Story and Symptoms of MLC/WAW Part 2

[IHCLACS]

So there are a few things I need to reflect on here today looking for patterns or answers. I know there are a lot of different answers for a lot of different reasons, experiences, etc, on here.

Although I know the answer because of the wonderful insight on here from its members. I would still like to explore it more however.

Why is it that the mindset of the WAW after initiating BD, or months after, some look at the LBH as a "good friend" that has enriched their lives for however long we were married to them? (Possibly attraction?) But still want to separate.
Why is it that when they feel the need to go independent of M if they are not WW, pursue new growth, new lifestyles, new hobbies, social activities, health habits, places to live, new careers, etc.. I get that. I understand individuals need growth in an R, or separate from R. People need to groth together if they are together.

What bewilders me is how they initiative torwards that change, but lack follow through. Its like they are in such a hurry to sell M home, (or claim it in buy out) get independant, and move forward with their lives, put in all that work to live independently to reclaim their so called happiness, sence of self, and purpose in life, etc. All that work and effort being put into to separation, imagine what could be accomplished if they worked that hard, not only on themselves, but the M or the relationship, that they claimed they were working so hard on for years, but by themselves, that hardly ever got brought to the LBH's attention. The WAW just sat around, did their own thing, took no accountability of themselves and what they were doing for the R, and expected their LBH to live up to their expectations, that the WAW couldn't even fulfil in themselves? I know men and women's perceptions can be vastly different.

But then they still lack follow through on that change in the present. (No backup career lined up, but aspirations No place to live, but plans for such, will live out of vacation home of MIL, or friends basement if necessary, wants to quit job and rely on income of sale of M home to supplement income for year, and stay home with S1, and work from home.) Sorry but im not ready to make that decision yet without exploring my own buyout options, attorney, possibilities, etc. And made myself politely clear on that, whether it works with W's timeline or not. I'm not holding her hostage, but I'm not going to be pressured either.

Another thing. Why is it that they have no problem having no accountability to LBH of their social lives somewhat a secret (no affairs as of date), but still want LBH involved in most family and social affairs with their friends? (Cake eating) Is it because of co parenting and remaining amicable? And she also has no problem hanging out with me and S1 if invited. We have a good time when we are out with S1.

She still wants to remain in touch with my mom and family as well, but is asking me if I'm ok with it. I just respond,
"You are and individual and so is my mom. I think my mom would like that and its totally up to you."

It just amazes me how grounded they think they are in reality in fulfilling their grand master plan torwards Independence and freedom. Don't get me wrong, i hope my W does get to fulfil her ambitions on her journey after we separate, i wish her well. But I still think reality is going to smack her hard in the face, when she finally gets there, and isn't going to be as cracked up as she thinks its going to be once she does, she says she has mentally prepared herself for it, I think she is only scratching the surface.

In my opinion as pretty much everyone says on here. I am most likely her plan b in case she fails at whatever she wants to do with her life. I'll be her friend, but once that ship has sailed, it has sailed for me. I won't be plan b. I almost wish I could fast forward into a new independent life myself. New apartment. New lifestyle, etc, without having to go through all the pain and turmoil, and breeches of trust from selling the M home. That's a big one for me. I have decided I can never trust her again as far as living with her because of such, which is pushing me torwards initiating D, but im not ready to make that decision today.

[IHCLACS]

Guys I'm done. I'm sorry. I've told myself I shouldn't make this decision based off emotions and I don't have to make this decision today. But im done. As much sense as this may not make to some people, I cannot get past not being able to trust the W ever again as far as living with her again, and selling the house which I am under enormous pressure, which I am not ready to do, especially on her timeline.

Every thing else I am open to, but I don't think my W could ever earn my trust back as far as living together again if I sell this house, although the house is meaningless. Feeling that I'm being forced to make a financial and living decision that I don't want to make breeches my trust as man, and it's permenant.

I can be friends, I can be friendly, we can work together to get done what we need to get done, I just can't get past the trust issues that have been breached about living together again in the future. Even if we both made major changes. I still would never be able to trust living with her in future. If all this effort has to be made torwards separating, and not torwards reconciling, then im done, I'm not going to waste my years sitting in limbo land approaching 40 yrs old. I have no patience left to hold on anymore. I won't be plan b, and I won't be able to ever trust living W my wife ever again. I've made my declaration as of tonight. We are both on board as far as the D. We still have to figure out housing and whatnot over the summer. How and who is going to pay for things. Im going to start shopping for mediators this week.

I'm out for a while and will let everyone know any major updates as time goes by. Thank you for all your help and wonderful insight.

[Tryhard]

When trust is broken it takes a long time to build back , it doesn’t seem like she is in a place to meet you in the middle . Stay strong and do the right thing for you .

[gzabetas]

If I can offer what I found out recently from my WAW as a reason of the BD, something that I dont see mentioned anywhere in Michele's book DR (possibly in her other books) is what they tought of the sex.

Mine flat out told me that it wasnt that good. Ouch. I know.
OK we have a son and she had orgasms even if not always.
But the frequency of sex and lack of foreplay or seduction kills it.

I know I had no response to that. I told her she was right. I verified that we had good times at some point but there were long rough patches where we couldnt meet in climax.

I owned it. I was unemployed for a long time with my sex drive down.

How was your sex life with her?

[gzabetas]

IHCLACS btw I dont condone her actions of course, as you and I have said in the past.

They are still immature, and they need to own that. Not communicating, pouting, holding grudges etc.
I gave her her list as well. I hope she works on it but I doubt it.

[IHCLACS]

gzabetas. In my opinion and as some people have stated here, it's emotional immaturity. If you were really to look at all areas of someone's life everyone has emotional immaturity even myself.

[IHCLACS]

Okay so I know I said I wouldn't be back for a while. I know I'm going to going to get multiple 2x4's over the head for this deservingly.

After our fun night at the drive-in the other night, the next day W started pressuring me about getting the house on the market. I had to take a break from the conversation so I took S one to the park, while she researched buyout options or me,and refinancing for divorce. I didn't ask her to do this . So later that night, We were watching TV with S1. The show was called This Is Us. With Mandy Moore. It's a series where people have two or three flashbacks of different points in their life all revolving around kids struggles in life, marriage, space,,individual identity, etc there was this one scene we're a couple of 20 years was having difficulties balance in their lives of individuals with their professions and passions. Then the scene reverse back to where that couple decided to get engaged, and they promised each other that they wouldn't move their identities in themselves by merging together.

Shortly after that scene I asked my W. What do you plan on doing with your engagement ring? She stated she was going to save it for our S1. I asked well what if I want to sell it? She says you can't sell it it was a gift. So I let the conversation go at that. Now keep in mind I didn't actually say this but this is what I was thinking the whole time. Why in the world would you want to re-gift an engagement ring to our S1, that I gave to you and promised that you would stay married to me for life, only to pass along to him, as an example of a failed marriage? Isn't that kind of like Bad Karma?

Now I may have acted on this impulsively shortly after this incident, but just after we put S1 to bed, I told W that I'm going to file for divorce. That I'm willing to remain open in all other aspects, but I cannot get past the trust issues of me being forced to sell the home because of the choices she's making to separate. That one that ship finally sails. Even though I will I will be able to trust her in other areas, I won't ever be able to trust living with her again. She stated her areas in which she was unable to trust me. Such as some of my behaviors excetera, I stated to her that even though I've only been going to DBT training for 3 weeks there's been significant Improvement and she is seen it as far as managing my emotions. She thinks I'm bipolar which I'm not. I don't even have full malignant BPD, and explain to her that it is a spectrum just like other things. That I just have some characteristic traits in my thinking. I remind everybody that she is a behavior specialist was no longer confident in her abilities and wants to resign from her job by this summer. I explained to her that I'm a work in progress and I cannot change the past but I am sorry for it and I wish things were different. I also stated to her that I did not want to live in a Loveless marriage, she said it's not that there isn't love there, it's just taking on a more friendly form. I agreed. I stated it to her that I've been trying to find ways to meet her halfway and try to work on things for the last six months despite her unwillingness to, and how she wants to go out and alone individually. That I am done trying. if we were in an apartment and were to just divide up everything during a separation I would have been fine with that. but because my timeline isn't meeting her timeline as far as selling the house and her achieving her goals to be out by the summer, I feel like my hand is being forced and I'm not ready to move that quickly, without wrapping up the projects and getting full value of the home. she actually wants to go to the extent where she's going to borrow more money from her parents to hire people if I don't correspond to her time line. I've tried to negotiate with Sarah that I will get the small things where I can and when I can because I work so much. and if that's what she feels she needs to do, then that's her decision, not mine. I get that she needs the income from the sale of the home to explore and live off of her new life that she wants to fulfill. we also discussed potentially looking at mediators. I may not decide to go that route and go pro se, as I'm fairly decent with legal stuff, although not my profession. But I'm sure consultation couldn't hurt

So again I reiterated that once that trust is broken and the house is sold I don't know if I could trust to ever live with her again so there's no point in keeping the separation open ended. I reiterated that even though I wasn't 100% sure that this is what I wanted, but is what will happen if my trust is breached by selling the home, I am fairly sure that this is what I wanted, if it comes down to selling the house. I also stated that if we were to sell the house and she was willing to work on things, that I may be a little more open in working on things which I'm sure she would never agree with as of this moment.

Yesterday I decided I want to divorce. I asked her for pertinent documents pertaining to such in text message yesterday morning. Marriage license mortgage statement excetera. At first she asked what for? And then she said she would get them for me what she did once I got home. I found out yesterday she stayed home from work again because she said she felt a lot of overwhelming anxiety that Sunday night into Monday morning, and she just couldn't go to work. She didn't stay why but I knew why But we still had amicable conversation and we're polite and friendly with one another. My printer actually broke on me to make copies so she said she would copy the documents at her job the following morning.
We both reiterated to talk from Sunday night and had a polite an understanding conversation.

I'm at a conflict with myself. I know time heals trust, and I know it appears as if she is forcing my hand and now I'm forcing hers. It's almost a battle of wills of stubbornness. But I genuinely feel that if I have to sell this home on her timeline and I will never be able to live with her or trust her financially, or legally again. I do understand that she needs a time during the separation to not only pursue her dreams and her goals and find herself and some of her desires but also needs a time to heal through individual counseling and therapy. I told her that I don't want to put pressure on her with that, and I understand that, I want to have another talk about working through our trust issues, and how we can potentially resolve them about our discrepancies about living together at the bare minimum, with no talk of reconciliation. There are things that I understand about her POV.

Devised in my own mind. I do have a list of requirements as I would also ask her if she had a list of hers if she ever did want to reconcile, about what we both need to change and how we can work together to change it. She doesn't know this and I'm not putting much hope in it as of right now.

I'm really not trying to play a poker game here with a poker face, and force anyone's hand. She has trust issues with living with me and some of my behaviors which I'm working on. I have trust issues with her and some of her behaviors which I think she is working on. But we are not working on them for each other, but for ourselves. She is bending up all of her stuff and getting ready for a move in the next couple of months. I have just started.

Even though I've declared that I'm starting the divorce process, I still know in my own mind that I have the power to decide and the dissolution has not yet been filed. Maybe perhaps I don't have to make that decision today or tomorrow or even next month and I can take my time to find some clarity in it, but she doesn't know that. But I think that she's allowing me to do it to see if I'm going to follow through with my words with action since we're both flip-floppers. it seems like this is turning out to be a game of calling each other's Bluffs. Even though I know she's having second thoughts based on her anxiety after me announcing such I still think she'll allow me to follow through with the D if I decide to do so, and file and really pull the trigger after I gather all of the necessary documents. Again I know a lot of you are going to 2x4 me here for pushing the Big D. but I legitimately have these trust issues and I don't know if I can resolve them. I'm going to take them to counseling and see if anything comes out of it.

In my own mind I don't see the point in continuing a marriage with someone that is afraid to file for divorce out of their own fear of that they may be me making a mistake, rather than their own fear of they may be losing someone they care about. I really don't feel the need to wait around or have the patience for 2 or 3 years for her to get her life together, the way she wants to which is fine, but I just don't want to be strung along anymore, I've stated to her that I won't be her plan B but she doesn't see it that way. Which is also understandable.

So what do you guys think about the way I'm handling this, and thinking about it? Do you think that I'm starting to get to her with her recent anxiety incident, and she may fold under the pressure in the future as far as realizing that I'm serious, that she has two choices either to work on the M or I initiate divorce? because she has more patience than I do I think she's going to let me walk. I wish things could be different and I wish there was a middle ground we can meet each other in, not only to resolve the trust issues, but a willingness on her part and motivation to work on the marriage even while separated. That I can live with and work towards. Otherwise I don't see the point in continuing this and wasting both of our time.

[IHCLACS]

Ok I read Sandi's article on pieceing which gave me a very full perspective of how two people can possibly get past trust issues, different POV, etc, how to address needs, and not assume how another person is feeling, taking the threat of D off the table, etc. Although i am headed in the opposite direction as of now. There is something else I would like to mention. The other night I mentioned to W. That being ignored, all the silence for the last 6 months, and my efforts to be positive, upbeat, and not complaining. I felt as though I was trying trying trying, going back and forth between giving space, and making friendly neutral gestures and that the silence was killing me. I felt that to me it was a form of mental abuse. Although I feel as though her perspective of past is exaggerated, she feels I have been emotionally abusive. Her POV of not having convo, was that it was just taking space, and declared we are Seperated in IHS. But she never has an issue with inviting me to social affairs, or us hanging out outside the home, going for walks, dinners, movies, drive in, etc. We are both sending mixed signals I think, and have way different POV, although somewhat discussed, not explored. But just validated.

I need to really broaden my thinking of the process from BD to R and not focus so much on everyone's newcomer sich, as maybe its just reinforcing my struggle of current such, and im only seeing the forest for the trees. Perhaps I need to broaden such whether I R or not. At this moment, I still can't get past trust of selling home however. I think need both M counciling and DBT counciling to really open up my mind. Sadly I will be losing my wife's mental health benefits over as a result of her quitting her job over the next couple of months and my benefits stink as far as mental health coverage, which I can't afford. Maybe I can work something out though? I'm probably going to have to drop counciling all together and figure this out on my own without any guidance other then DB and self determination.

I am really at a conflict with myself over our different trust issues, and different reasons.

[dillydaf]

It looks like you're acting impulsively because you're afraid. The fear is awful, isn't it?
I think you need to cultivate patience and more patience and more patience. Doing that is as hard as dealing with the fear, I think.

If you're not 100% certain you want a D you should not be talking about it, certainly not out of a place of fear and impatience. Think ahead a few years and consider whether you will kick yourself for not waiting a little longer.
Trust takes time to work on, it will take both of you but you have to be willing to consider that it's possible, and sometimes you will have to trust based on limited evidence. Don't say 'I can never trust again' because you don't know that, you're talking with your emotions there.

You are still in full on victim mode (I know, I still fall into it every few days I'd say, so I recognise it when I see it!)
Talk to your W about the house sale, share your doubts with her because then at least you'll have made your position clear. Don't bully or threaten her into not selling. You are trying to control her out of fear, it won't work. It [censored] to feel like you have no power, I know. But you do have power here, don't misuse it by threatening D.

You really need to continue with counselling, some counsellors will reduce fees if there is financial hardship. But you clearly have a LOT to work on. Keep up with it, keep reading lots of books and listening to podcasts and watching videos on how to make yourself a better person. It's so so hard but you need to be the best person you can be, for yourself not just for your M.

[IHCLACS]

Thank you Dillydaf from another W's perspective. Although I'm making copies of things to file, and have said that I will file. I know I am going to appear incongruant if I dont. But I will sit on it for now. You are right. I have lot of work to do, and little time put in and resources. I can see how what I'm doing could be a controlling issue. I just truly have no incentive to go any further with the M. Im really not threating D. I actually want to file because I have no incentive left. But I do need more patience and time to see if we can heal correctly as individuals first. I don't think R is possible at this time, based on current changes and past behaviors, and trust. But I do need to give it more time, so i have no regrets.