You two talking has helped me a great deal . Seeing the other side so to speak it illuminating. I was going to try to explain how it feels to be a man in a demanding job and having a family but I think you have got a hold on that. I can see where the resentment builds up on the other side now . I do like MWD SBT approach. Don’t focus on the past/ why find a solution, try different things , see what works .
I truly believe that you can get to a non zero sum gain with some solutions , where you both win . Apologies for interrupting, you are welcome to ask me not to chuck in my thoughts on your thread . Otherwise I will drop the odd post in once in a while
I've been thinking about acceptance and uncertainty too. I know when I feel angry with H it is because I want him to say 'everything is going to be okay' and for me to be able to believe him. And of course he can't say that, and he can't make me believe or not believe anything. It isn't his job to cure my trust issues in this relationship or my general anxiety around vulnerability or my existential woe! And I did make it his job - I expected him to be my solid ground and he really did try his best to be. I think a lot of his anger is about feeling shamed for not being able to make me safe in the way I wanted to be.
And now I have to accept uncertainty and come to rely on myself and be the person who says to myself 'it will be all right' and some days I can and some days I can't. It is so so so hard. I will check out the podcast you mention. A book I've found useful about this sort of thing is called Radical Acceptance by Tara Brach. It is Buddhist but she refers to other spiritual traditions too and if you're not a person of faith, I don't think it loses its value or there's anything objectionable in it.
Sigh, yes, you're right. Yet another thing I have to work on. I actually have a bit of a dread of Tara Brach now though because I listened to her a lot when I was deep in the early weeks of not sleeping and being anxious all the time, and somehow that has contaminated my feelings about her! It was kind of helpful in calming me down back then but I haven't listened to her since. But maybe I can try practicing acceptance in other ways. My IC did say he thought I'd been extremely patient, that was good to hear when I don't FEEL patient. Nice to have some validation.
OK, so date last night. Met up and went for a walk and dinner. I've had a few terrible nights' sleep, an horrific nightmare the night before last and was feeling quite fragile after that and feeling poorly. Dh was also exhausted after finishing his busy time at work, binge drinking on Tuesday night and seeing his mother on Wednesday. Two very tricky things: I asked dh what his plans were for Easter and ds1's birthday which is just before. He said he was planning a lie in before joining us on Good Friday. I felt very rejected by that and went cold. I even fiddled with my wedding ring and put it in my pocket. He noticed me go cold and asked what was wrong and I couldn't tell him without either criticising him or getting really upset. I didn't know how to react. So I kept being cold and he chatted a bit and then I warmed up and moved on. Later on at dinner I was telling him about my lovely day out a week ago or so and mid sentence he looked over at another table and completely blanked me. Then he looked back at me like nothing had happened and didn't ask me to continue. So then I said maybe I should just leave and he acted all hurt and said sorry and got defensive and said he was tired and hadn't meant anything. And I cried a little bit and then we left and he said sorry and I said sorry and that I was super sensitive to rejection right now and he walked me to the station and I got a kiss on the lips but pretty much only because I demanded it. Sigh. And on the train I sent him a text saying I have stuff to say to him but he's not in the right place right now and it's scary for me. I felt like I need to tell him how I want to be open and vulnerable with him but how hard it is when he has the power to hurt me, and about the stuff I've been learning about myself and how I distance and how I go cold and how I want to change that. And I also want to tell him about the mask dream, but I just didn't feel safe last night so I wasn't brave enough (or he wasn't in the right place, maybe a bit of both).
I had a dream last night that the kids and I were staying in a hotel room which was like a room in a castle with locked gates and you could drive your car out into another locked area and then you still had to get out of more locked gates. And I said to the kids that this was like their dad's flat. And then dh turned up and there was a big walking group going up and down the stairs in the castle and I had promised dh something but forgotten so I got out of my car and ran down the stairs to go fetch it for him but the walkers were in my way. And I was all flustered and apologetic about letting him down and him being angry with me (a massive theme in our marriage but also behaviour I learnt from my mum). And then dh turned up near the top of the stairs and we started walking down and he said what a nice idea the walking group was and maybe we should join in, but I didn't want him to know how I found out about the group in case he went off to join them by himself. And then I woke up crying and angry that dh is keeping me and the kids locked in a room inside a castle when we need to be free. Woah. Sorry, just needed to get that down before I forget it! The walls of the room weren't that high but it was claustrophobic in there.
Anyway this morning we had a few friendly texts and then dh rang me a couple of times but my phone was on silent so then he started texting me as though I was angry with him (I wasn't at that stage) so I rang him back and said I couldn't hear the phone ringing. And he told me about his lunch with his mum and how he had told her not to bother me because she upset me last time. I thought about it a bit and then rang him really angry that he has been discussing me with his mum and told him not to do it. And then he said he was sick of me beating him up and I should just calm down instead of ringing up angry, so I pointed out that he had rung me first and I felt ambushed. Then he sent me a text about all the stuff I have ignored him complaining about over the years and I said I wished I could change the past and I was sorry. We sort of patched it up, I said sorry for the past and also for treading on his sore spots sometimes. He also asked what I meant about last night's text saying I had stuff to say and I said I couldn't discuss it on the phone. And he asked if my health was ok and I said yes (I had a cancer scare a few years back and he responded to it by rejecting me, but my IC suggested it was because he was terrified of losing me) And I felt upset that he cares about my physical health but apparently not my emotional health. But anyway.
So I calmed down a bit and then sent him a text saying that I was upset yesterday that he wasn't intending to see ds1 on his birthday, but that I didn't know how to say that without criticising him so I went cold instead, and that wasn't very mature of me and it's a bad habit of mine. And that I shouldn't take it as a personal rejection and I should butt out of him and ds1's relationship. And that I was feeling fragile this week. He rang me later and said that I was right, that he should see ds1 on his birthday (he made a huge effort to see ds2 recently on his birthday, so he's correct). We agreed to meet up for a family dinner after dh and ds1 finish work on his birthday, and I said I would ask ds1 to come with us for 2 out of 4 days over Easter. Since then we've had a few texts back and forth about possible venues and stuff to do for his birthday.
Massive brain dump there. Takehomes for me to think about and work on: be less reactive with dh, come up with more strategies for when I'm triggered. Be brave and try to open up with him sometime (on holiday?). Ponder the meaning of the castle dream (the walls and gates were low, boundaries? Or him locking himself away from us? Both?). Practice acceptance and detachment from the outcome (I will be ok no matter what, none of this work on myself is wasted) So just a short to do list there lol.
You two talking has helped me a great deal . Seeing the other side so to speak it illuminating. I was going to try to explain how it feels to be a man in a demanding job and having a family but I think you have got a hold on that. I can see where the resentment builds up on the other side now . I do like MWD SBT approach. Don’t focus on the past/ why find a solution, try different things , see what works .
I truly believe that you can get to a non zero sum gain with some solutions , where you both win . Apologies for interrupting, you are welcome to ask me not to chuck in my thoughts on your thread . Otherwise I will drop the odd post in once in a while
Hi Tryhard, thanks for your post. Sorry, I took such a long time writing my epic post earlier that I missed yours! I think the more we can understand the other person's perspective the better, so I would definitely be interested in your point of view from the male in an demanding job. There is a lot of gender stuff in here, which I think Alison has kind of seen both sides but I certainly haven't!
Dilly, don’t apologise, I have learnt a great deal from your posts . It has highlighted to me the differences in genders and how we see things . When I wasn’t tuned in , I felt I was busting my ###### to earn a decent wage and be a good provider for my family . Sacrificing my time and soul , work can be a lot of pressure and I didn’t communicate any more than a little. Talking about it outside of work just felt to me as I was reliving it and I wanted to switch it off .
I felt drained and vastly under appreciated sometimes when I then had to support my partner emotionally and withdrew . Maybe it was some sort of protection, I don’t know . But my understanding has grown and I am realising the compassion and understanding I had at the start of our relationship.
The thing in your post that jumped out at me was the dinner table situation. I have been your h in that ski. You expressed that you felt ignored/ invalidated ? Do you know how men communicate ? We use short sentences, 1m “hey” 2m “wassup “ 1m “not much, gonna watch football “ 2m”cool’team not doing well” 1m “no” 2m “ cya bar Friday “ 1m “cool” We focus on facts and ignore the superfluous words around it . You ladies on the other hand . Compare you and Alison’s conversations on her to my thread . Notice anything?
I don’t have answers but when you were talking, maybe you could have asked him what he thought about what you had just said ?
Tryhard - I am tuning in here and listening hard. Because I too have felt very blanked, slighted or dismissed by my H's style of communication. I don't think he realises that words aren't just to deliver information but are also there as a way of touching each other. So when he is taciturn, I feel rejected. I don't think he's wrong and I'm right, or that he needs to communicate the way I see fit - but I do wonder if there is a gender dynamic thing here that I am not paying enough attention to. I know when I ask H what he thinks or feels about something, he feels interrogated.
Ha, you two ought to read my dh's emails or texts: not a single unnecessary word. Sometimes to the point that it confuses more than communicates! I *do* have a tendency to go on and he has a tendency to shut me down after a bit. That's definitely a thing. I'm a storyteller, he's a doer.
The thing where he blanked me though, he was just tired. Though I notice he does it more when I'm talking about people he's not interested in. Which given I have distanced him in the past by paying more attention to other people is fair enough.
The other thing is if I drift off or interrupt when he's talking he goes ballistic, totally ballistic. I guess we're both very sensitive right now.
Update: he texted me at lunchtime asking if I could do breakfast or lunch next week before I take the kids away. I can't actually but offered him a drink one evening perhaps. Interesting. I was out GAL with a bunch of people today and he was asking me via text all about it. I feel totally exhausted, what a day.
OK so dh was away most of the weekend and was pretty remote, I just left him to it other than a few logistics texts. I figured he needed some time to himself and to sleep well so I backed off. This morning I went to a thing with ds2 and dh texted to ask if we had fun. Then he came home but we all needed to go straight out again to pick up ds2's friends for a party. I just remembered dh commented on a lamp I bought a few months ago which is next to my bed, he must have been snooping round the house and round my bedroom...The party was a lot of fun and then we went for pizza which was also fine. But dh left early to miss the worst of the traffic and I felt pretty upset TBH. It didn't help all the teens were playing some game of life type thing on their phones and shouting stuff like 'I just got divorced!' or 'I've got depression!' or 'both my parents just died!' Pretty hilarious when you're a teen, pretty devastating when you're middle aged.
Dh rang when I was dropping the last friend off and we had a quick chat about how successful the party was (teen boys are hard to please but they were busy saying they wanted to do the same activity for their birthdays) and we said we'd see each other on Friday when I collect dh from the airport in France. He did want to meet up tomorrow or Tuesday but we both had stuff on which clashed so we agreed it wouldn't work. I feel sad and maybe a bit like perhaps I shouldn't have asked him to this holiday next week, he's there for 2.5 days out of our 6 days but perhaps I should have just gone without him and given him a chance to miss us. But I offered him the chance and he agreed to come. I feel apprehensive about how it goes, I don't want my expectations too high but at least we will have plenty of time to spend together calmly in a nice environment. Some background is that this place is where dh came back to me properly after his first mini BD (in a way he has been mini BDing me every winter for the past 5 years or so). I wish so much that instead of saying 'yes of course we should just move on and I'll have sex with you' that I had said 'there is no way I'm staying married to you with this stuff going on, we get help or you need to leave'. I don't know how much it would have helped, but one thing I said to my IC is that he's there to keep me honest, to not brush this stuff under the carpet ever again. I need to work out what stuff I say to dh when we're on holiday, maybe I will take some notes because I forget stuff easily particularly when I'm stressed. I've been listening to more podcasts about what to do when you're triggered, I should take notes on those too!
Anyway, tomorrow night I am out GAL at an event where there are plenty of nice, intelligent men who I can chat to and then it's busy getting ready to go away, I'm looking forward to it and so are the teens I think. I will have plenty of time to get some work done, go running and walking and eat pizza with the kids, it'll be fun I'm sure. And not travelling with dh is always a massive bonus, since he has awful travel anxiety! Must count my blessings.
Just a bit of journalling. A few friendly texts with dh yesterday, mostly about kid stuff. My GAL event was postponed, which was a relief as I was super tired after a busy weekend. I'm conscious I initiated too many texts yesterday so I'm backing way off. It's hard to know what level to pitch it, being a distancer means I feel like I should pursue a little bit to show him I'm not distancing, but who knows, maybe he's just going through a thinking phase now work is quieter (he still has a bunch of work social stuff to attend though). Dh seemed to enjoy the party on Sunday but he looked tired still, and fat. He has really piled the weight on again and must have been drinking a lot (even more than usual which is a lot). Oh well, I never thought leaving would make him more happy so I guess that shows in his body. He is in a better place than when he left, I did actually think he might have been a suicide risk back then and he had horrific headaches for several months after he left. He is in a better place now and sometimes I see a genuine smile, but he's clearly not found happiness like he said he wanted. Who knew! I was hoping his MLC was abating but maybe it's just going into a different phase. He has shown much more interest in the kids and me compared with even a few months ago, but he's still clearly suffering.
I've been thinking about how to be during our weekend together, and I don't know yet. I will try to be calm and relaxed. I might tell him in advance I don't expect sex (we will likely share a bed given the set-up) in an effort to show him he's safe. I'd like to tell him about my dream, and about my realisation of how much I've distanced in the past and how I realise now how much that hurt him, and how I want to have more empathy. If I do this I will phrase it all in 'I' language, because I know he's not feeling safe right now for whatever reason. And since we will be spending 2 weekends in succession together, I would really like him to feel safe with me and the kids. And I will avoid any R talks like the plague, because I really cannot bear to hear him saying he doesn't know if he wants to be married any more.
I've also been thinking about the future a bit. Not too far in the future, but there is a bank holiday coming up in a few weeks and he has not mentioned any plans. I think I might go away by myself for a yoga retreat for a few days or something, or go walking with a group, something like that. And at the end of May it's school holidays again, I would like to plan something for that too, again he has not mentioned it and if he doesn't after Easter I will just go ahead and book something which suits me and the kids and if he wants to he can join us. I think if it gets to June and things haven't moved forward then I will be thinking hard about what I want. I have also been thinking about this house and whether I want to stay here or not. I'm thinking about moving, but until I know where dh will end up I'm not sure where I will move to. Obviously if I sell this house he needs to be on board too. I feel a bit trapped because the kids have their schools and ds1 has his job and his girlfriend so they will not want to move, but if dh can have a fresh start why can't I? I am not going to mess up my kids' lives but equally I don't think I want to stay here with all the memories if dh isn't coming back. I will think about this, it'll take forever to actually do anyway, and ds1 will be leaving school in just over a year anyway. Time marches on and things change whatever happens in my marriage.
I've been reading some of the success stories in the MLC forum, I can see a few real parallels with my sitch I think. I have to back off taking so much responsibility for this whole mess and remember that he has a lot of issues to work through from his childhood and also what the future will look like. I hope he hurries up with that...
thinking about the future it hard, isn't it? Is there anything about your present you would change if you knew for sure that your marriage was at an end? I don't mean the big stuff, like moving house, but just the way you spend your time and how you live day to day? I've been asking myself that question a lot. I think it's right that you can't live your life in this kind of pause forever - and if in June your H is no further forward in explaining what he wants than he was when he left, then perhaps it is time for you to go dark and maybe consider dating or something? I know I won't be as supportive and welcoming if May passes and my H is still telling me he doesn't have the emotional capacity to tell me what he wants. I will be making that decision for myself.
Do you think your H might have, or might have developed, an alcohol problem? Not all alcoholics are drinking vodka in the morning, or showing signs of physical dependency. If he drinks instead of reflecting on or dealing with uncomfortable feelings or situations, then it will be a very very very long time before anything changes, and when they do change, it will probably be for the worse. Is that something that worries you?
Changing my life: I don't know. I have a big career transition coming up in October and I have no idea what's happening after that, whether I will go get a full time office job or a temporary contract or what. I've told my IC I'm trusting fate for that, and that I can make stuff happen career-wise. I don't have to work financially then but if dh isn't in the picture I think it would be good for me, even if it's part-time. I'm trying not to think about it actually because there is so much other stuff going on before then. I quite like my life the way it is right now, seeing my friends a few times a week, taking ds1 to lunch one day a week, taking the teens to their activities and going to yoga and fitness classes. The latter will change because my gym is shutting in the summer so I need to make a new routine there anyway. So I kind of think that I will have to make myself a new life at some stage this year no matter what. I feel a bit stuck over having to take the kids to their sporting things because they can't get themselves there, that might impinge on what work I do later on, and it could affect where we could move to.
Dh definitely has an alcohol problem, he's always drunk quite a bit but it's got worse and worse over the years as he's got more senior. His workplace is alcohol fuelled too, every social event involves a couple of bottles of wine each. When he left he said he wanted to get his alcohol consumption under control because he knew it was damaging his health, and he said he thought he was using wine to numb himself out. Since then he's acknowledged that he hasn't drunk any less. I've stopped calling him out on his alcohol use, it doesn't help and it won't change his behaviour. I like drinking too, and occasionally I drink a bit too much, but the whole hormonal thing means alcohol seems to affect me more both during and afterwards, so I have been trying to moderate my drinking as much as possible, mostly successfully. I'm not sure he's capable of moderation though, and if he gave up then I would be willing to as well. Maybe I should tell him that, I don't know. I just don't talk about alcohol much unless we're at the pub and I'm discussing the beer. But wine is his big downfall.
I'm unsure of whether he's properly an alcoholic or whether he's just got terrible, terrible coping mechanisms and is using alcohol inappropriately. I thought originally when he left that he would just cover everything up with alcohol, but I have seen signs of him trying to change, and succeeding in some areas, and I think him taking up running is part of that because it's looking after himself and probably giving himself time to reflect. I do wish he would talk to someone, but I can't make him, just like I can't make him do anything.
I'm probably just being a bit glum because I feel dh retreating a bit lately. Maybe he's doing that because he needs to work on himself more, I don't know. I do know I can't hang around waiting forever without hope. This April will be illuminating in seeing whether or not there is hope, I think. I do think that dh is desperate not to lose me, which is just plain bizarre.
I'm unsure of whether he's properly an alcoholic or whether he's just got terrible, terrible coping mechanisms and is using alcohol inappropriately.
In a way, it doesn't matter. If he drinks when he feels bad rather than dealing with the thing that makes him feel bad - either from the inside or by making an external change - then it will be a very very long time, if ever, before he's able to make positive changes. Why would he need to, when he has a medicine that will always take the impetus for change away?
I think you're right to step away from the problem of his drinking, whatever it means to him and your marriage. It's probably like an affair in that you can't control it, can't change it, can't do anything about it, and it also has nothing at all to do with you. I do know that people who are inappropriate with alcohol (or anything else) are in a primary relationship with that, rather than themselves or their spouse. He probably doesn't have room for himself in his own life, never mind a wife and children, if he's drinking the way you think he might be.
I think you're doing so well, Dilly. Your work, and your GAL, and your patience and your IC calling you to account and not letting you sweep anything under the carpet. You're being so gentle and understanding and also admitting your own stuff without playing the victim. Perhaps this holiday will be a real watershed moment for you. Perhaps you don't need to plan what you're going to say - no need to try to control or manipulate the experience (I mean those terms as neutrally as I can - I mean, you don't need to try to provoke change...) - maybe you can just work on trusting that this new Dilly will be able to respond honestly and assertively and authentically to whatever the time together offers, and then reflect afterwards about what changes you want to make.
It is impossibly hard, I know. I don't think I would be up to it but I think that you are.
Do you feel he got into a “rut” with his life before? I think he is maybe just making a new one with his drinking. I think drinking blocks out the “worrying “ side of the brain and can alleviate the thoughts that need to be addressed myself, but I know we are all different. For me I like to sit with a coffee and chat about random thiy(oh and people watch) my one guilty sin
With the holiday I think no expectations and just let go and enjoy yourself, you have been through a hellish experience recently and deserve to have some well earned respite
Thank you Alison, those words were so kind, they really mean a lot to me. I'm going to trust myself to say the right thing if I need to and to listen and respond to dh empathetically over the weekend and to not get upset or try to interpret his actions too much. We'll see how it goes, there has been more honesty between us the last month or so so perhaps we can keep moving in that direction. The alcohol thing I definitely can't control, and I'm not sure dh can either, but he has to decide to seek help if he can't do it alone. One of his colleagues' wives recently was admitted to rehab, she was drinking to the point where she was putting her kid in danger and was pretty much forced into going sober, he thinks of that as proper alcoholism rather than his current drinking 1-2 bottles of wine every night. I know he does worry about it though, and also that I can't help him with it but I can be non-judgemental and listen if he wants to talk about it.
Tryhard: he was definitely in a rut before, but drinking was part of that rut and now he has made a new rut for himself with even more work and the same amount of wine. Doesn't seem like this new rut is better for him, and he might even see that. I don't know what will get him out of his rut. I do know he's quite an anxious person naturally, it would be good if he could seek help instead of self-medicating, but it can take a lot for men to seek help.
Thank you both so much, I am looking forward to getting lots of fresh air and exercise for me and for the teens, and relaxing somewhere pretty. I realised I haven't actually been on holiday since last August, which seems a lifetime for me when we usually go away every school holidays! I need to book something for May half term next, with or without dh.
That sounds so positive, Dilly. I think booking something for May - for yourself and the kids, with room for H depending on what happens - is a good idea.
Something I wonder about when I read your thread (and other people's and when I read my own and think about my own situation too...) is why we are doing what we're doing. Why do I want a remote, angry, critical, blaming, emotionally stunted man who hasn't prioritised me in years, blames me for his EA and blames me for him not being with his children, yet isn't quite ready to have a conversation about R or divorce? Why on earth do I want that man? Why do you want this anxious, avoidant, selfish alcohol dependent man?
I don't know if it is that we're all just living in the past and want the people we married - not realising, or too blinded by hope - that they aren't there any more. Or if we're so guilt ridden about our own mistakes and shortcomings that we're prepared to accept very little in a relationship so long as there still is one? Or that we only see the bad side when we're angry, but in our calm moments, we know there's a lot more there. I think for me it is a bit of a mixture of all these things. There's a lot about my H I don't like, I don't want, and that he would need to work on before I would want him to come home.
But I think I know that my H is a gentle, baffled, confused man with shockingly poor self esteem who is desperate for his children to look up to him and me to admire him. I know he's incredibly shy and anxious and that he's determined to make some changes in his life to be a better father and start an exciting and worthwhile career. I know he's felt incredibly hurt and rejected by my behaviour, and acting hurt would make him too vulnerable so he acts angry instead. I see he's falling apart with stress and needs someone to lean on and he doesn't trust me to be that person right now.
I wonder how you see your H and if your H knows that you see him that way? Part of the way you describe him makes him very difficult to like (I feel really angry with him on your behalf sometimes!!). I wonder if a lot of his avoidance (and drinking is massive avoidance - avoiding yourself as well as everyone else) is to do with shame? He knows he's treated you and his children and himself absolutely abysmally and if you were to tell someone on the outside the bare facts, they would judge him harshly. I don't know what we do when our men feel ashamed, but apparently for men that is the worst possible feeling. For women it is abandonment, and for men it is shame.
Anyway - I am up early with the dog and just reflecting. Hope that's okay. Hope you are okay and you have a wonderful break with your children and that you're able to respond to anything that transpires with your H in a way you feel okay about.
I have some wifi and dh is off with the kids so I popped on here quickly. So far the holiday has been ok, pretty much like old family holidays. A few rough patches which we have smoothed over, but no real deep conversations so far (also no R talk, luckily). Dh and I shared a bed last night and even cuddled up a tiny bit (it was very cold). This afternoon we came back after a very nice lunch out at a town nearby. I had some wine with lunch and that gave me the courage to say what I was thinking all weekend. We came back to our accommodation with a nice lunch and wine inside us and that would usually be when we'd go and have sex and a nap. The best bit of a holiday... Well today dh was all for dragging off the kids to go swimming and then play tennis, I think to avoid the memories of what we'd usually do. I caught up with him, hugged him and said sex would be really, really nice. He evaded me a bit and then I looked at him and said 'I've been very, very patient, but I need sex. You need to think hard about how you'd feel about your wife having sex with other men, because whether you won't or can't give me sex, I have waited too long now and I really need it'. He said ok and then I went and changed into my bikini, showed him my new size 10 body (I might be in my mid 40s but I have a great body for my age, and he has always fancied me until last summer).
So anyway, I feel good about having laid down that boundary. I'm not desperate to have sex with anyone else, but I needed to tell him that I need it, it's been about 9 or 10 months now and honestly, I don't think I can wait much longer. He is a VERY competitive man, so if anything stirs the blood up, that ought to do it (I didn't do it to make him jealous, more to make him realise the reality of the situation, if he thinks I'm waiting forever he is wrong). I was honest with him, told him my boundary, didn't blame him and didn't threaten him (well, I don't think I did, what do others think??)
I'm conscious I initiated too many texts yesterday so I'm backing way off. It's hard to know what level to pitch it, being a distancer means I feel like I should pursue a little bit to show him I'm not distancing, but who knows, maybe he's just going through a thinking phase now work is quieter (he still has a bunch of work social stuff to attend though).
I am a distancer too so I know how tough it is. I think distancer also comes with not being able to show someone you appreciate them or telling them we think they're attractive. Even when we do both of these things, the resentment stops us from saying anything. So I am working on all three.
Not pursing so much, but saying thank you when he does something thoughtful (he sent me 22 photos last night from their two days at LEGOLAND) - "Thanks for sending the photos. They're great. I love the one of D12". I might sometimes initiate by sending him a text saying "How are the kids?" and this will start a small chain of texts telling me what they've all been up to. He always responds straight away and I am always the one to end it. Some days we don't text him at all - I have the kids today and have not heard hide nor hair from him. So, in answer to your question (and keeping in mind we are at different places with our H's), I would send a text when there is a reason , photos of the children doing something fun etc but when we are face to face, I engage him in conversation about what's happening in the news, or what he's been up to. The latter is a bit iffy. Back when he was acting like an alien, he went to get something from the store (5 mins away) and came back after 2 hours. When I asked him if he had gotten what he wanted he responded "Yes. And you don't need to ask". So, I am cautious asking him about him in case he sees it as prying or having a go. I make the odd comment like "I really like that jacket on you". Like I said, not over the top but enough to show I appreciate him and I notice when he looks nice.
Originally Posted by dillydaf
He has really piled the weight on again and must have been drinking a lot (even more than usual which is a lot). Oh well, I never thought leaving would make him more happy so I guess that shows in his body.
They either go one of two ways - they either turn to food and drink or they become gym junkies who suddenly know the calorie value of EVERYTHING. Both are a way of escaping their own tunnels. The guy who sits next to me at work (who has recently gone through a breakup) said that they only time he isn't thinking about her is when he is in the gym. He has now replaced this by spending all his time browsing dating apps and going on dates.
Originally Posted by dillydaf
I was hoping his MLC was abating but maybe it's just going into a different phase. He has shown much more interest in the kids and me compared with even a few months ago, but he's still clearly suffering.
You've probably read all the literature on MLC. It takes a long long time before they come out the other end (2 - 5 years). They will cycle back and forth through the stages until they have learned the less on they need to learn. It is painful for them and it [censored] as their spouse to watch them go through it. There is nothing you can do. You can't make it go faster. You can however not make it any worse. Be there when he needs you but only when he comes to you. Stay the course and continue working on you.
Originally Posted by dillydaf
I've been thinking about how to be during our weekend together, and I don't know yet. I will try to be calm and relaxed.
Calm and relaxed is the way to go. Be interested when he talks about things. Maintain eye contact. Be attractive (both physically and emotionally). Pretend you are just to date - how would you act? Avoid R talks. This is a weekend of getting to know one another again. If he mentions your relationship, then validate.
Like you said, calm and relaxed. I wouldn't mention sex. If it happens it happens. If it doesn't it doesn't. No expectations either way.
Originally Posted by dillydaf
I've been reading some of the success stories in the MLC forum, I can see a few real parallels with my sitch I think. I have to back off taking so much responsibility for this whole mess and remember that he has a lot of issues to work through from his childhood and also what the future will look like. I hope he hurries up with that...
I think this is perhaps true. You have taken a lot of responsibity for what went wrong and you are taking a lot of responsibility for fixing it.
I believe we all go through a transition, from young adult full of hopes and dreams, to realizing we are middle aged and wondering what happened to those hopes and dreams. How we deal with this transition has more to do with our internal psychology than our external environment. How we deal with the transition is built into us when we were young watching our parents interact with one another as well as where we saw ourselves in our friendship groups. The more 'broken' the upbringing and the more insecure the person, the harder the transition will be. My H never stood a chance.
Anyway, I think all I am trying to say is to take a little of the focus off of him and back onto you. Your H sounds like he is 'coming out of the fog', or at least not a spiteful alien spewing [censored] at every opportunity, so take it as it comes. Enjoy your time and be in the present with him, but when you're not together, reset so the focus is on you.
gosh - that's a surprise. I remember you saying you wanted to tell him, before the holiday, that you didn't expect sex as a way of taking the pressure off him... what happened to change your mind?
Still, I think you've shaken things up a bit. He can either be a husband, or not - and your patience for him having the benefits of your domestic wife work without any of the responsibilities of being a husband is wearing out, and you've told him that. I wonder if you'd want sex on those terms though? It sounds like what you were trying to say was something like, 'we're either married or we're not. And if you can't act married, I'm going to act single,' - but perhaps tying it to sex when you were all away raised the stakes a bit too high? I don't know - you know him best.
I hope it went well for you and that whatever transpired, you and the kids had a peaceful and relaxing time and you come home with a bit more clarity as to what comes next for you.
Thank you for your thoughts on distancing FS. I’ve been reading somewhere that in order to reach secure attachment distances have to go through a pursuer phase and vice versa for pursuers. So far so textbook for me. It’s no fun, I feel so insecure. Alison: I think I just had too many nice memories of holiday sex, plus it has been MONTHS AND MONTHS and I’m only human. Sigh. And I’m hormonal and everything is shutting down and I feel like I’ll never have sex again. Sigh. I messed up today, the rest of the weekend was lovely apart from the sex talk yesterday but this afternoon I had a total meltdown and separation anxiety and crying and being pathetic. And it ended in R talks on both sides and just ugh I am so stupid and over emotional. And dh cannot handle me being emotional at all and then I ended up apologising for all my many behaviours in the past, even though you’re right Alison, he has definitely contributed his fair share. Anyway I dropped him at the airport but I need to work out how to stop this separation anxiety, it’s so counterproductive and I feel about 3. Being middle aged is no fun. Not sure where I go from here, maybe I would be better off if he just left for good. He certainly expressed no desire to work on things but then he never has. Sigh. Ugh again .
Oh Dilly. It's really really really hard. Easy enough to see things cooly from the outside and be able to offer dispassionate suggestions and make pithy observations. Harder to be the person dealing with heartbreak and feelings of uncertainty and abandonment and rejection. I have cried and begged and pleaded and behaved with an utter lack of dignity in front of H - I've rang him over and over again. And each time I press dial I've gone 'if he doesn't answer I will never ever ever call him again' and I've called him again. I am glad that seems to be behind me now, but there are other crazy things I am still doing and will do in the future. We don't have to be perfect. And being perfect may not get us the result we want anyway. It's just fumbling through as best as we can. You are doing your best in a set of circumstances you can't control in a body experiencing changes and emotions you aren't always in command of. You are allowed to be human.
Thank you, yes. I think as usual my expectations were too high, I’m not patient enough, and I need to detach more. Things to work on, together with controlling my emotions. This rollercoaster never seems to slow down does it? I have to do something to take back some control over myself. Thank you for your words, they mean a lot.
Do you think you have more clarity now about where your H is in terms of you and your marriage? It doesn't sound like he responded to you warmly or even at all - that he was still in avoidance mode, even if he was there on the holiday. When you had the R talk, was he forthcoming about anything? Are you at a point where his lack of communication becomes a type of communication in itself? Perhaps its too early to know any of these things yet.
I think you might feel in more control if you made some decisions for yourself, rather than waiting for your H to make them. Did you mean it when you said you were considering dating other men? I think wanting love and sex and affection and an intimate relationship means you are alive. And it doesn't seem like your H has been able or willing to give any of that to you for a long time. Have you had any sense of that changing? Or even that he wants that to change and is taking steps to get there?
Dilly , patience is my Achille’s heel too . I try to find something to distract me otherwise it drives me loco .
This may not be helpful to you but I believe it is something to consider : I believe jealousy is one of the strongest emotions in men . I see many posts where the wah sped back when he thought that the lbw may have been dating.
Why not go for a coffee with a platonic male friend and see what happens ? Be careful though , you are still hurting and a wonderful caring woman .
I hope you realise what a great woman you are and how much your wah is going to lose unless he bucks his ideas up soon .
Alison: that’s exactly what my IC says, that dh’s lack of communication is in itself communication. Mainly of him being confused I think. When I said how insecure I feel that he keeps saying he doesn’t know if he wants to be married or not he said that actually he’s only said it twice. That’s true. The rest of the time I fill in the blanks, but I know I’m over optimistic so I realise what he doesn’t say is important. He did say he was nervous about coming on holiday with us, though he did also say he enjoyed most of it. But also that I ‘spoilt’ it by getting upset. That’s very Him of him to say, he can’t handle my negative emotions. Which is hilarious given all his negative emotions I’ve had to handle over the years...I did suggest he couldn’t handle me being upset, he did acknowledge that. He also kept saying that I was like a stranger. Well does he want a different marriage or not? The changing thing: last year dh was paradoxically both much more attentive but also distanced. For the first 6 months anyway, I thought our marriage was finally improving. He was much more affectionate and we even went to dinner for the first anniversary ever. Our 24th. Really, it’s taken me a long time to see rejection signs hasn’t it? Our sex life has mostly been ok, physically he has not been affectionate enough but with kids you get that anyway. Emotional intimacy: I’ve been as guilty as him I’m realising. So difficult to bare my soul in front of someone who has already rejected me and I don’t know whether to keep doing it, to hold myself back or somewhere in between. I’m also not sure he’s capable of reciprocating. So much uncertainty.
Try hard: this man is competitive to the max. I don’t want to manipulate him though. And I don’t feel ready to see other men yet. I do really need affection and sex though, so I might yet reach that point. I have a few platonic male friends anyway but again I don’t want to be fake about this.
I have 2 more days of holiday with the kids, we will have fun. I feel bad about melting down in front of them. Ds1 was very nice then and this evening, he’s so sweet but I can’t expose him to my pain too much. Tomorrow I will be stronger for them.
Also: I was trying sooo hard to validate driving him to the airport. But at one point he said ‘stop saying you can see how blah blah blah’. It was like he felt suspicious. I said ‘well you told me when I said I understand that I couldn’t possibly understand so I’m not saying that even though I’d like to understand and empathise with you’. That was not as generous as it sounded because I was quite upset at the time and trying not to dump my feelings on him. I tried ‘that sounds frustrating’ and ‘I agree’ where I could but I was so unbalanced it was difficult to do, plus difficult to not get defensive. I definitely didn’t attack him though which I might have done in the past. I also said that in the past I had been too independent and too insensitive and that I was swinging too far in the other direction to compensate. Which is true I think. I also said that some of this isn’t to do with him, which might also be true. I’m thinking a lot about family interactions and how I need to change with or without dh.
Ok, so you talked about control earlier Alison. I’m taking control. I’m pulling myself together again, and moving forward. First up: I’m going to give up wine for at least a few months. Wine doesn’t play well with my hormones, it destroys my already fragile sleep, and it makes me behave in ways I regret. Like yesterday. I considered giving up all alcohol but actually I don’t over drink when I have beer. 2 pints and that’s my limit, and it doesn’t make me maudlin. So that’s step 1. Step 2: focus on work, I’ve slipped a bit since my last big deadline but I have a lot to do. And it’ll take my mind off dh. Step 3: 5 minutes of daily yoga. I did this when dh first left and it was very useful. Step 4: make myself a list of steps to follow when I’m triggered, when I feel the need to contact dh, when I steer towards R talk. Step 5: more socialising. But not too much! I feel better already. I’ll start with yoga and a run after breakfast and I will get started on working. Dilly 2.0 is incoming, positive and in charge.
Ok ticked off everything except more yoga and the calming down steps today. Had a nice day with the teens and only contacted dh twice, mostly because he texted me 4 times and rang me once and was accusing me of ignoring him. Sigh. So many, many mixed messages, I find it so exhausting.
During my run I thought about yesterday and thought that actually my behaviour was too apologetic and pathetic. Whereas he didn’t take one jot of responsibility for his terrible behaviour in the past. And actually this weekend he was pretty grumpy, critical and short tempered. A lot like he has been for years. His ‘better man’ has not been much in evidence ironically since his busy time at work finished. How was he able to make an effort then but not now when the pressure is off? Or is it that being on holiday brings back old memories and habits? I don’t know but I’m not playing guessing games any more.
Anyway I was reflecting on Alison’s question a while back about why we’d be willing to put up with this terrible behaviour. And I’m not willing to any more. The man yesterday who was cranky and critical and kept rehashing his marital resentments is not someone I want to be married to. I’ve worked very hard to forgive him for his behaviour and to let go of my past resentments but if he can’t do the same then there’s not much worth saving.
So I guess I’m detaching again. I feel much better about this. I can’t be dragged into his negativity and an unhealthy dynamic. I’ve apologised enough, the rest is up to him to step up and be a better husband. He got a puncture on the way back from the airport and now he will have to sort out a new tyre which will be a massive hassle for him. If he’d been with me I would have done all of it and got no recognition because he’d be too busy accusing me of the one thing I hadn’t done instead of the millions of things I did do.
May half term: I now know he will be away on a cycling trip with colleagues and has expressed no interest in seeing the kids. Sounds like my cue to organise something for us 3 and leave him to drink himself stupid with a bunch of people who will enable him.
I think your last post shows really good progress. You are regaining control and your sense of self and individualism. You have worked incredibly hard to try to bow to his wants and emotions and take responsibility for any shortcomings on your part. To the exclusion of his shortcomings. Not everything that he does and says is because of something you've done or said wrong. Sometimes he's just being a di**.
You are a very insightful person but it was almost as if you put his shortcomings on the back burner and thought that if you just worked on yours then it would be fine. I suspect suppressing your own needs is historical?
It looks as if you have turned a little corner and are standing back and truly evaluating. You now feel that he has to do his bit of the fixing as well. I think that whilst you will still feel emotional, you will also feel very empowered.
I hope he steps up, because he's missing out on a great woman if he doesn't. But it is clear that you will be great whether he 'straps a pair on' and sorts his sh** out, or not.
Thanks for your thoughts Yorkie I think I haven't been focusing on his shortcomings really because a) I can't fix him, I have no control over him b) I can only look at my part in all this mess
I don't think I did believe that if I did my work it would all be ok, I just had hope that he would do his work (though gosh, wouldn't it be easier for him if he got HELP in doing that work...?) And I did see some positive signs from him, so maybe I got over hopeful. A constant theme for me. I feel like I can see this beautiful, intimate marriage between us and I so want it to happen I gloss over everything it will take to get there...
Suppressing my own needs: actually, I have historically been pretty good at looking after myself, at going out and GAL and being more than a wife and mother. That has been a marital battle between us, because dh has called me selfish for doing so. But yes, I probably have suppressed my own EMOTIONAL needs within our marriage, I have put up with too little intimacy and too much of him dominating the relationship. And part of that is me being a distancer and being independent and not wanting to let him get too close. Which I'm working hard to change, but again it's hard because I don't feel like I can trust dh yet.
What I need: to have some honest conversations with dh without either of us walking on eggshells. I walked on eggshells round him for years, and now he says that's how he feels. Ironic. I don't really know how to get the safety back in our relationship, but I can start by being vulnerable and honest but not over-emotional. Then it's up to him. We're going out to dinner as a family on Thursday night for ds1's birthday, then we are spending Good Friday to Easter Monday together. I don't know how that will play out. We both need some new ways of being with each other and to take down some of the walls. I hope he can step up and play his part. Anyway, I'm off to do my yoga and to work, and today we go back home. It's been a tiring holiday, I do wish in a way I hadn't asked dh along now. Maybe it's me that needs space as much as him...?
Dilly you are doing so well . You have a deep understanding of where you and dh are . It’s hard and draining , but you can do it , it will be worth it .
Was just pondering the phrase “ behind every great man is a great woman @ . Would being a cheerleader for the positive things and actions he does be a consideration for trying?
Dilly... you sound like you are doing well. Good for you. Also glad you are starting to realize that you deserve better than what your H has been giving you. My H was a jerk when he was home as well... I was walking on eggshells and I didn’t even really recognize it because I got so used to him being that way. Now I am on my own and I don’t have to do that anymore. It has been liberating. I hope things work out because I loathe to see families split - especially when there are kids involved. If it doesn’t work out, however, you will be just fine. (((HUGS)))
Dilly - you sound very strong. And it sounds like things need to change in your behaviour towards your H because he both doesn't want to lose you, but isn't willing to make himself vulnerable or change his behaviour. He hates it when he thinks you might be ignoring him - and of course you don't want to distance. I think a solution to that would be to tell him when you are taking some space from him. Would something like, 'I need a few days to think. I hate the way you spoke to me the last time we were together. I know you are tired and stressed but I don't deserve to get the brunt of your moods and I'm not tolerating it anymore. I will contact you when I am ready to be in touch,' work for you? It is clear and sets a boundary and I don't think it distances - you're not avoiding intimacy, you are protecting yourself from poor behaviour. They are really different things and I think if you (and me) had those straight in our heads we'd be able to make better decisions.
I know your H has a fear of abandonment and I know you don't want to trigger that. But you don't need to let that be your motivation. This is about you, not him. You are moving away from unacceptable behaviour. If he feels abandoned, he can reflect on that and figure out how to behave in ways that won't cause you to move away. It will probably get worse before it gets better. And if he's a problem drinker, it might not work at all - he'll have medicine to take away all the pain he might have been able to learn from. But at least you'll know, and at least you won't be subject to his moods.
The thing with being a distancer (and this is only from my own experience of being a distancer) is when we're hurt, we withdraw but we never say why. We expect those close to us to know they've hurt us and to amend their behavior accordingly. They might know instinctively what they've done, but unless you make it clear, then they will put it to the back of their minds (to protect their ego) and just think you're a moody [censored].
This is very different from setting boundaries. Setting boundaries is telling someone that their behavior is unacceptable and then telling them what the consequences of their behavior. There is no miscommunication. There is no him saying you're a moody [censored].
As Alison says, he can reflect or he can ignore it.
Originally Posted by dillydaf
What I need: to have some honest conversations with dh without either of us walking on eggshells. I walked on eggshells round him for years, and now he says that's how he feels.
This is not going to happen any time soon. If you force it now, it will end badly.
You are both a) fearful of hurting the other and b) fearful of getting hurt. Conversations like this can only happen when you feel comfortable enough to know that you can say what needs to be said, and you can hear what needs to be heard.
I don't think either of you are there yet. Focus on simply talking to one another again. Make him feel when he leaves that the interaction was a positive one. No R talks. Just normal everyday talk.
Originally Posted by dillydaf
I don't really know how to get the safety back in our relationship,
Time and {emotional} distance. Right now (and this is not meant to be harsh) you are dependent on him to make you happy. During the holiday you got upset. When he doesn't text you get upset. With time and distance you will discover that your happiness is not dependent on him. This releases your H from the responsibility of making you happy. And remember, he is a man running away from responsibility.
In the meantime, work on rebuilding a friendship. No pressure no expectations. If he texts, then respond in a friendly manner. If he doesn't text then try and pay it no mind - even when it is days since he last sent a text. Yes, he might think that you are distancing, but so what. He knows where you are.
Originally Posted by dillydaf
We're going out to dinner as a family on Thursday night for ds1's birthday, then we are spending Good Friday to Easter Monday together. I don't know how that will play out.
It will play out the way it plays out. Just be friendly happy Dilly who has no expectations and doesn't put any pressure on him. Pretend you are out with a family member (maybe a sister or a brother).
I am not saying this because I think it will make you more attractive to him (but it will) or take the pressure of him (which it does) but because it also takes the pressure of you. It will be tough. You will want to reach out to him. You will wonder what's going on but cast those thoughts aside. Change your mindset. You are there to celebrate S1's birthday. You are there to spend time together as a family. You are not there to reconcile.
Originally Posted by dillydaf
We both need some new ways of being with each other and to take down some of the walls.
Dilly, many here experience all sorts of unimaginable hatred from their spouses. Their spouses rage, call them terrible names, hide money, flaunt their affairs, act like teenagers, ignore them for days/weeks/months. And this isn't me minimising what you're going through - your H is being a self serving [censored] who is only thinking about himself and his pain right now. Your pain and longing is as real as any of us here.
What I am saying is you have an opportunity right now to start building a relationship with your H. But it starts with friendship (and tbh that's where it might end). Those walls will only fall once you become friends again. They will fall when he can look at you and see an attractive, independent woman who is not putting pressure on him to be someone he isn't sure he wants to be anymore.
Originally Posted by dillydaf
I hope he can step up and play his part.
He won't, or at least he won't for a long time. Be prepared for a long ride.
Dilly you are doing so well . You have a deep understanding of where you and dh are . It’s hard and draining , but you can do it , it will be worth it .
Was just pondering the phrase “ behind every great man is a great woman @ . Would being a cheerleader for the positive things and actions he does be a consideration for trying?
Tryhard: this is something I have been working on, being more appreciative of him as a person and for things he does for me. Case in point: the other day when he had my car he filled it up so I texted and thanked him. I have been more appreciative of everyone in my life actually, not just dh, I have made a big effort for it to become my new normal, to thank people in a meaningful way if they do something nice, and to give people positive, meaningful feedback about themselves. I think I really touched a few people with that (not dh lol, I'll keep working on that one)
Originally Posted by DejaVu6
Dilly... you sound like you are doing well. Good for you. Also glad you are starting to realize that you deserve better than what your H has been giving you. My H was a jerk when he was home as well... I was walking on eggshells and I didn’t even really recognize it because I got so used to him being that way. Now I am on my own and I don’t have to do that anymore. It has been liberating. I hope things work out because I loathe to see families split - especially when there are kids involved. If it doesn’t work out, however, you will be just fine. (((HUGS)))
Deja: thank you. I don't want to go back there again, I don't think he does either actually. I mean, he wasn't like that all the time or anything, but it was a good 6 months of most years and got worse and worse over the years, he was stuck in a right negative spiral and I didn't respond well to it. I thought I was being assertive and actually I was just defensive, I've never been good at conflict though I'm improving my assertiveness a lot since this happened. His behaviour was pretty intolerable at times though, to the kids as well as me. In a way I'm paradoxically glad I got to see the old him because yuck, he wasn't nice. He was firmly in victim mode and blaming everything on me. I did spend quite a few years actually thinking about leaving him. Maybe I should have, but I wasn't brave enough. I just kind of ignored him and continued on with my life and was reasonably happy when he wasn't around. I used to dread him coming home from work for quite a few years, that's pretty awful isn't it?
Dilly - you sound very strong. And it sounds like things need to change in your behaviour towards your H because he both doesn't want to lose you, but isn't willing to make himself vulnerable or change his behaviour. He hates it when he thinks you might be ignoring him - and of course you don't want to distance. I think a solution to that would be to tell him when you are taking some space from him. Would something like, 'I need a few days to think. I hate the way you spoke to me the last time we were together. I know you are tired and stressed but I don't deserve to get the brunt of your moods and I'm not tolerating it anymore. I will contact you when I am ready to be in touch,' work for you? It is clear and sets a boundary and I don't think it distances - you're not avoiding intimacy, you are protecting yourself from poor behaviour. They are really different things and I think if you (and me) had those straight in our heads we'd be able to make better decisions.
Yes Alison, I agree with that, that's kind of similar to what FS said below about us distancers not saying why we're withdrawing but just doing it and then causing hurt. Yes, that would be a good approach, I was thinking if his behaviour isn't great over Easter that I will ask for a bit of space from him. And yes, I agree that avoiding intimacy and self-protection have different aims...
Originally Posted by AlisonUK
I know your H has a fear of abandonment and I know you don't want to trigger that. But you don't need to let that be your motivation. This is about you, not him. You are moving away from unacceptable behaviour. If he feels abandoned, he can reflect on that and figure out how to behave in ways that won't cause you to move away. It will probably get worse before it gets better. And if he's a problem drinker, it might not work at all - he'll have medicine to take away all the pain he might have been able to learn from. But at least you'll know, and at least you won't be subject to his moods.
Yes, I agree with that too. This is the first time so far that he has behaved badly since he left actually, though it has felt weird and like he's a stranger sometimes, it has been good to see that he was actually able to control his temper and critical behaviour. I guess maybe I expected too much for him to keep that up for 3 days and I played my part in it too by having my emotional meltdown. I regret that. He wasn't horrible the whole time but he certainly had his guard up and then the drive to the airport was horrible.
The thing with being a distancer (and this is only from my own experience of being a distancer) is when we're hurt, we withdraw but we never say why. We expect those close to us to know they've hurt us and to amend their behavior accordingly. They might know instinctively what they've done, but unless you make it clear, then they will put it to the back of their minds (to protect their ego) and just think you're a moody [censored].
This is very different from setting boundaries. Setting boundaries is telling someone that their behavior is unacceptable and then telling them what the consequences of their behavior. There is no miscommunication. There is no him saying you're a moody [censored].
As Alison says, he can reflect or he can ignore it.
Originally Posted by dillydaf
What I need: to have some honest conversations with dh without either of us walking on eggshells. I walked on eggshells round him for years, and now he says that's how he feels.
This is not going to happen any time soon. If you force it now, it will end badly.
You are both a) fearful of hurting the other and b) fearful of getting hurt. Conversations like this can only happen when you feel comfortable enough to know that you can say what needs to be said, and you can hear what needs to be heard.
I don't think either of you are there yet. Focus on simply talking to one another again. Make him feel when he leaves that the interaction was a positive one. No R talks. Just normal everyday talk.
Originally Posted by dillydaf
I don't really know how to get the safety back in our relationship,
Time and {emotional} distance. Right now (and this is not meant to be harsh) you are dependent on him to make you happy. During the holiday you got upset. When he doesn't text you get upset. With time and distance you will discover that your happiness is not dependent on him. This releases your H from the responsibility of making you happy. And remember, he is a man running away from responsibility.
In the meantime, work on rebuilding a friendship. No pressure no expectations. If he texts, then respond in a friendly manner. If he doesn't text then try and pay it no mind - even when it is days since he last sent a text. Yes, he might think that you are distancing, but so what. He knows where you are.
Originally Posted by dillydaf
We're going out to dinner as a family on Thursday night for ds1's birthday, then we are spending Good Friday to Easter Monday together. I don't know how that will play out.
It will play out the way it plays out. Just be friendly happy Dilly who has no expectations and doesn't put any pressure on him. Pretend you are out with a family member (maybe a sister or a brother).
I am not saying this because I think it will make you more attractive to him (but it will) or take the pressure of him (which it does) but because it also takes the pressure of you. It will be tough. You will want to reach out to him. You will wonder what's going on but cast those thoughts aside. Change your mindset. You are there to celebrate S1's birthday. You are there to spend time together as a family. You are not there to reconcile.
Originally Posted by dillydaf
We both need some new ways of being with each other and to take down some of the walls.
Dilly, many here experience all sorts of unimaginable hatred from their spouses. Their spouses rage, call them terrible names, hide money, flaunt their affairs, act like teenagers, ignore them for days/weeks/months. And this isn't me minimising what you're going through - your H is being a self serving [censored] who is only thinking about himself and his pain right now. Your pain and longing is as real as any of us here.
What I am saying is you have an opportunity right now to start building a relationship with your H. But it starts with friendship (and tbh that's where it might end). Those walls will only fall once you become friends again. They will fall when he can look at you and see an attractive, independent woman who is not putting pressure on him to be someone he isn't sure he wants to be anymore.
Originally Posted by dillydaf
I hope he can step up and play his part.
He won't, or at least he won't for a long time. Be prepared for a long ride.
I agree with all of that FS. I used to accuse him of thinking I was a mind reader but apparently I was equally guilty! I have been better since this happened at boundaries, but clearly I need to keep working on my assertiveness, old habits die hard. Trying to do it when I'm triggered is the hardest of all, that's probably what I have to work on the most. I've started on not running away and a few times I've said why I've gone cold, but not in the moment. Maybe a goal.
I agree, I can't force it now, absolutely. In some ways I feel like we were making progress before towards friendship and reconnection, we were quite relaxed with each other and there was plenty of banter via text and stuff. I don't know what happened to make things get worse again? I need to think about that, it might have been both of us. I definitely started getting insecure and impatient and maybe pressuring too much and it sent him backwards, I don't know. Or maybe he started getting feelings for me again and didn't trust either of us to have changed, who knows. Maybe it doesn't matter why, I just need to step back and stop thinking about R and get on with things.
I'm also not sure how much longer I can live without physical affection and sex. If you're younger then maybe you feel like you can wait longer, but I feel like literally everything is shrivelling up. Perimenopause truly is a horrible time!
Easter: I will try my very best to be relaxed and chilled out. Not drinking wine will definitely help with this, I will stay strong on that rule!
Update: I sent dh a friendly text about the weather this morning and was then travelling all day. Got home very late (after 11) and saw a message asking if we'd got back. I'd been driving so hadn't seen it. Then he'd sent two more saying that his phone was on do not disturb because he was driving and to text him with the word urgent so it could get through. I figured he goes to bed early so I didn't want to wake him up so won't reply tonight, but I did find it funny that he must have pulled over just to send those texts. Mixed messages, see? He won't commit to loving me or even talking about trying to love me, but the thought of anything happening to me scares him. The other day I cut myself with a knife cooking and his intake of breath was much sharper than mine. Bizarre beyond words.
OK so it's 8am and since I texted him this morning to say we arrived home ok he has texted me 6 times and rung me once. Is this him apologising for how he was over the weekend? Maybe. A few of them were about logistics things but some of the questions were expressing an interest in my work (I have a half yearly review this morning which I'm prepping for). Truly weird, but I'm quite detached about it and not reading too much into it (think I've been guilty of this in the past). I had a dream last night that dh had an accident and broke his arm and I was upset about it. And then he said he'd fallen over drunk and hurt himself again, and he was wearing a cycle helmet to protect his head in case he fell over again. I woke up halfway through this dream and was thinking it means he's damaged in the head and needs to be treated with care and empathy. Well, that was one interpretation anyway, the other is that he's an alcoholic incapable of looking after himself properly (I did say that the other day, well I said I wished he was able to work less so he could look after himself more and he said he was just an alcoholic but work doesn't stress him out too much. Hmmm)
Operation Dilly 2.0 Worked my socks off yesterday on the ferry. Got up at 6 to do more work. Yoga later and a run with a friend to see the spring flowers, lots of gardening and housework and laundry. I'm going to text dh at some stage and say 'I don't think we were our best selves in France, I'm going to be my best self over Easter, starting with not drinking wine because it messes with my head'. Thoughts on that? I would like to reassure him that I will be safe to spend time with after last weekend, so that we can both be more relaxed. I still need to make my list of emotional control tactics, and memorise the top few ones. Been listening to some really useful podcasts about this on repeat!
Feeling knackered but quite positive today, I think all the fresh air and nature on holiday was helpful to my state of mind despite a few rocky moments.
I think he's temp checking. He knows you made yourself vulnerable, he knows you were putting yourself out there, and he's afraid that he blew it. So he's making sure you're still on the hook. And he's scared he pushed you too far or rejected you too much. Now might be the time to respond honestly and let him know that yes, you are disappointed by his behaviour and you're considering your best options as to how to do forward and would like some space and time to do that.
Have you done much reading about alcoholism, Dilly? I have it in my family which is why I feel comfy speaking to it on your thread. It might not apply, and might not be useful to you - but one of the things that is often said is that it is a family illness - enabled by immediate family and damaging family as much as the addict. The family need recovery as much as the addict does.
Apparently someone with a problematic relationship to a substance or activity can't really have an intimate relationship - their primary relationship is with their substance or activity (gambling, sex, crack, work, porn - whatever - booze will probably kill you quicker than most of the other substances or activities but the way it works is pretty much the same.) They also say that the person who wants the intimate relationship with the addict probably doesn't really want an intimate relationship - they'd choose someone available if that was the case - and in the end they have a relationship with the substance at second hand, which is also called co-dependency or enabling.
I know it all sounds a bit weird - but in my experience it really is like this. My father was a drinker, and I've had to address a lot of this in my IC and it still shows up in my way of relating to other people - particularly men - even if they aren't drinkers - so it can be really deep rooted.
It's interesting your H says he's an alcoholic. There's such a huge stigma about that that people very rarely use it as a self-deprecating joke unless they secretly do mean it, or are trying to evade responsibility for their behaviour (aka: 'it's not my fault I was mean to you - I'm just an alcoholic, what do you expect?')
OK so it's 8am and since I texted him this morning to say we arrived home ok he has texted me 6 times and rung me once. Is this him apologising for how he was over the weekend? Maybe. A few of them were about logistics things but some of the questions were expressing an interest in my work (I have a half yearly review this morning which I'm prepping for). Truly weird, but I'm quite detached about it and not reading too much into it (think I've been guilty of this in the past).
He needs you to like him. No more no less. Respond to the texts in a friendly none threatening / non pursuing manner - in the same way you would respond to a friend.
Originally Posted by dillydaf
I had a dream last night that dh had an accident and broke his arm and I was upset about it. And then he said he'd fallen over drunk and hurt himself again, and he was wearing a cycle helmet to protect his head in case he fell over again. I woke up halfway through this dream and was thinking it means he's damaged in the head and needs to be treated with care and empathy. Well, that was one interpretation anyway, the other is that he's an alcoholic incapable of looking after himself properly (I did say that the other day, well I said I wished he was able to work less so he could look after himself more and he said he was just an alcoholic but work doesn't stress him out too much. Hmmm)
My take ... you want to fix him. You see yourself as the savior and him the one who needs saving. But Dilly, you need to save you. You can only save you. Let him be.
You sound like you are doing great in other aspects of your life, but it is only half a life. Focus on you. If you knew your H wasn't coming back where would you be in 12 months?. What would be your goals?
Originally Posted by dillydaf
I'm going to text dh at some stage and say 'I don't think we were our best selves in France, I'm going to be my best self over Easter, starting with not drinking wine because it messes with my head'. Thoughts on that? I would like to reassure him that I will be safe to spend time with after last weekend, so that we can both be more relaxed.
Yes, he will be anxious about the time you're planning to spend together this weekend. But I am not sure telling him a) he wasn't on his best self in France and b) that your not drinking going to relax him and make him feel safe to spend time with you. He will be anxious regardless, and with a text like that, he will feel pressured to be on better behavior and well, the second part can be taken as a dig at his drinking.
Don't send him anything. You be your best self when you are with him. Consistent actions not words. If he is a [censored] that's on him.
Re the lack of physical intimacy. I remember reading about an experiment where they took baby monkeys and gave them a choice of either a stuffed toy shaped like a monkey or a milk from a metal bowl. They chose the warmth of the teddy over the milk. They nearly starved rather than eat. We all need to feel loved. But you are not a baby monkey. You have the capacity to get through this. But first, you have to put aside your insecurities and learn to be on your own.
FS: I don’t want to be on my own. I feel like I’ve been on my own for years, and now my kids are teens it’s even more obvious that I’m on my own. This BD has taught me that I’ve had enough of being on my own, I need more company and physical comfort. And now I’ve learnt it I’m not going back. I think you’re right about not saying anything in advance though FS. I disagree about wanting to fix him, to me my dream said show him kindness and empathy, he has problems accepting those but I can show them anyway. In 12 months I have zero idea where I will be, in 6 months I finish up my massive project and it’s mostly over. I’ll have a huge gap in my life and no plan yet of what to do afterwards. Probably recover for a few months first then assess! I’m not worrying about that now, I have plenty of resources to do whatever I like really. I’m comfortable with that particular uncertainty, I’m very good at filling my life with many activities.
Alison: you’re right it was a temp check. But I don’t think yesterday was the time to say I was disappointed in his behaviour, it needed to be said nearer the time. Like you don’t punish a kid 2 days after they’ve done something wrong because then it’s not learning. If he behaves like that again I will be letting him know. My behaviour was not ideal though either, we should both take responsibility.
Re the alcoholism, when we met he obviously wasn’t an alcoholic! He didn’t drink that much till his job got more and more senior and he had more and more money for nice wine. He sees it as his one vice, his one comfort. He’s tried to stop over the years, always in January which is a stressful time at work. His work culture revolves round macho drinking so I don’t know how much is him and how much is years of that. Maybe you’re right that I didn’t want an intimate relationship, being a distancer meant I was ok with that. I’m not ok with it any more.
Anyway, we’re out for the birthday dinner tonight. I haven’t had any wine since Sunday and my sleep is so much better for it. I think it’s common in perimenopause to drink too much because your stress response deteriorates, I have a friend a few years older than me who struggles when she never did before. It’s a complicated time and not just the hormones. I’ve done my daily yoga and had a good review yesterday. Now to tackle the house before more work, very busy day ahead.
So the birthday dinner last night. I’ve realised I have a huge problem with birthdays because dh has pretty much ignored mine over the years. For example: for his 40th, we went to Switzerland for a week. For mine: I got a plastic ring and chicken and chips in a Spanish campsite. I mean seriously?? Then last year he went away for my birthday and rang me, then rang me back to apologise for forgetting my birthday, his friend had reminded him. I was ok about it at the time but now I’m incandescent every time I remember. So yes, birthdays seem to be a huge trigger for me. Ick.
So we went to meet dh for dinner, had a nice meal but he’d been in a meeting with colleagues he hates all day, and he was tired after getting back late from France on Sunday. He ordered a bottle of wine before I had a chance to say I wasn’t going to have any, so I ended up having 2 glasses (not big ones but still) and then I got loud-mouthed and annoying according to the kids. Ugh. Plus I didn’t sleep that well and had a hot flush during the night which I’ve avoided the last few nights. Anyway it got to 9 and I realised we had to rush to get the train or we’d get home a whole hour later so I dragged the kids out and rushed off. He looked very abandoned. Then one station entrance was shut so he caught us up at the station and I said we would miss our connection so he said get a taxi so we rushed off and just made it. He didn’t text me as he usually does to check we got the train. The thing is: he CHOSE this! We could easily have all stayed at his flat last night So I felt angry about that. I feel angry a lot right now. I’m back in victim mode and flailing about a bit. I want to get to a calmer place somehow but I’m not sure how.
Off for Easter weekend today, I have gardening and housework first. I’m definitely enforcing the no wine rule from now on, I should have told him in advance after all. The weather is nice and we can get out for some lovely walks, hopefully we can feel safer again, he can cook some nice meals and we can relax in each other’s company again. I’m going to make that list now.
I don’t want to be on my own. I feel like I’ve been on my own for years, and now my kids are teens it’s even more obvious that I’m on my own. This BD has taught me that I’ve had enough of being on my own, I need more company and physical comfort. And now I’ve learnt it I’m not going back.
Read this again. I want you to objectively, through the eyes of the intelligent capable woman I know you are and then tell me what you see.
You are trying to swim against the tides. Let go. Your H cannot give you what you want. He is incapable. You know it and more importantly HE knows it. So, when he sees you, all that longing and desperation etched on your face, his own inability to meet those needs are reflected at him.
Give him space so he can work on him without the pressure of having to meet your needs as well. He needs to fix him. Then and only then will he be in a position to be the man you want him to be.
In the meantime, work on you. Work out what it is you fear and then face it. Dilly, being alone is not the same as being lonely. How can you expect someone to like being alone with you if you don't like being alone with you.
Re the physical comfort. You are not a child. You talk about things shriveling up. If all you are missing is intimacy, then there are a host of options available. Manual, electronic and straight male escort agencies to name a few. If you want something a little more real, then there are apps simply to facilitate 'hook-ups'.
But it isn't the physical intimacy is it? It's the last phone call of the day. It's sitting under a blanket on a Sunday morning watching rubbish TV. It's a cup of tea when you're feeling down. This is fear of being alone again. If you want to read about fear, go back through DV's thread. DV (and I dont' think she'd mind me saying this) was almost paralazed by her fear (growing old alone, losing her children 50% of the time, her children growing up with divorced parents). It was going to be a terrible future UNLESS she reconciled. But she let go. And her updates are now the highlight of my morning.
Re your dinner. Even if he bought the wine, it is still possible to say "No thanks. I'm not drinking tonight". You had that first glass. You had that second glass. You did that. Take responsibility, forgive yourself, and say you'll do better next time. Then let it go.
He didn't invite you to stay at his flat ... why, did you expect him to??.
Dilly, I know it may seem that I am being harsh. I do it because I see me. I see all those people who started here at the same time as me. We have all taken different trajectories. But we are all OK. And we did that because we let go. Not of necessarily of our H's, but of trying to save our R's.
You ask how do you get to calmer seas ... stop fighting it ... float and let the sea take you where it will. Leave him to him and put the focus on you.
thanks for your thoughts FS. I don't think I'm ready to reply to them yet, I need to think about things.
Yesterday was stressful, I had an awful lot to do before going away so I worked very hard at gardening and getting the house in order, as it was still topsy turvy after the holiday. I said to dh that since I had a lot to get done we might as well travel down together. Now I wish we hadn't, he got stuck in horrendous traffic and was very stressed and kept ranting about how much time he had wasted in his car (he could have caught the train in 2 hours...). He drove like a maniac for us to make our train connection and he was pretty unpleasant company. I mostly ignored his behaviour, he wasn't actively attacking me, just ranting. I validated and he snapped back, difficult to validate someone who apparently doesn't want validating. The kids were in the back probably feeling very uncomfortable. This is why we hate travelling with him...
In the evening he made us both a very nice meal and I said I didn't want wine. He said fine, then offered me one later with dinner and I said no. I had a pint at the pub and a small bottle of lower alcohol beer with dinner (no hot flushes in bed thank goodness). He drank quite a lot and was very critical of the way I was cutting up the chicken. I agreed that I'm not good at carving. He then said something very cutting about me 'butchering' the chicken, not sure if he was trying to get a reaction or just be nasty for the sake of it, but it was cruel the way he said it. I thought about not being defensive, I thought about being assertive, then I thought there was no point in either if he was drunk. So I just thanked him for a delicious dinner and went and tidied up the dinner things. He was talking about some weird stuff about old people who hold inheritance over their families (my mum, my grandma, his mum), then a few minutes later he was saying he wanted to look into leaving the kids some property to avoid death duties in case he died early. I said it was unlikely he would die early, his dad died in his early 60s but he smoked 2 packets of cigarettes a day for 50 years. He said something about alcohol not being as bad as cigarettes. Definite denial plus MLC thoughts of mortality stuff going on there! Maybe that was why he was being unpleasant, I don't know.
Last night and this morning he was shouting down the stairs about people making too much noise in the kitchen (tidying up the kitchen is noisy, and he was watching telly very loudly). I hung out with ds2 a bit and then went to bed early to read my book. He joined me fairly early and said goodnight and then snored loudly. This morning I decided to go for a run and he offered to walk down to the bottom of the hill with me but I said no thanks. Then I went for my run and pondered why I would tolerate the behaviour he demonstrated yesterday and whether I do actually want to be married to someone who chooses wine over family. I'm unsure. He seems to have lapsed into old habits in the last few weeks, and I don't like this version of him. He went off for a long cycle while I was out and texted me a photo of the view and said it was hard work and asked me how my run was.
Positives: I like him cooking for me, I feel nurtured and looked after when he does that. I was quite unemotional, even in bed I didn't try cuddling up or anything, just kept to my side of the bed. I feel fairly calm and in control, and not drinking helps this.
Negatives: all the rest. If he keeps behaving like this I will need to think about how to put in a boundary against his critical behaviour. I will also be happy to see the back of him when he leaves tomorrow.
Hey dilly , I am very sorry that you had to endure what must have been a very stressful and difficult journey and day and night . I think FS has some points to consider if you feel they relate to you and if so they would be very useful , but I get the feeling they are not matching up with your feelings and emotions.
I am a great fan of doing what works so here’s me butting in with my size 10’s
1) travelling :- it seems both sides know travelling together doesn’t work . Don’t do it ?
2) you felling nurtured with the meal :- I don’t feel a thanks and walk away was enough gratitude. High praise on the meal might encourage him to do more of it ? This also leads onto the situation afterwards regarding the kitchen noise , do you concur ?
3) you went for a run , why ? He went for a cycle , why do you think you BOTH did ?
All that aside please try to free yourself from negative thoughts and take a breather , relax and enjoy yourself .
On a selfish note , do you think I use too many commas, in the wrong places ?
that sounds really hard. I wonder if it's just too much right now - the holiday and the weekend together - even if you were controlling your expectations as well as you could, it sounded like he was pretty critical and hard work which might meant he had expectations of his own that weren't being met. You can't do anything about that at all - and his expectations might be entirely unreasonable anyway - but perhaps he just can't do family life right now, even in tiny doses?
It sounds - if I am honest - he is struggling with basic civility most of the time. I know you're thinking about what FS said, so I won't say more - other than - it's hard to see, from your description of your interactions this Easter and also over the past few weeks - what you get out of contact with him apart from keeping hope alive. At his best he is detached and self absorbed and sometimes needy. At his worst he's rude, blaming and incredibly critical. What's does seeing him offer you?
That's great news that the drinking - or lack of it - helped your health and hot flushes and also your sense of being centred and grounded. I don't drink so that hasn't been a challenge for me, but I stopped smoking at the start of Lent. I've already noticed a really strong improvement in my skin, my health, my energy, my sleeping, how sweet smelling I am. And after the first couple of weeks of crabbiness, I've also noticed my emotions are a bit more even - I don't feel snappy because I 'want a fag' and I'm not sneaking away and having them in secret around the kids any more then feeling ashamed about that. It's been such a kind and good thing to do for myself.
Maybe you refusing wine made your H feel judged about his own drinking. If so, that's on him and not you - nothing you need to do there, I think, other than continue to make healthy decisions for your own physical and emotional well being.
Yes I hadn’t considered that he would get strung up about me not drinking actually. I told him though that both nights I slept without hot flushes so he can respect that for sure. Hot flushes in the night are awful, but the other night I had a much worse thing where I woke up burning in the night having had a nightmare, that was even worse. I broke my wine rule today because we went for lunch and I figured it was far enough away from bedtime that I would be ok, plus dh was leaving straight after lunch too so no chance of getting over emotional.
So it’s been a weird weekend. Yesterday I was mostly calm until dh came back and was super critical and I totally lost it and threw a mug across the room and stormed off. I apologised later and asked to start again. He cooked a nice meal. I did make a fuss about BOTH meals, Tryhard! This is a 180 because he is usually critical of my cooking (actually most domestic things I do) so I’m appreciative of his cooking nowadays. Later on he said I’d over reacted and I agreed. Still later I plucked up the courage to say that I can’t handle criticism or him making out I’m not good enough, and that if he has constructive criticism then I’m open to it but just plain critical comments I find hurtful. I suggested that at work he’s good at making constructive comments and maybe he could bring that into his marriage. He didn’t say anything but I felt I’d made my point fairly assertively given how upset I was about his behaviour this weekend (bordering on harsh a few times). Last night I went to sit with the kids and dh got upset that I’d not told him I was leaving the room, I apologised about that (he was flitting between the kitchen and the barbecue anyway and mostly ignoring me). We had a nice meal, then I went to bed super early. He joined me later. In the night I felt him softening so I snuggled up this morning and he didn’t push me away (that sounds pathetic, I realise, but you can tell when someone is flinching from you or tolerating you and it was nicer than that, difficult to explain though). In the morning he was quite attentive, asked if I’d slept ok and made me a coffee in bed. Then he suggested I went for a run and he’d walk out to join me. We had a nice walk back, then a lovely meal with the kids at a restaurant I’d booked which he really liked. We hugged goodbye and he left with ds1. So a mixed weekend, the first 2 days were tricky but today was nice and ended on a good note. I don’t really know what to make of any of this. There was some weird stuff he said about dying early (his dad did, mostly because he smoked like a chimney). I’m giving him a few more weeks then I think I’m moving on, I need to see progress from him in order to have hope. In a way more time together was both good (because we relaxed eventually) and bad (because there was negative behaviour from both of us). I dunno.
Hey dilly , sounds like things are getting much better, take it slowly and keep your expectations in check . Of course I am going to take all the credit for the positive upswing . Keep going , you are strong , you can do it.
Lol such modesty Tryhard I’m not sure it’s ‘much better’ but we’ve navigated 3 days together with less turbulence than the previous week so we’ll see how things go. I have IC next week and I’m keen to keep working on my own stuff. Tomorrow and Tuesday I have stacks of work to do but will also hang out with ds2 as well. In the meantime the weather is gorgeous and it’s hard to be upset about anything. Btw, the running and cycling yesterday, they were both planned activities by both of us. Dh has also taken up running since he left, which I find ironic as he keeps saying we have ‘nothing in common’ during any R talk. Erm, other than my main hobby and now his major form of exercise which he says he misses when he’s injured! The man is a moving contradiction.
I was watching a tv show last night and something a character said really resonated with me. ‘This is your life you’re living right now, you’re in it’. This is going to be my mantra from now on when my thoughts turn to the future. I can’t control the future anyway. The other thing I was thinking is that the longer I stay married the better off I will be financially if it comes to D (I think, assuming everything we have is split 50/50). So if I get impatient and want to push things, maybe I should remind of that.
I’ve decided I need to take more action on socialising. I’ll start by looking around for more events to go to. This is the life I’m in, time to make the most of it.
I like that phrase. Something that has come to me over the past few weeks is that I've been waiting a long time to enjoy my life. It's always been, 'I'll be happy when I've got this promotion,' or 'when we've moved house' or 'when the kids are out of nappies' or whatever. The last couple of years it's been 'when my marriage is better'. Actually, I just want to enjoy my life today because there's so much good in it and I deserve it and you do too. I like the idea of socialising. Do you mean dating, or just getting out and GAL with others?
Ready to change has a great list of additional books after the great MWD books . Men are from Mars ..... is a good one ........ I am sure someone as educated as yourself has come across it , have you read it recently?
I would add The Subtle Art of Not Giving a F*** to your reading list. Hard to describe but it makes you look at how we measure our happiness.
Socialising is hard purely because at the start it is forced. It feels orchestrated and fake. A part of us also keeps checking to see if THEY have noticed and what effect it is having on THEM. But stick with it. Make the effort with other people, stay out a little longer even if what you really want is to go home and crawl under a blanket. It pays off. I had my first birthday party in 20 years last year. I booked a cocktail making masterclass, invited some of the mums (even though I didn't know them that well) and had a brilliant night. I also organised birthday drinks after work with colleagues past and present. I took all the birthday cards I received and lined them up like soldiers on the side. They were up for about three weeks. Every time I felt down, I looked at those cards and thought "I can do this" **.
** I normally only get five cards (D9, D12, H, MIL and SIL).
Alison: that sounds very much like my dh, whereas I’ve always been a ‘live in the moment, don’t bother planning’ sort of person, last year Ds2 and I went away and we bought maps on the ferry and changed our minds every few days, it was wonderful... This crisis has turned me into a planner! I prefer my previous spontaneous self I think. Things mostly turn out ok if you don’t plan and sometimes those are the most memorable times, maybe I need to make the most of dh not being around given he’s the one usually obsessed with the future and with planning
The socialising is not dating but just doing stuff with other new people. I work at home and it’s super isolating so I need to organise social stuff I think. I’m not good left to my own devices. And meeting new people energises me, though I hate too much routine. I’m pretty good at chatting to random strangers (I just went to the pub and bumped into a random Irish geezer who bought me lots of drinks last time I was there, funnily enough he wasn’t so friendly when I was there with my teen). So I think I need new people and structure in my life at the same time. I don’t think this was what my life was lacking before, the whole GAL thing perplexes my IC because as he points out I’ve always had a very busy and full life. Maybe I even used that to distance my dh? I can see how my mum does that though I’m not as extreme as her. So I’m remaining open to new people, sticking with my friends and yet still reserving space for my dh, it’s a juggling act. So I’m not sure I’m that similar to you FS in terms of socialising. I admire you so much though for organising your birthday bash! That’s fantastic And I’ve realised celebrating is something none of my family (either birth nor with dh) has done well and is something I’m planning to do a 180 on. I started by organising ds2’s birthday shindigs and ds1’s birthday dinner, both memorable occasions. More of these to come. Though our 25th wedding anniversary is the next one. Awkward! Maybe I’ll organise a party with all our old friends anyway and hope dh turns up lol. I’ve realised that dh and I have been awful at seeing joint friends over the years, it’s been my friends or some joint old friends but never truly joint new friends, I’ve been better at making new friends than him but he’s tended to shun my friends until recently. His friends are long-standing but also socioeconomically inferior which is weird. On the one hand loyalty is good, but on the other how sad not to trust colleagues. With great power comes great isolation.
I’ve not read either of those books but love a good self help book, I even listen to a podcast where they live By The Book and give their verdicts, sadly they hated your recommendation FS! I’ve read a book with a similar title though which I loved...
There's probably a happy medium between planning the life out of your life, and going with the flow - especially when you're sharing a life with someone else who is at the other end of the spectrum! I know I enjoy planning and structure, but I also tend to defer leisure and pleasure until some imaginary time when I've 'earned' it and I really want to stop that. I'm not so good at socialising, but I tend to crave time alone rather than company, and prefer one on one company to parties etc. I am making sure to be in contact with a friend every day (I work at home at a lot too) and I think that is doing me good already.
That's a good goal to have, Alison, having daily contact with a friend. I don't think I quite have that, because my friends work odd days and travel and so on. Funnily enough the school holidays are the hardest for that sort of thing because the teens aren't very talkative and my friends are off with their families. So now the kids are back to school tomorrow it's back to normal. I have IC tomorrow, a big work deadline, then meeting a friend for a run on Thursday and another on Friday, dh is coming home Thursday night to see ds2 in a school performance. I'm thinking about just heading upstairs to the sofa bed and not even bothering asking him if he wants to share a bed. I feel the need to pull back a little but not sure why, I think because I haven't seen that much progress from him lately. Our 25th is in July, it would be nice to celebrate it but who knows. I have been thinking hard today about how ambivalent dh has been about our whole family for quite a long time now, it's really very very sad. I don't know how much of it is his work taking over his life and how much is damage from his past, but either way I wish I had shown more compassion earlier and maybe forced him to take action earlier instead of thinking things would improve. I don't know whether that would have worked though. Working out how much of this is me, how much is him and how much is us is a very tricky task I think.
Dilly 2.0 progress: I backslid on the wine the last 2 days, because there was some left in the fridge by dh. I should have poured it away. I've done some work but not enough, I have felt very distracted. Emotionally I have been a bit fragile but maybe that is as a result of spending quite a lot of time with dh over the last 10 days, far more than actually for 2 years I just realised? I also got my period today so that might also be a factor, these things turn up in mysterious ways nowadays and I never know when to expect one or not. Considering the hormones I've probably been remarkably calm actually, because the hormones have hit me like a truck the last few months. I'm going to yoga tonight so that will help a lot, then tomorrow I will throw myself into work big time to meet this deadline. I'm doing ok all things considered, feeling fairly patient and accepting but also not sure how long this will last. I feel like I'm holding on tight to dh again right now, not sure why. I feel like if we can get through this we can have a much better marriage, but I don't know whether he's capable of putting the work in. That's beyond my control, and something I really do have to accept.
I don't know but you can't change the past anyway. He did have a mini BD a few years back, he had this huge thing at work and he couldn't handle it at all and was unbelievably horrible to live with, he moved into a hotel for a few days but only round the corner and then we made up, and I let everything just get swept under the rug. If I had ever realised we would end up here I would have never let him come back. He still tells me he resents the way I behaved about his work thing (it took years to resolve and was very, very stressful for him, but I thought I was being SUPPORTIVE in telling him that no matter what it would be ok and even if he lost his job we would be ok, I thought I was showing unconditional love but apparently I should have...I don't know, validated? Who knows, I still don't know)
Going back past that, we have had a turbulent relationship for longer than that. He is very hard to live with (and I probably tolerated much more than I should have). I spent a few years planning to leave him, I even had the bank print out the last 6 months of statements so I knew where our financials were. I had a sort of EA about 7 years ago (which I have never told anyone about, not even my IC) when I was going through a big midlife transition thing and after a few months I met up with him and kissed him and it felt horribly wrong, then I realised what a huge mistake that would be and cut off all contact and put much more effort into my marriage. I felt so guilty and awful, and realised that looking elsewhere was a stupid mistake. It did show me what my marriage was missing though: respect, interest, attention, intellectual stimulation. These are things my dh could give me if he chose to, and to some extent he has been more since he left. But these are things I should have been demanding from him long ago, instead of putting up with a long slow slide into resentment on both sides and anger on his and distancing on mine. His behaviour was pretty intolerable at times, but instead of being assertive and putting in boundaries, I complained to my friends and just dissipated the energy that way instead. And then things would improve a bit, we would go on holiday and reconnect and enjoy each other's company and sex and stuff and I would think 'well no marriage is perfect and I love him despite his imperfections' and then the whole cycle would go on again and getting worse all the time. I did see an IC a few years ago too when things were really bad between me and dh but I didn't let my guard down with her, I either warmed our relationship up enough to make things better or dh just got less stressed at work and so didn't bring that home so I stopped seeing her. I guess I got complacent and lazy. I always thought he had the problems so I didn't need to work on me. It's only since BD that I've realised my attachment style is NOT secure and that I need intimacy and affection and attention and I've been shutting those down all this time. It's painful stuff to learn, but then this whole time has been painful. Some days I wish I could just put this pain down for a while and forget about it.
But anyway, that's not possible. So instead I will keep chipping away at my stuff, work super hard at putting in boundaries with dh (I think I did ok with this on the weekend, I don't believe he wants to be critical of me any more than I want him to, I do believe he wants to be a better person and is struggling with knowing how and overcoming bad habits) and hope he works on his stuff. Patience. And more patience.
This stuff is hard. Probably the hardest thing I've ever had to do. Some days I don't think I have the strength to do it. Some days I fail miserably. But I do it anyway. Laughter helps. And the odd bit of venting .
It does get easier. I promise. The ebbs and flows become just that, ebbs and flows. One day soon you will realise that although your H may not be in your life as a H, he is not your life.
Have you ever had a lengthy period of no contact, Dilly? Not suggesting you give up on him or ignore him. But this situation has been going on for a long time. Perhaps you getting a good amount of space - no contact at all - for a few weeks will shake things up for you a bit. Give you the chance to feel what it is like without those texts and visits etc. Give him a chance to stop wallowing in his ambivalence and experience what it would be like not to have you in his life. Is that something you've ever tried or considered or discussed with your IC?
So today I cleared out H's clothes from the chests of drawers. His clothes have been a big issue over the years, he refuses to get rid of any but has a big shopping habit and somehow I've been expected to 'manage' all this in a house with limited storage. There are 4 drawers in one chest, he had 3 of them. So then I had no space for my clothes (we also have a large built in wardrobe and his clothes take up 3/4 of those). So I got a 3 drawer chest and he had 1 drawer and I had 2. That kind of says it all about how much space he takes up even when he's not here. Honestly, I don't see him coming back here even if we R.
So I cleared out 4 drawers of his tshirts, put them in bags and stuck them in the understairs cupboard where all of his sports kit is kept (that takes up half the cupboard). Then I took the books from the top room and stuck them in the cupboard too. I have 3 more bags of books to find another cupboard for, he said months ago that he didn't like the bookcases I found online and he would buy one. Since he hasn't, I plan to buy something else for that corner of the room. I think I will buy another painting for that room too, I'm not keen on the big one in there which he chose.
The outdoor office is full of the books and stuff from the top room (which was 'his' territory). I plan to get rid of the stuff in there, maybe just stick it in the shed or something. If it gets ruined or if he's not happy, then he has plenty of space in his flat. It crossed my mind to get a courier and just box ALL of his stuff up and send it over, but that's maybe too aggressive. This seems like a good compromise, I'm not getting rid of his stuff but I'm moving it out of my way. I'm looking forward to seeing his reaction tomorrow night lol.
cross post there Alison! So yes, it's something I am considering big time right now...Something to discuss with my IC. I have discussed it before but I said I wouldn't go NC as long as I could see progress (which I did) and as long as he could meet my requests (weekly dates, a proper hug goodbye). But now I think I'm ready to do something bigger. We'll see.
I think moving the stuff is MASSIVE and positive. You're not making a point or trying to hurt him. Couriering it to him would probably have been in a bit much.
It is a way, I think, of physically accepting the reality: he doesn't live with you, he hasn't for a long time, and he may not ever come back. In the meantime, it is your home and you need room for yourself to develop, to grow, and to take ownership of your personal and domestic space. Life is different. Your home isn't for a couple and their children, it's for a mother and professional woman and her children. And that means the house will have a slightly different function and the room will be used in a slightly different way.
It feels very symbolic to me. That he moves into his own space that you aren't allowed to see or enter, but he still uses the old shared space as a repository for 'stuff' he can't let go of but doesn't want to take responsibility for. A psychoanalyst would probably have a field day over it.
We don't know each other, but thinking about you making space for yourself in your own bedroom and house has really cheered me up today.
I wonder if it is worth preparing some assertive and boundaried statements in case he kicks off about the changes?
'I needed the space for my own things. If you want those things I can have them couriered to your home.'
'Yes, the change is upsetting. Still, I want to use the space in my home differently now.'
Yes, I agree, his dumping all his emotional responsibilities is kind of embodied in him dumping all his physical stuff. I don't know whether to warn him in advance or not, maybe if I tell him he won't kick off. Or he can kick off and I can be ASSERTIVE. I think warn him in advance because he has a super busy day tomorrow and will be stressed about getting here in time to see ds2's performance.
I had some long discussions with my IC about how I tend to either be angry or withdraw but not be assertive. My IC thought that me moving his clothes was down out of anger, and I said it was fuelled out of anger because we all need motivation sometimes, but if I'd been properly angry I would have lashed out with the courier. Believe me, I've thought about it enough times. Especially his work stuff which is in the garden office. I moved the stuff which was in here out and now I'm planning to get rid of the curtains and get a new rug. I won't consult him on any more house decor stuff either, from now on I'm just doing it without his input. I also had some discussions with IC about what I want and need going forward, I can feel more progress is imminent. I feel really disappointed in dh's behaviour since his busy time ended, and now I'm no longer prepared to wait around having the bad old version of him in evidence. Time for dilly 2.0 to keep moving forward
I think with these sorts of things, it is as much about the motivation as it is about the action. If you warn H in advance is it because you want to control his reaction, or make things easier on yourself, or do something kind for him, or something else? It's probably a mixture of everything, but at least getting it straight in your head will help you frame it.
I think Dilly 2.0 wouldn't give him any warning. This is the man who won't let you step foot into the place where he's been living for nearly a year. You don't need to check, or seek permission or reassurance, for making room for your own clothing in your own bedroom.
Yes you're right, ok Dilly 2.0 is not warning him. No more tiptoeing around him and his anger, I will be assertive (but also prepare some assertive responses as you suggested, being assertive isn't that easy for me though with other people I have been MUCH better lately). I'm looking forward to a chance to practice actually. I messed up badly being assertive over Easter. My IC pointed out something which happened where it was apparent dh was really behaving unreasonably and pushing all my buttons, I started out with an assertive response and then didn't STICK with it. I should have stuck with it, instead I let him push my buttons and flew off the handle and then withdrew.
So how about 'If you're looking for any of your clothes which were in the front bedroom, they're now in the understairs cupboard. Feel free to take some of them back with you if you like'
That is a statement that seems to pre-empt, rather than to respond. I think a factual under-reaction would be the most assertive thing. If he asks where his things are, tell him they're in the cupboard and don't get into it further, whatever tone he uses, whatever accusations he throws or explanations he demands. I think he knows full well he can have his own stuff in his own flat if he wants it. You don't need to tell him that. Or arrange it for him. I guess he might make all kinds of critical assumptions about your motivations and the temptation is to defend yourself against what he believes about you by explaining yourself, or even to pre-empt what he might think by presenting it to him in a particular way.
My IC taught me about assertiveness and not having your buttons pushed too. I remember JADE which means you never Justify, Argue, Defend or Explain. It means you stick to the facts, answer a question once, then end the conversation.
And is it the front bedroom? Or is it 'my bedroom' and 'my chest of drawers' and 'my wardrobe' ?
Ok, thanks for the feedback. JADE, I like that. The bedroom thing, that's tricky because for years it was 'my bedroom' when dh refused to share a bed with me, then he did share it with me a lot more during last year so I became far more careful to call it the 'front' bedroom. I guess it's definitely mine now though. And yes, he can keep his criticisms to himself, I'm not interested in them.
The wardrobe is still 3/4 full of his clothes, there isn't room to put any of it anywhere else though I'm sure I can be imaginative if I want to. I could get rid of one whole chest of drawers actually and put a nice comfy chair next to the window. The room would look a lot less cluttered. I spent years trying not to have that extra chest of drawers in there but in the end I gave in because I literally had just one tiny drawer for all my folded clothes. He really did take up too much space didn't he? He was such a bully. I don't want that bully back.
Is there a room you don't use? Would it be possible to box up all his things - nicely - and put it in there for him? So it is safe and secure but not in your way and not something you have to look at every day?
Not really, no. But I moved the clothes which were most obvious and getting in my way. If he asks about them I'll tell him nicely where they are without explanation.
Dh is coming back home tonight to see ds2 at a school performance. Keeping my expectations low, he has to travel quite a lot for work today to get here on time. He said he would get a bus or taxi from the station but I told him I'd pick him up.
I have been over-emotional lately and not on an even keel. I don't know how much of this was hormones and how much has been holidays and spending a lot of time with dh, but I would like to get back to a more stable place for everyone's sake. Dilly 2.0 is calm and collected. Ommm. I will try a meditation to start my work today, I still have stacks of work to do before I can send it off, then I'm seeing friends and having lunch.
I notice that for me, I am on an even keel so long as I don't see or have much to do with H. That suggests to me that a) I need more space and distance and b) I need to drop my expectations and detach. Do you think some of that might fit for you too? Easier said than done, I know.
I hope everything goes well for you tonight. At least he's still closely involved with the kids, even if it causes him a bit of inconvenience. It isn't enough to build a marriage on, but it is good for them and something positive to focus on.
Yes, and actually him going to the performance is a real 180, he has never until BD taken the slightest interest in their activities, the only time he went to a school play was 10 years ago when ds2 was 4! So that is a definite positive.
I've worked super hard today and also had a lovely run with a friend so I'm feeling very chilled out and like I've accomplished a lot. I think actually my difficult times are when I don't have my usual routine or that much social contact, definitely something to consider. Some of it is dh related but some of it not.
OK so last night was ok, he turned up and said he didn't want to share a bed because he had bad hay fever. I said fine. We had a quick drink at the pub then went to ds2's performance. Dh didn't complain as much as usual. We walked back and dh was trying to make conversation with ds2, it was funny because he kept saying things like 'how is school' and ds2 tells me that that's the only question dh ever asks and it's a rubbish question. I said goodnight and went to bed, had a bad dream where I was angry at dh but slept well other than that. No wine definitely helps!
This morning I got up early, made myself a coffee and did a bit of work and organised some social GAL activities for later on today and tonight, dh came down and I didn't offer him a coffee but did offer him an antihistamine for his hay fever (well, it's only polite plus I was taking one myself, pollen central right now). We drove him to the station and I was Dilly 2.0. I kept thinking what's Dilly 2.0 like? She's warm, she's friendly, she's calm and collected and upbeat. Wow, she has a lot in common with me On the way to the station dh asked what I was up to today, I said I was very busy. He said doing what and I said I had a lot of work to do (true). He got angry and demanded more details of what I was doing and I deflected successfully and then asked him what he was up to at work today and he told me. Then I dropped him off, didn't even think about going in for a hug (that's up to him to offer now, I think, I don't want to hug someone who doesn't want to hug me) and drove home singing along to the radio, thinking that Dilly 2.0 has too much to do to bother with someone who doesn't want her. Dilly 2.0 is in her life right now, living it. Dilly 2.0 isn't small and apologetic and eager to please but confident and has a lot of fun.
Question: how do I deflect these questions dh has about my GAL activities? He just gets angry if I'm vague or he asks who it's with and I prevaricate. I've decided that Dilly 2.0 isn't taking this crap any more.
Incidentally, dh is coming back on Sunday because the kids need taking to activities at the same time. He said he wanted me to book a restaurant for early Sunday evening with all of us. I'm actually thinking I will be making other arrangements instead, after I've taken ds2 out I'm off to GAL with other people and not revealing details. He can shift for himself.
Dh either didn't notice the clothes (possible) or didn't comment. Next thing is I'm doing something with the stuff in the wardrobe. Not moving it out entirely but consolidating it into a smaller space to give more room for my stuff. Dilly 2.0 takes up more space than the old Dilly.
Ah, the probing questions. I use to get these (even though any questions about his activities were always met with a stern look and a huff).
"I am meeting up with friends. What are you up to today?". "I have a work thing on. What are you up to today?" "Nothing much. Just popping out for a drink after work. What are you up to today?". "Going to the gym and then meeting up with an ex colleague. What are you up to today?"
He doesn't ask any more. Just comments to the kids about "mummy shouldn't drink too much". Which is funny, because I don't actually drink every time I am out. I am just out a lot
The DAY he BDed me I went out for a drive and he rang up and asked where I was. I said 'you don't have the right to ask me that any more' and he said 'fair enough'. Seems like that message is still taking a long time to get through, perhaps I need to be clearer in my communication.
I can handle the first question, it's the follow up questions which fox me. I don't want to get defensive or angry or lie or be too evasive. I just don't know how to handle it.
So about Sunday I will say 'I can't make dinner with you and the kids, I have other plans. Enjoy your dinner'
Then he says 'what are you doing?'
What do I say then? If I say 'I'm meeting up with a group of people' he'll ask who. I can then say 'nobody you know' or 'a bunch of people from work' and what do I do then if he keeps pushing?
Oh and actually dh has been pretty open with me since I started asking him about his plans for the week. Which is a 180 because he used to treat his diary like a top secret document available to him and his PA only. So I don't want to expect more honesty from him than I'm willing to give...
He probably will get angry and sulk. How does Dilly 2.0 deal kindly and assertively with people who can't manage their own emotions in the face of a perfectly reasonable boundary?
Is it a reasonable boundary though? Or am I just being too protective, or not telling him stuff in order to try to make him jealous or insecure. That's probably not kind of me. If he's willing to tell me what he's up to (which he is) then should I be deliberately not telling him what I'm doing? I think maybe not, that just seems immature.
I had a difficult day yesterday, I went and did these GAL things but was too tired to enjoy them much. I also felt super lonely being somewhere busy with lots of people and couples out having fun, it's much lonelier in a crowd I think. I did meet some interesting people which was good. One was a divorced dad who was just soooooo bitter about his ex and about his access to his kids, it made me stop and think. Better not bitter, no matter what happens. He was so spiteful about his ex and that's unhealthy for everyone. It was an interesting day but I'm really tired still, time to hunker down with work and peace.
I've got the urge to sell this house and move somewhere else, but I'm pondering whether this is sensible or not. I've lived here a long time and was willing to move when dh wanted to go closer to work, but his behaviour at the time was erratic and unreasonable and unwilling to think about his family's needs (at one stage he made us all go look at a house which was FURTHER away from work and really inconvenient for the kids!). It would be annoying for the kids to move, but maybe we could compromise on somewhere which works for all of us. I feel the need to get away from the negative memories of this house, and I feel like it won't be possible to R with us in this house, because dh's memories are even more negative. I don't feel that attached to this place any more, and I have slightly itchy feet. I don't know. Maybe I'll talk it over with dh, not to force him to make any decisions but just to let him know what I'm thinking. We could always rent for a couple of years before the kids leave school (1 year to go for ds1, 4 for ds2).
I hope you don't mind me saying, Dilly, but you sound a bit unsteady. One day you're moving away from H, clearing space in your own room, giving him less information about your life. The next you're making internal plans for the house you're going to rent together.
No, I wasn't planning for him to live in this rented house, but this house we own is half his so I can't sell it without him agreeing. The rented house would be just me and the kids. I actually feel like dh has put us in a box and expected us to stay exactly where we are, I was up for a fresh start before he BDed and I feel held back and stuck here right now. And yes, I am super unsteady. My life is in real flux this year even without the whole dh question.
Today I feel less restless, more focused on just living my life and not stressing too much. I'm stressing about the huge amount of work I have to do (I got up at 5 to start today and this is the 3rd day in a row of that) and maybe that's impacting everything else. In a way, it's kind of handy having dh living away right now, I have to focus very hard on work.
Anyway, I am recommitting to my marriage, to believing it can work, that we can both make the necessary changes, and not losing heart. I can kind of see why dh is so confused, sometimes I am too. But my aim is to be the best me that I can be, to look after myself and my family and put the effort in to regulate my emotions in the face of these storms. I can be courageous for a bit longer, I have faith in us getting through this and coming out the other end with a stronger marriage and as better people. Change is hard, but I'm a determined and intelligent person. I can do this. Hopefully my dh can too.
I hope the busy period of work is over for you soon, Dilly. Exceptionally quite for me at the moment and for the next few months though I am not sure how much good that does me and I want to make sure to fill my time constructively in other ways!
I admire your commitment. I am so ambivalent about my marriage, and I am no way ready for piecing until I can be, in your words, full of courage and faith and determination and able to regulate my emotions. Not there yet. But where I am today is okay and where you are today is okay too.
Thank you Alison. I actually ended up having a good weekend. Got lots of work done, made a roast dinner for the kids and we watched something new and funny on telly. Took ds2 to his activity yesterday and dh came back home and took ds1 to his, then I dropped ds2 home and met dh for a nice bluebell walk. We were both more relaxed with each other, dh was tired and hungover after having a friend over on Saturday night but he was pleasant enough and spent quite a bit of time trying to connect the upstairs telly to things because ds2 wanted him to. He had to go rummaging in the shed for cables so he saw the things of his I'd put in there, he brought a few things back into the house and put them on the bookshelf. No comments from him! Definite 180s. He also must have noticed the clothes but again no comments, interesting I drove him to the station and said I'd drop his car there on Friday for him to pick up. We have arranged for me to meet him at the weekend, staying Saturday and Sunday nights together and going for a really long walk on Sunday. He asked me to book a nice restaurant on Sunday night. I'm kind of surprised he wants to spend so much time together but very happy to do so. This feels like a nice new phase, where I relax and just chill about what happens in the future. Hopefully the same for him too, but I am going to try really hard to be less reactive and stop these emotional spirals we get into together. No wine should help!
Feeling optimistic and quite relaxed right now. And I have to get back to my work, that's taking a lot of focus right now. I'm glad I'm finally less emotional so that I'm capable of it.
That's all really positive, Dilly. Perhaps his lack of comment about you making some space for yourself in your bedroom can give you the courage to get the picture and rug (I think) you mentioned? Not to rub it in his face - but because these were nice things you wanted for yourself?
Yes, though first I have to find some time to get to the shops, I'm still working very hard and juggling all the balls. Dh had some difficult stuff at work yesterday so he wasn't really in contact. I found that hard, but easier knowing why. I sent him a few light hearted texts about the kids. He has booked a table for lunch today, I'm not sure why he wanted to do lunch and not meet in the evening so I'll ask why. I know he had work commitments Tuesday and Wednesday and I'm busy Mondays.
I was thinking about the telly cables, he spent a lot of time sorting them out, went to the shops and ended up ordering something on Amazon. Before he left he (insistently) dragged me upstairs to show me where the cables should go when they turned up. I was thinking about that last bit, definitely seems like someone trying hard to show love and maybe ask for affirmation. I will make a point of thanking him at lunch today.
I wish dh didn't work so hard and give so much of himself to work. He's the one who needs to GAL really, much more than me. But I've learnt not to suggest he retires early, and to be supportive when he talks about work. There are a couple of people at work who have finally retired later on (most people retire early in his business) and when I asked why they retired so late he said they were single and didn't really have anything else in their lives. I could see that happening to him if we D, which seems very sad. It's not like they're curing cancer or doing a job which adds much to society, just making themselves and other people lots of money.
Anyway, keeping my expectations low over lunch today, if dh has this difficult work stuff continuing he will be preoccupied with that, and I know he doesn't sleep when he's stressed about stuff.
Update: we had a lovely lunch. Thinking back, I needed to be travelling up once a week to go to lunch with him ever since he moved to this office and had such a hideous commute on top of long working hours. Easy to see your past mistakes, it’s not like he often asked me to lunch so errors from both of us. Anyway, I dressed up nicely, put on bright red lipstick (lots of admiring glances from men of all ages which is always nice!) and was warm and appreciative. I like to feel like a wife dh can be proud of and treat to a good meal. Things are warming up again, I have some power to do this if I don’t let my emotions veer off track, don’t have a pity party, and don’t think about the future. I bought him two types of eye drops because he said he had itchy eyes at the weekend, a 180 from me because before I would have forgotten or just left it to him. He expressed gratitude for the thought (also a 180) My parents are in the country for a few months and haven’t arranged to see me or the kids, dh is disappointed at them but it doesn’t bother me. Shows where the distancing comes from though hey? I’ve worked out what I’m going to say to them about dh if I do see them.
I wonder if you and H are going to make progress through actions, rather than conversations. The faffing about with the telly cables, the buying of the eye-drops. The moving of the clothes, the buying of the new picture for your bedroom. They all seem like very tentative acts of communication to me. And it seems when you try to talk to each other, that's where things go wrong. I wonder if rather than talking about sex - as you did when you were on holiday - just physically initiating might have helped?
You know my H is a distancer. He's never going to say the things I want him to say. He's a strong silent type, unless he's complaining or criticizing. But if he bought me eye-drops (and he did used to do things like that - his LL is acts of service and I know even when he was sarcastic with me last night he did finish hanging the washing out for me) it would touch my heart. I'd feel that he had listened to me, and thought about me and my comfort and welfare when I wasn't with him, and taken some action to care for me. It would mean a massive amount.
I wonder if, rather than thinking about conversations, the way forward (perhaps for both of us) is in thinking about what next small actions we can take?
Well I tried doing more than talking about sex before talking both times I've raised the subject... But yes, I see what you mean, dh's LL is acts of service and then maybe gifts (I'm not 100% sure) but I know he likes to feel appreciated and for me to pay him attention and I deliberately didn't do that because I was so angry at him being angry at me. I did actually do a lot for him because he works such crazy hours, but I really did it dragging my metaphorical feet, and he always had to ask. So I've started offering before he asks. And also asking him to join in things with me, like this walk this weekend which was prompted by me. Must keep my expectations low, which is difficult when he was looking at me quite affectionately at lunchtime. Then again, he looked at me affectionately the night before he DBed, so I am very, very dubious of that look after that!
Definitely going to avoid any R talks this weekend. I took advantage of us being away by texting MIL and telling her she could visit the kids if she wanted, ds1 can coordinate via text because I won't get involved beyond that. He gets his birthday money and a meal and I don't have to see her, win win.
I just submitted a big chunk of work, then opened a mini bottle of champagne. Celebrating the small wins is a 180 for me, I have a history of not celebrating, my family were terrible at celebrating and dh is awful at celebrating. So I am celebrating for MYSELF And I might not get up at 5am tomorrow since that's what I've been having to do for days to work on this stuff. So yay, celebration. I do need to clean the house though because I've been so focused on work I haven't had a chance to catch up.
Yes, the MIL is a perennial issue. Dh rarely sees her, I definitely won't. I thought it was kind to let her see the kids though, we have a long and fractured history partly due to her relationship with dh and partly due to her being a truly awful person who has behaved terribly towards her family and never once expressed regret. I feel sorry for her actually, she has no friends, her family don't want to see much of her and now her partner is kicking her out. Not a good place to be in your mid-70s but you reap what you sow in life.
IC today, we talked about friendships and distancing behaviour, he suggested I could rehearse new behaviours with my friends. But my friends wouldn't criticise me, or if they did it would be in a kind way, so I don't see how that will help much. I have been more assertive generally since BD. I feel the need to protect myself from previous behaviour where I would bend over backwards for other people to the detriment of me and my family. I don't do that any longer, I think long and hard before saying yes.
I have had some texts from a good friend who lives in the US and is over this way in June. We have arranged to meet up in Europe. She is one of the most enthusiastic people I know and a lot of fun to be with. I'm feeling excited just thinking about this trip, it's really something to look forward to. I might have arranged something loose with my parents too, so plenty of GAL stuff beyond the norm. I was looking at a map of Europe earlier and thinking of all the places I haven't been and would like to go to. Ideally I would like to explore with someone else, but if nobody is around then there's nothing stopping me once I have finished this work stuff off. It's so nice to feel excited by future plans, I would love dh to be involved but I know that he is super anxious about travel and would hate my spontaneous approach, I should make the most of him not being around
IC today, we talked about friendships and distancing behaviour, he suggested I could rehearse new behaviours with my friends. But my friends wouldn't criticise me, or if they did it would be in a kind way, so I don't see how that will help much. I have been more assertive generally since BD. I feel the need to protect myself from previous behaviour where I would bend over backwards for other people to the detriment of me and my family. I don't do that any longer, I think long and hard before saying yes.
I think I'm going through a similar process. I know I am very assertive at work - in a senior position, often running meetings, talking to people about performance, talking to large groups of people, showing leadership etc. I can do all that very well. I can have difficult conversations. I can deal with people disagreeing with me or being annoyed at me or not wanting to do what I need to get them to do. All of that. It doesn't phase me. But I'm not vulnerable at work as I am with my H. When he's mean, it just really floors me, and I've twisted up my behaviour over the years to avoid his judgement and meanness, then blamed him for it and become progressively more resentful because of it. Detachment is the answer - to treat him like a work colleague - but not one of my friends or work colleagues would accuse me of thinking something, then shout at me because of what they imagine I think. Most of them are more sane than that...
Being assertive in intimate relationships where you are vulnerable is the hardest thing, I think, and takes the most courage. At the end of the day, if a work colleague or even a friend decided they didn't approve of me, or like me, or even didn't want to talk to me anymore - well, it would be hard, perhaps, but I would get over it. I'm not so sure how to carry that sense of security and self sufficiency into an intimate relationship. Isn't the point of an interdependent relationship the risk of it - the fact that in some respects you wouldn't be okay if it ended?
Yes, exactly. That's what my IC was saying the other day, that to be vulnerable you have to risk being hurt or rejected. I was watching a Brene Brown thing on Netflix the other day and she said the same thing, that being vulnerable requires incredible bravery because it's risky. But worth it, because without it you don't get true intimacy. And yes, being assertive in marriage is probably the hardest thing I've ever done. And I mess it up. And I will keep working on it because it's the only way we will get a better marriage.
Journalling: dh has been very distant ever since our lunch on Tuesday, I find it frustrating that he doesn't really bother texting me as usual. I know he had some difficult stuff at work for a day or two and last night he was out drinking with colleagues, so I'm assuming he needed time to process the difficult stuff and might be hungover and tired today but still. He could still reach out. I will have to back off a bit.
I like Brene Brown. I've not watched that Neflix yet but I have most of her books on my phone as audiobooks so I know a fair bit about her work. She's really interesting to me - that combination of intellectual rigour and warmth and fallibility that you don't see very often in public thinkers.
To me, alongside the willingness to take the risk to be vulnerable so as to be intimate, there's also a sense that we need to have some good judgement and be responsible for ourselves. Sometimes it is wise and appropriate to take a step back from someone who it is not safe to be intimate with. Sometimes no matter how vulnerable you get, and how big-hearted your risk taking is, the person you you move towards just doesn't have the willingness to open up, or the capacity to communicate in non-hurtful and healthy ways, or the interest in responding. I am working on both of these things; courage to be vulnerable and good judgement and discernment as to when is the right time.
Have you ever listened to the Esther Perel podcast Dilly? It's really interesting. I think if you are an audible member you can download it all for free, though it might also be available on her website. I used to listen to it a lot but I don't any more because I found all these married couples having hard and intimate conversations really upsetting - it emphasised the loneliness in my own marriage too much. It was really fascinating though and I know you enjoy a podcast or two while running.
Yes, you're right about the balance between vulnerability and protection. I liked the way she used the words 'the story I'm telling myself in my head is...' I can see how that is a powerful way to communicate, more so than 'When you do yyy I feel xxx...' I am going to try it. And yes I have listened to the Esther Perel podcast, it's very interesting and each time I listen I get fresh insight. This is a constant learning process. I was listening to one yesterday in fact, where the man can't feel sexual towards his wife because he's too busy providing for his family and acting as a rescuer and protector. I wonder if some of that is what my dh feels? Another podcast I was listening to was the sex therapy one, the episode was about the secret emotional life of men. The take home was that men and women have a lot in common in what they want in relationships, but the ways they go about it are very different.
Dh was very uncommunicative yesterday and didn't bother texting this morning. I was getting myself into a bit of a tizz about it, even though I realise that most of it is probably him trying to recover from a hard week at work and also finishing off to leave early tonight to travel. Anyway I texted him and asked if he was sure he wanted to spend the weekend together because he seemed quite cold. He said he was looking forward to our walk. I said I was just checking, and I was looking forward to it too. He then said he'd booked a pub for us to have lunch at on Sunday, and I thanked him. I feel more reassured now. Funny how we move between pursuit and distance, but I feel reassured now and ok if he doesn't contact me again today.
Anyway, I am off out to GAL today and get some work done, and this evening I'm taking the kids to dinner to celebrate some exams finishing for ds1. Tomorrow I'll take ds1 to work, ds2 to his activity and then I'll join dh in the afternoon. Hopefully he will have had a chance to relax and recharge, get out on his bike and be good company. I feel like he really, really needs a proper holiday but he has nothing booked except for a long weekend cycling with colleagues which will be a binge-drinking session and involve plenty of stressful travel. Then again, it feels like he's lost the ability to relax properly, which I find sad. I would love for him to find his playful side again. But right now I will just accept him for where he is.
Ugh. BD2. Thinks he wants a divorce but is too scared to hurt me. Thinks we have nothing in common. All the cliches. I was pretty calm about it all, said he’s an adult who is able to make his own decisions etc but divorce isn’t my preference. I can see he’s alone, lonely, works too hard and feels stuck in life. Not sure him leaving has changed any of that. Other than that it was a nice day. Ironic. I can see he’s miserable. Maybe I just need to let go. I will stay strong tonight and maybe go dark. Maybe he’s not had enough time alone. I’m so sick of this. I deserve so much better.
I didn’t raise the R talk by the way, that was all him saying back off, don’t take me for granted, get on with your life because I want to be alone. Well if he really wants to be a sad and lonely man I can’t stop him.
I think I handled it ok all told, I said a lot of things in our marriage were my responsibility and I regretted them, but I wasn’t overly apologetic. I also said maybe we should just see each other one night a week and sometimes a walk at weekends when he sees the kids. I know we’ve both found it hard spending a lot of time together, even though most of it has been positive and pleasant. Also last night he said I snored and kept him awake so I went and slept on the sofa bed, that doesn’t help his thinking.
If it wasn’t for here I would have believed him and been cutting all ties. Now I can see what a cliche he is and how I can’t believe anything he says or half of what he does. This weekend away was HIS suggestion! I asked him if he wanted to go for a long walk thinking somewhere near our house for a few hours and it ended up being a weekend away over the bank holiday. Then he tells me he’d been dreading it! Dreads seeing me because it’s ‘awkward’ (because he feels guilty?) I’ve got much better recently at controlling my emotions and not asking for too much affection or even time. Maybe I should back away even further, not text him at all unless he texts first, be less available. I don’t know. Difficult.
He doesn't sound in his right mind - he is suggesting the time together, seems unable, much of the time, to muster civility, is hung-over most of the time, working when he isn't, and isn't engaging in any of the self reflection that would make an R possible or even desirable. I think it's a cheek for him to say he wants a divorce but doesn't want to hurt you - as if what he's putting on offer right now is worth putting yourself through this for.
Can you go dark? Just accept what he says at face value, stop all the admin and wife work and dates and pleasant availability and let him know what it really feels like to manage his own paperwork, relationships with the kids and his mother, and spent the rest of the time drunk or hung over in his flat?
I feel really quite angry for you, Dilly. Maybe you'll take my suggestions with a pinch of salt - I don't think any of us here are able to be truly objective. But you've put your heart and soul into being as gentle and kind to him as you can, and it hasn't got you anywhere at all. I think it might be time for a drastic change in your approach to this.
I would also say, Dilly, that all of his feelings of dread and anxiety are to do with him and not you. You're not perfect and you snore and you probably let things lapse and get irritating now and again because you're a normal human being. You're also extremely tolerant, gentle, putting your heart and soul into finding non threatening ways to show him love and affection, and he's so messed up and sad inside that he can't cope with it. It's the not-being-able-to-cope with it - normal interaction - that he dreads. Not you.
I think you're right Alison. And also right that he is no prize. Last night he had 3 glasses of wine and a pint of beer and was very grumpy indeed on the way back from the restaurant. This morning he complained about me 'banging around' (I was tidying up). His major complaint about our marriage apparently is that our house was messy (well we have 2 kids and we have NEVER had a particularly tidy house even before then). I am so tired of being blamed for random stuff which seems meaningless to me. By the way, my house has been immaculate since BD so hey, let's stick firmly in the past shall we? It's like he can't even be bothered to look for the positives in me or in our very long marriage. And newsflash, there was PLENTY of good stuff in there.
We actually had a lovely walk today despite the hideous R talk. Interestingly, the R talk was initiated by him shortly after I told him he should see a doctor about his numb feet following me mentioning it to my nurse friend. It might be alcohol related, it might not be. But I'm willing to bet he won't see a doctor about it, despite it being potentially very serious. Like amputation serious according to my friend. I should have kept my mouth shut on that one, I know he has huge health anxieties. And also huge denial.
Gah, he's a grownup. Apparently. Not that he acts like one. I have to let him go and make his own mistakes. Maybe I won't even want him back if I'm able to drop the rope eventually. But dropping the rope is soooo hard.
Part of me wonders whether he isn't having an affair after all and all this behaviour is an elaborate front and he's the world's best liar and the world's best hider of it. Or whether he wants to have an affair but first he needs to get rid of me by treating me so badly I couldn't possibly stick around. Though if that was the case why would he even bother seeing me?
I do know that he is broken, psychologically broken. Whether it's a MLC, burnout from his enormously stressful job, alcoholism symptoms, a combination of the above, it's possibly irrelevant. I can't help him and I can only make things worse. He did say at one stage that I'm the biggest part of his life in terms of friendship and he doesn't want to lose it but knows he can't keep it and get divorced. Well, friends are much easier to get than spouses, I can tell him that for nothing.
You know, where-ever the responsibility lies for the breakdown of your marriage, and however hard you have worked on your own shortcomings - marriage is hard. Even the best marriages are difficult and take work and attention and bravery and vulnerability and a willingness to change and sacrifice and hold on to yourself while you have hard conversations. And he just isn't up to it. He doesn't have the capacity. That might change, but it isn't likely to happen soon. Perhaps he is afraid of losing you, but going dark is the best thing you can do - because he doesn't have you and that's because he isn't capable of being close to someone because of the choices he is making to blame, to evade, to drown out his feelings with booze and work.
I cannot believe you went and slept in a spare room in your own home - when you're not permitted to enter his flat - because you were worried about the effect of your normal sleeping noise might have on his mood and ability to think. There is such a fine line between care and enabling, and I think you stepped into enabling there.
Quote
He did say at one stage that I'm the biggest part of his life in terms of friendship and he doesn't want to lose it but knows he can't keep it and get divorced.
That there is him telling you that he is cake eating. He doesn't want to be a husband because he isn't up to it. But he wants a wife, but only in tiny doses, and only if she's on best behaviour and not asking for anything. And he calls that friendship.
Please start a new thread and link both threads together.
Sit quietly, the answers will reveal themselves when you least expect them to. The past is gone, the present is a gift and you need to focus on today, allow the future to reveal itself when it is ready.
So I felt angry about that. I feel angry a lot right now. I’m back in victim mode and flailing about a bit. I want to get to a calmer place somehow but I’m not sure how. 