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Hi IHCLACS

I read that article. As a woman, and a feminist, and as someone who was the breadwinner for our family while my H was a SAHD (but the two of us otherwise pretty much conform to 'Mars and Venus' type stereotypes in our emotional lives and ways of doing relationships) it doesn't really chime with my experience. All this talk of economy and marketplace might be useful when looking at the ways people live their economic lives, and yes, marriage is in part a social and economic arrangement.

But when it comes to thinking about the ways that two individuals, both of them shaped by a society that has stereotyped views of both men and women that harm both men and women and limit their freedoms to be who they really are, I think it's a really quite superficial view.

It doesn't really matter, does it, if someone has a theory that most women are driven to marriage because of the status it apparently offers, and that most women drive divorce because they've been culturally influenced by books and articles saying that divorce will make them happy? What matters is the way your own shortcomings have damage your marriage, the way your wife's shortcomings have damaged your marriage, and what you do about yourself from here on out.

I believe most humans get into partnerships because they want connection. I also believe most women are as different from each other as most men are. And I believe that there is no true intimacy without freedom - neither party acting dishonestly or manipulatively - and without equality.


Last edited by AlisonUK; 06/17/19 10:55 AM.
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If you don't want to be thought of as misogynistic, posting a link to an article like that is not helping you achieve your goal.

You seem to invest a lot of energy in trying to get the people on the board to agree with you that you are a victim of feminism and societal change. I get that it's easier in the short term to blame your situation on society, but I don't think it's going to help you in the long run.

You'll be much better off if you channel that energy into improving yourself and your relationship skills.


Me: 44
H: 44
Kids: 20, 16, 16, and 10
Together/Married: 22 years
H announced he was emotionally detached and considering D: 4/4/16
H announced he is going to try to stay and reconnect: 5/1/16
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Originally Posted by Rose888
I get that it's easier in the short term to blame your situation on society, but I don't think it's going to help you in the long run.

You'll be much better off if you channel that energy into improving yourself and your relationship skills.


I've had this experience too. I didn't blame my problems on the great feminist conspiracy, but I did blame a lot of my own behaviour, my bad marriage, the troubles with my children and my health and wider family on class. The thing is - it is true - working class families in the UK are significantly disadvantaged in lots of ways and the outcomes for their working lives, marriages, children, mental and physical health are much worse. So perhaps there was some truth in my beliefs. Perhaps a lot of truth.

But none of that changed anything about my situation or how I felt about it. The only thing that did (and it has been a long slow process for me) is looking inwards then taking appropriate action. Not action to change the world, to start the socialist utopia, to dismantle the patriarchy (though it would be nice to do a couple of those things too!!) but to look closely at the micro-interactions in my own home, family and workplace and to take action to make sure I was acting healthily and setting boundaries that meant I would only accept healthy behaviour from others.

Looking outwards and trying to change society for the better is a brilliant ambition. Unless it's a way to deflect your individual responsibility. Then it keeps you stuck as a victim. None of your theories about high value women or anti-marriage culture are going to make you into a better husband or your wife into someone who wants you.

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Originally Posted by IHCLACS
This is especially sums up what I've been trying to say on here for weeks, without being labeled as a misogynist, behind my previous hurt and frustration how the sexes think and love differently in today's western society. The societal, mortal psychological, emotional, and social differences in what is fueling the high divorce rates today. You can respectfully agree or disagree with it but it's worth the read if anyone is interested? Its a good article.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/fabiusmaximus.com/2018/11/15/women-still-need-mens-investment/amp/

Hope everyone had a Happy Father's Day.


Didn't read it all. IHC obviously a lot of things have influenced the state of marriage in Western society. I don't really want to get into the politics of all of that, especially since a more traditional view of the issue is viewed as politically incorrect. I do not agree that your researching these things makes you a misogynist. That is an ugly word that is thrown around way too easily today. But I do agree with others that laying the blame for the failure of your marriage solely at the feet of this type of thing is short-sighted. And sets you up for failure in the future.

The truth is, those pressures may or may not have contributed. Maybe you two were a bad match from the beginning. Maybe you didn't love her as deeply as you should, and therefore your bad behavior caused it. Many men marry women to "lock in exclusive sex", only to be unhappily married years later. Only you know the truth, and even then you may need serious IC to get to the real truth.

Regardless, not working on it and must moving on and filing for D is a cop out on the WAS's part. One expert I've read since my latest sitch put it this one: Instead of trying to find someone to love, love the one you found.

One thing that was interesting in that was the chart on remarriage. I read another anti-divorce expert that specialized in why women cheat. (Men cheat too, but this particular female author was concentrated on the fact that women initiate most Ds and that they usually have moved on with someone new before doing so). She wrote a book on the subject from the point-of-view of consultation she did with a woman that had BD'd her H, asked him to leave the house, and was engaged in a torrid affair with a younger man. One of her points to this woman was that eventually her H was going to give up, move on, and remarry. She asked this cheater if she was ready to see her H do that. She was not. (The mindset of the WW!) The author pointed out to her that 2nd marriages have an even higher D rate, and that it is easier for divorced men to remarry than it is for divorced women.

Of course the book ended with her not wanting to end the affair, but also not wanting to completely cut her H lose. The wayward is the most selfish creature on the planet!

Last edited by Steve85; 06/18/19 12:38 PM.

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I am getting into informal child custody debates this morning over email.

I haven't sent out my response as of yet, and wanted everyone to review it first. So 2x4's are welcome if necessary. I need to know if I am being ridiculous or if W is, and I am just legally CMOA for future encounters. I am literally typing all this up while silently sitting right in front of W and S1 on couch with nothing being said other than S1. Names and emails
have been omitted.

Here is what started it:

W: Just a reminder that xxx and xxx are coming to finish some house projects on Saturday. I know you said you will be out for the day to help xxxxx and xxxx move, so this is just a courtesy reminder.

H: Ok thanks for the reminder.

H: Can we agree that since I voluntarily took off work yesterday to care for S1, that it can be applied to one of the make up days that I owe from working away from home previous weeks? Which puts the days owed to one?

W: Daytime childcare has not been a part of our custodial agreement. That time has been specifically in regard to evenings and weekends. If it were, I would be owed much more than just two days! I have a list of all the days I've had to stay home with S1 due to no childcare, many of them unpaid. I can send you all of those dates if you would like to see them. So to answer your question, no, yesterday does not count towards the makeup two days from you.

( Anticipated Response)
H: If you want to deny that my voluntary choice to stay home on June 19th with our son, due to him being ill, and not count it torwards my nightly schedule time "owed" for working away several weeks ago. That's fine. I can understand that, but I don't have to agree with it.

I will agree that daytime childcare has not been a part of our tentative unofficial custodial agreement schedule. It looks like I am going to have to bear the burden of creating an official and legally binding parenting plan (Like I said I would.) and create clear terms and conditions that we both agree upon with clearer conditions, times, schedules, etc.

In all fairness of interests to both parties. Your mom has been the designated child care provider during our work hours in watching our son, up until recently due to her health complications and surgeries.

Since your Mom and Dad are retired, and your Mom is the designated primary child care provider currently during working hours as agreed between us. When you are not on summer vacation as per you're profession as a Behavioral Specialist for XXX , which revolves around the school calendar year, you have voluntarily taken custodial responsibility for our son revolving around normal working hours during those vacation months. This has been taken into consideration.

Unfortunately my profession as a XXXX does not afford 2.5 months of vacation whether paid or unpaid, and revolves around typical normal business construction hours on an annual basis.

I also understand your considerable FLMA time off recently from work to care for ill family members also includes your father who has dementia. While having no recourse or compensation from your employer, and also having to bear the personal burden of your time related to child care for our son, I understand this is a considerable exertion of time and expense personally. But in all equitible fairness. Some of your FLMA absences have to do with your Father, and some have to do with your Mother.

Whether your FLMA days of absence be due to your Mom's unavailability to watch our son due to her own personal health complications, or due to your Mom being unavailable to watch our son due to you're Dad's Dr's appointments and his dementia.  It is reasonably arguable that your FLMA days of absence are not applicable related to child care regarding your Father's Dr's appointments, unless your Mom was incapacitated, and or unavailable to care for you're Father, and our son simultaneously during said days of your FMLA leave of absence.

In my opinion. Your days missed having to do with your Father's Dr's appointments does not accurately reflect torwards your equitable and custodial "owed" time off,  of myself, to provide make up days of child care, since your Father is not the designated primary child care provider during our work hours. You're FLMA time off should only be applicable torwards your Mother's unavailability to provide child care, and should reflect torwards days "owed"

However If you can substantiate further documentation which FLMA days were applicable torwards your Mother's care, and which ones were applicable torwards your Father's care, it may be helpful in possibly calculating which days were "owed" either due to you're Mother being unavailable to watch our son, on specific dates while she was in good health at time, due to Father's Dr's appointments.
I will take that into consideration as well.

Because I currently posses no official record of FLMA days which were used by you, and cannot distinguish the difference which FLMA days were used because your Mom's unavailability due to her own health complications, and which FLMA days were used torwards your Father's Dr's appointments when your Mom was healthy and capable of watching S1. It is difficult to determine what is considerably and reasonably fair. I would like accurate record of such to make that determination.

It is also arguable from my point of view, that I have also provided child care voluntarily, and secondarily for our son from my own family relatives (my brother) as well as myself as of recently. So that we can both divide the responsibility equally between child care and compensative gainful employment, to be able to provide for the household and utilities, and meet our requirements of financial obligations until our house is sold.

So essentially the days where my brother has covered for us both so we can work, should be reflected as my responsibility in providing child care if I am unable to care for our son if I have to work. (In other words, if my brother wasn't available for the days he watched S1, then it would be my responsibility to be taking off from work to watch him, if anyone else wasn't available to.) That should count towards something.

Since you mention the weeks that I was away for work in XXXX,  you previously agreed verbally to provide child care for S1 in absence of your Mom, so that I could meet our financial obligations of the household.

Now you are saying that you want to be "owed" or provided some type of equity or equal recourse of provisional custody on my part, for the two weeks I was in XXXX by holding me accountable to those "owed" weeks. In other words, you agreed verbally that it was ok for me to go away to work for those two weeks. "Because we needed the money to pay the bills." according to you. You are changing the terms and conditions agreed upon verbally after the fact, or "baiting and switching"  and not clearly stating the conditions up front. I did not initially agree to any make up days because it was not put to me until thereafter. But in good faith, I have volunteered to make up for 5 nights, in which now currently only 2 are "owed"

You can't have it both ways. Either our expenses get paid, or the bills and mortgage lapse again, and fall into default status, or I continue to take more days off and lose money to provide child care myself, or hire such care until the marital home is sold. Also in all fairness. During all the random days when I am not working due to inclimate weather, I have volunteered to watch our son, to alleviate you and your mom from child care, which I am also losing work compensation as a result. This is also voluntarily and should be acknowledged,  as I am watching our son as my own personal initiative during these days, and as a personal favor to you and your Mom. That should also count torwards something if we are discussing custodial equity and fairness as far as timesharing parental responsibilities. I would like you to take all this into consideration. If necessary, I can attempt to provide you with record of all inclimate weather dates, and voluntary absences regarding to watching our son dating back to Jan. 2019, if you can provide me with a accurate record of all FLMA dates of absences, and any absences of your own personal health consultations, from Jan-Mar  which I voluntarily took off from work from as well. That would be greatly appreciated if you desire.

I am trying to work with you amicably and equitabily here in all fairness related to child care, and am being met with willfull resistance and unclear terms and conditions that are continually subject to change at any moments notice.

I have attempted numerous times to reconcile with you over our marriage over the last seven months, over all these matters pertaining to child custody, household, finances, work, and divisions of assets labor and belongings for the last seven months, and have been met with nothing but resistance, indifference, argument, conflict of opinion, perception, and point of view. Including the willfulness on your part to leave the marriage, mentally,  physically, spiritually, and contractually.

Since it is not in your interest or desire at this time to reconcile, I have to do what I think is best to protect myself, my employment, my assests, my custodial rights for our son, and half of the marital home. I would prefer to handle this privately without the involvement of lawyers, mediators and the family courts, incurring unnecessary burden and financial hardship on both of us, impeding our earning and provisional capacity for the sake of our son, and come some clear terms of agreement in writing. If we cannot come to some  reasonable terms of agreement in writing, then I will be forced to seek legal council and just recourse through a mediator or attorney if I feel an fair and reasonable solution cannot be agreed upon. I am putting the ball back in your court, and it is entirely up to you at this moment on you on your willingness to coperate, and co parent with me in future.

How do you want to proceed? Privately? Or Legally?

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Not appropriate over email, is my initial reaction. Maybe others will say otherwise, and have a point. But it seems like sitting down as two adult humans you could have a more constructive dialogue.

But all of this "1 day or 2 day owed" stuff comes across to me as just wrong. This is not a game. You aren't keeping score. It isn't a matter of owing days or not owing days. Most of the custody agreements I've seen around here have gone like this:

H: Gets S-Mon &Tue. W Gets Wed-thursday. H gets F-Sun everyother week, W gets F-Sun every other week.

If H or W need to swap days and it works then they can agree to do so. Otherwise if one needs the other to cover a day, and the other agrees, so be it. In the case where one can't cover their scheduled day, and the other is unavailable, other arrangements will need to be made by the parent who needs the coverage.

Most LBSs then view it like this: if she needs a day or more of hers covered, and I am free, GREAT! More kid time for me.

Most of the time these agreements are to protect custody time, not free time.


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Oh and if you do send it anyway, please cut this section out entirely:

Quote
I have attempted numerous times to reconcile with you over our marriage over the last seven months, over all these matters pertaining to child custody, household, finances, work, and divisions of assets labor and belongings for the last seven months, and have been met with nothing but resistance, indifference, argument, conflict of opinion, perception, and point of view. Including the willfulness on your part to leave the marriage, mentally, physically, spiritually, and contractually.

Since it is not in your interest or desire at this time to reconcile,


That gets you no where, and isn't about custody.


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^^^ Steve I was figuring this part would be unnecessary given current sich. I will commit it and TCB. Thanks.

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Steve there is no more constructive dialog to be had. The miscommunication and misunderstandings ARE LITERALLY THAT BAD!!! WE CANNOT AGREE ON ANYTHING! If I said "The sky is blue and water is wet" She will say "No its green, and I disagree." So I decided to emotionally save myself two or three weeks ago, and just not have these conversations face to face, create a boundary, and keep a record by email for accountability. The other thing is I am not the one who is keeping score, she is. I just volunteered to makeup 5 night of time with S1 from being away for work for 2 weeks. She wants me to "owe her" in a sense at her convenience for all the FLMA days she took off to care for her parents, in which I couldn't because I had to work and earn at the time.

Last edited by IHCLACS; 06/21/19 04:58 PM.
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IHC, this custody is a legal agreement. I highly recommend a mediator if you can't communicate verbally. Email is going to go the same way the face-to-face has gone.


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