You two talking has helped me a great deal . Seeing the other side so to speak it illuminating. I was going to try to explain how it feels to be a man in a demanding job and having a family but I think you have got a hold on that. I can see where the resentment builds up on the other side now . I do like MWD SBT approach. Don’t focus on the past/ why find a solution, try different things , see what works .
I truly believe that you can get to a non zero sum gain with some solutions , where you both win . Apologies for interrupting, you are welcome to ask me not to chuck in my thoughts on your thread . Otherwise I will drop the odd post in once in a while
I've been thinking about acceptance and uncertainty too. I know when I feel angry with H it is because I want him to say 'everything is going to be okay' and for me to be able to believe him. And of course he can't say that, and he can't make me believe or not believe anything. It isn't his job to cure my trust issues in this relationship or my general anxiety around vulnerability or my existential woe! And I did make it his job - I expected him to be my solid ground and he really did try his best to be. I think a lot of his anger is about feeling shamed for not being able to make me safe in the way I wanted to be.
And now I have to accept uncertainty and come to rely on myself and be the person who says to myself 'it will be all right' and some days I can and some days I can't. It is so so so hard. I will check out the podcast you mention. A book I've found useful about this sort of thing is called Radical Acceptance by Tara Brach. It is Buddhist but she refers to other spiritual traditions too and if you're not a person of faith, I don't think it loses its value or there's anything objectionable in it.
Sigh, yes, you're right. Yet another thing I have to work on. I actually have a bit of a dread of Tara Brach now though because I listened to her a lot when I was deep in the early weeks of not sleeping and being anxious all the time, and somehow that has contaminated my feelings about her! It was kind of helpful in calming me down back then but I haven't listened to her since. But maybe I can try practicing acceptance in other ways. My IC did say he thought I'd been extremely patient, that was good to hear when I don't FEEL patient. Nice to have some validation.
OK, so date last night. Met up and went for a walk and dinner. I've had a few terrible nights' sleep, an horrific nightmare the night before last and was feeling quite fragile after that and feeling poorly. Dh was also exhausted after finishing his busy time at work, binge drinking on Tuesday night and seeing his mother on Wednesday. Two very tricky things: I asked dh what his plans were for Easter and ds1's birthday which is just before. He said he was planning a lie in before joining us on Good Friday. I felt very rejected by that and went cold. I even fiddled with my wedding ring and put it in my pocket. He noticed me go cold and asked what was wrong and I couldn't tell him without either criticising him or getting really upset. I didn't know how to react. So I kept being cold and he chatted a bit and then I warmed up and moved on. Later on at dinner I was telling him about my lovely day out a week ago or so and mid sentence he looked over at another table and completely blanked me. Then he looked back at me like nothing had happened and didn't ask me to continue. So then I said maybe I should just leave and he acted all hurt and said sorry and got defensive and said he was tired and hadn't meant anything. And I cried a little bit and then we left and he said sorry and I said sorry and that I was super sensitive to rejection right now and he walked me to the station and I got a kiss on the lips but pretty much only because I demanded it. Sigh. And on the train I sent him a text saying I have stuff to say to him but he's not in the right place right now and it's scary for me. I felt like I need to tell him how I want to be open and vulnerable with him but how hard it is when he has the power to hurt me, and about the stuff I've been learning about myself and how I distance and how I go cold and how I want to change that. And I also want to tell him about the mask dream, but I just didn't feel safe last night so I wasn't brave enough (or he wasn't in the right place, maybe a bit of both).
I had a dream last night that the kids and I were staying in a hotel room which was like a room in a castle with locked gates and you could drive your car out into another locked area and then you still had to get out of more locked gates. And I said to the kids that this was like their dad's flat. And then dh turned up and there was a big walking group going up and down the stairs in the castle and I had promised dh something but forgotten so I got out of my car and ran down the stairs to go fetch it for him but the walkers were in my way. And I was all flustered and apologetic about letting him down and him being angry with me (a massive theme in our marriage but also behaviour I learnt from my mum). And then dh turned up near the top of the stairs and we started walking down and he said what a nice idea the walking group was and maybe we should join in, but I didn't want him to know how I found out about the group in case he went off to join them by himself. And then I woke up crying and angry that dh is keeping me and the kids locked in a room inside a castle when we need to be free. Woah. Sorry, just needed to get that down before I forget it! The walls of the room weren't that high but it was claustrophobic in there.
Anyway this morning we had a few friendly texts and then dh rang me a couple of times but my phone was on silent so then he started texting me as though I was angry with him (I wasn't at that stage) so I rang him back and said I couldn't hear the phone ringing. And he told me about his lunch with his mum and how he had told her not to bother me because she upset me last time. I thought about it a bit and then rang him really angry that he has been discussing me with his mum and told him not to do it. And then he said he was sick of me beating him up and I should just calm down instead of ringing up angry, so I pointed out that he had rung me first and I felt ambushed. Then he sent me a text about all the stuff I have ignored him complaining about over the years and I said I wished I could change the past and I was sorry. We sort of patched it up, I said sorry for the past and also for treading on his sore spots sometimes. He also asked what I meant about last night's text saying I had stuff to say and I said I couldn't discuss it on the phone. And he asked if my health was ok and I said yes (I had a cancer scare a few years back and he responded to it by rejecting me, but my IC suggested it was because he was terrified of losing me) And I felt upset that he cares about my physical health but apparently not my emotional health. But anyway.
So I calmed down a bit and then sent him a text saying that I was upset yesterday that he wasn't intending to see ds1 on his birthday, but that I didn't know how to say that without criticising him so I went cold instead, and that wasn't very mature of me and it's a bad habit of mine. And that I shouldn't take it as a personal rejection and I should butt out of him and ds1's relationship. And that I was feeling fragile this week. He rang me later and said that I was right, that he should see ds1 on his birthday (he made a huge effort to see ds2 recently on his birthday, so he's correct). We agreed to meet up for a family dinner after dh and ds1 finish work on his birthday, and I said I would ask ds1 to come with us for 2 out of 4 days over Easter. Since then we've had a few texts back and forth about possible venues and stuff to do for his birthday.
Massive brain dump there. Takehomes for me to think about and work on: be less reactive with dh, come up with more strategies for when I'm triggered. Be brave and try to open up with him sometime (on holiday?). Ponder the meaning of the castle dream (the walls and gates were low, boundaries? Or him locking himself away from us? Both?). Practice acceptance and detachment from the outcome (I will be ok no matter what, none of this work on myself is wasted) So just a short to do list there lol.
You two talking has helped me a great deal . Seeing the other side so to speak it illuminating. I was going to try to explain how it feels to be a man in a demanding job and having a family but I think you have got a hold on that. I can see where the resentment builds up on the other side now . I do like MWD SBT approach. Don’t focus on the past/ why find a solution, try different things , see what works .
I truly believe that you can get to a non zero sum gain with some solutions , where you both win . Apologies for interrupting, you are welcome to ask me not to chuck in my thoughts on your thread . Otherwise I will drop the odd post in once in a while
Hi Tryhard, thanks for your post. Sorry, I took such a long time writing my epic post earlier that I missed yours! I think the more we can understand the other person's perspective the better, so I would definitely be interested in your point of view from the male in an demanding job. There is a lot of gender stuff in here, which I think Alison has kind of seen both sides but I certainly haven't!
Dilly, don’t apologise, I have learnt a great deal from your posts . It has highlighted to me the differences in genders and how we see things . When I wasn’t tuned in , I felt I was busting my ###### to earn a decent wage and be a good provider for my family . Sacrificing my time and soul , work can be a lot of pressure and I didn’t communicate any more than a little. Talking about it outside of work just felt to me as I was reliving it and I wanted to switch it off .
I felt drained and vastly under appreciated sometimes when I then had to support my partner emotionally and withdrew . Maybe it was some sort of protection, I don’t know . But my understanding has grown and I am realising the compassion and understanding I had at the start of our relationship.
The thing in your post that jumped out at me was the dinner table situation. I have been your h in that ski. You expressed that you felt ignored/ invalidated ? Do you know how men communicate ? We use short sentences, 1m “hey” 2m “wassup “ 1m “not much, gonna watch football “ 2m”cool’team not doing well” 1m “no” 2m “ cya bar Friday “ 1m “cool” We focus on facts and ignore the superfluous words around it . You ladies on the other hand . Compare you and Alison’s conversations on her to my thread . Notice anything?
I don’t have answers but when you were talking, maybe you could have asked him what he thought about what you had just said ?
Tryhard - I am tuning in here and listening hard. Because I too have felt very blanked, slighted or dismissed by my H's style of communication. I don't think he realises that words aren't just to deliver information but are also there as a way of touching each other. So when he is taciturn, I feel rejected. I don't think he's wrong and I'm right, or that he needs to communicate the way I see fit - but I do wonder if there is a gender dynamic thing here that I am not paying enough attention to. I know when I ask H what he thinks or feels about something, he feels interrogated.
Ha, you two ought to read my dh's emails or texts: not a single unnecessary word. Sometimes to the point that it confuses more than communicates! I *do* have a tendency to go on and he has a tendency to shut me down after a bit. That's definitely a thing. I'm a storyteller, he's a doer.
The thing where he blanked me though, he was just tired. Though I notice he does it more when I'm talking about people he's not interested in. Which given I have distanced him in the past by paying more attention to other people is fair enough.
The other thing is if I drift off or interrupt when he's talking he goes ballistic, totally ballistic. I guess we're both very sensitive right now.
Update: he texted me at lunchtime asking if I could do breakfast or lunch next week before I take the kids away. I can't actually but offered him a drink one evening perhaps. Interesting. I was out GAL with a bunch of people today and he was asking me via text all about it. I feel totally exhausted, what a day.
OK so dh was away most of the weekend and was pretty remote, I just left him to it other than a few logistics texts. I figured he needed some time to himself and to sleep well so I backed off. This morning I went to a thing with ds2 and dh texted to ask if we had fun. Then he came home but we all needed to go straight out again to pick up ds2's friends for a party. I just remembered dh commented on a lamp I bought a few months ago which is next to my bed, he must have been snooping round the house and round my bedroom...The party was a lot of fun and then we went for pizza which was also fine. But dh left early to miss the worst of the traffic and I felt pretty upset TBH. It didn't help all the teens were playing some game of life type thing on their phones and shouting stuff like 'I just got divorced!' or 'I've got depression!' or 'both my parents just died!' Pretty hilarious when you're a teen, pretty devastating when you're middle aged.
Dh rang when I was dropping the last friend off and we had a quick chat about how successful the party was (teen boys are hard to please but they were busy saying they wanted to do the same activity for their birthdays) and we said we'd see each other on Friday when I collect dh from the airport in France. He did want to meet up tomorrow or Tuesday but we both had stuff on which clashed so we agreed it wouldn't work. I feel sad and maybe a bit like perhaps I shouldn't have asked him to this holiday next week, he's there for 2.5 days out of our 6 days but perhaps I should have just gone without him and given him a chance to miss us. But I offered him the chance and he agreed to come. I feel apprehensive about how it goes, I don't want my expectations too high but at least we will have plenty of time to spend together calmly in a nice environment. Some background is that this place is where dh came back to me properly after his first mini BD (in a way he has been mini BDing me every winter for the past 5 years or so). I wish so much that instead of saying 'yes of course we should just move on and I'll have sex with you' that I had said 'there is no way I'm staying married to you with this stuff going on, we get help or you need to leave'. I don't know how much it would have helped, but one thing I said to my IC is that he's there to keep me honest, to not brush this stuff under the carpet ever again. I need to work out what stuff I say to dh when we're on holiday, maybe I will take some notes because I forget stuff easily particularly when I'm stressed. I've been listening to more podcasts about what to do when you're triggered, I should take notes on those too!
Anyway, tomorrow night I am out GAL at an event where there are plenty of nice, intelligent men who I can chat to and then it's busy getting ready to go away, I'm looking forward to it and so are the teens I think. I will have plenty of time to get some work done, go running and walking and eat pizza with the kids, it'll be fun I'm sure. And not travelling with dh is always a massive bonus, since he has awful travel anxiety! Must count my blessings.
Just a bit of journalling. A few friendly texts with dh yesterday, mostly about kid stuff. My GAL event was postponed, which was a relief as I was super tired after a busy weekend. I'm conscious I initiated too many texts yesterday so I'm backing way off. It's hard to know what level to pitch it, being a distancer means I feel like I should pursue a little bit to show him I'm not distancing, but who knows, maybe he's just going through a thinking phase now work is quieter (he still has a bunch of work social stuff to attend though). Dh seemed to enjoy the party on Sunday but he looked tired still, and fat. He has really piled the weight on again and must have been drinking a lot (even more than usual which is a lot). Oh well, I never thought leaving would make him more happy so I guess that shows in his body. He is in a better place than when he left, I did actually think he might have been a suicide risk back then and he had horrific headaches for several months after he left. He is in a better place now and sometimes I see a genuine smile, but he's clearly not found happiness like he said he wanted. Who knew! I was hoping his MLC was abating but maybe it's just going into a different phase. He has shown much more interest in the kids and me compared with even a few months ago, but he's still clearly suffering.
I've been thinking about how to be during our weekend together, and I don't know yet. I will try to be calm and relaxed. I might tell him in advance I don't expect sex (we will likely share a bed given the set-up) in an effort to show him he's safe. I'd like to tell him about my dream, and about my realisation of how much I've distanced in the past and how I realise now how much that hurt him, and how I want to have more empathy. If I do this I will phrase it all in 'I' language, because I know he's not feeling safe right now for whatever reason. And since we will be spending 2 weekends in succession together, I would really like him to feel safe with me and the kids. And I will avoid any R talks like the plague, because I really cannot bear to hear him saying he doesn't know if he wants to be married any more.
I've also been thinking about the future a bit. Not too far in the future, but there is a bank holiday coming up in a few weeks and he has not mentioned any plans. I think I might go away by myself for a yoga retreat for a few days or something, or go walking with a group, something like that. And at the end of May it's school holidays again, I would like to plan something for that too, again he has not mentioned it and if he doesn't after Easter I will just go ahead and book something which suits me and the kids and if he wants to he can join us. I think if it gets to June and things haven't moved forward then I will be thinking hard about what I want. I have also been thinking about this house and whether I want to stay here or not. I'm thinking about moving, but until I know where dh will end up I'm not sure where I will move to. Obviously if I sell this house he needs to be on board too. I feel a bit trapped because the kids have their schools and ds1 has his job and his girlfriend so they will not want to move, but if dh can have a fresh start why can't I? I am not going to mess up my kids' lives but equally I don't think I want to stay here with all the memories if dh isn't coming back. I will think about this, it'll take forever to actually do anyway, and ds1 will be leaving school in just over a year anyway. Time marches on and things change whatever happens in my marriage.
I've been reading some of the success stories in the MLC forum, I can see a few real parallels with my sitch I think. I have to back off taking so much responsibility for this whole mess and remember that he has a lot of issues to work through from his childhood and also what the future will look like. I hope he hurries up with that...
