I can see that would make anyone insecure. I hope you do get some of that. The uncertainty is very difficult isn't it? I really hope family therapy was useful.
I was just reading back about how you tried to 'force' him to make changes. That is very pursuer-y behaviour... No matter how well intended, to a distancer that comes across as critical and like you will never satisfy the pursuer and never be good enough. Maybe your husband will be like me and experience enough pain for him to want to change without the pressure. I always thought I was open to change and to improving myself before, but I was wrong. I made everything about my husband's bad behaviour without looking at my role in things and in how he experienced my behaviour. I still have a lot to learn I think, probably the rest of my life!
Yes - I was so desperate for my marriage to work and so urgently needed him to stop doing the things he was doing that were hurting me. A mature and assertive response would have been to move away from him - to set some boundaries to protect myself from his bile and nastiness. But I wasn't healthy enough to do that - instead I defended, cajoled, convinced, persuaded, cried - all the usual stuff. And all that just triggered more nastiness from him. I don't do any of that any more. I do kind of wish I'd left him, or forced him to leave, much much much earlier as I am not sure if the damage we've done to each other is reparable. I hope it is, but I can't change the past.
Had GAL today and it was lovely. Really enjoyed my time with the kids. It's a bit sad to think of him alone and working - or processing, or whatever it is he's doing - and not enjoying that with us. Even when he's with youngest they don't really do anything fun together. He's just so little capacity at the moment. I am doing my best with the encouragement but I don't expect much from him at the moment and I don't think that's going to change for a while. We will see how the therapy goes tomorrow. I am feeling pretty anxious that he'll just use it to unload on me - as he did when we went to MC - but I know I won't tolerate that any more, and I also want to go into it with an open mind and ready to listen. And knowing in my heart I am moving forward and every day takes me away from that misery I was trapped in, and today that feels good even though the future is so uncertain.
Two hours with the family therapist. Eldest left after half an hour or so, and the rest of the time H and I spent talking about parenting. Therapist said she had difficulty knowing what we were working towards - co-parenting as separate people, or working towards him coming back. H said he wanted to come back, I said that I was open to that, but not if it involved me rolling over and agreeing to things that I could not get behind. H was pretty obstructive - lots of complaints about any suggestions from me, unwillingness to make any suggestions of his own. Eldest was also reactive and sulky and pretty ill mannered at times. I managed to validate and keep calm and collected but I can't say I thought it was that productive. Not sure this therapist is the ideal one for us.
He left, and I phoned him - mainly because I wanted to say thank you to him for trying (he finds that sort of thing exhausting and difficult and I was really appreciative he made the effort) - and he ended up coming back and we talked a bit more. The upshot is, he is very clear he wants to try again and go forward as a family but he wants to feel that he matters and that he and I are the parents, together, and not me and Eldest. I do think he's got a point in that. I said I wanted to do that, but for that to work for me, we needed to come to some agreements on parenting privately, between ourselves, be united on them (though take into account what Eldest is communicating about his needs) and deliver them together. I validated his feelings on where I had not done that in the past, and where I thought his perceptions of things were spot on, I told him so. I also told him that while I wanted that, it didn't mean I could always 100% agree with him, and that I would need him to be willing to make changes too and while I was willing to let him think about that and come to his own decisions, the children needed parenting now and the door was open for collaboration, but there were decisions that were time sensitive and if he couldn't collaborate, I would go forward on my own. My fear is that if I disagree with him in private, or if Eldest doesn't do what we agree he should do, that H is going to blame me.
What I found easier in this conversation than before was to think the best of him and to see the fear and hurt underneath his bluster and anger. I also felt less afraid of his anger. I see he feels totally rejected and unimportant and somehow me punishing Eldest in a way that feels acceptable to him has become a proxy for him feeling important to me in other ways. I can see he feels massively hurt that he I communicated some of that to him, and said I had done him wrong and that mattered, and that I wanted to show him respect.
We left it on friendly terms. I have a lot to think about. We agreed to take the week to think things over and each come up with a list of things to change based on the conversation with the therapist and some consideration of what Eldest needs. And that we'd sit next weekend and agree on some middle ground, and how to implement that together.
I'm afraid that if I don't capitulate on everything he's going to feel disrespected and unloved and that I'm going to have to end up taking parenting decisions I really can't feel okay about in order to keep him. I'm aware of that, and plan to discuss it in IC. I can't get into the mindset that I'm doing any of my parenting as a way of healing my marriage, though I think I do have parenting 180s to do whether or not the marriage is reconcilled.
That does sound mentally exhausting! Quite hopeful though. You've written it down, have a good night's sleep and then think about it more when you're not so overwhelmed. There's so much complicated stuff in there.
It really is. I think the parenting thing is a massive, massive issue for him. He feels pushed out by mine and Eldest's bond. He feels we're a unit that has taken a side against him. I can see why he'd think that, and I know he's absolutely right that there's been many occasions that my fear of conflict has landed him with the dirty work of parenting. He's been bad cop. And the stricter he's been, the more I've compensated by being comforting and empathic, and the more he's compensated by being harsh, and the more Eldest has taken advantage of that (and been upset and hurt by it). It takes both of us to move, and someone to go first, and because I agree that Eldest needs firmer boundaries, I am happy to go first. But I also need him to be showing warmth and a change in his communication style towards Eldest. And none of this is much to do with R, though I don't want to R unless we can sort this out well, so of course it is to do with R.
Yes, it is to do with R but also separate. Everything is so complicated. I can identify with being the good cop, I left dh to be the mean parent, the parent who imposed strict rules, the unreasonable parent. The parent who was at a disadvantage because I knew the kids so much better and spent so much more time with them and comforted them. I told dh in my email to him the other day that I wished he had a better relationship with ds2. Ds2 is 14 and so at the most tricky age, and he has always been close to me, but I told dh that he's like a cat, you just have to hang about for a while and wait for him to come to you and offer him little titbits (in ds2's case it's his subjects of passion). The other time ds2 opens up is during car journeys with just us two, so maybe I need to tell dh this too. Ds1 will travel up to see dh on Fridays but ds2 refuses to (he's like a cat, he's territorial...) In a way I've been reluctant to want dh to be close to ds2, that was really rubbish of me I can see now. Sorry, got off track there with my own story, but our relationship with our kids is complicated and impacts our relationships with our spouses because they have their own stuff there too which we can inadvertently interfere with ('you're doing it all wrong'). And as our relationship with our kids changes as they grow up, we need to step back and let things happen more with both them and with our husbands. It's difficult, don't we have enough mourning to do already when we're losing our babies?
it is really hard, isn't it? I have to weigh really carefully where I am bringing in my own father-issues into this relationship (and I am certain I have been for a long time and that has been really unfair to H, who is difficult and flawed and has acted badly, but is not a monster as my own father was) and where H is using Eldest as a kind of proxy - I get the sense that if I disagree with him - even quietly and in private - he feels it is disrespectful, rather than considering me as an adult with a good sense of what my children need and how to form a good relationship with them. It's certainly a tangle.
I am valuing my alone time tonight. I haven't missed him too much recently because I have such a lot to process and such a lot to do on on my own.
I appreciate hearing your story and your experience. It is hard. I have suggestions - many suggestions - for how H might improve his relationship with Eldest. But in the end I think that comes off as micromanaging and interfering and just reinforces the fact he feels disrespected and Eldest believes he's incompetent. I think I have to support H where I can honestly do so, examine myself and my own motivations very carefully with the help of my IC, and be very boundaried around behaviour that is inappropriate no matter what H might decide to do in response. It feels exhausting.
I'm not sure anyone likes being micromanaged do they? Maybe this is something to discuss with your husband? When he would welcome constructive suggestions and when he wants you to back off and butt out. Might be a very useful topic of conversation, no matter whether you R or not. I admire your communication with him recently, there is so much good stuff in there.
It is better. I think the validating I have been trying to do helps. I would like some empathy and validation myself and there's not that much of it forthcoming, but hey ho. He did give me a hug today and say he knew it was hard and he could see I was trying my best, and that was new and did mean a lot.
I feel very vulnerable tonight. Like my marriage depends on me being able to force Eldest to do what H wants him to do, and H's standards are much more precise than mine. I want to meet in the middle, and I also want H to understand that we can set boundaries and choose our response, but neither of us can force a teenager to do much of anything - we don't really have that much control over the outcome, only our responses. This makes me feel really panicky. But I need sleep and I think I have to trust that H will think about this this week and if he feels listened to and respected in other ways, his need for perfect and total obedience from Eldest will become a little more flexible and (to my mind) realistic.
I also have a much darker feeling I am not proud of. Eldest is difficult. Stroppy and reactive and argumentative. I think it's in the scale of normal teenage behaviour, and is definitely worse with H than with me. I don't want to end up hating Eldest because his hostility to H and unwillingness to make a compromise and give another chance costs me my marriage. I don't want to get into blame. I hate feeling like this - and it is only a glimmer of a feeling - but I will take it to IC this week and process it safely and in private.
It wasn't a useless session, and there were moments where I could see that H was trying hard to communicate. But sitting with him that long really reminded me of all the reasons why I don't want to live with him.
He's incredibly critical - isn't able to say what he wants, only to point out what he doesn't like. Won't make suggestions for changes or solutions to problems that affect him. Totally unwilling to compromise to meet the needs of anyone else. I suggested we both needed to come into the middle, gave examples of things I felt I needed to change, and said I was willing to go first. Asked him if there was anything he felt he could change or move on. Point blank no, no way, not considering it, not even talking about what would need to change so he could consider it. His preferences and needs are 'facts' - I guess it makes him too vulnerable to consider them needs or wants, so he externalises them - and other people's preferences and needs are just that and so optional. Blame. Won't say what he wants - even in the session - then when we were coming towards a decision, claimed that what he wanted hadn't been taken into account, then when the therapist asked him to say what he wanted, he claimed there wasn't enough time to go into it - which is classic evasive tactics. Vague. Started talking generally about boundaries. Therapist pressed him for specific example. He got exasperated and said it wasn't possible. He started raising his voice and berating me at one point - and I flinched - then he got angry with me because I'd flinched and claimed I was play acting in order to get the therapist on side. I asked him if he'd lower his voice as I found it upsetting, then he started whispering sarcastically.
I have no idea why he went, I really don't. I didn't force him, and I gave him the option at every point of discussion to say he didn't want to, to decline, etc etc. But he doesn't seem to be capable of considering change or asking for what he wants. It was, in some ways, a nasty trip back to the past of living with a resentful, bitter, bile-filled child and I never ever want to go back there.
I've made the list that the therapist recommended and sent it over to him. He's told me he needs everything to be in specific detail, and also that he doesn't like getting long emails from me as he hasn't got the time or interest in digesting them. So no doubt I will have failed on one of those two requirements and our conversation on Sunday will be about the many ways I have got things wrong either in the past or now.
I am so exhausted by this. I am not sure I have the strength in me to keep putting myself through it and I don't know why I want to carry on. I could divorce him pretty easily and the financial consequences would not be terrible for me.
