Hi All. Hope everyone is having a good day. It's my 1st time posting here and I've been reading and learning a lot from the community this past 2 months.
Here's my story:
My W, our 2 sons and I went for a 3 week trip to attend a wedding on Dec 2018 through Jan 2019 in Southeast Asia (this was our 2nd trip out there in 14 months). A week upon our return, my W wasn't herself, would act very cold towards me and wouldn't initiate any conversation. When I told her that she's been acting cold/weird towards me lately, she admitted that she's been unhappy, say she's not in love with me anymore, saying she doesn't know herself and wants to find herself and then the BD. I asked her what's making her unhappy and of course all the blame was on me. All she brings up are the bad stuff I did 15 yrs ago (no infidelity). We've been together for 17 years (12.5 yrs married) and had so much good memories together especially with our children. In the past 3 yrs we've been in this routine re our 2 boys' basketball training program (where I also train/coach) - 3 days a week of training and tourney events on the weekends all year long. I made sure that at least 1x a week, we get to spend time together just the two of us. I even suggested we should take a break from the boys' bball program cause it's messing up our psyche.
When she dropped the bomb on me, I was really trying to get an idea about what's going on cause she's just willing to end everything with a snap of a finger with no regard about myself or our children's emotions. I've apologized again about how I made her feel in the past, told her that we can work things out like always but it seems as though she had fully given up. I gave her a lot of space to think this through, she would always leave me with the boys so I started focusing on them more and being more productive hoping that she'll notice. She's adamant that I let her go, I told her that I can't simply give up on our family and even suggested we talk to a family therapist which her reply was a big NO. She then started sleeping in the living room. I started doing tons of research and it led me to believe that she's going through a MLC. She became very irritable, irrational, emotionally abusive, and doesn't want me around at all. She decided to kick me out of the house on 3/8/19 and didn't give me ample time to find a place to stay. I respected her decision and left even if it's hard for me and the boys since we're used to always being together. All this time, we shared everything re the finances of our family. Two days before kicking me out, she tried to make a deal saying "if you would've paid for all of our bills, I would've given us a chance", I replied by saying if that's what'll take for our family to be intact, I'll be willing to do so. Her response to me was pure disrespect, she said for me to do all that but I still gotta leave on 3/8/19. I told her how do you expect me survive on my own if I'm paying for everything? How am I gonna support myself with no roof above my head? Her reply was, "I guess that's a no".
All this time I think there's a 3rd party involved. She's been constantly on her phone texting someone using Snapchat these past few months (an app where text messages don't get saved). When I try to peek she'll try to hide it. I asked if she was having an affair and of course she will not admit to that. As I backtracked when we we're on vacation, she'd rather stay in the room and not mingle with my relatives. Couple of times I catch her texting someone and I asked who it was, her response was either her bestfriend or coworkers. I've already had my suspicion on who it was (the program director of our boys' bball program who's also married with 3 kids). The night she kicked me out, my W took the kids to Skyzone (a trampoline park), this is where my eldest son saw her texting the OP on Snapchat, kind of updating him where they were that evening. My son sent me a text concerning this. I appreciated him for telling me. I really thought the OP was a true friend and my comrade since we coached together and we've been fully committed to his program for 3 yrs. He acts religious, full of integrity and dignity. Little did I know these were all lies and he has taken advantage of my wife's vulnerability as of late. I decided to question my wife concerning this, telling her that everything she does leads to this OP. She then decided to take the home and room keys from me and banning me from entering the house; saying if I come in, she will throw all my stuff away. She's in full denial and says I should stop assuming. I had a chance speak to my eldest about what he sent me via text and I told him I'm proud of him for letting me know. I also talked to him about "disrespect and trust". My eldest son even told me that he notices his mom acting weird/awkward towards the OP every time they're around each other. I asked him what he meant by this, he said that his mom is a bit giggly and always laughs at his jokes. I told my son that we're quitting that program since we've been back-stabbed and we can't tolerate that. I told him that your teammates will always be your friends and that I'll find him and his younger brother another program we can join. I decided to send a text msg to that so called friend of mine (the OP) and let him know how me and my boys felt back-stabbed and disrespected by his actions and taking advantage of my wife's/their mother's vulnerability, also letting him know that we're done with his program. His response was, "I'm sorry and that was text from a long time ago, I commented on one of her videos". I even told him to stop communicating with my wife. Since I brought this up to my W how we're quitting that bball program, she became enraged and wondered why I did that and how selfish I was, etc. I told her ask the boys if they still want in, she asked them and the boys says NO more with that program. After she heard all this, she became more demanding and started to limit my time with the boys. Since I coach and train too, I decided to work with my boys myself at a park nearby daily. I still drop them off to school and pick them up from home after work so we can train together and eat dinner together. Mind you, when we're in that bball program, a lot of times we get home around 930pm. She started demanding that I bring the boys home before 9. I told her, "I respect you not wanting me around but you can't limit my time with the boys. Limiting my time with them is not in their best interest when you're well aware they're used to having me around. Because of your selfishness, you're stressing myself and our children which we all do not deserve". Also, I found out the OP does Uber after practice (late nights). Lately, I've been staying at my Uncle's house (dad's bro) since I got kicked out which is just 5 min away. There are nights where I'd swing by the house after 10 pm and our SUV wasn't there. She'd always leave the boys when they're asleep. Now I see why she wants them home at a certain time. The 1st time I saw this, I sent her a text saying, "now I know why you don't want me around, so you can start fooling around when the children are sleeping". 2 nights ago my eldest was still awake, he told me the following morning that his mom left around 10pm. Also, last night I was at my buddy's house down the street, I passed by around 1130p and the SUV is not in the driveway again. Although my in-laws are there, I don't think it's right for her to leave them. I do feel like her and the OP are meeting up somewhere late at night.
A little back story: We live at her parents house (where she grew up). Her mom has Parkinson's disease (PD) for over a decade now and her dad's retired so he can take of her mom (we all live at the same house). Also about a little over a decade ago, we did a home improvement work that's why we're there helping them pay majority of their mortgage loan. My W also works from home 4 days a week - 10 hr shifts the past 3 years. After work, she'll pick up the boys from school, help them with their homework, preparing our dinner, taking the boys to practice (then I'll meet them there at practice since I get off work much later than she does). As you know, taking care of someone that has PD is really hard and draining. With all the continuous repetitive requests to stand up, lay down, go to the bathroom, etc, we noticed it was a bit hard and frustrating for my father in law (FIL). You can hear them nag each other daily. Since my wife works from home, I already know that she hears their bickering all day long. Although my FIL might get frustrated at times, I know for a fact that she loves my mother in law (MIL). I do think that this also had an effect on my W. I also feel that the reason why she has all the courage to kick me out since it's not really "our" house - it's theirs. Even my FIL, MIL, sister and brother in laws try to talk to my W, but all she does is ignore everybody. Just really self-centered lately
I've been doing the LRT the last 10 days. 2 days ago she text me telling me to let her know what my plans are with the boys. I didn't reply after 2 hours and said you know our routine, we train then eat dinner. She then asked when I will find a new program for them. I said that's not in my priority list, my priority is to get situated (currently looking for an apt). I also said, we still train religiously - work is work. Today she sent me a text saying she filed for divorce, that I can get all my stuff and rent a storage until I find my own place. She also added, that "The door is still open for you, you just have to prove it" which I think is illogical knowing you're having an affair but yet leading me on. I ignored her text today. I really don't know what to do. HELP!!!
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Me (37 turning 38) W (38 turning 39) T = 17 yrs M = 12.5 yrs S = (12 turning 13) S = (9 turning 10) BD = Jan 2019 W filed for D = 3/29/19
Keep this to yourself. DO NOT share this book or this site at all with your spouse. It is your playbook and not to be shared with the "opposing" team.
It is important to clear the search/browsing history from your computer on a daily basis to prevent the possibility for your WAS to stumble on the DB site and discover your posts here on DB. Erasing the search history will protect your posts and you as well.
Sorry you are here but you will meet some wonderful people here and get some great advice.
You may be on moderation now, post in small frequent replies and stay on this thread until you reach 100 posts (for your thread, you can also post on other peoples threads to give support)
I have read a good deal of books on the subject and can give you some suggestions when you are ready.
Take the parts of this advice that you need and don't worry if I have repeated something that you have already done.
I will give you a bunch of homework assignments to read.
This POST is under reconstruction and we will be working on this as time goes by, this is the most current version.
Now you have all the tools to read. Let us know how your doing and if you have any questions.
I suggest that you read the entire thread in the resources. You can also pick out some people and read their whole story.
Depression is the key to the whole thing and it is always present!
Believe none of what he/she says and 50% of what he/she does.
I would not ask him/her anything unless you can have no expectations. Sometimes asking them questions will be thought of as pressure. You do not want to do anything that can be thought of by your H/W as controlling or pressure.
Lets not worry about him/her. Lets work on you! Start your homework assignments. Something to DO while you are on moderation. GAL. Eat, sleep, exercise and take a deep breath. In general take care of your self first.
Detach the single most important thing to DO.
Your H/W has given you a gift THE GIFT OF TIME use it wisely
I have been there in a similar situation. I would think she has been planning this for some time and gathered strength while you were gone. You did not do anything wrong, despite her claims. I would suggest:
-Get back in the house. You may stand to lose ground with custody. Sleep on the couch if you have to. In my state my wife could not ask me to leave. If she asks you to watch the kids while she goes out, hire a PI. Collect as much evidence as possible WHILE remaining absolutely silent, no matter how much it hurts.
-hire an attorney. Do not get caught off guard if this moves swiftly. File for temporary orders ASAP. this protects assets, spending, custody arrangements etc....if you do not move back in.
-collect all financial information and make copies. Freeze any joint credit cards you can. An MLC person with carte blanche access can destroy you financially.
-find whatever coping mechanisms you can...gym, church, friends.
-do everything you can for the kids. They will need you badly.
Your W is quite mixed up. She is angry, confused, lashing out, making demands, baiting you to start an argument, being very disrespectful, and so on and so on. All pretty standard stuff unfortunately.
During a midlife crisis that person is irrational and has their emotions cranked to 11. They will become the complete opposite of who they were. They are dealing, well actually not dealing with... They are suffering from past trauma(s) and very poor coping skills, usually from their childhood experiences. They is nothing you can do for them. You did breaker her, you can’t fix her.
She needs space and time to sort herself out. That has very little to do with you or your kids. She will take whatever space and time she needs. You have already seen that; she filed for D. Stop all conversations regarding your relationship with her, that just pushes her away. She can’t deal with herself, she most definitely cannot deal with anyone or anything else.
JN, focus on you and your kids. Keep your focus there. Your kids will need you very very much. And you will need you. Let your W be. And just breathe.
Her path is a long one, and the path you’ve been forced into is not short either. This is a marathon, not a sprint. You have a gift of time, use it well.
Hamburg has given you some very good advice. Move back in, and seek legal counsel. Keep your mouth shut when around her and do not take the bait.
As difficult as it is, treat the D or separation as a business deal. Keep emotions out of it, and “think” things through. Listen to your L; you are hurting and can make poor decisions or ones you would not normally make.
I know how counterintuitive all this feels. Read posts, listen to the caring people and their hard earned wisdom.
Focus and you.
Breathe.
You will get through this.
DnJ
Feelings are fleeting. Be better, not bitter. Love the person, forgive the sin.
Hamburg and DnJ: I appreciate both of you. As a matter of fact, we do not have any joint accounts at all but do share/pay everything as far our bills are concerned. Although, she did ask that we separate our cellphone bills and car insurance bill lately. Which I don't actually agree but still did. Also, we live with her parents, that's the reason why she has the full courage of kicking me out even if her parents disagree with her decision. As much as I wanna stay, I feel like if I'm putting more pressure if I do stay. I just want to show her that I respect her if she doesn't want me around. I have been talking to my colleague who's an atty. who also went through a divorce but it doesn't involve a MLC.
Yes, I have been focusing on myself and the children lately and I'm just GAL.
If this is a midlife crisis, unfortunately this is a long journey you are embarking on - whether you decide to stand or not. I stood for a while, but then made the difficult decision that for mine and my children’s well being that I couldn’t anymore...but that doesn’t mean the journey is over. I still want XH to get through this and be a good dad and live a happy life. And I still have my own issues I’m working through.
I know at the beginning I just wanted things back the way they were. I would bend over backwards, making promises, anything to get him to change his mind. It doesn’t work. Even if she were to return in the short term, it’s out of guilt, or maybe a brief moment of clarity. If they come back quickly, they did not do the work to get through the crisis, they will do it again.
Sorry to be blunt, because I know you’re grieving and you want your life back and you love your wife, but you need to know that the marriage you once had is gone. Maybe your wife make it through this crisis and you guys will reconnect down the road, maybe she’ll live in this replay stage forever, maybe she’ll make it through still decide she doesn’t want the life she had. There is no way to know. But for now you have to act as if this is over. Fake it til you make it. Think of yourself and your children only. Make intelligent, well thought out decisions that benefit you. I’m not saying go out of your way to be a dick to your wife...but she will use you and take advantage of you if you let her, so don’t do things because you think it will make her see the light. This crisis is about her, not you. You didn’t break her and you can’t fix her.
If Your name is on the deed/mortgage, I would try to get back in the house. Make sure you are seeing your boys no less than 50% of the time. Get your fare share of everything. Get a new bank account if you have joint accounts. If she has a card on your credit card account, cancel it. See a lawyer, get an agreement in place. Take your focus off your wife’s shenanigans, don’t snoop or find out more than you need to. It just hurts and it doesn’t change anything. It will backfire.
I know this is so extremely difficulty, and likely the hardest thing you will ever go through in your life. Things are going to get harder for a long while before they start to get easier. Find one or two really close friends or a counsellor you can confide in. Be vague with mutual friends and family. Try not to rant and share every detail of your wife’s crisis with anyone that will listen. To me, it will make reconciliation harder. Also, for example if she felt like the kids teachers, friends, whatever, were making judgment on her, it will make her withdraw and cut ties even more. This will likely happen anyway.
You will think that everything I say doesn’t apply to you. You will make mistakes. It’s ok, we all do it. Don’t be hard on yourself, don’t blaim yourself for this mess. Do a lot of self reflection, but be kind to yourself...you are not the monster your wife is making you out to be and you didn’t ruin her life.
That’s my two cents, 2 years after my own bomb drop. And again sorry to be blunt, I hope I am not coming off as emotionless. Trust me, I was a hot mess for a long time. I couldn’t sleep or eat. I lost 40 pounds in 6 months. As soon as the kids were asleep I cried and paced the halls for hours every night. But I promise you it will get better eventually. Just try not to get sucked into her BS.
I agree completely with the above. I have put my faith in this place and the advice here is as expert-like as you can get. The folks on here are absolute saints.
If your wife is indeed in MLC there are plenty of resources here. As a side note, her mom's PD may have been what precipitated this (in addition to some childhood trauma). If you can, try and support the family to the best of your ability. It is a terrible, progressive disease and seeing the decline may have her progress deeper through the tunnels.
Be prepared for a bumpy ride. MLC folks will do things you NEVER thought possible--drugs, affairs with unsavory people, stealing/hiding money or property, neglecting kids and family. I don't think Hollywood's best writers could tackle some of this stuff. That smart, sensible person you love can become irrational and may shun family, friends, your kids and anyone else who gets in her way. She may surround herself with anyone who doesn't disagree with her choices.
More advice (from my personal experience):
-if you absolutely cannot move back in, get possession of the kids as much as possible. Work on getting a stable environment for them to stay with you. This will benefit them in the long run, and help you with potential custody agreements. They seem to know something is wrong and now their stability (at least for the near future) will depend on you.
-Document everything. Times she is coming home late (if you can), things the kids tell you (do not pry though), threats, irrational statements,who is watching the kids, school attendance when kids are in her possession, etc... With that said, DO NOT SNOOP. It will wear you down emotionally and some forms of snooping are illegal. Do not confront or talk to the OM. Just let it be. Learn to detach.
-She is in a teenage mindset. Do not believe any of what she says and half of her actions, they may be discordant. Do not beg or plead with her. Emotional conversations will happen at some point but the hangover from them can be disastrous for your well-being. She is in this for herself and herself only. Be suspicious of any sudden niceness--it means she wants something or has a brief moment of clarity. For me, a week of clarity led an early reconciliation and it failed miserably after one month. When she says something irrational, DO NOT reply with a rational statement. Use general phrases like "that must be difficult for you" or "I'm sorry you feel that way." She will throw daggers and any arguments will further justify her feelings for you. Stay upbeat and fake it until you make it. I spent many times happy and upbeat around her then fell apart in the shower or in a private spot at work.
-Protect yourself. I hated when people told me this. It felt like it was just something they said to be nice. It is much deeper than financially though. Your actions need to be focused on yourself and the kids. Whatever your outlet is, use it. For me it was the gym and church. Texts for visitation (prior to temp orders) are important. Try to NOT discuss other elements (money, property, alimony, etc...) in writing, she is out to lunch and you must stay focused. Stay as focused as possible at work and do not slip.
Most importantly, regardless of the outcome you will both become different people. Moving on (emotionally, romantically, physically) will be difficult. You will get through this a new and better person. Become the person she would be a fool to leave--not for her, but for YOU. There are phases to this and will not be overnight. Just know that you will be ok in the end.
I am really sorry you are going through this right now.
I am not convinced your W is in MLC I think she is just wayward right now. You should ask to have your thread moved to the Newcomers thread you will get more advice there.
The advice for a MLCer and the wayward runaway is the same. Protect yourself, your assets and financial stuff, keep the focus on you and your family. Leave them alone as much as possible to figure things out. You cannot rationalize w/someone who is in the throes of thinking life is greener on the other side.
Did anything in particular happen prior to the BD? Say 18-24 months ago?
Sit quietly, the answers will reveal themselves when you least expect them to. The past is gone, the present is a gift and you need to focus on today, allow the future to reveal itself when it is ready.
Eden, thank you for your bluntness. I've actually accepted that this is my faith.
Hamburg, I appreciate you and I agree, everyone here are experts.
LNH, thanks for your concern and suggestion.
job, Thank you as well. Nothing really happened the past 2 years. We were traveling a lot, eating out a lot, doing things with the kids, just a normal happy family. We've been too involved with our 2 boys' basketball training; winning championships almost every week, all year long.
...upon our return from a 3 week trip from SE Asia, she did a 180 on me, saying she's unhappy, not in-love, doesn't know herself anymore and wants to find herself, etc. Of course all the blame of her unhappiness is pointed at me, bringing up stuff I did 15-17 yrs ago (no infidelity). I also feel that she did have a poor upbringing. I witnessed it myself. Her dad is a heavy drinker in the past, all he does after work is drink with his buddies, doesn't spend time with her mom. I figured he's been like this since my W and her siblings were young. He'd work and just drink, doesn't spend time with the family. I feel like they were neglected hence the poor coping skills especially going through this hormonal changes.
Your W is unhappy. You can take that as a given. Now she she sees greener pastures elsewhere. Again normal. Anything she does is to seek her happiness. There is nothing wrong with that motivation. We all should strive for happiness. However during this crisis, she will do almost anything to seek her own happiness. That is the biggest problem as she will be blinded to others and the affects of her actions on them.
So why is the grass so pale on your side of the fence. That is something that you need to figure out. From your posts, you seem aware of some aspects that could have contributed. I would urge you to dig deeper and to see more. But take your time to assess this and put actions in place to change what needs to be changed. I say this because unfortunately I suspect you have along time ahead of you before she will truly see your changes. That does not mean you shouldn't change.
A good starting point is often her list of complaints or the things she blames you for. Where her issues are justified, you can take appropriate steps to improve. Where not justified, you can let them pass. A word of warning though, here we often read about a WAS complaining about ONE specific issue (or small group of issues) but once that is no longer the case, they state another as being THE MAIN reason for their unhappiness with you.
It is almost classic for her to have an affair and then say its not too late for you to make up for what YOU did! She feels justified because she feels she has been hard done by by you. This is her point of view. Whereas I find it reassuring that she says it isn't too late, I would be wary of her mindset. I don't believe she is ready to reconnect with you. BUT she has left the door open to that possibility. Time will tell how genuine that statement is, but for now use the words of CADET to guide you: Believe nothing she says and only half of what she does.
Actions speak louder than words. And she has filed for D. That in itself changes nothing for you, but does mean she is a little surer of what she wants than she said.
Normally I would advise to stay put in the house. But in this case it's her house with her mom, Plus she works from home. The two key elements to saving your M are to give her TIME and SPACE. Only you can decide the best way to give her those.
But if you do find somewhere for you and the boys, she will have more time to herself. Of course she may use that time to seek her happiness in ways you prefer her not to, but it is truly the best way to get through this. You cannot control what she will do, but you can remove yourself from the equation. Only when she can no longer blame you and still not achieve true happiness, will she have the opportunity to realise that it isn't about you at all.
I wish you luck and courage. As for her text, there is no need to reply. However I would seek legal advice. Best to be forewarned and forearmed.
Your stance needs to be that as long as there is a third person in the R, it is not possible for you to even consider a possible R with her. Don't be pulled in on the D. Don't oppose it or even say you are against it. Offer the path of least resistance, BUT do not do anything to help the D and do not let her walk over you. Hence the need for legal advice.
Best wishes
R 25 years M 14 years S11 & S13 Working on it alone since Oct 2014 M in trouble a lot earlier (~2 years) Feb 2016. 1st R chat in a yr. Next R chat Aug'17 Still together
roist: I thank you so much for all of your advice and words of encouragement. I apologize for not responding right away. About a week ago, I was approved on an apt about 4 miles from my W's residence; been busy with the move this past weekend. The boys and I are pretty happy now that we have another happy place.
Here's an update re the D, as I went over the summons and requests, etc., I see that she's seeking full/physical custody of the kids and she listed time spent with the boys were 75% with her 25% with me (in which I don't agree). I reminded her (via text) that this is between me and her; how she's unhappy, not in-love with me and how she wants to end it with me. Told her that I respected her decision for her to be happy and that the issue is not between me and the boys. I suggested that on the summons, she should've put joint custody 50/50 instead. She said she put full custody 75/25 for now. I replied by saying, "for what reason though?" Hence in my response to the summons, I will request joint custody 50/50. A mediation is set in 1.5 months.
That being said, I informed her that I was approved on an apt and that we should have joint custody of the boys and 50/50 on everything. I also told her that no spousal support and no child support needed since we both can provide for the boys on our own. She replied by saying, "Fyi, you don't have to respond. That's why we have a mediator meeting. We can try to talk about it there". My response was, "It's best to have an agreement outside court. Then we can provide the court with our proposed agreement." I also added, "It was your decision to end it with me. We deserve equal rights/time with our boys for their best interest. Let's not make a big fuss out of it. It's all about them now".
I also sent her another text giving her the address of the apt and welcoming her to come at my new place with no response.
You are trying to rationalize w/someone who isn't completely rationale. The more you try to explain to her how things should be, the more she's going to dig in. If you only get 25 percent custody, as she is suggesting, you may need to provide child support to her for the 25% of the time you wouldn't get under her so called plan.
She may drive by where your apt. is, but I would be surprised if she actually stepped into the place. Right now, she's on a mission and that is to end it w/you and jump over that fence to where she thinks the grass is greener.
I wouldn't attempt to discuss anything more w/her. The best way to handle all of this now is through the courts. She's not going to listen to you. It's frustrating, but again, the more you attempt to reason w/her, the more she's going to dig in and fight you all the way to the court house.
Sit quietly, the answers will reveal themselves when you least expect them to. The past is gone, the present is a gift and you need to focus on today, allow the future to reveal itself when it is ready.
Please do not communicate with her. It is tempting. She will endure much more than you can handle, because she's out to lunch. I, and others here, have all been there. She has inability to rationalize things and wants nothing to do with anyone by herself. I would especially refrain from doing any of this via text message. It will only come back to haunt you. Some things are easy to take out of context and could be posed as threats. Continue to gather any documents you can regarding assets, finances, etc, be there for the kids...you're in for a long, bumpy ride.
job and hamburg: Thank you both for the reminder. I just can't help it sometimes. I tend to forget that she's not her normal self. It is quite a bumpy ride indeed (and getting bumpier).
I just miss my family being together like how it was. All these changes are going too fast for me. Sigh.
Hi JNicolas. I know it's tempting. I fall into that trap, too. Listen to the wise ones here. : )
ironically, my H was always fond of saying "don't try to reason with unreasonable people". It definitely applies here. i agree with Job and Hamburg 100%. And I understand the temptation to have a reasonable convo with your W, but she isn't her anymore.
Sounds like you are really getting it all together. You are giving your kids a gift by taking care of business and focusing on what is best for them.
Re: no response from the W about the apartment. I go through that a lot too. No responses. I've learned to share less, ask less, and expect less. It's been freedom in a can.
Take care of yourself and kids.
ME47 XH44, S28 S24 S19
8/17-BD IHS: 1/17-2/19 D FILED (ME): 7/19 D FINAL: 10/20 M23 T25 OW CONFIRMED: 01/21
Do not let your hearts be troubled and do not be afraid.
job and hamburg: Thank you both for the reminder. I just can't help it sometimes. I tend to forget that she's not her normal self. It is quite a bumpy ride indeed (and getting bumpier).
I just miss my family being together like how it was. All these changes are going too fast for me. Sigh.
Thing is, you are accustomed to having an argument, making up and carrying on as usual. This will not be the case for the foreseeable future. Don't take any bait, keep quiet and work on yourself. Keep expectations to zero. It cuts deep when you send a text or say something nice and get nothing in return. I'm 8 months post BD and still get ghosted, even with normal day-to-day type conversations. Now, we are in a nuclear war so that is to be expected. It's hard but you will make it out a better person.
You are receiving some very good advice. Remember keep the focus on you and the kids. This is indeed a bumpy ride. Do know that it does smooth out, and will be better.
How are you sleeping? Do you get through the entire night yet?
Stay strong, you’re doing fine.
DnJ
Feelings are fleeting. Be better, not bitter. Love the person, forgive the sin.
Hamburg: I appreciate you as always. Hope all goes well with your sitch.
DnJ: Thanks once again! I honestly take everyone's advice here to the heart.
In regard to my sleeping pattern, I pass out pretty fast, but I do notice that when I move, I'm subconsciously thinking about my current situation and it's saddening. I just try to remind myself to accept that this is my faith and all I can really do is pray, focus on myself, my boys and my work. About a week ago, my wife sent me a text saying she's taking the boys out of town from 4/19-4/21. My lil one turns 10 on 4/16. Today she sent me a text informing me that she changed the schedule of their trip to 4/12/-4/14. I mentioned to her last week that my eldest was invited to compete in a basketball tournament this coming weekend. I guess she ignored that part. Sigh.
Sleep can be strange. I recall waking up at 4am every day for about 2 months. Upon waking it was an instant slap in the face of what had happened. After a few hours of hangover all was well. I recommend a gym membership if you don't have one.
Regarding the kids, if there are no temporary orders get possession as much as possible This is for them as well as you. Only use texts or emails to discuss this and make sure to note anytime she declines your wishes to see them. I have heard stories of one parent trying to hoard the kids in order to get preferential custody arrangement. Remind her of the BB tournament as well. That's not fair to the kid if he/she was hoping to play.
I do remember passing out quickly from exhaustion more than anything. My nights were 90 minute sleeps, max. Then jolted awake, get a drink of water, wander a bit, then crash asleep again. Repeat 4 times till morning. The first time you realize you woke up with out her being the first thing on your mind, is really good.
You are correct that your subconscious needs to accept and work through this. It takes time, and being patient. You are healing just fine, and I am impressed at how you are not trying to force things. Well done.
How are you two sharing custody and these last minute changes in arrangements for trips and such?
DnJ
Feelings are fleeting. Be better, not bitter. Love the person, forgive the sin.
Hamburg & DnJ: Yep, sleeping is very strange lately. I am pretty active as far as playing basketball with my boys during the week and playing basketball with my friends on weekends. Although I am considering a gym membership to continue staying active.
Re the kids, I do spend time with them as much as possible. 2 nights ago, my s9 slept over with me and last night s12 was his turn. I do feel that my W is trying to hoard the boys to get that preferential treatment. I don't appreciate her giving me a set time when to bring them home, this was happening prior to me getting an apt. I do feel like sending her a text re my s12's tournament invite this weekend and her rescheduling their out of town trip on the same weekend but I also feel that sending a text adds pressure.
I am consistently and continuously picking up the boys from home (when they're not spending night with me) to drop them off to school. Then after work, I pick them up from home so we can train/play and we eat dinner together.
DnJ: I just read your story and I'm sorry to hear how your W dropped the bomb on you and how she did it on T-Day. I felt the pain you, your children and your family went through. I can't believe how our wives just gave up on everything and everyone they used to love the most. It's unfathomable. Know that we're all here to support you as well.
I would peak at your county's temporary orders and use that time as a drop off. My county says 6pm. If she bothers you, just text her you'll drop them off at x:xx time. That is YOUR time with the kids, not hers. You are likely in a position where you want to tread lightly and do anything to please her. Don't let her dictate things, it will only get worse once she thinks you're her lap dog.There are ample chances to be nice in other ways, but don't compromise when it comes to your dignity or the kids. It sounds harsh, but if I could do it all over again I would have done so much differently.
Thank you for the kind and empathic words. Unfathomable is a very apt description of our wives behaviours.
At first I just couldn’t believe what she had done, threw away everything and everyone. Then I healed some more and it got worse and better - I do believe what she’s done and doing. A simple statement with much meaning.
It is quite possible that W is hoarding the kids for preferential treatment and a better settlement. Some (most ?) MLCers will use the kids to their own benefit, the crisis is all about them after all. She has stated she is seeking 75/25 split. You cannot reason with her, or expect her to see how a 50/50 is better. She will dig her heals in very deep.
If I recall you have a mediation meeting in about three weeks. That should be very telling.
Have you seen a lawyer about what you can do right now? What you can force right now? What your rights are, and what you can reasonable expect to happen?
I think you have. You could, should, have another sessions and explain your W’s latest rearranging of the schedule and your desire for 50/50. See if you have any solid immediate recourse. Remember this is just information, you need not necessarily follow it.
To my limited knowledge, the kids are both her’s and your’s. You do not have to bring them back to her any more than she has to for you. Neither of you has primary custody rights. You are being a good person and she is taking advantage.
Now that may just be a good thing, she might just be more willing to negotiate. That is usually better than the court ordered default settlement. In the beginning MLCers are more generous than later on, as a general rule.
You already have seen just how unbelievable she has behaved. Her values and what she values are irrational and messed up. A lot of crisis people do not really want the responsibility of children (mine certainly didn’t). Keep an open mind, a shut mouth, and let her lead herself and you to what she truly is after. It could be she is willing to settle for less time with the kids for more immediate access to funds. I don’t know, she might not know either. However, if she proposes something and you like it, those are the negotiations that she would agree to, she will be less agreeable to any you propose. This takes a certain finesse to get her to lead you along. You could end up with 75/25 in your favour.
Figure out what you are truly after, and what you can let go of, and what you can settle with. This why those initial meetings with a lawyer are so important, they set the stage in your mind of what your willing to do and what you will fight for. There is a lot to accept with all of this. This is probably the biggest decision of your life, do not take it, or make it, lightly.
DnJ
Feelings are fleeting. Be better, not bitter. Love the person, forgive the sin.
Hamburg: Will do just that and thanks again!. Yep, I will need to assert myself.
DNJ: Thank you. Mediation is set on 5/24. I still need to file my response to her petition and I have 2 weeks to do it. Yep, been talking to my colleague attorney and he's giving me the best advice (he took family law). He'll most likely review my response and confirm if it's good to go. What I'm truly after is joint physical/legal custody 50/50 for the best interest of the children. The boys needs both of us. Also, I want no child support nor spousal support since we both get paid the same and both can support the boys on our own. Yes, it's very hard without a partner but it's doable.
Update: 2 nights ago, she sent me a text around 11:09 pm saying: "Hi, I just wanna say congrats on your new place". I didn't respond til 630 am the next day and simply replied, "G'morning. Thanks." Then 1.5 hrs later she sent me a text re the internet/cable bills asking if I've already sent my share for it. My reply was, "I'm now on a tight budget, I'm by myself and no one is really helping me with my rent and utility bills. I also stated, "unlike in your household, you all can support each other when it comes to the mortgage and the bills". I also mentioned re my response to her petition and how it'll cost me $435 for the court fee. What a waste of money. She then replied by reminding me how we agreed on me still helping out with their mortgage and internet/cable bills and how "it's for the boys". My reply was to let her know that unfortunately things have changed and me trying to get situated are also "for the boys". I also told her that my current situation is really hard right now and kinda mentioned how our life was easy then when we're together compared to now.
I had the boys slept over with me last night since they're going out of town from Fri-Sun. I did mention to her that our eldest was looking forward to competing this weekend. Of course she never responded.
I am glad you are speaking with an attorney. It looks like you have a reasonable idea in mind.
A good rule of thumb regarding speaking with W - wait 24 hours, or better yet 48 hours, unless it is an emergency or something important about the kids. This will give you time to gather your thoughts, and let feelings subside a little. You can even ask someone to read over your response before replying, lots of people here have traveled the road you’re on and can offer suggestions.
I’ll offer mine for the conversation you had.
2 nights ago, she sent me a text around 11:09 pm saying: "Hi, I just wanna say congrats on your new place".
I didn't respond til 630 am the next day and simply replied, "G'morning. Thanks."
Well done. You waited and kept it short and businesslike.
Then 1.5 hrs later she sent me a text re the internet/cable bills asking if I've already sent my share for it.
My reply was, "I'm now on a tight budget, I'm by myself and no one is really helping me with my rent and utility bills. I also stated, "unlike in your household, you all can support each other when it comes to the mortgage and the bills". I also mentioned re my response to her petition and how it'll cost me $435 for the court fee. What a waste of money.
Proposed: The next day I sent “No.”
(Don’t feed her. She doesn’t care about your finances, it shows in her next response to you. And she sure doesn’t want to hear any blame and judgement. Yes, it is totally justified and you are correct. However, it really will do no good, and just get you upset and cause problems, especially when trying to negotiate.)
She then replied by reminding me how we agreed on me still helping out with their mortgage and internet/cable bills and how "it's for the boys".
My reply was to let her know that unfortunately things have changed and me trying to get situated are also "for the boys". I also told her that my current situation is really hard right now and kinda mentioned how our life was easy then when we're together compared to now.
Proposed: <nothing>
(There was no question. Keep things businesslike. Don’t take the bait. She is looking for a fight, for justification, and the “it’s for the boys” is just a way to try to get at you. Don’t fall for it. You aren’t even considering spousal support because you both make similar income, so she doesn’t need your support now.)
I had the boys slept over with me last night since they're going out of town from Fri-Sun. (Good. Focus on the boys and you. Enjoy your time with them.)
I did mention to her that our eldest was looking forward to competing this weekend.
(Unneeded. She already knows and still changed the dates and is still going.)
Those responses, well lack of responses, might looks harsh or mean to you, at the moment.
She is actively seeking divorce, and you do not live in the same house. JN you have your own bills to pay (something you attempted to explain to her). Mediation is 6 weeks away, and I do understand and think that “playing nice” is a good idea. So be friendly and businesslike, like speaking with your boss. Keep you replies short and to the point. She cannot, and will not, read a long reply. Remember this is all emotionally based and all about her.
Did you agree to split the mortgage and internet/cable bills? Or was it more vague like?
This highlights an interesting trait that MLCers seem to share. They have Swiss cheese memories, but can bring up things you do wrong or something you said that can be used against you. It is good to keep conversations simple and clear. And in written form, like a text or email.
Don’t worry JN, you did fine. It is difficult when our spouses reach back to us, stirs up a lot of emotions. Come here and vent, tell us, share what you are going to tell her before you send it. Buy yourself some time, it really does help.
DnJ
Feelings are fleeting. Be better, not bitter. Love the person, forgive the sin.
Solid advice DnJ. I will add that you need to beware of niceness. It's only in her favor. As you can see, you waited until the next morning to respond and the, boom, 1.5 hours later came the punchline. She's not going to suddenly change and start being consistently nice without needing something in return. DnJ said it best. Take time when responding. Anything that can be spun into you agreeing will be her ammo in mediation. Especially if in written form. It is so hard to wrap your head around right now but it's the truth. She is out for herself, period. From the get go, my father told me "she wants nothing to do with you." I didn't digest this for months, but it was/is true. Please don't take this as us ganging up on you, or that you did something wrong. We are here to help and you must absolutely protect you and your kids. As a general rule, if you're on the fence about something, take some time. Hang in there.
DnJ and Hamburg: Hope you guys had a great weekend. Thanks again to both of you for the solid advise. I will continue to keep my responses short and businesslike. Just to refresh you guys, 2 days prior to me being kicked out of their house on 3/8/19, she told me, "if I would've paid for all of our bills, I would've given us another chance", my reply was, "if that's what'll take for us to stay intact, I will". Her response was, "do all that but you still gotta leave...". I told her, "how am I supposed to support myself while paying for everything?". That was very cold and disrespectful on her part.
As I was moving from one relative's place to another during my apartment hunting, I was still helping out with their mortgage and other bills. Told her that I'll try my best to support as much as I can. But now that I have my own apt (since I'm claiming joint custody 50/50), with rent and my own bills to pay, I thought it was time to just focus on my own and the boys only.
My s9 is turning 10 tomorrow - something to be happy about. W sent me a text on Sat morning asking what my plans are for him, I replied by saying, "maybe dinner for four since that's his request?". Her reply was, "I'll let you know". I wouldn't count on it though. I kinda figured it'll be just be me and the boys for my youngest's birthday dinner - which I really don't mind at all. The boys also started their spring break this week. The W actually took the boys to Disneyland yesterday - part of her 3 day out of town plan.
With that said, while they were out, on Sat I decided to grab all my personal belongings from their house. Spoke to my in-laws and they're really bummed out about our situation. My mother-in-law who has Parkinson's was very sad and teary eyed and asked if it's really over between her daughter and me. I told her, "mom, I really didn't' want to end this, it's her choice. You guys will always be family to me and thank you for accepting me as your son-in-law. Only time will tell if we'll reconcile." I also told my father-in-law where the location of my apt is and told him they're always welcome to stop by anytime.
I'm excited to see my boys again tonight. It's only been 2 days but it feels like forever. LoL
Good idea picking up your personal belongings. It was nice to tell MIL what you did, and I know you meant it. This crisis is hard on lots of people around the MLCer, her parents are in a difficult spot.
W’s reply towards son’s birthday is pretty typical. They don’t like to share their plans. I wouldn’t be surprised if she does show up, she very well could, and it is much more dramatic with “I’ll let you know” (and a little disrespectful). Just breathe, it’s hard to take as the MLCer tries to make everthing about them, because to them it is. That being said, keep expectations at zero, and make it a great Birthday no matter what happens.
DnJ
Feelings are fleeting. Be better, not bitter. Love the person, forgive the sin.
It's been almost 3 weeks since the last time I posted. Hope all is well with you all.
So we celebrated my S10's birthday dinner with my other S12 at a Japanese restaurant. I did my best to make the evening real special for him since it's a work/school week. W didn't wanna be part of it. I had zero expectations anyway.
Good Friday I was off due to a recognized Spring Holiday at work. W texted me asking where the boys were since they slept over with me the night before. Told her I was off and will drop off the boys around noon. W was upset that I didn't tell her ahead of time that I was off. It's also both my sons' spring break that week. She was also upset because we were just at home and I didn't take them out somewhere to eat for breakfast and that I made plans around noon. My response was short and businesslike; I told her, "tons of groceries at home and to the courthouse is where I'm headed to file my response." I also sent her a text saying I'm picking up the boys to attend my cousin's housewarming on Sat (next day) and that'll only take 3 hours. Her response was, "I made plans already". I called my son the next day and asked if W told them what her plan was, my S12 says, "mom is still figuring it out".
My grandma passed the day after Easter (bless her soul). Sent a text to my W about it and she asked how. Told her I'm getting more info. My mom told me my W sent her a text condoling - mom was surprised. I got info re the viewing so I sent it to my W.
When I went to the courthouse on Good Friday, I didn't know that I needed to serve my W first before filing my response so I had my brother-in-law's wife serve my wife Tue the following week with my response. I got a text from her lashing out how/why I have all these credit card bills (she's exaggerating) (which isn't really her problem since I'm paying it off myself), how I'm never open about my finances (I'm always open; she's the one that wasn't). Started questioning if I ever think about our future at all. Asked when I'm gonna man up and own up to responsibilities. I didn't respond cause I was still formulating a response. She then sent me another text saying, "No response, etc...." that I took advantage of everything and that after 17 years I didn't step up at all. Also said that I talk sh*t about other people's situation. She said I was immature, irresponsible and hypocrite.
She was really trying to push my buttons and I felt I made a mistake by providing a long response. Few hours later I sent me response saying "I've always been honest about my finances and debts and with that said I was still able to provide for my part. Told her money was never an issue for us since we share on everything and she's making it seem like it was. Told her that I am paying off my debt and haven't swipe my credit card(s) for over a year. Told her that all these things she's complaining about are solvable. Told her too that she's making it seem that we never had a life when we really went places, ate everywhere, travel abroad and that we did it all by sharing. Reminded her that we had it good and everyone (our friends/acquaintances) envied us. I told her I've always been a family man, I work and go straight home to her and the boys. Mentioned to her that I even coached/trained and I did it all to make her proud. Mentioned to her I was never a hater nor judgmental about other people's hustle/situation and told her I have no clue where she got this from.
After 2 hrs, she sent me a text saying "So are you gonna man up or quit?" My response was, "what are you talking about now? Do you wanna talk in person? Maybe meet at my apt later so you can at least see my place?" To my surprise, she agreed to meet up with me. She brought the boys with her. As they arrived around 645p, I was smiling cause I was happy to see her and the boys, she was smiling/somewhat laughing but was trying to hold it. I gave her a hug but she made it seem like she didn't want it. We had a conversation, I was listening and was validating. Her concern was more about my debt - I explained myself again. The boys were hungry so I tried ordering pizza for us 4, she said you're spending some more?(not using my credit card) I said I'm just trying to be hospitable since you guys are here. She suggested why not cook something quick instead. I agreed and told her I would. She stayed for an 1 hr 15 min so around 8pm she decided to leave and told me to drop off the boys by 9pm. I told her to stay for dinner but she didn't want to. I didn't force her. That evening, she text me and asked me how I felt when she came over. Told her I was happy that I got to see her and we got a chance to talk in person. I asked what she thought about my place, she didn't reply.
The following day, I sent her a text asking if she will be dismissing her petition. She said she wouldn't and it will take more than a year for her to decide and that I still need to prove to her that I've changed, etc. She gave all these ultimatums (that I'm already doing anyway) and pretty much telling me not to get a life. My response was, I really want us to stay forever that it doesn't seem that she does. Told her what I don't understand she's making these demands and yet there's an ongoing divorce proceeding. I told her that if she really wants to end it, she doesn't need t lead me on. I told her as much as I care about her and the boys I think I'm done. I told her she was confused and she doesn't know what she wants. Told her that she's pretty much telling me "I'm divorcing you, you can't get a life, and you still need to prove yourself". Her response, you can't even do what I ask, that shows that you don't really love me. LOL
I filed my response on 4/26/19.
She came to my grandmas viewing last Sat (an hour away), I was respectful and kind. She said hi to my parents and some relatives whom we haven't seen in years. We ate dinner together and she never looked me in the eyes. She stayed for 1.5 hrs and left with my S10. My S12 rode back with me and spent the night. That evening I sent her a text saying I appreciate her coming to the viewing with no response.
I really felt I made a mistake reasoning with her. I'm back to detaching and doing the LRT.
I am sure S10 has a wonderful birthday with you and S12, and at a Japanese restaurant no less.
W not wanting to be part of it. Yeah, that sounds about typical. She is so depressed and angry she can’t even get out of her own way. MLCer’s empathy chips are broken; they can barely handle their own emotions never mind anyone else’s.
My condolences to you and your family on the passing of your Grandma.
Originally Posted by JNicolas
I really felt I made a mistake reasoning with her. I'm back to detaching and doing the LRT.
It’s ok. We have all been there.
You are a rational reasonable person, and so was your W. So was your W. She isn’t right now.
She is irrational and ruled by her emotions. Driven by her emotions. Yes, some rational thoughts will come to her, and she see them, then run from the pain and torrent - all that confusion you see from her. She has her past life, a fantasy life, and her current life all pressing inside her head. All active, just imagine if you had all that “current and present” within you. Holy cow! What a mess that would make.
Attempting to reason with her is pointless, she is just incapable of it right now. I know and understand, just how hard it is to let her be. You said lots, with good intentions, and with much love. She will pick what parts of it she wants to hear. However, trust me, she heard you. You don’t need to tell her again - she knows. And she doesn’t want to know.
You are absolutely correct when you saw her pushing your buttons. She is baiting you, to get you into an argument, to justify her actions and her running - to blame you. Even when you didn’t fully jump on the bait, she still blamed you. And her “reasons” make no sense. Might as well get used to that JN - her “reasons” will make no sense.
A lot of her talk is projection of what she is feeling. She can’t blame herself so she blames you. If you look and listen closely you will see “her” in her projections. Now, some of the stuff might hit close to home. That’s ok, look into it, and fix yourself if it is warranted. Make changes for you, and to be the best you possible.
Best way to defuse her attack - ignore it. Defending or attacking back, just doesn’t work - that barely works with rational people. Keep your responses short and business like. Besides her mind is Swiss cheese and she can’t follow a long conversation anyhow. That is just what happens with depression. She needs to come to her conclusion on her own, and in her own time.
Keep with the waiting 24 to 48 hours before responding to her. It lets you gather your thoughts and her to cool down.
And seriously, you did fine. You are in the middle of a strange weird situation; it takes a bit to figure out your bearings. You got some things off your chest, and you learned some stuff. Well done.
Focus on you and the boys.
So, how is your place? Large? Do the boys share a room, or have separate rooms? Play area? Couple of TVs or just one? With two boys I image they have a game system. I’ve got 3 sons and a daughter, so I have a pretty good idea of what you are facing. Your boys would love a Play Station. lol. So would you.
Stay strong.
DnJ
Feelings are fleeting. Be better, not bitter. Love the person, forgive the sin.
DnJ, I appreciate your feedback and responses as usual.
Re my place, it's a 1bd 1bath. The space is pretty big and I have 2 twin beds in the room for the boys. I sleep in the living room when they spend the night with me. I do have a PlayStation but it's at my W's home. I left if there for the boys. I will purchase another one for my own place so we all can play games like before. Last 3 nights the boys spent the night with me. This past weekend was full of homecooked meals (by yours truly), boys' basketball tournaments and of course the ongoing NBA playoffs - great games. There were moments I'd wonder what my W's currently doing but I just tell/remind myself not to care, be in the moment and enjoy the time with the boys. Today S10 left for a 2-night, 3-day trip to Catalina Island for his school field trip. I will miss my lil guy. W texted me early morning asking what time I'm dropping off S10 at home (since she will drop him off at the meet up spot), I didn't reply. W called my S12 and asked to speak with me, told her what time I'll be there and I ended the call before she did. When I dropped my S10 at home earlier, W was outside but I didn't make eye contact, I acted as if... LOL. I do miss her terribly.
Forgot to add, last Friday S10 received an award in school. He informed me 2 days prior. W and I showed up but sat away from each other. How awkward it looked for some of the teachers. Having my son go to his mom to take a pic and having to come to me so I can take my pic. W walked ahead of me, I didn't chase her nor try to talk to her at all. We just went our separate ways. Kind of a bummer our situation being like this. Sigh**
Yep. Get another PlayStation. Lol. And a couple of memory sticks for the boys to take their saved progress from home to home.
Ah, home cooked meals. And from Dad! Perfect!
I am going to assure you of something JN; me being a little further down this path. You and your kids are going to be fine, probably even great.
When my life and my kids lives changed, I was pretty scared. What the h3ll am I going to do? I am not a SAH Mom. Lots of things changed at home - the home cooked meals, the house cleaning, someone actual being here when the kids get home from school and various activities, grocery shopping, our family’s very support structure, and so on.
After 20 months I can assure you kids adjust. It is their life (and your’s), and those lives are great.
All those changes, in lifestyle, two homes (I didn’t have that one), only one parent, cleaning, shopping, sleeping, etc... become the new normal.
And as much as things changed, other things don’t change. Hmmmm....
No, I am incorrect on that!
I found, you still love your children, care for them, provide for them, and ensure they get clear of this mess. You just do it, feel it, more. You do become better! Your family, kids and you, become a tighter group, open and honest, with lots of trust and respect. It does take a little while and effort to get there. Children, teens, young adults, or still rebellious and need to lash out against authority - that’s you. However, overall things will, and do, change for the better.
When your children look back at their childhood, they will remember the sights and smells of home cooked meals, a loving home, and a wonderful and caring Dad.
The rest just fades to fact, a path that was travelled. This mess becomes unimportant, just stuff that happened. The truly important facets of our lives shine out even brighter, especially when against a dark background.
Have faith JN.
And home cooked meals.
DnJ
Feelings are fleeting. Be better, not bitter. Love the person, forgive the sin.
lol. So would you.