04/25 Journaling from an defensive posture but confidant side in my abilities and worth. (Its funny how you can easily take your WAS and sich off your mind when you take a defensive stance, let go, and look after yourself.)
W and I had a discussion the other last night about S1, date/weekend swaps last night. She wants me and her to get together with all of our mothers for Mother's Day which falls on my weekend with S1. I told her I would have to think about it. I agreed that whether we do Mother's Day together or separate, S1 will spend time with her, despite it being my weekend. We planned our scheduling into June well into Father's day which is also my weekend with S1. I was considering having him for the whole weekend for Father's Day, but she was in disagreement with it even though its Fathers Day and my weekend again with S1. So I basically left it tentative and open for discussion as FD nears.
I was considering doing Mother's Day together, but after mediation/child custody/house sale discussion last night. I might decide to keep the holidays separate still. Special celebrations I'll put my differences aside and attend. So we hammered out a schedule for the next month and a half, she invited me on a vacation or two.
So W has scheduled a Realtor for potential improvements and market value evaluation for this Sun. The last time we had this discussion she got really upset, started crying, and getting mildly hysterical, with the crocodile tears, because she believes in her mind that I'm holding her hostage to the house and mortgage, I'm not going to go along with it and sign any documents pertaining to the sale of the home. She just wants to sell it, dump the mortgage, pay off her outstanding debts, get whatever profit from house sale, split it, and start a new. She's going to be bouncing back and forth living at MIL new apartment, and their weekend trailer. Although I do encourage her and support her chasing all of her hopes and dreams, I am curious to see how reality plays out with all of these bucket list things of hers, and whether she's going to achieve them, or get a hard dose of the real world?
I have had to explain to her at least 15 times now. That I will accommodate her by finishing the house projects, moving my stuff into storage, and preparing for both of us to live separately else where outside the MH, and securing a place for myself and S1 after sale. But I will not initiate or help with the sale process other than review and closing. It is not my choice to leave the M, or my best interest to leave the M home on her timeline or agenda, unless I'm forced to. (Which I am because I probably cannot refinance, or swing the full mortgage on my own. I also made a point to her that half the marital property is hers and half the marital property is mine. That I am the one that has vested all of my own money on the improvements over the last seven years. We have recently agreed to split the cost of materials needed to finish the open-ended and finishing touches of the projects.
Its not my job to do the leg work for her or make it easier for her. She can figure it out for herself. If she needs anything from me to review and sign, I will review it, and if I feel after reviewing it, we agree it is in both our best interest, I will sign it to finalize sale.
She says to me: "So as long as she does all the leg work, and as long as I get my share of the profit split for doing absolutely nothing and not being involved in the process." I just validated: "I'm sorry you feel that way and that we see things differently." She thinks I'm trying to be punitive. So I validated again: "I'm sorry you feel that way. I'm not trying to be punitive. You are getting what you want either way. How am I interfering in any way, and how am I not doing my part to accomdate you in attaining your goal?
It is not my decision to sell, or leave the M Or MH. That it isnt fair to me that I'm forced to relocate, and go through the troubles of moving and securing a new place when I like it here, and it serves our S1 better, while she gets to go off and start a whole new life with a fresh start, while also taking half the profits if we make any from the sale.
I made this very clear and non-negotiable to her. So I am essestialy setting her free, but I'm only going to do what's required.
She also wants to quit her current job as a special needs teacher behavioral specialist by this June, which she makes about $63 K annually with amazing health insurance as a Behaviorist. She wants to work from home remotely as a Remote Health Coach Nutrition Specialist/startup business to be home with S1. Average median is $48k. This is something that she does have a little bit of training from online weight loss modules. But has absolutely no real world experience in or experience in running a 1099 or independant business.
She is now expressing interest in Child custody, parenting plans and child support. But a few months ago, she wasn't interest in going the legal route, or retaining a L, but was considering a mediator with everything. I'm pretty sure she's intimidate by the legalities, the costs, and doesn't understand legalise, nor had done her research. She's too busy looking at $50k houses, day dreaming of her new life every night, and watching reality shows. I'm a dope for bringing up the subject a few months ago, and now I'm asking for marital documents to copy pertaining all mortgage, marital, and S1 info to copy just to be prepared info since she retains some of them in her file bin in guest room. I just want copies to have a consultation to see what my options are.
LBS's take note of this. Do not let your WAS know what you are doing as far as legal consultations unless asked, and even then. Do initiate R talks, or educate them on CS talks or Mediator talks. Do not let the left hand know what the right hand is doing. Take your heart out of the equation and protect yourself and your children. Let them get educated and do their own work and research.
7 months of no interest in the subject. She sent me a link to a local mediator last night through text. So I was like.
H: Ok? What do you want me to do with this? W: Research her I guess to see if it's someone you want to use W: I think we would go to the mediator together. If you want to ask a lawyer questions youd go on your own H: I don't think a mediator is of any interest to me, or you. We already have informal agreements being met on good faith related to split finances, split responsibility, debts, child scheduling, etc. Only interest a mediator, (at least a consultation ) for me would be for marital property, and child custody. So far we are agreeable on all. Yes? W: So far, but I want something more concrete in place for custody... I dont know how all if this works.
She has no idea that our state doesn't have 50/50 custody or legal seperation, just sole physical custody and legal, shared and joint. CP and NPC. No idea about alimony, CS calculations, imputed income, voluntary unemployment, etc. I don't think she even realizes the purpose of a mediator is to solve disputes, legal, parental, or otherwise, and as of current, we don't have any other than POV.
After I wrote this. I was walking around the house grabbing a few things. Silence being so thick, walking past her not even looking in her direction like its been for the past 5 months. I decided to make an espresso, and just sit on the couch across from her while she indulged in her shows with a blank, concerned, depressed face. So just for the hell of it. Not because I wanted to make a connection. Just wanted to see if it was me or her that has been creating this distance. Just wanted to see if she was ok. We had a really good talk, no R talks, (believe me I'm done having them as they are exhausting.) But the usual talks about personal growth, concerns, goals, individual dreams, etc. I'm going to compose and update that convo later. Interesting topics and dynamics, some that I've noticed several times before, each time now with a new perspective on dynamics.
I made this very clear and non-negotiable to her. So I am essestialy setting her free, but I'm only going to do what's required.
She also wants to quit her current job as a special needs teacher behavioral specialist by this June, which she makes about $63 K annually with amazing health insurance as a Behaviorist. She wants to work from home remotely as a Remote Health Coach Nutrition Specialist/startup business to be home with S1. Average median is $48k. This is something that she does have a little bit of training from online weight loss modules. But has absolutely no real world experience in or experience in running a 1099 or independant business.
IHCLACS - I'm gonna be honest with you and say that your last post really sounds like pursuit. You say you're letting her go but then you spend the whole next paragraph rationalizing how she's doesn't know what she's doing. Being detached means you let that go. It really, really sounds like you're spending a lot inordinate time on what she ought to be doing. That's pursuit, and she probably feels it and is going to make choices on the basis of that, and they're not going to be turning her towards you.
Look, she's made up her mind to leave. She will leave. The only choice you have is the last thing she'll see when she looks back. If there is a chance for you guys you have to let go, detach, and show her that there is still the guy in there she initially fell for when she met you. Your other choice is to show her the resentment and hurt you're expressing. Nobody has ever said "I want to return to a situation when now the man I left might not trust me and resent me for leaving in the first place." Even if she thinks it's her fault, she'll scramble away from your negativity as fast as she can. Imagine if someone kept telling you that you're making the wrong choices, and not validating your agency. Would you respect that?
Let. Go.
Someone who is detaching is focused on their daily positives in their writing. The things that made them feel good about themselves. What do they hope to achieve and the positive outcome they think it will bring. What happened lately that made you feel good? I'm not saying pretend to be happy, or never write about the negative feelings you have, but don't use up so much space to describe your resentment towards what she's doing. In psychology it's a form of rumination. Like constantly repeating a mantra that dictates your driving motivation. If you ruminate on resentment, resentment is going to grow. Resentment is insidious like that - it rewires the brain, and you both have been doing the rewiring for a long time. It will take a long time to undo it, but it has to first be a conscious choice. Until it becomes habitual. Then it gets easier.
Want another analogy? I'm full of them. (Ha!) Whenever I think about the enormity of what I'm confronting I imagine a giant stone wheel on a pivot. It's turning fast. It built up a lot of momentum over the years, but it wasn't always spinning in this direction. There was a time when the wheel spun the other way. That was the time when me and my W loved each other. It took us both contribute negative energy to force it to stop then spin the way it rotates now. It wasn't a big, abrupt change. It's was the collective action of small choices and dynamics that got it going that way, and so it will take a long time, and a consistent inverse input of energy to restore the original spin. That's the only choice you got - add more to its current inertia? Or slow it down, stop it, and reverse it? Consistency is key.
Incidentally, have you read Melissa Orlov's "The ADHD Effect on Marriage: Understand and Rebuild Your Relationship " I think, that if ADD is in the picture you need to read this book (I can't remember if someone mentioned it to you before). Anyway, it's a compassionate look at the dynamics that develop in relationships where the disorder is present. When I first read it, it almost cut me off at the knees; it was like someone followed me and my W around for 10 years and took notes. It described my marriage exactly down to the smallest detail. Maybe you'll find your self in it as well. Anyhow, it's full of very accurate advice from a person who has lived the situation her self and managed to recover. I can't recommend it enough.
As an aside, something happened to me today that affirmed a lot of what I'm trying to relate in this forum. I'm separated but still live with W and our two kids. At this point in my situation I feel pretty detached, and feel an odd and very transient pang of anger and resentment, but it's brief and manageable. I go for a walk and it goes away. As soon son as I've finally managed to corral and drop my pursuit (the ruminating, following her around, explaining her feelings to her, all the stuff involved in pursuit) the mood in the house turned around almost over-night. She stopped agitating for physical separation, and lately things have become rather pleasant. By no means is anything over, and I continue to be wary of the things she says, but they don't really affect me any more. I know she's anxious, and worried about the future, but me letting go has reduced a lot of the signal noise she had to deal with. So now the conversations about taking next steps don't feel torture sessions, and sometimes it feels like we're a team again. This is important because at the heart of our issues is lost trust, and having these little exchanges rebuilds that trust-bridge we tore down over the years. One brick at a time. I know I have to be patient. So that's where we are now.
Anyway, W has recently concluded her course-work for her PHd. I offered that we celebrate it in some small way. Nothing big. Just an excuse to go get some all-you-can-eat sushi with the kids. I make a reservation at the restaurant and we show up. We're greeted by a very attractive maitre d'. I'm feeling pretty good, smiling, crack a few jokes with her. She returns a smile. Then while she has the waiter prep a table for us my kids complain that they need to go to the bathroom. W offers to take them and disappears to the bathroom leaving me alone with the other woman.
Then out of nowhere, the maitre d' looks at me squarely and with a big smile asks me "So how has your day been?" I say "Great! I'm really looking forward to the sushi." I wink and then add in conspiratorial tone, "I've been starving myself all day in preparation." She laughs genuinely, and then we continue in conversation. Then it hits me. We're flirting! This isn't any longer a polite, business-like exchange of pleasantries but a full on expression of mutual interest. It was such an odd feeling because I experienced something that hasn't happened to me in a while.
Now I'm not telling you this to make you feel bad, or trumpet my own success. The point is that me letting go of my W has allowed me to be me again. To feel free of gloom and indecision. To experience options. Once I dissipated that cloud over my head I started to notice that people respond differently to me, including my W. Even though my situation is far from over I do feel that I am going to be ok. It's incredibly affirming that all the hard work, in spite of the pain and hurt, is starting to pay off. I'm getting my self-worth back, and it's attracting people to me. Maybe that person will be my wife.
This is the point of letting go.
PS: It's funny, but until now, I don't think my young-self understood what my dad's answer when I then asked him, "Dad? What's the secret to having success with women?" He answered, "Having options."
Marc. I can Definately go for some "all you can eat buffet sushi" if you catch my drift. ;-) Just no red snapper...lol.. Did some housework this weekend, heat went out in house. Went out with younger brother for lunch, drinks and cigars. W texted me realtor was coming at 3pm as a courtesy. Ignored text. Felt good to relax and talk about life with someone close to me who understands me like kid brother. I think we both felt like ourselves again. Came home charged. I almost though I walked into the wrong house. House was clean from top to bottom (for realtor of course or company, never for herself.) Didn't say much to me. I just played with S1. I was actually impressed and gave several compliments to W on how nice house looked, she really deserved credit where credit is due. She started going off about realtor, price range suggestions, etc. I just nodded, listened, smiled, said ok, and just walked away. I have absolutely no interest in her or her agenda. I almost wanted to smile and say "I really don't GAF" But nothing wrong with being polite, smiling, less is more, let them read between the lines and figure it our th same way they expect us to read their social cues. I can't wait to just move on with my life.
Ready, when you figure this out, let me know because I believe we are all in awe trying to figure out how they could care less that their children will be in a broken family.
Since I was just conversing on Wolfman's post, and we were discussing incentives for wanting to stay. It got me thinking. I'm sure that most of us here feel like currently in the midst of our situations that there is no incentive to want to stay. However looking at the people who did successfully avoid their divorces on here. We all know that time and space heals. We also know that we changed through and because of the process. If everyone here, and the vets, advocates being in the present and accepting the present situation, accepting there WAS for who they are, where they are in life right now, and accept that the relationship and current MR is over and dead. That the only way through this is to rebuild yourself, improve yourself and only be responsible for yourself and your actions, thoughts, words,deeds, and behaviors. Not to live in the past of the person you knew, or the marriage you knew....
Here is a provocative $64,000 Question? What keeps hope alive for most people here? Going off of what you knew, and how you knew it, and how you knew them? (Coming from good memories of the past.) Or is it because you like what you see in the changes that you make for yourself, as well as the changes you are witnessing unfolding from your WAS in the present?
I understand that respect and trust clearly need to be earned back, and to do that it tastes consistency and time which I also understand. For those of you here who have pieced, and have experience piecing. At what point did the tides turn and you became hopeful again and what were the indications and reasons why? I'm not looking for timelines as that's irrelevant to me. I want to know the how's and why's of how trust and respect was restored, how communication was opened again, and how far does someone have to fall to get there? Was it because of a willingness for both parties to cooperate, and attempt to relate again? Can anyone of you list any of your personal experiences on redeveloping trust and softening walls, once the willingness of respect and trust is attempted with sincerity to be earned back.
I know that from this experience, myself and my W will never be the same again. But that's also a good and a bad thing. I realize that you have to let go of someone and your idea who they are, and I realize that neither one of us will be the same two to three years from now, whether together or not it will definitely be a growing experience and a learning experience which I'm probably going to love and hate at the same time. I'm just curious from the experts on here that did decide to renew their M. What was it like starting a new? What was said? How did it start? What was the conversation, the way it happened and the starting point? From what everyone says on here, when and if I do know I will definitely know for sure without all the wishy-washyness, providing full commitment sincerity and humility. I guess what I'm asking is once everyone started a new again what did that conversation dialogue look like?
Because right now I have absolutely no incentives or intentions to want to stay M. other than the possibility of time to see how this unfolds in the future out of curiosity. But I will admit. A healthy part of my self-respect, pride and my ego will always say: " I will never be or accept being Plan B" to someone else's goals, dreams, desires, and relationships. There is not going to be a "oops I screwed up get-out-of-jail-free card" for my WAW years from now if he does decide to return, unless there's some real change, real humility, real honesty, real discussion, and respect, as well as the willingness to see the other person's point of view.
Your situation reminds me a bit of mine. No affair, no girls/boys gone wild, no rudeness or disrespect. Just a spouse who is done.
And I think you are asking the wrong questions.
Your wife is saying she doesn’t want to live with a man who is moody, very critical, leaves all the parenting to her (or did until BD), and relies on her working an emotionally draining job to provide financial stability and health insurance for the family.
You don’t need to be talking about what you need from her in order to take her back. You need to be asking how you can develop empathy to understand how your words and actions affected her and how you can 180 your behaviors so you are a person who is emotionally healthy to be in a relationship with.
Stay focused on your side of the street. It’s plenty messy.
And that’s the beauty of divorce busting—cleaning up our stuff, without worrying about our partner’s stuff—can dramatically improve our relationship.
Me: 44 H: 44 Kids: 20, 16, 16, and 10 Together/Married: 22 years H announced he was emotionally detached and considering D: 4/4/16 H announced he is going to try to stay and reconnect: 5/1/16
All very true Rose... All very true... I honestly do, and try to look at her situation with empathy at least once a week, to remind myself. Its what keeps me humbled. I am honestly working on my emotional well being through counciling and coaching, and I am learning so much and getting better at my responding rather than reacting. I have had a list of 180's since Jan and have been working to make them habit. As far as the focus on my side of the street, well that goes back and forth with me weekly. But I am becoming more detached by the week, and having more clairvoyance after 7 months of this. I guess I look at both sides quite frequently to replay or find any dynamics I can work on or be aware of for myself in the future. But your analysis is spot on (Of her perception anyway.) Mine is much different. I add a lot of these up as perceived judgements and not facts.
"Your wife is saying she doesn’t want to live with a man who is moody, very critical, leaves all the parenting to her (or did until BD), and relies on her working an emotionally draining job to provide financial stability and health insurance for the family."
These are all true in my honest judgement, except the parenting part, and I do have my own insurance. Hers is better however. At least it will be until she quits this year.
Me: 44 H: 44 Kids: 20, 16, 16, and 10 Together/Married: 22 years H announced he was emotionally detached and considering D: 4/4/16 H announced he is going to try to stay and reconnect: 5/1/16
Honestly, Rose is right. Developing empathy means not writing posts where you focus on and criticize your wife's choices. Empathy means you support her choices because you recognize the pain she's in. You don't have agree with them. It's also not something, as you say, you do once in a while. Empathy is a total commitment to consideration of someone else's feelings. Until you you recognize what she must be dealing with you won't be able to forgive the pain she's causing you - and move on.
Mark I actually do empathize with the pain she's in, going through, and I support what she is doing or wanting to do with her life. Even though I don't agree with it. She is finally admitted to me that she's going through a soft midlife crisis. She actually wants to write a book about it and strikethrough the word crisis and call it transformation, transition, renovation or whatever she calls it.
It's not that I don't recognize or dismiss the changes and the pain that she's going through. I'm more than well aware of it and realize this is about her. Just for the hell of it because she looked really depressed and confused last week, I reached out to her last week and we had a good discussion about some of the her feelings and thoughts about moving forward with her new life, how she's going to do it what she wants to achieve a lot of dreams and goals she has....etc... I just have to make it a conscious effort to keep it at the forefront of my mind at all times. When I do I'm relaxed because it's not about me and I know it. I just shut up validated and listen.
However we all go back and forth with our thoughts and emotions and cycles individually in these situations. There is no wrong or right answer. People want to live their lives the way they want to live their lives and you can't control them, and I get that you just have to let them go. But what LBS on here wouldn't be a little bit hurt, a little bit pi$$ed, and a little bit critical at times? We wouldn't call it a "fog" if we didn't see it for what it was. Either way the fog is just a generalization and a theory, but a good one for all of us to make sense and find common ground with what we are experiencing in our spouses
So you’ve decided her decision to leave the marriage has nothing to do with you as a spouse?
Me: 44 H: 44 Kids: 20, 16, 16, and 10 Together/Married: 22 years H announced he was emotionally detached and considering D: 4/4/16 H announced he is going to try to stay and reconnect: 5/1/16
I am a part of the reason why she is leaving the M Rose. Not all of it. Are you asking out of curiosity or are you trying to lead me torwards something?
Trying to understand comments like “this is about her” and the reason your posts overwhelmingly position you as a victim, instead of focusing on your 180s and personal growth.
Me: 44 H: 44 Kids: 20, 16, 16, and 10 Together/Married: 22 years H announced he was emotionally detached and considering D: 4/4/16 H announced he is going to try to stay and reconnect: 5/1/16
Actually Rose quite the opposite. She's the victim with all of the "justifications" for leaving. Some being legitimate on my side of the street which I am working on or doing 180's on. No accountability on her side. But that's ok.. Because it no longer matters to me, nor does she or what she does. My focus will be strictly me and my S1 now. People need to meet other people halfway to come to the realization of how they got there in the first place. Im not going to take all the blame as to why another person is unhappy with their lives. Try and understand this from a Man's perspective, and Ill try and understand having more empathy torwards a woman's perspective.
Uhhh!!! I can't take this anymore. This will be the 8th or 9th time W has asked me to take off from work to watch our S1 to alleviate my MIL which I understand, and want to help MIL. W has been frequently taking off of work the last 5 months between Dr's visits Again if you read my sich... W had me miss 3 days of work over the last 4 months for Gastric Bypass consultations, but failed to commit to the actual surgery and blames me for it, because apparantly she doesn't trust me enough to care for S1 for perceived month recovery time.) Plus I've taken off of work 5 more times in addition to alleviate MIL and W for FIL who has dementia and Dr's appointments. Plus anytime I have a rain day, and Im off from work, I volunteer to watch S1 to alleviate MIL. So I have missed quote a few days, and am losing $$$ to prepare for whatever moves I need to make in the near future. We have even had my brother and niece baby sit for a week (Whom my W never liked or trusted, until now when she needs something, to watch S1 because of all this.
I have had the discussion, that I want to help MIL, love to help, and love spending time with S1 several times with W for these circumstances, but there needs to be limits, and advanced notice, and some time sharing for these circumstances. While living under the same roof, she still puts the responsibility on me that its my obligation to take off to watch S1 as a father should for his son, despite it being W and my MIL's issue. I have suggested to W several times over these circumstances that moving forward, we need to find a baby sitter. Im tired of being the built in yes man baby sitter. On the other hand I don't want to be an ingrate, because MIL has watched S1 for last 1.5 years.
After being minimal to NC other than logistics for 6 months. She only reaches out when she needs something from me. Im so sick of it. Like how many times do I have to say "I'm happy to help, but there needs to be limits, and every time I try to enforce them, or at least balance them, I get the "He's your son too" guilt trip, Im sick of this manipulation, But I want to be there for S1 too. This boundary needs to have some teeth and limits, I just don't know if it will bite me in the behind later.
Not once have I asked W to take off of work for the same reasons, but she has not only used all sick days for her own personal reasons, and family reasons, but expects me to take off to "balance" her absences.
Sounds like S needs to be in daycare. Obviously you can't risk losing your job by taking so much time off. And if your FIL has dementia then your MIL has her hands full and should not be expected to be a nanny. Taking care of a one-year-old is a lot to ask of a relative. Are you paying her?
Have a post upcoming of last night discussion but first, found out when I got home MIL has aggressive uterine cancer. She beat colon cancer 6 years ago after chemo and reconstruction. MIL will be having hysterectomy. W started to get a little upset in announcing this to me. Then shut down. I offered that when and if she is willing to discuss this with me, or needs support, I am there. If I need to take off from work., I am there. I tried to be as empathetic of the situation as possible.
Its my night off. I offered to stay if she needs anything, help with S1 and scknowledged she is dealing with a lot! She refused. Before I left, she was talking to someone who wasn't family related on phone. Don't know who. I kissed S1 goodbye, and she said see you later in a platonic neutral sense, like she was surprised how I was dressed, but was being or trying to be emotionally neutral.
I'm at Barnes and Noble right now reading Should I Stay or Should I Go? Great boom so far as far as what Women think and experience and the reasons for leaving, also what Men can do to progress and change. Pretty balanced.
I would like to get a show of hands and opinions here. I'm curious. This is for self-awareness and personal growth purpose. Where does anger and defensiveness get rooted from and for everyone here and why? For me I've come to the realization that no matter how good my intentions, or for my efforts, my unprovoked anger stems from being misunderstood, especially by those close to me romantic relationships (or lack there of) I'm trying harder everyday to emphasize more with people, and I think I'm doing a fairly good job at it.
Good question IHCLACS. Also I think you meant "empathize" not "emphasize" =)
For me, it's mostly NGS. The book explains it way better than I can. Learned behavior from a childhood of emotional neglect.
Anger - Covert contracts (and their ineffectiveness) -> doing more and more for my partner, hoping to get what I want in return - Assuming my partner knows what I want, then getting frustrated/angry when I don't get it - Lack of empathy for my partner's anger/resentment - Lack of self-respect - giving my partner control over my decisions, in an effort to please
Defensiveness - Feeling accused, rather than (again) empathizing with my partner - Problem-solving attitude, rather than listening - Feeling misunderstood, feeling like partner is projecting her feelings onto me sometimes - Feeling as if all our issues are "communication" problems, and I am practicing "good" communication
Honestly when we went to MC, I found it hard to ask for what I wanted... I was so used to the pattern of "do what I think my W wants, then maybe she will show me affection" that I completely lost touch of my own needs.
I'm also trying hard to empathize and validate lately. Practicing on everyone, not just W (my kids, friends, coworkers when appropriate). Many times in our M, during heated discussions, my W would say "It's not all about you!" and I never understood it. I thought I was apologizing, saying "I'm sorry" and "I won't do it again." Poor listening, poor validating.
I have really started working on my empathy and validation skills since I decided to try to apologize to my wife for things that happened in the last 2 years. Because she was not sharing with me, I wrote some letters and tried to put myself in her shoes: "When I <...> I can imagine you felt <...>" or "You must have felt so hurt when I <...>". I'm not sure it helped with any healing, but I think that's another form of empathy -- gotta be careful not to mind-read, but you can practice placing yourself in their shoes and imagine their experience.
Well I got some yard work done today, cleaned my car, etc. I wanted to get the backyard cleaned up as side to not finish the whole thing and make a whole entire day out of it. I feel kind of guilty and I'm beating up on myself for not finishing the whole thing. I'm leaving for a work trip for the week Monday. Here's what I'm struggling with right now. But I have my time to myself in the house I want to spend some of the with my son but on the other hand I want to get the hell out of the house and party and get the hell away from the W and GAL as much as possible now. The question is where one with who? I feel guilty because I'm not finishing the things I should be spending my time on, like house and packing priorities. But I also feel as if I don't live a little while go insane just being here. It's almost like before I was always motivated to get things done because of what the home and the marriage stood for . Now that she wants to sell the house and doesn't want to give me a say in it, other than I can't probably afford to buy her out. My mindset is if they can do this to you once while given the chance to do it to you again in the future? Im 99% ready to pull the trigger and say F@$k it! Anyone else struggle with this? With a guilt of not doing enough, because you just need to get away and enjoy life, because of all the emotional chaos these situations are causing us? Every time I have to do yard work it's takes so much labor and effort that I get really resentful towards the W and I know that's on me. But the way I see it she helped me with it maybe a handful of times and seven years and made her shows and her games and saw more of a priority. It's funny how they complain they never get enough help but yet when we wanted and complains to get it we're emotionally abusive?
It's funny how they complain they never get enough help but yet when we wanted and complains to get it we're emotionally abusive?
I identify with this. Knowing full well I was actually abusive a few times. But not anywhere near to the degree I am made out to be.
I'm new here, but I think I can help.......
This is all about perception. When I was in the service (intel.... yeah yeah, I know the joke) we had a saying "If I can control your perceptions.... I own you".
These people's perceptions are not their own. If you could clear that up, no problem. Since you can't..... do what you can, but realize it doesn't matter what you do.... it doesn't matter what you feel.... it doesn't matter if you're right. What does matter is that you're doing your absolute best and not dinking around. You have to answer to your conscious, and unlike the spouse you don't get the luxury of lying to yourself.
Yeah I hear that Soloflex. If there is one thing I realized is when you actually put the focus back on yourself, what your perception of reality is, and are brutally honest with yourself about yourself, your own shortcomings, theirs, etc, You start to really see the similarities of the unattractive qualities and discrepancies (possibly in different areas of your life) of yourself and your partner being the same. Like does indeed attract like in a sense. Plus, you get great clairity of the effed up dynamics. Soloflex. Im finally ridding the guilt of my shortcomings, starting to take more action, and using it as fuel post divorce. I'm not worried about her perception anymore. Only my frame and perception matters now. I had a bit of a 3am anxious rager moment last week. Couldn't figure out why. Did 60 push ups to alleviate the rage, and introspected on it. Its because all the prior R talks always left me feeling completely misunderstood. That's when I truly realized only my perception counts, my principles, values, core beliefs, etc. If they don't line up with theirs, if there are communication issues, different belief issues. Let them go. Waste of time, space, and effort.
Just out of curiosity? What branch of service? I'm not military, but have mariners and army in family. Was involved with para military until BD. Thank you for supporting our country.
I'm beginning to understand what you're talking about, the whole stepping back and examining my faults and W's faults (and both have many).
It's hard to see your spouse with the rose colored glasses off. I'm starting to do it now, and it's an eye opener. It's easier (for me) to honestly look at myself and pick out faults to work on. I kinda enjoy that. To be honest, I feel more alive now than anytime I can remember. Truly is "Use the Time Wisely" moment, it IS a gift.
For me anger often stems from trying to control what I have no control over. That breeds frustration and anger. Probably my biggest growth since my sitch had been letting go of that which I can't control.
M(53), W(54),D(19) M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017 Ring and Piecing since March 2018
For me anger often stems from trying to control what I have no control over. That breeds frustration and anger. Probably my biggest growth since my sitch had been letting go of that which I can't control.
That's a great point Steve,
Such a hard thing too. My W and I have these phone trackers so that we can see where each other is, and it beeps when either of us get home or arrive at work. We got it so we'd always be able to help each other if one was in trouble.
This weekend I turned off the alerts on my phone, and haven't looked once to see where she is. Essentially I have no idea where she is, or what she's doing. She's a grown woman and can make her own decisions about where she is and what she's doing. I don't need to know. Baby steps, thank you Jesus.
For me anger often stems from trying to control what I have no control over. That breeds frustration and anger. Probably my biggest growth since my sitch had been letting go of that which I can't control.
Im exactly the same. That was my biggest 180. I showed that 180 immediately upon confirmation of the PA. EXWW just knew I was going to go ballistic. She just knew I would tell her work and tell OMW. That I would try and control the situation.
I did nothing but take a huge step back. I slipped and pursued a few times. But the constant rejection pushed me to understand that all I can control is myself. So im doing just that.
All you have to do is truly let go. Truly drop all expectations of your MR having any chance.
Focus solely on yourself and doing what makes you happy. Boy do they get pissed when you drop the rope. But when you drop the rope, you also step off the emotional rollercoaster as well.
Its like being reborn. You will get there one day and think "why wasnt I doing this before?!?" "I am whats important so this is what I am doing to better me no matter what!!!"
M:16 T:21 H(me) 38 WW: 38 S11 D16 D19 Red Flags of A: March 2018 ILYBNILWY: August 4, 2018 Moved out of MBR: September 24, 2018 BD/Confirmation of A: October 31, 2018 D Filed: March 27, 2019
I'm beginning to understand what you're talking about, the whole stepping back and examining my faults and W's faults (and both have many).
It's hard to see your spouse with the rose colored glasses off. I'm starting to do it now, and it's an eye opener. It's easier (for me) to honestly look at myself and pick out faults to work on. I kinda enjoy that. To be honest, I feel more alive now than anytime I can remember. Truly is "Use the Time Wisely" moment, it IS a gift.
-SoloFlex
Navy Gulf War vet here too.
The Military mindset sometimes helps. It's been awhile but I'm bringing it back into service - discipline your mind. Train yourself to recognize when you are angry, sad, etc and live in it for the moment. Try to figure out where or what caused it, what the trigger was, and if there was a pattern from the past that repeated or reminded you of your emotion.Then let it go.
It takes practice to do this - dont beat yourself up if it doesnt work all the time. It doesnt always succeed even for me. But keep trying.
I have had very few bouts with anger in my R. Really. I have no anger toward my W for whatever reason. It boggles my mind and I've tried to figure out why. I think it is because she respected our original agreement when we first started seeing each other and that is to tell each other if either of us was feeling different.
Granted it was also very painful, and took half a year to drag it out of her but that was because I didnt understand what was going on and she was terrified to tell me, plus she still doesnt know why she feels the way she does. It was FUBAR but the situation was what it was and I cant change what happened.
Going forward, and this is just me - I have no anger because I realize I did and am doing everything I possibly can to make it work. There is peace of mind in that. I cant control what she does, or how she feels. Her emotions have overwhelmed her and it is VERY clear she cant even deal with that, let alone the R.
It's a constant struggle. Good days and bad ones.
Not sure why I wrote all that - hopefully some.of it helps.
Just being introspective this morning and journaling some thoughts and feelings. I am away at work for the week, and at times I miss S1, but it comes and goes. What I am thinking a lot about is social circles, my purpose, worldly things and experiences, being happy, being lonely, and living a balanced life with purpose.
I went and sought out a nice hilltop restaurant last night by myself, without my work colleagues, had a spectacular view, a nice meal, and some decent conversation about life, beer, and places with two of the bar tenders which were a younger man and woman.
I have always known this about myself since I was about 18, from all my prior relationships, that I date, I pursue relationships, and get involved with women because I enjoy the experiences of getting to know someone, and something new. Sometimes the dates are a good fit, sometimes they are not. That's ok though. I have always kept a small handful of friends, and they have wives, lives, and families, and are not much of a extended social circle. I need to expand that more with my interests, involving a good balance of men and women relationships and activities.
I think a lot of us sometimes wind up going through the motions, responsibilities of life, get bogged down, and more importantly, BORED. I guess we all want more experiences don't we? Every time I have lost a relationship, not only was it the relationship, but the experiences, and social circles as well. Women are fortunate and lucky going through a divorce, that they typically have more of an expanded social circle, and support to fill in the gaps of loneliness, purpose and time
Which leads me to my next thoughts. What this is about is feeling satisfied and having contention. I think people leave marriages because they are bored with their lives, because of their expectations they had of the other person didn't turn out to what they thought it would be. Or they feel like they're not living there full purpose in life, and they need to do so outside of the marriage, or break away from the marriage. Where my maturity kicks in, is you can have a ton of wonderful experiences in your life, live a rockstar studded awesome life, having different experiences with different people, doing different things, go traveling possibly abroad, and although it can shape you're life, I know from past experiences, which I have had many of, it can leave you everytime at a present place of feeling "NOW WHAT!?" "WHAT'S NEXT!" WHAT DO I WANT TO DO NEXT!? For the WW I'm sure it's "Who do I want to do next?" Lol....
So? I recognise this in my WAW, and in myself. That we are both looking for different experiences in life apart, to give ourselves, our purpose, and our lives meaning. Here is what I struggle with though. I know im mature enough to realize that these experiences, even though they may shape us, will always be passing, and that contention comes from being satisfied with oneself, being comfortable in our own skin, being secure in who we are and where we are, and having contention connection, and satisfaction in relating to people, and usually having a healthy source of such.
So? I recognise this in my WAW, and in myself. That we are both looking for different experiences in life apart, to give ourselves, our purpose, and our lives meaning. Here is what I struggle with though. I know im mature enough to realize that these experiences, even though they may shape us, will always be passing, and that contention comes from being satisfied with oneself, being comfortable in our own skin, being secure in who we are and where we are, and having contention connection, and satisfaction in relating to people, and usually having a healthy source of such.
Three random thoughts:
1. You are hitting upon MLC themes. Kids, career, the demands of life... it's easy to want to escape. It's easy to get bored and complacent. Even I'm bored in a lot of ways. But I see how life always changes, kids get older, and a strong connection with my W could helps us achieve a happy future. Some couples work through it together and come out stronger. They learn to connect, and support each other. They differentiate themselves and enjoy both individual and married life. They find ways to introduce excitement into a very routine life. They fight for it. Sometimes the demands of life are too overwhelming... one or both partners may not have the skills to work through it. They feel like they are drowning. Communication falters. Blame is assigned. The grass looks greener to one partner. They look at their spouse and start to resent them - resent the lack of growth, the lack of support. Some of it is fair, some is not. It doesn't matter. Divorced life looks like a better option. The spouse that wants to fight for the M has zero control. We come to DB initially with the promise of busting our D, and we stay because it's the only way we can manage this difficult transition in our lives without self-destructing.
2. Contentment with self is the goal. Many LBS (raising my hand meekly) are guilty of not working on this in the past. In that sense this process is a gift. I will be happier regardless of my M or future R's. The LBS has a narrative: "WAS is walking away from a good thing. WAS will not be happy in the future, they will always struggle to find their own happiness. I am changing, I have seen the light, I will be AMOAFWL (or AWOAFWL)." But it's too late, it took the pain of S or D to motivate the LBS to seek change. And it also may be erroneous to believe WAS is incapable of being happy on their own. Maybe we tell ourselves that to feel better.
3. In my case, it would be a lot easier to deal with if my WAS just said: "I feel like I will be happier outside this marriage than in it." It would be a gift for both of us. Instead, my theory is that in order to surmount the hurdle of guilt, my W has to build up a huge stockpile of anger and resentment. I have to have a Personality Disorder. I have to be a scary unpredictable person who can't handle divorce, who can't handle being a single dad. I have to be seen as a little boy who can't take care of himself. I'm going to screw her over financially. She needs to be secretive and sneaky about her plans for her own self-protection. Maybe I'm mind reading some of these things. It doesn't really matter. It is a coping mechanism for her. That way, WAS can live post-D guilt-free. But... I wonder if their future romantic R's will not end in similar fashion, if they haven't learned how to be content on their own. Maybe. Maybe she was capable of being happy herself, but I didn't learn how, and that broke our M. Somehow neither of us was content, and we failed to reconnect. Out of blind loyalty I assumed we could work through it. My W started thinking differently. I guess I understand. If you take kids out of the mix it makes perfect sense. I start thinking about these things, then I realize I need to let go and just focus on myself. The W I once knew is gone.
W just texted me. I have S1 all weekend. W invited me and S1 to beach tomorrow, despite me now pushing D. I was either going to have plans to go hiking with him, or beach. Whatdaya think? Take it or leave it? I really have no interest in spending time with her anymore, unless she's willing to recommit to M. I've made myself clear too many trust issues have been broken, she's not willing to work together on them, so Im done and pushing forward. Made myself clear several times in not playing family anymore, and we are doing everything my way with regards to seperating family affairs. Not accepting any more scraps or breadcrumbs. I'm about to tell her I have plans with S1... Sorry... You think I should give her a shot? Or keep doing what I'm doing until she finally caves? If she ever caves which I highly doubt. It's funny how she invited me to some occasions and not others.
Im an all or nothing kind of guy. That will never change. Either you give me your all (or attempt to try at least.) Or ill take nothing at all and walk away. Put in all your chips, or walk away from the table when it comes to personal R's. None of this $1 chips at a time breadcrumbs crap. I think the beach experience could be fun, but its funny?.. Now im the one that doesn't want to give her "false hope" I kmow I'm mind reading here, but I can only see 2 or 3 reasons for the invite, despite me pushing the D and insisting doing everything separated.
A.) She has no one else to go with, doesn't want to go alone, and conveniently wants to use me to fill that gap. If she had company, she probably wouldn't be asking me. If her only choice is to go alone, she will probably stay home.
B.) She thinks I have no plans/no social life/no friends, because I only have a few good friends and takes pity on me.
C.) She actually wants to hang with me and temp check. (Doubtful but don't GIve a $hit anyway.)
It's so hard not to take everything personal, especially when you're an all or nothing person.
The thing is, they don't have anything to give. Even if they want to (in a moment), they have nothing to give. It's all an act. They are in agony. They are emotionally bankrupt. It's hard not to have pity (and pity is wrong, we still need to see them as people and our counterparts = equals).
If I can get a breadcrumb, I will want to grab it secretly and treasure it. These people have nothing. What amount of effort does it take for them to put out a breadcrumb?
Really makes me think of the old bible story about the rich man giving all kinds of money to the temple and it meaning nothing. Yet the old widow gave her last coin and God thought it was the greatest offering as it was all she had. When will we see that in a moment a breadcrumb is all they had? If we could look in their heart and mind, I wonder if we would be surprised.
Here's a similar one that resembles that which is one of my favorites from Revelations. "But since you are like lukewarm water, neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of my mouth!"
W invited me and S1 to beach tomorrow, despite me now pushing D. I was either going to have plans to go hiking with him, or beach. Whatdaya think? Take it or leave it?
I think you already answered your own question:
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I really have no interest in spending time with her anymore, unless she's willing to recommit to M. I've made myself clear too many trust issues have been broken, she's not willing to work together on them, so Im done and pushing forward. Made myself clear several times in not playing family anymore, and we are doing everything my way with regards to seperating family affairs. Not accepting any more scraps or breadcrumbs. I'm about to tell her I have plans with S1... Sorry...
You don't want to spend time with her, you don't trust her, you're done and pushing forward. You're not going to play family anymore. Here's my question to you and I am being serious- if all of that is true, then why are you even asking the question? Are you really sure you are done?
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You think I should give her a shot? Or keep doing what I'm doing until she finally caves?
Do things for you and S, not to make her cave or get any other kind of reaction out of her.
That's a big fat NOPE! Told her "Thanks for the invite, but already made plans." I would rather lose her and divorce her, then compromise my principles for this current uncommitted whacked out wishy washy version of her. Life is too short to deal with a person in this state.
What's funny is I have been thinking about the social aspects and dynamics of the entire relationship. In the beginning when she was my GF, she was totally cool with hanging out with my family and friends, but slowly as time progressed into marriage, it became more about always hanging with her friends, constantly talking shop with them, spending all her time doing crafts on couples weekends, always excluding the husbands, it absolutely astonishes me when she BD'd me that she felt I was distant around her friends, did my own thing, etc... (Well yeah duh!!! If I feel like I can contribute something towards a conversation then I absolutely will jump into convo willingly. I am a very sociable and curious person. But I operate by my own rules. But if all you're going to do is talk shop all weekend, which I know nothing about and has nothing to do with me, and do nothing with friends than complain about husbands, then yeah, I'm going to go do my own thing.) Plus even with the husband's there's only so many conversations I can have about smoking weed playing video games and shooting guns. (The guns part I enjoy.) She knows all this but doesn't understand it in her own little view of the world. Also she always felt like she had to "check up" on me in social situations. Why I have no idea? Again her view of appeasement to other people in social situations?.... Me I'm like the mayor at barbeques, holidays, birthday parties, company parties, etc. I go off and talk to people and work the room or the event. I don't feel the need to always stay with one isolated group or clique. Also what she has exaggerated in her mind over the years is maybe once or twice a year I would miss a "her friends" event, because I actually had work to do around the house, and she would Twisted into I would always cancel every occasion. Probably just a bunch of more delusional crap in her mind to justify her leaving?
Coming back to my family and friends. When I wanted to even invite them over my own house, or go out, I would get the excuse of "oh im too tired" or "oh I need my down time" or " "Oh can you take them in the yard? I'd like my space to watch TV" But when its her family and friends, it's okay to invite them over without even telling me, but I still entertain them. But it's mine? I have to do it on my own without her. Nothing but double standard delusional, but polite and accomdating presentation she puts on, still appearing as a two face phony IMO, who constantly accuses me of all the same things she's guilty of. Talk about projection?
Now I'm starting to GAL more, get in contact with old friends and hang with family more. ( I actually might be starting up a band with an old co-worker, where Im the lead singer.) All of sudden she wants to invite me to some places but not to others when it suits her needs. I'm thinking all of her friends and family have plans this weekend, so she's using me as a backup. But I'm the one she doesn't trust? I'm the one she doesn't feel safe with? I'm the one who is emotionally abusive? I'm the one she's leaving for a "better life". But she wants to hang with me when it conveniently suits her.
Whatever...She has her perceptions and I have mine, and mine are all that matters to me now. It doesn't matter anyway because I'm divorcing her. I'm totally fine with it. If someone wants out? Ill help them back their bags..For someone that wants to sell my house out from under me, separate, divide the family, etc... Life is too short to be hemming and hawing over this kind of Mickey Mouse $hit for someone that promise a Lifetime but doesn't want to work at things. It amazes me how people can appear to be so normal and level-headed, but yet crazy, and then accuse you of the one who's crazy because your ideals aren't the same as theirs anymore.
Soloflex I thought good and hard about what you said about them being emotionally bankrupt. I do see it for what it is, there are some givers out there like my wife. Keep giving and giving and giving and when they don't get what they expect in return they stop giving because they're fed up. You're absolutely right that they are emotionally bankrupt and we should try not to pity them but sympathize with it. However I will sympathize with it from my own thoughts in my own personal space in my own time from a distance. Me I don't give to get. I give without expectations, and I know that my supply of giving is limitless and overflowing and will always be there and plentiful. My authentic self will always be my authentic self. If someone doesn't appreciate it, then I have no control over that. But I do get what some are saying around here in certain circumstances about NGS. If it's not within the boundaries of a healthy relationship then yes there needs to be some type of fair exchange to gain back the respect that you deserve.
Hey AS. Actually yes I really did answer my own question and yes I really am done. I'm not doing anything for a reaction from her. I'm doing what I want when I want and how I want with S1 because I want to. The only reason why I'm bringing all this to everyone's attention here, is because even though I'm confident in my decisions, it's always nice to have a second third or fourth pair of eyes of those who've gone through this with experience. It's always easier for someone else to advise someone from the outside looking in rather than the inside looking out. we both know that she is only throwing me breadcrumbs to keep me on the hook. we both know that if I was to even spend time with her and the baby this weekend it wouldn't mean anything or make a difference or change her mind.
What I'm trying to say here is in the beginning she entered my world and my frame and over the years I've gone into her world and her frame. I'm not doing it anymore I'm rebuilding my social networks and my life without her. I'm not saying she would have to meet all my terms and conditions I wouldn't expect her to, BUT... I would have to see a very big behavioral change on her part and a extremely strong desire to recommit to work on things otherwise I am out I am shutting that door, I am checked out and I'm going to follow through with it all the way to the end 100%. If she wants to have a change of heart at the eleventh hour to recommit 100% to work on things, not sell the house, go to counseling, not have a separate parenting schedule, and keep the family intact, and has any desire to Love Me Again then that's up to her. I won't settle for anything less than that. I would rather be alone, on my own terms, living my own life, doing my own thing. I completely let go of who she was. Who this version of the current person is I have no desire to be with. I'm not going to love someone who doesn't love me back and I won't accept table scraps to see if that person I once knew is still there? Nothing less than full committed to reconciliation, and that's only a starting point for me, as we all know piecing is even more work. It honestly amazes me that there are people on here that are willing to hang around for W W's and my situation is far less traumatic than theirs, and now I'm willing to walk away over far less. Even if she ever did fully commit to reconciliation I'm still not sure if I could trust her because if she could do this once she holds the potential to do it again. I don't ever want that on my conscience. It would take some serious time space and rebuilding of trust established at kind of a connection again in Trust, and I understand the door swings both ways with her on that too.
Had another rage moment this weekend, but kept it under control. Will update later. Watched Swingers for the first time last night, Great movie. I didn't know so many big names were in it. Definitely spoke the message and vibe I needed to hear with all the guys going through this crap. We rise, we fall, we rise again. Bottom line is eventually we will follow our own path, and hopefully come across someone who gets us and understands us. Not like our WAW'S... I say let em walk. Don't give them a second thought, even if they claim that for years, they were doing all the work, they obviously didn't communicate things properly, or had proper coping mechanisms for both parties to come to a peaceable resolve. I am at a point where the only thing me and the STBXW agree on is that we don't agree or understand anything about each others perceptions and perspectives, and even if we did, it doesn't change anything. I say let them walk. Ill find someone someday who eventually gets me. Attributes, flaws and all. My time is precious.
Guys I'm really having a hard time with my rage. Four things causing it. One being compulsive thinking about entire R, looking for Clues and ques and words against actions with W throughout M. Been reading a bit of Rollo Tomassi and Esther Perle lately. Kind of getting red pilled. The more I learn realizing the more I understand and more clarity I have how women just are. I'm here I'm really angry that I cannot have much of a social life. Plus every time I come home from where I am traveling from, there's always more stuff being done around the house by her more stop being boxed up. Every time I come home on Friday she always remind me that she's making plans. It f@$!ing pisses me off to no end when she goes out. Most of the time it doesn't bother me and I don't let it show and usually I know it's with girlfriends without her having to tell me. But she's real sneaky about it doesn't say where she's going or what she's doing. There is one girl friend who is getting married who she's been spending a bit of time with along with my brother's ex-girlfriend who is recently divorced. These two friends of hers have no connection with one another. I don't know if this is my paranoia. I can't put my proof or finger on it and I know I need to let this go. But as soon as one of her girlfriends started her bridal party plans with the bridesmaid stuff that my W was involved with, the very first bridal party Gathering I noticed something was off with her back in August and then after in January or February when she start separating everything. The first bridal party event she went to that is when the Rings came off I also noticed she started wearing lipstick doing her nails wearing different perfumes and start trimming her nether regions. I again I don't know for sure but I think there's something going on there. I just want to know if my suspicions and instincts and intuition is right? There are definitely enablers there
I've been trying my hand at online dating but no luck yet and it seems like the more profiles I brows through the more all the women sound the same... Jaded, or flaky, or just not for me.
I hate the fact that I can't have a social life because of custody schedule. I hate the fact that I have to always go back to that house to see her because of my son. I hate the fact that I have to box up all my $hit still, find a storage locker, eventually start looking for a new home or apt. I'm so f@$ing angry with her. I'm angry that the past means absolutely nothing to her. I'm angry she can't see what a hard-working dedicated good person I am despite me being a bit emotional. Guys I've tried being present and it was working couple of months ago for a couple of weeks. I feel like I have no time to myself and I'm forced to go back to a place in the person that I don't want to be, until the house sells. It's not even on the market yet. I'm finding only small tidbits of temporary joy. Is compulsive thoughts on trying to figure out everything that went wrong and how and why does give me insight and their mistake I want to learn from this I don't make them again in the future. But going down that road it just makes me more angry the more I learn. Not entirely at myself up because women just do $hit that's f@$!ed up by their own nature. I've seen it throughout my five relationships. Them going from you being the best thing since sliced bread from them nagging you or them trying to change you for them not being happy or satisfied with what you bring to the table, well they bring nothing but their good charm and looks. People are telling me Chase Excellence not women and their right. A man goes in a relationship hoping things will never change, a woman goes in a relationship hoping that things change and grow all the time and if you are not growing at the same Pace as them for changing with them, or satisfying them then you are beta. I do understand that they are reactive freetress and they're only reacting to who I am. Even though there are some things I've gotten better at over the years of other things within my frustration tolerance I need to work on with myself. I will never let my guard down or marry again knowing what I know.
I really hate being here in this place. I wish I could just fast forward to a new apartment A New Life in a new me, where the focus is nothing but myself and my S1. My feelings of betrayal keep coming up, no matter who I vent to, no matter how many times it temporarily gets displaced with GAL. No matter how many councelors I talk to. I wish I could be happy alone and be happy without a woman in my life. But I don't know if I can it's just the way I'm wired. I've been pursuing girls and woman since I was 4 years old. I hate being single. I hated being single since I was 16.. I actually feel like Mikey from the movie Swingers, but I definitely don't come across that desperate. I know I'm responsible for my own happiness and that no one else could ever provide that to me nor should they. I just either want an intact family with son and W, or I want to restart my own life and be where I want to be and do what I want to do, and have a successful thriving time doing it.
Maybe once I start up a band with my co-worker and I start doing what I love, maybe my focus will change in time?
IHC, hang in there. Find productive outlets for that rage and anger. You mentioned in someone else's thread that you have guns. Get out to the range. That was my outlet. I felt best when I was in that lane with a high-powered weapon putting holes in paper.
M(53), W(54),D(19) M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017 Ring and Piecing since March 2018
Dude I am starting to get concerned about your well being. Didn't you just file for Divorce?
Originally Posted by IHCLACS
Guys I'm really having a hard time with my rage. Four things causing it. One being compulsive thinking about entire R, looking for Clues and ques and words against actions with W throughout
Complete waste of time.
Originally Posted by IHCLACS
The more I learn realizing the more I understand and more clarity I have how women just are.
I have mentioned this to you in the past. I am sure these derogatory remarks towards women are part of your problem.
Originally Posted by IHCLACS
I'm here I'm really angry that I cannot have much of a social life.
Why can't you? You spend hours posting on this website.
Originally Posted by IHCLACS
It f@$!ing pisses me off to no end when she goes out. Most of the time it doesn't bother me and I don't let it show and usually I know it's with girlfriends without her having to tell me.
This statement sounds a little crazy right?
Originally Posted by IHCLACS
But she's real sneaky about it doesn't say where she's going or what she's doing. There is one girl friend who is getting married who she's been spending a bit of time with along with my brother's ex-girlfriend who is recently divorced. These two friends of hers have no connection with one another. I don't know if this is my paranoia. I can't put my proof or finger on it and I know I need to let this go. But as soon as one of her girlfriends started her bridal party plans with the bridesmaid stuff that my W was involved with, the very first bridal party Gathering I noticed something was off with her back in August and then after in January or February when she start separating everything. The first bridal party event she went to that is when the Rings came off I also noticed she started wearing lipstick doing her nails wearing different perfumes and start trimming her nether regions. I again I don't know for sure but I think there's something going on there. I just want to know if my suspicions and instincts and intuition is right?
Number 1 this isn't your business anymore. Number 2 please read below.
Originally Posted by IHCLACS
I've been trying my hand at online dating but no luck yet and it seems like the more profiles I brows through the more all the women sound the same... Jaded, or flaky, or just not for me.
Originally Posted by IHCLACS
I hate the fact that I can't have a social life because of custody schedule.
Excuses
Originally Posted by IHCLACS
Not entirely at myself up because women just do $hit that's f@$!ed up by their own nature.
derogatory
Originally Posted by IHCLACS
Them going from you being the best thing since sliced bread from them nagging you or them trying to change you for them not being happy or satisfied with what you bring to the table, well they bring nothing but their good charm and looks.
So your saying the only thing a woman brings to the table is her charm and looks? Then you spend hours at a time wondering what went wrong????
Originally Posted by IHCLACS
People are telling me Chase Excellence not women and their right.
These are some smart people.
Originally Posted by IHCLACS
A man goes in a relationship hoping things will never change, a woman goes in a relationship hoping that things change and grow all the time and if you are not growing at the same Pace as them for changing with them, or satisfying them then you are beta.
Or maybe you decide your not meant for one another and move on.
Originally Posted by IHCLACS
I wish I could be happy alone and be happy without a woman in my life.
Until you are able to accomplish this you will continue to struggle.
Yeah Steve I haven't been to the range in a year. I was actually doing the militia, getting plenty of range time and training prior to BD. W who is a liberal centrist. Anti conservative, didn't like that I was putting some of my focus into that, and it didn't make her feel safe. She thinks I'm a right-wing extremist which is further from the truth she just never gave them a chance even though we do a lot did a lot of good for the community and emergency eram and stuff like that, help out police, fbi, disaster clean up community outreach etc. She believes everything through the media about them being right-wing extremist. Her father was a vietnam marine but her family mostly Democrats. My wife actually like the idea of socialism. My father was also a marine but before Vietnam era he passed away several years ago. I was raised Democrats with the Unions in my family, but I turned conservative in 2010 and started getting very politically active. Another division between us because this country is so divided today, start playing a role in dividing our marriage. Me and my WAW, are like Ronald Reagan and Jane Seymour.
I guess one of my issues what's really is driving my rage at the thought of a blended family in the future. I don't want that for my son but I have no choice. She wants to raise him one way and I want to raise him another. Being as conservative as I have become I just don't believe in splitting up the family.
I think I think it's overdue for me to get together with my shooting buddies. I actually enjoy cleaning my guns more than I do shooting them, I haven't even looked at them since December. Another thing that pisses me off about W. I purchased her a pistol about 3 years ago. Was asking for 3 years to take her to the range to get a proficient on it for self-defense and home purposes. she never took an active interest and never wanted to go with me. Now all of a sudden she's expressing interest in going to the range with my younger brother's ex-girlfriend who is divorced.
I don't know who this person is anymore or who I thought she was. I know all the warning signs red flags Mental Health depression mlc and daddy issues were there, but yet she projects all those issues onto me. I wish sometimes I wasn't as an emotional person as I am. When I'm happy people know about it when I'm angry people know about it when I'm consumed people know about it and when I'm sad people know about it. It's my thoughts that are driving the emotions more than the circumstances. More like the thoughts of the circumstances driving the emotions. Therapy helps, I just feel like that I'm very unique and that there really isn't anyone out there for me so I can relate sometimes. At least not in an intimate way without letting your guard down. The reason why I have abandonment issues is because I've had four girlfriends and a wife leave me. Talk about a self-fulfilling prophecy. If they have weaknesses it's okay but if a man has a one weakness, just forget it they're done there is no long-term relationship. They will grind them down slowly over time in a marriage. If they are too Alpha then they're considered emotionally abusive, controling, manipulative, etc, If they are too Beta then they are considered a doormat. I know I shouldn't be discussing politics on here because there are a lot of good respectful people on both sides of the aisle and I understand that. I can be friends with people and agree to disagree politely. but it is in my most humble opinion that feminism has destroyed this country and the women in with their ideals. I do believe a woman should have her independence and they should have equalism in the workplace. What is far as relationships go a man and a woman will never be equal because they think differently they steal differently they do things differently, and they are built much differently. There are too many women running around today that have too much expectations of men that they themselves are unwilling to fulfil for themselves. There has to be a balance within the family. Steve I'm sure you know the divorce rates are initiated by 70% of women because they aren't happy for whatever reason whether it be midlife crisis depression boredom monkey branching, financial reasons, division of labor reasons comparing with the Joneses. Dissatisfaction and etcetera. in my opinion the only time a woman should have the right to release to leave a marriage as in the case of abuse and neglect, but they can turn their perception of their husband not paying enough attention to them as neglect, and their husband putting their foot down on a serious matter as emotional abuse. The divorce course need to change. other than having children there is no benefit to a man getting married in today's society. Women have too many choices today actually it's more than women it's everyone. I want to make marriage holy again and not legal. I know I'm coming off as a misogynist, but I'm not. I'm really starting to believe that women love opportunistically and men do actually love idealistically . Women don't respect men today, and men don't respect women. The division and understanding of the opposite sexes is just as divided as the political arena. Not all but most of the women identify with identity politics, emotion and cause. Not all but most men identify with logical reasoning and consequence.
I'm sorry if I'm renting but I had to get off my chest and thank you all for listening. I'm just really angry and sad at the current state of affairs in our country and the current state of affairs between men and women and the current state of affairs in my marriage, clearly knowing that there is something wrong in Western culture, and there is little that we can do about it it's just the way it is. It almost leaves me with a feeling of hopelessness that I will probably be alone as far as having an intimate partner for good amount of time of my life, because of the way I believe and think. Maybe I need to move to a different part of the country I don't know?
guess one of my issues what's really is driving my rage at the thought of a blended family in the future. I don't want that for my son but I have no choice. She wants to raise him one way and I want to raise him another. Being as conservative as I have become I just don't believe in splitting up the family.
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Maybe I need to move to a different part of the country I don't know?
So in one thought you don't want to split your family up, in the next you are talking about moving hundreds of miles away?
IHC I know you are struggling. And I think your first paragraph gave me a good idea why. You gave up something you love for your W? I assume once BD hit you gave up the range and militia to try to get her back? Is this your pattern? Have you been DBing with one eye on her to see her reaction? Did you file for D hoping that would wake her up?
One of the things we coach posters on is to strive to do NOTHING for her benefit. If you do, it will backfire and not result in what you think it should or hope it would. And I think this is where a lot of your issues are stemming from. You have tried to manipulate and control through your entire sitch, and then get frustrated when it doesn't work the way you think it should. Frustration breeds anger. Anger breeds rage. Thus here we are.
Your last line in your earlier post nailed it. You HAVE to learn to be happy by yourself. Otherwise you will never be happy with someone, and they certainly won't be happy with you. I think you are in IC, right? If not, get in it. If you are, then consider changing to another C.
IHC you have a chance here to improve and move forward. Don't let that chance go by. Don't look back in 10, 15, 20 years from now with regrets that you didn't take this opportunity to learn and grow!
LH hit you with a lot of truth bombs. Consider them very carefully.
M(53), W(54),D(19) M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017 Ring and Piecing since March 2018
No LH I haven't filed yet. Obviously and unfortunately my thoughts of my emotions are still ruling me. I go back and forth with it from week to week. I think some of my words are being misconstrued t online cuz I'm not presenting it in person in the right context. but you're right some of my statements do sound derogatory and contradicting and crazy. You're right her business isn't my business anymore and I know that I make sure of that. Doesn't mean I don't have feelings about it. This is about me letting go of control. This is about me letting go of the past. This is about me being in limbo and developing my future and not having the patience, or the stability make that happen. I guess I have all this internal conflict because a part of me knows that I need to move forward and a part of me still has to let go of the past. Just when I thought I let it go for a few weeks of creeps back in. I know the compulsive thinking is a waste of time what's my way of reminding myself what I need to learn, and then the emotions come up from it as a result.
Let me ask you this question LH 19? If people aren't meant for 1 another which does happen in marriages and the reason why people get divorced? Then why is it that there was enough attraction there in the beginning to get married in the first place? Why did that some marriages make it between 7 years and 25 years before divorce? I mean I understand people grow apart for different reasons? Whether it be incompatibility or or someone going through depression or a midlife crisis, cheating WW, whatever? Pick your one of a thousand reasons. Then what the hell is the point of the institution of marriage and what the hell is the point of having marriage vows? Marriage comes in many forms today in our Western Society some deem it as holy others deem it as legal some deem as emotional, some considerate societal. Marriage means many different things for many people. I think the legal aspects should be considerably revampt in our Western culture. You can say what you want about my thoughts but a man in America going through a divorce has too much to lose and a woman has too much to gain,. there is an imbalance there. It does happen but very seldom do you see men having full custody of their children and receiving child support and alimony. If a woman walks away from a marriage that's legally binding she shouldn't receive anything, unless there is a history and proof of abuse. If a man walks away from a marriage or has a documented history of abuse and neglect that should be obligatory for him to pay child support and alimony. I would love to see what happened if we eliminated the family courts altogether and just put this into a civil court, where proper restitution and punitive damages can equally go both ways, man or woman.
as far as me taking hours at a time to not only event on here but help out other people going through this I really do empathise with them. I know I'm in the middle of my situation and I can barely help myself but I want to help them and it feels good not being alone, that we all can share our experiences and learn from them. We are all here for three reasons. to save ourselves, to gain knowledge and learn from our mistakes and grow, and to potentially save our marriages.
I just turned my own personal posts into venting sessions because I have no one else to talk to about this. I mean I can talk to my family about it, but the thoughts and emotions build up and I just have to do something with him so I Journal them on here. Right wrong or indifferent. some days are better than others until I get all the way through the other side just like everybody else on here.
et me ask you this question LH 19? If people aren't meant for 1 another which does happen in marriages and the reason why people get divorced? Then why is it that there was enough attraction there in the beginning to get married in the first place? Why did that some marriages make it between 7 years and 25 years before divorce?
This is a very good question. And I can sum it up in one word:
SELFISHNESS
People in western society are way too selfish. And so they get into a marriage and instead of being committed they are constantly assessing whether or not it is working for them or not. Look at the vows people take, and then how they behave afterword. If people looked at it as I am committing to this person, hell or high-water, for LIFE, then maybe marriage in western society could turn around.
It certainly isn't about compatibility. Why do I say that? Because in societies where arranged marriages are the norm, those societies have some of the lowest divorce rates in the world!
Until western society because less selfish, then the divorce rate will continue to climb.
IHC, can I ask a personal question? Did you and your STBxW go through premarital counseling?
M(53), W(54),D(19) M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017 Ring and Piecing since March 2018
Guys I'm really having a hard time with my rage. Four things causing it. One being compulsive thinking about entire R, looking for Clues and ques and words against actions with W throughout M.
First of all, it's OK to be angry. Anger is an emotion, it's no "better" or "worse" than any other emotion, it's one of many emotions we all experience throughout a year, month, week and sometimes even day. But do try to find reasonable ways to process that anger. Boxing or the shooting range or the gym or sports or something. Hell I remember riding my motorcycle to a remote spot and just getting off and screaming my head off until I was hoarse and dizzy.
Second, let me remind you of what you just said recently:
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I really have no interest in spending time with her anymore, unless she's willing to recommit to M. I've made myself clear too many trust issues have been broken, she's not willing to work together on them, so Im done and pushing forward.
If you are that done with her, then how is it she has so much power over your state of mind? Do what you said you are doing- BE DONE AND PUSH FORWARD.
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I'm really angry that I cannot have much of a social life.
Then make one. If she can't watch the kids then hire a sitter.
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Every time I come home on Friday she always remind me that she's making plans. It f@$!ing pisses me off to no end when she goes out.
Hire a sitter and go out yourself.
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I also noticed she started wearing lipstick doing her nails wearing different perfumes and start trimming her nether regions. I again I don't know for sure but I think there's something going on there. I just want to know if my suspicions and instincts and intuition is right?
Your suspicions of what, an affair? You want nothing to do with her and you are perusing dating sites, why do you care what she's doing.
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I hate the fact that I have to box up all my $hit still, find a storage locker, eventually start looking for a new home or apt.
Well it's an inconvenience, no question about that. But here's the deal. You were way too codependent and whose fault is that? I went through this soul-searching during that same period of anger and frustration that you are going through and determined I wasn't mad at W, I was mad at MYSELF. At the end of the day I had grown too dependent on her, relied too much on her, based too many plans on a future with her. I RELINQUISHED RESPONSIBILITY FOR MY LIFE TO SOMEONE ELSE!!!! Once I came to that realization, I came to another one- I was the one that had to right that wrong. And I did. It took years of hard work and discipline but I finally adjusted to being completely independent. The buck stops here, I am solely responsible for my happiness, my health, my well-being, my groceries, my bills, my taxes, my mortgage. This is what we should all strive for. Then we may "want" someone to join us in this ride called life, but we don't "need" them. And there is a big difference there.
So be angry, that's fine. But turn it into a new phase of personal productivity. Grow. Prosper.
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I just either want an intact family with son and W, or I want to restart my own life and be where I want to be and do what I want to do, and have a successful thriving time doing it.
You´re getting great advice here man, use your time wisely. Vent here if you need to vent but then regain composure and keep moving forward. You need to get into amoafwl, not for her but for yourself.
Be strong there IHC.
WW H(me): 53 W: 48 T: 27 M: 22 S: 18 Piecing since 03/2016 Saw the light in the storm
Let me ask you this question LH 19? If people aren't meant for 1 another which does happen in marriages and the reason why people get divorced? Then why is it that there was enough attraction there in the beginning to get married in the first place? Why did that some marriages make it between 7 years and 25 years before divorce?
Because people change IH. What you are looking for in a partner when your 20 is not necessarily what you want when your 40 or 50. People don't always live up to there end of the bargain. People who did not come from happy healthy families have no idea what it takes to have a healthy relationship. I believe that in marriage there are 50 percent of people get divorced 47 percent of people who aren't necessarily happy but are not miserable enough or too scared to file for divorce and 3% who are truly in love with one another. We just happen to be in the 50% category. But at least there is hope to make it to the 3% category. I have many friends in the 47% category that have no hope. Why do you want to be with someone who doesn't want to be with you? As far as the institution of marriage, I think it is out dated. It worked when you use to live to be 30-35. Now that's too long to be with one person. People change, feelings change. IMO marriage should be set up based on 5 year contracts. You can choose to renew or terminate every five years. I most likely will never marry again.
As far as venting, I get you use the board to do that and at times that is ok. Yours just has a different feel to it and is very unproductive.
Yes we did pre marital counciling and ironically the preacher that married us was divorce. We watch those movies on fireproof and read all the books about marriage and our first year things were good. We watch fireproof the first week we were married. I would never dare yell at her the way, Kirk Cameron did in the movie initially. but I am known to raise my voice a lot and I do have a bit of a temper. She has a tendency to exaggerate and project a lot. Our Communication patterns suck. We literally passed right over each other. The communication was good for the first two or three years though.
There's a lot of idealistic and division of labor trust issues between us being married for almost 10 years. I know I'm wrong for telling the W this, but I'm obviously not one to hold in my feelings. I'm very upfront honest and vocal. Almost too much. I alluded to the wife being selfish for doing what she's doing. I understand why she's being selfish because she was such a people pleaser for so many years within her family from a little girl all the way through her marriage that she never put herself first, and now it's all about putting herself her needs her wants her desires and her future first. Again I understand it but that doesn't mean I agree with it. She thinks her happiness is going to come from pursuing all these wild and crazy purposes and adventures and trips and stuff and Reinventing herself living with single mom life pursuing all the things she may or may not have wanted to in the past. she thinks that as long as she is happy she will be a good role model for our son. There's definitely depression there on her end, she hides it very well but I can see it. She has weight issues and daddy issues. her father is a good man but he currently has dementia apparently he was emotionally unavailable to her as a child. according to her and her counselor she uncovered that because her father had a lot of anxieties deal with the cause of Vietnam, he would go to the liquor store every day in and put down a six-pack in her childhood. And she would get candy and sweets and whatnot she is an emotional eater. he is a good man and he was a good provider but I don't think he had an intimate relationship with his daughter or any of his children. I've seen her slim down three times in my life but she never remains consistent with it. my wife is very well composed and even tempered. you would never think that she would have any emotional issues. very nice girl but if you ever got to know her over the long haul you would see she was a people pleaser too accommodating not authentic enough, and ever slightly phony.
me on the other hand I have my issues as well as being emotional person being loud and boisterous in a good and a bad way. But not always. I can definitely say that my father was verbally abusive. my father was a strong and Driven Man. Somehow his Tendencies of come out in me within my marriage. my mother was the empathetic one and she raised us emotionally. so I have a healthy balance of both I can be sweet kind and compassionate but yet I can be really downright irritable frustrated and nasty sometimes. my mother is practically a saint completely sacrificial and a bit naive to her the Loyalty of her family to the point where my brothers who currently live with her do abuse her and her home to an extent. it was always funny watching my parents fight all throughout the years. My father completely dominated her. Was insecure and controlling. what was funny was in her fifties she started fighting back. I remember one or two instances where mug started flying in the kitchen with my mother and my father knew to back off. I watched them go through all the stages of life. Love, co dependency, mild verbal abuse, distance pursuit jealousy you name it. it's weird my household was a little bit dysfunctional growing up but we always had deep and philosophical meaningful conversations about lice me always put our emotions out there we never avoid conflict within the family. my wife's family is somewhat similar but different but they avoid conflict. so maybe the both of us are regressing back to our childhood learned behaviors from our parents now that we have a son of own, find the values and principles are a little bit different and a just not compatible I don't know that's just my psychological opinion. I would be lying myself if I didn't say I had some selfish needs. I'm a very affectionate and sexual person but I'm also emotional too. I've tried for 7 months of reconcile with wife that's just not happening, as she continues to pack up her stuff and sell the house piece by piece, with no regards to my well-being or the marriage, for keeping the family intact for the sake of our son. My trust in her goes down and down more everyday. I figure it this way if she could do it once she could do it again. That's the part of me that wants to push through the divorce. on the other hand I am having a hard time letting her go completely. some weeks I think I have let her go another week that comes right back up again feelings from the past. she doesn't see a future with me and she doesn't care about the past for history and as we know dear they rewrite history to everything being absolute negatives.
I don't think I could ever demonstrate to her any incentives of staying unless we were physically separated for some time. We can't agree on anything with are different perceptions, so basically like what the hell is the point I might as well try and focus on me have fun get out and do my thing try to stay sane maybe date a little bit? There's nothing to salvage my marriage is dead. Basically as I told Wolfman we are all,just looking for small improvements, a social life, and temporary filler to get us through our siches.
I know my Rants and ravings ramblings and bit@hing is unproductive. I really appreciate everyone's input and everyone listening, your empathy, and I know your time is valuable and thank you. I have to talk about these things and literally get them off my chest otherwise if I keep it in for too long I will start to have shortness of breath and mild panic attacks. Verbally speaking into my phone and saying all this helps me feel better. Reaching out and responding to someone else on here helps me feel better. I'm much better well I guess we all are much better from the outside looking in on people's situations. I'm really great at giving advice to people especially in relationships but it's funny I can't manage my own. As far as the inconsistencies that everyone points out here you're all you're all right. I don't know if I'll ever be able to change that about me, until I can put down my feelings and emotions about someone or something. I'm very emotional and passionate about who I am and what I do, what I think about and what I believe in. But it's not healthy for me to keep dwelling on something or someone that doesn't no longer serve me, and I know it but I can't help it sometimes I just have to let it run its course, recover and keep pushing forward
IH I feel your pain. I know you have commented on my thread a lot so I will comment on yours. I agree that talking on here really helps. Sometimes we have to just let those feelings out and when we do we feel better. IH my w is doing the same thing, it’s all about her, that she has to pursue the things that make her happy. That if she is happy the kids will be happy. I say I they can pursue things that make them “happy” then we should do that too. If we are “happy” or at least appear that way to them, that is very attractive. When I take the focus off my situation and focus on myself I feel better. People see it too, some people will say you look good today. I know they mean happy. You said you have a lot of anger at times, do you belong to a gym? It helps me a lot. Get that frustration out.
M:42 XW:41 T:19 M: 15 D:13 S:10 BD: 8/10/18 Moved out: 8/18 Moved in: 9/18/18 Moved out: 4/22/19 D papers signed 11/4/19 D final 3/18/20
Anyone here kmow of any books on the psychology and tactics, handling, setting boundaries, etc whether aware or unaware, revolving around the dynamics of manipulation, gas lighting, shaming, narcissism, projection, etc within the dynamics of relationships and marriage between the sexes? I just had a major epiphany.
Well here it comes. Both BIL's are coming over this weekend to attempt to tackle the loose ends of my unfinished projects while I have the whole weekend with S1 with nowhere to go or take him for the entire weekend.I will make the materials available to W. I hope to get an exact timeframe they will be here at the house, so I won't be here. This [censored]. I have nowhere else to run with S1 while they are here. I hope to find some day activities, but ultimately he has to sleep here. What really pisses me off, is they will be utilizing all the stuff I have purchased, and possibly tools too. Talk about an interference of a marriage. But I get it.They are helping their sister. Since she fired me as her H, and is selling the house. I have absolutely no intention of touching these things, or getting involved. I wish she would have done this crap on a weekend where I didn't have S1
Yeah stop being so fuching prickly. Your brother in laws are coming over to do what you didn’t get done and you’re going to benefit from it with the sale of the house.
The saying around here is to keep the road home paved smoothly and right now you are putting a million potholes in them.
I get that your hurt, I really do, I have been there. But being bitter and vengeful is not the answer. One minute you say your done and moving on and then the next minute your trying to block every move she makes.
I can tell you are a really smart dude but until you adjust your attitude, I am afraid you are going to have this happen to you again and again in the future.
IH, that is a huge 2x4 from LH, and one that you should pay heed too. Anger and bitterness is no way to go through life. I think you said you are in IC, how is that going? Because I am not seeing any results. Do not settle for an inferior IC, if the one you have isn't working then find another. ICs are like everything else, the quality varies. Shop around like you would for a car.
Cherish this weekend. S1 will only be 1 once. My D is going to be 16 later this month, and I would give my left ear to go back and spend more time with her at 1, and every age in between. They grow up fast, so don't look at this as "I have a free weekend with S1 with nothing to do", and look at it is "awesome!, I get a free weekend with S1 with lots of one-on-one time!"
M(53), W(54),D(19) M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017 Ring and Piecing since March 2018
LH19 What gives you the impression from my post that I am bitter and vengeful and "blocking" every move my W makes? Ok yeah you have a point. I will be benefiting from sale of home. As far as what most aren't seeing here from what I haven't been posting is the subtle manipulation. Last weekend W invited me out to BIL and her nieces rec event on her weekend with S1. Now I see why. She probably wanted to see if BIL could speak with me in arranging cooperation and persuasion into us doing the projects together, and having me watching S1 on her time last weekend. Otherwise it probably would have been crickets hearing anything from her. It's gotten to the point where the only time I hear from her through text message or phone call is when she wants or needs something. And only for that reason so I had to put a stop to it.
Steve Im actually looking forward to spending time with S1 this weekend since its Father's Day. I just have to plan out events to keep us both out of the house and active until BIL's leave. Don't get me wrong, me and BIL's get along just fine. I just don't want to be present and get roped into doing something W wants me to do for her own benefit and gain. I don't want to sell the house I don't want to get divorce I don't want my marriage to fail. I don't want to split the family. But if she is going to keep pushing her narrative and agenda. Then I sure as hell am not going to help it along. She can figure it out on her own. So yes I am done. Im staying more mentally and emotionally sane that way, and I'm just fine with my decision. Not being punitive. Just looking for advice to spend time out of the house until I can return to it. Maybe I'll take him to a car show or two? He likes the hot rods.
I'm just looking for advice on how to handle time with S1 out of the house since I can only do so much with him, and have so many places to go. As far as the road paved home and "the million potholes" If W considers me not finishing some of the small stuff around the house, as a big intentional FU to her, well I consider her selling the house an even bigger one to me. We have had this discussion time and time again that it was never intentional of me. It was just due to work, travelling, and placating to all of her social affairs on a whim when we were on good terms, instead of getting stuff done as I intended to. Admittingly I do have my share of excuses as well, valid, but still excuses.
Now I know I should have finished these things, the split custody and work has added more burden to it. (Yeah I know excuses excuses.) But really? If your SO was selling your home without your approval because of THEIR PERSONAL DEBT THAT THEY INCURRED IN THE MARRIAGE, that they wanted out of the M, and you couldn't afford to keep the M home on your own income and refinance, and you're credit was poor because of W pulling multiple loans to keep things afloat BECAUSE OF THEIR DEBTS, and still jointly being able to swing the mortgage. Would you have any incentive other than sale profit to help them get closer to their goal of leaving and selling?
Not being vengeful at all, but yeah im a little bitter. Who wouldn't be in any of our circumstances? Im not blocking any moves she makes whatsoever. I'm just not going to help her along with it.That's all. What I can't seem to figure out is everyone around here advocates the whole " You fired me as your H." mantra. They want to leave, Let them figure it out ideology. But then when I do, I'm the one who gets backlash for it.
I could use a bit of an attitude adjustment throughout the whole situation. I'm not being punitive or vengeful about it let's make that clear. I am glad however you pointed out another way of looking at it as far as BIL's helping W with projects and sale so both can benefit. I know what can feel like my brother-in-law's are pissing in my own territory, and I need to put those personal feelings aside. I know their true intentions on that cuz they're good guys just helping their sister. I guess I'm just angry at myself for not finishing these things in the first place, and now someone else is coming in to help with it. It's difficult not to be a little resentful about it.
I know the sale if the M home is inevitable, and most likely D is inevitable, and I've accepted that, and am preparing for such. I just have no desire to help it along.
Steve85. Its fairly easy to get defensive in these situations, I'm trying to work on it, getting much better externally presenting myself while handling it, but internally yeah the hurt is still there. Not over W but over circumstanses if that makes any sense. I honestly don't feel much of anything for W anymore. I've been too hurt to care anymore. Its just neutral, carry on with my day, business as usual. The less that is said the better. I just want to get through this splitting process and into a new life as scary and as unknown as it is. I have no desire to save my marriage anymore. It's not that I feel as if someone has wronged me they're doing what they need to do what's best for them. Well then I need to do what's best for me. If that means taking my son out for the entire day, or avoiding her and BIL's then that's what I'm going to do anyways.
You better get used to it because your son is 1. My ex texted me last night and guess why? Because she wanted something. Me to buy my son shorts. If she could get the kids Sunday for awhile to see papa and if I had any questions for her to ask my son’s teacher she is meeting with tomorrow. 90% of your communication will be because someone want something from the other. The other 10% is going to be FYI communications. You’re unlikely to get any “what can I do for you texts”.
I giving you my opinion that’s all I can give. Not only are you bitter about your W you’re bitter against pretty much all women in general. When two people are happily married they don’t get divorced. Those are the facts. Accept that this is how she feels now and that she feels what she’s doing is best for her.
Learn and grow from your mistakes. That’s the only way we get better.
I am seeing a lot of wandering thoughts, some seem contradictory, and it makes me wonder if you've taken the time to organize your thoughts. For instance: "I don't want to get divorce I don't want my marriage to fail. I don't want to split the family." then later: "I have no desire to save my marriage anymore."
Those are not congruent. Either you don't want to get a D, for the marriage to fail or you no longer want to save it. It as if when you typed the paragraph about not wanting to be there this weekend, your feelings had you type that you didn't want a D. Then later in your post your were talking about how you are trying to deal with your W's behavior and felt that you DID want a D. Wanting to save your marriage is congruent with not wanting a D. Not wanting to save your marriage is congruent with wanting a D. Those two cannot be mixed up. And if they are mixed up in your head you have to deal with that in IC.
However, if you pressed me for what I think? I think you do not WANT a D, but you are essentially saying you don't want to put in the work to save your marriage. That is a different thing, and it means that you are sitting down and letting the world bring to you whatever it brings whether you want it or not. And the risk you run here is 10-15-20 years from now looking back and thinking: "If I had only done this....maybe...." or "If I had behaved this way....maybe..." Take from my experience: that is not a pleasant to be in your own head! Further, your son is 1. In 12-19 years you will be answering similar questions from him. You want to be able to look him in the eye, and tell him "I did everything in my power to not get a D, but it wasn't possible." (Notice, you don't need to point the finger at your W, but let him know that it wasn't in your power to prevent.)
IH, do yourself. Your son. Your future W (whether that is your current W or a new one). Do everyone involved a huge favor and deal with this properly. And that is through finding a good IC, and dealing with all of your emotions and feelings around this. My guess is that you are a bit of a control freak. And this whole thing being so out of your control has you spinning, and it is an unnatural feeling not to be able to find a way to control it. For instance, your W wants to sell the house (the reasons do not matter). You could have made it be known that you weren't in agreement with that, but you could have finished the projects in the name of doing what was best for you. It is your house too. You stand to profit from its sale as well. I moved last year. We bought a new house. Then we prepared the old house for the market. It was a weird dynamic as I got things done around the old house it hit me that if had done many of those things before, neither one of us would probably have wanted to move! Who knows what effect finishing the projects may have had on your WAW. Maybe none. Or maybe she would have started questioning. Now you will never know.
IH, we don't beat you up here because we don't care. I don't type out a response like this because I want to see you hurting, and angry and upset. I do it because having been a guy in your shoes I know how hard all this is. It is difficult to cut through the pain, the hurt, the bitterness, the lack of control, and make decisions that are right and for the best. And so many of here, who can objectively comment on other's sitches, try to help the LBS see the forest through the trees.
Please work this out in IC. I've never heard anyone that got into therapy look back and go "wow, I really regret doing IC". However, I have many people lament that they should have done IC a long time ago. Or they should have tried it when they have not. One of the things i've learned through experience is that NOT attempting something always leaves you with regrets, it turns out to be a negative learning experience. At least attempting something, even if it fails, is always a positive learning experience.
M(53), W(54),D(19) M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017 Ring and Piecing since March 2018
IH, I have to agree with Steve and LH. I understand why you are bitter and angry and agree it totally [censored]. But you need to understand this bitterness is only making the situation more toxic with her. Your wife has made up her mind that she wants a D. She is in control of this and you feel powerless. I suspect you are attempting to get back some degree of control with your actions. But you need to drop the rope and you need to do that for your own good.
I know it is hard and it hurts but GAL and live your own life. When you make a decision only because you don't want to do something to help her you are letting her influence your life. You need to do what you think is right and not because you don't want to do something that will end up helping her or not.
I just have to plan out events to keep us both out of the house and active until BIL's leave. Don't get me wrong, me and BIL's get along just fine. I just don't want to be present and get roped into doing something W wants me to do for her own benefit and gain. I don't want to sell the house I don't want to get divorce I don't want my marriage to fail. I don't want to split the family.
IH, so your BIL's are coming over to do some home repairs that you said you would do and bought the materials for but never did? If so, then why do you think that's W "roping you into" anything? Sounds like she's given up on depending on you to do it, so she's making it happen on her own. It sounds like you're saying if they make the repairs then it allows her to sell the home for more, thus benefiting her. But that benefits you as well, and in the same amount/ percentage it benefits her, right? As for not wanting the marriage to fail, it already did. And not wanting to split the family, it already is. Accept those things and move on. Maybe you can build a new R with her later, but for now you have to let her go and focus on you.
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But if she is going to keep pushing her narrative and agenda. Then I sure as hell am not going to help it along. She can figure it out on her own.
It sounds like she's doing exactly that, and it's giving your heartburn. I don't see it as her pushing an agenda, she's just trying to get things done that you're not following through on.
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Just looking for advice to spend time out of the house until I can return to it. Maybe I'll take him to a car show or two? He likes the hot rods.
He's 1? I wouldn't spend too much time at a car show, I doubt it'll hold his interest for long. Plus car owners tend to get real nervous when a toddler is around their price-and-joy. I would suggest something more age-appropriate like a zoo, water park, swimming, science museum, even a local park to hang out. He can touch and enjoy things without constantly hearing "don't touch that!" like he would at a car show.
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If W considers me not finishing some of the small stuff around the house, as a big intentional FU to her, well I consider her selling the house an even bigger one to me.
I agree with LH, your posts just in general have this very angry, bitter tone and this "I'm going to get even with her" attitude. Do you think that is helping you grow as a person?
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Now I know I should have finished these things, the split custody and work has added more burden to it. (Yeah I know excuses excuses.) But really? If your SO was selling your home without your approval because of THEIR PERSONAL DEBT THAT THEY INCURRED IN THE MARRIAGE, that they wanted out of the M, and you couldn't afford to keep the M home on your own income and refinance, and you're credit was poor because of W pulling multiple loans to keep things afloat BECAUSE OF THEIR DEBTS, and still jointly being able to swing the mortgage. Would you have any incentive other than sale profit to help them get closer to their goal of leaving and selling?
You can't afford to live in the house, so it's going to have to be sold sooner or later regardless. So yes, your incentive is to maximize the value of the home so you can get the most out of it possible when it sells. You're thinking emotionally and not rationally, and I get that, but you've got to work on that detachment.
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I know their true intentions on that cuz they're good guys just helping their sister. I guess I'm just angry at myself for not finishing these things in the first place, and now someone else is coming in to help with it.
Aha, now that sounds like you're getting to the root of things!
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I know the sale if the M home is inevitable, and most likely D is inevitable, and I've accepted that, and am preparing for such. I just have no desire to help it along.
I don't see how repairing the home or helping your BIL's repair it are helping the D along. I think you're drawing causalities that aren't really there.
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I just want to get through this splitting process and into a new life as scary and as unknown as it is. I have no desire to save my marriage anymore.
Really. Then why all the backlash against some home repairs.
AS and LH19 thanks for helping me look at it from a different perspective. Maybe I do need to put my hurt and pride aside and help facilitate cooperation with W and BIL in the projects and sale. If for anything as an example to my S1 and myself. Finish what you start. Same goes for myself. Still not looking forward to the awkwardness of BIL coming in to "bail me out" in a sense. Don't want to talk to them about their sister. I could have wrapped this stuff up months ago. Im just not motivated with all that is going on, and I do need to own that. Its really hard not to be defensive in my own mind about all this. I'm trying not to outwardly show it. These are the reasons why I've set my personal boundaries not to get into any emotionally charged conversations with W any longer. She is going to do what she wants to do to achieve her end goal. So why do I need to partake in it? I'm sure it's coming off me as the silent treatment and arrogance though. I just don't want to engage and anything emotional right now. That's why I had her only send request through email, but also because of constant communication issues. I need to get a hold of it internally a little more, deal with it, and choose the logical path forward in getting things done.
I feel weird today. I feel like im 16 again. Mentally and physically. Must be the weight im dropping. I've had 5 people this week comment on it, funny thing is I'm eating crap and not even exercising. Must be the frequencies. Been listening to some metal from my youth. Angst, fire, passion, and melody. Sometimes i feel that my music is all I have that keeps me sane. My boy enjoyed the park and the car show today. He lasted about an hour before he lost interest though.
Think its time i finally learn how to play that guitar. Im done with everyday life in general. Time to return to the music. The only thing that will ever speak to my soul more than any woman, or any possession or hobby on this earth. .
AS and LH19 thanks for helping me look at it from a different perspective. Maybe I do need to put my hurt and pride aside and help facilitate cooperation with W and BIL in the projects and sale. If for anything as an example to my S1 and myself. Finish what you start. Same goes for myself. Still not looking forward to the awkwardness of BIL coming in to "bail me out" in a sense. Don't want to talk to them about their sister. I could have wrapped this stuff up months ago. Im just not motivated with all that is going on, and I do need to own that. Its really hard not to be defensive in my own mind about all this. I'm trying not to outwardly show it. These are the reasons why I've set my personal boundaries not to get into any emotionally charged conversations with W any longer. She is going to do what she wants to do to achieve her end goal. So why do I need to partake in it? I'm sure it's coming off me as the silent treatment and arrogance though. I just don't want to engage and anything emotional right now. That's why I had her only send request through email, but also because of constant communication issues. I need to get a hold of it internally a little more, deal with it, and choose the logical path forward in getting things done.
YEEEEESSSSS! That is an excellent post right there! Good introspection!
Originally Posted by IHCLACS
Think its time i finally learn how to play that guitar. Im done with everyday life in general. Time to return to the music. The only thing that will ever speak to my soul more than any woman, or any possession or hobby on this earth.
Great. It helps to find something you're passionate about and can really bury yourself in.
W has stated before that maybe the completion of these things maybe would have made a difference, but her actions say otherwise. Either way she is selling partly for her own financial reasons, and partly because of us. My W is not initiating divorce, but seperation. I am initiating divorce, but like everything else am lacking the follow through on it, even though I am resigned to her and my situation. My experience is the latter Steve85. I am resigned. It is a place of resignation. Am I making things more toxic by being avoidant? Yeah in a way. Silently...But yeah, but its better than making things more toxic by having R talks, rehashing misunderstandings over and over etc. Getting emotionally frustrated. I just decided to avoid all situations and talks with W all together now other than logistics, house, and son, and I need it all in writing by email because of our different perceptions and communication issues. I think that most of us here in our situations have vicariously tried for months to be friendly, positive, and upbeat in our interactions with WAS. I just don't go out of my way for it now. I'm not the one who created this silent distant tension. I'm not the one who's going to solve it anymore. Everyone here said to pull back, so that's what I am doing. I'm not going to go out of my way to be friendly to make wife feel better and less guilty about what she's doing, just to maintain amicable status with no chance of R. I'm still positive friendly, but again, I just won't go out of my way for it with the interactions. We don't even say good morning anymore. Whether I created that dynamic of distance, or whether she created it? I'm fine with that at this time. At least I know where I stand. I'm not helping or hurting the situation. Yeah I am a little bit bitter for a lot of different reasons. My S1 will never get to know our awesome yard, swim in our pool again, run around at our backyard family barbecues. Bake a pizza with his dad. Sit by a relaxing fire with us. All the things that I previously worked hard for to build up to this moment that was all for nothing. But he will have other wonderful experiences with his mom dad, cousins and family. Just seperated that's all.
The reason why I am upset with women in general is because I don't think most of them really understand how divorce affects a man and his ego. I would like to think most men feel their failures in a different way and on different fronts. I honestly believe that they don't really care what men really go through in all of this. ( Well alright maybe they care but they won't take the initiative actually figure it out, express, or explore it in great lengths.) They're just concerned with themselves, their children, their friends and family, and coping with everyday life the best they can, and achieving happiness. I think men feel their failures at the marital romantical level, at the family level, the sexual level, at the financial level (Can you say alimony and child support?) and to some extent at the fatherly level. (I sure as hell am not going to make that mistake.) Men have been trying to figure out what women want for years and Freud died pursuing it. The honest truth is they don't even know what they want. But the point that I'm trying to illustrate is that men are always trying to attempt the effort to figure it out, and figure them out, whether it be marriage, dating, or pickup. We always seem to be behind the curve of the current times of what their wants needs and demands are from relationships. I find it ironic that some women say that they want a traditional guy who opens doors, pulls out chairs, displays chivilary, is a provisionist, handsome, entertaining, has drive and purpose, etc, but in the same hand, they don't need a man, they are strong and independent, and make every attempt to demasculate and $hit test a man within a relationship and marriage. Men of today have become promiscuous dogs, or lacking intestinal fortitude, with no respect for women in general, treating them as disposable. Women are getting married later well past their fertile years, because of the pursuit of their careers, due to the current economic model, they get married later and have children in their mid 30's, finally land a man, have a few kids to satisfy their maternal needs and desires, then 50% of them divorce good men because they are unhappy and they don't know why. In turn they treat good men as disposable as well The vicious cycle continues. Men disrespect women because of their societal behaviors of today, and women disrespect men because of their behaviors as well. Personally I think it's a bunch of unintended narcissism in society propagated by the culture and the media. Using man's and woman's nature against them. Men are hardwired for logic, aggression, competitiveness, Excellency, Sexual Pursuit, reproduction, etc. Women are hardwired for feelings, intuitions, nurturing, care taking, and self-preservation. Hence the abundance of vanity. I'm not saying that men can't be vain I'm just saying that it's more prevalent with women because of their nature. Just like it's more prevalent for men to be idealistic and sexually aggressive. I know this is more of a western societal problem of value and culture then it is between the sexes. But I wanted to distinguish the differences. We are being pitted off against one another and most don't even realize it.
My POV of every woman going through this D/S/WAW/MLC or whatever they are unhappy, and they aren't even truly sure why. But the H is always the majority of the cause of it. You vets are familiar with the stats everyday. 70% of D are initiated by women due to their unhappiness. I seriously have a problem with the ideological values that western women have today. They want too much, they want to have it all, what you do for them and your family sacrificially will never satisfy them. They are never satisfied with their careers, their pursuits in life, their marriages, their husbands, their places in life. who they are, where they want to be,. All the things they were told to chase by society that they would think would make them happy. The degrees, the career, the social status, the self worth and achievement. Not that there's anything wrong with any of these things. But they wonder why they're confused, mixed up, burnt out, deprived exhausted, tired, all while having to be a Mom and a W. I think women are much better equipped to multitask than men. But emotionally they cannot handle all the stresses and pressures of current everyday life in its current form. It goes against their nature. But they definitely get much better at it and being emotionally stronger as a result of experience, but at the cost of their happiness and family all while trying to pursue such. Economics is also plays a role in the traditional gender role reversals. Then they read books while going through D on self help to help them rebuild their sense of self, all the while these well intentioned but misinformed authors ACTUALLY ENCOURAGE DIVORCE GOING FROM SURVIVING TO THRIVING. People wonder why I am so upset at feminism. It sells hopes and dreams, but never mentions or weighs the actual cost and long term costs or consequences. I sometimes feel like nothing more than a sperm donor. She's got the kid, her career, and she's going to profit from selling our home and breaking up our family. (I know there's a lot more to it than just that I know that she's hurting too.) I'm trying to just accept things for what they are rather than being angry at the way they are. Let me ask all of you something? Since I have gone through great lengths to explain and research all this, not only bevause I want to be more aware, informed, and solve a societal problem, and apply it torwards a personal problem. If all these things didn't have some truth to them? Then why would MWD form a "script" or theoretical and clinical principles as a result of seeing and learning what she has seen through thousands of counseling sessions? She knows what's up in society and marriage. If she didn't see all the things I'm describing then there wouldn't be any acronyms, scripts, or theories for this board to follow. Im glad her bias is pro marriage. Im glad I've found her works and you guys. I'm glad I'm aware of all these societal issues with the institution of marriage. But sadly I believe it's an uphill battle to change it, whether it be on a societal or personal level. Our culture has been deceived into becoming self empowering narcissists that follow whimsical desires in the moment, rather than thinking about the long-term effects of current human behavior from cradle to grave on our current model.
Maybe I should just put my focus into my own life, instead of constantly focusing on society's issues? It's just that I'm a reader and an intellect. I get Tunnel Vision on subject to interest me for months, and since this has been my current problem I want to learn more about it and why. I know I'm probably driving myself crazy as a result of it, but nonetheless I'm still a little wiser for it. I've been trying to study relationship since I was 16 and now 38. Now that I've encountered yet another failure I want to learn from it.
I can't change my past mistakes, I can only learn from them. Taking action in learning from them is going to take me a lot of time and space to process these emotions and thoughts in order to take appropriate actions . I stopped beating myself over the head with the what if's months ago, as I cannot change the past, but improve from it. I've let go of any control. Control is an illusion.
Here's something silly that just happened at me right before I wrote this yesterday. It was another emotional rollercoaster moment with no logical reason. I put my son down for his afternoon nap. I was listening to you tube and fell asleep myself. I ended a 15 min. dream where I was in my parents kitchen and my mother and father were there in their 40s. I was 25 in dream. (Father actually deceased 7 years and mother 75) I asked them if I can drink the Mountain Dew at the back of the refrigerator. I went to go look at the expiration date and it said it was from 1991. For some reason I found it so comical I fell on the floor laughing, and parents were laughing too. Then I woke up. I was good for a few moments, then started crying because I realized I was back in reality. My dreams are very vivid and emotional. I've had a lot of dreams of ex's and people that were out of my life for many years, as well as family members over the years, that leaves me very emotional until I snap back into reality after 20 minutes of being awake. I have a handful full of dreams a year about my father every time I wake up crying. I miss him, and I know I can never fill his shoes in some sense, but in others I can. Myself or my brothers never had a very close relationship with my father. He was a pain in the a$$ to live with as he got older, grumpier and more ressigned after he was gone. The funny thing is my brothers and I realized after he was gone that we could never fill his shoes no matter how hard we tried. When we were little he was like a god to us. We got older we want to be nothing like him. As I got older, a lot of his characteristics came out in me as I got married, and eventually had a child of my own, some of those traditional characteristics led to the downfall of my M in my wife's perception. I wasn't treating her as an "equal" I always agreed that a marriage should be an equal partnership, but men and women are not equals. Just dfifferent. What's interesting about all these dissolutions of M and experiences, as Freudian as it sounds, we revert back to a childlike state, frombour R with family members, and our coping mechanisms that we learned from them. My wife is also dealing with childhood like issues with the relations of her father who has dementia now, that he was a very mild alcoholic to deal with his anxiety from Vietnam, and was emotionally unavailable to his children. But still funny and upbeat none the less. Ironically my FIL treatment from his own father, who was according to my W, was slightly disapproving. My FIL was more scared of coming home to his father than he was being in Vietnam .Now I know why when my father-in-law was in his right mind was always seeking approval and so was my wife. She was a people pleaser. I think she learned it from him. I guess you could say some parts of me are oppositional defiance being raised in the environment I was raised in. My family and I are very resistant to change in a societal sense in anything past the 1980's. That was our peak as a family and we like to retain those Traditional Values despite what is going on in the world today. My wife was also raised in a traditional sense. But I also think modern ideologies and feminism has had an influence on her as well. She wants the traditional benefits of yesteryear and wants to stay home with our son, but also believes and thinks the way some millennials think today on certain things, topics, etc, but not all. This is why we could never be a united front in raising our son. I don't think she respects men, despite having good brothers and a good father. It's hard for me to respect most women, because they are so susceptible to any kind of change that is being pushed out there by any source of media. She wanted me to measure up to her degrees with her pursuits and higher education to support a family. I'm a Tradesman and I make decent money. she makes more than I do because she is a teacher and a specialist. But I have significantly less debt than her. Like $85,000 less. So who is right? Who resents who for not meeting their expectations of someone else?
Hi Steve85. Those are some great examples of friendships, from an adult perspective, and a teen perspective of how we can neglect friendships and non romantic relationships that we actually treasure, because of our own personal issues, desires for what we think we want and need. It actually made me see a timeline of my life in relation to what you are saying. I remember in HS I only had a handful of friends at 14. My brother who was 10 years older said to me. Most but not all will disappear after H.S. and he was right. I developed having more friends as I moved up the ranks in HS. But they all fell off the face of the earth shortly after I graduated. I still retain one good friend since kindergarten, who I have just a few things in common with. He is a good thoughtful friend, who always goes out of his way, and I need to be a little more reciprocal with that, as my own relationships, personal agendas, life, etc throughout the years, have somewhat interfered with that.
I think friendships old and new do change over time as we change and grow. That they are always fluid. Because we are always growing, as some friendships stop serving us, and some still do, and some develop into new ones. Just like a marriage in a sense. It could go either way. We are socially complex humans.
Coming back around to the men vs. women thing Steve. Again I don't think either is superior. We are supposed to compliment one another. I'm just saying. Things like different lines of thinking as individuals, preferences, differencrs between the sexes, there are so many variables to make a successful romantical relationship, its a wonder to me how men and women get together, get married, reproduce, and sustain longevity in the first place?
I'm simply exploring the differences in psychology between men and women, and I find women to be significantly more complex in today's society in the West.
What do most men want in general? A good supportive loving companion to have fun and grow old with. A hot meal, regular sex, a little adventure, and a peaceful life of not constantly being nagged, or living up to unreasonable expectations, some forgiveness, equal effort, and patience for a H &W mistakes. A woman is entirely more complex. They want to be emotionally satisfied, entertained, prosperous in their career by their own volition, merit and effort, balanced time for family, self and relaxation, a H that is more successful provisionally than herself, stability, 6 pack, 6 figures, and 6 feet tall, I could go on and on. You could meet all those requirements, and according to statistics 50% of those marriages are happy, and the other are still unhappy, whether it be with their marriages, or just with themselves and their lives. I'm sure men do this too, to be fair, hence the MLC sports car, motorcycle, fast women, etc.... I just think women are more prone to it and its independant suggestive model for several reasons in our current model of society and social dynamics that they can "have it all." That they are strong, capable. That they don't need a man. That they can be happy by finding their inner voice, inner intuition, and inner purpose. Again there are nothing wrong with these things in a healthy balance of self improvement, and understanding how the world actually works. If you look at the mindset of women from 50 60 70 years ago from the greatest generation to the baby boomers. They better understood themselves and real life situations. Life was so much simpler. They were more patient and forgiving, more practical, and more realistic. I think feminism although useful in professional development, but on a personal level, has sold women a good line of BS of what they want and need for their "happiness" from all different levels of media. They are constantly told and taught the fantasy of ronanticism through reality tv shows like the bachelor, Disney characters, movies, and magazines. How how to thrive after divorce. How to be happy, how to empower themselves.
I'm really trying to be fair here. There is a serious problem in our culture with maturity, development, coping skills, relationships, and marriage. Everything is very egalitarian, but nature tells us otherwise.
Men just as much as women in general have become equally promiscuous, self entitled, delusional, selfish, pre occupied with too many options, too much confusion, gender roles, household roles, provisional roles, united front child rearing roles, etc.
Sorry if I'm all over the place with my thoughts. All the time I spend thinking about these things I probably could be living a more fruitful life. But maybe I need to figure them out in order to do so?
IHC, I can agree with much of what you wrote. Yes societal pressures have turned gender roles on their head. No doubt about it. Whether it is PC to say or not, feminism in its purest form is ANTI gender roles. However, I do not think going back to when women couldn't vote is correct either. Nor going back to when it was impossible for women to make it in the workplace. I think there can be a happy medium.
But I will lay some blame on we, the men's feet, too. For instance, let's take your situation. You've admitted you can't afford the house by yourself. That you need your wife to work too. You have a 1 year-old. 50 years ago you would have lived within your means, as a SIKs family, your W would have stayed home to raise your D. That is very rare these days. But guess what. It can be done, because my W and I did it. In 2004 we decided to make it so she could stay home with our new baby girl. We got rid of cellphones. We cut back to basic cable. I sold my sweet 2002 F250 and started driving a 1993 Taurus that was paid for. We refinanced the house from the 14 years it had left on a 15 year mortgage back to a 30 year traditional mortgage. We gave up eating out except a couple of times a month, I packed my lunch to work, we didn't take expensive vacations. Over time we were able to add some of those things back I my income grew, but the point is that people CAN make it today as SIKs, if they give up keeping up with the Joneses. If they make a stand against daycare as a way to raise their kids. If they get their priorities in the right place.
And you site the 70% D started by women. But not all of them are because their Hs were great, or made small mistakes, and grew unhappy. I'd say at least half of that 70% is because the H stepped out of the marriage and had an affair. I would put the figure at women just growing unhappy and giving up on their marriages at, and I think this is a liberal number, at 35%. Yes it happens. But you could look at the other half of those sitches and say it was the man that grew unhappy and couldn't keep it in his pants.
The termination of marriages has grown in our society for a myriad of reasons. Feminism is part of it, but I would put good old fashioned selfishness and greed at the heart of it. And selfishness and greed are genderless conditions.
You continue to avoid the IC question. Are you in IC?
M(53), W(54),D(19) M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017 Ring and Piecing since March 2018
I can say confidently that my W's goal of having 3 kids close in age and a satisfying career and living a comfortable lifestyle with a nice home and cars and vacations has put IMMENSE pressure on our MR. Add in a disruptive move, approaching age 40, my inability in my career to work PT... plus a sprinkling of really poor couples communication skills... it was a recipe for disaster.
That's not to brush off my contributions to the deterioration of our marriage. But the accumulation of those factors, and both of us (IMO) having maladaptive coping strategies to all these life changes -- that is the reason for our MR failure. My W has her own narrative and that's okay. We can point to each other's flaws and assign blame - I tend to look at it as a joint failure. It's disappointing and sad but it is what it is.
Is this Feminism at work? I don't know. I can't speak for my W. She clearly envisions a better life without me as her H.
Question about a strange phenomenon? Has anyone ever gotten to a point in their sich where somedays, their spouses voice sounds unfamiliar to them? Like they sound different, not like themselves, or as we remembered them anymore?
Steve85, Unichen, AS, Davide and LH. This is why I love you guys, your time, and your responses in throwing ideas around here. You see what I am saying is truth, and agree with it to a certain extent. But it is a part truth. You challenge my thoughts and my beliefs in a healthy way, through in different perspectives and ideas, and it keeps me grounded, and my mind from getting tunnel vision. And that is really what I think we all need on here. To your last post Steve, I never thought about it that way with the percentages. That's a fair and hypothetical assessment. People csn find ways to make things work as well within a family unit f they prioritize correctly. These are all great examples of broadening of the mind. Ill stop painting everything with such a broad brush.
I've been listening to Eckart Tolle all day while S1 is napping after visiting MIL from recovery surgery. I started to beat myself up that I wasn't doing anything productive, but then I was like? Its a rainy day. S1 is sleeping. Why am I angry with myself and why do I keep doing that? Applying pressure to myself? His videos are amazing at reframing your beliefs and thoughts. Definately time well spent. Definately happy and light hearted that I am seeing the world through a different lens today.
Steve85 I am in IC but not Marital IC. Its IC for BPD. Its been helping as far as emotional regulation, and challenging yhoughts and beliefs. But this Eckart Tolle stuff is just blowing me away, and unravelling my tunnel vision of the world and thoughts. I was familiar with his books from 14 years ago, but obviously stopped when I got involved with W.
I've been listening to Eckart Tolle all day while S1 is napping after visiting MIL from recovery surgery. I started to beat myself up that I wasn't doing anything productive, but then I was like? Its a rainy day. S1 is sleeping. Why am I angry with myself and why do I keep doing that? Applying pressure to myself? His videos are amazing at reframing your beliefs and thoughts. Definately time well spent. Definately happy and light hearted that I am seeing the world through a different lens today.
Steve85 I am in IC but not Marital IC. Its IC for BPD. Its been helping as far as emotional regulation, and challenging yhoughts and beliefs. But this Eckart Tolle stuff is just blowing me away, and unravelling my tunnel vision of the world and thoughts. I was familiar with his books from 14 years ago, but obviously stopped when I got involved with W.
Isn't his stuff great? Letting go of outcomes and realizing that focusing on the past or thinking obsessively about the future are all irrelevant. All we ever have is now.
His books helped me greatly- and they appeared as if out of nowhere when I was at my lowest.
Ironwill I read his stuff when I was attempting to be a PUA and studying all the stuff in the seduction community. One of the guru's then reccomended his stuff. A girl I was dating before my W (who was also crazy and manipulative) who was working on self reccomended him to me. I have The Power Of Now, and haven't cracked it open in 13 years. Along with my attraction and dating books like The Game, The Laws of Attraction, Kama Sutra, etc...and many other self help books from Napoleon Hill and others. My W isn't that bad, means well, is a good person (Just self esteem issues colflicting with M) is being mildly but unawaringly manipulative. But his videos are exponential. Real mind shifts. Glad you are enjoying and employing his reframes.
Ironwill I read his stuff when I was attempting to be a PUA and studying all the stuff in the seduction community. One of the guru's then reccomended his stuff. A girl I was dating before my W (who was also crazy and manipulative) who was working on self reccomended him to me. I have The Power Of Now, and haven't cracked it open in 13 years. Along with my attraction and dating books like The Game, The Laws of Attraction, Kama Sutra, etc...and many other self help books from Napoleon Hill and others. My W isn't that bad, means well, is a good person (Just self esteem issues colflicting with M) is being mildly but unawaringly manipulative. But his videos are exponential. Real mind shifts. Glad you are enjoying and employing his reframes.
It's worth another read, for sure. Definitely came to me at the right moment - exactly when I needed it and through a very unlikely source that I nearly missed.
Been trying to let things be and follow signs from the universe or God or whatever you want to call it. that seems to be something I've ignored for my whole life.
It happens when you get quiet. I dont know how else better to describe it, but cancel out all the distractions and noise of the hustle and bustle of modern living. Go somewhere in nature alone and just be for a few minutes, an hour, whatever.
This is especially sums up what I've been trying to say on here for weeks, without being labeled as a misogynist, behind my previous hurt and frustration how the sexes think and love differently in today's western society. The societal, mortal psychological, emotional, and social differences in what is fueling the high divorce rates today. You can respectfully agree or disagree with it but it's worth the read if anyone is interested? Its a good article.
I read that article. As a woman, and a feminist, and as someone who was the breadwinner for our family while my H was a SAHD (but the two of us otherwise pretty much conform to 'Mars and Venus' type stereotypes in our emotional lives and ways of doing relationships) it doesn't really chime with my experience. All this talk of economy and marketplace might be useful when looking at the ways people live their economic lives, and yes, marriage is in part a social and economic arrangement.
But when it comes to thinking about the ways that two individuals, both of them shaped by a society that has stereotyped views of both men and women that harm both men and women and limit their freedoms to be who they really are, I think it's a really quite superficial view.
It doesn't really matter, does it, if someone has a theory that most women are driven to marriage because of the status it apparently offers, and that most women drive divorce because they've been culturally influenced by books and articles saying that divorce will make them happy? What matters is the way your own shortcomings have damage your marriage, the way your wife's shortcomings have damaged your marriage, and what you do about yourself from here on out.
I believe most humans get into partnerships because they want connection. I also believe most women are as different from each other as most men are. And I believe that there is no true intimacy without freedom - neither party acting dishonestly or manipulatively - and without equality.
If you don't want to be thought of as misogynistic, posting a link to an article like that is not helping you achieve your goal.
You seem to invest a lot of energy in trying to get the people on the board to agree with you that you are a victim of feminism and societal change. I get that it's easier in the short term to blame your situation on society, but I don't think it's going to help you in the long run.
You'll be much better off if you channel that energy into improving yourself and your relationship skills.
Me: 44 H: 44 Kids: 20, 16, 16, and 10 Together/Married: 22 years H announced he was emotionally detached and considering D: 4/4/16 H announced he is going to try to stay and reconnect: 5/1/16
I get that it's easier in the short term to blame your situation on society, but I don't think it's going to help you in the long run.
You'll be much better off if you channel that energy into improving yourself and your relationship skills.
I've had this experience too. I didn't blame my problems on the great feminist conspiracy, but I did blame a lot of my own behaviour, my bad marriage, the troubles with my children and my health and wider family on class. The thing is - it is true - working class families in the UK are significantly disadvantaged in lots of ways and the outcomes for their working lives, marriages, children, mental and physical health are much worse. So perhaps there was some truth in my beliefs. Perhaps a lot of truth.
But none of that changed anything about my situation or how I felt about it. The only thing that did (and it has been a long slow process for me) is looking inwards then taking appropriate action. Not action to change the world, to start the socialist utopia, to dismantle the patriarchy (though it would be nice to do a couple of those things too!!) but to look closely at the micro-interactions in my own home, family and workplace and to take action to make sure I was acting healthily and setting boundaries that meant I would only accept healthy behaviour from others.
Looking outwards and trying to change society for the better is a brilliant ambition. Unless it's a way to deflect your individual responsibility. Then it keeps you stuck as a victim. None of your theories about high value women or anti-marriage culture are going to make you into a better husband or your wife into someone who wants you.
This is especially sums up what I've been trying to say on here for weeks, without being labeled as a misogynist, behind my previous hurt and frustration how the sexes think and love differently in today's western society. The societal, mortal psychological, emotional, and social differences in what is fueling the high divorce rates today. You can respectfully agree or disagree with it but it's worth the read if anyone is interested? Its a good article.
Didn't read it all. IHC obviously a lot of things have influenced the state of marriage in Western society. I don't really want to get into the politics of all of that, especially since a more traditional view of the issue is viewed as politically incorrect. I do not agree that your researching these things makes you a misogynist. That is an ugly word that is thrown around way too easily today. But I do agree with others that laying the blame for the failure of your marriage solely at the feet of this type of thing is short-sighted. And sets you up for failure in the future.
The truth is, those pressures may or may not have contributed. Maybe you two were a bad match from the beginning. Maybe you didn't love her as deeply as you should, and therefore your bad behavior caused it. Many men marry women to "lock in exclusive sex", only to be unhappily married years later. Only you know the truth, and even then you may need serious IC to get to the real truth.
Regardless, not working on it and must moving on and filing for D is a cop out on the WAS's part. One expert I've read since my latest sitch put it this one: Instead of trying to find someone to love, love the one you found.
One thing that was interesting in that was the chart on remarriage. I read another anti-divorce expert that specialized in why women cheat. (Men cheat too, but this particular female author was concentrated on the fact that women initiate most Ds and that they usually have moved on with someone new before doing so). She wrote a book on the subject from the point-of-view of consultation she did with a woman that had BD'd her H, asked him to leave the house, and was engaged in a torrid affair with a younger man. One of her points to this woman was that eventually her H was going to give up, move on, and remarry. She asked this cheater if she was ready to see her H do that. She was not. (The mindset of the WW!) The author pointed out to her that 2nd marriages have an even higher D rate, and that it is easier for divorced men to remarry than it is for divorced women.
Of course the book ended with her not wanting to end the affair, but also not wanting to completely cut her H lose. The wayward is the most selfish creature on the planet!
Last edited by Steve85; 06/18/1912:38 PM.
M(53), W(54),D(19) M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017 Ring and Piecing since March 2018
I am getting into informal child custody debates this morning over email.
I haven't sent out my response as of yet, and wanted everyone to review it first. So 2x4's are welcome if necessary. I need to know if I am being ridiculous or if W is, and I am just legally CMOA for future encounters. I am literally typing all this up while silently sitting right in front of W and S1 on couch with nothing being said other than S1. Names and emails have been omitted.
Here is what started it:
W: Just a reminder that xxx and xxx are coming to finish some house projects on Saturday. I know you said you will be out for the day to help xxxxx and xxxx move, so this is just a courtesy reminder.
H: Ok thanks for the reminder.
H: Can we agree that since I voluntarily took off work yesterday to care for S1, that it can be applied to one of the make up days that I owe from working away from home previous weeks? Which puts the days owed to one?
W: Daytime childcare has not been a part of our custodial agreement. That time has been specifically in regard to evenings and weekends. If it were, I would be owed much more than just two days! I have a list of all the days I've had to stay home with S1 due to no childcare, many of them unpaid. I can send you all of those dates if you would like to see them. So to answer your question, no, yesterday does not count towards the makeup two days from you.
( Anticipated Response) H: If you want to deny that my voluntary choice to stay home on June 19th with our son, due to him being ill, and not count it torwards my nightly schedule time "owed" for working away several weeks ago. That's fine. I can understand that, but I don't have to agree with it.
I will agree that daytime childcare has not been a part of our tentative unofficial custodial agreement schedule. It looks like I am going to have to bear the burden of creating an official and legally binding parenting plan (Like I said I would.) and create clear terms and conditions that we both agree upon with clearer conditions, times, schedules, etc.
In all fairness of interests to both parties. Your mom has been the designated child care provider during our work hours in watching our son, up until recently due to her health complications and surgeries.
Since your Mom and Dad are retired, and your Mom is the designated primary child care provider currently during working hours as agreed between us. When you are not on summer vacation as per you're profession as a Behavioral Specialist for XXX , which revolves around the school calendar year, you have voluntarily taken custodial responsibility for our son revolving around normal working hours during those vacation months. This has been taken into consideration.
Unfortunately my profession as a XXXX does not afford 2.5 months of vacation whether paid or unpaid, and revolves around typical normal business construction hours on an annual basis.
I also understand your considerable FLMA time off recently from work to care for ill family members also includes your father who has dementia. While having no recourse or compensation from your employer, and also having to bear the personal burden of your time related to child care for our son, I understand this is a considerable exertion of time and expense personally. But in all equitible fairness. Some of your FLMA absences have to do with your Father, and some have to do with your Mother.
Whether your FLMA days of absence be due to your Mom's unavailability to watch our son due to her own personal health complications, or due to your Mom being unavailable to watch our son due to you're Dad's Dr's appointments and his dementia. It is reasonably arguable that your FLMA days of absence are not applicable related to child care regarding your Father's Dr's appointments, unless your Mom was incapacitated, and or unavailable to care for you're Father, and our son simultaneously during said days of your FMLA leave of absence.
In my opinion. Your days missed having to do with your Father's Dr's appointments does not accurately reflect torwards your equitable and custodial "owed" time off, of myself, to provide make up days of child care, since your Father is not the designated primary child care provider during our work hours. You're FLMA time off should only be applicable torwards your Mother's unavailability to provide child care, and should reflect torwards days "owed"
However If you can substantiate further documentation which FLMA days were applicable torwards your Mother's care, and which ones were applicable torwards your Father's care, it may be helpful in possibly calculating which days were "owed" either due to you're Mother being unavailable to watch our son, on specific dates while she was in good health at time, due to Father's Dr's appointments. I will take that into consideration as well.
Because I currently posses no official record of FLMA days which were used by you, and cannot distinguish the difference which FLMA days were used because your Mom's unavailability due to her own health complications, and which FLMA days were used torwards your Father's Dr's appointments when your Mom was healthy and capable of watching S1. It is difficult to determine what is considerably and reasonably fair. I would like accurate record of such to make that determination.
It is also arguable from my point of view, that I have also provided child care voluntarily, and secondarily for our son from my own family relatives (my brother) as well as myself as of recently. So that we can both divide the responsibility equally between child care and compensative gainful employment, to be able to provide for the household and utilities, and meet our requirements of financial obligations until our house is sold.
So essentially the days where my brother has covered for us both so we can work, should be reflected as my responsibility in providing child care if I am unable to care for our son if I have to work. (In other words, if my brother wasn't available for the days he watched S1, then it would be my responsibility to be taking off from work to watch him, if anyone else wasn't available to.) That should count towards something.
Since you mention the weeks that I was away for work in XXXX, you previously agreed verbally to provide child care for S1 in absence of your Mom, so that I could meet our financial obligations of the household.
Now you are saying that you want to be "owed" or provided some type of equity or equal recourse of provisional custody on my part, for the two weeks I was in XXXX by holding me accountable to those "owed" weeks. In other words, you agreed verbally that it was ok for me to go away to work for those two weeks. "Because we needed the money to pay the bills." according to you. You are changing the terms and conditions agreed upon verbally after the fact, or "baiting and switching" and not clearly stating the conditions up front. I did not initially agree to any make up days because it was not put to me until thereafter. But in good faith, I have volunteered to make up for 5 nights, in which now currently only 2 are "owed"
You can't have it both ways. Either our expenses get paid, or the bills and mortgage lapse again, and fall into default status, or I continue to take more days off and lose money to provide child care myself, or hire such care until the marital home is sold. Also in all fairness. During all the random days when I am not working due to inclimate weather, I have volunteered to watch our son, to alleviate you and your mom from child care, which I am also losing work compensation as a result. This is also voluntarily and should be acknowledged, as I am watching our son as my own personal initiative during these days, and as a personal favor to you and your Mom. That should also count torwards something if we are discussing custodial equity and fairness as far as timesharing parental responsibilities. I would like you to take all this into consideration. If necessary, I can attempt to provide you with record of all inclimate weather dates, and voluntary absences regarding to watching our son dating back to Jan. 2019, if you can provide me with a accurate record of all FLMA dates of absences, and any absences of your own personal health consultations, from Jan-Mar which I voluntarily took off from work from as well. That would be greatly appreciated if you desire.
I am trying to work with you amicably and equitabily here in all fairness related to child care, and am being met with willfull resistance and unclear terms and conditions that are continually subject to change at any moments notice.
I have attempted numerous times to reconcile with you over our marriage over the last seven months, over all these matters pertaining to child custody, household, finances, work, and divisions of assets labor and belongings for the last seven months, and have been met with nothing but resistance, indifference, argument, conflict of opinion, perception, and point of view. Including the willfulness on your part to leave the marriage, mentally, physically, spiritually, and contractually.
Since it is not in your interest or desire at this time to reconcile, I have to do what I think is best to protect myself, my employment, my assests, my custodial rights for our son, and half of the marital home. I would prefer to handle this privately without the involvement of lawyers, mediators and the family courts, incurring unnecessary burden and financial hardship on both of us, impeding our earning and provisional capacity for the sake of our son, and come some clear terms of agreement in writing. If we cannot come to some reasonable terms of agreement in writing, then I will be forced to seek legal council and just recourse through a mediator or attorney if I feel an fair and reasonable solution cannot be agreed upon. I am putting the ball back in your court, and it is entirely up to you at this moment on you on your willingness to coperate, and co parent with me in future.
How do you want to proceed? Privately? Or Legally?
Not appropriate over email, is my initial reaction. Maybe others will say otherwise, and have a point. But it seems like sitting down as two adult humans you could have a more constructive dialogue.
But all of this "1 day or 2 day owed" stuff comes across to me as just wrong. This is not a game. You aren't keeping score. It isn't a matter of owing days or not owing days. Most of the custody agreements I've seen around here have gone like this:
H: Gets S-Mon &Tue. W Gets Wed-thursday. H gets F-Sun everyother week, W gets F-Sun every other week.
If H or W need to swap days and it works then they can agree to do so. Otherwise if one needs the other to cover a day, and the other agrees, so be it. In the case where one can't cover their scheduled day, and the other is unavailable, other arrangements will need to be made by the parent who needs the coverage.
Most LBSs then view it like this: if she needs a day or more of hers covered, and I am free, GREAT! More kid time for me.
Most of the time these agreements are to protect custody time, not free time.
M(53), W(54),D(19) M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017 Ring and Piecing since March 2018
Oh and if you do send it anyway, please cut this section out entirely:
Quote
I have attempted numerous times to reconcile with you over our marriage over the last seven months, over all these matters pertaining to child custody, household, finances, work, and divisions of assets labor and belongings for the last seven months, and have been met with nothing but resistance, indifference, argument, conflict of opinion, perception, and point of view. Including the willfulness on your part to leave the marriage, mentally, physically, spiritually, and contractually.
Since it is not in your interest or desire at this time to reconcile,
That gets you no where, and isn't about custody.
M(53), W(54),D(19) M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017 Ring and Piecing since March 2018
Steve there is no more constructive dialog to be had. The miscommunication and misunderstandings ARE LITERALLY THAT BAD!!! WE CANNOT AGREE ON ANYTHING! If I said "The sky is blue and water is wet" She will say "No its green, and I disagree." So I decided to emotionally save myself two or three weeks ago, and just not have these conversations face to face, create a boundary, and keep a record by email for accountability. The other thing is I am not the one who is keeping score, she is. I just volunteered to makeup 5 night of time with S1 from being away for work for 2 weeks. She wants me to "owe her" in a sense at her convenience for all the FLMA days she took off to care for her parents, in which I couldn't because I had to work and earn at the time.
IHC, this custody is a legal agreement. I highly recommend a mediator if you can't communicate verbally. Email is going to go the same way the face-to-face has gone.
M(53), W(54),D(19) M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017 Ring and Piecing since March 2018
Do you pay your MIL to watch your son? If not, I wouldn’t go down the path of claiming that the days your brother watches count as your days, because then your wife gets to count all the days her mother watches as her days.
As for FMLA leave, does it matter if she uses it for her father? If she didn’t, wouldn’t MIL have to take that time to care for him, leaving you and your wife needing to watch your son.
Reading your posts, I get the impression you do expect your wife to be responsible for child care and that when you do so, it’s doing her a favor. That might work in marriages with a SAHM, but when both parents work, it’s not an equitable or fair arrangement.
Me: 44 H: 44 Kids: 20, 16, 16, and 10 Together/Married: 22 years H announced he was emotionally detached and considering D: 4/4/16 H announced he is going to try to stay and reconnect: 5/1/16
I'm probably going to look into a mediator and consultation, and at the very least, generate a parental custodial plan myself with terms and conditions on my own, and see if she agrees to it and signs it. She has been insisting for months she wants A Legal Parenting Plan but hasn't taken any initiative whatsoever torwards on her part to initiate it. Or start the legal process, so I left it alone. Its either because she is A.) Lazy. B.) Is dealing with enough on her plate with getting house ready for sale, taking care of parents, etc. But always has the time to go out and GAL herself with whomever she sees. Or C.) Is intimidated by the legal process and also cannot afford it. She mentioned she was taking S1 to FL this summer to a friends timeshare for a week. I emailed her about it a month ago including a minor out of state document/affidavit form which takes 5 minutes to fill out which I still haven't seen yet.
Oh wow, no IHC, do not send that! First of all- wall of text! Second of all, if the two of you are having disagreements on a parenting plan then make a written one that you can both refer to in order to resolve disputes. Reading your response to her I think you are being petty to be honest. Let the incident go and draft up a written proposal that's fair to both of you.
Reading your posts, I get the impression you do expect your wife to be responsible for child care and that when you do so, it’s doing her a favor. That might work in marriages with a SAHM, but when both parents work, it’s not an equitable or fair arrangement.
Yes I agree, that's my impression as well. And no, it's not fair.
Do you pay your MIL to watch your son? If not, I wouldn’t go down the path of claiming that the days your brother watches count as your days, because then your wife gets to count all the days her mother watches as her days.
As for FMLA leave, does it matter if she uses it for her father? If she didn’t, wouldn’t MIL have to take that time to care for him, leaving you and your wife needing to watch your son.
Reading your posts, I get the impression you do expect your wife to be responsible for child care and that when you do so, it’s doing her a favor. That might work in marriages with a SAHM, but when both parents work, it’s not an equitable or fair arrangement.
I see your point about the MIL/Brother thing. My MIL agreed to watch him for the 1st two years out of the kindness of her heart in spending time with her grandchild, but because of her recent health complications, and FIL's dementia in the last month, She can no longer watch S1 going forward which I completely understand plus the added pressure of FIL.. But Rose in other words. Since IHS in Jan. and established informal monthly custodial arrangement. When I take off of work to watch S1 whether it be voluntarily due to inclimate weather, or whether it be to W's circumstances with MIL OR FIL or W's own health conditions. It doesn't count with her. ( Between Feb-Mar. W went for numerous bariatric consultations all the way up to pre-o.p. had 2nd thoughts about it for her own personal reasons, then a month later gaslighted me, and blamed the entire reason why she didn't follow through with bariatric weight loss surgery on me, because HER FEELINGS. felt I wouldn't be able to care for S1 for a month of her anticipated recovery.) This is months before MIL and FIL's health issues and surgeries. I had to take a maybe few half days here and there during that time to pick W up from endoscopy from hospital, and other consultations. Not a huge sacrifice on my part, but also at a time when there was a lot of inclimate weather, snow and rain where I was voluntarily watching S1 to give W and MIL a break. So I am losing money to pay financial obligation two fold. In addition to that, I have taken off additional days over past two months to watch S1 while MIL was going through her issues. But again anything I do is not acknowledged, considered, or is equitible to her.
Everyone on here months ago has told me "Well if she fired you as her H" then it is both of your responsibility to figure out your own arrangements so that is what I did. I left her to figure out hers, and mine my own. But that doesn't count torwards anything with her. In other words she "wants equal suffrage" from me for all the days she had to miss work related to child care due to her parents illnesses as of recently. Then she was unclear about terms of me going away for two weeks, staying "we need the money" but then wanted me to make up for "my nights" that I missed while I was away after the fact. Which I am doing.
I know it sounds like I am,being cold and legalistic, but if this isn't cake eating, then I don't know what is? Maybe Im totally misguided by this forum and the suggestions here, and have only made things worse by following them I wonder sometimes? Its hard to interpret someone's ongoing scenario when your not experiencing all the craziness everyday/month/year for yourself. Maybe I took the whole "cake eating" theory principle here too literally? It seems like all the advice I have taken here dating back to Jan starting with by reclaiming the MBR and other actions has deteriorated relations even further, not that it matters now? Who knows?
Oh wow, no IHC, do not send that! First of all- wall of text! Second of all, if the two of you are having disagreements on a parenting plan then make a written one that you can both refer to in order to resolve disputes. Reading your response to her I think you are being petty to be honest. Let the incident go and draft up a written proposal that's fair to both of you.
I know I am being petty. But it is a reactive petty to her pettiness. AS why do you think I want to pull the trigger on the D so bad? Its gotten so petty around here that even the food, the dishes, and everything in between has to be accounted for. In others words. The other night she offered me a slice of pizza she ordered with her $ I accepred, then, even though fair, just expected me to do the dishes "for payment" Stuff like this has had no clear boundaries for months. If I eat even a slice of cheese, she makes a mention of it. Even though she rarely does, but if she eats anything of mine, I let it go because I am not that petty of a person, but I can very well be if someone wants to play for for tat with me.
But I will take your advice and let the email go, and make up an agreeable parenting plan.
Tit for tat will not get you where you want to be IHC. Kill her with kindness. You can do this without being a doormat. It sounds to me like you are trying to to fight fire with fire. That always results in a bigger fire.
M(53), W(54),D(19) M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017 Ring and Piecing since March 2018
Since IHS in Jan. and established informal monthly custodial arrangement. When I take off of work to watch S1 whether it be voluntarily due to inclimate weather, or whether it be to W's circumstances with MIL OR FIL or W's own health conditions. It doesn't count with her.
I'm just trying to sort out exactly what's happening, you have 50-50 custody? When you say you take time off work to watch S1 due to "W's circumstances with MIL or FIL or W's own health conditions" is that during your custodial time or W's? If it's during W's, my suggestion would be not to do it. She's responsible for watching S1 during her time, and you clearly need to save days so that you can take off to watch him during yours when an emergency arises. That's how separation and divorce work, you're not a team anymore. You've got to split the custody and each of you has to deal with the terms of that however necessary. XW and I did it for years (still do with S). We switched off weekly and were solely responsible for whatever came up during the week. She had her mom to help, I had no one. But I made due.
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Not a huge sacrifice on my part, but also at a time when there was a lot of inclimate weather, snow and rain where I was voluntarily watching S1 to give W and MIL a break. So I am losing money to pay financial obligation two fold. In addition to that, I have taken off additional days over past two months to watch S1 while MIL was going through her issues. But again anything I do is not acknowledged, considered, or is equitible to her.
Well, that's the sort of thing you do in a happy marriage. But in separation, it no longer applies. You need to define the separation agreement on custody and if things happen with S during her week then don't rescue her. Save your days off for YOUR custody.
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Everyone on here months ago has told me "Well if she fired you as her H" then it is both of your responsibility to figure out your own arrangements so that is what I did. I left her to figure out hers, and mine my own. But that doesn't count torwards anything with her.
Curious what you mean by "it doesn't count towards anything with her"? If you're taking days off to care for S during your custodial time, then why does she care? That doesn't help her in any way, that's YOUR responsibility. Whether you take time off or find a sitter or whatever, that's for you to deal with. And when she has S it's for her to deal with. The way you need to look at it is this- when you have S, you are a single parent. You don't parent your child to earn accolades or credit from someone, you do it because it's the right thing to do, it's your responsibility.
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In other words she "wants equal suffrage" from me for all the days she had to miss work related to child care due to her parents illnesses as of recently.
How much time she takes off during her custodial time is not your concern and vice versa. If he's never sick when you have him and always sick when she has him, well that's just bad luck on her part. Sounds like one or both of you are kind of struggling with the concept of "separation". You're still co-parents, but you're not a husband and wife team.
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Then she was unclear about terms of me going away for two weeks, staying "we need the money" but then wanted me to make up for "my nights" that I missed while I was away after the fact. Which I am doing.
OK well that sounds reasonable. If she watched S for you when you were supposed to be watching him, then you do owe her. But don't let her define those terms, agree to it IN ADVANCE. IE, if you're going on a trip then say (I'm supposed to have S on XXX week but I need to make a work trip, can you swap weeks with me? If you can take him on XXX I'll take him on YYY week." Don't just say "I'll make it up to you later" because then she'll want to use your makeup days "on demand" when it's convenient for her. Communication is everything! Be clear and concise!
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I know it sounds like I am,being cold and legalistic, but if this isn't cake eating, then I don't know what is?
This just sounds like frustration and lack of communication both ways rather than cake-eating.
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Its gotten so petty around here that even the food, the dishes, and everything in between has to be accounted for. In others words. The other night she offered me a slice of pizza she ordered with her $ I accepred, then, even though fair, just expected me to do the dishes "for payment"
Do you think that's unreasonable? W invited me to Thanksgiving at her mom's. It was her, her mom, me and our 3 kids. I did ALL the dishes, pots pans and silverware all by hand as a "thank you" for the meal. It's really no big deal. I think you're both trapped in this cycle of thinking you're being unfairly treated by the other, so you look for conspiracies everywhere. You know how we all preach to "take the moral high road", try and think about what that means in your sitch. You need to be the beacon, the rock, the light house NO MATTER HOW YOUR W BEHAVES!
Tit for tat will not get you where you want to be IHC. Kill her with kindness. You can do this without being a doormat. It sounds to me like you are trying to to fight fire with fire. That always results in a bigger fire.
Steve has the ability to say the same thing as me in 1/10th the words
Tit for tat will not get you where you want to be IHC. Kill her with kindness. You can do this without being a doormat. It sounds to me like you are trying to to fight fire with fire. That always results in a bigger fire.
Steve has the ability to say the same thing as me in 1/10th the words
Haha.. Ok. I just had a convo with the W about any misunderstandings. I interpreted her email like she wanted me to owe her something because she took off more days than me. Its clarified, handled, and resolved. I expressed my thoughts, she expressed hers, and although very different and mon agreeable, we agreed I don't need documentation from her for her FLMA days, this there is no positive outcome in getting legalistic, or getting tit for tat.
I really need to get over myself and my defensiveness and petty reactivity to potentially provoking situations when I feel threatened. Its a total waste of my time and energy that I xan be doing more productive things with. I am glad I held that email back. I can be calm during these situations, but very matter of fact. Im always waiting to get screwed because its what I have experienced somewhat throughout most of my life. It makes me very adamant and protective around those I no longer fully trust. Especially when it comes to employment, money, children etc...I've also seen my brother go through extremely volatile custodial battles and divorce for 16 years. So it has shaped me and my attitude to fight if necessary. Im still going to draw up a parenting plan.
Thanks guys for listening and your time and input.
Please listen to this!!! I have been following this person's ministry for 3 years. The parallels of this gentlemen's seperation experience and everyone else's sich are uncanny, and extremely remarkable. It also may make you get yourself right with God and Jesus Christ. It is a long series, but worthwhile.
Last edited by Cadet; 06/28/1904:36 PM. Reason: Start a new thread message
What are my short-term goals? Time with my kids, and self-improvement. Money doesn't matter, reconciliation doesn't matter, whether my W is angry or happy or sad or upset doesn't matter.
This is good Unichen. Now ask yourself how moving out of the house and having an S that puts you in extended limbo helps with this.
Originally Posted by unchien
- I am not going to provide a "safety plan".
Don't you think the S is a safety plan that gives her time to plan her next move?
Originally Posted by LB55
[quote=unchien]It is tricky.
And I have a backseat driver yanking the steering wheel hard in one direction.
Stop the car. open door. Exit car. Problem Solved!
^^^^^This, especially step 1. Stop the car. You are driving all over the place and allowing the backseat driver to steer. Stop the car, think about where you want to go, set boundaries with the backseat driver and then start driving. Uni I think you would appreciate this.
Sometimes you can't help but ask yourself who is the fool? The one whose side seat driving, trying to grab and jerk the steering wheel, trying to crash the vehicle with you and the children in it, who's making all of the demands based all based on their personal feelings? Or is the person driving the fool? For allowing that side seat driver in the car in the first place, when are not acting rational in the first place? But yet they project and accuse us of it? I have to ask God sometimes on days like today where all I read is scripture, and all I want to do is trust in Jesus. Im enjoying putting up a lot of scripture up on my FB page continuously as of lately. W will cherry pick and like the ones that are of her narrative to walk away, find herself and her confidence.(More worldy influences, desires, and influences by the SELF HELP SELF DECEPTION COMMUNITY.) But who am I to judge, and tell someone how to live?) its her life, and I am just slow to speak and quick to listen. She puts up a ton of self help comments and quotes on FB that are directly meant not as an attack, but to support the whole "walk away" narrative just for me. Either that or its for attention from people in her friends group. (Other people have validated that they were digs meant for me.) I just ignore it like I have the past 8 months, and I put my scripture up.
Last night after having a nice discussion about scripture which she inquired to me about. She first imposed that maybe I should explore ministry since I am currently so passionate about it. She has always been supportive of most of my hobbies and pursuits, but for the express purpose of turning it into work or monetary means for her to benefit from it, as well as myself, and not just for my own pleasure. I've always worked to just work, that's my life and I'm ok with it. My passions I've never made my work, unless I choose to do so. She always wants to find her passions, and make it work for herself. She associates her self worth on finding her passions, and making it a job. But she changes her mind like the wind, and lacks commitment. So just before all this, she confirmed and said what I was thinking regarding the scripture conversation, without me having to even say it to her what I have learned. She said that she was getting the temptations to seek out a few psychic mediums and a tarot reading to see how her life was going to turn out since she is overloaded with marital issues, job issues, house issues, parent health issues, Self issues, etc. (which btw now she wants to buy me out, and keep the house to sell it next year since the projects aren't progressing, and my BIL's have taken it over.) Anyway she came to her senses in not giving into the psychic reading temptations, because even though she has been pulled to it in the past she stated she felt it was wrong.
Anyway she gaslighted me again in the middle of our scripture discussion, when I simply was stating what I was learning, after she said her piece and I listened intently for 30 minutes. She felt she was being talked down to again just by the words that I used, when all I simply said was scripture states God requires obedience and consideration to his words to learn the real truth and not be deceived by the world. Again she made a nice discussion into an "its all about me, and how I feel" session. (People think I'm kidding when I say I'm not allowed to have any feelings about anything, that it is all about her, but I know people here have experienced the same phenomenon.) I have heard so many times that "I'm scary" just by having a presence, or standing up for what I believe in all discussions and our marriage sometimes. She is aware that always mean well and thinks never have ill intentions, but she doesn't like the way I say things with my own words sometimes or the way I come across. ( I don't want to invalidate this as I do want to work on it.) We both agreed that if we were to be video taped it would be interesting in observing and correcting. (Just me of course not her, because the behaviorist behaviors are always perfect.) She interestingly turned her own video tape comment into, "well maybe not, that I would prefer to video tape our interactions not to learn from it, but to use it against her." I tried to politely challenge her and her feelings on all of this and her defensiveness, not to invalidate her feelings, but if she knows I mean well, and an well intended, then why is she so sensitive and easily offended? If I say "Im really sorry you feel that way those are not my intentions." I'm dismissive and condescending. If I just say "Okay" and agree with her. Im dismissive and stand offish. If you challenge them on their deluded thought, you are the one who is flipping the script and turning it around on them. But if a therapist does it, its ok because they are trusted mental health professionals. But if you offer you own oppinion when asked for it, you are again accused of flipping things around. Don't offer your feelings up about being gas lighted, and point it out to them, they wont have a shred of humility to acknowledge it, acknowledge you, or apologise for it. But YOU ARE REQUIRED TO VALIDATE ABD ACKNOWLEDGE THEIRS. I asked her. (More like challenged her) "Do you think God wants you to be happy by seeking out worldy your own desires, or does God want you to find your happiness in him, and be thankful for his provisions for his purpose for you?" Ill let you guys guess which one she chose for an answer, and in a very rebellious, certain, and arrogant demeanor. Oh the arrogance. She denies she has unforgiveness in her heart.
I politely asked her again, what is she rebelling against? She said she is not rebelling, she is standing up for herself. So I politely challenged again. What are you standing up for? Do you feel attacked? Why always the defensive posture? Are you sensitive to me being passionate about something and taking it as aggression? She couldn't answer. But does feel I am aggressive at times. I challenged her again about if God wants her to find her purpose, or if she is supposed to seek out God's purpose? (See the difference) Last week She attacked my manhood for the second time, I let it roll off my back, and I brought it up again a week later, that it was ubnecessary and hurtful. She didn't remember it. But apologized. Last week I was sitting in the stairwell looking up something on my phone in the middle of yet another argument. She wanted to get by, I didn't want to move, but allowed her to pass by me and wasn't stopping her after she asked to get by. That's considered aggressive to her. (You can't write this level of insanity.) Just your presence sometimes reuplses them and makes them want to recoil. You could stop talking to them all together for 4 months on IHS, avoid them, and be scare, and they still want to throw you out or move out for their space away from you. She still feels me moving back into the MBR 5 months ago was inconsiderate and demeaning. I said why? From a respectful stand point, I'm not the one wanting to leave the M. You are.
All this turned into yet another blowout and R talk about her now again changing plans. She wants the house/she doesn't want the house/she wants me to move out by Aug./she is keeping her job, she isn't keeping her job, and wants to work from home...She wants to buy me out now, and sell later. (Don't call them out on flip flopping, they will project it back onto you to suit their narrative again.) All this lead to several attorney consultations discussions. I told her I need to speak to an attorney just for consultation for parental, custodial, and asset/real estate reasons. I stated I would try to have one lined up in the next two week, and get back to her. I asked if she was planning on doing the same? I probed a little to see who she intended to use just to make sure there was no conflict of interest in case either one of us did ever decide to retain. She obviously wanted to keep that a secret ,but just mentioned the town of where the attorney is that she is considering. Yesterday I started looking for L for consultation. I can't being myself to do it, but know that I should to legally explore my rights. I made it clear that I am not going anywhere, or moving or plan on moving anywhere, until check is in hand for buyout, or until my "alleged attorney" consults with me more about parental rights. I made it clear to her thus is not to hurt her, I am not digging in my heels and being vindictive or stubborn, I am protecting my parental rights with our S1. At first I agreed that we would both consult one to figure out how property asset rights and parental rights intertwine. She wants commitment from me that I either buy her out and she moves out, or she buys me out and I move out. She wants to know what my plan is. I don't intend to swing the mortgage by myself or buy her out or consider buying her out. But I'm not moving until she offers me a concrete plan on what she wants to do, not the other way around, even though she demands it of me. ( I'm wondering if she thinks she is going to quit her job again, file for CS, stat home with S1, and refi, and swing the whole mort until next Mar when she wants to put the house on the market now since she misses the prime window. She wants me to move to the basement again too. Absolutely not. She s not going to push me around or out of the house without equitible and fair compensation. She is a total oxy moron, sell, stay, leave, go, no you go. Stay at job, leave job, stay job, find different job. She s all over the map.
Last week we agreed to do MC explicitly for communication reasons and improvements. Not to work on the M. That was a nice chat. We even recorded the conversation and did some tellback/feedback to make sure there weren't any misunderstandings. That's not going to happen now, due to her mental health insurance not wanting to cover me as a secondary because I have my own primary insurance, but my deductibles on my mental health are do high, I can't afford it. So Im losing IC appointments, and there goes any chance at MC anyway.
Oh. Unichen. She wants me to agree to an informal plan which she has handwritten (I have a feeling this was suggested her IC.) that if I ever get overwhelmed or feel suicidal (just because it has come up in the past with me over life stresses.) (And also her uncle and friend from H.S. commited suicide.) To call her, or if I need a break from S1 or a day to recoup from depressive thoughts, to have a back up plan, or to call her. She will take him. I could never do it, and I don't even think about it anymore. All this M stress has finally made me a rock in Christ , of strength and character. But I wonder if "her feelings" will ever be used against me.
Phone behavior has significantly increased from much overuse to obsessive. She is constantly on her phone, and I mean obsessively, bedroom, bathroom, car, kitchen, front stoop back stoop, living room, talking to all kinds of people, constantly hiding things, and a lot of other secretive behaviors. Still don't know if OM is in picture, don't care, but her whole contact list gets more attention in a day then I get in 5 months. Once in a while we do somewhat nice things for each other, pick up food here and there, clean up a few messes, etc.
To end this long thread, after 10 months of my mind compulsively going on about the M. Last week I took a renewed interest in scripture, the bible, and devoting myself to Christ and his word and deeds. Back to what I said in the beginning to Uni. I know most of you think I am being a weak fool, but after our convo about the plans for the house. I told my W. I am laying down my weapons and my sword. I am not going to fight with her anymore, and I don't wish to. If she wants out. I won't stop her. I won't agree to it. I don't condone it. I am standing for the marriage and our family. I am standing for it as my covenant to God, and has more to do with Christ than with her. If she needs to get away from me, then she needs to do what she needs to do, but I won't agree with it or pursue divorce or leaving the house for now. If she wants seperation/divorce/her own space, freedom, independence happiness or whatever etc. It's all on her. Her choice, her actions, her will. I am not contributing to it to our division in any way anymore. I will not fight with her.vI know I sound like a martyr but, she is going to have to live with it on her conscience and soul, and be willing to take the marriage, the house, and S1 away from me to gain her freedom, independence or whatever. I told her if I am not any more clearer in my intentions, then let me make it clear. I put my wedding ring back on in front of her (not for effect) and said I'm standing for our marriage, our home, and our family, and its not coming off!!! I won't accept anything else less than reconciliation, and if she can't understand my spiritual and religious convictions, and what my true intentions are, then that's on her, and with that, I am letting her go. I can't have the contribution to division, or to worldly legalities or desires or passions or this toxic marriage on my mind or on my soul anymore. She is free to choose as she wishes. I am putting Jesus Christ, the Gospel's word and the bible first as a priority above her and all else. If that means I have to be quiet all the time to mind my tounge and my heart, then I will. I have a few habitual sins I have to kick with the help of the Holy Spirit. If God has to use me to suffer through all of this to draw closer to Jesus, remain more obedient, to refine me, or to use her deceptions of self, or deceived mind to strengthen me, or if I have to lose it all to save my mind and my soul as well as hers than so be it. I pray she comes to repentance. I pray she stops being deceived. I pray I become more devoted and kick some of my sins and change with Jesus's help because I can't do it on my own, and I'm tired of turning to man for wisdom on life in a broken world, that is going to fall away anyway. I pray that I develop more humility and patience in time. I pray she does too. I pray that she find the real truth and real happiness, and I pray that God helps her and her family through all her struggles. Back to my mention to Uni's sich. Since W is still on the WAW Express. Sometimes I wonder if I am the fool for wanting to willingly endure all this? Then I remind myself, even though I am an imperfect wretched sinner. There is no fool in Jesus Christ and clutching to him an his word and his commands. That is the only way I am ever going to change, the only real way I am ever going to DB and the only way I am ever going to GAL and save myself without selfishness. WAW will most likely leave me, wreck the marriage, take the house, and divide the family. But I hope someday God uses it for his glory which ever way it goes. I am done fearing the inevitable of potentially unequally yoked couples. My mind and anxiety over it is finished. I am done fearing all of it.
Man this must be my day to dispense 2x4's. Sometimes I log on here and read and just wonder how everything could be going so pear-shaped, it's like people abandon the most basic rules of DB'ing and proceed to do whatever they want instead, which is almost always the WRONG thing to do. Anyway here we go:
Originally Posted by IHCLACS
She puts up a ton of self help comments and quotes on FB that are directly meant not as an attack, but to support the whole "walk away" narrative just for me. Either that or its for attention from people in her friends group. (Other people have validated that they were digs meant for me.) I just ignore it like I have the past 8 months, and I put my scripture up.
That's a weird little War of the Roses thing going on. Very passive/aggressive by both of you. If you're going to post scripture then how about posting uplifting passages that have nothing to do with marriage and relationships. THAT would tell her you are letting go, which is exactly the message you want to send her.
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(People think I'm kidding when I say I'm not allowed to have any feelings about anything, that it is all about her, but I know people here have experienced the same phenomenon.)
I guess you mean people IRL and not here, because we all know this is standard for a WAS. And not only that, but we talk about not sharing your feelings with a WAS because she doesn't care. You listen and validate, that's it.
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She is aware that always mean well and thinks never have ill intentions, but she doesn't like the way I say things with my own words sometimes or the way I come across.
You shouldn't be saying anything around her. Just listen and validate. Anything more is just ammo she will use against you.
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I tried to politely challenge her and her feelings on all of this and her defensiveness, not to invalidate her feelings, but if she knows I mean well, and an well intended, then why is she so sensitive and easily offended?
Because she's a WAS. Don't challenge her. Because that is exactly what you said it's not- invalidating. YOU know you mean well, YOU know it's well intended, YOU HAVE NO IDEA WHAT SHE KNOWS. You are fooling yourself if you think you do. Listen and validate, period.
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If I say "Im really sorry you feel that way those are not my intentions." I'm dismissive and condescending.
First part (bolded) is validation, second part IS dismissive.
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If I just say "Okay" and agree with her. Im dismissive and stand offish.
But a one ward crap response like that IS dismissive!
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If you challenge them on their deluded thought, you are the one who is flipping the script and turning it around on them.
What are you gaining by constantly challenging her? That's a bad idea in a healthy relationship. It's the nuclear option in an unhealthy relationship.
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But if you offer you own oppinion when asked for it, you are again accused of flipping things around. Don't offer your feelings up about being gas lighted, and point it out to them, they wont have a shred of humility to acknowledge it, acknowledge you, or apologise for it. But YOU ARE REQUIRED TO VALIDATE ABD ACKNOWLEDGE THEIRS.
So what? IH, you strike me as someone who loves to hear himself talk and loves to force his opinion on others whether they want it or not. That is TOXIC to a relationship. It also sounds like you have a serious case of NGS, you've got to be constantly acknowledged and validated to feel valued. If you acknowledge or validate someone else you immediately want it reciprocated. You've got to get over that. Be the man. What do I mean by that? It means you offer support, validation, security while expecting NONE in return. It means you find your value and self-worth from within instead of from others. It means you have ZERO EXPECTATIONS from others, that you DO NOT take offense to someone challenging you, or not complimenting you, or not paying enough attention to you or stroking your ego. Radiate confidence and self-respect. Be the rock.
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I asked her. (More like challenged her)
This has really got to stop.
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Ill let you guys guess which one she chose for an answer, and in a very rebellious, certain, and arrogant demeanor. Oh the arrogance. She denies she has unforgiveness in her heart.
You don't know what's in her heart. You need a big slice of humble pie, you are coming off as VERY sanctimonious.
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I politely asked her again, what is she rebelling against? She said she is not rebelling, she is standing up for herself. So I politely challenged again. What are you standing up for? Do you feel attacked? Why always the defensive posture? Are you sensitive to me being passionate about something and taking it as aggression? She couldn't answer.
You're attacking her. If you want any hope of saving your marriage then please stop. Listen and validate, nothing more. Did Jesus cross-examine the prostitute that the Pharisees brought before him? Did he condemn her? If Jesus was not willing to condemn a prostitute, why are you so willing and eager to condemn your own wife?
Sit quietly, the answers will reveal themselves when you least expect them to. The past is gone, the present is a gift and you need to focus on today, allow the future to reveal itself when it is ready.
