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04/25 Journaling from an defensive posture but confidant side in my abilities and worth. (Its funny how you can easily take your WAS and sich off your mind when you take a defensive stance, let go, and look after yourself.)

W and I had a discussion the other last night about S1, date/weekend swaps last night. She wants me and her to get together with all of our mothers for Mother's Day which falls on my weekend with S1. I told her I would have to think about it. I agreed that whether we do Mother's Day together or separate, S1 will spend time with her, despite it being my weekend. We planned our scheduling into June well into Father's day which is also my weekend with S1. I was considering having him for the whole weekend for Father's Day, but she was in disagreement with it even though its Fathers Day and my weekend again with S1. So I basically left it tentative and open for discussion as FD nears.

I was considering doing Mother's Day together, but after mediation/child custody/house sale discussion last night. I might decide to keep the holidays separate still. Special celebrations I'll put my differences aside and attend. So we hammered out a schedule for the next month and a half, she invited me on a vacation or two.

So W has scheduled a Realtor for potential improvements and market value evaluation for this Sun. The last time we had this discussion she got really upset, started crying, and getting mildly hysterical, with the crocodile tears, because she believes in her mind that I'm holding her hostage to the house and mortgage, I'm not going to go along with it and sign any documents pertaining to the sale of the home. She just wants to sell it, dump the mortgage, pay off her outstanding debts, get whatever profit from house sale, split it, and start a new. She's going to be bouncing back and forth living at MIL new apartment, and their weekend trailer. Although I do encourage her and support her chasing all of her hopes and dreams, I am curious to see how reality plays out with all of these bucket list things of hers, and whether she's going to achieve them, or get a hard dose of the real world?

I have had to explain to her at least 15 times now. That I will accommodate her by finishing the house projects, moving my stuff into storage, and preparing for both of us to live separately else where outside the MH, and securing a place for myself and S1 after sale. But I will not initiate or help with the sale process other than review and closing. It is not my choice to leave the M, or my best interest to leave the M home on her timeline or agenda, unless I'm forced to. (Which I am because I probably cannot refinance, or swing the full mortgage on my own.
I also made a point to her that half the marital property is hers and half the marital property is mine. That I am the one that has vested all of my own money on the improvements over the last seven years. We have recently agreed to split the cost of materials needed to finish the open-ended and finishing touches of the projects.

Its not my job to do the leg work for her or make it easier for her. She can figure it out for herself. If she needs anything from me to review and sign, I will review it, and if I feel after reviewing it, we agree it is in both our best interest, I will sign it to finalize sale.

She says to me: "So as long as she does all the leg work, and as long as I get my share of the profit split for doing absolutely nothing and not being involved in the process." I just validated: "I'm sorry you feel that way and that we see things differently." She thinks I'm trying to be punitive. So I validated again: "I'm sorry you feel that way. I'm not trying to be punitive. You are getting what you want either way. How am I interfering in any way, and how am I not doing my part to accomdate you in attaining your goal?

It is not my decision to sell, or leave the M Or MH. That it isnt fair to me that I'm forced to relocate, and go through the troubles of moving and securing a new place when I like it here, and it serves our S1 better, while she gets to go off and start a whole new life with a fresh start, while also taking half the profits if we make any from the sale.

I made this very clear and non-negotiable to her. So I am essestialy setting her free, but I'm only going to do what's required.

She also wants to quit her current job as a special needs teacher behavioral specialist by this June, which she makes about $63 K annually with amazing health insurance as a Behaviorist. She wants to work from home remotely as a Remote Health Coach Nutrition Specialist/startup business to be home with S1. Average median is $48k. This is something that she does have a little bit of training from online weight loss modules. But has absolutely no real world experience in or experience in running a 1099 or independant business.

She is now expressing interest in Child custody, parenting plans and child support. But a few months ago, she wasn't interest in going the legal route, or retaining a L, but was considering a mediator with everything. I'm pretty sure she's intimidate by the legalities, the costs, and doesn't understand legalise, nor had done her research. She's too busy looking at $50k houses, day dreaming of her new life every night, and watching reality shows.  I'm a dope for bringing up the subject a few months ago, and now I'm asking for marital documents to copy pertaining all mortgage, marital, and S1 info to copy just to be prepared info since she retains some of them in her file bin in guest room. I just want copies to have a consultation to see what my options are.

LBS's take note of this. Do not let your WAS know what you are doing as far as legal consultations unless asked, and even then. Do initiate R talks, or educate them on CS talks or Mediator talks. Do not let the left hand know what the right hand is doing. Take your heart out of the equation and protect yourself and your children. Let them get educated and do their own work and research.

7 months of no interest in the subject. She sent me a link to a local mediator last night through text. So I was like.

H: Ok? What do you want me to do with this?
W: Research her I guess to see if it's someone you want to use
W: I think we would go to the mediator together. If you want to ask a lawyer questions youd go on your own
H: I don't think a mediator is of any interest to me, or you. We already have informal agreements being met on good faith related to split finances, split responsibility, debts, child scheduling, etc. Only interest a mediator, (at least a consultation ) for me would be for marital property, and child custody. So far we are agreeable on all. Yes?
W: So far, but I want something more concrete in place for custody... I dont know how all if this works.

She has no idea that our state doesn't have 50/50 custody or legal seperation, just sole physical custody and legal, shared and joint. CP and NPC. No idea about alimony, CS calculations, imputed income, voluntary unemployment, etc.
I don't think she even realizes the purpose of a mediator is to solve disputes, legal, parental, or otherwise, and as of current, we don't have any other than POV.

After I wrote this. I was walking around the house grabbing a few things. Silence being so thick, walking past her not even looking in her direction like its been for the past 5 months. I decided to make an espresso, and just sit on the couch across from her while she indulged in her shows with a blank, concerned, depressed face. So just for the hell of it. Not because I wanted to make a connection. Just wanted to see if it was me or her that has been creating this distance. Just wanted to see if she was ok. We had a really good talk, no R talks, (believe me I'm done having them as they are exhausting.) But the usual talks about personal growth, concerns, goals, individual dreams, etc. I'm going to compose and update that convo later. Interesting topics and dynamics, some that I've noticed several times before, each time now with a new perspective on dynamics.

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Originally Posted by IHCLACS
I made this very clear and non-negotiable to her. So I am essestialy setting her free, but I'm only going to do what's required.

She also wants to quit her current job as a special needs teacher behavioral specialist by this June, which she makes about $63 K annually with amazing health insurance as a Behaviorist. She wants to work from home remotely as a Remote Health Coach Nutrition Specialist/startup business to be home with S1. Average median is $48k. This is something that she does have a little bit of training from online weight loss modules. But has absolutely no real world experience in or experience in running a 1099 or independant business.


IHCLACS - I'm gonna be honest with you and say that your last post really sounds like pursuit. You say you're letting her go but then you spend the whole next paragraph rationalizing how she's doesn't know what she's doing. Being detached means you let that go. It really, really sounds like you're spending a lot inordinate time on what she ought to be doing. That's pursuit, and she probably feels it and is going to make choices on the basis of that, and they're not going to be turning her towards you.

Look, she's made up her mind to leave. She will leave. The only choice you have is the last thing she'll see when she looks back. If there is a chance for you guys you have to let go, detach, and show her that there is still the guy in there she initially fell for when she met you. Your other choice is to show her the resentment and hurt you're expressing. Nobody has ever said "I want to return to a situation when now the man I left might not trust me and resent me for leaving in the first place." Even if she thinks it's her fault, she'll scramble away from your negativity as fast as she can. Imagine if someone kept telling you that you're making the wrong choices, and not validating your agency. Would you respect that?

Let. Go.

Someone who is detaching is focused on their daily positives in their writing. The things that made them feel good about themselves. What do they hope to achieve and the positive outcome they think it will bring. What happened lately that made you feel good? I'm not saying pretend to be happy, or never write about the negative feelings you have, but don't use up so much space to describe your resentment towards what she's doing. In psychology it's a form of rumination. Like constantly repeating a mantra that dictates your driving motivation. If you ruminate on resentment, resentment is going to grow. Resentment is insidious like that - it rewires the brain, and you both have been doing the rewiring for a long time. It will take a long time to undo it, but it has to first be a conscious choice. Until it becomes habitual. Then it gets easier.

Want another analogy? I'm full of them. (Ha!) Whenever I think about the enormity of what I'm confronting I imagine a giant stone wheel on a pivot. It's turning fast. It built up a lot of momentum over the years, but it wasn't always spinning in this direction. There was a time when the wheel spun the other way. That was the time when me and my W loved each other. It took us both contribute negative energy to force it to stop then spin the way it rotates now. It wasn't a big, abrupt change. It's was the collective action of small choices and dynamics that got it going that way, and so it will take a long time, and a consistent inverse input of energy to restore the original spin. That's the only choice you got - add more to its current inertia? Or slow it down, stop it, and reverse it? Consistency is key.


Incidentally, have you read Melissa Orlov's "The ADHD Effect on Marriage: Understand and Rebuild Your Relationship " I think, that if ADD is in the picture you need to read this book (I can't remember if someone mentioned it to you before). Anyway, it's a compassionate look at the dynamics that develop in relationships where the disorder is present. When I first read it, it almost cut me off at the knees; it was like someone followed me and my W around for 10 years and took notes. It described my marriage exactly down to the smallest detail. Maybe you'll find your self in it as well. Anyhow, it's full of very accurate advice from a person who has lived the situation her self and managed to recover. I can't recommend it enough.


Last edited by MarcPa; 04/27/19 06:42 AM.
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As an aside, something happened to me today that affirmed a lot of what I'm trying to relate in this forum. I'm separated but still live with W and our two kids. At this point in my situation I feel pretty detached, and feel an odd and very transient pang of anger and resentment, but it's brief and manageable. I go for a walk and it goes away. As soon son as I've finally managed to corral and drop my pursuit (the ruminating, following her around, explaining her feelings to her, all the stuff involved in pursuit) the mood in the house turned around almost over-night. She stopped agitating for physical separation, and lately things have become rather pleasant. By no means is anything over, and I continue to be wary of the things she says, but they don't really affect me any more. I know she's anxious, and worried about the future, but me letting go has reduced a lot of the signal noise she had to deal with. So now the conversations about taking next steps don't feel torture sessions, and sometimes it feels like we're a team again. This is important because at the heart of our issues is lost trust, and having these little exchanges rebuilds that trust-bridge we tore down over the years. One brick at a time. I know I have to be patient. So that's where we are now.

Anyway, W has recently concluded her course-work for her PHd. I offered that we celebrate it in some small way. Nothing big. Just an excuse to go get some all-you-can-eat sushi with the kids. I make a reservation at the restaurant and we show up. We're greeted by a very attractive maitre d'. I'm feeling pretty good, smiling, crack a few jokes with her. She returns a smile. Then while she has the waiter prep a table for us my kids complain that they need to go to the bathroom. W offers to take them and disappears to the bathroom leaving me alone with the other woman.

Then out of nowhere, the maitre d' looks at me squarely and with a big smile asks me "So how has your day been?" I say "Great! I'm really looking forward to the sushi." I wink and then add in conspiratorial tone, "I've been starving myself all day in preparation." She laughs genuinely, and then we continue in conversation. Then it hits me. We're flirting! This isn't any longer a polite, business-like exchange of pleasantries but a full on expression of mutual interest. It was such an odd feeling because I experienced something that hasn't happened to me in a while.

Now I'm not telling you this to make you feel bad, or trumpet my own success. The point is that me letting go of my W has allowed me to be me again. To feel free of gloom and indecision. To experience options. Once I dissipated that cloud over my head I started to notice that people respond differently to me, including my W. Even though my situation is far from over I do feel that I am going to be ok. It's incredibly affirming that all the hard work, in spite of the pain and hurt, is starting to pay off. I'm getting my self-worth back, and it's attracting people to me. Maybe that person will be my wife.

This is the point of letting go.




PS: It's funny, but until now, I don't think my young-self understood what my dad's answer when I then asked him, "Dad? What's the secret to having success with women?" He answered, "Having options."


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Marc. I can Definately go for some "all you can eat buffet sushi" if you catch my drift. ;-) Just no red snapper...lol..
Did some housework this weekend, heat went out in house. Went out with younger brother for lunch, drinks and cigars. W texted me realtor was coming at 3pm as a courtesy. Ignored text. Felt good to relax and talk about life with someone close to me who understands me like kid brother. I think we both felt like ourselves again. Came home charged. I almost though I walked into the wrong house. House was clean from top to bottom (for realtor of course or company, never for herself.) Didn't say much to me. I just played with S1. I was actually impressed and gave several compliments to W on how nice house looked, she really deserved credit where credit is due. She started going off about realtor, price range suggestions, etc. I just nodded, listened, smiled, said ok, and just walked away. I have absolutely no interest in her or her agenda. I almost wanted to smile and say "I really don't GAF" But nothing wrong with being polite, smiling, less is more, let them read between the lines and figure it our th same way they expect us to read their social cues. I can't wait to just move on with my life.

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Originally Posted by IHCLACS
Ready, when you figure this out, let me know because I believe we are all in awe trying to figure out how they could care less that their children will be in a broken family.


This might help in your understanding:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2845776#Post2845776


"What is best for my kids is best for me"
Amor Fati
Link to quotes: https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2879712
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Yeah I saw that in (no trust) part 5 pg.4. Pegasus really nailed to reply to that one at the time.

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Since I was just conversing on Wolfman's post, and we were discussing incentives for wanting to stay. It got me thinking. I'm sure that most of us here feel like currently in the midst of our situations that there is no incentive to want to stay. However looking at the people who did successfully avoid their divorces on here. We all know that time and space heals. We also know that we changed through and because of the process. If everyone here, and the vets, advocates being in the present and accepting the present situation, accepting there WAS for who they are, where they are in life right now, and accept that the relationship and current MR is over and dead. That the only way through this is to rebuild yourself, improve yourself and only be responsible for yourself and your actions, thoughts, words,deeds, and behaviors. Not to live in the past of the person you knew, or the marriage you knew....

Here is a provocative $64,000 Question? What keeps hope alive for most people here? Going off of what you knew, and how you knew it, and how you knew them? (Coming from good memories of the past.) Or is it because you like what you see in the changes that you make for yourself, as well as the changes you are witnessing unfolding from your WAS in the present?

I understand that respect and trust clearly need to be earned back, and to do that it tastes consistency and time which I also understand. For those of you here who have pieced, and have experience piecing. At what point did the tides turn and you became hopeful again and what were the indications and reasons why? I'm not looking for timelines as that's irrelevant to me. I want to know the how's and why's of how trust and respect was restored, how communication was opened again, and how far does someone have to fall to get there? Was it because of a willingness for both parties to cooperate, and attempt to relate again? Can anyone of you list any of your personal experiences on redeveloping trust and softening walls, once the willingness of respect and trust is attempted with sincerity to be earned back.

I know that from this experience, myself and my W will never be the same again. But that's also a good and a bad thing. I realize that you have to let go of someone and your idea who they are, and I realize that neither one of us will be the same two to three years from now, whether together or not it will definitely be a growing experience and a learning experience which I'm probably going to love and hate at the same time. I'm just curious from the experts on here that did decide to renew their M. What was it like starting a new? What was said? How did it start? What was the conversation, the way it happened and the starting point? From what everyone says on here, when and if I do know I will definitely know for sure without all the wishy-washyness, providing full commitment sincerity and humility. I guess what I'm asking is once everyone started a new again what did that conversation dialogue look like?

Because right now I have absolutely no incentives or intentions to want to stay M. other than the possibility of time to see how this unfolds in the future out of curiosity. But I will admit. A healthy part of my self-respect, pride and my ego will always say: " I will never be or accept being Plan B" to someone else's goals, dreams, desires, and relationships. There is not going to be a "oops I screwed up get-out-of-jail-free card" for my WAW years from now if he does decide to return, unless there's some real change, real humility, real honesty, real discussion, and respect, as well as the willingness to see the other person's point of view.

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Your situation reminds me a bit of mine. No affair, no girls/boys gone wild, no rudeness or disrespect. Just a spouse who is done.

And I think you are asking the wrong questions.

Your wife is saying she doesn’t want to live with a man who is moody, very critical, leaves all the parenting to her (or did until BD), and relies on her working an emotionally draining job to provide financial stability and health insurance for the family.

You don’t need to be talking about what you need from her in order to take her back. You need to be asking how you can develop empathy to understand how your words and actions affected her and how you can 180 your behaviors so you are a person who is emotionally healthy to be in a relationship with.

Stay focused on your side of the street. It’s plenty messy.

And that’s the beauty of divorce busting—cleaning up our stuff, without worrying about our partner’s stuff—can dramatically improve our relationship.


Me: 44
H: 44
Kids: 20, 16, 16, and 10
Together/Married: 22 years
H announced he was emotionally detached and considering D: 4/4/16
H announced he is going to try to stay and reconnect: 5/1/16
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All very true Rose... All very true... I honestly do, and try to look at her situation with empathy at least once a week, to remind myself. Its what keeps me humbled. I am honestly working on my emotional well being through counciling and coaching, and I am learning so much and getting better at my responding rather than reacting. I have had a list of 180's since Jan and have been working to make them habit. As far as the focus on my side of the street, well that goes back and forth with me weekly. But I am becoming more detached by the week, and having more clairvoyance after 7 months of this. I guess I look at both sides quite frequently to replay or find any dynamics I can work on or be aware of for myself in the future. But your analysis is spot on (Of her perception anyway.) Mine is much different. I add a lot of these up as perceived judgements and not facts.

"Your wife is saying she doesn’t want to live with a man who is moody, very critical, leaves all the parenting to her (or did until BD), and relies on her working an emotionally draining job to provide financial stability and health insurance for the family."

These are all true in my honest judgement, except the parenting part, and I do have my own insurance. Hers is better however. At least it will be until she quits this year.

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