It sounds like both of you were kind to each other even though you were both a bit stressed. That's good progress, Alison. I know what you mean about it being work though, I feel like both dh and I feel like that sometimes...
I had a hard morning this morning. Dog and Eldest were both playing up, and it was all a bit chaotic and I thought we were going to be late for school and I felt totally overwhelmed. Cried in the car after the school run. Had a brief chat with H (who is coming over tonight to take care of the kids while I GAL) which got a bit tense but we left it on good terms.
My instinct in these moments is to go to H because I want comfort and help. It's stupid because as has been said, despite what he is saying about R, he isn't available, able or willing to give that mind of support at the moment. I think he probably wants to be, and wants to be able to receive it, but the fact is that isn't where we are. We're not a team. And when I ask him for emotional support, this generally triggers a pretty defensive, critical side in him (here's why your difficult morning is your own fault) that I think comes from a kind of panic (I am never going to be able to be enough for her and make her happy so I will push her away) and this triggers me getting shrill and insistent and defensive and panicky and it escalates until I'm crying and we end up blaming each other. That didn't happen this morning, but only because we both had to get off the phone and get on with the day. I could sense it coming and I think he could do.
I need to stop this by not turning to him in this moments, but not doing it in a spirit of bitterness (I'm not calling that nasty so-and-so because all I get is criticism anyway and he's an awful, critical know-it-all who isn't worth bothering with) but in the spirit of turning towards myself and my own resources and being understanding - if I can be - that he has no resources for a relationship.
I think when I have a hard morning with the kids, I get very very self pitying. I start to feel resentful and uncared for. Abandoned, alone. Like I wouldn't be having such a hard morning if only H loved me / was a better person / etc etc. An attitude like that isn't me accepting the facts - which is that for the time being I am a single mother and I need to find a way to make that work without drama at busy flash-points in the day. I have most of the day alone, able to work at home at my own pace, see my friends and do GAL so there's no reason that a frantic hour in the morning is beyond me.
I also need a better routine in the mornings, and it will involve Eldest doing a bit more (he generally stays upstairs preening until he comes down, collects his packed lunch (made by me) and goes out of the door about half an hour earlier than he needs to because he likes to socialise with his friends before school starts. I think Eldest making his own packed lunch each morning would be a start and would free up a little bit of my time so things aren't frantic.
Er, my ds2 made his packed lunch from about age 8! I hear you on the school run stress though, I used to be late for school every morning until ds2 started going by himself...I also hear you on the self-pitying and feelings of abandonment too, such an ugly feeling.
It's ok to talk about having a hard morning with the kids with your H, after all he is the dad and therefore should probably be kept in the loop especially if he's seeing them later. Maybe if you tell him what you need when you complain about them then he might not feel the need to go into Fixit mode? Like 'I have had a horrible morning and feel upset about it but I just want to complain and have you listen'. Or do it via text, with a few emojis or something. I don't know, what would be a 180 for you on this?
Yeah - I did say that to him. I said, 'I'm not having a go at you, I just need a bit of a pep talk because I've had a hard morning,' but the fact is, he just can't do that for me right now and I need to accept that. Instead he wanted to talk - and demanded that I listen (then blamed me for the length of the phone call) to him tell me how frustrated he was about me not making Eldest do more for himself. And he is right about that - Eldest does need to shift himself a bit more in the mornings and at other times - and the boundaries have been working well with him but there is further to go. I listened, and I said, 'I know you're right about a lot of this. And I am doing my best. And I need, sometimes, for you to choose your time and sometimes just offer a bit of support,' and that's when it got more heated so we both ended the call. I don't think the problem is me not asking for what I need specifically and assertively. I think the problem is my not accepting that he just can't do it. Maybe he can't do it now because he is stressed. Maybe he can't do it now because he needs me to empathise with his sense of frustration first. Maybe he just can't do it at all because he doesn't have it in him. I don't know. And either way what I need to do today is accept that we don't have that mutual team support thing going on, and turn towards my own resources. I don't want a marriage like that, so either he will change and start to offer more, or I will go on my own way without him.
I don't feel self pitying now. I do feel a bit empowered to make some changes in the morning routine. And I do think I am a bit further along in accepting that a) H can't be a team player with me right now and b) I don't want a marriage where there isn't mutual support going on.
I suppose what I am learning today is the same as what I needed to learn when he was round the other night, having a 20 minute go at me for all my faults. He seems to have so much pent up anger and bitterness towards me that any time I go towards him asking for something, he uses it as the opportunity to vent some of that. And I think I've heard enough about my failings a parent and a wife and a human being now. There are many many many of them, and I am working on them, and I will never be perfect. And I will always do things that he just doesn't particularly like, and he can learn to live with that without nastiness, or not. But I just want some constructive conversations about how to go forward together, or for us to part. And I think I just can't go to him for support any more because he isn't currently able to offer it verbally (though I acknowledge he has been doing some practical things to help).
I have a question. I think I need to understand the difference between validation and being a doormat in the face of his criticism and blaming.
At the moment, I want to be available to validate his feelings and to act in a kind and supportive way if I can - but not where that has a bad effect on my emotional well being.
I want to stop having to absorb his criticism and blame and rehashing of the past. I've done such a lot of that. I'm done with that now. It probably makes him feel a bit better to have me listening humbly to his characterisations of my faults - and in many respects he is correct. But I have all the information about that that I need, I am working on it according to my own judgement and ability, and all allowing him to do that does is keep him blaming me and feeling like a victim, and keep me feeling criticised and hurt and like I'm being constantly auditioned. I don't want to do it any more.
Where is the fine line between validating and being assertive and protecting myself? What's the difference between him expressing a feeling and just criticising me? How to deal with both things assertively and compassionately?
I want to be available to validate his feelings and to act in a kind and supportive way if I can
That right there is your problem..
You are not dropping that rope at all... you may think you are based on your previous way of dealing things but in this sort of environment acting in a supportive way is helping nothing.
This is about you not him... your keeping one toe in the pool testing the water all the time.
Things will not change the way you are currently dealing with things.
No wonder you sound confused, all these different ways of acting in different scenarios is just inauthentic because in the long run you will never be able to keep it up.
Without a shadow of a doubt... the best way to get any relationship in this situation back is too let go.
If the relationship is genuine both people will find a way back to each other.
The reason most dont on here is because people are constantly trying to fix things or make things better. Let it go.
No, I think you've misunderstood me, or at least, I haven't clearly expressed myself.
I want to be able to validate him when he expresses feelings (following the DB advice and the stick, which I have re-read a few times recently) but I also want to be able to shut down the criticism and blaming. I find it hard to know the difference. Yail pointed out that when I thought I was validating him, I was actually allowing him to emotionally abuse me. I've been thinking about it a lot because I don't how how to tell the difference and I want to know how to - for my own growth and emotional well being and because it will be useful to me in all my relationships (I think I am a doormat with my Eldest too!) and not only for H.
Benito - I understand you don't think the way I am doing things is correct or helpful. Can you make a suggestion as to what would be better in terms of validating well and setting a boundary where there is emotional abuse going on?
Perhaps it helps if I am more specific. When H says something along the lines of 'I am really stressed' or 'I feel exhausted and like this work is never going to finish' or 'I'm angry that our marriage has got to the point where I've had to move out during the most stressful period of my working life,' I say things like 'It must be horrible to be going through all this at the worst possible time,' and 'things are so hectic and demanding for you right now' and 'I understand why you'd feel that way - I'd feel like that too,' and I consider that validating.
When he says 'you think xxx and because of that you're going to do xxxx' I can say 'I know given my behaviour in the past you're really afraid I'm going to do xxx in the future,' and sometimes that works and sometimes it gets him mad, because I am saying he has a fear based on an assumption, rather than agreeing that yes, I do think what he assumes I think and yes, I do plan on doing the thing he is afraid of me doing.
Sometimes he will speak at length about how things were for him in the past - sometimes many years past. I will say 'it was so horrible for you to be so unappreciated for such a long time and right now it feels impossible for you to move past that,' or 'for you the past is still really in the present and those feelings aren't in the past, but they are now' or 'I can understand why something like that would affect you so deeply and make it difficult for you to see who I am today.'
That's what I try to do when I validate. A lot of what he expresses to me are feelings of being unvalued, unwanted, second best. He also tells me what I think, what I feel, what I am going to do next, then gets himself angry about it. He will also predict what I am about to say, then start getting angry about that - even if I am very quiet he will go ahead and have an argument on his own. Then he will get annoyed about how long we've been having the conversation.
I consider emotional abuse to be name calling, sarcasm, mockering, belittling comments, etc etc. These have reduced MASSIVELY since I started ending every conversation where they took place. I don't think hearing things I disagree with or that make me feel uncomfortable counts as emotional abuse. I think being told what I think and what I am going to do next then blamed for it is unproductive, but perhaps not abusive. I worry that when I sit there and let him vent, all it does is entrench his anger and resentment.
Hmm, I really don't know the answer to that question, it's something I struggle with as well. Maybe you could give him a time limit to complain? In a nice way not a teasing way. Maybe something like 'I know you have a lot of hurt to express, but it's painful for me to hear it and maybe it's not very productive, can we set a timer for 5 minutes and then move forward onto another subject? You're allowed to have your feelings but perhaps we could be more present and future oriented'
My dh has gone on a couple of rants about how miserable he was blah blah blah. I've stopped being defensive, and I've started validating as much as I can, but it still hurts. And maybe me validating just leaves dh stuck too, he's entitled to his feelings but I have worked super super hard to forgive him and let go of resentments to think about the future.
Or maybe if he won't agree to a time limit then both of you take a 30 minute time out to calm down and then go back to your conversation more civilly?
I think that time limit might help me. Will have to think about how to phrase that.
When it comes to it, I can't control what he feels or how he chooses to express that feeling. My choices are to listen or end the conversation, and how I might want to respond. My aim is to be kind and compassionate - whether we end up R or not. So I want to find a way to respond in a way that is kind to myself as well as to him.
I know when he starts these rants I panic and I often try to shut him down by ending the conversation. I have always done that. I've always been totally terrified that if he's angry with me, that's it, we're done. He tells me a lot that he feels he isn't allowed to be angry or upset.
I need to be less reactive, but also respect the fact that my well being matters and whether I SHOULD be able to deal with it in a detached and calm way or not, if I can't, I can't, and that's the reality I need to work with.
