I don't think the LBS / WAW / WAH/ WW labels matter 1 jot Alison. I think there was a pretty good reason why you asked and then begged him to leave. You had a marriage in crisis. My reading of DB was that it was for a marriage in crisis. A spouse that has left is one aspect of that for which it is suggested there may need to be special considerations.
I was a LBS who was then the one who pulled the plug on my M. My H was genuinely surprised that I wanted to Divorce. Distance showed me that the grass was actually greener and there was more out there for me. I am starting to suspect that in a few months / years I would have pulled the plug and been a WAW anyway.
I worry about you Alison because you come across as a tightly coiled spring who is trying to spin plates and juggle with burning coals.
He has told you that he isn't going to meet your need to repair this R yet.
Either accept that and sit and wait whilst working out what it is you fear. Or decide that you are not waiting.
I know you want to wait, so do your R a favour and back off.
Up 'ere in the North we would describe you as 'mawking' at him. Hovering and mothering and trying to fix.
Leave him be. Not to punish him, but just to identify yourselves as independent human beings.
This makes sense to me, thank you. And yes - I can see that I am still tightly coiled with my hands all over this situation trying to manage it and control it - and him - in order to get myself out of uncertainty and pain. It must be terrible to be on the receiving end, because it's only part of me that feels like that - the other part knows he has a long way to go before I'd be able to be in a functioning relationship with him, that is his journey and not mine, that he's not taking it, may not even want to take it, and I am about as terrified of being back in the marriage that was as I am of a future without him. It's veering between these two states that makes me so erratic and probably awful to be around. At one point making him soup and mothering him, at the other reminding him of the flaws of his he needs to work on before I'd be interested in him. It's horrible and exhausting for me and is probably deeply unpleasant for him too.
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You used the word "cruel" in how he interacted with you while stressed. Is that word accurate? Because if it is, I think you really need to reflect on it.
I've been around/with people who are stressed to the max. People I'm very close with, people I love. And they can be short, they can be snippy and they can be rude. But they can NEVER be cruel. That is a line that is crossed and just not how you treat someone you love. It's not.
Yes, I believe it is accurate. He knows what hurts me. He knows that if he makes nasty remarks about my childhood or my father, or an illness I suffered from when we first met, or he does mocking and belittling impressions of me being upset, or says nasty things about the children, that I'd get so upset I will leave the conversation - leave the room or the house or hang up the phone. It's a desperate act on his part to get out of a conversation he doesn't want to have (and I can take responsibility for my part in us being in that conversation in the first place) but it is also very calculated.
We discussed it in MC and I basically begged him to take those techniques off the table - for him to agree that no matter what else happened he would stop doing those things. He had stopped - for a while - but the other night I guess he'd had a drink and I was upset and he wanted to get out of the conversation and he knows that's a great way of getting me to retreat. So he did it again. He doesn't seem to feel any shame or sorrow or contrition about it - and yes, he did apologise, but basically because I brought it up.
He can be a very cruel and nasty man. Or rather, when he feels threatened he will do whatever he thinks will work to get me to go away and leave him alone. And he finds even very gentle approaches threatening sometimes. He has an awful relationship with every single one of his female relatives, is very contemptuous about people's emotions, and is generally one of those people with a terror of being engulfed. And yet he was round yesterday to take care of the kids so I could go out, he was asleep when I got back so he stayed over again, and is here making no plans to leave and is clearly miserable and wanting the comfort of being at home.
Yes. I am in IC and have been for two years. I have a spiritual practice that involves me meeting regularly with a small group who I can speak openly with. I have good friends. I'm not close with my family, but that's healthy for me.
I was the one to ask my H to leave. I was the one to trigger his BD (in fact he was shocked that I was so unhappy). At the time he said all the right things (we're worth fixing, I still love you) but his actions said something different. He gaslighted. He raged. He disappeared for days. He wasn't completely at fault. I was needy and insecure and every time he looked at me I reminded him of the pain he was causing.
The thing is, even if I hadn't triggered BD, it would have happened anyway. I just brought the timeline forward. He had been depressed for months and his resentment had been building for years. I wasn't depressed but I too carried around a basket of resentment. Resentment is a poison that eats you up from the inside.
The man he was then is not the man he is now. The fog (whilst not gone) is lifting. The woman I am now is not the woman I was then. I am metaphorically lighter than I was. This doesn't mean we will R. But it bodes well for our futures - whether that be as a couple or as two individuals. Time did that.
Your H and you both have to get to calmer seas before otherwise you will be constantly fighting to keep your head above the water. And that is exhausting for both of you.
I agree with FS and that’s something I’m really struggling with myself right now, the calmer seas. Ugh isn’t this just so difficult? I’m looking forward to your Alison 2.0 list...
Thanks for the blunt suggestions and clear responses, friends. I am feeling a bit better today. I don't think me feeling better and him being away back to his own house are a co-incidence, either. I know I find it nearly impossible to be my best calm self around him. I wish he could see the person I am when it's just me and the kids. Sad sometimes, yes, but also getting on with things and parenting more lovingly and assertively and developing myself and getting out and about every day. Feeling inner calm and some serenity, even if there is sadness and uncertainty mixed in there too. When I'm around him I turn into someone else - I don't enjoy being that person and he sure doesn't like being with that person either. I don't know if this is the case, but I sometimes wonder if the reason why he seeks out contact with me and I seek out contact with him is that we're both trying to find and get contact with that good calm best version of each other. ANd the act of seeking - the desperation and control involved - triggers other versions of ourselves to show up for the interaction. The act of not finding triggers it too. And it gets messy and hurtful and sad. Sigh. More time and space needed - as you all keep telling me.
I have been working on my list and I would love some feedback. I want a list of things that will feed and nourish me. This is partly about self care, but also partly about me building the life I want to lead with or without my H.
A list of walks to take in the countryside over the next four months - planned and scheduled into my diary. Some alone and some with the kids. (Do this plan on Monday). Sign up and arrange childcare to attend weekly local meditation class. (Done). Make contact with a friend every day - phone, text, email or in person. See friends in person at least once a week. Be present for them and the things that are important to them as well as honest about what is going on with me. Reading - an hour a day (at least). Half an hour for pleasure and half an hour for self improvement. (Reading is one of my great pleasures and other than obsessively consulting relationship-repair type books, I've hardly picked up a book since January). Get out my knitting again and finish my heirloom blanket and my prayer shawl. Download podcasts / audiobooks to listen to while I'm doing it. Put in funding application at work (by June) and promotion application (by November). Deepen spiritual practice - find a regular time for solitary prayer and meditation daily.
And inspired by conversation in Yail's thread I did the M-B personality test and came out as a INFJ. This is the 'advocate' or 'counsellor' or 'visionary' depending on what website you look at. It means I am sensitive in connection with other people, creative, introverted, run on emotion and very intuitive. The more detailed descriptions are pretty spot-on for me. Sensitive and artistic but finding spontaneity stressful and needing structured time. Likes intimate contact with other people, but very introverted. The weak points or shortcomings are also very very spot on - emotionally over sensitive and reactive, extremely private and mistrusting, perfectionistic in work and relationships which can make me needy and demanding, and tendency to burn out easily.
I can see all this is extremely true for me.
Interesting. I'd usually be very dismissive of things like this, but it feels extremely accurate.
I have been reading about the personality types this morning a little (though must get on. I have precious child free time and do not want to spend it hunched in front of a screen on such a lovely day!) and it made me laugh. The list I've made echoes pretty precisely what, apparently, INFJ people need to recharge and feel better.
I didn't know that when I made the list but it is good to have it confirmed that I have SOME inner wisdom worth relying on, even if my radar when it comes to my marriage is totally skew-whiff.
I like your list Alison! Especially the balance between reading for pleasure and reading for improvement. That's a great balance.
And I'm glad it is fitting in with your Myers Briggs. I think when we are aware of our strengths and weaknesses it only helps to aid us in being better.
