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I hear ya. It's scary, unfamiliar, and lonely im sure once you realize they are going to be gone. On the other hand it'll probably stabilize your emotions and allow you to focus more on yourself which may be liberating.. I haven't hit that phase yet and I probably won't for another 6 months until we sell the house. We had the whole talk last night on her bday none the less, after giving me a hug and a sincere thank you hug for the thoughtful presents (My 180) and about how she is going to be a mess that day we sell, because of all the failed hope, dreams, and memories. W initiated convo. This time I just shut up, listened and validated, and she just kept on talking without me even having to say a thing, or show any emotions. Not a great improvement, but not bad considering we haven't R talked or even talked playfully in months kind of emotionally unavailable and avoidant.

This quote of yours is perfect.

"
It's about being present, being personable, being attractive without pursuing. Something I haven't really been able to feel or do until about 30 minutes ago. So although I have made some good/positive steps as it relates to the overall goal. I need to detach but detach with love. Which also means I need to stop trying to hurt her, by throwing her actions back in her face. I do keep trying to remind myself that she too is scared and worried and hopefully with the right amount of space/time - she will figure it all out. "

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PJ,

You’re slowly learning my friend.

If you really lover her you will give her what she wants while putting your wants and needs aside.

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Originally Posted by LH19
PJ,

I can usually get a pretty good feel early on how things will play out for a poster early on. Some have their b@lls so far down their Ws purse that I know their chances are slim and they don't want to do the work so they will continue to struggle in life. Some jump right into another relationship and most likely will be back here in 5 years. You I believe will be fine once you get her out of the house and you are able to stabilize the feelings you are having right now.

I was happy to see your follow up post to TBS acknowledging that your are BSing yourself that your sitch is different. It is NOT. In fact has a lot of similarities to mine. 

I mentioned Accuray to you and the following is a post from him that IMO every LBS just follow immediately:

Your wife believes you are the reason she is unhappy. As you probably know, the only way she's going to overcome that deeply held belief is for you to open the cage door and completely cut her free. If you engage in a relationship with her again it should only be under the conditions that:

1) She sees you as someone of extremely high value
2) She views a relationship with you as something much better than a life with someone else or a life alone
3) She's willing to work to win you

Without those three things, she's going to walk again down the line, because she really doesn't have the motivation to work with you to change anything, your relationship will keep seeking the same equilibrium it has had because of how your personalities and issues come together.

Given that you have to make things worse before they can possibly get better, separation may not be a bad choice, but I would advise pursuing a separation with the same rules you would have if you were divorced, which is to say that you don't continue to co-mingle your lives (aside from the kids) and you are free to live your own lives without social accountability to the other person.

That way she can really see if that way of life is better or worse for her. Prepare yourself that in the beginning she will view it as better, mainly because she'll find new found freedom and has convinced herself that it’s what she wants. It may take six months or two years for reality to set in, but it certainly will.

My advice would be to lean in to what she wants, agree to separate, and work productively with her on the plan with the presentation that you're on board and plan to enjoy this change also. That's going to make her wonder. You want her to wonder what you're thinking, and from this point forward you shouldn't tell her anything about your frame of mind -- nothing at all.



This is all key LH19, and you are right, we actually have to do the work on ourselves because at this phase, (What we all know already, but failed to implement because our emotions are involved are continually fluctuating due to anger, fear, guilt, attachment. ) Especially with past memories, sentiments, items of significance, etc.)

The WAW is done with the relationship and the marriage. It is solely about attraction at this point. and not romantical love anymore. Hence the  "I love you as a brother, ILYBIMILWUA"

Remember that women look at love very differently than from a man's perspective.
They want the whole package, respect given to them, and of yourself, attraction, compatibility, security physically and financially, sexually fulfilling, intimately and emotionally fulfilling and supportive, independent, personal growth, help, strength, etc. Look up Tony Robbins 7 basic human needs on YouTube on relationships. I'm sure you will gain a ton of insight from watching these videos. If you aren't meeting the 4 out of the seven needs, your relationship is going in the dumper. Women are complex. Men? Give them a little affection, a hot meal, some commonality, laughter, and hot sex frequently, and they will love you for life... Lol..

I was looking at a woman's dating profile the other day and this person's words struck me. Love (at least romantical)is having someone return what your wants are, your needs are, and what you yourself have to offer. (Meaning personality and attractiveness, unless they are a gold digger.) This is exactly why you have to GAL, focus on you, let the W go, and detach. Write down everything the W has said that you need to change and work on it for you and you only. Because it is currently "too little too late"

Even though WAW's do rewrite marital history, and sometimes fail to see their own shortcomings sometimes, or it may take longer for them to realize it's after you're gone that you weren't entirely the problem. Make that list and improve on those things and make them your personal goals for you and only you.

Because most WAW are looking to reinvent themselves, try new things, change lifestyles, living places, exercise routines, etc, empower themselves once they hit this phase. I'm thinking it's probably because they felt like they gave so much of their self away to a marriage that they feel like they're a former shell of themselves. I've heard that from my W as well as other women blogging. So m.en, make yourself more attractive, and improve yourself in every area of your life that you can.

Gone and done is the WAW. She unconditionally loves your children, her family, and possibly a few friends . That is it. It is about attraction the same way you attracted her to you when you first met. You are no longer attractive in her eyes anymore and do not provide value as a man. It's taken me six months to realize this and going back and forth daily between having so many problems in my life (broken car, massive amount of debt, overdue bills and credits, working 15 hour days , incomplete projects around the house for 7 years, financially dependent, co dependancy,  between my emotions and actually attempting to get my own life together. Not having enough time or money to even GAL, therapy, undefined goals. Being constantly emotionally frustrated because of all the external circumstances. Undefined goals. All these things are unattractive and problematic to the WAW. This is not what an alpha male looks like. This is not what is considered attractive. I could dress up every night and go out and smell like roses, go out and have fun, and even go on a few dates if I wanted to. It's not going to attract the WAW back, but it will help. I can do everything right and bend over backwards for her get all the projects done, make her coffee every day, and other niceties. Most of the guys on here including myself keep making the mistake of troubleshooting the relationship over and over and over. Take the list of improvements and make them your goals with or without her.

LH19 is right. You can't nice them back, you can't mean them back, you can't beg them back, you can't guilt them back, you can't convince them back, and you can't trick them back. You are dealing with a creature that makes emotional decisions, along with intuition, that they (follow their heart if it feels right.) You can't manipulate, with fake it till you make it trickery, but in theory, you possibly can change their feelings. That's what feelings do. They change. all of you know this as fact because you're experiencing emotional rollercoaster going through this. something else I realized to is adaptability try to be more adaptable and less rigid in your thinking and your actions. for some it may take a while to get this I know it's been a struggle of most of my life. Some W will blame the demise of the M on chemistry or compatibility, some will blame it on a lack of what you couldn't anticipate what their needs were, etc, some cheat to get even, in some she just for the hell of it so they want to see if the grass is greener. I know I'm making a generalization hear about women, but I noticed that most of them have a tendency to ruminate on percieved hurts and disappointments, like they keep a tally on it.

.

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Ok I"m back for some more journaling (and probably some debate).

I finished 3 of 6 of Sandi's WW threads - there is some real DB/WW gold in there but one from Zues126 that caught me just right tonight:

"Watching an emotionally empty woman that was in a lot of pain give herself physically to other men to feel important and attractive, well I just feel bad for her."

This hit me because it felt like true detachment (at least in regards to the A). It felt inspirational. But I also recognized the difference in emotion. It was sympathetic and not empathetic. It felt confident. It is not the overwhelming feeling I have but I feel a bit of this and wish I had more of it. It also allowed me to reflect on how each different emotion has a unique spin on the entire sitch. So then I recognized the anger emotion and when not used too strongly, also has some very inspirational characters for the WW sitch. However, it seems that the vets and the board really do not use/play on this emotion at all (except in the beginning where most people cant actually use it). Let me explain: If a person was educated on DB before BD - the best PA-BD scenario wold be one of confidence (I know some will argue against it) but also anger. The steps would be to move the WW belongings out of the MB, tell them it is over and to plan quickly for their exit - Period. Now, I know some will say this is just self respect and confidence but BS if we aren't also implying that anger is a very strong emotion in this scenario. But after the BD event it's all about being 'happy' but not pursuing. Yes there is some tough love talk but just like in my situation i'm expected to have a facade that doesn't really include anger. Obviously I recognized and spoke of the opposite above (detaching with love) - but love and anger are not mutually exclusive in situations like this. I also recognize that the speech I previously wanted to give had some anger in it - and all suggested against it (and probably rightfully so) but I'm finding my anger to be a great motivator for me to actually detach and move on. Especially considering you all keep reminding me how much time this will take (some other DB gold from Sandi on the time subject in her threads but I'll save that for another post).

Now here is the point and why it affected me tonight. After my great day with the W having friendly conversation that had nothing to do with pursuing... I came home and she was going to the apartment to put together more furniture. No big deal, actually helped her load heavy boxes in her car and made some more jokes. Then she asked for another piece of furniture to have from the house. A relatively small/cheap piece. In hindsight I know I should have just said yeah - sure, take it. But I didn't. I pushed back a little. Not a lot, but between the two of us it became a little issue that sprouted other points of contention. (that fact that she is packing all things while I"m not around and taking them to her apartment). Which I kind of knew would be the case to begin with (i'm getting the house and 95% of everything in it - so yes she can basically take what she wants. But it is uncomfortable not really know what she is taking that I don't see or recognize. So I made a small point about this. In short it was a small spat and I backed right away from it and basically apologized and said yes please take it! Then she left and I felt bad/guilty because I knew the conversation should have never went there. I wanted to text and apologize again after she left - then it hit me. No F-her. I shouldn't have made it a big deal, but who the F cares. Is this little spat really going to make a big different 6-12 months down the road? NO. I'm mad, I'm betrayed, she is Wayward and GGW. I don't give a Shut that she is a little pissed off. And why should I? I have plenty of time to be detached and not angry in the next year(s) - right? I get the fact that begging/pursuing can make the long-term situation worse. But what self respecting man wouldn't be angry in this scenario? Why cant I be Pi$$ed? and show some of it?

If you cant tell my point is: if we are to detach, anger is a great motivator and me attaching to the idea that I've been betrayed and I am angry and I don't care to make every little aspect easy for her. I'm pi$$ed so what. As long as I'm not pursuing - what do I care what she thinks right now. It's already going to get worse before it gets better. Why do i have to be so "careful" all the time?

I'm having a hard time understanding detachment that coincides with waiting for her. I guess I'm just more black/white. Either in or out.

After reading Sandi's post about the process and time for the U-turn, tonight I'm leaning towards just being done! and that feels like detachment! Of course this might change tomorrow but it doesn't mean it's not real or relevant as a factor.


H(me:) 44
W: 45
T: 16yrs
M: 13
S: 9
S: 6
Pre BD (not really recognized by either) 8/18
PA 11/18
PA suspected 12/22/18 (Denied)
PA confirmed 12/28/18
PA #2 (Different) 2/16/19
S: 4/7/2019

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Originally Posted by P_Jam
So then I recognized the anger emotion and when not used too strongly, also has some very inspirational characters for the WW sitch.

Anger can be a great motivator when used correctly. Think about in Rocky IV when Rocky crumbled the picture of Drago that was on his mirror after looking at it everyday while training.

Originally Posted by P_Jam
In short it was a small spat and I backed right away from it and basically apologized and said yes please take it! Then she left and I felt bad/guilty because I knew the conversation should have never went there. I wanted to text and apologize again after she left - then it hit me. No F-her. I shouldn't have made it a big deal, but who the F cares.
Its ok to stand for yourself when appropriate. If you didn't want to give it up then you shouldn't have. Just don't stand for something and then back down when she gets mad. That makes you look weak.

Originally Posted by P_Jam
Is this little spat really going to make a big different 6-12 months down the road? NO. I'm mad, I'm betrayed, she is Wayward and GGW.

I agree it means nothing.
Originally Posted by P_Jam
I don't give a Shut that she is a little pissed off. And why should I?

You shouldn't. Water off a ducks back.

Originally Posted by P_Jam
Why cant I be Pi$$ed? and show some of it?

Who said you can't?

Originally Posted by P_Jam
If you cant tell my point is: if we are to detach, anger is a great motivator and me attaching to the idea that I've been betrayed and I am angry and I don't care to make every little aspect easy for her.

You shouldn't make it easy for her. Every move you make should be regarding what is best for you and the kids.

Originally Posted by P_Jam
I'm pi$$ed so what. As long as I'm not pursuing - what do I care what she thinks right now. It's already going to get worse before it gets better. Why do i have to be so "careful" all the time?

You don't. The thing is if anger was one of her complaints against you then she will think this is more of the same from you.

Originally Posted by P_Jam
I'm having a hard time understanding detachment that coincides with waiting for her. I guess I'm just more black/white. Either in or out.

I will post my version of detachment below. It is currently how I live my life. I think you may be confused. No one is saying to wait for her. You definitely need to be moving forward. When you attain true detachment you will be happy one way or another. If she wants to recon fine. If not, that is ok too. I live my life like my ex is never going to want to recon. I never pursue. I do not analyse to death anything she says or does. I do not long for her or my old life. Having said all that if she wanted to recon I would at least have to think about it RIGHT NOW. She is the mother of my children and we have a lot in common. We just came from two families who are both horrible in relationships so of course we adopted the characteristics.
Originally Posted by P_Jam
After reading Sandi's post about the process and time for the U-turn, tonight I'm leaning towards just being done! and that feels like detachment! Of course this might change tomorrow but it doesn't mean it's not real or relevant as a factor.

That's because right now you are on top of the roller coaster and slowly moving towards the big drop.

Today I will commit myself to detachment. I will allow myself and those around me the freedom to be as they are. I will not rigidly impose my idea of how things should be. I will not force solutions on problems, thereby creating new problems. I will participate in everything with detached involvement.

Today I will factor in uncertainty as an essential ingredient of my experience. In my willingness to accept uncertainty, solutions will spontaneously emerge out of the problem, out of the confusion, disorder, and chaos.

The more uncertain things seem to be, the more secure I will feel, because uncertainty is my path to freedom. Through the wisdom of uncertainty, I will find my security.

I will step into the field of all possibilities and anticipate the excitement that can occur when I remain open to infinity of choices. When I step into the field of all possibilities, I will experience all the fun, adventure, magic, and mystery of life.

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Thanks LH,

not the responses I was expecting actually.

It was a completely non-essential piece of furniture. The correct way to handle it would have been "yes of course take it. I don't care" - cause I don't. That is why I backed down, not just cause she got mad, I shouldn't have even pushed back on this small piece at all. I know I"m getting the better end of the deal in regards to house and goods (but not by as much as she thinks) if we really went to court and brought EVERYTHING into community property that would bring her 401K into play (which because of me paying for mostly all 'overhead' is much bigger than mine). She knows this deep down inside, but has no idea how the numbers would actually wash out in the details, so she's just attaching her financial loss (compared to me) because of ignorance. That being said; I really don't want to go to court and let the attorneys win all the money either.

She's interpreting this as me 'punishing' her. Which I admit there is a piece of that. I do not want this move to be easy, I do want her to have to struggle a little. Definitely not to the point of affecting my children, but she created a lot of debt herself (that I'm not involved in). She makes good money but this debt will weight her down for a long time. But even with it she can afford her 50% of child rearing - she just won't be saving or creating any ability to get out of her problem in the next few years. Because we were not married there is still community property in play as we were together for so long, but there is no such thing as spousal support in this situation. But I am getting off easy financially - so I need to focus on not making mountains out of mole hills here. But back to the 'punishing' - yes I am and its specifically because of something she said (again) during this fight. "Hey, look! I know i'm the one "moving out" <-- she actually used air quotes with her hands to emphasize sarcasm, but YOU are not the victim here!!" <-- I almost lost it on this one. How in the F- am I not a victim? <-- This is the underlying factor that wants me to strike back with things like my GGW speech, and letting her know what I know. I'm definitely a victim of your emotional abuse and blatant disrespect!

Anger was not every one of the complaints against me. This is about punishiment which she doesn't believe she deserves. She has fully justified all actions in her head.

I like your definition! I'm going to copy it and add it to my inspirational things I try to read when I get down. Here is one I read often to continue to try and internalize the logic into emotion and feeling for myself:



Just Let Them Go

The end result?

The end result is to respect yourself in the end,
let go of the people that don't value you or respect you.

That is the end result.

The quickest way to get a cheating spouse back is to let them go with a smile on your face wishing them the best in life and hoping that everything works out in their relationship with their affair partner.

Seriously, the quickest way to get them back.

Nothing else works better or quicker.

Let them go.

Agree with them and their feelings,
"you should be with the OM, I hope he makes you happy, good bye"

Wouldn't that be true love?

If you really loved your spouse,
and wanted them to have what they really want in life which is the other person they're in love with,
wouldn't letting them go be the approach if you really love them?

Why focus on the affair or the drama associated with it?
Just let them go. Give them their freedom.

You can take a good hard look at yourself in the mirror everyday and improve yourself but do it for you, not for someone else, the changes will never stick when it's done for someone else, do it for your benefit and you will probably make those changes last much longer if not indefinitely - because it's for your benefit and you realize the importance and value in that benefit because YOU are involved.

I will never tell someone to change to entice a WAW back when she's been cheating on him. I don't care how bad a marriage, there is never an excuse for cheating. That is a personal decision that someone makes to cheat on their spouse. If a marriage is really bad, leave, get a divorce, speak up to your spouse and tell them flat out "this marriage [censored] and if things don't change I'm going to leave you and find someone better" and if things don't improve, leave that person.

But cheating, no excuses.

Think about cheating.
A wayward spouse who cheats on their spouse goes behind their back, secretly, telling lies, feeling guilty, getting angry at their spouse for getting in the way of their fantasies but never owning up to their actions, never admitting what they're doing. If a person who cheats on their spouse felt justified in their actions, why hide and go behind their spouses backs when they start cheating, why lie, why make up excuses about late nights at work and going to a friends place and sleeping over because they drank too much and any other such nonsense?

Deep down, the cheating spouse knows there is something inherently wrong with their actions otherwise they wouldn't lie about their actions and hide what they're doing.

Fighting the affair? For what reason?
To compete with the OM or OW for your spouse?
What message does that communicate to your wayward spouse?
They have lots of value and you have none because now you have to compete with another person for their love? Competing with your wayward spouse's affair partner never works, it just prolongs an ugly drama filled process.

And for your last point,
The easiest way to show you will not tolerate cheating in your relationship is to let that person go. That is the easiest and most effective way to show this.

"Look wife/husband, I won't be in an open relationship with you, I won't give you X number of days, weeks, months to make your mind, if you really feel like you need to sit on the fence on this decision and can't decide between your affair partner and me well I will make the decision for you, you can be with them because I'm no longer an option. I love you and wish you a good life with them and hope it works out for you because it didn't work out for us. Now the best thing we can do for each other is to make this process as graceful and peaceful as possible for us and our children, I'll contact a lawyer/mediator and get started on the process of our legal separation/divorce."

You give them what they want.
You don't fight them on this issue.
You agree with their feelings,
they want to be with the other person, fine they should be with the other person, let them be with the other person.

You will never convince a person to change their feelings with your arguments and logic. You can not find one member on this website in a situation where they are dealing with infidelity where they got their spouse to change their mind about how they feel about their affair partner.

You can't say "don't love them, love me instead",
you can't say "look at me, I'm better in every way compared to your affair partner, pick me instead of them",
you can't say "you took marriage vows, you promised to love me"

I agree, you don't have to make it easy for your wayward spouse to have an affair, but when you let them go, "lovingly detach", you don't have to worry about making it easy for them. It's no longer your concern, they can have you or them but not both and not at the same time and since they've chosen to have an affair, they've made their choice, there is no profit in fighting that decision. Let them go and move on with your life, that is the quickest, easiest way to get them back.

You definitely don't support them financially and enable them, that would be weak, wussy, clingy, insecure behavior - something in you telling you that you need to support them financially while they're having an affair, hoping they'll realize how nice you are and come back to you.

Just let them go, have them move out or you move out and live a good life without them.


H(me:) 44
W: 45
T: 16yrs
M: 13
S: 9
S: 6
Pre BD (not really recognized by either) 8/18
PA 11/18
PA suspected 12/22/18 (Denied)
PA confirmed 12/28/18
PA #2 (Different) 2/16/19
S: 4/7/2019

Joined: Feb 2017
Posts: 9,227
Likes: 309
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Originally Posted by P_Jam
not the responses I was expecting actually.

What did you expect?
Originally Posted by P_Jam
I know I"m getting the better end of the deal in regards to house and goods (but not by as much as she thinks) if we really went to court and brought EVERYTHING into community property that would bring her 401K into play (which because of me paying for mostly all 'overhead' is much bigger than mine).

If you know your'e getting a good deal then don't cut off your nose to spite your face.
Originally Posted by P_Jam
That being said; I really don't want to go to court and let the attorneys win all the money either.

You are a very smart man.
Originally Posted by P_Jam
She's interpreting this as me 'punishing' her. Which I admit there is a piece of that. I do not want this move to be easy, I do want her to have to struggle a little.

Don't worry about punishing her. She certainly will struggle without your help.
Originally Posted by P_Jam
But I am getting off easy financially - so I need to focus on not making mountains out of mole hills here.

You are a very smart man.
Originally Posted by P_Jam
"Hey, look! I know i'm the one "moving out" <-- she actually used air quotes with her hands to emphasize sarcasm, but YOU are not the victim here!!"

Your children are the only victims in this breakup.
Originally Posted by P_Jam
I'm definitely a victim of your emotional abuse and blatant disrespect!

Please clarify what you mean by this statement.

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P_Jam Offline OP
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As far as 'victim' - yes I guess I"m a little confused. If I'm not a victim of these actions and her betrayal - What am I?

I know that I "shouldn't" act like a victim - as I will be okay with out her as well has having something to do with the breakdown of the marriage - but what then is this, from my perspective. He ongoing PA/EA after being confronted and told that she cannot continue while living under this roof, as well as treating me like I"m 'crazy' for snooping and following up to prove she is lieing (feels a little abusive). What is a better term?

Agreed, kids the major victims as they had NO part in this at all. Don't deny that.


H(me:) 44
W: 45
T: 16yrs
M: 13
S: 9
S: 6
Pre BD (not really recognized by either) 8/18
PA 11/18
PA suspected 12/22/18 (Denied)
PA confirmed 12/28/18
PA #2 (Different) 2/16/19
S: 4/7/2019

Joined: Mar 2019
Posts: 119
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LH,
I just expected a little more 'debate' from you on the anger side of things. Like I said, I do have some anger/feelings that I want to get off my chest. Whether it's the best DB strategy or not. Such as my speech and letting her know more of what I know. I'm bothered by the fact that she can continue to say that "you're not the victim" As if she is. Even if victim is the wrong term - I'm sooo very frustrated that I have to look her in the eyes and listen to this defensiveness and justification.

I was unfaithful too, I'm not better than her. But I am much farther in my recovery and I completely own my mistakes/decisions. Watching her escape all of this without my retort - is extremely frustrating. Even in normal days, but especially when she tries to throw it directly in my face. I have done her wrong, I get that - but she seems to forget that she too has done me wrong. Most recently, which is actually why we are where we are.

Last edited by P_Jam; 03/29/19 05:52 PM.

H(me:) 44
W: 45
T: 16yrs
M: 13
S: 9
S: 6
Pre BD (not really recognized by either) 8/18
PA 11/18
PA suspected 12/22/18 (Denied)
PA confirmed 12/28/18
PA #2 (Different) 2/16/19
S: 4/7/2019

Joined: Feb 2017
Posts: 9,227
Likes: 309
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Originally Posted by P_Jam
Her ongoing PA/EA after being confronted and told that she cannot continue while living under this roof, as well as treating me like I"m 'crazy' for snooping and following up to prove she is lieing (feels a little abusive). What is a better term?

This is controlling behavior dude. Look man I am on your side but I think you have control issues. You are also dieing for her to know that you know so she doesn't think she has one up on you. These are things you should be working on with your IC.

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