W is slick, and she knows all the buttons to push b/c she knows you better than anyone else. I'm sure you can imagine various scenarios where you astonish her with your NMMNG behavior, and she realizes she wants to be with you. She's more experienced at being a rebellious and hard-hearted W, than you are a NMMNG. So, I encourage you to focus on authentically becoming NMMNG.

Can you give experiences how NMMNG has changed your interactions with your co-workers? What about the friends you hang with? No matter who the group or individual, people will assume you are going to be the same ole nice guy as always. I would be interested in hearing some of your stories. Nothing will give you more self confidence than when you start living NMMNG and people start responding with respect for you as a man.

I was invited by MIL but I'm pretty sure it was approved by W as the last time I was invited by MIL W made it clear that she is not allowed to do that unless checking with W first. I declined the invite.

Good! Do you know why I say good? B/c your W made it clear she has to approve it first. If you had attended, knowing your MIL had to get your W's approval.......that would have been a nice-guy move.

I did not see her on Mothers day at all, sent her a text in the morning just saying "happy Mothers day I hope it's a great one for you" and I got 2 cards from the boys with Gift cards for her, as well

Your kids are 9 & 6. Next time, let them pick out the cards and gift. Just give them a price range.

I'm glad your W was able to respond favorably to your letter. Still, it was pursuit. You just wrapped it in a Mother's Day gift bag, and used the holiday as your opportunity to play on her emotions. Two pages worth of pursuit!

I wanted to recognize her as she is an amazing mother to my boys and this has really never wavered in this. I also wanted her to know that I now am also better recognizing what she has done over the past 10yrs.

Based on my observations, you wanted to take advantage of the opportunity the holiday gave. You wanted to stir her feelings. I get it. That's what men do when they want a woman. It's their nature to pursue the female. However, I just wonder if you have tried to control her feelings for so long that you believe your own excuses. Look, I'm just saying that if she had not left you......you probably would not have written a two page letter recognizing how amazing she is. It's a nice-guy tactic.

I'm sure you may disagree but part of my own work is being able to be vulnerable and open up (as well as acknowledge) my issues over the years.

Like I said, you are basically doing the same thing and just wrapping it up to suit your occasion. This time, it comes wrapped in as "part of your own work". If you can't be honest with us, at least be honest with yourself. Maybe you are blind b/c you've lied to yourself for so long you can't admit the truth. Look, I'm all for working to improve yourself, but do it without bringing her into it. You are still wanting to talk,talk, and talk her back. It doesn't matter if it's under the guise of a Mother's Day acknowledgement or working through some mental health issue.........you are trying to talk her back into the MR. It is a nice-guy tactic that doesn't hold up, b/c eventually, action is required. If you are co-dependent, have abandonment issues, etc., then fix it........but leave her alone. If I left a man, I certainly wouldn't want to help him with his emotional issues. After she's moved on, that's not really her main concern. She's done!

[P_Jam]

Sandi,
Thank you for taking the time to go into such detail. I’m not sure I can specifically disagree with any of your points. Only that we both know this is a process - both the NMMNG change as well as detachment- and therefore I will still take actions that are motivated by wanting her to see the changes. I will not try to deny that I want her to see the changes but it’s important for you to know; it isn’t the ONLY motivation.

I know the letters (and I’ve written 2) don’t align with DB’ing. But I do believe that in my specific situation both myself and W are LBS’s to some degree. I want to own my % of the breakdown of the M. And I wanted her to know that I could articulate and own these aspects completely separate from hers. I wanted her to know that she is a wonderful mother and that I appreciate what she has done in the past. Maybe “nice guy” stuff but it is authentic. It is not about getting something in return this time. It is not a covert contract. I wanted to say it no matter what happens in our R.


You asked how things have changed for me in regards to NMMNG… It’s not easy to articulate because although there are specific “changes” that I need to make in my actions (and some thought processes) its more about understanding who I really am ALREADY and being comfortable with that! One of the most important issues I have is being a people pleaser. Really needing people to ‘like’ me and through this process I’m learning to understand better who I really am (without other’s perceptions guiding me). I do still have a long way to go, being a people pleaser for so long (like a chameleon) I’m not 100% sure who I really am, but I am actively (daily) focusing on not having to be ‘something’ for other people. She’s only been out of the house for a month and although I miss our family, I don’t actually feel lonely. I’m enjoying the time and space very much. It’s a big change and it doesn’t feel normal yet – but I am enjoying it. As I expected, GAL has come VERY easy to me. I’m growing my social activities and network very aggressively and while I’m doing this – it’s happening much more naturally. I’m not gaining friends by being someone that I think they want me to be. I’m being ME - the currently ‘broken’ separated person that I am right now. The neophyte. It’s not always easy to talk about my situation with everyone but that’s because I don’t want to be focusing on it all the time, not because I’m scared to share it or to let people know who I really am or what is going on. I’m also noticing significant changes in my ‘perfectionism’. In numerous ways I have dropped a lot of this. I’m becoming more and more comfortable doing and being enough without trying to make everything perfect. I’m just way more comfortable doing what I WANT and not what I think others want. I’m much better at confrontation. This site is a good example. I like the advice here but I also like advice that is sometimes opposite so I’m doing WHAT I THINK IS BEST and I’m here giving all of you that information even when I know you are going to disagree with me.

Correct, I probably would not have wrote her a 2 page letter for Mother’s day if she did not leave me. But the letter/sincerity is a 180 for me and so I took the opportunity of Mother’s day to write the letter. Sandi, I do understand that the letters and the ‘talk’ can be more of the ‘nice guy’ stuff. I guess I should just not be interested because she cheated on me. However, I cheated on her as well. I’m trying to be as honest and objective as possible I’m not lying to you or myself (at least not trying to) – but as stated many times before I am also taking SOME advice from my IC which differs from DB. I’ve been open and honest about this. I’m not trying to mask anything – it is MY way forward. Which leads me to my most recent update (which you/DB and my IC) will most likely disagree with.


Had a great weekend GAL spent a lot of time on the golf course as well as going out with friends and meeting 2 different females that I’m confident I will hang out with again.  this is probably what everyone but me will disagree with as a positive thing (this early in my sitch). I got their numbers have we have texted a couple of times.
I also met with my W on Sunday to verbally finalize the expected Child Support, parenting plan, and financial settlement document. Quick recap in my state we were in an ‘intimate committed relationship’ (not a full marriage) so in essence once these documents are signed and filed with the court… there is nothing left legally regarding our R. So if we so choose, we can consider the “D” final. I think the talk went well. She still must sign the documents and she may want an increase in CS – but she will have to get an attorney and fight me on it if she doesn’t accept as is. Financially I believe her spending the money on an attorney and going through this will be a net lo$$. So NONE of this conversation was “nice Guy” trust me on that! I was firm, I was fair, but I got everything EXACTLY how I have wanted it from day one. I did not waiver at all and made this clear. Then I initiated a R talk. I told her that I would still like to see if this R has the ability for reconciliation and that I would be willing to date her again. HOWEVER if we move to this step I would expect monogamy during that time. She understood this request. I told her that offer will not stand indefinitely. I told her that I believe the time/space has been great for both of us and that I think right now is too early to make any final decisions, but I don’t believe she should need too much more time to decide if this family is worth working on or not. I do not like being “in limbo” and I either want to pour all of my energy into us and reconciliation or I want to pour it into a new life. I told her that I have some things that I want to do this summer and I said I don’t picture myself going the entire summer not knowing if I should be planning these events with her, the family, or other people. She asked “like what” – I said: “it shouldn’t matter – you would need to decide first”. She talked about the letters again and how much she appreciated them, she talked about missing me (I also told her I missed her). Then I hugged her, Kissed her, and we had sex! First time in 5 months. I initiated 100% of it but she responded 100% in return. I DO NOT THINK THIS MEANS ANYTHING. I did it because I wanted to. I knew I could, I had withheld all of that attention previously. Mostly to ‘not be a nice guy’ but also I had hoped that withholding would maybe ‘bring her around’. This time, it is what I wanted, so I went and got it. Then… I was about to miss my scheduled Tee time so I had to rush her out. She kinda gave me a funny look (as my time golfing and being a way from the house was a huge BD issue) but It wasn’t my weekend with the kids and the sex was over – so I walked out the door with her, locked the house, said have a nice day and went to the course.  not a nice guy thing!
This relationship may not work out – I get that! But I’m still confident that my situation is a bit unique. I still fear that she WILL come back and work on this but may not be willing to do all the things I would want moving forward (transparency plan, possibly new job, etc) or maybe she just cheats again. But no matter how objectively I try to look at this situation, her actions, I cannot get this sitch to fit into the normal WW box that seems to be so black and white on this site. This does not mean you are wrong, only that I am going to handle this situation how I feel is best, and I will continue to share that information here for you all. Again, I hope you are all still willing to provide your time and advice despite my resistance to SOME of your suggestions. I did what everyone told me not to.. and I did not get BD again. At least not yet, which I acknowledge is still possible. I may be plan b right now, or maybe plan C. Doesn’t matter. I’m not even sure she is Plan A for me. We have so much to work through. I just want that opportunity and I don’t believe she has to be totally broken (in my sitch) to get that opportunity. In my head, I think the most difficult part will be making sure I maintain my requirements and boundaries if and when she does say that she would like to date again, or ‘work’ on it. I am fearful of taking her back to soon, but because she is already out of the house I do not see dating or some commitment to work on it (with monogamy) to be taking her back. Only the first step.

[Gekko]

Hey PJam,

Sorry about your sitch and that you're here. I just wanted to chime in real quick after reading through this new thread and say that it seems like you are doing quite a bit of mindreading. A good example is in your post on 5-17 at 5:12 p.m. There are a lot of "I believe she is thinking..." statements in there. I think one of the majpr mantras here is to avoid mindreading like the plague, maybe a vet can confirm this. I know you have not fully bought into DB principles but this is one you may want to reconsider as it can lead you down a painful path.

I notice that you make a point to state that you believe your sitch is unique, implying that DBing "by the book" is not for you. I think it's technically true that all of our sitches are "unique", but there are a lot of commonalities. I would bet that the vets here have seen hundreds of sitches with fact patterns very similar to yours. You have to walk your own path and make your own decisions as to how to proceed, but I think it would be a mistake to assume that the vets who dish out advise here don't understand your sitch.

I am not trying to 2x4 you, I respect your decision to proceed as you wish, and all anyone here wants to do is help you out. Just some food for thought. Also, please be careful and stay protected when having sex with your WW as I believe from your thread she is in an active PA.

Good luck my friend.

[P_Jam]

Hi Gekko,
I agree 100%. I take zero offense to anyone here (especially the vets). I agree with your mind reading comments as well. I TRY not too but I think its impossible to not try and interpret how some things are received by W. Of course I don't know if I'm right or wrong just making some basic assumptions. What I fully accept is that I could be wrong but hopefully that doesn't change my actions too much as I'm still trying to make the best decisions possible with the information that is available.

I agree with most of the advice on here with the exception of overall timelines and the fact that WW needs to be fully BROKEN before anything can be worked on. My "justification' for this uniqueness is nothing more than my own infidelity in my relationship. We are both LBS and therefore I believe there is some flexibility that needs to be utilized. It's not that I don't 'buy in'. Reading all the sitchs that I've read I too can see a lot of consistency. I'm also fearful that I'm just stubborn - so I welcome 2x4's as well. I'm just trying to be open and honest about how I'm moving forward regardless of what people may think/suggest. But I DO NOT DISCOUNT the different perspectives at all.

[LH19]

PJ,

I don't think based on what you have posted that you can and will deny that your wife has been unhappy for awhile. For her to figure why she was unhappy IMO is going to take longer then 3 months.

Look I agree with you that your situation is a little different then most situations in that it's not because you got fat and lazy or because your a wimpy beta. I think it is more because she didn't feel loved and wasn't get her needs met.

Your situation is a lot like mine. We had sex right up to the week she left and I am talking about all kinds. The main reason why was for the last 10-12 months I never once tried to change her mind or asked her to reconsider. I realized that if we were ever going to be in a relationship again it would be because it was her idea and she had to make amends for all the pain she caused everyone.

If you engage in a relationship with her again it should only be under the conditions that:

1) She sees you as someone of extremely high value
2) She views a relationship with you as something much better than a life with someone else or a life alone
3) She's willing to work to win you

Without those three things, she's going to walk again down the line, because she really doesn't have the motivation to work with you to change anything, your relationship will keep seeking the same equilibrium it has had because of how your personalities and issues come together.

[P_Jam]

LH !!

We agree again! I think you're starting to read into my sitch (actually reading me) quite well. I'm fit, attractive, financially successful, anything but lazy and although I agree there are some nice guy issues I don't really see myself as a beta either. Most would not consider me beta at all. That being said; I do recognize that I treated my W differently than most of my outward personality to others. Furthermore, I had a VERY SIGNIFICANT ISSUE for 12 months last year at my last company... it tore me to my emotional core (picture fetal position at home). I was not present for my family at all and put WAY TOO much weight on how my new boss perceived me as well as the job I was doing. I'm sure there was A LOT of respect lost during that time. You are also correct, she did not feel loved and was not getting her needs met. The loved and not getting her needs met probably goes back 18-24 months and then the 12 months of my career issue on top of it.

With all of that being said; I'm confident that she has her own NGS issues. She was never able to articulate her unhappiness (or I wasn't able to understand it) and her stepping out has A LOT to do with her. So I agree with your 3 items listed above. BUT - I also believe the fog is starting to fade just a little right now. As I tried to articulate above... I think those 3 items are critical - I'm just not convinced it has to happen without MC or without being totally broken first. NOW! my fear is - you are actually correct and that she will come back and work on it but not realize her actions are based more on her choices and unresolved issues than they are mine. Which is why I still maintain a little MLC going on. So maybe I am trying to short-cut this. I hope not, but my Alpha male will not sit and wait. Nor do I believe that I will actually become so soft that I begin to ease on my boundaries/requirements if/when she does start working on the relationship. <-- but it is possible and I need to watch this.

Emotionally ready or not... I have incredible opportunities with very attractive females and those relationships are already starting for me. This has helped me detach very quickly in the last 2 weeks. I know this is probably not the "best" approach - but it is probably the quickest way to an end the attachment one way or the other. I know they are not what I want in the long run, but they know my situation 100% and soon enough they will end up helping me completely drop the rope.

I believe that items 1 & 2 are not that far off. I think she sees me as someone of High value now (but not extreme high value). I think the fog is lifting because she has already started to see that life alone is not what she wants. Although I do believe she is confused on how/what it takes to make a relationship work. She believes there is a "Mr. Right" and when she finds him relationships will be easy and create the happiness she's looking for (WRONG!). This is what is holding her back (which is one reason I want MC). Then number 3... this is the big one! I cheated (granted much longer ago than her and I came clean on my own) but she is scared to work with me because of this - which is understandable. So now (right or wrong) maybe you can see why I feel motivated to "talk" to her. There is legitimate reason that she needs to see and be reminded that she should work with me. But I 100% agree that she really needs to want it as well. Mark my words - this sitch will know exactly which way it is going in 3-6 months. It will be piecing or I will be gone.

Yes.. I'm mind reading - my perception is usually pretty keen - but again, if I'm wrong it will not change my overall approach. I feel confident to pursue in certain ways while also maintaining my distance, self respect, and boundaries. I am worth every bit of it! and I know I'm worth A LOT more then what she has going on now. But I do acknowledge that because of the mistakes I made. She not only has every right to move on, she has emotional reasons (legitimate) to not come back. I can easily understand and respect that. Simply because I look at her, her actions, and our ability to reconcile the same way. I'm just 2-3 steps farther down the road in accepting the issues and being willing to TRY.

[LH19]

PJ,

I think your not taking into account that even if you move forward and end up in another relationship that doesn't mean you won't reconcile down the road.

YouTube Athol Kay "Grass is Greener"

[P_Jam]

LH,
You are correct. I don't deny that. Especially with such young kids. Staying involved with their sports and Dr. appt's its REALLY hard to even go one week without having face to face interaction with my W and we don't even hand off the kids to each other very often. I do see that as a possibility but I see that in a different context. I also have a harder time believing I will want/willing to take her back at that point. Maybe it's arrogance or more naivete but I believe that once the the rope is fully dropped I will actually be the one that moves on faster - but it is possible.

spent 5hrs with her today due to Dr. appt for S9. Same car, traffic, etc. It was even fun. Some of it is still cause I'm with her and I like that, second when I'm with her I know she isn't with anyone else, but its also an opportunity to lovingly detach in person. Because I was so 'locked-in" to her for a while I always knew I was giving off an "attached' vibe. But that is not the case now. I'm sure it's still not the same to her as when I fully drop the rope but I believe it is close. I can tell by the questions she tries to slide in. I'm having fun being happy and content around her without pursuit. It's all starting to come around.

[LH19]

P,

Yeah it's funny that while your trying to fake it until you make it you think you're fooling the person that knows you better then anyone on this planet.

Just remember anymore letters or "I will always be there for your statements" gives her more time to explore her fantasy.

You're doing great! Keep it up.

[P_Jam]

Yeah, I don't think I have anything more to say (letters) and I've never said I wold ALWAYS be there for her.
Because I know she is still a little confused about what she wants I wanted her to know that I have a mental timeline and that my "limbo" situation would only last so long. I think its important (in my sitch) that she take some real time then make a conscious decision to say no (or BD again) whatever happens. In my opinion this let's her know/feel that Plan B either becomes plan A for a while so that can see if we're both willing to put in the work for R. The time/space/apartment can be used for whatever the hell she wants/needs between now and then, but she will need to make a decision relatively soon (especially if she wants to do anything together as a family this summer) <-- which I know she's thinking about.

Thanks to all of you again. I've been very direct (and even argumentative) in a few posts. But its only my "type A" personality that feels necessary to do it "my way". I've had a good couple of weeks and I'm sure I will have some bad ones coming up where; for whatever reason I'll be here looking for support. I hope you're still willing to provide it.