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I feel terribly hormonal today, it just hit me mid-morning physically and at lunchtime emotionally. Unbearable. Perimenopause is the worst thing ever! Hanging on and waiting for the hormonal wave to pass, I'm not blaming any of this on anything R related.

One observation I have today is that dh is getting involved much more in the minutiae (sp?) of the kids' lives. Interesting. I make sure I keep him up to date on even little things, he seems interested instead of dismissive as he used to be. Feels like he's trying to be a better dad as well as husband, pity ds2 isn't that keen on him right now! Then again, he's 14 so not that interested in any of his family mostly smile

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That is really positive. I'm dealing with all of that sort of stuff on my own - and I didn't before - for all his flaws and faults H was pretty good at keeping on top of the domestic admin and the bits and pieces of the kids' lives. When he left the house, I just became the default for all of that, despite the fact I've got a pretty full on job myself and am dealing with the emotional needs of the child he's opted not to bother with. I do feel resentment about that. I am really glad it isn't that way for you and that you're getting that kind of support. And I am glad mine is not the only 14 y/o who is a bit self absorbed... very reassuring.

I hope your hormones feel better soon. Is there anything you've done before that you know helps in times like this? Running? Sleep?

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I've always done every tiny bit of child-related admin, every single doctor/dentist/orthodontist/sports fixture/parent-teacher/school assembly/school shoe fitting/PE kit finding/form filling/insert random endless child stuff here. So this is new, even him coming to ds2's performance last month, and promising to come to his dance thing next month, very new. And we were just texting about what documents ds1 might need for his interview tomorrow, which dh is taking him to. Typical, 17 years of admin and he finally steps in just when it's nearly over smile It is hugely time-consuming, I'm kind of used to it now but it's hard to juggle when you're busy and yet another form needs printing out and filling in and nagging to get to the school office before the deadline!

Exercise helps a bit but really I just have to wait for it to pass. I told dh this morning how rotten I was feeling physically and he was sympathetic. I might warn him that I might be emotional tomorrow as a result and to just give me a hug and reassurance.

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That sounds like a good idea, and perhaps builds on the work you were doing with your IC about asking for what you need in ways that aren't likely to scare H.

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Yes, and so far he's been responsive when I've asked for what I need. I wish there was some way of broaching what I can do for him when he needs something, rather than fumbling round in the dark. In a way having physical touch as a LL is easy, a quick hug and I'm sorted for ages. Acts of service are more onerous particularly when you don't know if they'll be seen as interfering...
Anyway, I'm looking forward to spending proper time with him today if he's staying till early evening. I feel less hormonal today luckily because yesterday was horrible.

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update: we didn't get to go for our normal Saturday morning walk because ds1's job interview went on for ages and dh took him there. We went to the pub for lunch with the kids and played cards and that was a lot of fun. Then we went for a walk by ourselves round one of our usual places, that was fine though dh seemed tired and grumpy and a bit snappy. It was all just like before he left, very strange really. Sometimes I think what is the point of all this pain and upheaval just for him to see us all slightly less and not share a house at night. It's like it was being married before only with more distance and no sex. Don't get me wrong, I enjoy spending time with dh but I have plenty of friends and if he wasn't about I would just get more and get out and GAL a lot more. At the moment he just gets in the way of that.

I feel a bit despondent. I don't want a semi-detached marriage. I want an intimate, close marriage, and it feels like that is such a long way away when dh won't discuss anything vaguely personal, won't discuss summer holiday plans or future plans. He's still keeping me at arm's length and I've had enough of it. I think I'm giving him till May and if things don't move more in the right direction by then I will start pushing it, because if things aren't better by then maybe he's not capable of committing to me and I'd be better off without him.

Anyway, I'm off to do more work, my deadline next week is looming and I'm off for the morning running with friends tomorrow.

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Hi Dilly

I'm not surprised you feel despondent. I know you've noticed that there are positive changes that your H has been making, but they've been slow, and he's still uncommunicative and it seems, wanting to have everything his own way. Hi refusing to let you into his flat - even after six months - suggests he's still in full on protective mode and isn't wiling to take the risk to get even the tiniest bit closer. I suppose you could press him for more time together and to get into MC or something, but if he only did it out of fear of losing you or as a response to pressure, then those aren't heartfelt changes that are likely to stick.

I know you said earlier that sometimes you felt that H's work wasn't compatible with marriage. Or at least, the type of marriage that you want. Is his work and the way he goes about it likely to change at any point?

Is it fear that holds you back from putting all this on the table with him? When you decided you wanted him to hug you properly and you were prepared to go NC if he wasn't able to meet that need, did you tell him that, or wasn't it necessary?

You mentioned his fear of losing you, or of being abandoned. I wonder if - either soon, or in May, the time is coming for you to step back. Not to abandon him, but to let him experience the reality of a life where he chooses to put all his energy into work and none into his emotional connections with his wife and - it seems - his children. I guess it would be frightening to try that out, but if you did, he'd have to know what his life would look and feel like if he carries on the way he is doing, and that might help both of you get to the point where you're able to make clearer decisions?

I understand your frustrations. I'm in a similar place to you though there's plenty more work I want to do for myself and on myself before I am ready to make a decision about moving on. I know I want to be married and have a partner who I can support and who wants to support and be close to me. At the moment that isn't possible because of who I am and who he is. When I feel it is possible for me, I will look again. If it's still not possible with him, then i think I will have to move on - as much as it will hurt - because I've already spent a long time being lonely in my marriage and I don't plan to sign up for years of the same while being married only on paper.

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Yes, there have been positive changes, definitely. But although those have caused more warmth between us he still feels very protected. I don't know whether maybe I need to let my guard down first a bit maybe so he can reciprocate. I am scared probably, yes. And I agree that pressuring might not help. Though the changes I've asked for he has stepped up and given me (I didn't need to threaten to go NC to get the hugs, and he does give me proper hugs most times we say goodbye now).

I think in April once his very busy time is over and we've had some time away on holiday for a few days I might ask if we could meet up more often, or have him stay overnight more. I don't think there's much point before then because he's very stressed and tired and maybe time alone is the only way he can cope with work. His job: he keeps talking about only being there a couple more years by which time he has enough money to retire (assuming he stays married!) I would probably be ok with him living in his flat for a couple of years if I could visit him regularly and he could come home at weekends, if I knew it was relatively short term. I can't ask him to give up his job, he has to come to terms with doing something else by himself, I can see that's hard for him.

I think I'll wait for him to be less stressed in April, then broach the subject of spending more time together, and if he refuses or seems reluctant then in May I will go NC to show him what actually being divorced is like. I don't think he'd like it...

I think both of us are longing for some intimacy but we don't know how to get there right now or how get there from here. I don't want to be just friends. Something to talk to my IC about...

I had a fun morning out with my friends today, lots of laughter and chat. Dh went cycling with a colleague and rang me on his drive back to ask how my race went, which was nice.

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If you were going to let your guard down, what would that look like in this context? And what are your fears, specifically?

I wonder if just thinking that through and considering your options might help you here?

And thinking about a list of specific changes you want to see in the short term - by July, let's say? Not as an ultimatum 'if we don't start up a sexual relationship again I am divorcing you' but just ways you can see that things are moving in the right direction.

It's strange he is thinking about his financial plans for retirement as if he's not going to get divorced. He doesn't seem to have much fear of losing you. Maybe he needs to start feeling that fear.

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Letting my guard down: I don't know really. Especially as R talks are kind of out of the equation! I need to discuss this with my IC.

My fears: being abandoned (though that has always happened). Fear of him actually deciding he wants to leave for good. Fear of being in a friendship sort of marriage without intimacy (either emotional or sexual).

Specific changes: spending more time together, going on holiday together, having sex. Those would be good for starters, and wouldn't even require him moving back in. Maybe at some stage I need to say 'I would really like it if we could meet up more often and have you stay over once a week, but I still want to respect your need for space. How can we compromise on seeing each other more but still let you cope with work?'

And yes the retirement thing is very strange. He doesn't discuss the future at all except for a cycling weekend he's doing in May with colleagues and my long weekend I'm doing with friends in October, yet he talks about not being at work in a few years time. Maybe he figures that if we get divorced then he'll have to work at least another extra 5 years but he would be so lonely that he'd need to work anyway. I don't know, it's very odd. You might be right he's not afraid of losing me, but I don't want to trigger his fear of abandonment right now because it could result in him making a hasty decision to push me away forever. But he's also quite a decisive person who hates not planning for the future, so this limbo must be really hard for him!

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I share your fears. Fear of being stuck in a relationship that is cold and empty, and fear of being left. It's a hard place to be. Perhaps our H's are in similar places.

Have you ever tried writing him a letter? Perhaps the R conversation won't go so well, but maybe if you are able to lay out what you want that would help you to be vulnerable and give him the space and privacy to process it so he won't over-react in the moment.

Do you have small steps on the way to those specific changes? So sex - that feels like a big hurdle. But perhaps if you saw him initiating physical contact, or wanting to sleep over, or reintroducing kissing - that might be stages on the way?

Does he worry about money? Did he grow up poor? He seems so motivated in work that he doesn't really seem to enjoy - and I find that very strange. Does he understand why he's so compelled by his work?

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Yes, I think you're right, our husbands also don't want to be in a cold relationship or to be alone. Nobody really does! I feel like this separation was dh's last ditch effort to get my attention, to tell me how miserable he was before (but without telling me) and to have a better marriage.

I wrote him lots of letters at the start, but they were all too over emotional. When I've asked for things it has tended to be via text. Maybe because it's hard to do that stuff in person. I feel like sometimes we're warmer to each other via text, I'm not sure that's healthy really. But yes, maybe a letter might work now I'm calmer.

You're right, sex is a big hurdle, and maybe you're right about the small steps. I feel like he feels if we have sex it'll be because it's all back on, and he's not willing to go there yet. A snog would be great but I feel like he has to initiate that or at least give the physical signals that he'd welcome it. Hmm. There isn't much I can do about that, I can't force him to snog me unfortunately!

He grew up not poor, but in a family where his dad lost a decent job when dh was young. Then his mum was the main breadwinner but she spent all the money on the garden and on herself (she bought expensive clothes while the kids had handmedowns, and she had a Porsche with no proper back seats despite having a family of 5!) So he's always been cautious with money. The work: it feeds his ego for sure. He enjoys working with clever people. He likes to feel like a good boss doing his best for his people. I also don't feel like it aligns with his values really though, he's mostly making other people and himself money. But he doesn't know what else he could do with his life, there might even be too many possible options in a way. He's also used to working relentlessly for decades and I think he might be terrified of being bored and without purpose if he retires.

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What do you think would happen if you did drop the rope? Not start to divorce him, but just act as if you were spilt up and this was gone, and let him come to you. How do you imagine he'd react? Is your fear of his reaction something that factors into your decision about how long you're willing to wait for?

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I think he would panic. And then react either of 2 ways: start to pursue me out of fear, or run away to protect himself.
I'm not sure either of those would be healthy for either of us. And yes that does affect how long I'm willing to wait.
I think at the moment we are both trying to build a safe space and make changes in ourselves. I can't pursue too much or he withdraws, but given I've distanced for most of our relationship I do need to be much warmer towards him and am trying to do that without scaring him off. Dropping the rope would feel like a 180 in a bad way for him perhaps, like 'see? I knew she was always going to abandon me!' even though the main reason would be because he abandoned ME...

I don't know. Our next date (another run and pub dinner) is tomorrow night so I'll see how that goes. I know he's very tired and stressed with work until the end of the month though so I will keep my expectations low. When he's been busy at work has been when I've pursued him the most in the past and that has never gone well because he can't meet my needs when he's in this stage and adding fuel to the fire of his anxiety has really messed things up before. So I'll remind myself to be patient a few more weeks and also remind myself of the positive steps he's made towards me. They'll have to do for now. He's probably doing the best he can for now.

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I think in some ways getting part of what you want puts you in a trickier position than getting none of what you want. If he'd just ghosted you, you'd have divorced him by now, presumably. But because there's this tiny trickle of warmth and the half-indication of something more, or at least, something more hasn't been explicitly taken off the table, then you are still hanging in there. I feel I'm in precisely the same situation, as H is saying very clearly he wants to work on the marriage, just not now. I think there's such a risk we end up accepting crumbs and being resentful and miserable about it. But yes - these things take a lot of time, and a few more weeks won't make a difference, and it is important for both of you to feel safe. I guess as long as we both feel there's some progress being made, in some way, then it is worth it.

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Well at least your husband IS saying he wants to work on the marriage. Mine has never said that.

I have been overwhelmed with an hormonal wave this morning. I keep dashing to the bathroom to have a sob (at least I'm at home). I'm in physical and emotional pain and all I want is a hug. I feel so much like ringing dh and telling him I'm done, finished with this. He can't provide me with the tiniest comfort.

Must stay strong. Someone talk me off this ledge please.

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Oh Dilly. I know just where you are and it stinks. It really stinks. It's horrible.

When it is the right time for you to be done with this, you will know. And you're not trapped - you can move on whenever you are ready to, and wait until you're at that point, doing what you're already doing for yourself.

Do you have your list of things to do when in extremis? Your 4-8-5 breathing?

If sugar helps, have some jam on toast. You're allowed to have whatever comfort you can.

If I was there I'd hug you.

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thank you, I ended up crying down the phone at dh after I had an anxiety attack (I don't suffer from anxiety and that was scary). I guess that's one way of showing vulnerability lol. I went to an aerobics class and sniffled through that, I"m supposed to be going for a run with a friend but I'm not sure, she's a good friend so I probably will go. I feel dreadful. But this will pass. It's quite hard to focus on work feeling like this...
I will try a meditation podcast, exercise doesn't seem to have helped much.

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The anxiety and panic is so so so difficult. And you want support and care, but there's also the fear that exposing that level of need to someone who is struggling themselves will push them away. I get it.

It will pass. And you will be okay, whatever happens.

Was your DH kind to you?

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If the weekly dates are having a bad effect on you, it is okay to change them. If every week you are getting your hopes up, getting anxious, then having to deal with disappointment afterwards, maybe there needs to be a change or a pause on them. Not to manipulate your H into giving you more than he has to offer, but to protect yourself and get yourself on a more even keel. You don't have to decide anything about this today.

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I don't think this is related to the dates (though earlier on the dates did really unsettle me for days afterwards). I don't know where this morning's stuff came from, it just appeared from nowhere about 8am and knocked me sideways, it was a wave which came over me. I feel a bit calmer now, just exhausted. I won't make any hasty decisions...
Yes, he was kind to me. I just really wanted him there in person and I told him that.

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Maybe that's the vulnerability that you were thinking about. Asking for something you really needed when you needed it. You can leave it with him, I guess, and care for yourself as much as you can.

I get those waves too. They are so so so hard to deal with. You're doing okay.

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He texted and said he can get away from work early tomorrow and meet me an hour earlier. I need him today though, tomorrow I might be fine but right now I'm sad and tired. I might appreciate the effort another time but it's all still just crumbs. I'm not going to reply right now.
The rest of my day was ok, I went for a run with a friend as well as my aerobics class. Back to work now and then taking ds2 to his after school activity and getting more work done there. It's hard to focus when you feel so terrible, but I'm determined to make this Thursday deadline even if it's Thursday evening.

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That's good, Dilly. Perhaps instead of looking at it as crumbs, you could see it as a possible change? You let him see you very vulnerable and asked him for help. And he thought about it and offered you what he could. He isn't running away. Are you distancing, by not replying?

Good luck with your deadline. I have a couple myself and though I am feeling okay today, I am behind too and finding it difficult to focus. I hate obsessing about my marriage, but my mind seems to go there before it goes anywhere else.

Edited to add: and notice this - he is leaving work to come and spend time with you. That sounds pretty huge to me. I guess you don't want to overwhelm him, but it sounds like he is putting you before his need to work and that's a step forward.

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Thank you, yes you're right about me both distancing by not replying and about him offering an olive branch
I'll text him to say I'm ok. Not sure about tomorrow night, if I'm as fragile as today I just won't be able to do it but an early night might sort me out. I'm just so sick of feeling abandoned and alone.

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I hear you. I get it. And you know, you told him you needed him, and he arranged to come. And it isn't 100% of what you want, but it might be a start. And if it isn't a start, you're no worse off than you are today and you're still free to make the decisions you need to make to protect yourself and move forward if you need to.

I hope you get some good sleep. I'm feeling a bit sad tonight myself but am trying to remind myself of the baby steps I am seeing H take and the movements forward I am making for myself. I'm exhausted but I am doing my best and so are you. And it will be April and your holiday before you know it.

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Thank you, and I hope you slept well yourself. I went to bed at 8 and just got up at 7, I woke up quite a lot of times with cramps though so I still feel like a giant has sat on me. Going to tackle this work mountain before I go and swim with a friend who can't run right now. I will go tonight, might ask dh to run even slower than last time though!

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Taking it easy sounds like a really good plan. I am tackling my own work mountain. I slept terribly last night but am in reasonably good spirits today and have massive and lovely GAL plans for the weekend which means getting a lot of tasks off my desk this week, so no time to mope about brooding. Got my goodnight text last night and sent encouragement this morning. Seems we're into a bit of a routine with that, which might be one way of inching towards building trust. Who knows? I wish you well for this evening.

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lovely GAL plans sound great smile Good luck being productive! I haven't done as much as I needed to yesterday or today due to this hormonal stuff, but I finally feel over the worst of it. I went for a lovely swim and got some massive hugs from a good friend. Then I went for a run with dh and we had dinner at the pub. It was ok, he was quite snappy at me during the run about things like me interrupting him (don't think I did too badly) but I think he'd had a difficult day at work with people he doesn't like so I didn't take it too personally. He finished up his drink and pretty much shooed me towards the train, which I tried hard to again not take personally, but he did text to check I got home ok.
We were arranging stuff for the weekend, he said he'd take the kids to their activity when I said I might get away for half the weekend before going back for ds2's match on Sunday. I pointed out that then I wouldn't get to see him at all over the weekend and then he suggested a walk but the logistics didn't really work. So then he suggested breakfast on Friday morning since I'm going to be in town anyway. So that was good. I feel partly relieved that he's not rushing to stay over at home when I'm away but also sad that he won't spend too much time at home. It's not like it's just me he's avoiding, it's all of us.

I feel frustrated that he's so shut down. I'm sick of talking about the weather and surface things and his job. I don't know how we get past this, or if. Maybe since he's been pretty good about responding to my requests so far I might see how I could phrase trying to get some more emotional intimacy in a way he might feel comfortable with. I don't know. Maybe I just need to wait till April and be more patient. Anyway, another early night beckons since I'm still not back to normal.

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Gosh that sounds hard - really hard. I feel a bit angry on your behalf reading it. Do you think he was cooler than usual because he was scared about your emotions? It sounds like he was prickly.

Are there other things you can do for yourself with regards to the hormones? I suppose you'll already have been to the doctor, etc. Not to dose yourself up with drugs so you're tolerable company for DH - I don't mean that - but just so your head and emotions are as level as they can be so you can make clear decisions for yourself.

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Well, I just sent him an email asking for some honesty and to let me in. It was longer than that but that was the gist. It might have been completely the wrong thing to do, I'm not sure I care if it was TBH. It was calm and open and expressed as positively as I could make it, definitely no threats of abandonment just a desire to take care of him. We'll see what happens. I can't make him respond to it, I can't control him. Maybe it was too much, I don't know. I do know that things can't continue like this, I need at least some hope or if after 7 months he runs away from an email asking for honesty then maybe it will never work out and I'm better off cutting my losses.

The hormones: I saw the family planning nurse recently for a new prescription. I changed pills about 3 or 4 years ago because I was getting hormonal symptoms and that really helped. Then after BD my hormonal symptoms got a lot, lot worse, so I'm assuming it's partly me getting older and towards menopause and partly extreme stress and my body reacting to that. I told the nurse about my PMT and she recommended a few things. Last month was actually a bit better, this month has been the worst ever. So I'll give it a few more months before I see the doctor and see if things improve again. I do exercise a lot, eat well and try to take care of myself as much as possible so from a lifestyle perspective I do as much as I can. It really [censored].

Right, I need to get this work mountain out of the way for tomorrow's deadline.

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Update: he read the email and then a few minutes later he texted 'see you on Friday'. Lol. Then we had a few back and forths about the weekend, he said he had to work a chunk of Sunday (would have been good for him to have told me that last night).

No mention of the email, but I wouldn't expect there to be. I'll let it sink in and have him reflect on it. I did say in the email how I'd noticed all the changes he'd made and that this was impressive given it's his busy and stressful time of year and when the winter has been so gloomy.

So, probably as good as I could expect right now. I can't force him to open up to me. I can't force him to do anything. But I feel better for telling him that I want to get to know him better, and that it's hard for me too to let down my defences. I won't push it any more, now I just need to be patient and wait for him to get over this work stuff.
*sits on hands*

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Ok, so thoughts on this?

We are supposed to be meeting for breakfast Friday morning before he goes to work. However I have 2 events that day so I'll still be around in the evening before heading off to our holiday place. Should I suggest a drink in the evening instead of breakfast? I could suggest it as an option but tell him not to bother if he thinks he will be tired and stressed after work. He usually gets ds1 to come up to see him and they go for a quick dinner and then dh goes to bed early on Friday nights. But because I will be away ds1 is staying at home, so dh will be alone anyway.

Ugh, maybe I'm overthinking it. I suspect he will say no anyway. But if he''s tired and grumpy Friday evening he will be Friday morning too, plus he'll be clockwatching to get away to work. Not sure that will put me in a good place. Friday evening I will have a train to catch anyway so it will be short.

I've also been thinking and something I will be asking for in April is to see his flat. My parents are over visiting at the end of April and although they will mostly be travelling and not staying with us for more than a night or two, the subject of dh's flat will come up somehow. And if they ask me what it's like I just can't lie or evade that. I will have to frame it as 'if you don't let me see your flat then I will have to tell my parents about you moving out, and I don't want them to hate you'. And I will also have to think about how to handle them wanting to see it too or to ask to stay there. Hmm. Lots to think about. I REALLY thought all this would be sorted by April but here we are with it nearly here and we are still stuck in this awful limbo.

Oh well, things can change.

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I texted him with the alternative and he said he didn't mind but would probably prefer breakfast. That's ok with me, I might even go for a drink with this writing group after our event if any of them want to. Let him imagine me with a whole bunch of clever writing type men, lol smile

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It sounds like April is going to bring things to a head with you. You want him to be honest with you, you want to know how best to be honest with your parents. Those really aren't unreasonable things at all. I would be careful not to phrase the thing about your parents and his flat as a threat - it might land that way to someone very scared or fragile - but more as an invitation. 'I'd like to know what your preferences are on how we handle things with my parents. They're going to ask me about your flat. About why I haven't seen it. I've no idea what you tell them.' Something like that?

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Good point about the threat, thank you. I'll have to think carefully about how I phrase it. And he thinks he IS being honest with me by saying he's still confused and might not want to be married. Well, he clearly is confused, that's true, but I disagree with him not wanting to be married. Well, I think judging by his behaviour rather than his words.

He's said a few times when I told him how much I hate lying to/evading my parents that I should tell them to 'get their support'. But I don't think he's considered the impact that will have on what they think of him, and he has a very fragile ego. My mum would completely lose it. And I don't want her support, I have my friends and my IC for that. You can see where the whole distancing thing comes from, lol. So I would prefer they didn't know until this thing resolves one way or the other. They might not even see him, I told them I might go and visit them when they're travelling round Wales and Scotland, and they will want to see the kids a few times but I probably could just pretend everything is ok or say that dh is having real problems coping with work and the commute (both true) and leave out that I don't stay over at his flat. I really would prefer not to have to actively lie to them though, and the kids will let drop about the flat at the least. And then there's a whole new can of worms...

I think I will discuss this with my IC and also leave it till a while into April. No massive rush, I might not even need to discuss it till May.

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I can see the problem. if you were together, you'd collaborate on making many of your decisions, or at least you'd take what he wanted into account when you made your own decision. If you were apart, you'd make your decisions on your own in your own and the children's best interests. But you're in this limbo, and there's a decision to be made and he either won't or can't collaborate with you on making it, and you're not able to take what he wants into account because it isn't clear what that is.

If you don't need to get support from your parents, then it doesn't seem like there's any benefit to you to sharing this with them. And yes, it sounds like you don't need to decide right now. Though I sense your patience with his 'I don't know' is coming to a close.

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It certainly is! I suppose it's just thinking ahead to the future always makes me impatient, which is funny because he's always been the future obsessed one and I've been the one who has winged things and done things last minute...

Ah well, I feel much better today, less like I got hit by a physical and emotional bus than the last 2 days. I've got lots of work done and a huge amount left to do tomorrow too so I will just focus on that. We've been texting about random kid stuff like how many pancakes ds2 just ate.

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That all sounds positive. Have you decided whether or not you are going to bring up your email when you see him next? I guess you've got to balance between giving him space and time to digest, which was your intention in putting it in writing in the first place, and also not allowing him to evade or ignore it. If he's going to refuse to engage, he'd better do it to your face, right?

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I'm not going to push it till April. I've told him what I need, he can think about it and if he can meet that need he will, and if he's overwhelmed at work then he might not be able to. Also, I need to discuss it with my IC I think. I do feel that there's a lot of tiptoeing I need to do in the next week or so while he finishes up a really busy time at work. From past experience, he is too stressed to be approachable this time of year. I was reading some old messages from friends actually and it is startling how very seasonal his terrible behaviour has been..Though this year is the first Easter I haven't gone away with at least one kid and left him and triggered his abandonment issues. At least this time he will come too for some of it.

And he is the master of refusing to engage!

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Just journalling to remind myself of how much progress dh has made (I've been too negative this week and that's been more me than him really). This morning he texted me to ask how I was going on my big deadline. This is all a 180 on how he used to behave (like my work was a massive inconvenience to him and his work was soooo much more important). So, yes, progress. It was nice to have a few lighthearted texts between us yesterday too. That would never have happened before all this either, I need to acknowledge how hard he's trying (I am also trying, I find it hard to remember stuff about his job and I'm trying hard to do that too if he has a talk to give or an important meeting).

IC today, hope it's useful. I always have sooo much to say because every week is packed with emotional incident. No wonder I'm permanently knackered!

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It's exhausting, isn't it? I am not doing so well on my getting outside and getting exersise 180 but I am going to try today because my mind whirls and whirls and I am sure my thinking things over in the small hours is of no use to me or anyone else.

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Ugh, well I came away from IC feeling more confused than I went in. We talked a bit about wanting to run away and not doing so. We talked about Monday and about the email I sent dh. 'Did he respond?' said my IC. 'What do you think?' I answered, and we both laughed. It's not really funny though is it?

Now I have something stuck in my head which I wish wasn't there. I told my IC how dh offered to meet me early but then shooed me away also an hour early. I said that I don't want my parents to know because they'll assume dh is having an affair. My IC said that he was suspicious about dh having an affair too, and why was dh in such a hurry to leave on Tuesday evening. I said I thought it was because he'd had such a tough day at work that he needed some alone time. I have spent such long time now trying to trust that dh isn't having an affair, and now the thought is stuck in my head again.

Our bank account is joint, and I can't find anything suspicious in there (I checked a lot in the early days). Dh has another card which is accessed via an app and there's nothing on there either, the only weird thing I can see is maybe some tickets to an event but that might be something he's arranged with friends and not told me about yet. He has an Amex card which I have paid in the past and which he usually sticks work stuff on I think, actually recently there's been something funny with that because he said it was in credit and he usually emails me the statement so I can pay but he hasn't done so this month. I texted him asking if I'd paid that. He has another phone which he said he bought because his old phone broke. I bought him a new phone a few months ago but he still has a regular bill come out on another credit card towards that phone, but it might be that he hasn't cancelled it (he's terrible at cancelling anything, so that would be typical rather than not). I was terribly suspicious when he bought the new phone, but he might not even have it, I don't know. All things considered it's not strong evidence, and the kids have been to his flat so it seems unlikely there would be any evidence there.

I don't know, I need to trust him on this I think. It was just upsetting, is all. And I feel like it's distracting from the real issues if it's just a suspicion.

Right, back to work.

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Except I just went and checked our statements again and the Amex bill was paid a few days ago. Hmm. He travels a bit for work and puts plenty of meals on expenses, I'm not sure I would be able to spot anything suspicious anyway though.
I could really do without this. It's taken me a lot of effort to trust him. The one thing I've always believed is that he's not a liar. If that's not true then I wouldn't know where I was.

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He rang me after I texted him asking if the Amex bill had been paid and he said he'd been able to pay it via the app on his phone. Which is fair enough, and actually a lot easier than him accessing and then emailing me the statement each month I suppose. Except the phone line was really bad so I asked him where he was and he said at work. He texted and said how bad the line was and was I ok for breakfast tomorrow. I said his phone is usually fine there, he said the signal was poor today. I asked did he have his other phone still and maybe that gets a better signal. Then he rang me from his office phone and asked if I was ok, I was a bit short with him and he asked why and I said I have this big deadline today and rang off after saying I'll see him for breakfast.

I don't know, it's so hard not to be suspicious. But then again I can't trust him anyway because he's not being open with me about anything. I think I will raise this tomorrow.

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I sent him a text about his other phone and it ended up with him ringing me and us having an R talk. Ugh. He's 'still not sure if he wants to be married or not'. I really, really, really hate R talks. I tried validating as much as I could. Actually I was good, I didn't get too upset, I was quite calm about it all. I was properly open and vulnerable and said it's really hard for me to be open with him but it might be easier if he was a bit more open with me too. And he said he didn't know if he could do that. Well derr. I said maybe he could start small with things like telling me he was exhausted and needed to go to bed early on Tuesday night instead of me having to guess it and not interpret it as rejection. And he said he didn't want things going back to how they were before and I said I didn't want that either. And I said that I didn't want him back right now anyway (true), but that if we both kept changing and improving then maybe there would be hope for the future. He sounded unconvinced.

I'm not sure I handled that as well as I could, I guess I've just been hoping things were further along than they were. I need to remember actions not words. Though if we're talking actions then really all he might be doing is his 'duty' in seeing me. But then he still seems desperate not to lose me. And he said how much he misses the kids and I said I felt sad that he's missing out on them but I knew his job took a lot out of him and the commute was killing him so at least his flat helps with that. I did NOT say 'YOU ARE CHOOSING YOUR JOB OVER YOUR FAMILY' so I'm proud of myself for that. It never helps! If anything it makes him cling to his job more stubbornly, and I can't make him give it up, even if it's killing him and his relationships. And then I said I got insecure after my IC said that, and that I've been working hard at trusting him, and I do trust him, but it's very hard to trust someone who isn't even a tiny bit open with you. And I said lots of times that I wasn't pushing him at all, and that I understood how difficult this all is for him, so that was validate-y.

Argh. What.A.Mess. There was a bunch of stuff I missed in there too, it might come back to me later.

So much for being patient.
So much for getting on with my work! Right, I must do that now.

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That sounds so incredibly difficult. And I know from experience how incredibly hard it is to trust someone who isn't open and honest with you and doesn't make the effort to communicate fully.

I know you don't want to push things right now. And I know you notice small changes. And I know that this could just as easily be said about my situation as it could be about yours.

But I do think that your H has really no incentive to consider what he wants and what he is willing to give and what he's willing to change. He wants to put himself first, have the kids and plenty of his admin taking care of by a wife who is too afraid to demand anything from him, and he wants to keep his options open.

He may not be able to decide. He may be really uncertain and troubled and exhausted. But he's also got a lot of the benefits of wife-work without really having to expend much energy in your direction. He may be being totally honest in that he doesn't know what he wants - but you know what you want and you know that it isn't on offer from him and hasn't been for a long time.

Perhaps it is time for you to think about going dark and dropping the rope. If he runs to you in fear - which I know you think might happen and I know you dread - you can review how you feel about that much later on.

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It is also possible for the distancer-pursuer dynamic to totally flip in relationships - it is a position, not something intrinsic about who you are. And perhaps he knows that you're there, waiting, ready to work on things if and when he decides he feels like it or has the time or energy. Perhaps he would get around to tackling his abandoning issues and his inability to communicate and his prioritisation of work over family and children if he felt that he was about to lose you.

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Yes, I think you're right. Now is not the right time, but soon, if things don't change, I will have to go dark. It's too exhausting being in this place and having so much hope for so long. I can't live like this indefinitely with pleasant interactions and no physical or emotional intimacy. And a constant feeling of rejection.

One interesting thing he said after I said I felt rejected on Tuesday night that he shoved me towards the station and went off, he said he looked back and I didn't. Now, that to me says a lot about his behaviour this whole time: shove me away and then look after me with fear that I'm abandoning him.

Sigh. Anyway, funnily enough I don't feel that upset, I'm just too tired and actually relieved that I said a bunch of stuff which I wanted to say and we cleared the air a little bit. I hate the whole uncertainty the ILYB and not being able to plan for the future and having felt more hopeful about our relationship than perhaps it warranted, but right now I'm too tired to care too deeply. Back to my work.

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It is so so so so so tiring. And I think he's playing games, a bit. Perhaps out of fear, or uncertainty, or because he wants you to do something but isn't telling you what it is. Or because his abandon issues mean he's just not able to be in an adult relationship and do the work of repair. And it does seem like going dark and letting him experience what 'not being married' might feel like is the only thing you've not tried yet.

I hope you get your work done. I have a thing to do for tomorrow and I am not staying up late to do it tonight because I am exhausted and plan to be fast asleep in less an an hour if I can manage it.

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Yes, you're right. And the doing something but not telling me what it is sounds very familiar, though he did say today that I shouldn't blame myself for this. He is having a genuine crisis I think, he's just made it all about us. Not taking things personally but taking them personally enough to change in a positive way has been a huge thing to me in all of this. I have taken things both too personally and not personally enough for a long time, I see that now.

And maybe he needs to see what life is like without me in it before he realises what he has to lose and does something. I will get there eventually. It's easier when you're feeling strong, not hormonal and like you can cope with anything. I'm not at that place right now (but I was a week ago so I will be again, I felt on top of the world last week).

Good luck with your work, mine continues. It will be slapdash but submitted.

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Hi Dilly


Originally Posted by dillydaf
Yes, I think you're right. Now is not the right time, but soon, if things don't change, I will have to go dark. It's too exhausting being in this place and having so much hope for so long. I can't live like this indefinitely with pleasant interactions and no physical or emotional intimacy. And a constant feeling of rejection.


I find that the pleasant interactions themselves feel like a rejection. I want to yell "I am your W FFS, I am not the person at the shop selling you X, we shared a bed for 15 years, can we talk about something real". But I can't. Because he is not ready. I always try and think of why he is doing it - because he too, doesn't know how to be around me. So he keeps it shallow. He keeps it safe. The trick is to just learn to think of them like the person serving me at the shop.

Going dark gives you space to reflect away from the turbulence of his emotions and his behavior. It also gives him an opportunity to miss you. If the interactions are too much. If you find yourself constantly dissecting, analyzing and doubting yourself, then perhaps going dark is what you need. If you are not at the whims of his benaviour and his mood, then I would just ease up a bit. Plan more things without him. Start limiting your interactions but keep those interactions you have pleasant. Don't suggest doing things together, but don't say no if he initiates (unless you already have plans, in which case, don't change your plans).

Originally Posted by dillydaf
One interesting thing he said after I said I felt rejected on Tuesday night that he shoved me towards the station and went off, he said he looked back and I didn't. Now, that to me says a lot about his behaviour this whole time: shove me away and then look after me with fear that I'm abandoning him.


I would ask myself "why" would he tell you this. To me it is temp checking. He saw you felt rejected and was worried he'd gone too far. After I discovered my H was dating, he was around every day for a week. He was overly friendly - he cleaned my car, he painted a wall, he rang me up to remind me about needing to do my MOT and then offered to take the car to the garage for me. On one of those days we had an R conversation which escalated (I escalated) to talking about formalizing the separation. Afterwards, with me in tears, he asked me if I wanted to come to lunch with him and D12.

In any case, understanding the motivations behind an action does not change the action itself. It just gives you more insight into it. Carry on doing you and let him do him.


W40 (me), H40
M14, Together 16
D12, D9

BD Oct 17
Moved out Mar 18

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Thank you FS, that was helpful. I think you're right, I'm suddenly obsessing about what he's up to whereas before I would just assume he was getting on with work and stuff and I wasn't worried too much. Maybe I do need to go dark for my own benefit. I certainly need to stop pursuing. I texted him earlier asking what he was up to tonight. About half an hour later he rang and said he'd had a bottle of wine with some work colleagues. Now I'm suspicious of that. How did it take him an hour to get back to his flat?

I feel like I was in a really good place at last in the last fortnight, like I would be OK no matter what. This week has been utterly horrific. I want to climb out of this hole and back into being OK no matter what. I will stop being a victim. I will be strong and get on with my life. I have 2 very nice GAL activities planned for tomorrow which are both productive and feed my soul. I kind of wish I hadn't agreed to meet dh for breakfast tomorrow now, I will have to get up super early to meet him. I've agreed multiple times so I won't go back on my word, but I won't be super friendly tomorrow. I'll be too tired for starters.

I'm moving towards going dark, for sure. I'm not sure I'm content with crumbs and tiny changes when he still tells me he's not sure he wants to be married. I know that patience is key to all this, but I'm really not sure I'm prepared to wait for years with no physical affection. My kids are teens, if this had happened when they were still affectionate then maybe, but not now. Life is too short. I don't want to be alone for years on end.

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You're having a bad week, and the IC's suggestion about an affair might not have helped. But it sounds like the week has been horrible at least in part because of facing up to the reality of the changes he hasn't yet made, as well as concentrating on the small ones he has. I think you can be patient while going dark, and you don't have to have an R talk or warn him about going dark. You don't even need to ignore him - you can respond, as Fly Solo says, but be unavailable for future plans and not initiate any more of your own. I don't think it would take more than a few weeks of that before he was pretty clear in his own mind and ready to express to you what he wanted.

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Hi Dilly,

Dropping in to say hi and been reading your posts. Saw you were having a rough week. Sorry to hear about that.

30 years together? That is a long time. I've been with my W for 25 together. Things changed more noticeably after her father passed away 2 years ago and she got her stupid tat. I've seen several posts about people getting new tattoos later on in life, getting a new look etc.

Get out and GAL for yourself. Try not to focus on anything about your H, his flat, what he's doing etc. That'll cause you to spin and feel sick.

As for not being able to wait years for physical affection, I'm on 7 months and it feels like it was yesterday that she BD me. I can't tell time, that's how I truly feel. So I don't know how much longer I can or cant go. I do know when I hit another month It gets rough. The 6 month mark was really rough for me so I don't like dates, calendars, none of it.

You're right, life is too short, so go now and live a little. Get away from the mess and have some fun. Here's to the weekend.


H 49 , W 47
T 23, M 17
S11, S5
BD: 7/18
IHS: 7/18 - 3/19
Physically Separated: 3/19-4/19
Piecing: 4/19 - Current

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I wonder if it would help, Dilly, to take a bit of time away from talking about your marriage and H in your IC and talk about the changes and developments you want to make for yourself? I know you're concentrating on that a lot - and that you have lots of GAL and are examining your tendencies to distance. I am not sure, given that your H is where he is, that you can resolve those distancing habits in a relationship with him. That might be something to do in piecing, but until he can say, 'yes, I want to be married and I want to make changes so we can be happy in a marriage together' then you can't develop as his wife. Maybe you can just develop as Dilly, and work on not-distancing with a friend, and your children, and your family? Perhaps talking to your parents honestly and without blaming H about what is going on and seeing if you can enjoy some of their emotional support would be a good positive change for you. You can't control what they'd think of H and you can't be responsible for that, or the effect that has on how they relate to each other in the future. But you can work on your distancing tendencies in relationships where the other person wants to know more of you. If not your parents, then other people? Who would like to see more of your heart?

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Yes I've been thinking about that Alison. I'm actually incredibly open with my good friends, and I have a bunch of them who I have told everything to. So I think it's that I have to be able to see people regularly before I can open up, and my parents live a long way away and we don't see each other much. Ditto my best friend, but I have other friends I'm extremely honest with.
Hi Adam, thanks for dropping by. 7 months feels like forever but luckily time is speeding up!

I have been GAL with style today, had a really amazing morning and doing stacks of new stuff and meeting new people. Very inspiring.

I did meet dh for breakfast, we had a nice warm time and I walked him to the station. When we got there we gazed at each other and he asked me if I was ok and gave me a big hug and a kiss on the lips (not a snog but that might be the first kiss of any kind I've had in 7 months). I texted him later to say I needed to tell him about a dream I'd had about him last night, it was extraordinary. I might seem dippy with these dreams but they are so full of stuff I can't ignore them!

In this dream it started off with my parents and my neighbour and some stuff about keys. Then it turned to dh and he was avoiding my parents coming. He was packing to go to New York and putting everything in very neat zipped woolen bags in his suitcase. Then I turned round and saw he was wearing lipstick. I suddenly though he's a cross dresser or trans and that's what he's been hiding. Then I went after him and saw he had lots of makeup on almost like a mask. It was like an album cover, with writing on his cheek. I couldn't see it properly so I turned a lamp on his face to see him better. He said 'I don't feel comfortable in my own skin, that's why I prefer this. He said it really sadly. I rubbed his arms, which were bare, but they were skinny like my teen son's. He said 'that makes me feel a bit better'. I felt incredibly sad that he was in such a bad place and I couldn't touch him. And then I saw a cherry on his forehead was falling off so I went to fix it and I realised his mask was made out of ice cream and was melting. Then I woke up and cried. I feel upset even remembering it.

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That's a really sad dream. That fear of what is under his mask and what it is he's hiding from you, and the loneliness of being kept at arm's length, and the fact that you worry he's cut off and lonely under his mask too, and an acknowledgement that it's probably all about him and his problems and not yours, and that as much as you want to fix him or take off his mask, you can't. It is sad. Really sad. And I am glad you had a nice breakfast and got your kiss this morning. Did you tell your H about your dream and if so, how did he respond?

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I didn't tell him, I wanted to but I'd barely slept and had already cried on the train on the way in so thought I'd crumble if I told him this morning. I did text him and say I wanted to tell him about it though. Maybe on Tuesday when I see him next.

I have had the weirdest day, it's been exhausting but exhilarating and I've met so many interesting people from different places. I've had plenty of to and fro texting from dh (he even texted me after we parted this morning to say he hoped I had a good time, 180!) but I've been busy sucking up new information and new experiences and talking to new people and going new places, it's been a great day.

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I am so glad you've had a good day and that your H is coming forward with a bit more contact. Maybe he's been digesting the email you sent him and letting it show in his actions, rather than having a conversation with you about it. You deserve a great day after the hard run you've had recently. Did you get your work handed in on deadline?

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Hi Dilly,

I just read your threads. I am so very sorry you are here. I went through a terrible separation too. It is so painful. Can I ask how long you have been seeing your IC? When did she first bring up the idea of an A? My IC helped me understand right away that men do not just leave their W and kids without OW. Sure, there may be many reasons stated -- MLC, depression, they want time alone, marital discourse, substance issues, etc, etc -- but the reality is that almost all men leave the home to pursue the affair. Many have As and don't leave, but when they leave in this way, it's almost a guarantee.

I have been reading here for almost 5 years and have followed 100s of posters. I agree with your ICs observations. Your own gut instincts are telling you and you feel it. In fact, I cannot think of a case where a W poster suspected something was wrong (we all know in our gut, but we don't want to believe it) and there wasn't OW. Not one person comes to mind. Sometimes it takes months or even years for us to find proof, but eventually, it comes. Then we can say, I always felt something was missing and now it makes sense.

So why does it even matter if he is gone anyhow? For some of us -- like myself -- it is a complete game changer in the way we now handle our interactions. I had to change everything and not allow him to keep me as his plan B. For others -- like DejaVu who has already moved on -- it may not change as much in what she does. She is also not trying to save her M now and he has been wandering and lying for years.

So I want to ask you, if I could provide you with the proof today, that yes he has OW and yes it has been going on for some time now (most likely for some time before he even moved out) then what does that change for you? How would you do things moving forward? Would you still have breakfast, meet at the pub, have a hug or kiss, have family times with the kids, and share your feelings of what you need to work on or where you went wrong, etc, etc? Would you still send the message that you love him, are waiting and are hoping for his return? Does he still get to know he can have you back and that yes you are plan B if she, OW, doesn't work out?

Only each of us can answer these questions for ourselves. I do not suggest you should do things differently. I can only speak to what I know I went through. If I could go back in time to 6 years ago, knowing what I now know about my H's behavior, I would have done things quite different. I cannot do that obviously. So instead I post here in hopes of offering support and helping others that maybe could see things differently. Because I firmly believe that as long as an H knows that his W is at home waiting his return, he is far less likely to leave OW and come back to her.

Blu

Last edited by BluWave; 03/22/19 11:17 PM.

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Hi Blu, thanks for your thoughts. I don't really believe he's having an A, I know that most men do but I don't think he's like most men. I'm not saying he might not have been tempted or even had some inappropriate conversations with someone else, but I don't think he's seeing someone else on a regular basis. I could be wrong, I know. If anything, it's work which is his mistress and [censored] all his time and emotional energy from him. My IC: I've been seeing him since about November last year. He was right to point out that dh's rushing me off last week was suspicious, and maybe now that I've told dh he will be more careful to tell me what he's actually doing rather than leaving me guessing. Last night for instance he texted me to tell me what he was watching on TV. Sunday nights he tends to go dark, but he has always struggled with Sunday nights enormously, if he's seeing someone else on Sunday nights I wouldn't envy her smile

I feel like he needs a lot of alone time right now to cope with his job and with the whole situation, (he works incredibly long hours, he's at work for 7.30 and doesn't finish till 6.30, he has insomnia so he often goes to bed about 9, he literally only has about 2 hours to himself all day) and I suppose I have to respect that, whilst also pointing out that we need to spend a bit more time together in order to make our connection stronger. He's also running a lot, which is such a total 180 for him. I'm glad he's taking care of himself like that, he needs a healthy way to de-stress. Plus it means we can have something to do together.

Anyway, I am having a nice morning so far, drinking coffee outside enjoying the birdsong and how green things are. Later on I'll go for a run, maybe go to the garden centre to buy a pot plant because dh reminded me yesterday that he'd asked me to do this a while back and I've not had a chance. He's taking the kids to their activity this morning and then taking them out to lunch, it's a shame I'm not there but he'll get a chance to miss me. I did meet my deadline, thanks Alison. The end product was not great but it was supposed to be a draft anyway. I will do some more work today, outdoors enjoying the fresh air. I went to the pub last night and was chatting to some random bloke, I practiced validating when he was telling me about his problems instead of my usual know it all suggesting fixes or playing devils advocate approach. I will keep practicing validating, it's a good skill to have.

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I hear what you are saying. I am glad you are still able to enjoy the simple pleasures and take care of yourself. I really struggled with that in my sitch.

I would also say that almost all of us, myself included, had a very good argument as to why our H would never have an A and how it's not possible. My H was (and is) the kindest, loving and most loyal person. People still remark on what a wonderful father and warm person he is when they get to know him. He spends his time off with the kids, carpooling them, tidying the house and running errands. We were so close and in love. It still doesn't make sense to me. .... yet it still happened. I didn't even believe it..... I have read so many women's stories here (MANY) and most them do not believe it's possible either. And then a couple months (or years) later we learn, yes it did happen. Nobody wants to believe it. Something to really think about.

I don't know your H at all and of course I have no proof. I just have been reading the patterns here for years. So that is why I put it in the hypothetical: if I could verify it (which I cannot) would that change what you do right now? Have you thought about that?

I ask this because we read here that we should follow the rules regardless, which includes working on detachment, GAL and 180s. No R talks, no initiating contact and letting them go. Also, most women would not allow for cake eating or an affectionate relationship with their H while in an A. If you do not know there is an A, it is better to assume that there is.

A or no A, I get the sense your H knows he can come back home at any time. I am not sure that will help you. What is his incentive to make changes?

Blu


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I'm not sure it would change what I'm doing really if he was having an A. But then I don't think he'd be paying me that much attention if he was in that obsessive stage anyway. And I'm sure you're correct that nobody wants to see it. But in any case, an A is really just a symptom of problems in a marriage anyway, and I agree that we have had those for some years now.

His incentive is that he wants to be a better person. He's told me that several times, which is why I told him the other day that I do see him becoming a better person. I think he's frightened that if he comes back our marriage will slip back into old habits and he wouldn't be able to bear that. I told him that I didn't want that to happen either, and that I wouldn't want him to come back right now (though he knows I want to stay married to him). I really don't want to have any R talks from now on, I want the last time he said ILYB to be the last time he ever says that. So any R talks will have to come from him unless I decide I've had enough and give him an ultimatum. It might come to that, for now I'll be patient and work on my side of things.

I actually disagree about the no initiating contact thing, that's probably true just after BD and for a while afterwards I probably should have done that, but given I've been the distancer I feel like I need to initiate contact at least occasionally. When I do text him he usually texts right back, he didn't do that a few months ago, unless it was a question he'd often ignore it or not respond for a long time. If I call him he calls right back now, right now it feels quite equal in terms of who initiates contact and we both respond to each other. We lost sight of what each other was up to and lost interest in what the other person was doing, and it feels like we're rectifying that by taking an interest in each other's lives for the first time in a very long time. 180s for both of us. He's also said a few times that I don't really 'know' him (which is kind of funny given the walls he puts up and has put up for so long).

I was listening to a podcast about avoidant versus anxious attachment just now and it was fascinating, there was a bit about anxious people (i.e. dh) not wanting the avoidant person (i.e. me) to display strong emotion, even punishing them for it. Wow. Yes. And then there was a bit about the avoidant person needing the anxious person to show them love because the avoidant person would never ask even though they need it. Fascinating. There was a lot more in there, I need to listen to it a few times I think. Another podcast I was listening to was saying that when trying to work towards secure attachment, the anxious person needs to become more avoidant and the avoidant person needs to become more anxious, and that usually the pendulum swings a bit too far and then needs to be corrected back. Again, fascinating. Lots to think about.

I went to the garden centre and texted dh a few photos of potential plants and he liked the ones I chose. We had a few texts about the kids, he hung out and watched TV with ds2 which was nice. Later on he rang to chat, asked if I'd been for my run yet and said he'd like to go for a run when we meet up on Tuesday, but that he either wanted to meet up a bit later or to have a pint first so that he had a chance to sit down and chill out first since he's got to come straight from work. I think that was him acknowledging that he'd brought his work stuff to our date last week. Transitions have always been a big problem for him (travelling, particularly by plane with him was always horrendous in the past), so I can see a pattern there, in fact I've just realised that if I turn up somewhere and he's already there then he's usually ok as long as I'm on time, but if I'm somewhere and he arrives then he's often difficult. So maybe it's all transitions and not just some and sometimes it's not all to do with me.

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You're doing well, Dilly. I think it's good that you're thinking all this through, and talking it over with your IC and that you're considering how equal the contact is and how much of your H's issues are to do with your marriage and how much are just to do with him. I guess at some point you need to decide if you want a man like him - you have a long long history, and he is making small changes, and the man he is now isn't capable of the marriage you want, though perhaps there are small signs he is moving in that direction. I get how you'd both be so afraid of going back to the past, and yet not quite able to take a leap of faith forward into a different future. Perhaps the holiday in April will be a real watershed point - both in terms of his work stuff being a bit less demanding at that point, and you both having a decent stretch of time together in a way that you haven't done for a long time. And April isn't that long away now. I think you might have a lot of clarity after that point.

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Yes I think you're right, though maybe I shouldn't get my hopes too high, so far in this whole process I have done nothing but be too optimistic and have my hopes dashed. As my IC keeps telling me, expectations are built-in disappointments.

I read your thread and how you wished you had pushed for change earlier. I do too, when he did his mini BD 2 years ago and then came back, I wish so much I hadn't let him push things under the carpet but insisted on things changing then. Things did change a bit last year but I have no idea why, I thought that he was finally being a decent husband and when I asked him later he said he was 'trying', why couldn't he have continued trying? Or did he need me to try too but couldn't tell me? Or had he just given up? I don't know. I just know I wish so much I had insisted on change 2 years ago instead of getting to this excruciating place. Sometimes being an optimist is a bad thing...If he does want to come back I need to be understanding but not too forgiving. I'm a very forgiving person but that doesn't protect me from future harm and it doesn't help him change. One of the things I told the IC right at the start was that I wanted him to challenge me and to hold me to account. I will remind him of that next week. I feel like last week he was just validating me and that was annoying. He's made a few mistakes, like asking me early on how it would feel to be divorced (I wailed my eyes out and he felt bad), but I want him to continue to ask me difficult but not impossible questions.

When I went to the garden centre yesterday I had a flashback to this time last year when dh and I went to that garden centre together. He was very rude to me, kept picking plants I didn't like and trying to make out like he was some gardening expert when he has NEVER expressed the slightest interest in gardening whereas I've been into gardening for 25 years and have a lot of knowledge! He was so extremely rude to me at the checkout that I could tell an older lady at the till next to us really wanted to intervene (how humiliating). When we took the stuff out to the car he was again unbelievably unkind to me and I could see this poor lady wanting to talk to me about how unacceptable his behaviour was (that was the worst part, not only having witnesses but seeing through someone else's eyes just how unreasonable his behaviour was), and I ended up walking off and catching the bus back.

I am still trying to puzzle that time out. I don't know if it's helpful or not to mention that his mum (the one who had an affair, ran off with another man and ended up abandoning dh and his siblings) is really, really into gardening. Can't help but feel it's linked somehow...

Anyway, I thought I would remind myself that although sometimes things were better last year (we had a lot more sex and he was a lot more affectionate), there were still some hideous low points.

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That sounds like a really really low point, Dilly. And I don't think you're wrong about the plants and the gardening being significant to him in a way that you can see, and perhaps he's not yet ready to admit to himself. How do you think he'd have explained or justified his behaviour to himself or you at that time?

And no - best not to have expectations for the behaviour of other people. I fall into that trap myself, and it's hard and almost always leads to disappointment. But I think you're seeing things very clearly, and as time passes you will see them more clearly still - especially once your H's work settles down and you see him a bit more often in April. And whatever information you do get, I think you'll be able to act on it.

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It's fast moving tonight.

So I texted him a bunch today about ds2's match and stuff. He was very short in his replies. I rang him in the evening and no reply. I tried again an hour later. Then I texted him later saying he must be too busy to ring me back and I hope he got his work done. Then I just got really mad and sent him a rude text, I was in the middle of dishing up dinner, I'd had a couple of glasses of wine and I have had some extremely busy days, my head was not calm at all. And Blu's post and my IC's comment got under my skin, plus the stuff about the garden centre must have been swirling round my head since yesterday.

He texted back saying how dare I and that he'd been out for a run and injured himself again and not to ring back. I said I was sorry and I was in a strop dishing up dinner to ungrateful teens (ds1 refused to join me and ds2, I think he's trying to finish up homework and has job stuff to sort out, I think he's stressed). He rang me back a bit later and we mostly smoothed things over and discussed ds2's match. Then he rang me back half an hour later and said he'd calmed down properly and we chatted again. Then I came on here and read what I'd written about the garden centre and decided to ring dh and tell him about that. I was quite calm, I just said I'd had a flashback and that I wasn't expecting an apology but it was a year ago and it was a painful memory for me. He said he had no recollection of it, but that he knew he was capable of being nasty. I said that I had also played a part in the situation (like years of putting up with his anger and either being defensive or hiding instead of being assertive and/or empathetic) and that I was sorry for my role in it. He also said that maybe if it was a year ago then he was upset about me going away without him (Easter holidays have been Peak Abandonment for him, he usually has to work and the kids have lots of time off school so we've been away for the last 4 years without him then). I said I knew it was difficult for him when I went away at Easter with the kids. Then we chatted about ds2's birthday party and ds1's job stuff.

I feel like this was progress for me, to actually be honest instead of hiding from him. I've hidden for so long that it's automatic, but gosh, who wouldn't be angry in the face of that? His behaviour was entirely unacceptable, but I spent so long playing the victim instead of being a grownup. I have to own that. Another thing I've read/heard in podcasts is that distancers think they're just fine and dandy and that their relationship is ok and why is their partner making such a fuss and being so horrible. Guilty.

Quite proud of myself actually, I was quite calm (helps I'm knackered, lol). And proud of dh as well, him admitting the Easter thing is a 180. He has been awful to me every March/April for years now so maybe he's joined the dots at last. Makes me feel doubly glad he's coming for part of our next holiday. I think you're right, Alison, about this April being a revelatory period. Must not expect too much, but there needs to be some movement somehow.

Last edited by dillydaf; 03/24/19 09:07 PM.
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You know, that sounds really good.

I mean, it's not great you sent him a rude text message and assumed the worst of him - but it is also not distancing. You had stuff on your mind, you didn't feel great about it, and you let him know. Perhaps there are better ways, but you can learn those. The impulse to hide away and pretend everything is fine is a strong one to resist.

And it seems like he was making the effort - he rang you and let you know when he was ready to talk. He took some responsibility and has obviously been reflecting on things and taking what you said into account. And you signalled pretty clearly that as well as making your own changes you're also changing your standard in what type of behaviour you will tolerate from him going forwards.

I travel a fair bit for work. Not constantly, but at least once a month or so. And for years, whenever I had to go away and spend the night in a hotel, I would be VILE to H the night before. I'd think I was asking for comfort or special closeness, and he'd feel pressured and pestered and like not only was he being left with the kids, but also had to deal with my emotional needs before and after. I can't say I did this consciously, but looking back I can also see that I picked fights because it was a pretty reliable way to get solid and undivided attention from him. And it was all because (though I didn't realise that at the time) going away from home on my own and leaving my family behind triggered some really old traumatic stuff about being put in care as a child that I had never dealt with. I feel really sorry for my H having to put up with that all those years. And he did try to tell me he thought it was my childhood stuff, and I'd get really angry and say he wasn't taking my needs seriously. I know he felt like whatever he did was never enough. And I regret it such a lot. And I wish it hadn't taken me so long to understand what was going on with me. I hope your H realises before it is too late. If it's any consolation, if he's anything like me (and it sounds like we might be a little bit similar) he's probably internally such a mess and craving affection and attention and utterly unable to trust it when he gets it. It is miserable and makes him unfit for marriage and you can't fix it. But perhaps he is on the way to resolving it himself.

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Thank you Alison, that is so insightful, very helpful for me to get a view from the other side.

I'm sorry for what you went through as a child, no wonder it's taken you such a long time to deal with it. I applaud your bravery for finally working on that stuff, it can't be easy for you (())

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It did take me ages. I have been in IC for a couple of years and working through the edges of it, but I think as long as H was there he was available for me to a) use as an emotional crutch and b) blame if it didn't go my way. I still do a bit of that - if I am honest - but this separation has robbed me of most of that and while it's been incredibly painful, this is old pain that needed processing one way or another. I expect one day I will be grateful for it, though always sad for the damage it's caused my children and my H. I have a lot of abandonment stuff of my own - so I can perhaps guess at stuff from your H's point of view. People with damaged little children inside of them can act crazy and they are no fun to live with and it isn't your fault.

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Thank you for that. I think one of my problems in this whole situation is dh's refusal to acknowledge his abandonment issues let alone work on them. And this stuff comes out in the end and causes great destruction. But acknowledging it takes a lot of courage when it has caused you and others so much pain, much easier to blame other people. I feel a lot more empathy now I know how agonising it is to feel abandoned. I know I can't fix him but I would like to understand him and to help him heal in whatever limited way I can. I'm keeping my dream in my head in order to empathise instead of react and only consider my side of things. I need to be really gentle with him.

And I also feel like I will eventually be grateful for going through this because it's made me look at my blind spots and my beliefs and my reactions and behaviour and hopefully be a better person and better wife as a result. I can't waste this much pain by going back to the oblivious person I was before.

Good day today, went to an aerobics class with a friend, had a quick run in the gorgeous weather, now to get some work done before a class later and then taking the kids to their afterschool stuff. Ds1 is stressed by having to do forms for his new job and I know how intimidating bureaucracy can be so I will see what moral support he needs later.

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I know my H has been very frustrated when he's pointed out that he feels my emotional reactions to things (his coldness and distance, his parenting styles, his EA) are more to do with my childhood experiences than his behaviour. He's said, many times, he feels like he's taking the blame for my past. That I don't actually see him, but I only see other people who have hurt me, and he's paying for their misdeeds. He says I massively over-react and he can't live his life around my trauma, trying not to trigger it and to heal it. And I can totally see that. He is right.

What it feels like for me is that because I've had a terrible childhood I am not yet healed from, I am not allowed to have a reasonable emotional reaction or objection to actual factual things he's done in the present. That he believes most normal people would be okay with the silent treatment, the EA, the verbal abuse, the relentless criticism. Those things aren't in my head: they actually happened, and he did them - and it isn't only trauma that makes me object to them. He believes (or at least I gather this from what he says and now he acts) that the problem isn't in how he behaves, but in my inability to tolerate it.

I think we're both right, and it is good for me to heal the past and work out which of my feelings are about now and which are about then. And I can't do that work with him in the house with me, still acting in ways that trigger that stuff and hurt me. So where we are today - me healing and setting boundaries is the right place to be.

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The thing is, no matter the damage you received during childhood, your husband will have his own stuff to look at too. Us distancers are not very good at taking responsibility for our own feelings and behaviours. It's easy as a distancer to point a finger and say 'look at that pursuer, what an emotional mess' because we're so cool and calm (we're withdrawn and don't realise it). And I agree that he ought to be looking at it and not just blaming you for your role in things. But it does take one person to start changing for the other person to shift, and you've already started making those changes.

And I have to be honest here Alison: you need to forgive your husband for the past. I can see lots of 'I understand how he was like this because I was like that' but I don't see any forgiveness yet. Maybe it's too early for you. I feel like until you can forgive him at least a bit (emotionally, not just intellectually) and let go of some of your resentments you will find it hard to trust that he can change, and your behaviour will make it harder for him to change, because you'll constantly be judging and waiting for him to slip up and go back to old habits. I can see that he did a few things during family therapy which seemed like old habits, but it sounds like outside that he also did some positive things which show willingness to change. Maybe try to focus more on the positive stuff than the negative, it takes time to change habits and if you believe the worst of him then he'll live down to those expectations. None of his terrible behaviour was acceptable, just like my husband's behaviour was unacceptable, but they both had their reasons for behaving that way and they had no malicious intent, they were responding in a really terrible way to stuff they felt and to the way we acted and reacted. But forgiveness is a process and a very long and difficult and cyclical one too, I'm finding. Anyway, I'm playing devil's advocate to some of the stuff you're saying, I know you've had a bad day or two and I hope you manage to find your hope again.

Tiring day but a pretty good one, texted dh a bunch of times about different stuff like some critical feedback I got and he responded quickly even though he has had a very long and busy day. I told him how glad I am he's coming to the run on Saturday, especially when he's so manic at work this week. Had a quick chat with him this evening about some good news for ds2. Actually looking forward to our date tomorrow, though I need to plan for our goodbye because last time we went to this place I ended up getting really upset at him leaving me on the tube. So maybe I'll discuss that with him in advance of us saying goodbye.

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.Hi Dilly

Just wanted to say thanks for piping on my thread.

Originally Posted by dillyDaf
But it does take one person to start changing for the other person to shift, and you've already started making those changes.


I can see that you have looked inward and are now consciously making changes to the behaviours which contributed to where you are now. Distancing behaviors stem from a desire not to be hurt - it is, at times, an ill conceived and damaging form of self preservation. But to let those barriers down mean we open ourselves up to being hurt. So, for you to try to change those behaviours, to open yourself up to hurt and rejection, shows great courage.

So, I am all for you trying to change this. The only thing I will say is that we should make these changes for us. Not for our H's. Not because we expect some change from them. Other people will always disappoint, WW's and WAW especially because they have their own [censored] to deal with, their own fog to walk through. Walk aways do so because they believe that there is something, anything, better. They are willing to blow up families because of this belief. There is courage there. But there is also frustration, resentment and a great deal of selfishness .

Make the changes and persevere with them (which your doing) because eventually behaviour becomes habit. But do it with no expectation. When we have expectations and those expectations aren't met. We retreat. So, be consistent in your behaviors, but don't get upset if he is inconsistent with his.

You are on the right track. He is starting to come around. But this is a marathon. Be patient. Continue walking your path and making the changes for you.

The changes are for us. He will notice them. He has noticed them. But they are for us.

Last edited by FlySolo; 03/26/19 06:53 AM.

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FS: I agree with every word you say. But those changes aren't just for us, they're also for our relationships. Because if you're distancing you can't have intimacy. And living without intimacy is unsatisfying. And I agree that you can't MAKE someone else change, absolutely not. But if my husband is too damaged and stubborn and unable to change enough in the right direction for us to save this, then I'll still have the knowledge that I did my very best, and I'll have learnt new skills and behaviours which would be healthy in another relationship.

Talking of expectations, my dh texted me this morning to say he had to get up at 5.30 to get to work, I know that this is partly because he wants to leave early for our date and he has such a busy week. I feel grateful that he's made this time for me, but also I know he will be exhausted so I'll keep my expectations low. He'll be past this busy season next week, I wonder how he will feel then. I wish he felt able to step off this hamster wheel of overachievement in his job, but I can see that the faster the wheel spins, the scarier it is to jump off.

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Thanks Dilly. I appreciate you commenting on my situation - on your own thread too! - and also your forthright honesty. I think you're right. I won't comment further here as I don't want to derail your thread by talking about my own stuff (I only mentioned my own thinking in case it helped illuminate things with you and your H) any further.

On whether we make the changes for us or not. I guess I agree with you Dilly. I want a close intimate relationship. It is my desire and I think it would benefit me in lots of ways. That means working on changes and forgiveness - and, perhaps, letting go out the outcome. I don't want to manipulate my H into coming home by being nice to him or pretending I have forgiven him when I haven't. But I want to be the sort of person capable of an intimate and forgiving relationship, and I work on those changes in the hope that if he makes his own changes, it can work out. And if it doesn't work out, it will benefit me anyway, whether to feel better about being alone or a more suitable and giving partner to someone else one day.

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Yes, exactly. And I think both our husbands also want a close and intimate relationship too. But it's easier said than done when both of you have defences up. I'm trying to take mine down first and that takes a lot of courage but I have to.

OK date last night. We met up, had a fun activity then went to find a restaurant. Dh got very snappy because I messed up the navigation on my phone and it crossed my mind to run away, then I saw that thought for what it was and ignored it. Go me. He said he was very tired and also needed the toilet, which is enough to make anyone snappy smile He took us to a different restaurant and we had a nice meal. He told me some big stuff which is going to happen at work at the end of April which is going to change everything for him, possibly in a good way (but not in a working fewer hours way, sigh, and with a huge amount of upheaval). We talked about the kids. He said he was going to come home for mother's day and take us all out for lunch and then go back to work. He asked me to breakfast before our run on Saturday and said he couldn't stay for lunch because he has to go back to work in the afternoon.

There's also some stuff with his mum, she contacted me asking to see the kids soon and I am so so so furious with her I think I will have to arrange it so she comes when I'm not there. I feel like this is in a big part her fault for abandoning dh and she has never owned it or apologised or tried to make it up to him or his siblings. I can't forgive her for the damage she's caused dh, and he can't either. So I will avoid her, because I'm not sure that I would be able to be civil to her right now.

So I kept my expectations low and they were exceeded. In the busiest week of his year dh is making a big effort to see me, that's good. I'm feeling stressed due to weight of work right now and because there is lots going on, so I will try not to think about the future right now. This work thing of dh's might mean he's less likely to move towards me, I don't know. Last night he looked at me lovingly, but I've seen that look before and he gave it to me the night before he left, so goodness knows what that means. I'm exhausted and think I'll just go with the flow for a bit.

Oh and edit: when dh got off the train he gave me a hug and said 'don't cry when I'm gone' and waited on the platform till the train went and waved me goodbye. That was ok.

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Gosh, that stuff with his mum sounds hard.

You know, if it were me, I might just delegate H to deal with that. It's his mother, they're his kids - and he can organise and administer it if she wants to see them and he approves of that. I know you want to support him if you can, and you don't want to distance but this is something you, for very good reasons, can't deal with right now. He's managed to opt out of quite a lot of things he can't deal with, so I don't see why you shouldn't either. Do your kids want to see her?

But that's the only negative thing in your post - and it isn't your H's doing, and all the other things were really positive. I must learn from this and train myself to notice positive things. For some reason it makes me feel very vulnerable to do that, so I am going to discuss that in IC too.

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The annoying thing is, he's separately arranged to take his mum to lunch during the week because he hasn't seen her since last summer. Usually this time of year he will take them to see her for a few hours but he hasn't this year. The kids don't want to see her but will happily collect the birthday money she will give them, once I put them on a train to meet her for dinner but ds2 said that was 'hell, pure hell' (because he had to actually talk to her instead of slope off to his room!). If she visits here the kids disappear off to their rooms after a bit (I don't blame them) and if I go off to do housework she'll follow me round and talk at me. So I think I will offer her a couple of dates and just make sure I'm out of the house for a long time. I've no desire to see her, particularly if she behaves like she did at Christmas, playing the victim card about her relationship and simultaneously patronising me for dh leaving even though she has no idea about the full story.

Anyway, I'll text her and leave it up to her. Plenty of friendly texts with dh yesterday, he is manically busy still so hopefully he's looking after himself.

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She sounds like a very difficult woman. Do you know what your H wants you to do with regards to her seeing the kids?

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She is a very difficult woman, and we have some stuff she's done in the past to me which I resent her for a lot (though dh defended me at the time he took on the criticisms she had of me and this is what hurts much more). This all came back to me with a huge bang yesterday. I had a difficult session with my IC, very difficult. I know I told him to challenge me, but I think he was doing it to an unreasonable extent when I was feeling vulnerable about retelling the dream I had.

Anyway, I was driving and I got this stuff about MIL into my head and how much I hate her for damaging dh and for damaging my children in turn and how much I hate dh for behaving like her and abandoning us, and I got myself into a right fury. Luckily I was driving so I couldn't contact dh, because he had done nothing to provoke all this reaction, it was in me. And I knew that but I was still so angry. If forgiveness is a cyclical process then I was straight back into all the resentments I've had at dh about leaving me essentially a single mum, not being there for me over the years, etc. So I cried a little bit and thought a lot and eventually I decided that all this was just not helpful. You can't change the past, just learn from it and try to be a better person. So I let it go, turned the radio up, sang along and by the time I got to my destination I was balanced again. It was interesting. Difficult, but interesting.

Dh's last big day at work today, I wished him luck and I hope he's not too exhausted tomorrow. I wish he was able to take a couple of days off work but I'm pretty sure he can't or won't. At least he gets away when he comes to see us in April. I was going to ring him and say 'your mother, you sort out the kids seeing her' but he has enough on his plate right now without having to deal with that, and he has to endure her for lunch. I will just arrange for her to come and see the kids and make very sure I am not there.

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Do you have enough on your plate too? it wouldn't kill him to take the reins in arranging contact with the kids with his mother, would it?

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Really it would be easiest if the kids arranged it themselves. But they have both blocked her mobile number...So tempting, so so tempting to do that myself smile I can send her a text, it won't kill me. The kids have a ridiculous schedule between them now that ds1 has started his job, so it's only me that has the calendar in my phone and in my head. Dh does know a lot more now what they're up to, but I will take that extra burden from him.

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MIL update: I told her one day next week is the only date the kids can make for ages (true) and she said she would drop presents over tomorrow. I said we are going out so she can come before that, I plan to be out until the very last minute before we have to leave. She was pushing for a date after Easter, she can whistle for that.

Today: I met dh for breakfast (OK) and we did our social run together. He wasn't very comfortable in a big group of my friends and he went off much too fast, he was quite snappy with me and he had to leave early to go and work. I had low expectations because I knew it would be out of his comfort zone in a lot of ways and also he's exhausted by his busy time at work. I could see today how tired he was. So my expectations were pretty much met, I was ok with giving him the benefit of the doubt and he wasn't horrible, just not particularly nice. Tomorrow I expect a bit more when we're by ourselves again. Tomorrow is the last push at work and after that hopefully things will ease off for him a bit.

I'll stay in a holding pattern for a while I think while his work calms down and he recovers. My friends were very impressed at him turning up at all, it's a total 180 for him to want to see any of my friends or to go running. Him coming home early tomorrow for mother's day lunch is also a 180, he and the kids have always ignored it in the past. And he could have just said he has to work, given the kids a bunch of money and asked them to take me out. So that is also positive.

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Hi Dilly

I admire you for keeping your expectations low and being so understanding of where your husband is with his work right now. And also for noticing the positives. And I think you handled your MIL really well. That's some great boundary setting there.

Do you have boundaries for when your husband snaps at you? I know there's a difference between snapping and ill temper and verbal abuse. But I bet your husband could control himself when speaking to your friends or his colleagues. He chooses not to control his ill temper with you. Do you stand up for yourself or set a boundary when he speaks to you disrespectfully? From your posts over the past couple of weeks, it seems like he's snappy with you almost every time you see him.

Hope you have a good time tomorrow. Happy Mother's day for then. You deserve one!

J

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Actually I'm not sure he's great at controlling himself with his colleagues...He hasn't been that snappy really, just one or two short times the last couple of times I've seen him and perhaps I've been sensitive to it because I'm conscious I don't want it back as a habit (nor does he). Both times I've sort of gone quiet and withdrawn a bit (but not run away even if I felt like it) and I could pretty much feel him thinking about his behaviour and stopping it. So that's progress. Maybe I should be more assertive about it, once or twice I was lighthearted in return and that was ok (he hates feeling laughed at though). I need to be assertive and not defensive as my default. The other day in the restaurant he asked me to open the wine and I started doing it and he then made out like he knew the 'right' way to do it and started doing it, it didn't work very well and he gave it back to me and said 'I guess there's more than one way of doing it so it works'. That was a 180 from him. So today he didn't treat me well but he didn't treat me badly. He's entitled to the odd nasty comment, we all are. I'm tired and possibly not very good at responding and also super sensitive about any criticism. I need to sleep well tonight for a change so I can help him to be kind instead of critical, he doesn't want to be critical any more and I want to help him with that by being assertive. Not my natural state! Maybe I need to say that to him? I feel like I've gone back to being a bit closed off to him again partly because I'm tired and partly because he is. Maybe I need to say that as well.

I had some friends there today who know my situation and I felt sad and angry that things are still messy and complicated. They thought him coming was a big thing though, especially during his busiest week of the year. I texted him and said that I appreciated it wasn't really in his comfort zone and I appreciated the effort he'd gone to to come when he's so busy.

Thanks, happy mother's day to you too smile

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I think it's a really big thing that he's come and met your friends - especially as he might presume you've spoken to your friends a lot more recently and fully about what it in your mind and heart and they might have an opinion about him. Not saying that's true - but I can imagine it might be in his mind, and might be a bit of a facing for him. It is a positive sign.

I have a friend whose husband gets a bit critical and controlling (not in an abusive way, just in a nit-picky, moany type of way) when he's stressed. She deals with it by very mildly and affectionately making fun of him. Her point is made, but she's light hearted and affectionate about it and he can take a joke and is aware he gets a bit moany and critical when he's stressed so is willing to accept that gentle reminder from her.

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Yes! Thank you, I'd not considered it in quite that light before, he is super sensitive to what people think about him so knowing that some of my friends today know the situation and might feel negatively towards him might have been difficult for him (they don't actually, they are very kind and understanding women who want the best for me and for my marriage to work). Thank you for pointing out that to me, I thought it was out of his comfort zone to just meet all my friends but that must have added to his stress.

Excellent point, that's kind of what I mean about being assertive and not defensive, perhaps pointing out his negativity in an affectionate way sometimes might be useful, instead of over-reacting and then making it worse. I remember once I completely defused a rather rude text from him a few years back by saying 'lol, you have such a great sense of humour, that's why I love you'. I might experiment with more of that sort of thing, because he will never stop being critical altogether so I need to minimise it and handle it better.

Thank you, both great points there for me to think about and work with.

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I need to think these things through myself. With the best will in the world, my H is stressed and anxious and short on sleep and doesn't have much in the way of domestic comfort at the moment. And he isn't a particularly skilled communicator. I'm naturally better (my work is in this area) and I've been in psychotherapy for two years, which of course has had its effect. He's also sensitive to the thought of being disrespected or laughed at, which means humour when used badly can backfire. He probably is going to be difficult and impatient and snappy with me for a while yet to come - and that isn't the same as verbal abuse - and I am trying to think through for myself what an assertive response from me would look like.

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Maybe we could both experiment and see what works best?
Yesterday: dh came home super early and went off to the gym, I took the kids out and he met me there for a walk. Then we went out for a mother's day lunch, we had a nice time all together. Then the kids went off to the shops together and we walked home so dh could go back to work for a few hours (final day). I got a hug goodbye but I haven't had a kiss on the lips since that one time a week ago or so. The walk was ok, he was just talking about work politics and what might happen (he's less optimistic of proper change). I listened and validated and asked questions. We talked about the social run and he said that he thought my friends were being fake cheerful somehow. I said they were just excited to see each other, just like I was, and they are an enthusiastic bunch. They're also quite physically demonstrative, and I'm not sure he's comfortable with that at all! I'm not sure he's capable of taking off his competitive hat and just chatting, he's been competitive for so long he doesn't know how not to do it, even when it's a noncompetitive environment.

I know he's really tired but I could feel he was more distant yesterday, and I felt myself being more distant too. I'd like to know how to get back to where we were a week or so ago when I felt more comfortable being open with him.
I also feel really under the weather today with a headache and stomach ache, so I'm just going to park these thoughts and feelings for now.

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Hi Dilly

I hope you're feeling better soon - headaches and stomach aches are the worst. I think we're in different parts of the UK but there are a lot of viruses going around right now.

Do you think when your husband gets competitive or critical (it sounds like he really needed to share that he disliked or disapproved of your friends) a different approach might work? It sounds like you were defending your friends or even yourself for liking them and enjoying their company. I was thinking of what Flying Solo was saying on her thread about responding to her husband's criticism and the way that has made things easier for her and might even have encouraged a change in his behaviour.

My therapist once advised me to respond to barbed remarks and critical comments from my H with a very mildly expressed 'you might be right' - then go away and think about it on my own, decide if I want to make any changes, then make them without further discussion with him. Obviously if he asked me for something in particular, 'I want you to stop seeing your friends who I don't like' then I'd respond directly, but otherwise, I'd just acknowledge he'd spoken, acknowledge the possibility that he might have said something useful to me, but not engage with it verbally further. No defending myself, or justifying my choices, or explaining myself, or anything like that. What also helps when he's moaning about something that isn't really anything to do with him is to gently say, 'can you tell me what you want?' - if he just wants me to listen to him whinge, well, I might or I might not depending on my own needs at that time - but it is a phrase that reminds him he is an adult responsible for working out what he needs and expressing that, rather than just criticising me relentlessly whenever he's uncomfortable in some way.

When I remember to do these two things (which is not often - I tend to get very upset and reactive around his criticism) it helps. It does sound like your husband was out of sorts, and snappy, and uncomfortable seeing you with your friends, and perhaps uncomfortable with what your friends might think of him and your situation - and rather than dealing with that himself, he was dumping those feelings on to you. It must have really bothered him for him to bring it up the day after.

I hope you're feeling better soon.

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Ugh, I have had a horrible couple of sleepless nights and yesterday with stomach pains, just getting slowly better now. It makes me feel weak and needy and like I need someone to come and take care of me. I'm not quite sure why I feel like dh should do this, because he never has. Once when the kids were tiny and I was throwing up the whole day and struggling to care for them I begged him to come home early and he came home at 5.30pm...And then I remember that, and then I remember all the times he hasn't been there for me when I needed him and it's pretty unbearable. So I simultaneously want him to care for me and then reject him if he tries to ring and be nice to me, and I go into full on self pity nobody-loves me-mode. I said a few not very nice things to him yesterday, we kind of made up later on but I just texted and apologised for it this morning.

You're right, I was defending my friends, even though I've been trying hard to be assertive not defensive. It was pretty overwhelming for him, I can see that. He did ask about a few of the individual friends I talk about quite a bit, I just think in person it was too much to have so many people about (I would have found that too if it had been his friends I was just meeting, but there's usually alcohol involved with his friends lol). I could have handled it a lot better, I think I felt like he was shutting me out again so I was shutting him out and we were both reverting to bad habits. Something to think about for new improved me to do better in future. I really want to tell him about my dream but I have to feel comfortable enough to do it because every time I tell someone about it I cry.

We've had a few nice texts today, dh is exhausted still after working at the weekend and having work social events last night and tonight, he said he'd try to catch up on sleep tomorrow afternoon and we're meeting on Thursday night. So I hope that will go well.

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Oh Dilly, it's always worse when you are ill and wanting to be coddled a bit. That's not a bad thing. But it's probably too much to expect your H to do that for you now - especially as he's never been able to do that for you.

What was he like when things were going well? Has he always been so obsessed with his own life and work and unable to unselfishly care for you? What would him caring for you look like, in his language?

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Yes I agree that it's too much to expect, especially as he never did much before, I think the physical distance is just much harder when you're under the weather. And I seem to have had my body misbehave far more than normal in the last 7 months! (stress? plus hormones, weight loss, etc)

I think caring for me looks like acts of service, cooking a nice dinner, filling my car up, that sort of thing. And he still does that sort of thing occasionally when he has the opportunity. I think it's got less and less over the years as he's got busier and busier and worked harder and longer hours, and he felt unappreciated so thought why bother appreciating me.

I really wish I hadn't been so needy because it turned into one of those circular sessions where we both say not very nice, completely unconstructive things to each other. I will apologise properly to him about my words and tell him I intend not to use them in future. I want to be more positive in what I ask for, not rehash old arguments which go nowhere.

Dh is hungover after a very late and alcohol filled work dinner last night, he now has to take his mum to lunch and then hopefully he can catch up on sleep so he's nice to be with tomorrow evening. I'm kind of glad I don't have to see him today actually! I wish he didn't drink so much, I think he wishes that too. I don't want him to reach the stage of harming his health, though he has told me a few times the old chestnut of 'you've got to die sometime you might as well die happy'. Ugh. I'm not sure he believes that though I'm not sure he knows how to cut down or give up his crutch. I told him he's given up his wife before wine, there was too much truth in there to be comfortable.

Anyway, I have a nice busy day planned, lots of productive work, seeing a friend for a class, taking ds2 to an appointment later, a counselling appointment, going to cook myself a proper dinner and get lots of gardening done. I should get started.

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I'm glad you're feeling a bit better and that you've got some nice things planned for yourself today. You've been at this longer than I have, but I've noticed that I can deal with the marriage situation and the sadness and uncertainty perfectly well most days, but then if there's something else - me feeling sick, or a problem at work, or the kids being difficult - then it's the marriage situation that starts to attract all of my sadness even though it hasn't changed that much. It's just the last straw sometimes. If you're an Acts of Service person it isn't surprising you feel a bit emotionally neglected as he's not there to show you love in that kind of way. Do you think he'd understand all his working to be a way of making you all financially secure and a kind of Act of Service? It sounds like it's more of an obsession or a crutch than anything else, but I guess it could be both, to him.

Do you know what your H's love language is?

We did the quiz together a few weeks before he moved out. His is Acts of Service - hands down. Mine is Words of Affirmation and Physical Touch. I know for a long time he would busy himself elsewhere in the house cleaning or doing some domestic task and I would be waiting in the bedroom for him feeling horrifically rejected and like he was avoiding me and being deliberately evasive. Some nights I would come home from work exhausted and I'd really want a hug and a conversation, and he'd put me in a room on my own and bring me a drink and leave me to it, and I'd feel like an animal that had been locked in a hutch - though he was trying to give me quiet and space because that's what he'd want in that situation. I don't know if we need to understand each other better or we're just not, at a basic level, very compatible. I've been working on doing Acts of Service for him - in the hope it communicates my love for him in the way that he understands it - but that leaves me with a lot of vulnerable and resentful feelings to process.

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Yes, it's the final straw, exactly. And feeling unloved and alone and abandoned is just the pits.

I think the acts of service is HIS LL, not mine. So for years he would do those little things for me and I would ignore them, that must have been hurtful. And when I did stuff for him I did it grudgingly, so my 180 is doing stuff for him swiftly and willingly. I'm not sure if his other LL is words of affirmation or gifts, so I try to do both (affirmation does not come easy). My other 180 is thanking him every time he does something for me, whether it's a nice date at a nice pub or him coming over at the weekend.

My LL are physical touch and quality time I think. Both very scarce right now, and both things he has given me less and less of over the years. Also why I asked him for a proper hug after every meeting, and also why I asked him for the weekly date and also I am fairly insistent on seeing him at least for a short time each weekend. He has met that though the physical touch hasn't been as much as I'd like.

I'm trying hard to see his working so hard as an act of service, that's one thing I need to apologise for saying to him yesterday. I feel soooooo resentful of him choosing his job over his family, I really really struggle with that and have done for a long time. But expressing that isn't helpful, I would be better thanking him for working so hard for his family and our financial security. I have been expressing this more in the last few months but I need to step it up a gear. I know he gets all kinds of other ego boosting benefits and so on from his job, but fundamentally him working hard is part of what he prides himself on so I should appreciate him for that too. Something to keep 180ing on, being grateful to him for working hard even though it robs his family of HIM. Really not easy...

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That sounds really really hard. And there's perhaps a boundary to be made there too, about being authentic to your own feelings.

It sounds like your true feelings are a mixture - you appreciate that he's a hard worker, but you also really resent the fact that his working patterns have negatively impacted his relationship with you and the children and that he doesn't seem to appreciate that or be willing to make a change to benefit his family. Would it help things for you to fake gratitude when actually there's a whole lot of very reasonable resentment in there too?

I don't know what the answer is. I only ask because I am mulling over the same thing myself. I am trying to show gratitude too - because I know H has felt unappreciated. But there are things he's done, and is still doing, that have really caused harm and he's not able to acknowledge them. And I am really frustrated about that. I want to be honest, not fake. And I know being honest doesn't mean sharing every single thought and feeling that goes through my head with H and expecting him to deal with it all to my timescale.

Very hard. How anyone makes a marriage work is beyond me. I hope you enjoy your garden today. It's raining here but I am going to get the puppy out on a walk anyway because I need the space.

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Yes, there's a difference between being open and vulnerable and being so brutally honest you hurt the other person. Judging that difference particularly when one or both of you are upset is tricky. I suppose it helps to know the other person's sore spots so you try to avoid them as much as possible. I'm not sure I did that on Monday, part of the reason I want to apologise.

I absolutely have a mixture of feelings: on the one hand I'm proud of his career success through hard work and determination, and I'm thankful he's provided well for his family. But that is so mixed up with me feeling like he's chosen his job over his family that I have a really hard time expressing appreciation because of that. Maybe I have to separate the two in my head more, the way he probably does. And it remains my one greatest resentment which I'm having trouble letting go of, partly because it's only got worse since he left! But I cannot change the past, I have to forgive him for his role in the past and see that I also contributed towards it to some extent. I also know that his job is not really in line with his values (he has said this last year when he was clearly struggling with it) but he's having difficulty letting go, of losing face, of not getting his ego fed, of what his future will look like without his current role. And me reminding him that he's not living up to his values is NOT helpful, he needs to sort this out by himself and I will listen if he needs me to, but he won't if he feels attacked. So far I've said 'you're a good man, I believe you will make good decisions' to many things he's talked about (including whether he wants to stay married or not). I will keep saying that or something along those lines, and hope that he lives up to the words.

Useful session with my IC, we talked a lot about how hard it is being vulnerable and doubly hard when the person has so much power to hurt you by leaving forever, but that you can't have intimacy without vulnerability. And how maybe I could ask dh for other ways to meet my needs (because saying I need a hug when he isn't there is not much use to him and probably makes him feel guilty and useless). I listened to a super helpful podcast (last one of Relationship Alive) where they discuss: saying how you feel, saying what you need, then explaining how it will help. I can do the first 2 but the 3rd seems useful in actually spelling it out for the other person instead of just being 'needy'. I am going to listen to this podcast a few times I think and maybe get the book, it had lots of 'complete the sentence' activities where you literally start the sentence with a script and then finish it off yourself, the rationale being that if you are triggered you won't remember anything complicated but you might remember a couple of words which propel you in the right direction. And we also talked about how maybe I could think about what the relationship needs instead of each of us as individuals (we have both complained about our own needs not being met for so long and neglected the Us in all this). And we talked a lot about acceptance and uncertainty, which every time I think I'm ok with I'm suddenly not again...I have a lot to think about as usual.

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I've been thinking about acceptance and uncertainty too. I know when I feel angry with H it is because I want him to say 'everything is going to be okay' and for me to be able to believe him. And of course he can't say that, and he can't make me believe or not believe anything. It isn't his job to cure my trust issues in this relationship or my general anxiety around vulnerability or my existential woe! And I did make it his job - I expected him to be my solid ground and he really did try his best to be. I think a lot of his anger is about feeling shamed for not being able to make me safe in the way I wanted to be.

And now I have to accept uncertainty and come to rely on myself and be the person who says to myself 'it will be all right' and some days I can and some days I can't. It is so so so hard. I will check out the podcast you mention. A book I've found useful about this sort of thing is called Radical Acceptance by Tara Brach. It is Buddhist but she refers to other spiritual traditions too and if you're not a person of faith, I don't think it loses its value or there's anything objectionable in it.

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Please start a new thread and link your two threads together. Thanks!


Sit quietly, the answers will reveal themselves when you least expect them to.
The past is gone, the present is a gift and you need to focus on today, allow the future to reveal itself when it is ready.
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