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H(me:) 44
W: 45
T: 16yrs
M: 13
S: 9
S: 6
Pre BD (not really recognized by either) 8/18
PA 11/18
PA suspected 12/22/18 (Denied)
PA confirmed 12/28/18
PA #2 (Different) 2/16/19
S: 4/7/2019

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As we get closer to her moving out and finalizing all documents I'm 98% sure she is going to start a conversation that revolves around this subject: "Are we still working on this relationship or not?" Because the separation has always been about time/space to get over the 'bugging" and to figure out if we can/should work on this with all the infidelity or not. Although I know now she really has some stuff to work through personally before anything can happen together - but for the sake of the kids and the basic facade that this relationship has a chance.. I believe this conversation will happen and relatively soon. I've asked a version of this question before and took the advice of the board. However, I believe the situation will be slightly different this time (maybe you well see it as nuanced, IDK) but...


Speaking of versions, you and your W certainly have two separate views of who initiated the separation and the reason for the separation. She was already looking for another place to stay when you told her that you agreed to a separation. But that's not as important as the other issue. She believes she's leaving you b/c you were bugging her conversations. In the quote above you say this has always been about having time/space to get over the bugging issue.

True to WW form, she flipped the spot light off her and on to you. Instead of this separation being about her affairs, it's b/c of you "bugging" her conversations.

Quote
Here is what feels right - right now:

W: Are we still working on this relationship or not?

Me: I will not be in an open marriage/relationship with you. Nor will I 'wait' around and try to compete with:
James -EA
Parker EA/PA
Or random guys that you want to sc&ew in your car.

(names have been changed to protect the guilty)

I have issues that I need to work on that did affect how we got to this point, but these affairs are your choice and your issue to resolve. The rush is like a drug addiction (whether you recognize it or not). If you think you can find happiness with one or all of them - then I want you to be with them. I've been here for 16yrs through thick and thin (but still not to discount what I still have to work on). You know who I am. If you don't want to be with me, I don't want to be with you. I am not a relationship option as long as these guys are still in the picture. Therefore, our ability to 'work on this relationship' is completely up to you - same as I've always said. I know these guys are still in the picture therefore I am not! I am moving on (with hope you will comeback someday) - but I cannot promise I will still be available for you then.

My focus in myself and the kids. Not you anymore. I don't care who/what you do and am glad that I don't have to have you around to lie to me on a daily basis. I'm done - until you are done with this lifestyle - period. I love you, I love our history and I believe we could get through this -but only after you have addressed you and your choices.


You are dreaming!

Quote
But if/when she addresses our relationship I like this response. It does 2 things. Allows me to address my knowledge of girls gone wild. Which I believe to be important to her recognizing her situation is getting worse not better.


First of all, you are busting a gut to reveal how much you know. And secondly, don't believe your own b.s.

Quote
I provides a full insight as to why I went from begging to detachment and moving on. It also sets the stage clearly for any future conversation about our relationship. She can no longer 'act' like she had one small indiscretion (similar to me). She is no longer able to have the 'high ground' when she compares our mutual mistakes.


And you think your little speech is going to do all of that? No, it won't. and that's why we say no relationship talk.

Look, you don't seem to realize that she could pull the same thing on you. You told her you had had multiple sexual encounters, so in her mind......you are just as guilty as she. You kept that dirty little secret from her, until you found yourself on the other end and you didn't like it. Your "confession" was not impressive, b/c you were grasping at whatever you could find to keep her from leaving. So, you thought empathizing would do the trick, and you just threw in the little fact that you have had several affairs of your own.


It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
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Originally Posted by LH19
PJ,

It's ok to do the things you need to get done around the house as long as you are not looking for a reaction from her when you do it.

You are new to the game and are learning the rules. This $hit isn't easy and it takes time. Keep posting and keep asking questions.


LH,
I was not trying/expecting to get any outward reaction. My intent was to show that 1. 180 <-- ready to do what I've been talking about. 2. Show that life goes on with or without her and that is what I'm going to focus on As well as needing stuff to keep me busy.

I know I need to NOT do things for her reaction - period. But we all know that until full detachment almost EVERY move has SOMETHING to do with her. At least until she is out of the house and not able to see it all first hand. So although I get the point it's completely unavoidable. Even doing 'nothing' is a choice and has the possibility of being interpreted as something by her.

This too is why I seem to be so torn between the "mystery" and "tough love". I try, but can't see how any of my comments about her actions would actually 'hurt' the sitch. That's one reason I'm so drawn to it. I don't see the downside. She cheated (multiple times) and yes I'm hurt and mad while also being willing to move one all at the same time. Due to the experience of the board I will probably still stick to what you and AS have stated. "we both have individual stuff to work on before we can have that conversation". However, you have to remember that I might have went farther than most in bugging the house. I have been able to hear all different sides of her story as well as the emotions she is going through that were not conversation meant for me to hear. So i'm aware of where some of her regrets/thoughts are. I know for my own sanity this is not good - which is the main reason I stopped. But it doesn't change the fact that I know there is some fear/regret/surprise going through her head about what she has done. That I want to capitalize on. I'm not delusional to think that my statements will cause u-turn in the sitch. Only that it might help affect her in getting help (IC) to discover from a 3rd party that this is fantasy land. I'm only trying to minimize her going down the rabbit hole farther and acknowledging that her actions are WAY OUT there. As she obviously believes she has a reason for the first PA (me and the R) but was surprised about her latest drunken action - doesn't seem to hurt the overall sitch. - correct again if I"m wrong. I'm a big 'debater' but I do take a lot of the advise. I'm just not good at taking it blindly. I need to understand how it helps/hurts.


H(me:) 44
W: 45
T: 16yrs
M: 13
S: 9
S: 6
Pre BD (not really recognized by either) 8/18
PA 11/18
PA suspected 12/22/18 (Denied)
PA confirmed 12/28/18
PA #2 (Different) 2/16/19
S: 4/7/2019

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Originally Posted by P_Jam
But we all know that until full detachment almost EVERY move has SOMETHING to do with her. At least until she is out of the house and not able to see it all first hand.

Just lay low for the remaining days you have left together.

Originally Posted by P_Jam
This too is why I seem to be so torn between the "mystery" and "tough love". I try, but can't see how any of my comments about her actions would actually 'hurt' the sitch. That's one reason I'm so drawn to it. I don't see the downside. She cheated (multiple times) and yes I'm hurt and mad while also being willing to move one all at the same time.

How do you think it will help?
Originally Posted by P_Jam
Due to the experience of the board I will probably still stick to what you and AS have stated. "we both have individual stuff to work on before we can have that conversation".

This would be very smart on your part.
Originally Posted by P_Jam
However, you have to remember that I might have went farther than most in bugging the house.

Didn't help your matter but certainly didn't seal your fate.
Originally Posted by P_Jam
But it doesn't change the fact that I know there is some fear/regret/surprise going through her head about what she has done. That I want to capitalize on.

If you want to capitalize on it set her free to see if she can stand on her own.

Originally Posted by P_Jam
Only that it might help affect her in getting help (IC) to discover from a 3rd party that this is fantasy land.
You would be shocked if you knew how man counselors will tell her that if she's not happy she should leave you.

Originally Posted by P_Jam
I'm only trying to minimize her going down the rabbit hole farther and acknowledging that her actions are WAY OUT there. As she obviously believes she has a reason for the first PA (me and the R) but was surprised about her latest drunken action - doesn't seem to hurt the overall sitch. - correct again if I"m wrong. I'm a big 'debater' but I do take a lot of the advise. I'm just not good at taking it blindly. I need to understand how it helps/hurts.

OPEN THE CAGE DOOR PJ OPEN THE CAGE DOOR.

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OK - your persistence is paying off.

You ask: "how do you think it will help"
1. I know she has enough left to feel bad about 'openly' hurting me. Letting her know that I know, might trigger a little more guilt
2. She is in a bit of shock about her actions - not letting her keep this EXTREME a 'secret' I think helps with the necessary loss/shame
3. as Sandi noted.. for whatever reason (probably the above) I'm bursting to let he know what I know. And if it doesn't hurt the sitch.. it's then off my chest at least and not something I'm always trying to find an avenue to discuss.

Very early on in this sitch I talked to her about sexual compulsion (because of my previous issues) I also talked about Limmerence (because of my previous issues). She flat out denied that any of this is a 'compulsion' and I think she believed it at the time. Since then she went GGW - and my thinking is.. she might start to understand the need for help. As she is not able to 'control' it. And I know she has thoughts/issues about it. Her conversations are.. "I really need to stay in 'control' tonight (when talking to friends).

Now.. when I say your persistence i paying off - it's mainly because of your point about IC probably telling her to leave me. She has asked questions about possibly seeing the same IC I see - which I think would be fine, but she is reluctant for fear of me hearing about her issues... So this MIGHT just be the reason to not give my 'speech'. If she goes to any IC (not mine) it might hurt. <-- this is making some logical sense and giving me a 'reason' not to have the conversation. But because of the above it is still not an easy decision.


H(me:) 44
W: 45
T: 16yrs
M: 13
S: 9
S: 6
Pre BD (not really recognized by either) 8/18
PA 11/18
PA suspected 12/22/18 (Denied)
PA confirmed 12/28/18
PA #2 (Different) 2/16/19
S: 4/7/2019

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Originally Posted by P_Jam
1. I know she has enough left to feel bad about 'openly' hurting me. Letting her know that I know, might trigger a little more guilt

You don't want her back because of guilt. Plus it will most likely piss her off more that you were snooping.
Originally Posted by P_Jam
2. She is in a bit of shock about her actions - not letting her keep this EXTREME a 'secret' I think helps with the necessary loss/shame

Good! The quicker she hits rock bottom the quicker she comes out of the fog.
Originally Posted by P_Jam
3. as Sandi noted.. for whatever reason (probably the above) I'm bursting to let he know what I know. And if it doesn't hurt the sitch.. it's then off my chest at least and not something I'm always trying to find an avenue to discuss.

Number 3 makes zero sense to me.
Originally Posted by P_Jam
Very early on in this sitch I talked to her about sexual compulsion (because of my previous issues) I also talked about Limmerence (because of my previous issues).

Again, you are trying to use logic and reason with an emotional human being.

Right now what you are going through is what is known as the "illusion of action". You feel like you need to do something or say something to stop the pain. Again, the only thing you need to do is to Open the Cage Door.

The reality is she is done right now and is convinced her moving out and getting rid of you is her ticket to happiness. As human's when we ignore reality we suffer and that is what is happening to you right now.

Can her feelings change? Absolutely! It's going to take awhile. There are no short cuts. This is a marathon and not a sprint and you are at .25 miles right now. Every time you pursue or have a relationship talk or try to tell her what she is feeling you go back to the starting gate.

That's reality. You can ignore reality but you can't ignore the consequences of ignoring reality.

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Farts! Double Farts!

I want to take ACTION! I want to do this ONE MORE THING! and I don't understand why her feeling 'guilty' is bad. It's not like guilt alone would change this. But yes, I want her to feel bad/guilty/remorse. <-- isn't that part of the point? Those are some of the feelings that are opposite of justification.. that is the beaning of the change (maybe)

But you are making some more sense.. just STOP! open the cage door. Be done now. <-- ?? really not after this one more thing?? FARTS!


H(me:) 44
W: 45
T: 16yrs
M: 13
S: 9
S: 6
Pre BD (not really recognized by either) 8/18
PA 11/18
PA suspected 12/22/18 (Denied)
PA confirmed 12/28/18
PA #2 (Different) 2/16/19
S: 4/7/2019

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and FYI she won't know I was snooping. She knows I was informed about the situation. So I wouldn't share the detail that would expose the snooping.


H(me:) 44
W: 45
T: 16yrs
M: 13
S: 9
S: 6
Pre BD (not really recognized by either) 8/18
PA 11/18
PA suspected 12/22/18 (Denied)
PA confirmed 12/28/18
PA #2 (Different) 2/16/19
S: 4/7/2019

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P Jam I've been studying women relationships and attraction for 25 years and I still suck at it, but also understand it somewhat well. The path towards separation and divorce is new to me however. Haven't been down that road yet so all my previous relationships have been clean breaks, which allowed quicker time to heal, without all the financial and legal mess. I've assessed all my previous relationships and realized that when I started them I was attractive, I was confident, I was secure and financially independent. I was flirtatious and sexual and interesting, and I really didn't care what the outcome was whether it was one date or 20. I've come to realize that once every one of my gf's and STBXW finally discovered all my insecurities and vulnerabilities they are no longer attracted to me. Some are willing to put up with it for the long haul as long as you correct it ASAP. When they nag on you about these things and you get defensive, stone wall, or just ignore it or dismiss it, they think that they have done everything to tell you these things, and when they BD you, you wind up in shock thinking it wasn't that bad, and they say "too little too late."

Even though I don't understand women as much as I like to think I do, and am having trouble myself implementing everything I'm learning here and elsewhere. Let me ask you this question? In a normal self-respecting, individual differentiating healthy marriage, or relationship.

In a hypothetical scenario. Not necessarily your own situation. If youre W thought very highly of herself and had a lot of self respect for herself. If you cheated on her, what do you think her actions would be? Do you think she would try to convince you of what limerace is? Do you think she would beg you to stay? Do you think she would ask you why she isn't good enough? If she had any self worth and self respect and value, she wouldn't be doing any of these things.

Although I'm being presumptuous. I think if she had that much self respect, in this hypothetical scenario, she would find the nearest lawyer, not speak with you. then file for divorce. If she was more of a compassionate person at the very least she probably wouldn't speak to you and separate, and ask you to leave. She would let you go and "open the cage door" because "she is the prize in her mind" on this hypothetical situation. This is how most attractive women think, and attractive men as well. Feelings change, they can change back with attractiveness.

Here's something I came across that might help you gain a little insight from my own research into the subject for myself.

As Steve 85 here mentions look up self differentiation in relationships. Also try looking up the different personality types in relationships, as well as cluster personality disorders in relationships. Try to gain some insight on people that are attractive and successful in relationships and why. It kind of comes down to the whole Alpha Beta male thing again but whatever. What I'm trying to say is you have to be the prize you have to be the man only a fool would leave.

She has to realize her guilt by actions and consequences. Not by you telling her. You telling her to make her feel guilt/re Morse is like you trying to tell her "she is in a limerance phase" She's not going to see it or want to hear it from you.

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IHCLACS,

All very fair and probably true. I will always wonder if I would be in the same spot if I did not admit to my infidelity at the time that I did. Sandi is right, I was trying to be empathetic (as a strategy). That being said; I really did carry a lot of guilt and remorse for my actions for a very long time. Debated numerous times if/when to come clean. I had resided the fact that is my burden to carry and not to put it on her, but NEVER do it again. Strategy or not, I thought my wife would be remorseful and want to reconcile (dumb) so I also believed I was going to relieve some of her guilt and we were going to rebuild this relationship. I had no idea about the complete mindset change of the WW at the time.

I also think that some of my resistance to this DB strategy (just some details) is related to the fact that I felt relatively confident in myself. I had/have a life. I definitely neglected my wife for a couple of years, etc. And not to defend my actions of neglect - but I can look back at MANY times I really tried to get my wife involved more in my life (socially) without the kids. She always had a reason not too. So maybe the WW goes back farther than I think. I know last year was tough because of a work/job issue I dealt with for 8 months (and didn't deal very well) - but aside from that as it relates to me and her.. I was aware that we were growing apart, I missed her, I tried to get her back (not hard enough) but I tried. I know I'm a catch, and I am the prize. But I also know because of what I learned about myself and my infidelity it was not about her. It was about me, and my inability to be upfront and forward about my needs. It was also me making very poor decisions that I cannot blame ANYONE else for. This is one reason why my sitch has the title that it does. Somewhere in here I still believe I"m dealing with a bit of MLC. My W never wanted anything except to be a mother. That turned out to be more work and less fulfilling then she expected. I really don't think she really knows what she wants out of LIFE in general. Could be wrong, maybe I"m still justifying her WW actions. But I do believe it's mixed in there somewhere. Furthermore, because of my actions in the past and what I learned, I'm also very much able to believe that my W too is still a catch and a prize. I have the unique ability to have walked in her shoes. So I know I can/could get over this as long as she really wanted to fully understand the need for extreme transparency for a while. Having this experience/knowledge is a blessing and a curse as I can clearly see and picture the future even with infidelity. I know that people and situations can change once you understand and deal with the root cause (which is more individual than it is relationship based).

But I do get it! Side note: I needed my W help today to be shuddled around while my car is in the shop. I/we were able to spend this time together (for the first time in a long time) without any weird animosity by me (which is usually me trying to be distant masked as DB). So I was able to feel the 'friendly' way to interact without pursuing. It gave me a chance to use my humor be funny, be me, without thinking about a 'strategy'. So all of these conversations today DO HELP. Even the smallest things I notice. I'm making progress. It helped me see that even when she moves out and I go NC - this must be done gently (or with love). It can't be 'running away'. It's about being present, being personable, being attractive without pursuing. Something I haven't really been able to feel or do until about 30 minutes ago. So although I have made some good/positive steps as it relates to the overall goal. I need to detach but detach with love. Which also means I need to stop trying to hurt her, by throwing her actions back in her face. I do keep trying to remind myself that she too is scared and worried and hopefully with the right amount of space/time - she will figure it all out.

I also believe that all of this gets a little easier in 2 weeks. Once she is out of the house I will be more forced to focus on me - not her. I will have to deal with other issues (loneliness, making sure I don't jump into another physical relationship for revenge, etc). but a lot of this strategy talk will minimize as the opportunity to act on any of it will be much more sparce. So I just need to keep my emotions under control for 2 more weeks. Then deal with the new life I have.


H(me:) 44
W: 45
T: 16yrs
M: 13
S: 9
S: 6
Pre BD (not really recognized by either) 8/18
PA 11/18
PA suspected 12/22/18 (Denied)
PA confirmed 12/28/18
PA #2 (Different) 2/16/19
S: 4/7/2019

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I hear ya. It's scary, unfamiliar, and lonely im sure once you realize they are going to be gone. On the other hand it'll probably stabilize your emotions and allow you to focus more on yourself which may be liberating.. I haven't hit that phase yet and I probably won't for another 6 months until we sell the house. We had the whole talk last night on her bday none the less, after giving me a hug and a sincere thank you hug for the thoughtful presents (My 180) and about how she is going to be a mess that day we sell, because of all the failed hope, dreams, and memories. W initiated convo. This time I just shut up, listened and validated, and she just kept on talking without me even having to say a thing, or show any emotions. Not a great improvement, but not bad considering we haven't R talked or even talked playfully in months kind of emotionally unavailable and avoidant.

This quote of yours is perfect.

"
It's about being present, being personable, being attractive without pursuing. Something I haven't really been able to feel or do until about 30 minutes ago. So although I have made some good/positive steps as it relates to the overall goal. I need to detach but detach with love. Which also means I need to stop trying to hurt her, by throwing her actions back in her face. I do keep trying to remind myself that she too is scared and worried and hopefully with the right amount of space/time - she will figure it all out. "

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PJ,

You’re slowly learning my friend.

If you really lover her you will give her what she wants while putting your wants and needs aside.

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Originally Posted by LH19
PJ,

I can usually get a pretty good feel early on how things will play out for a poster early on. Some have their b@lls so far down their Ws purse that I know their chances are slim and they don't want to do the work so they will continue to struggle in life. Some jump right into another relationship and most likely will be back here in 5 years. You I believe will be fine once you get her out of the house and you are able to stabilize the feelings you are having right now.

I was happy to see your follow up post to TBS acknowledging that your are BSing yourself that your sitch is different. It is NOT. In fact has a lot of similarities to mine. 

I mentioned Accuray to you and the following is a post from him that IMO every LBS just follow immediately:

Your wife believes you are the reason she is unhappy. As you probably know, the only way she's going to overcome that deeply held belief is for you to open the cage door and completely cut her free. If you engage in a relationship with her again it should only be under the conditions that:

1) She sees you as someone of extremely high value
2) She views a relationship with you as something much better than a life with someone else or a life alone
3) She's willing to work to win you

Without those three things, she's going to walk again down the line, because she really doesn't have the motivation to work with you to change anything, your relationship will keep seeking the same equilibrium it has had because of how your personalities and issues come together.

Given that you have to make things worse before they can possibly get better, separation may not be a bad choice, but I would advise pursuing a separation with the same rules you would have if you were divorced, which is to say that you don't continue to co-mingle your lives (aside from the kids) and you are free to live your own lives without social accountability to the other person.

That way she can really see if that way of life is better or worse for her. Prepare yourself that in the beginning she will view it as better, mainly because she'll find new found freedom and has convinced herself that it’s what she wants. It may take six months or two years for reality to set in, but it certainly will.

My advice would be to lean in to what she wants, agree to separate, and work productively with her on the plan with the presentation that you're on board and plan to enjoy this change also. That's going to make her wonder. You want her to wonder what you're thinking, and from this point forward you shouldn't tell her anything about your frame of mind -- nothing at all.



This is all key LH19, and you are right, we actually have to do the work on ourselves because at this phase, (What we all know already, but failed to implement because our emotions are involved are continually fluctuating due to anger, fear, guilt, attachment. ) Especially with past memories, sentiments, items of significance, etc.)

The WAW is done with the relationship and the marriage. It is solely about attraction at this point. and not romantical love anymore. Hence the  "I love you as a brother, ILYBIMILWUA"

Remember that women look at love very differently than from a man's perspective.
They want the whole package, respect given to them, and of yourself, attraction, compatibility, security physically and financially, sexually fulfilling, intimately and emotionally fulfilling and supportive, independent, personal growth, help, strength, etc. Look up Tony Robbins 7 basic human needs on YouTube on relationships. I'm sure you will gain a ton of insight from watching these videos. If you aren't meeting the 4 out of the seven needs, your relationship is going in the dumper. Women are complex. Men? Give them a little affection, a hot meal, some commonality, laughter, and hot sex frequently, and they will love you for life... Lol..

I was looking at a woman's dating profile the other day and this person's words struck me. Love (at least romantical)is having someone return what your wants are, your needs are, and what you yourself have to offer. (Meaning personality and attractiveness, unless they are a gold digger.) This is exactly why you have to GAL, focus on you, let the W go, and detach. Write down everything the W has said that you need to change and work on it for you and you only. Because it is currently "too little too late"

Even though WAW's do rewrite marital history, and sometimes fail to see their own shortcomings sometimes, or it may take longer for them to realize it's after you're gone that you weren't entirely the problem. Make that list and improve on those things and make them your personal goals for you and only you.

Because most WAW are looking to reinvent themselves, try new things, change lifestyles, living places, exercise routines, etc, empower themselves once they hit this phase. I'm thinking it's probably because they felt like they gave so much of their self away to a marriage that they feel like they're a former shell of themselves. I've heard that from my W as well as other women blogging. So m.en, make yourself more attractive, and improve yourself in every area of your life that you can.

Gone and done is the WAW. She unconditionally loves your children, her family, and possibly a few friends . That is it. It is about attraction the same way you attracted her to you when you first met. You are no longer attractive in her eyes anymore and do not provide value as a man. It's taken me six months to realize this and going back and forth daily between having so many problems in my life (broken car, massive amount of debt, overdue bills and credits, working 15 hour days , incomplete projects around the house for 7 years, financially dependent, co dependancy,  between my emotions and actually attempting to get my own life together. Not having enough time or money to even GAL, therapy, undefined goals. Being constantly emotionally frustrated because of all the external circumstances. Undefined goals. All these things are unattractive and problematic to the WAW. This is not what an alpha male looks like. This is not what is considered attractive. I could dress up every night and go out and smell like roses, go out and have fun, and even go on a few dates if I wanted to. It's not going to attract the WAW back, but it will help. I can do everything right and bend over backwards for her get all the projects done, make her coffee every day, and other niceties. Most of the guys on here including myself keep making the mistake of troubleshooting the relationship over and over and over. Take the list of improvements and make them your goals with or without her.

LH19 is right. You can't nice them back, you can't mean them back, you can't beg them back, you can't guilt them back, you can't convince them back, and you can't trick them back. You are dealing with a creature that makes emotional decisions, along with intuition, that they (follow their heart if it feels right.) You can't manipulate, with fake it till you make it trickery, but in theory, you possibly can change their feelings. That's what feelings do. They change. all of you know this as fact because you're experiencing emotional rollercoaster going through this. something else I realized to is adaptability try to be more adaptable and less rigid in your thinking and your actions. for some it may take a while to get this I know it's been a struggle of most of my life. Some W will blame the demise of the M on chemistry or compatibility, some will blame it on a lack of what you couldn't anticipate what their needs were, etc, some cheat to get even, in some she just for the hell of it so they want to see if the grass is greener. I know I'm making a generalization hear about women, but I noticed that most of them have a tendency to ruminate on percieved hurts and disappointments, like they keep a tally on it.

.

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Ok I"m back for some more journaling (and probably some debate).

I finished 3 of 6 of Sandi's WW threads - there is some real DB/WW gold in there but one from Zues126 that caught me just right tonight:

"Watching an emotionally empty woman that was in a lot of pain give herself physically to other men to feel important and attractive, well I just feel bad for her."

This hit me because it felt like true detachment (at least in regards to the A). It felt inspirational. But I also recognized the difference in emotion. It was sympathetic and not empathetic. It felt confident. It is not the overwhelming feeling I have but I feel a bit of this and wish I had more of it. It also allowed me to reflect on how each different emotion has a unique spin on the entire sitch. So then I recognized the anger emotion and when not used too strongly, also has some very inspirational characters for the WW sitch. However, it seems that the vets and the board really do not use/play on this emotion at all (except in the beginning where most people cant actually use it). Let me explain: If a person was educated on DB before BD - the best PA-BD scenario wold be one of confidence (I know some will argue against it) but also anger. The steps would be to move the WW belongings out of the MB, tell them it is over and to plan quickly for their exit - Period. Now, I know some will say this is just self respect and confidence but BS if we aren't also implying that anger is a very strong emotion in this scenario. But after the BD event it's all about being 'happy' but not pursuing. Yes there is some tough love talk but just like in my situation i'm expected to have a facade that doesn't really include anger. Obviously I recognized and spoke of the opposite above (detaching with love) - but love and anger are not mutually exclusive in situations like this. I also recognize that the speech I previously wanted to give had some anger in it - and all suggested against it (and probably rightfully so) but I'm finding my anger to be a great motivator for me to actually detach and move on. Especially considering you all keep reminding me how much time this will take (some other DB gold from Sandi on the time subject in her threads but I'll save that for another post).

Now here is the point and why it affected me tonight. After my great day with the W having friendly conversation that had nothing to do with pursuing... I came home and she was going to the apartment to put together more furniture. No big deal, actually helped her load heavy boxes in her car and made some more jokes. Then she asked for another piece of furniture to have from the house. A relatively small/cheap piece. In hindsight I know I should have just said yeah - sure, take it. But I didn't. I pushed back a little. Not a lot, but between the two of us it became a little issue that sprouted other points of contention. (that fact that she is packing all things while I"m not around and taking them to her apartment). Which I kind of knew would be the case to begin with (i'm getting the house and 95% of everything in it - so yes she can basically take what she wants. But it is uncomfortable not really know what she is taking that I don't see or recognize. So I made a small point about this. In short it was a small spat and I backed right away from it and basically apologized and said yes please take it! Then she left and I felt bad/guilty because I knew the conversation should have never went there. I wanted to text and apologize again after she left - then it hit me. No F-her. I shouldn't have made it a big deal, but who the F cares. Is this little spat really going to make a big different 6-12 months down the road? NO. I'm mad, I'm betrayed, she is Wayward and GGW. I don't give a Shut that she is a little pissed off. And why should I? I have plenty of time to be detached and not angry in the next year(s) - right? I get the fact that begging/pursuing can make the long-term situation worse. But what self respecting man wouldn't be angry in this scenario? Why cant I be Pi$$ed? and show some of it?

If you cant tell my point is: if we are to detach, anger is a great motivator and me attaching to the idea that I've been betrayed and I am angry and I don't care to make every little aspect easy for her. I'm pi$$ed so what. As long as I'm not pursuing - what do I care what she thinks right now. It's already going to get worse before it gets better. Why do i have to be so "careful" all the time?

I'm having a hard time understanding detachment that coincides with waiting for her. I guess I'm just more black/white. Either in or out.

After reading Sandi's post about the process and time for the U-turn, tonight I'm leaning towards just being done! and that feels like detachment! Of course this might change tomorrow but it doesn't mean it's not real or relevant as a factor.


H(me:) 44
W: 45
T: 16yrs
M: 13
S: 9
S: 6
Pre BD (not really recognized by either) 8/18
PA 11/18
PA suspected 12/22/18 (Denied)
PA confirmed 12/28/18
PA #2 (Different) 2/16/19
S: 4/7/2019

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Originally Posted by P_Jam
So then I recognized the anger emotion and when not used too strongly, also has some very inspirational characters for the WW sitch.

Anger can be a great motivator when used correctly. Think about in Rocky IV when Rocky crumbled the picture of Drago that was on his mirror after looking at it everyday while training.

Originally Posted by P_Jam
In short it was a small spat and I backed right away from it and basically apologized and said yes please take it! Then she left and I felt bad/guilty because I knew the conversation should have never went there. I wanted to text and apologize again after she left - then it hit me. No F-her. I shouldn't have made it a big deal, but who the F cares.
Its ok to stand for yourself when appropriate. If you didn't want to give it up then you shouldn't have. Just don't stand for something and then back down when she gets mad. That makes you look weak.

Originally Posted by P_Jam
Is this little spat really going to make a big different 6-12 months down the road? NO. I'm mad, I'm betrayed, she is Wayward and GGW.

I agree it means nothing.
Originally Posted by P_Jam
I don't give a Shut that she is a little pissed off. And why should I?

You shouldn't. Water off a ducks back.

Originally Posted by P_Jam
Why cant I be Pi$$ed? and show some of it?

Who said you can't?

Originally Posted by P_Jam
If you cant tell my point is: if we are to detach, anger is a great motivator and me attaching to the idea that I've been betrayed and I am angry and I don't care to make every little aspect easy for her.

You shouldn't make it easy for her. Every move you make should be regarding what is best for you and the kids.

Originally Posted by P_Jam
I'm pi$$ed so what. As long as I'm not pursuing - what do I care what she thinks right now. It's already going to get worse before it gets better. Why do i have to be so "careful" all the time?

You don't. The thing is if anger was one of her complaints against you then she will think this is more of the same from you.

Originally Posted by P_Jam
I'm having a hard time understanding detachment that coincides with waiting for her. I guess I'm just more black/white. Either in or out.

I will post my version of detachment below. It is currently how I live my life. I think you may be confused. No one is saying to wait for her. You definitely need to be moving forward. When you attain true detachment you will be happy one way or another. If she wants to recon fine. If not, that is ok too. I live my life like my ex is never going to want to recon. I never pursue. I do not analyse to death anything she says or does. I do not long for her or my old life. Having said all that if she wanted to recon I would at least have to think about it RIGHT NOW. She is the mother of my children and we have a lot in common. We just came from two families who are both horrible in relationships so of course we adopted the characteristics.
Originally Posted by P_Jam
After reading Sandi's post about the process and time for the U-turn, tonight I'm leaning towards just being done! and that feels like detachment! Of course this might change tomorrow but it doesn't mean it's not real or relevant as a factor.

That's because right now you are on top of the roller coaster and slowly moving towards the big drop.

Today I will commit myself to detachment. I will allow myself and those around me the freedom to be as they are. I will not rigidly impose my idea of how things should be. I will not force solutions on problems, thereby creating new problems. I will participate in everything with detached involvement.

Today I will factor in uncertainty as an essential ingredient of my experience. In my willingness to accept uncertainty, solutions will spontaneously emerge out of the problem, out of the confusion, disorder, and chaos.

The more uncertain things seem to be, the more secure I will feel, because uncertainty is my path to freedom. Through the wisdom of uncertainty, I will find my security.

I will step into the field of all possibilities and anticipate the excitement that can occur when I remain open to infinity of choices. When I step into the field of all possibilities, I will experience all the fun, adventure, magic, and mystery of life.

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Thanks LH,

not the responses I was expecting actually.

It was a completely non-essential piece of furniture. The correct way to handle it would have been "yes of course take it. I don't care" - cause I don't. That is why I backed down, not just cause she got mad, I shouldn't have even pushed back on this small piece at all. I know I"m getting the better end of the deal in regards to house and goods (but not by as much as she thinks) if we really went to court and brought EVERYTHING into community property that would bring her 401K into play (which because of me paying for mostly all 'overhead' is much bigger than mine). She knows this deep down inside, but has no idea how the numbers would actually wash out in the details, so she's just attaching her financial loss (compared to me) because of ignorance. That being said; I really don't want to go to court and let the attorneys win all the money either.

She's interpreting this as me 'punishing' her. Which I admit there is a piece of that. I do not want this move to be easy, I do want her to have to struggle a little. Definitely not to the point of affecting my children, but she created a lot of debt herself (that I'm not involved in). She makes good money but this debt will weight her down for a long time. But even with it she can afford her 50% of child rearing - she just won't be saving or creating any ability to get out of her problem in the next few years. Because we were not married there is still community property in play as we were together for so long, but there is no such thing as spousal support in this situation. But I am getting off easy financially - so I need to focus on not making mountains out of mole hills here. But back to the 'punishing' - yes I am and its specifically because of something she said (again) during this fight. "Hey, look! I know i'm the one "moving out" <-- she actually used air quotes with her hands to emphasize sarcasm, but YOU are not the victim here!!" <-- I almost lost it on this one. How in the F- am I not a victim? <-- This is the underlying factor that wants me to strike back with things like my GGW speech, and letting her know what I know. I'm definitely a victim of your emotional abuse and blatant disrespect!

Anger was not every one of the complaints against me. This is about punishiment which she doesn't believe she deserves. She has fully justified all actions in her head.

I like your definition! I'm going to copy it and add it to my inspirational things I try to read when I get down. Here is one I read often to continue to try and internalize the logic into emotion and feeling for myself:



Just Let Them Go

The end result?

The end result is to respect yourself in the end,
let go of the people that don't value you or respect you.

That is the end result.

The quickest way to get a cheating spouse back is to let them go with a smile on your face wishing them the best in life and hoping that everything works out in their relationship with their affair partner.

Seriously, the quickest way to get them back.

Nothing else works better or quicker.

Let them go.

Agree with them and their feelings,
"you should be with the OM, I hope he makes you happy, good bye"

Wouldn't that be true love?

If you really loved your spouse,
and wanted them to have what they really want in life which is the other person they're in love with,
wouldn't letting them go be the approach if you really love them?

Why focus on the affair or the drama associated with it?
Just let them go. Give them their freedom.

You can take a good hard look at yourself in the mirror everyday and improve yourself but do it for you, not for someone else, the changes will never stick when it's done for someone else, do it for your benefit and you will probably make those changes last much longer if not indefinitely - because it's for your benefit and you realize the importance and value in that benefit because YOU are involved.

I will never tell someone to change to entice a WAW back when she's been cheating on him. I don't care how bad a marriage, there is never an excuse for cheating. That is a personal decision that someone makes to cheat on their spouse. If a marriage is really bad, leave, get a divorce, speak up to your spouse and tell them flat out "this marriage [censored] and if things don't change I'm going to leave you and find someone better" and if things don't improve, leave that person.

But cheating, no excuses.

Think about cheating.
A wayward spouse who cheats on their spouse goes behind their back, secretly, telling lies, feeling guilty, getting angry at their spouse for getting in the way of their fantasies but never owning up to their actions, never admitting what they're doing. If a person who cheats on their spouse felt justified in their actions, why hide and go behind their spouses backs when they start cheating, why lie, why make up excuses about late nights at work and going to a friends place and sleeping over because they drank too much and any other such nonsense?

Deep down, the cheating spouse knows there is something inherently wrong with their actions otherwise they wouldn't lie about their actions and hide what they're doing.

Fighting the affair? For what reason?
To compete with the OM or OW for your spouse?
What message does that communicate to your wayward spouse?
They have lots of value and you have none because now you have to compete with another person for their love? Competing with your wayward spouse's affair partner never works, it just prolongs an ugly drama filled process.

And for your last point,
The easiest way to show you will not tolerate cheating in your relationship is to let that person go. That is the easiest and most effective way to show this.

"Look wife/husband, I won't be in an open relationship with you, I won't give you X number of days, weeks, months to make your mind, if you really feel like you need to sit on the fence on this decision and can't decide between your affair partner and me well I will make the decision for you, you can be with them because I'm no longer an option. I love you and wish you a good life with them and hope it works out for you because it didn't work out for us. Now the best thing we can do for each other is to make this process as graceful and peaceful as possible for us and our children, I'll contact a lawyer/mediator and get started on the process of our legal separation/divorce."

You give them what they want.
You don't fight them on this issue.
You agree with their feelings,
they want to be with the other person, fine they should be with the other person, let them be with the other person.

You will never convince a person to change their feelings with your arguments and logic. You can not find one member on this website in a situation where they are dealing with infidelity where they got their spouse to change their mind about how they feel about their affair partner.

You can't say "don't love them, love me instead",
you can't say "look at me, I'm better in every way compared to your affair partner, pick me instead of them",
you can't say "you took marriage vows, you promised to love me"

I agree, you don't have to make it easy for your wayward spouse to have an affair, but when you let them go, "lovingly detach", you don't have to worry about making it easy for them. It's no longer your concern, they can have you or them but not both and not at the same time and since they've chosen to have an affair, they've made their choice, there is no profit in fighting that decision. Let them go and move on with your life, that is the quickest, easiest way to get them back.

You definitely don't support them financially and enable them, that would be weak, wussy, clingy, insecure behavior - something in you telling you that you need to support them financially while they're having an affair, hoping they'll realize how nice you are and come back to you.

Just let them go, have them move out or you move out and live a good life without them.


H(me:) 44
W: 45
T: 16yrs
M: 13
S: 9
S: 6
Pre BD (not really recognized by either) 8/18
PA 11/18
PA suspected 12/22/18 (Denied)
PA confirmed 12/28/18
PA #2 (Different) 2/16/19
S: 4/7/2019

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Originally Posted by P_Jam
not the responses I was expecting actually.

What did you expect?
Originally Posted by P_Jam
I know I"m getting the better end of the deal in regards to house and goods (but not by as much as she thinks) if we really went to court and brought EVERYTHING into community property that would bring her 401K into play (which because of me paying for mostly all 'overhead' is much bigger than mine).

If you know your'e getting a good deal then don't cut off your nose to spite your face.
Originally Posted by P_Jam
That being said; I really don't want to go to court and let the attorneys win all the money either.

You are a very smart man.
Originally Posted by P_Jam
She's interpreting this as me 'punishing' her. Which I admit there is a piece of that. I do not want this move to be easy, I do want her to have to struggle a little.

Don't worry about punishing her. She certainly will struggle without your help.
Originally Posted by P_Jam
But I am getting off easy financially - so I need to focus on not making mountains out of mole hills here.

You are a very smart man.
Originally Posted by P_Jam
"Hey, look! I know i'm the one "moving out" <-- she actually used air quotes with her hands to emphasize sarcasm, but YOU are not the victim here!!"

Your children are the only victims in this breakup.
Originally Posted by P_Jam
I'm definitely a victim of your emotional abuse and blatant disrespect!

Please clarify what you mean by this statement.

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As far as 'victim' - yes I guess I"m a little confused. If I'm not a victim of these actions and her betrayal - What am I?

I know that I "shouldn't" act like a victim - as I will be okay with out her as well has having something to do with the breakdown of the marriage - but what then is this, from my perspective. He ongoing PA/EA after being confronted and told that she cannot continue while living under this roof, as well as treating me like I"m 'crazy' for snooping and following up to prove she is lieing (feels a little abusive). What is a better term?

Agreed, kids the major victims as they had NO part in this at all. Don't deny that.


H(me:) 44
W: 45
T: 16yrs
M: 13
S: 9
S: 6
Pre BD (not really recognized by either) 8/18
PA 11/18
PA suspected 12/22/18 (Denied)
PA confirmed 12/28/18
PA #2 (Different) 2/16/19
S: 4/7/2019

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LH,
I just expected a little more 'debate' from you on the anger side of things. Like I said, I do have some anger/feelings that I want to get off my chest. Whether it's the best DB strategy or not. Such as my speech and letting her know more of what I know. I'm bothered by the fact that she can continue to say that "you're not the victim" As if she is. Even if victim is the wrong term - I'm sooo very frustrated that I have to look her in the eyes and listen to this defensiveness and justification.

I was unfaithful too, I'm not better than her. But I am much farther in my recovery and I completely own my mistakes/decisions. Watching her escape all of this without my retort - is extremely frustrating. Even in normal days, but especially when she tries to throw it directly in my face. I have done her wrong, I get that - but she seems to forget that she too has done me wrong. Most recently, which is actually why we are where we are.

Last edited by P_Jam; 03/29/19 05:52 PM.

H(me:) 44
W: 45
T: 16yrs
M: 13
S: 9
S: 6
Pre BD (not really recognized by either) 8/18
PA 11/18
PA suspected 12/22/18 (Denied)
PA confirmed 12/28/18
PA #2 (Different) 2/16/19
S: 4/7/2019

Joined: Feb 2017
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Originally Posted by P_Jam
Her ongoing PA/EA after being confronted and told that she cannot continue while living under this roof, as well as treating me like I"m 'crazy' for snooping and following up to prove she is lieing (feels a little abusive). What is a better term?

This is controlling behavior dude. Look man I am on your side but I think you have control issues. You are also dieing for her to know that you know so she doesn't think she has one up on you. These are things you should be working on with your IC.

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Originally Posted by P_Jam
I'm bothered by the fact that she can continue to say that "you're not the victim"

She's not going to walk around town saying you know what PJ was the best husband/BF ever. He was kind, generous, loving, great dad, funny, spontaneous etc.

How in the h$ll could she justify to everyone (including your kids someday) that she was leaving you to tramp around town? Of course she will paint you as the victim. It's your choice to act like the victim.

No one will every say or make you feel a way that you don't allow them to.

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LH,

Again I appreciate your directness. I get it, I may be a victim but only if I accept it. I guess the goal/point is to get to a point where I don't feel like one?

Regarding control: Fully accept your criticism and agree. This is one MAJOR issue I am working on with IC. I was taught at a young age (through my parents divorce) when I had to take on the role of 'parent' to control situations. I had no other skills/tools to deal with the crisis and was thrust into a role I shouldn't have been. <-- no excuse, just fact. I need to resolve this. I would also say that the general control issue is also affecting my overall ability to detach right now. But I'm curious how/why my comments made this so obvious to you? Which part? The snooping (which a lot of done), or the need to 'get this off my chest'. Generally speaking I'm sure it's a combination - but I would guess you're referring to me NEEDING to have my 'conversation' with her? A more mature individual really would not have this need?

I've dealt with crisis all my life, a lot because I've even learned to create crisis to then 'solve'. I ruminate and always feel like I should be doing something. Very little stillness.

I'm also sure that i had some control issues in my relationship over the years, but I am having a harder time identifying them. Early on in our relationship I had trust issues. But she did a great job in helping me get over that (as well as jealousy). When I reflect on our issues I find that I was more controlling in the sense of NGS and covert contracts, etc. More about not being upfront with my needs and using more of a manipulation to get what I wanted. So not in the same sense that I feel the 'control' problem right now. For example; It has been extremely tough for me to stop snooping. I I'm felling withdrawals - but have this NEED to always know what is going on. I know stopping the snooping and facing this head on is part of resolving this issue - but doesn't mean it's easy. But i did not snoop or watch my wife, or control what/where/when she went in ANY way. It's not even a BD complaint. Mostly that I was 'moody' and she often felt like she was walking on eggshells around me. This was more of the NGS as described above and a way for me to feel emotionally protected. Not necessarily the same type of control issues you so rightly identified. So i'm really looking for your insight and any suggestions.


H(me:) 44
W: 45
T: 16yrs
M: 13
S: 9
S: 6
Pre BD (not really recognized by either) 8/18
PA 11/18
PA suspected 12/22/18 (Denied)
PA confirmed 12/28/18
PA #2 (Different) 2/16/19
S: 4/7/2019

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It's just a sixth sense I have now after reading hundreds of sitches.

I think that now that you are starting to understand that this is not going to play itself over night your'e realizing you have time to work on yourself and see how this plays out.

My ex broke down in our first MC appointment saying "I always feel like I am walking on eggshells." That's when I first realized this wasn't going to be fixed anytime soon. My needs weren't being met and I was passive aggressive which I wasn't even aware of the term at that point.

Four and a half years ago I went to stay at my friends for a night after I found out about my exs EA. I thought it would be fixed and everything would go back to normal by the end of the weekend. Four and a half years later I am still getting use to my new normal.

Last edited by LH19; 03/29/19 08:43 PM.
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wow, 4.5yrs? Have you 'moved on' even though you would still recon? Dating? How old are the kids? Do you still consider yourself actively DB'ing? or just living 'normal' now with hope that she'll come around some day?

I'm sure you can tell it's been rough couple of days for me. Today especially and for the first time I really can't identify it. It's just this under current. I'm leaving tomorrow for 7 day golf trip. Have really been looking forward to getting away, but today I can't feel that excitement. I don't feel too ''worried" about the trip, I'm pretty sure I'll relax a little tomorrow once I'm on the road. It's probably because when I return is when she moves out. last week I was really looking forward to her moving, my mind was on the projects/space and solitude of not looking at her every day.

Just had another 'talk' with her as we were on our way to our son's school where he received an award. She wants to go to the apartment again tonight to finish putting together furniture (like she did last night but came home drunk as well). It' just got under my skin. And I just sighed and said "man I cann't wait until I have some space". She said: "we'll that wasn't necessary". I told her I didn't mean to be rude, but its just so tiring to deal with whole process of moving out over an entire month. I know that's probably what she is doing (having wine with a friend and finishing the apartment) but it's just so exhausting to think/wonder what she's doing/thinking. What could have been? It seems easy for her right now, even though she says it's not.

Anyway, I'm only guessing the timing is what's going on inside of me. But I really don't know.. Up until this point I've always been able to identify what issue/situation is affecting which emotion. today is just BLAH! It's days like today that I want to reach down and find "anger". So that I can think of her as a worthless slut, be disgusted by the image in my head and hate her. But I've have yet to feel any hate. Remorse, anger, DISAPPOINTMENT, anxiety all come rushing in daily - but not hate. I do look at her differently, when she's naked in the bathroom or something I find myself finding pieces that aren't attractive and trying to build off that so that I can try to find more hate. But I have to work on it. She's the mother of my children and she's done great at that (up until now).

Welp.. so it's a bad day. I have another shot tomorrow! Thanks for the chat.


H(me:) 44
W: 45
T: 16yrs
M: 13
S: 9
S: 6
Pre BD (not really recognized by either) 8/18
PA 11/18
PA suspected 12/22/18 (Denied)
PA confirmed 12/28/18
PA #2 (Different) 2/16/19
S: 4/7/2019

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I have moved on and I am dating in fact I have a date on Sunday with a WAW. I DB every day but that has nothing to do with my ex and is a way of life. I wouldn't say I hope she comes around I would just say if she did I would have a decision to make. My kids are 14 and 10 are doing great. Minor hiccups in the beginning but none lately. I will be divorced a year next week.

It's easy for her because most likely she checked out years ago and is over it. Plus right now she knows she can have you back at any minute. There is no risk involved. Like Accuray said in the beginning she is going to enjoy her new found freedom.

You are going to have good days and bad days but I promise you how you feel right now won't last forever. One day at a time my friend.

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Alright, up a little early before kids football and getting on the road for my trip. Wanted to give a quick update from yesterday. Feeling a bit better this morning, not quite the excitement I had hoped to feel but definitely not the BLAH I was yesterday. Had a couple beers last night with a buddy as well as talked it out with some family.

I think I"m actually starting to grieve. I think all the information and help on this board has started to get me to accept the amount of time this will take. And the reality is really setting in that this relationship is over. At least that is the direction I'm going now. In REALITY this relationship has probably been over for a very long time. I'm STARTING to actually accept this fact, and I think next week when she's out - I'll be spending my time alone actually processing some of that much more deeply. Although I can still picture a future and have some hope, I'm also wanting to understand how I move forward. And for me, I believe detachment and letting go will be directly tied to accepting this is over. Anything that MIGHT happen in the future with her is not only out of my control, but I'm not sure I want to 'wish' for it anymore. After a good talk last night; I"m thinking that any recon would be better years down the road anyway. After we've both actually moved on and then MAYBE another relationship starts up more organically (essentially less rebuilding of issues we're dealing with now and more just naturally starting over.)

I think I want this closure - I know I want this closure. I love her, but I really 'shouldn't' want her right now. She doesn't want me. As I've said many time throughout my thread - I think this means (for me) that I start moving on (not just letting go) but actually accepting the fact that I need to get myself to a point that I'm able to start looking a other relationships. In other words.. There is NO WAITING for me in this detachment. This eliminates DB as a game/strategy and only a way of life - as LH has said. This mindset really allows me to not care and not let her affect my feelings. I want to stop trying to think that recon is the best outcome. It probably isn't - and regardless it can't be forced.

Well that's how I feel today. It seems simple, I know in practice it will be a little harder - but if I can actually keep the 'mindset' it's almost like DB'ing comes naturally - since I now understand how this works. And knowing that any short term texts/temperature checks/calls from her in the next 2 months (at least) are only to help her feel more secure in plan B. So I move forward with no thought of anything. She's on her own, AND SO AM I!

I'm gone for 7 days. Will still be checking this thread for any good adviCe as well reading others for motivation. If I get a chance I will check in.

see you on the other side.

PJ


H(me:) 44
W: 45
T: 16yrs
M: 13
S: 9
S: 6
Pre BD (not really recognized by either) 8/18
PA 11/18
PA suspected 12/22/18 (Denied)
PA confirmed 12/28/18
PA #2 (Different) 2/16/19
S: 4/7/2019

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I was taught at a young age (through my parents divorce) when I had to take on the role of 'parent' to control situations. I had no other skills/tools to deal with the crisis and was thrust into a role I shouldn't have been. <-- no excuse, just fact. I need to resolve this. I would also say that the general control issue is also affecting my overall ability to detach right now.


Detaching is letting go of the control. It is dropping the rope you have tied around her. You can't detach and hold on to the rope.

Are you experiencing some the same emotions that you had when your parents divorced? You felt thrust into a role then, when actually you were an innocent victim. Currently, you find yourself in a very similar situation. Perhaps you were not allowed to express your perspective as a child from divorced parents, IDK. Maybe that's why you feel the strong need to tell your W how much you know and how you feel. I'm not a psychologist. I am a former WW, and I can tell you that you will not change your W's mind by having this talk with her. It will not solve the problems. You will not evoke the feelings in her that you want her to have. That is control. You don't like it if you aren't allowed to feel what you feel. So, give her that same freedom, and stop trying to control her feelings.

She's not the one coming to the board, so we can't talk to her. We can't help her. We can offer you support and share what we've learned.


It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
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Quit talking to her about her apartment. You are looking to talk to her about anything but it's only hurting you. You have to quit worrying about her, it's only hurting you... you see the train of thought here?

Her not being around will help you a ton. Make the most out of this time you will have and become a great guy. (Not that you aren't already haha didn't mean that)


H 34
W 29
BD 3/12/18
Divorce Busted Spring 19

It is not things that bother us, but the stories we tell ourselves about things.
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Sandi,
That is a great question. I’ll have to think about the feelings then vs now. My father was out of control and it was my job to control him at the same time he was also using me to try and help control the overall situation.

I wanting to tell her is 2 fold. Just general control (like LH pointed out) I want her to know she doesn’t have 1 up on me. I have 2 up on her. I think it’s WAS also the underlying feeling that if I could show how extreme the situation was for her character as well as how badly it hurt me, she might have some compassion. I know, nuts!

Ovrrnbw,
I know, she brought it up not me. She needed me to handle the kids (again). Also, I can ALWAYS tell when she is going to see OM. Back when I was snooping I always got this weird feeling when I was around her. I would the prepare to snoop that night. I was right 100% of the time. I’m pretty sure she saw him last night. Don’t think there was sex but I believe he was involved in one way or the other last night. So it was this feeling that caused me to temp check the situation and why I was uncomfortable helping her achieve this.

She’s out next weekend. I’m gone all week. Talk about her coming and going is now in the past.


H(me:) 44
W: 45
T: 16yrs
M: 13
S: 9
S: 6
Pre BD (not really recognized by either) 8/18
PA 11/18
PA suspected 12/22/18 (Denied)
PA confirmed 12/28/18
PA #2 (Different) 2/16/19
S: 4/7/2019

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I've dealt with crisis all my life, a lot because I've even learned to create crisis to then 'solve'. I ruminate and always feel like I should be doing something. Very little stillness.


Do you think you created the crises b/c you would feel better when you solved it?

I wonder if you are thinking too much about how you feel. Know what I mean? Like, however you feel each day should be examined and determined why you feel a certain way. You know that old saying, "He must have gotten up on the wrong side of the bed"? Sometimes we just feel blah for no reason.

How old were you when your parents divorced? I'll have to admit that reading about your dad makes me feel a range of emotions. There are a lot of kids who have been really challenged by their upbringing.

I've learned being in a M for a long time, doesn't mean it necessarily gets easier.......you just have different challenges. Life is always changing. People change. The future finds a way of surprising us. The only thing you can control is you.

Have a great week! ((hugs))


It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
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Hello All,
Back from my golf trip - went well, actually won the group tournament. I was able to not focus as much on the situation although it was always in the back of my mind (expected). It really started to hit me again on my 7hr drive home. Knowing that when I return I had 2 more days with her in the house before she is gone, and these 2 days would require my final help to get her set up in the new apartment (work computer). I had originally planned on a simple update of my sitch once I returned but it is the morning of her last day with us together and she initiated a "good bye" or R talk and I had to jump on here and try to re-cap word for word to see how I did. I already think I made some mistakes as I did more than validation - but it felt like the final stand and I had to get some stuff out there.

W: So it's my last day here I hope we can still talk as we move forward

Me: hmm... well, we can still talk about the kids of course. (weird facial expression from W)

W: I still love you (Insert my real name here) and you've been a huge part of my life for 16yrs.

Me: I love you too and I wish you happiness and I really hope you find what you're looking for. I need this time/space just as much as you and I will not be in an open relationship with you, nor will I be your plan B. I do not think we should co-mingle our lives and confuse the kids. I'm not sure if I've made this crystal clear in the past but... While you are out seeing other people trying to find "Mr- Right" I will NOT BE AN OPTION FOR YOU! I'm going to focus on moving on and working on me. If things change for you and you want to talk about a future then you can let me know. (I'm not 100% sure but I think she almost started to cry here and had to hold it back)

Me: I can't remember exactly what she said that created the opportunity for me to ask but it was an open door and I asked: Well, what went wrong? Why didn't this work? Basically trying to clarify BD issues.

W: It was the golf, always being gone leaving me here with the kids, etc. You would go even when you knew I wasn't happy about you leaving.

Me: I get that. I accept and own all of that. I also admit that I was emtionally un-available at times and understand how you feel like you were walking on egg shells. However I do not believe you were clear with me in August when we talked about exactly where you were and how bad it was (PA started in October). Admittedly I had an 'escape' from the busy house that I took advantage of. No denying that. But my escape was not just to get away from the house. It was because we didn't have (or work on) any relationship. We were just co-parents. You didn't want to do anything with just me. You didn't want to build a relationship that was mutually fulfilling outside of the family relationship. For this to work we needed our relationship first so that we then have the "family" relationship. You can re-write history all you want, but there is still no excuse for cheating - NONE!

W: I get that, that should not have happened and I admit that.

Me: I'm also not being a hypocrite here. I admit my infidelity in the past and I'm in IC working on those issues. Furthermore, I'm working with IC and the timeline of my infidelity and how it probably affected our relationship back then. Maybe you didn't know overtly but I have to admit that the timing of my cheating coincides with some issues back then. And I have to admit it may not be the standard "chicken or egg" question. Even if you didn't know about it, it definitely affected our relationship and I have to own that. Just as you do. ( <-- basically insinuating that her EA's go back farther than August and she needs to accept responsibility for how those relationships affected our relationship.) You are responsible for your happiness! I was not put on this earth (nor was any other guy) to make you happy. That is your job and your choice. You're out "Searching" for happiness when its right there inside you and it just needs to be cultivated.

W: I know

Me: I'm working with IC because I don't want to be that guy anymore. I don't want to every do that to anyone again and I want to resolve my issues (basically nice guy syndrome). <-- didn't say that to her.

Then we softly chatted about the kids, some questions they recently asked and I told her that we need to be consistent as they have recently asked how long you will be away and when you will be back. We cannot confuse them and we can't lead them to believe that we are still a 'family' in that sense.

So the tone had softened (although the above was not yelling or anything, just serious and tense). In the end I said:

Me: Good luck (her full name here) Talk to someone, get some help. I think you're 'chasing' when you shouldn't be.

No hug or anything. No more I love you.

Felt good at the time and felt necessary to say this stuff one more time before she leaves, but it's a double edge sword as I know it's the last conversation like this we will have FOR A VERY LONG TIME if ever at all. The next is NC unless kids related. and I will never know if this conversation helped, hurt or affected her in any way (and I want to know really bad) I have to put her behind me <-- but I also know that everything said above, was for the sake of her as I'm not detached yet.

It felt like I was DB'ing cause I was essentially breaking up with her - letting her know that I'm not an option right now but also pushing her again to talk to a professional. And not really a lot of 'mystery' although I did not insinuate anything other than we are done at this moment. Which although it's probably true anyway from her perspective but hurts like hell right now!

so, how'd I do?


H(me:) 44
W: 45
T: 16yrs
M: 13
S: 9
S: 6
Pre BD (not really recognized by either) 8/18
PA 11/18
PA suspected 12/22/18 (Denied)
PA confirmed 12/28/18
PA #2 (Different) 2/16/19
S: 4/7/2019

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P,

I wasn’t too bad until your last exchange. Her trying to blame it on golf is WW bs. The exchange didn’t help you nor did it hurt you. Most of what she is going through is internal.

I posted this on another thread. Nick Saban Alabama coach made a comment on Sports Center:

When people make decisions based purely on emotions there will no doubtly be consequences.

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Why? Just because I was pushing her to IC (a little to hard)? Or are you referring to the general tone... of "good luck get help..."

Also, a question.. is it common for WW to not take ANY pictures from the house? As I've said before she hasn't stepped away from the kids to much (like some do) she's a little distracted at times, not a present and less patient with them - but that could easily be the general stress of the situation. But as her final things pack up and leave the house I don't think she has taken any family pictures. I understand why she may not want them up right now in her new place - but not taking any, hurts a bit. Also, what am I to do with the pictures? Should I take them down immediately to help me not be triggered by them? I have a lot! She loved photos!

I know to save them in a box for my kids at some point - but wondering what others have done.


H(me:) 44
W: 45
T: 16yrs
M: 13
S: 9
S: 6
Pre BD (not really recognized by either) 8/18
PA 11/18
PA suspected 12/22/18 (Denied)
PA confirmed 12/28/18
PA #2 (Different) 2/16/19
S: 4/7/2019

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I like that quote LH19. Here is a quote, a riddle, and a statement.

The only thing in life that is constant is change.

I would take them down and put them away PJAM. if they are a trigger. Be present, I know its hard. Especially with men, history, good times and the past. But this is who are spouses are today and this is who we are today and this is where we currently are today. Although being present does an emotionally solve everything it definitely helps.

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IHCLACS,
Noted. They don't feel like a trigger today - they feel like hope. Not wanting to change to much so quickly. Tonight is her first night at the new apartment. But I think you may be right. It might just help start the detachment process.

Although I' am worried about how it will make the house feel for the kids. Trying to make the transition smooth. Any additional advice here? Slowly take them down for them or just pull the band-aid off?


H(me:) 44
W: 45
T: 16yrs
M: 13
S: 9
S: 6
Pre BD (not really recognized by either) 8/18
PA 11/18
PA suspected 12/22/18 (Denied)
PA confirmed 12/28/18
PA #2 (Different) 2/16/19
S: 4/7/2019

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Yeah both. I think I told you before that you do not want her in IC right now. IC with just validate her feelings and push her towards what she feels right now will make her happy which is a separation.

I would slowly take the pictures down you do not want to come off as passive aggressive.

My ex never stepped away from the kids and as far as I know didn't take any family photos. Come to think of it I'm not sure if but I think she may have took the wedding photos.

The time and space will definitely help you detach. Just remember in the beginning she is going to really enjoy her freedom.

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LH19 is right. IC will do exactly that. Just confirm and validate her feelings. Most IC are not pro marriage, not equipped to be pro marriage, just pro validation, pro happy, pro self, and pro do whatever feels good. Start with one picture at a time. Leave up the family ones and take down the couple ones one at a time.

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Probably the toughest day/night of my life yesterday. She finally moved out, the closet was empty, her side of the bathroom was empty. We had one final 'family' outing for a neighbors birthday that we all did together. The drive home was somber and silent (sir-real) for me. Collected her key and garage door opening hugged her good bye in the garage told her good luck and walked back inside without turning around.

The real tough part... the kids finally broke down for the first time last night. Asking all the questions and stating how they didn't like that mommy had to leave. I guess it was good they were with me, as it allowed me to focus on them and not her/me/emotions. But it was VERY HARD.

I'm sure I know the answer to this question but just in case... So, I do not say anything to her about what the kids said/asked and how they broke down - right? I'm assuming it won't change anything at all and it will just look like manipulation from my side.

Anyway - got to get my first day started in this new chapter..


H(me:) 44
W: 45
T: 16yrs
M: 13
S: 9
S: 6
Pre BD (not really recognized by either) 8/18
PA 11/18
PA suspected 12/22/18 (Denied)
PA confirmed 12/28/18
PA #2 (Different) 2/16/19
S: 4/7/2019

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P,

I think you should tell her because these I are the kind of things you need to discuss. Just know that it won’t change anything.

You will get through this and it does get better.

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Man this stuff is F'ing tough... really can't prepare yourself for this day at all. I knew I would have a tough time for a while but didn't fully understand what that actually feels like. The pure rejection of the situation really sets in once they are out.


H(me:) 44
W: 45
T: 16yrs
M: 13
S: 9
S: 6
Pre BD (not really recognized by either) 8/18
PA 11/18
PA suspected 12/22/18 (Denied)
PA confirmed 12/28/18
PA #2 (Different) 2/16/19
S: 4/7/2019

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Hi P_Jam.

I read your conversation and all I can say is, it happened. Try not to second-guess yourself. You said what you felt you needed to say. Whether it helped the sitch or not is like chasing the wind. This, aLL of this, is a process. You will get it right sometimes and get it wrong. I think it's important to remember that you are doing your best with a terrible situation.

My H moved out Feb. 1. It hurts. It's hard, but I promise you will have good days, too. I don't know that it's a sanctioned DB practice, but what I do when I'm sad is focus on the good. For instance, when I'm driving home, if S17 is home, I focus on that. How I get to hang out with the coolest S on the planet (seriously, he really is). When S17 will not be home (he's with H tonight). I treat myself to whatever I want for dinner. Tonight it's watermelon. I focus on the fact that I can put my PJ's on early, eat whatever the heck I want and do whatever the heck I want. I choose each day to find the good. Most days, it REALLY helps. There are still hard days, but it has gotten better. And the waves don't hit me so hard and they don't feel so big.

Hang in there, take care of yourself, and do things for you right now. There is some really amazing advice to be had here. but again, if you blow it, (and we all do sometimes) forgive yourself and move forward.
All the best to you.


ME47 XH44, S28 S24 S19

8/17-BD
IHS: 1/17-2/19
D FILED (ME): 7/19
D FINAL: 10/20
M23 T25
OW CONFIRMED: 01/21

Do not let your hearts be troubled and do not be afraid.
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Thanks Hope! That's really nice and good advice! And i used it today without thinking.. I have my 2 sons and to stay busy we went shopping and bought them some new shoes. That really helped my day!


H(me:) 44
W: 45
T: 16yrs
M: 13
S: 9
S: 6
Pre BD (not really recognized by either) 8/18
PA 11/18
PA suspected 12/22/18 (Denied)
PA confirmed 12/28/18
PA #2 (Different) 2/16/19
S: 4/7/2019

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Question - Quick! I need to respond.

So W and I had some good exchanges through text yesterday (all about the kids) she is taking them out of town for a night and I'm working from home so I told her I would keep them longer this morning while she went to the dentist, etc.

Also discussed how we could do S5's birthday here at the house and have her family over. So all in all decent amount of communication but all about the kids.

Then later that night she texts me with an issue with her cable/DVR not recording and asked if I had seen the issue before. It was about the kids bedtime that this came in, so I just ignored it. Felt this was something she should just solve on her own.

But then this morning she texts: "Hi, So are you purposely no responding to my text?"

Obviously yes, but what is the right response that sends the correct message without starting an unnecessary fight?


H(me:) 44
W: 45
T: 16yrs
M: 13
S: 9
S: 6
Pre BD (not really recognized by either) 8/18
PA 11/18
PA suspected 12/22/18 (Denied)
PA confirmed 12/28/18
PA #2 (Different) 2/16/19
S: 4/7/2019

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P,

These are tough calls.

I personally would have answered her when she texted.

Answer, don't answer it doesn't change anything.

Having said that you are perfectly in the right to communicate to her that she fired you as her BF and that she should not contact you for things that do not involve finances or the kids.

The problem is it can come off as being petty and pouty and you are trying to punish her. If that is how she viewed your behavior in the past it is just more of the same.

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Hmm I guess kind of what I thought...

However, it is important to understand that from an electronics standpoint I have been her go to person. I also took the step of moving her work computer and setting it up at her new place for her on the last day she moved out. While there I fixed the Xbox and Nintendo switch for the kids as well. (don't mind doing the kids stuff). But yes, I hate that I'm still "that guy" while OM's get the rest of her. Yes, it is also a little bit of punishment - but more about letting her know I've been "fired". Although I have used it in the past.

Just responded with: "I noticed it well after you sent it, figured you would have just resolved on your own. Check just now and my DVR is working fine".

Should cover all bases I guess


H(me:) 44
W: 45
T: 16yrs
M: 13
S: 9
S: 6
Pre BD (not really recognized by either) 8/18
PA 11/18
PA suspected 12/22/18 (Denied)
PA confirmed 12/28/18
PA #2 (Different) 2/16/19
S: 4/7/2019

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I agree with LH, go ahead and answer because if you don't it will come off as petty to her. You said you shared "some good exchanges through text" so you don't want to suddenly go quiet because then it looks intentional.

As a general rule of thumb, you should reply to some texts right away, others an hour or two later, and others (if it's nothing important) not at all. The idea is to look like you are a busy person that's not always immediately available. Now if she knows you are just sitting at home then there's no point, if you don't reply it just looks petty. The idea is to make her think "hmmm I wonder what he's up to" not "I know he's just sitting there ignoring my messages, what a tool."


Me: 60 w/ S18, D24, D27

M: 21 years; BD: 06-14-12; S: 09-10-12; D final: 03-17-14; XW:57
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I get it and I have no problem with you making clear that your “not that guy anymore”.

I think you’ll find down the road that you won’t care anymore and just answer her on your time.

Remember this is a marathon and right now you are about a mile into the race.

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Yep I get it.. I think it all worked out. I think I was able to convey the message that I'm not always available but still friendly. Thanks to both of your comments. It could have screwed this one up.... Cause I was thinking about texting back "I'm not that guy for you anymore" - but I think this early in the S (move out) would have been received as petty and punishment.

The fact that she had to go all night, then ask me if I did it on purpose means that she was thinking about it anyway. Not that makes a difference or should matter to me - but at this point it does. Small crisis averted and back to figuring out how to do do all of this. Next 2 days will be my first all alone (as she as the kids). Good warm up, cause I get them for the weekend but then after that we are on normal schedule where I will be going on 5 day stretches without them every other week.


H(me:) 44
W: 45
T: 16yrs
M: 13
S: 9
S: 6
Pre BD (not really recognized by either) 8/18
PA 11/18
PA suspected 12/22/18 (Denied)
PA confirmed 12/28/18
PA #2 (Different) 2/16/19
S: 4/7/2019

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PJ,

My guess is you are going to play more golf then you ever have in your entire life this year. Lol

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Originally Posted by P_Jam

Then later that night she texts me with an issue with her cable/DVR not recording and asked if I had seen the issue before. It was about the kids bedtime that this came in, so I just ignored it. Felt this was something she should just solve on her own.

But then this morning she texts: "Hi, So are you purposely no responding to my text?"

Obviously yes, but what is the right response that sends the correct message without starting an unnecessary fight?



My XW likes to text me late at night. This is what I do. I don't respond to her texts after the kids bedtimes. If I do find it worth responding to, I do so in the morning. Night-time texts and calls are for emergencies only. If she can't figure it out through your actions you may need to tell her your boundary.


H(37) W(35)
D8, D5, S3
T20, M13
BD 8/31/18
EA Discovered 9/13/18
Mediation 10/3/18
W files for D 10/12/18
W moves out 11/10/18
EA confirmed 12/25/18
D Final 1/10/19
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Yes, there will be ALOT of Golf LH!

Twofeet - good suggestion. I'm not yet at a point where I care about the time. Only the subject matter. I'm still so early in this sitch that admittedly I"m still doing a lot of DB'ing based on getting a 'response' out of her in some way and/or helping to create the feeling of loss of the H and family structure. Which means I have to be very careful not to punish.

Based on all the experience of the board here i'm realizing I'm probably still in denial about how far my W is in regards to being wayward and GGW. I know she is in an affair fog, but I also know that her 'deepest' connections are EA's with people that are mostly unavailable to her in regards to a real relationship. Only time will tell and I'm very focused on trying to move out of denial by GAL and focusing on me. She's only been out of the house 3 nights and it's been really rough to accept the fact that she really is 'gone' from a physical standpoint. I did not expect it to hit me that hard. It was a bit of reality and now every time I see or talk to her I'm still reading too much into it and keeping myself in denial. Everytime I see her I'm just in shock - I think: Really? This is really done? you must be crazy! but I keep my mouth shut.

emotionally I'm a wreck and don't want to believe it - and although I'm sure there is an 'under current' she can feel that shows I'm not detached yet - I believe I'm doing a very good job of acting as if in regards to my actions. So I'll probably be checking in here often to make sure I'm not making more mistakes. I know the last nights failure to text did not change ANYTHING overall - but it does feel like good 'feedback' in regards to the DB'ing strategy.


H(me:) 44
W: 45
T: 16yrs
M: 13
S: 9
S: 6
Pre BD (not really recognized by either) 8/18
PA 11/18
PA suspected 12/22/18 (Denied)
PA confirmed 12/28/18
PA #2 (Different) 2/16/19
S: 4/7/2019

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PJ,

I’m 99% detached and a couple weeks ago after not seeing my kids for 4 days I went off on a rant in my house talking to myself saying “really this life is better for us? We can’t sit down and figure this out? Next day I got my kids back and was back to normal. Sometimes not having the family structure gets to me.

I have a date with a beautiful woman on Saturday so onward and upward.

Think of 2019 as a growing period for you. This takes time and there are no short cuts.

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I know you are letting me know because I need it. But that just scares the heck out of me.

Also, I really want to believe those same feelings will hit her at some point as well <-- probably feeding my denial but it is so hard for me to accept how different you say she is. I know her actions prove some of it - but I feel like it's right there under the surface. I just cant make it worse or go deeper into hiding.


H(me:) 44
W: 45
T: 16yrs
M: 13
S: 9
S: 6
Pre BD (not really recognized by either) 8/18
PA 11/18
PA suspected 12/22/18 (Denied)
PA confirmed 12/28/18
PA #2 (Different) 2/16/19
S: 4/7/2019

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Those feelings will undoubtably hit her but it will be a year or two down the road. You have to remember that she most likely has a 2-3 year head start on you for grieving the marriage. The quickest these turnaround is 6 months and that extremely rare. As WW as your GF is she is going to have to hit rock bottom first.

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Yep, you could be right. However, I'm not yet convinced she has had that long to grieve the marriage. There is definitely some resentment there (some true some not). I'm inclined to believe there is more limmerence here then resentment... so hopefully fantasy land crashes sooner than later.

But I get your point. Sometimes I can make myself feel better by remember how fast a year can actually go by. Especially if there is SOME signs of recovery and/or me just slowly detaching where no signs of recovery is easier to deal with.

I know that even if she tried to make a u-turn tomorrow that would not work - but I would feel better (cause it would feel like control).


H(me:) 44
W: 45
T: 16yrs
M: 13
S: 9
S: 6
Pre BD (not really recognized by either) 8/18
PA 11/18
PA suspected 12/22/18 (Denied)
PA confirmed 12/28/18
PA #2 (Different) 2/16/19
S: 4/7/2019

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PJ,

Lol I am always amazed how everyone thinks their sitch is different. There was a dude on here who studied limerance to know end and was 100% convinced that once it ended his WW would come back. He just checked in recently and at the year 2 mark the affair is still going on.

There are no shortcuts through the process.

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LH19. The part about you saying " really this life is better for us?" Really hits home, and I haven't even begun to be physically separated. What's bewilders me and pi$$es me off to no end about this, and although I'm probably generalizing by making the statement, is that promotion and freedom and Independence for the WAS, seems and appears more attractive then finding solutions to the marital issues in the first place. Im not saying remain co dependant either... But the self empowerment movement has an agenda.

Although self-empowerment is useful for both men and women alike and has its place, I still can't help but believe and feel that it sells a bunch of lies to the people who have given up hope by walking away with its quotes, messages, media, etc. There are more divorce articles on going from surviving to thriving, then articles on working together and finding solutions. All I hear and see is " promote the self promote the self promote the self.... self.... self...self" and most women gobble it up on shows like Oprah, and think, well if they can do it... So can I. They buy a ton of self improvement products and books that leave one vital piece out... How to actually improve relationships, communications, etc. I don't see many shows or books or people are articles promoting sacrifice patience understanding communication resolve and willingness and commitment to marriage anymore.

A lot of men and women, more so women read these articles and fantasize about how super spectacular fabulously awesome their new life post divorce is going to be through positivity and encouragement, intuition and other things. Some I'm sure are genuinely happy in the pursuit of their goals desires and dreams outside of marriage once leaving it, but no one's covering the harsh realities of splitting up the families, because it probably doesn't sell. This is my biggest sticking point in all this. I think the media and Satan has sold the masses a bunch of lies, and sadly they never realize it until years later when it's too late. Im so glad MWD is pro marriage pro relationship pro skill building.

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IH,

There is no doubt about it. My ex was obsessed with the show The Bachelorette and I am sure played into her fantasy.

The thing is the fantasy rarely lives up to reality. You just have to trust the process and let her go.

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Yeah LH19. Mine had a literal obsession with Chris Soules from The Bachelor. Would watch half naked "magic mike" videos every night at 9pm to 10 pm.It became even more obsessive after BD. She would google articles looking for opportunities to date him, would check his status 6 times daily, started looking at property, arbnb's and rentals around his family's business and farm to potentially live there as a single mom after we seperate. All this although not healthy, understandable. When I found out she made contact via instagram an email to inquire about renting family's cabin, thats when I confronted her. I guess you can call this an EA technically since contact was attempted to be made.

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Originally Posted by IHCLACS
Yeah LH19. Mine had a literal obsession with Chris Soules from The Bachelor. Would watch half naked "magic mike" videos every night at 9pm to 10 pm.It became even more obsessive after BD. She would google articles looking for opportunities to date him, would check his status 6 times daily, started looking at property, arbnb's and rentals around his family's business and farm to potentially live there as a single mom after we seperate. All this although not healthy, understandable. When I found out she made contact via instagram an email to inquire about renting family's cabin, thats when I confronted her. I guess you can call this an EA technically since contact was attempted to be made.


Man that is just a visit to crazy town there! And that is what we call an IA (imaginary affair) because it exists completely in her head. She had zero contact with the "OM" and in fact he doesn't even know (or probably care) that she exists. IA's are perfect for a WAS because they can literally make the affair match whatever fantasy they want. EA's and PA's tend to eventually lead to disappointment but you can never be disappointed by an IA, it's limited only by your imagination.


Me: 60 w/ S18, D24, D27

M: 21 years; BD: 06-14-12; S: 09-10-12; D final: 03-17-14; XW:57
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Yeah AS trip to crazy town is right. It even surprised me, as level headed, well presented, and emotionally in control patient person my W "appears" to be. Just when you think you know somebody... I had a celebrity stalker GF 20 years ago who cheated and left me for another guy and married him. So believe me if I saw that kind of behavior in a relationship early on, I would have avoided that person all,together.


But then again. I'm not surprised at W's behavior because she has gotten into the routine of "winding down" and shutting off reality for years after work, and watching all these garbage reality shows, because she deals with constant stress of special needs kids.

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Well I'm only on day 4 of physical separation (and it's hard) but I've chosen this week to just face it head on. Keeping busy around the house by myself, taking down pictures, cleaning, making the place "my own". Weird when you feel tons of anxiety as well as emptiness at the same time. Spent a couple of hours yesterday just walking in circles trying to "do something" but couldn't focus enough to actually do anything. A little better today, just feel the empty depression.

I get my kids back tomorrow for 5 days and then next week I'll make sure I'm staying busy outside of the house (GAL).

Reading everything on this board I realize that logically there is no quick fix but as early as I am in this I still have those hope feelings in the back of my head that I'm right (and my sitch is a little different) - but I get it, everyone is like this. Also, even if I was right it doesn't change my approach/goals/strategy to work on detachment as well as work on myself. Over time the rest should fall right into place (even if it's JUST detachment).

Moving forward...

IHCLACS... Sorry to hear about your sitch, that seems a bit complicated to deal with and accepted (IA). Seems there really is no boundaries to "fantasy land".


H(me:) 44
W: 45
T: 16yrs
M: 13
S: 9
S: 6
Pre BD (not really recognized by either) 8/18
PA 11/18
PA suspected 12/22/18 (Denied)
PA confirmed 12/28/18
PA #2 (Different) 2/16/19
S: 4/7/2019

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P_Jam I hope you eventualy "settle in" to the emptiness, im sure its really hard for you, and hope you make peace with it and your thoughts. Im not physically separated yet, so I'm not there yet. Still in IHS until we we sell house. But I'm sure its going to be a liberating and yet acaet as he'll when I do experience it. No complication to IA.

But it did initially trigger feelings and insecurities from past GF that I wasn't good enough, or I kept making the same mistakes. I was walking around knowing for 2 months, and it was eating me alive until I confronted W about it. It was more like she figured out I was somehow spying on her, from some of the subjects I was bringing up, that she had already brought up before.

Ironicly that GF from 20 years ago, I messaged 1 year ago, making W aware of my intentions. I was having dreams of her and other exes. W was ok with me reaching out. We were always ok with that sort of thing, as long as no boundaries were crossed. That i just wanted to find out how her life turned out with the guy she left me for. She married him, had two kids, apologized for the way she treated me, turned into a devoted Christian. We briefly talked on FB messenger and got caught up on ours and our families lives. Also ironically I told the old GF I just had a son, was happily married _little did I know my BD was coming 8 months later.)

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P,

If you don’t already consider starting to run. It’s great for clearing the mind. Exercising the mind, body and soul is a must right now. One day at a time my friend. It will get easier.

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Yep.. was back in the gym this morning. Ran 2.5 miles, sit-ups and push-ups. I get my kids back today for 5 days. Mom is in town for a couple of days. Should be a good weekend.

Last night was easier.. felt more anger than anything. There are definitely days/times where I can truly feel that I don't want her back. The level of disrespect sometimes seems impossible to piece back together.


H(me:) 44
W: 45
T: 16yrs
M: 13
S: 9
S: 6
Pre BD (not really recognized by either) 8/18
PA 11/18
PA suspected 12/22/18 (Denied)
PA confirmed 12/28/18
PA #2 (Different) 2/16/19
S: 4/7/2019

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Be strong there PJ. Detach, use your time. The marathon is just starting.

Enjoy the kids, relax.

Keep DB, keep posting.


WW H(me): 53
W: 48
T: 27 M: 22
S: 18
Piecing since 03/2016
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Just a suggestion about the pictures, consider putting at least one picture of the family in the children's bedrooms. They are having to adapt to a lot of changes, and it might be upsetting to see all the pictures removed at one time.


It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
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Thanks Sandi! I did not touch ANY pictures in their rooms. Only in the downstairs common areas. They each have pictures of their mom in there (and I think at least one family) Furthermore, I did not touch the 'family' wall in the upstairs outside their bedrooms. Where there is more family picks. I just removed all from the downstairs family/living rooms (and replaced with pictures of the kids). There are no 'holes' they may not even notice.


H(me:) 44
W: 45
T: 16yrs
M: 13
S: 9
S: 6
Pre BD (not really recognized by either) 8/18
PA 11/18
PA suspected 12/22/18 (Denied)
PA confirmed 12/28/18
PA #2 (Different) 2/16/19
S: 4/7/2019

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Hello all,
Question:
Just got of the phone with WW. It is her weekends with the kids and her work schedule changed. She now has to work on Saturday. The kids have football early Saturday morning. She suggested I get there early and help her parents get them to the correct field etc. As her parents will go get them at her place, take them to football, then take them until she is off work at the end of day on Saturday. I told her I did have plans to go out on Friday night, but it might just be easier for me to take them Friday night get them to football and then your parents can take them home after... she was okay with it but was a little reluctant (I'm pretty sure it is only because she would still like them Friday night). They have only been with her 2 nights since she moved out. But she understood my point and was more than willing to let me have them. So my question(s): I do have plans on Friday night (GAL) but I can easily change them. I'm happy to do so to spend more time with my kids. My question is: Should I ask WW if she wants to go out to dinner (all of us) Friday night as a bit of a 'trade off" since she wont' have them? See I'm a bit confused in my sitch as to where more of the focus should be. Should I still be focused on not doing ANYTHING as a family since it's so early? Or is it okay in rare occasions to offer something like this as a way also remind her of what she is giving up?

Now... please don't say - "do what you want, as I should not be making decisions based on her reaction". This I understand, but I'm not there yet. So from a more 'basic' perspective - should I offer dinner with her or not?

Also, my S5 has an MRI on Thursday so we will be spending time together then anyway at the hospital as he goes under anesthesia.. This too will be comfortable as I know I will run out of small talk in the multiple hours we'll be there.

Help!

I've been doing really good over the last week focusing on me, the kids, projects around the house. Even refused to return one of her calls yesterday (cause she didn't leave a VM). She texted today letting me know she called and needs to talk to me. I just said "no problem will call you in an hour" and then we had the above conversation. I'm really doing my best to let her go, remind myself I can't control her - but we seem to see A LOT of each other right now and I want to handle the sitch as efficiently as possible.


H(me:) 44
W: 45
T: 16yrs
M: 13
S: 9
S: 6
Pre BD (not really recognized by either) 8/18
PA 11/18
PA suspected 12/22/18 (Denied)
PA confirmed 12/28/18
PA #2 (Different) 2/16/19
S: 4/7/2019

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You can have the kids if you want. But you can’t have W for dinner. Family days are over, she decided that. You need to be strong there PJ. She needs to feel some loss.

Stick to DB basics. Be strong!


WW H(me): 53
W: 48
T: 27 M: 22
S: 18
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Had a really good couple of days. I finally feel like I'm making some progress in regards to detachment. Clearly I still have a long ways to go, but right now progress feels good.

Some golf on Wednesday then came home and had an epiphany... "I can do anything I want!". cleaned the house from top to bottom (probably cause WW coming the next day, but I'm also a very tidy person) Turned the music up loud and stayed up late continuing to organize and clean the house and make it 'mine'. Felt really good!

Went to MRI with WW a couple of uncomfortable silences but not much. There were zero relationship talks - she did ask me what I did with the pictures - (since there isn't a single one on the lower level of the house with her in it -kids didn't even notice - but she did). I just said: "I put them away". My WW is very clean too, so she had to notice the house. It was spotless and re-organized, pantry, kids rooms/toys, etc. It felt good to be able to show that "I got this" with or without her. After MRI S9 was still in school which is very close to MY house. S5 from MRI fell back asleep on ride home. So I suggested we pick up lunch to go, get him into his bed (at my house) and she can then wait around for S9 to get out of school before taking them back to apartment. Had a quick bite with her in the dining room, talked kids, then I excused myself to go do some work in the office. I Worked for 2hrs without any contact with her. She napped on the couch until S5 woke up. He wanted to play ball so I played catch in the back yard (while she watched through the window). S9 came home from school and as they prepared to leave both kids wanted to stay at my house (this makes me feel good) but I know the kids transition is important/critical so I did my part in telling them how exciting the apartment is and how much fun they will have spending time with their mom. As much as it can set me back to have her around, it does feel good to be able to continue to show my 180's in person and be the best father possible right in front of her.

Funny thing though... I did agree to take the kids tonight since they have football early Saturday and she has to work Saturday. She says... "Oh, I forgot it's my turn to bring snacks for the football team. I guess I'll put that together tomorrow and bring them over to you after work tomorrw and then I can spend some time with the kids since I won't be able to have them Friday night". I said, um.. ok, sure. Not sure how much time she is planning but very interesting how she just invited herself over to have a little more time with the kids. I think I'm going to take the kids to a bingo night at their school. Just something to do and if she joins us - fine. But better to have an event for the kids as well as not let her just hang at the house and cake eat.

Overall, just really happy that I'm finding some excitement in this time and space for myself. I have really used the time well to work through some of the emotions as well as figure out what I want (at least as far as the house is concerned). Have an event with a group of friends for Saturday night. GAL is going well. I'm almost too busy.. since she has moved out she has only had the kids 4 nights and so far 2 of those I saw my kids during the day (MRI, and then tonight they are at my house). So I have yet to go anywhere near 5 days without the kids. As this time/space grows I'm feeling confident I will learn to enjoy it and use it wisely. With all the things I have placed on my to-do list now, I'm looking forward to actually getting 5 days in a row to myself.


H(me:) 44
W: 45
T: 16yrs
M: 13
S: 9
S: 6
Pre BD (not really recognized by either) 8/18
PA 11/18
PA suspected 12/22/18 (Denied)
PA confirmed 12/28/18
PA #2 (Different) 2/16/19
S: 4/7/2019

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That all sounds great P! Nicely done all around, just keep all of that up!


Me: 60 w/ S18, D24, D27

M: 21 years; BD: 06-14-12; S: 09-10-12; D final: 03-17-14; XW:57
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I am beginning to dislike the cake eat phrase . I jammed plenty of cake down my Mrs throat and she loved it and made me the obvious choice against anyone else . Do what works , being a great father is attractive, being positive, handling things well , being happy , improving yourself and enjoying the ride . What’s not to like?

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Try Hard,
Can you please elaborate on your above statement? Are you saying that you DID allow you WW to cake eat? And it helped? I'm very curious as I have had recent conversation with WW that I will detail below in another post. But I really want to know your perspective on comments above.


H(me:) 44
W: 45
T: 16yrs
M: 13
S: 9
S: 6
Pre BD (not really recognized by either) 8/18
PA 11/18
PA suspected 12/22/18 (Denied)
PA confirmed 12/28/18
PA #2 (Different) 2/16/19
S: 4/7/2019

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Been away from the board for a few days. Update on sitch...

Background:
1. IC says that I need to be careful as coming off to WW as if I'm "completely done". He's concerned that she will take this as more of the same (since BD issue is = neglect) and provide her more reason to just move on. Also how can you rebuild attraction if always distant.

2. WW has always been friendly through the entire process face to face, with kids and $ settlement, as well as parenting plan. Still a lying cheater behind my back, but she has not portrayed a lot of the rude/mean characteristics of many other WW ive read about. <-- I know some will say this doesn't matter. But for me it's 'concerning' because I either let her have a little 'cake' or I come off as the rude/mean one.

3. WW is girls gone wild. No specific OM that she is 'in-love' with. Multiple EA and couple of PA

Sitch...
The night I took the kids for her (on her night) to get them to football the next day (because she had to work). S9 tells me that WW would not let him call me the night before. I questioned him multiple times to try and make sure what I was hearing was correct. Based on multiple answers it seemed that it might have been the case (just as he stated it). I was flaming made and texted WW: "S9 says that you would not let him call me last night, we agreed this would NEVER happen. Pathetic".

[b][/b] Now, in hindsight I realize I could have handled this much better. For one, even though she is a lying cheater she has never put the kids in the middle of our situation like that (so I probably owed her more respect/benefit). come to find out it was not exactly as S9 explained it (again, I probably should have known this) She took it HARD! No other text that night or next day. Finally on Sunday she texts me telling me that she is no longer going to allow S5 family birthday part at my house on Thursday. She says I can pick him up from School and have some birthday time with him but she will then pick him up and take him to GMA & GPA's house for family birthday.

So I ask if she can talk. We get on the phone and I ask her what is going on? She says it's a combination of things, but most importantly the texts and I don't feel comfortable around you or the house. I pushed... what are talking about feeling comfortable??? She proceeds to tell me that she doesn't like how I took down every picture of her, nor did she like how I kept MB door closed when she was over the day of the MRI. She feels I'm being mean and manipulative and then the rude texts... I just don't want to see you. She is also upset because I was 'distant' when she came to family bingo night. "You really didn't even talk to me".

At this point I"m feeling like I've clearly done something wrong (although I'm not afraid to make her mad) this was probably not a good situation to do so and most importantly I want save S5 Birthday party at my house.

So I explain that the pictures were necessary as I could not keep looking at her face (they were triggers for me). I explained that I replaced every picture I could to make sure the kids did not notice any holes (which they didn't). I explained that I'm not trying to manipulate just do what is best for me. AS for master bedroom door. I did do that to see if she would notice (not really sure why or what impact it would have) - just felt that if she is in MY house... that is now my personal space - so I'm keeping it more private. <-- this is not what I told her though. Just stated that I'm closing more doors upstairs and downstairs when they are not in use as it's more efficient for heating/cooling.

In my explanation of pictures and Bingo night I explain to her how she has hurt me deeply and even though I do like to see her and have her around form SOME events, it is still very difficult as I know you are sleeping with other people! I explain that it's too early for me to act 'normal' around her. I will work on it, but for now it will be a little uncomfortable while we go through this. This then sparks more relationship talk. She reminds me I'm not the only victim and that she is hurt and scared too. She tells me: "I'm not anyone else's" <-- her way of saying I"m NOT serious with anyone right now (but also still leaving it open to sleep around). I remind her of my boundaries and that I do not consider us "working" on this relationship through separation as we originally agreed - if she is still sleeping with other people. I will not be in an open relationship and will not compete with the "honeymoon phase & fantasy" of the other relationships.

Anyway, that is the meat of it. It lasted 1.5hrs. I got the birthday back at my house. I also felt like we had a decent talk as I was able to remind her that I'm hurt, ok but still hurt. Re-establish my boundaries that I would like to 'work' on this but not while OP are still around.

so now I'm torn... I know that overall this conversation really doesn't mean much. But as crazy as some of the stuff she is doing, I do feel like she is looking for reasons to save this R. I also understand the need for her to feel some loss as I can't just be plan B.

She has only been out for 2 weeks. So i know there is a lot of time - but where is the balance between DB and IC suggestions, as well as re-establishing attraction?

on a side note: I went out on Saturday met a woman who is also going through D. Not sure timing only overheard others talking about her sitch... but got her number and have been texting. Looking to possibly ask for dinner this week. <-- this really helped me over the weekend. I know I probably need to avoid sexual relationship - but I will not be limiting my options. Only making sure I"m completely honest with her about where I am emotionally.


Last edited by P_Jam; 04/23/19 07:37 PM.

H(me:) 44
W: 45
T: 16yrs
M: 13
S: 9
S: 6
Pre BD (not really recognized by either) 8/18
PA 11/18
PA suspected 12/22/18 (Denied)
PA confirmed 12/28/18
PA #2 (Different) 2/16/19
S: 4/7/2019

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PJ,

Wow lots of mistakes right out of the gate. She’s manipulating you. You don’t work on a relationship by moving out and sleeping with OM. So your IC is encouraging you to pursue a woman who is rejecting you? Your IC is watching to many rom com movies. That BS doesn’t work in real life.

You missed opportunities to validate and called her pathetic. Pretty sure that’s not going to attract her back.

This is going to take a really long time. You can’t pretend to move on. Trust me they know.

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LH,
Well in her defense she actually hasn't said "we are working on it". That is what we originally agreed to, then she has another PA and i told her to leave - witch changed the 'working on it".

And I did validate every issue/feeling she had. All of them, as they are all real. None of them were about OM. I sincerely apologized about the "pathetic' text (and meant it) because it was wrong.

IC does not think I should "pursue". Only that I have a right to know where her head is at, sometime in the near future 4-6 weeks. He is not convinced it should take more than 6 months to get a better feel in which way she is going. It will take a very long time to repair, but shouldn't take that long to decide if it's possible to repair. He also would not councel me in anyway to be 'waiting' for any longer than 3-6 months.

Although, i get your point about pretending to move on... It' doesn't happen over night. So I guess what I'm asking.. is what I do in the mean time. I guess just try to be happier when I am around her. Not pursuing but not really distant either...


H(me:) 44
W: 45
T: 16yrs
M: 13
S: 9
S: 6
Pre BD (not really recognized by either) 8/18
PA 11/18
PA suspected 12/22/18 (Denied)
PA confirmed 12/28/18
PA #2 (Different) 2/16/19
S: 4/7/2019

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Originally Posted by P_Jam
I don't feel comfortable around you or the house. I pushed... what are talking about feeling comfortable???

The above is not validation.

I guess it could be slightly confusing because you are not married but you have a a legal custody arrangement and support is in place correct?

My ex filed for D. We have a custody arrangement and I pay support. I don't have a right to know where my exs head is at ever. We are divorced. Unless I am missing something in her mind you are done. Obviously if she changes her mind a recon could be in the cards in the future.

In fours years on the board I do not think I have seen one situation where a WW moved out settled custody and finances and had a change of heart in 3-6 months. Someone correct me if I am wrong.

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Originally Posted by P_Jam
Been away from the board for a few days. Update on sitch...

Background:
1. IC says that I need to be careful as coming off to WW as if I'm "completely done". He's concerned that she will take this as more of the same (since BD issue is = neglect) and provide her more reason to just move on. Also how can you rebuild attraction if always distant.


Becareful. Most IC are classically trained NOT DB trained. Detached <> distant. Common LBS mistake. Present is the number one rule of loving detachment. Pleased. Upbeat. Cordial and kind. YOU JUST DO NOT REACT EMOTIONALLY TO WHAT SHE SAYS OR DOES. Negative or positive. This is why you LISTEN and VALIDATE.

If you are distant then you are not detached. You are unengaged. Not the same.

Originally Posted by P_Jam

2. WW has always been friendly through the entire process face to face, with kids and $ settlement, as well as parenting plan. Still a lying cheater behind my back, but she has not portrayed a lot of the rude/mean characteristics of many other WW ive read about. <-- I know some will say this doesn't matter. But for me it's 'concerning' because I either let her have a little 'cake' or I come off as the rude/mean one.


This is reacting emotionally to what she says and does. IE NOT detached. Listen. Validate. It isn't complex. It is hard to get good at it but the plan is simple.

Originally Posted by P_Jam

3. WW is girls gone wild. No specific OM that she is 'in-love' with. Multiple EA and couple of PA


Detached. IE this rolls off your back like water off a duck. You continue to key off of her and her actions and words. Stop. Focus on you. I will read below with a keen eye toward how your GAL is going. If it isn't I will issue a 2x4!

Originally Posted by P_Jam

Sitch...
The night I took the kids for her (on her night) to get them to football the next day (because she had to work). S9 tells me that WW would not let him call me the night before. I questioned him multiple times to try and make sure what I was hearing was correct. Based on multiple answers it seemed that it might have been the case (just as he stated it). I was flaming made and texted WW: "S9 says that you would not let him call me last night, we agreed this would NEVER happen. Pathetic".



Not detachment. YOU CANNOT CONTROL HER. Even if she bad mouths you to the kids, you cannot control her. The more you try the more she will resist. Let me ask you.......how would a man only a fool would leave deal with this situation?

Originally Posted by P_Jam

[b][/b] Now, in hindsight I realize I could have handled this much better. For one, even though she is a lying cheater she has never put the kids in the middle of our situation like that (so I probably owed her more respect/benefit). come to find out it was not exactly as S9 explained it (again, I probably should have known this) She took it HARD! No other text that night or next day. Finally on Sunday she texts me telling me that she is no longer going to allow S5 family birthday part at my house on Thursday. She says I can pick him up from School and have some birthday time with him but she will then pick him up and take him to GMA & GPA's house for family birthday.


"Okay, sounds good!" Again, you can't control this.

Originally Posted by P_Jam

So I ask if she can talk. We get on the phone and I ask her what is going on? She says it's a combination of things, but most importantly the texts and I don't feel comfortable around you or the house. I pushed... what are talking about feeling comfortable??? She proceeds to tell me that she doesn't like how I took down every picture of her, nor did she like how I kept MB door closed when she was over the day of the MRI. She feels I'm being mean and manipulative and then the rude texts... I just don't want to see you. She is also upset because I was 'distant' when she came to family bingo night. "You really didn't even talk to me".


Text was rude. Learn and move on. But what you have to understand is this, no matter what you do it will be wrong to her. If you pursue and pressure, she will complain. If you back off and give her space, she will say you are being mean and ignoring her. With WWs YOU CANNOT WIN. This is why you do.....NOTHING. Be kind, polite, nice, accommodating. But focus on YOU. Your GAL. Your 180s. Loving detachment. Be so busy with all of that, and then you won't have time to react badly to her. (Remember, RESPOND to her do NOT react.)

Originally Posted by P_Jam

At this point I"m feeling like I've clearly done something wrong (although I'm not afraid to make her mad) this was probably not a good situation to do so and most importantly I want save S5 Birthday party at my house.

So I explain that the pictures were necessary as I could not keep looking at her face (they were triggers for me). I explained that I replaced every picture I could to make sure the kids did not notice any holes (which they didn't). I explained that I'm not trying to manipulate just do what is best for me. AS for master bedroom door. I did do that to see if she would notice (not really sure why or what impact it would have) - just felt that if she is in MY house... that is now my personal space - so I'm keeping it more private. <-- this is not what I told her though. Just stated that I'm closing more doors upstairs and downstairs when they are not in use as it's more efficient for heating/cooling.

In my explanation of pictures and Bingo night I explain to her how she has hurt me deeply and even though I do like to see her and have her around form SOME events, it is still very difficult as I know you are sleeping with other people! I explain that it's too early for me to act 'normal' around her. I will work on it, but for now it will be a little uncomfortable while we go through this. This then sparks more relationship talk. She reminds me I'm not the only victim and that she is hurt and scared too. She tells me: "I'm not anyone else's" <-- her way of saying I"m NOT serious with anyone right now (but also still leaving it open to sleep around). I remind her of my boundaries and that I do not consider us "working" on this relationship through separation as we originally agreed - if she is still sleeping with other people. I will not be in an open relationship and will not compete with the "honeymoon phase & fantasy" of the other relationships.


First, asking for the call was a mistake. Second, YOU TALKED WAY TOO MUCH! You do not owe her an explanation for the pictures...SHE FIRED YOU AS HER H. Listen. Validate.

This was a setback my friend, no other way to put it. You should be avoiding these talks.....like the plague. Who cares if she complains.

Originally Posted by P_Jam

Anyway, that is the meat of it. It lasted 1.5hrs. I got the birthday back at my house. I also felt like we had a decent talk as I was able to remind her that I'm hurt, ok but still hurt. Re-establish my boundaries that I would like to 'work' on this but not while OP are still around.

You should have done birthday without her, let her celebrate the way she wanted to. The talk was NOT decent. It got you no where. You re-established a boundary? You mean she didn't already know that? She didn't know you were still hurt? This talk netted nothing, except a birthday party that now includes her again and should not.

Originally Posted by P_Jam

so now I'm torn... I know that overall this conversation really doesn't mean much. But as crazy as some of the stuff she is doing, I do feel like she is looking for reasons to save this R. I also understand the need for her to feel some loss as I can't just be plan B.

She has only been out for 2 weeks. So i know there is a lot of time - but where is the balance between DB and IC suggestions, as well as re-establishing attraction?


Listen to the IC and you will most likely be D'd. DB and you may still be D'd but the chances for R are better. We've all seen this 100 times if we've seen it once. DB is no guarantee, but what the IC is suggesting is ALMOST a guarantee of the opposite.

Originally Posted by P_Jam

on a side note: I went out on Saturday met a woman who is also going through D. Not sure timing only overheard others talking about her sitch... but got her number and have been texting. Looking to possibly ask for dinner this week. <-- this really helped me over the weekend. I know I probably need to avoid sexual relationship - but I will not be limiting my options. Only making sure I"m completely honest with her about where I am emotionally.


So do you want to save your MR, or date? You can't do both my friend. This is a violation of sandi's rules.....stay away from the the bar scene. No good can come of it. You are going down the wrong road. Very few LBSs have jealoused their WAS back. You are going to end up D'd AND hurting this new woman. BAD IDEA.

Sorry for the 2x4s, but you are headed the wrong direction and need a course correction. And your GAL looks almost non-existent except to put yourself in bad situations. Like Saturday night. Go out with the guys. Forget women for now.


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Also LH is giving you solid feedback. Dude knows his stuff. And you are bucking against that feedback. Why?


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Originally Posted by Steve85
Also LH is giving you solid feedback. Dude knows his stuff. And you are bucking against that feedback. Why?

Well first I'm NOT bucking against the feedback. This sh*t is NOT EASY!

I understand that the birthday party probably didn't NEED to be at my house with her, but it was already set up previously we both agreed (I liked it for the kids, not her). My extended family is not in the area hers is, so my family birthday would have just been ME. Therefore the fact that she TOOK it away from me because of a text that I shouldn't have sent - I wanted to save this situation. If it wasn't for the text and we were just talking/planning the birthday party - I get it. not with her, but I did not want to feel responsible for this AND I did not want it to further deteriorate our relationship as it relates to the kids. That text (which was horrible) was going to cause this entire sitch to go in a bad direction as it relates to the kids and how/when we are together with them. It felt necessary to correct that.

I don't mind the 2x4's - I do appreciate them. That being said; I do have a hard time believing that everything is SOOOO black and white. You'll say I'm wrong, and that my situation is not unique - I would agree it's NOT unique, but I'm also not 100% convinced there is ONLY 1 WAY to skin this cat. I have/will make mistakes. Per you, this may have been a pretty bad one. I still think it was 'decent'. I'm LEARNING. I just spent 3hrs with her today at the hospital going over the MRI results for S5 (tumor is back) - but it is benign and they do not want to do another surgery yet. Wait a year and see what happens. So could have been better, but definitely could have been a lot worse. In today's interactions I was able to be 'happy', without pursuing. I was not distant either. I left there with more anxiety than I have had in 2-3 weeks, because it was so hard. It's difficult to explain how Love, Anger, disappointment, disrespect can all be so overwhelming at the same time. I also wanted to grab and hug her based on the news about S5 <-- I MISS THAT! And, I hate how I'm being rejected for such a low, selfish, irresponsible way of life. I felt toooo much empathy and felt the need to 'talk' - I DIDN'T but this is what happens when I'm not 'distant' when she is around. but I am working on it and I will get better!

I have a hard time believing that she ONLY wants me as plan b - because she doesn't really have a plan A. Now, I'm going to take your advice and I'm going walk this tight rope between no pursuing and possibly initiating a conversation in 2-3 months. The good news for all of you... I have 2-3 months to change my mind. So I will still be looking for a lot of support here on this board. I'm not bucking your feedback and I mean no disrespect - but some of us may just have to be 'us' in some ways. I've learned to trust my gut a lot, and although you all have taught me that my gut is not right all the time during this situation - I'm not convinced its ALWAYS wrong either. I 100% get that I can't talk my way back into this relationship - but I also believe that there are ways to rebuild attraction other than JUST dropping the rope <-- although I do understand how important this piece is.

Re dating:
I get it. My IC counselor agrees with you as well. However, you ask: Do I want to R or do I want to date? The truth is.. am I really expected to know the answer to this question right now? With what my WW has just done to me and our R - I do have to question what my real motives are for wanting her back right now. Is it because I just don't want to lose her? Or is it because I'm scared? Or is it because I REALLY WANT HER?? I DON'T KNOW RIGHT NOW!! I may be making this more complicated but it feels good to make connections with other females that are going through similar situations. It does not have to be sexual, and I admit that I'm taking a risk in regards to my will power if opportunity were to present itself.. But this can also be part of dropping the rope. Frankly, I have just as much to figure out as my WW right now. Furthermore, I fully understand not getting someone else involved for their sake. I have 2 female friends now that are going through similar situations. We have openly discussed how we are not ready for a relationship. And everything to this point has been platonic, and everyone knows that none of us are ready. I'm just smart enough (or dumb enough) to know that with this sort of connection it is possible for something to happen.


H(me:) 44
W: 45
T: 16yrs
M: 13
S: 9
S: 6
Pre BD (not really recognized by either) 8/18
PA 11/18
PA suspected 12/22/18 (Denied)
PA confirmed 12/28/18
PA #2 (Different) 2/16/19
S: 4/7/2019

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P_Jam,

I tend to agree with you that not every situation is so black and white, and you know your world better than any of us do. I do think the framework of keeping some of the "rules" of DB in the front of your mind does help though, especially during this early learning phase. Later on when you're much more calm and truly more detached you can look at whether being so "rigid" is best for you. But right now you're very close to the situation.

Emotions are high. We get that. So taking a step back and saying less will likely be a good way forward.

Remember that if you don't know what to do - doing nothing (and SAYING nothing) is a valid option. It doesn't feel natural at first. If I might offer one suggestion of something to work on, this would be it. Say less.

I think the space will continue to help you. I hope it does.

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Thanks Yail. I too agree. I'm really not trying to argue that my talk was really that good. Only that the circumstances that caused it to happen felt unavoidable to me. It also feels good when I feel like I'm making SOME connection with her. There really was no arguing. Just both of us stating our side and generally both of us validated each other (me more than her of course).. I know.. she's just lying manipulating and this is exactly why I'm getting the 2x4's. I'll just say - I don't think the talk was good enough to be excited for another one. Just that it only set me back personally a little. As it draws me back into her - but I don't really believe it hurt my sitch at all right now. I think it helped as is saved the opportunity for us to continue to be able to be in the same room together as the kids not only for this birthday but moving forward - as she was about to completely pull all of that away. I will not give her this power again by attacking her as I did.


H(me:) 44
W: 45
T: 16yrs
M: 13
S: 9
S: 6
Pre BD (not really recognized by either) 8/18
PA 11/18
PA suspected 12/22/18 (Denied)
PA confirmed 12/28/18
PA #2 (Different) 2/16/19
S: 4/7/2019

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P_Jam, yes every sitch has it's own idiosyncrasies. Yes there is no one size fits all solution to every sitch. I agree with that. However, what I am trying to get you to see is that your previous post had way too much reaction and way too much impulse for the overall good of your sitch, and for you. Everything from the text, to the panic of saving the party, to the asking the woman for her phone number. Those are red flags that you may need to really step back and ask yourself honestly "am I in control of myself, or am I flitting around with every breath of the breeze?"

P_Jam, I get it. I was where you were. I was looking at everything from cheating myself to make her know how it feels, to turning the blame around on her for things, to withholding money and support, to kicking her out on her butt, to.....you get the point. I was willing to do what EVER work. No matter what it was.

But then I found this place, and people like sandi, AS, and LH all were huge helps to talk me down from ledges. My only advice for the go forward is to please come here before you "react". Try to live by the motto "I am going to give a thought out response, not react". Kind of like you did at the hospital. Well done on that by the way! And while it was hard (and I get it, I was there too), and while you had stress afterward because this stuff isn't easy, it will get easier as you continue to find your temperance and control your urges.

One last point on the dating. One of the big reasons I advise LBSs to really consider it carefully, and proceed with caution, is because in 10-15 years form now, when your sons are 20-24 years old and start asking questions, you want to be able to look into their eyes and say: a) you were above the fray (you didn't respond to your W in kind), and b) you did everything in your power to save thing with their mom, and c) that you handled yourself with grace and dignity. I've seen so many cases where a spouse cheated, and even left their marriage for the AP. But then when the LBS moved on with someone else while they were still technically married, the WAS spun it that the LBS "cheated too". Again, impulsively this seems right (meeting other women) since your W has fired you as her H. However, there are right ways and wrong ways to go about it, and for the sake of your kids you should error on the side of caution in trying to do everything the right way.

Oh on the "bucking", I said that because when LH gave you some objective insight, you dug in and went into defensive mode. It is okay to be wrong and make mistakes in this. As you said, this stuff IS hard. I bucked the advice here myself lots of times justifying my impulsive reactions. Read my threads and you will see I was FAR FAR FAR from the perfect DBer. But one thing I did was really consider the support, guidance, and feedback I received here and I highly credit that support, guidance and feedback for saving my marriage. But more importantly for saving myself!


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PJ,

First off I am really sorry to hear about your son and I know this is a really difficult time for you.

Originally Posted by P_Jam
This sh*t is NOT EASY!

That is the under statement of the year my friend lol!

Originally Posted by P_Jam
I understand that the birthday party probably didn't NEED to be at my house with her, but it was already set up previously we both agreed (I liked it for the kids, not her).

I think it is good to do birthday parties for the kids together. It shows the kids that you can still be together in the same room and no be uncomfortable. That will make them more comfortable with the arrangement.

Originally Posted by P_Jam
In today's interactions I was able to be 'happy', without pursuing. I was not distant either.

Perfect! Keep it up!

Originally Posted by P_Jam
I felt toooo much empathy and felt the need to 'talk' - I DIDN'T but this is what happens when I'm not 'distant' when she is around.

You need to definitely fight that need to talk. If she wants to talk you will know.
Originally Posted by P_Jam
I have a hard time believing that she ONLY wants me as plan b - because she doesn't really have a plan A.

Make no mistake about it, you are plan B right now. Just because she doesn't have a solid plan A right now doesn't matter. In fact it is worse. The fantasy of finding the perfect prince that is going to wash all her problems and unhappiness away is actually worse. Real men have flaws, fantasy men do not.
Originally Posted by P_Jam
Now, I'm going to take your advice and I'm going walk this tight rope between no pursuing and possibly initiating a conversation in 2-3 months.

If you initiate a conversation in 2-3 months I can pretty much guarantee you will not like how it goes and you will reset your clock back to zero.
Originally Posted by P_Jam
The good news for all of you... I have 2-3 months to change my mind. So I will still be looking for a lot of support here on this board. I'm not bucking your feedback and I mean no disrespect - but some of us may just have to be 'us' in some ways.

PJ, if I took offense to people on here not following my advice I would have quit giving it years ago lol.
Originally Posted by P_Jam
I've learned to trust my gut a lot, and although you all have taught me that my gut is not right all the time during this situation - I'm not convinced its ALWAYS wrong either.

Everything about this is counter-intuitive that is why the advice is always opposite of what your gut tells you.
Originally Posted by P_Jam
I 100% get that I can't talk my way back into this relationship - but I also believe that there are ways to rebuild attraction other than JUST dropping the rope <-- although I do understand how important this piece is.
There are ways to build attraction. Be friendly, always look your best around her, be funny. be confident, look her in the eye when speaking to her, validate her feelings. But be scarce. Scarcity creates value. Where I think you are wrong is there is a difference between attraction and connection. You can be attractive to her but you can't reconnect with her while she is sleeping with other men. If your therapist tells you you can, then it is time to find a new therapist.

Originally Posted by P_Jam
With what my WW has just done to me and our R - I do have to question what my real motives are for wanting her back right now. Is it because I just don't want to lose her? Or is it because I'm scared? Or is it because I REALLY WANT HER?? I DON'T KNOW RIGHT NOW!!

Its probably a combination of all of these things. Objection breeds obsession and as humans we want what we can't have. Sounds like you spent a lot of time avoiding her out playing golf. There must have been a reason why? Of course you are scared. I am sure thoughts of Can I handle the kids alone? Can I handle the house alone? Will I find someone better then my ex? These are a normal feelings.

We will help you through this and we expect mistakes. Just try to minimize them as much as possible.





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Originally Posted by LH19
PJ,

Originally Posted by P_Jam
I understand that the birthday party probably didn't NEED to be at my house with her, but it was already set up previously we both agreed (I liked it for the kids, not her).

I think it is good to do birthday parties for the kids together. It shows the kids that you can still be together in the same room and no be uncomfortable. That will make them more comfortable with the arrangement.



Agree 100%. However, P_Jam my concern was over your approach to this. Anytime you have an urge to push for something like the joint birthday party, ask yourself "is this pressure and/or pursuit? Is this a hill worth dying on? Or should I proceed according to her wishes and not make an issue of it this time?"

Of course this is all a moot point, because if you hadn't made the mistake of the text you wouldn't have had to try to save the party.


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She has only been out for 2 weeks. So i know there is a lot of time - but where is the balance between DB and IC suggestions, as well as re-establishing attraction?


Some of us have tried to answer that question, but you don't want to listen.......or you want to do it your way. I think you don't have a clue as to how to attract her. You see it as pursuing, and that is far from attracting. You need to be a man who is not focused on a woman behaving like GGW and who is window shopping for men. You shouldn't be having text conversations with her, except child related issues. You shouldn't share family events/holidays. You are separated, so live as separated. You are still trying to talk her back into the relationship.

What is not "balanced" is when she came to your house and you went to the bedroom and closed the door. It could appear as if you are hiding out, and that is not what a man does in his own house. If living under the same roof and separated, then that might be seen differently, but when you are physically separated and she drops by the house, don't run to another room and close the door. You don't have to entertain her, but neither should you go to another room and close the door. Yes, LBH's seem to have a hard time balancing. Can't you just focus on not pursuing? Can't you be polite when she comes to your house, as if she was just someone in the neighborhood that dropped by? Can you not be emotionally detached without being rude? Do you know how that picture looks? If not, then think of her as if she was an elderly lady who came by the house. How would you treat her?

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IC says that I need to be careful as coming off to WW as if I'm "completely done". He's concerned that she will take this as more of the same (since BD issue is = neglect) and provide her more reason to just move on. Also how can you rebuild attraction if always distant.


She did not separate to work on the MR. You cannot "rebuild" attraction while she continues to disrespect you. This is what you don't seem to get in your head. A wife will not feel sexual attraction/desire for a H she disrespects. That's how she was designed. So, you can knock yourself out trying to chase after her to make her see what a catch you are, but as long as she doesn't respect you as a man, she's not going to have loving feelings for you. That is the nature in this WW dynamic and the only way to change is to follow the advice we given you since day one.

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WW has always been friendly through the entire process face to face, with kids and $ settlement, as well as parenting plan. Still a lying cheater behind my back, but she has not portrayed a lot of the rude/mean characteristics of many other WW ive read about. <-- I know some will say this doesn't matter. But for me it's 'concerning' because I either let her have a little 'cake' or I come off as the rude/mean one.


Not sure what she or you consider rude/mean, but you don't have to show that side. Even if you need to decline or refuse something she wants, you can do it in a polite manner. Maybe you just need to get your focus off cake for a while, if it's causing you to act weird.

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At this point I"m feeling like I've clearly done something wrong.................................

So I explain that the pictures were necessary as I could not keep looking at her face (they were triggers for me). I explained that I replaced every picture I could to make sure the kids did not notice any holes (which they didn't). I explained that I'm not trying to manipulate just do what is best for me.


Talk, talk, talk, talk. Explain, explain, explain. She fired you as her H, so why are you still playing the role? I'll bet that's what you did throughout the M. Instead of asking you, she would get upset, try to punish you until you decided you must have done something wrong, Then, you would explain your actions, so she wouldn't be upset. But things are different now. She isn't living as your W, and has broken up the home. She moved out of the house and you have a right to do whatever you want inside your house. You are so scared she will think you are moving on, that you've got to explain every little thing you do. As a WW, she actually needs to be concerned that you are moving on without her. If she feels she is truly losing you in her life, it has a way of distracting her from her initial purpose of wanting out of the M. In other words, it has a way of making her reconsider. If he plays his cards right, it can lead to her having some respect for him. Why? B/c nobody knows better than a WW that a man should not tolerate her sh't. So, when he stops the chase and moves on.......it sparks a little respect.

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In my explanation of pictures and Bingo night I explain to her how she has hurt me deeply and even though I do like to see her and have her around form SOME events, it is still very difficult as I know you are sleeping with other people! I explain that it's too early for me to act 'normal' around her.


What part of no relationship talk do you not understand? You are shooting yourself in the foot every time you do this. When you are together, and the W is not wayward, then you can explain things, if needed. But you are not together now. She is wayward, and we've tried to tell you how you can't handle the sitch as if she was a "normal"
loving wife. As a wayward, she will try to manipulate and punish you, etc. Maybe she did that when she lived with you, but it's time to cut those puppet strings (whether she tried to control, or you did). You say she's not as bad as some other WW's, but maybe that's b/c she has mostly gotten what she wants. As long as a WW gets what she wants, she will be "friendly". If you don't play along by her rules......... just sit back and watch her in action.

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I also felt like we had a decent talk as I was able to remind her that I'm hurt, ok but still hurt. Re-establish my boundaries that I would like to 'work' on this but not while OP are still around.


Did she smack her forehead and say, "Oh my gosh, I forgot! Thank you for reminding me".

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She has only been out for 2 weeks. So i know there is a lot of time - but where is the balance between DB and IC suggestions, as well as re-establishing attraction?


IDK what all your IC is saying, but if you have to ask how to balance what the IC is saying and what DB says, then maybe you need to decide to let one of them go. What I mean is that if it's causing more confusion than it's helping, let something go. I hope you won't let DB go, but that's your choice. We can try to help you, but at the end of the day it boils down to when you get fed up and have had enough of her waywardness and moving on with your life.


It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
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LH, Steve, Sandi,
Please know I do appreciate you taking the time to continue to counsel me even when it seems I'm not listening. I promise I do not mean to ignore you. As this is so counter-intuitive and I'm a very intuitive person (always have been) it just makes me look thick. I'm not.

I don't disagree with ANYTHING above accept maybe the timeline - and admittedly this may only be denial.

In defense of IC, he agrees with 99% of everything I have shared in regards to advice from this board. Accept the timeline. His only disagreement is that it may be possible to break the fog sooner through openness and vulnerability. That being said; I've already informed him that I trust the board more in regards to current feedback and I don't believe that any talk can happen until she wants to come back to me (at least a little). To clarify, we all agree that there has to be some loss and recognition (her coming to me) from her side before any openness and vulnerability. DB says that this can't happen until full/complete u-turn by WW. So, there are a lot of things that can happen either way in the next 3 months. That is why I'm holding off to test the waters between DB and IC. And I'm sure we will talk about it multiple times between now and then. I have more important things to deal with in IC (NGS).

The talk: I do agree. I would not have had the talk and really did not initiate it (or at least didn't mean to). The call was originally ONLY to discuss birthday (which I explained above). She drew me in with the pictures, etc. Having that talk saved the birthday and at least the next 15-30 days of interaction with her in regards to the kids. <-- so I'm just saying it seemed worth it for this. The fact that the call 'felt good' to me in regards to re-setting boundries and reminding her how much she hurt me - I realize was wrong and really not good overall. No matter how I felt at the time, it didn't help. Point taken.

In hindsight its very possible that she went this route (not only because of the text) but because I had been doing a decent job of DB'ing the last . Obviously the pictures affected her, same with the door closed (she's wondering). She may or may not have said anything if didn't send that horrible text. She did not lead on that ANY of this bothered her (or was even noticed) when we were spending time together that day. She just really hit me where it hurts... with having the kids in the middle. And I gave her that power by sending the text.

I also just know that 'letting go' is going to be very hard for me in general. Maybe harder than others. In crisis I can be a bit controlling (duh). That being said; I"m having a very hard time figuring out how/if I was controlling in our relationship. It was not one of her mentions and even though I know I try to control things I really cant seem to isolate where I was this controlling in the R (other than NGS) covert contracts, pouting, unavailable - but generally I do not believe I controlled her (like I want to now). Anyway... working on it all!

Thanks again!


H(me:) 44
W: 45
T: 16yrs
M: 13
S: 9
S: 6
Pre BD (not really recognized by either) 8/18
PA 11/18
PA suspected 12/22/18 (Denied)
PA confirmed 12/28/18
PA #2 (Different) 2/16/19
S: 4/7/2019

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PJ,

You mentioned restating your boundaries. What are these boundaries?

Also, what kind of loss is she going to feel within 3 months?

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P_Jam, at least you acknowledge all of this. That is huge. You can't change what you don't acknowledge. So while I am still not sure you are saying you want to change some of this, or any of it, you at least acknowledge where you have shortcomings and struggles.

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In hindsight its very possible that she went this route (not only because of the text) but because I had been doing a decent job of DB'ing the last . Obviously the pictures affected her, same with the door closed (she's wondering). She may or may not have said anything if didn't send that horrible text. She did not lead on that ANY of this bothered her (or was even noticed) when we were spending time together that day. She just really hit me where it hurts... with having the kids in the middle. And I gave her that power by sending the text.


This reminded me of the exchange my WW and I had early in our sitch. She had this grand plan a foundation on her getting a job, getting an apartment, and us getting D'd. But on top of that she built a fantasy of me keeping the house. She wanted none of my money or support. My D would be living at the house with me primarily. With our D spending the night at her place sometimes on the weekend. My WW would still have a key to come take care of the dogs and making dinner a few nights a week at the house for us as a family.

At one point I took her pictures down and closed the MBR door (not literally, but figuratively based on what you did). I did this by telling her that A) we would be selling the house and splitting the equity down the middle. B) I would be moving in with a friend of mine. C) All of our assets including retirement accounts, money in the back, etc would be split down the middle. We would have 50/50 custody. I would pay child support based on income disparity. She balked at all of this.

I looked her right in the eye and said "This is fair. We've been married for almost 19 years, you are entitled to half of everything." She said: "But I don't want you to sell the house." I responded that it wasn't fair for her to go off and start a new life and that I was expected not to do the same.

It was long after that that she returned to the MR and we moved into piecing. Did that play a part in her decision? I think it did. I think the fact that life would change dramatically for all three of us was a dose of reality. That I was talking about moving on with my life post D and starting over was a dose of reality (IE no cake eating for her). That she would still be a mother 50% of the time and couldn't pick and choose when she wanted to play W and mother was a dose of reality. That she would get half of all our assets (we are very blessed) was something she felt she didn't deserve because she was "destroying lives" (her words, not mine).

So the fact that you removed the pictures and started closing the door is fine. Just try to be better are responding to her about those decisions: "Its not fair for you to go off and start a new life and expect me not to do the same." Say it straight-faced, with no emotion. Simply matter of fact.


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Boundaries:
I will not be in an open relationship. I will not consider us 'working' on this while she is with OP. As we know she will want to cake eat <-- I know this intuitively as well. She'll want the stability of H/family as well as fantasy of OP. So it's about reminding her that I'm not an option right now. <-- and I know I have to show it through actions. Granted it was a short time, but before this interaction I was doing better at this.

Hopefully, there are multiple losses. But PA starts to go sideways? Kids/family impact? Realizes that we are equally responsible (or close) to the failure of relationship? could be any of these. The fact is: I DONT KNOW. I only hope and if it turns out that there is really no return on her side in that time, then I won't have the conversation. And hopefully I'm doing better at detachment and I don't feel as strongly about the need to have it.


H(me:) 44
W: 45
T: 16yrs
M: 13
S: 9
S: 6
Pre BD (not really recognized by either) 8/18
PA 11/18
PA suspected 12/22/18 (Denied)
PA confirmed 12/28/18
PA #2 (Different) 2/16/19
S: 4/7/2019

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Well PJ this is where I think a lot of your confusion and trouble is coming into play and I am going to be brutally honest with you. Number one we encourage you never state a boundary more then once. Number two there has to be consequences if the boundary is broken and number three the boundary has to be realistic. You are not an option right now. She is not working on the relationship. You asked her to move out to get a reaction out of her and it backed fired. Now she can tell everyone you asked her to move out. So you can allow her not to cake eat but it is not a boundary.

If PA goes south she will find another om. Realizing she is half of the blame is most likely years away. After living with someone for 13 years who admits he is a control freak, pouts when he doesn’t get his own way and made her feel like she was walking around on eggshells and spent his free time golfing with his buddies is going to miss that after 3 months? When now she has her place to herself half the time and can do whatever she wants and answers to nobody.
In the beginning she will enjoy her time away from the kids.

Oh yeah and btw she knows she can have you back with the snap of her fingers because you feel the need to vomit your feelings all over her because you need to talk. Do you think she gives a flying fuch about your feelings right now?

Sorry buddy that was harsh but I needed to paint the picture for you. I am trying to help.

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Sandi2: Did she smack her forehead and say, "Oh my gosh, I forgot! Thank you for reminding me".

Almost choked on my lunch laughing. Clearly Sandi understands their mindset and arrogance as WW and woman that is rebellious and has no respect for a LBH man, and understands how STRONG HIGHLY ATTRACTIVE MEN SHOULD ACT. Loved the sarcasm. Sounds like one of the alpha guys on constructiom job. Nice to see both perspectives, one of a woman who's been there, and one who clearly understands men.

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Continued from my previous post...................

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I understand that the birthday party probably didn't NEED to be at my house with her, but it was already set up previously we both agreed (I liked it for the kids, not her). My extended family is not in the area hers is, so my family birthday would have just been ME.


I know this has to be very difficult with your family members living long distance. My suggestion about birthday celebrations is to change how you view it. In other words, don't call it a "family birthday party". Instead, have a birthday with his friends, or go to a special place and plan great fun with the two of you. I have experienced loss in my life, and whenever you lose someone close to you.....you have to plan how to celebrate without them. The first year is hard, I won't lie to you. Finding new ways of celebrating does help, I think.

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I did not want it to further deteriorate our relationship as it relates to the kids. That text (which was horrible) was going to cause this entire sitch to go in a bad direction as it relates to the kids and how/when we are together with them. It felt necessary to correct that.


I think I understand what you mean. Here's the thing, you are at her mercy with this mindset. Trying to be "together" with the kids when you are separated is not doing them a favor, IMHO. It only gets their hopes up that mom & dad are getting back together. Every time they see that mom & dad aren't getting back together, it causes fresh pain. So, why do that to your kids? She wanted to separate, so stop trying to feed a relationship you don't have. Next holiday or event, you need to have plans to celebrate without her. It doesn't prevent her from doing something with the kids on her time with them. She has to see the reality of living separately from her H. I don't mean that in a punitive way. I'm just saying that a WW has to see the result of her wayward decisions.

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I just spent 3hrs with her today at the hospital going over the MRI results for S5 (tumor is back) - but it is benign and they do not want to do another surgery yet.


My heart goes out to all of you. It's never easy when you have a sick child. As for things not being black or white, let me try to help you clear up any confusion about this part. When it comes to your child health, both of you need to be united. But you have to keep your wits about it and not see it as meaning you've untied the MR. Also, understand that this three hour period was not a celebration. I'm sure she was glad you were there with her. Not every WW would feel the same, but in this case, I think your W was probably glad. When it comes to serious illnesses, tragedies, hospital emergencies, etc., I believe personal feelings and the sitch has to come in second place. In some WW situations, the H can't give an inch, but as long as both parents can act civilized. Every situation is a little different. There was actually a case where I did not give the same advice. The WW had left the H for another man. They had no children and she manipulated and played him like you couldn't believe. She would temp check, he'd fall for it, and then she would hurt him all over again. When one of his parents died, she tried to take full advantage of that situation, and I advised him not to invite her to be with his family. So, if I sound as if I'm talking out of both sides of my mouth.....I'm really addressing the individual case.

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In today's interactions I was able to be 'happy', without pursuing. I was not distant either. I left there with more anxiety than I have had in 2-3 weeks, because it was so hard. It's difficult to explain how Love, Anger, disappointment, disrespect can all be so overwhelming at the same time. I also wanted to grab and hug her based on the news about S5 <-- I MISS THAT! And, I hate how I'm being rejected for such a low, selfish, irresponsible way of life. I felt toooo much empathy and felt the need to 'talk' - I DIDN'T but this is what happens when I'm not 'distant' when she is around. but I am working on it and I will get better!


I get it. I am a talker, too. When I was younger, I wanted to talk about every thing to my H, but it wasn't received by him, b/c he was not wired the same way. I would get my feelings hurt b/c he would not validate or even act as if he was listening. So, I learned to curtail a lot of my talks. Is it hard? Yes! But I adjusted. I still have my moments (lol). I'm just trying to tell you that a lot of your trouble right now is that you are missing the relationship you had, and wanted/needed. Trying to cling to that won't be effective in having a future MR with her. The couples I've seen reconcile after a separation, had a period where they detached as a couple (which means to live separated) and take that time and space from each other. Then later they could heal and work through their issues. I really believe you have to back away from the WW and stop trying to keep some relationship that she's torn asunder.

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I have a hard time believing that she ONLY wants me as plan b - because she doesn't really have a plan A.


Listen, whenever a woman leaves her H b/c she doesn't have the same feelings any longer, he automatically becomes plan B. Whenever she chooses another lifestyle over being his wife........he automatically becomes plan B. How much plainer does she have to paint the picture to show you are not plan A? I'm sorry if my words are harsh, but you need to wake up and accept the fact you are nowhere close to priority in her heart or her life. That means you aren't her plan A. You've got to let go. The first step in getting her back is to let her go and stop making her your plan A.

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I 100% get that I can't talk my way back into this relationship - but I also believe that there are ways to rebuild attraction other than JUST dropping the rope <-- although I do understand how important this piece is.


And yet......you continue to try to have R talks. This is not how you attract a WW! How do you see re-bu;ding attraction with a wayward wife? I don't know what other books you are reading or where you are getting this idea, but I am willing to bet it is not from someone who understands how a wayward operates. I have a library full of those type of books, and they are okay except in cases where the W left b/c of waywardness. I'm concerned that you are the one in fantasy land. Truth is, you still want to pursue her. You've done that since day one. Just b/c that's the way you feel.......doesn't mean that's the way it works.

One more thing and I'll stop. I suggest you post more on a regular basis for a while. There comes a point that most people back off, but I don't think the time has arrived for you just yet. It's just my two cents.


It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
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P_J- count yourself lucky, you are getting gold-plated advice from the heavy hitters. LISTEN TO THEM.

Originally Posted by P_Jam
I will not be in an open relationship.


This is a laughable "boundary" to your W. In her eyes she isn't in an R with you, open or otherwise. So she fully intends to breach this boundary at every opportunity with her GGW behavior. WHAT ARE YOU GOING TO DO ABOUT IT? Because a boundary is worthless without consequences. So you establish a boundary, your W tramples it and you do nothing. How do you think that makes you look to her? She already had no respect for you. Don't make it worse.

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I will not consider us 'working' on this while she is with OP.


YOU work on YOU. You're still trying to work on an M that one of you sees as dead.

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She'll want the stability of H/family as well as fantasy of OP. So it's about reminding her that I'm not an option right now. <-- and I know I have to show it through actions.


Yes, exactly right. I know it's difficult to implement but you've really got to let go of your constant desire to "straighten her out" through words and instead focus on your actions. She doesn't believe your words, and won't believe your actions until she sees them consistently for months and months.

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Hopefully, there are multiple losses. But PA starts to go sideways?


Not on your radar. YOU and your KIDS are your concern. Let her sow her wild oats, you can't control her.

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Realizes that we are equally responsible (or close) to the failure of relationship?


No, probably not for many months or (more likely) a year or even years.

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I only hope and if it turns out that there is really no return on her side in that time, then I won't have the conversation.


The others have said this to you several times, but the ONLY convos you should have with her are kid-related unless and until the day in the distant future she comes to you with repentance and a humble heart asking forgiveness and wanting to work on things. But you have got to do a whole lot of detaching first.


Me: 60 w/ S18, D24, D27

M: 21 years; BD: 06-14-12; S: 09-10-12; D final: 03-17-14; XW:57
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I'm back - Update:
Had S5 (now 6) Birthday party at my house last night. Her parents, brother, cousins, her, myself and 2 sons.

I did just as I did previously at the hospital. Was happy (not distant) engaged her in simple/small talk but focused on the being the host of the party (food, cake,etc). Took a while for the cousins to get there so S9 was sad and disappointed as he wanted to play. So he asked me to play catch in the back yard while we wait, so I did. She again got to see a 180 in real action. I have been so much more present with my kids, I love it and I love for her to see it. My present for my son was his favorite of the night (which made me feel good) W immediately went on amazon and purchased same thing for her house (lol).

Party went well, all happy and comfortable. As everyone left I helped load the bags/presents into her car (it's her night with the kids). Kids were kicking the ball in the street. After helping her I just walked to the sidewalk by myself (while she was still loading) and watched the kids. <-- point, I made no 'special' connection in regards to loading the car or being close to her 1:1. Just being a gentleman and walked away.

She then joined me on the sidewalk where we had small talk. She thanked me for hosting and I said; "my pleasure" glad we could work this out.

She then came to me and grabbed me for a hug. I assumed it was a simple friendly hug and gave her a quick one back and started to pull away. She held on and pulled me in for a long hard hug and whispered "I miss you". I just simply said "Yep, I miss you too" and then ended the hug.

I will see her again on both Saturday and Sunday. Saturday for Son's football games then on Sunday for S6 "friends" birthday part at bouncy house. Sunday will probably be a little odd as all her close friends with kids will be there and it will be the first time I have seen them all since S. I'm sure I will get lots of hugs and "how are you doing". I know that some of them know a bit of the details (PA). I plan to be upbeat confident and say: "I'm good, still surprised this is how she wants to end it, but I refuse to let this define me, so I will be fine".

although I have made some mistakes with the last relationship conversation I still have been very diligent in not texting or calling her (aside from the one call regarding birthday). I let her come to me for ALL communication. She texts me at least twice a day. It is still just about the kids - but I do not initiate anything to her unless it's NECESSARY. I'm getting better. Even with the hug and the "I miss you" I was not as shaken up last night after she left. I know I felt good because she said it, but logically I continued to tell myself "it doesn't matter - you're still plan B" Just need to get through this weekend and we don't have a lot scheduled to be together anymore (other than Saturday morning football). So will continue with NC.

Couple of question for the experts:
1. Next week will be tough on me as well. Our anniversary is 5/5. She will have the kids. Do I do/say ANYTHING on this day?
2. Is me being plan b in her head - overt? Meaning, is she really overtly manipulating me to feel more comfortable while searching for Mr. Right or is possible she is still trying to take this time/space to reflect and figure things out? Is my empathy for her just more NGS? Sooo hard to be happy but also be somewhat distant when she is coming to me. I get it, probably just a temp check - but so hard to balance. Did I respond appropriately?


H(me:) 44
W: 45
T: 16yrs
M: 13
S: 9
S: 6
Pre BD (not really recognized by either) 8/18
PA 11/18
PA suspected 12/22/18 (Denied)
PA confirmed 12/28/18
PA #2 (Different) 2/16/19
S: 4/7/2019

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1. Next week will be tough on me as well. Our anniversary is 5/5. She will have the kids. Do I do/say ANYTHING on this day?


You are going to do whatever falls in line with your nice guy image anyway, so I don't know why I bother to answer. Don't send/give her a card. Don't go out to "celebrate". Don't go out as family. Don't have dinner together. Don't buy her anything. If she initiates a text and says something about it, then respond in a non-mushy way. That's all. This is another opportunity for her to have a tiny glimpse of reality, if you would let it happen.

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2. Is me being plan b in her head - overt?


Absolutely!

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Meaning, is she really overtly manipulating me to feel more comfortable while searching for Mr. Right or is possible she is still trying to take this time/space to reflect and figure things out?


Is she still joining her friends and acting like a GGW, staying out in bars till the wee hours of the morning? She is not trying to take time/space to reflect and figure things out. She knows how to work you, and she's going to continue as long as you allow it........just in case she has no other options left and has to return to you. I'm talking about finances, physical help, or most anything but feeling in love. WW's return home when it suits them, and not before, unless they get their eyes opened and feel remorse.

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Is my empathy for her just more NGS?


Do you really feel empathy for her? This type of sitch is hard for a H to even believe that his W could change this drastically. I mean, you love the girl you M and don't want to see her go. That's understandable. Where your NGS comes into play is like the birthday party, for example. You were the perfect host, the perfect gentleman, etc. None of that behavior was hard for you, b/c you are a nice guy. What would be hard is to tell her there will be no more joint celebrations.......or harder still.....is to just not do it. I'm not telling you to call her up and say it, I'm just using this as an example. Men with NGS believe they can nice the WW back into an intimate MR, and they can't bring themselves to toughen up. They are afraid it will push her further away. BTW, there was nothing wrong in how you conducted yourself at the party. I want you to understand what I'm saying. It was the fact you allowed her to manipulate you into having the party there in the first place. Only, she really didn't have to manipulate, did she? She just let you know that's what she wanted, and you did it. So, if she says she thinks the family should at least go out and eat to acknowledge the anniversary, how will you handle it?

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Sooo hard to be happy but also be somewhat distant when she is coming to me. I get it, probably just a temp check - but so hard to balance.


If you have to say "probably just a temp check", are you really getting it? Remember that she wants to keep you engaged to a point. She has to do keep you attached, in order to secure you as her backup plan. (That's why WW's want to know if the H is seeing anyone, and all about his personal life. She has to keep tabs on him.) She only wants you on her terms, not yours. She doesn't want you around when she is partying with her friends, or out with OM. If she has anything else better to serve her, then she won't go to you. That's the plain truth. She is a wayward W trying to keep one foot in both world. And, you are helping her. As long as you enable her, the wayward behavior could last until she settles down with some other dude. Then what will you do? Cause here's the thing. She can still manipulate you, even if she's with someone else. Whatever she wants you to do, you'll try to please her. Even if you get M to someone else. We've all seen how some XW's can manipulate after her H has D and M again. Some guys never get away from it, b/c they never figured it out.


It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
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PJ,

I pretty much agree with everything Sandi said and make the comment that if she truly missed you after 2 weeks she would have never left. I think you handled everything pretty well.

Time and space buddy time and space.

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Pj,

I wouldn't say anything about the anniversary. I didn't last year and my W got to wonder if I cared or not. And even if your W acknowledges the anniversary or wants to see you on it, it doesn't mean she's done with GGW. That's what happened to me last year and I regretted opening myself to that without dealing with her long term commitment to our marriage. So I think you can say, in a detached way, that you're ok not recognizing the anniversary while her commitment is not there. But I wouldn't go telling her this out of the blue or anything.


H 34
W 29
BD 3/12/18
Divorce Busted Spring 19

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PJam let me put it to you this way. I'm just going to use this as an example and analogy.

If you were my personal friend and business partner, and I lured you into doing business with me as a partner in the beginning for the first 10 years, and we signed a contract, but also had a verbal commitment to one another on a friendly handshake, a good word and faith, that we would continue to do business well into the future for decades. We had trust in one another. We had a lot of good times, a lot of company parties, good clientele, and made a lot of money for everyone. We were happy with the way we conduct ourselves and enjoyed the fruits of our labor. We were friends and business partners.

Then one day one of us discovered that the other partner became an alcoholic and drug addict. They were caught skimming off the profits for themselves, and they were slowly but surely stealing clientele away, and forming their own alternate business for themselves. Furthermore the other partner was using the company resources available to them to purchase whatever they wanted. Eat whatever they wanted, room-and-board wherever they wanted. Fine hotels expensive dinners, etc. But because one party couldn't prove all this in a court of law and terminate the other partner, because the other partner broke their commitments and trust, but they were still legally forced to do business together because of contract.

Do you really think one person is going to be calling the other out to a dinner party anytime soon? Or have a lunch break and a beer or a round of hoops, or a game of racquetball or golf at the country club with them? I hope the answer would be an astounding no and contact would be as very limited and strictly business as possible.

A person walking away from a marriage is no different than the situation above.

You hold out on that person as much as possible doing with only absolutely necessary transactions and limited communication as possible under contract. You want to have nothing to do with them and you keep yourself focused on you, your business, and the people that support you, and help you grow it.

It is only when the person who has had all these flagrant violations, goes to AA meetings or 6 step program, admits they have a problem, completely breaks down in caves, restores All the Monies and clients that they embezzled, and comes to you with a contrite heart, with full humility and sincerity, and the willingness to attempt to be trusted again in time through their actions words and deeds on your terms, after they restore what's rightfully owed to you.

You hold out to the end if there ever is an end? But you keep growing your business moving in your direction no matter what you keep moving forward without them until they demonstrate full-hearted repentance and ask for forgiveness. No half-hearted attempts are allowed.

Now do you understand how to conduct yourself, and what these temp checks really are? And what cake eating really is? Let them go. If they broke their commitments, if their hearts are not in it? Then why should yours be? Your time is valuable, your money is valuable, your assets are valuable, and your integrity and reputation is valuable. Your high clientele is the social proof of that and of quality, because you know what you and your business are worth.

You acknowledging or going to an anniversary dinner with the WW is like the good business partner trying to have dinner with the other bad business partner who was stealing from them, and wants to embezzle, and wants everything to themselves, their way, all the time. And you are the one that is initiating contact to make amends, and saying please forgive me when you have done nothing wrong. You dig?

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I even have to ask and remind myself sometimes? What benefits am I getting from this? No sex, no affection, no ILY's, no intimate fun conversation, no selfless initiatives, no presents, no initiative from them to hang out other than family time, no unified family, no commitment. I clearly see other family members get more personal time and conversation with WAW. So what the hell am I sticking around for? Just like her, I have nothing more than a glorified roommate under contract to fulfill joint obligations, and co-parenting. It's all about her, her dreams, her goals, her desires, her new life, etc.. There is more of an upside to letting them go.

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Sandi, AS, LH19, ovrrnbw, IHCLACS, - THANK YOU!
I know it must be frustrating to feel like you keep saying the same things repeatedly to me. In my defense (a little) we were talking about the same situation with the birthday party etc. Just spread out over a couple of days.

Anyway – You’ll probably do the same thing again…
So had the ‘friends’ birthday party for my S6 (was also previously agreed to do together) something I was not going to change – but I did not request this. It was set long before the family birthday party. I had the kids that weekend (neither of my kids have ever opened their presents at the party in front of people – they don’t like being the center of attention like that). So she asked if she could come back to the house and watch him open presents. I couldn’t say no (well I know I could have, but it would have looked petty as she had every right to see this aspect as well). My neighbor (good friend) stops by and asks if I want to BBQ at my house I say “sure”. HE knows what’s going on so he grabs the tequila and gets it flowing between all 3 of us. He starts to have the equivalent of R talk with her. Trying to figure out her side (no prompting from me). We continue DRINKING and everyone is talking relatively freely. She says she’s notices my changes but also does reference her un-happiness over a long period of time. Blah blah blah.. Really it’s nothing she stayed for the BBQ all had a decent time. She left. I made nothing more of it (with her). BUT, I did recognize something. I was able to actually see her real pain. I could feel how deeply she was hurt. – It hurt me to see and hear. Although I know I have a ‘right’ to be focused on my pain over the current situation. But I did wonder if maybe I haven’t given enough credit her internal pain (focusing more on WW mindset and GGW). No excuse, but even with the 180’s I know what to change and have been working on it but not sure I have actually understood/internalized what she is/was going through due to my issues– her pain, sadness, disappointment was real. And even with NGS (which is conflict avoidance, manipulating, and controlling – not really ‘being nice”) Its very hard to show my 180’s in this way while also dealing with WW mindset. Her biggest issues were my emotional unavailability. My inability to connect with her, my games and absenteeism. She’s noticing I’m present now, with the kids, with her, with my entire new ‘single’ lifestyle. Not to mention that I can speak in detail about what I did and clearly understand what I’m working on. <- Because of WW mindset I really have not discussed this with her just taking action. We touched on it a little after some tequila (I know she noticed) but I still significantly held back. I could have gone into SUPER VALIDATION mode, but didn’t. I realize we don’t have a relationship, but I do also realize that I have done things wrong in the past and those things are what has lost her attraction. But those 180’s don’t match the WW mindset. [censored]! I

FYI – you are all correct. Doing nothing for anniversary. But I’m confident she will text me (at a minimum).


H(me:) 44
W: 45
T: 16yrs
M: 13
S: 9
S: 6
Pre BD (not really recognized by either) 8/18
PA 11/18
PA suspected 12/22/18 (Denied)
PA confirmed 12/28/18
PA #2 (Different) 2/16/19
S: 4/7/2019

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PJ,

I think all of us on here don’t truly realize the pain our WWs were in to leave. I know my ex gave up a lot. She got way lesser of a house, she doesn’t get invites to mutual friends parties, the security of my job and pension, use of my family cottage which she loved. Everyone thinks she’s crazy for leaving that all behind so that just tells me how unhappy she was the last 3-4 years. I had a lot to do with it even though it wasn’t my attention. My needs weren’t being met and her needs weren’t being met and we didn’t have the tools to figure it out together. Both of our parents have crummy relationships so guess what we modeled.

180s are for yourself for future relationships with or without you ex. It’s a tough lesson to learn but most lessons are learned by going through rough times. As time goes by she’ll remember the good times more then the bad times and if the timing is right you may be able to give it another go.

Remember your just ending the first mile of the marathon.

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Originally Posted by LH19
I think all of us on here don’t truly realize the pain our WWs were in to leave. I know my ex gave up a lot. She got way lesser of a house, she doesn’t get invites to mutual friends parties, the security of my job and pension, use of my family cottage which she loved. Everyone thinks she’s crazy for leaving that all behind so that just tells me how unhappy she was the last 3-4 years. I had a lot to do with it even though it wasn’t my attention. My needs weren’t being met and her needs weren’t being met and we didn’t have the tools to figure it out together. Both of our parents have crummy relationships so guess what we modeled.


Wow LH19, very self-aware and very honest to say. It's so much easier to say that our WAW or WW was crazy and manipulative and a cheater and all of the rest when in fact it is likeky much more like you spell it out here. And that takes guts. It also hopefully goes a long way toward preventing it from happening again.

Last edited by Cadet; 05/03/19 11:26 AM. Reason: Start a new thread message

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Me 56
WAW-EXW 55
Met 11/95 / Married 5/00
Bomb 6/20/05 / She Filed on 6/2/06 / Divorced on 10/9/06
4 who'd qualify as GF since D & dated about 25 women since D
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Please start a new thread and link them together.


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The past is gone, the present is a gift and you need to focus on today, allow the future to reveal itself when it is ready.
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H(me:) 44
W: 45
T: 16yrs
M: 13
S: 9
S: 6
Pre BD (not really recognized by either) 8/18
PA 11/18
PA suspected 12/22/18 (Denied)
PA confirmed 12/28/18
PA #2 (Different) 2/16/19
S: 4/7/2019

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