I am so glad you've had a good day and that your H is coming forward with a bit more contact. Maybe he's been digesting the email you sent him and letting it show in his actions, rather than having a conversation with you about it. You deserve a great day after the hard run you've had recently. Did you get your work handed in on deadline?
I just read your threads. I am so very sorry you are here. I went through a terrible separation too. It is so painful. Can I ask how long you have been seeing your IC? When did she first bring up the idea of an A? My IC helped me understand right away that men do not just leave their W and kids without OW. Sure, there may be many reasons stated -- MLC, depression, they want time alone, marital discourse, substance issues, etc, etc -- but the reality is that almost all men leave the home to pursue the affair. Many have As and don't leave, but when they leave in this way, it's almost a guarantee.
I have been reading here for almost 5 years and have followed 100s of posters. I agree with your ICs observations. Your own gut instincts are telling you and you feel it. In fact, I cannot think of a case where a W poster suspected something was wrong (we all know in our gut, but we don't want to believe it) and there wasn't OW. Not one person comes to mind. Sometimes it takes months or even years for us to find proof, but eventually, it comes. Then we can say, I always felt something was missing and now it makes sense.
So why does it even matter if he is gone anyhow? For some of us -- like myself -- it is a complete game changer in the way we now handle our interactions. I had to change everything and not allow him to keep me as his plan B. For others -- like DejaVu who has already moved on -- it may not change as much in what she does. She is also not trying to save her M now and he has been wandering and lying for years.
So I want to ask you, if I could provide you with the proof today, that yes he has OW and yes it has been going on for some time now (most likely for some time before he even moved out) then what does that change for you? How would you do things moving forward? Would you still have breakfast, meet at the pub, have a hug or kiss, have family times with the kids, and share your feelings of what you need to work on or where you went wrong, etc, etc? Would you still send the message that you love him, are waiting and are hoping for his return? Does he still get to know he can have you back and that yes you are plan B if she, OW, doesn't work out?
Only each of us can answer these questions for ourselves. I do not suggest you should do things differently. I can only speak to what I know I went through. If I could go back in time to 6 years ago, knowing what I now know about my H's behavior, I would have done things quite different. I cannot do that obviously. So instead I post here in hopes of offering support and helping others that maybe could see things differently. Because I firmly believe that as long as an H knows that his W is at home waiting his return, he is far less likely to leave OW and come back to her.
Blu
Last edited by BluWave; 03/22/1911:17 PM.
“Forgiveness liberates the soul. It removes fear. That is why it is such a powerful weapon.” – Nelson Mandela
Hi Blu, thanks for your thoughts. I don't really believe he's having an A, I know that most men do but I don't think he's like most men. I'm not saying he might not have been tempted or even had some inappropriate conversations with someone else, but I don't think he's seeing someone else on a regular basis. I could be wrong, I know. If anything, it's work which is his mistress and [censored] all his time and emotional energy from him. My IC: I've been seeing him since about November last year. He was right to point out that dh's rushing me off last week was suspicious, and maybe now that I've told dh he will be more careful to tell me what he's actually doing rather than leaving me guessing. Last night for instance he texted me to tell me what he was watching on TV. Sunday nights he tends to go dark, but he has always struggled with Sunday nights enormously, if he's seeing someone else on Sunday nights I wouldn't envy her
I feel like he needs a lot of alone time right now to cope with his job and with the whole situation, (he works incredibly long hours, he's at work for 7.30 and doesn't finish till 6.30, he has insomnia so he often goes to bed about 9, he literally only has about 2 hours to himself all day) and I suppose I have to respect that, whilst also pointing out that we need to spend a bit more time together in order to make our connection stronger. He's also running a lot, which is such a total 180 for him. I'm glad he's taking care of himself like that, he needs a healthy way to de-stress. Plus it means we can have something to do together.
Anyway, I am having a nice morning so far, drinking coffee outside enjoying the birdsong and how green things are. Later on I'll go for a run, maybe go to the garden centre to buy a pot plant because dh reminded me yesterday that he'd asked me to do this a while back and I've not had a chance. He's taking the kids to their activity this morning and then taking them out to lunch, it's a shame I'm not there but he'll get a chance to miss me. I did meet my deadline, thanks Alison. The end product was not great but it was supposed to be a draft anyway. I will do some more work today, outdoors enjoying the fresh air. I went to the pub last night and was chatting to some random bloke, I practiced validating when he was telling me about his problems instead of my usual know it all suggesting fixes or playing devils advocate approach. I will keep practicing validating, it's a good skill to have.
I hear what you are saying. I am glad you are still able to enjoy the simple pleasures and take care of yourself. I really struggled with that in my sitch.
I would also say that almost all of us, myself included, had a very good argument as to why our H would never have an A and how it's not possible. My H was (and is) the kindest, loving and most loyal person. People still remark on what a wonderful father and warm person he is when they get to know him. He spends his time off with the kids, carpooling them, tidying the house and running errands. We were so close and in love. It still doesn't make sense to me. .... yet it still happened. I didn't even believe it..... I have read so many women's stories here (MANY) and most them do not believe it's possible either. And then a couple months (or years) later we learn, yes it did happen. Nobody wants to believe it. Something to really think about.
I don't know your H at all and of course I have no proof. I just have been reading the patterns here for years. So that is why I put it in the hypothetical: if I could verify it (which I cannot) would that change what you do right now? Have you thought about that?
I ask this because we read here that we should follow the rules regardless, which includes working on detachment, GAL and 180s. No R talks, no initiating contact and letting them go. Also, most women would not allow for cake eating or an affectionate relationship with their H while in an A. If you do not know there is an A, it is better to assume that there is.
A or no A, I get the sense your H knows he can come back home at any time. I am not sure that will help you. What is his incentive to make changes?
Blu
“Forgiveness liberates the soul. It removes fear. That is why it is such a powerful weapon.” – Nelson Mandela
I'm not sure it would change what I'm doing really if he was having an A. But then I don't think he'd be paying me that much attention if he was in that obsessive stage anyway. And I'm sure you're correct that nobody wants to see it. But in any case, an A is really just a symptom of problems in a marriage anyway, and I agree that we have had those for some years now.
His incentive is that he wants to be a better person. He's told me that several times, which is why I told him the other day that I do see him becoming a better person. I think he's frightened that if he comes back our marriage will slip back into old habits and he wouldn't be able to bear that. I told him that I didn't want that to happen either, and that I wouldn't want him to come back right now (though he knows I want to stay married to him). I really don't want to have any R talks from now on, I want the last time he said ILYB to be the last time he ever says that. So any R talks will have to come from him unless I decide I've had enough and give him an ultimatum. It might come to that, for now I'll be patient and work on my side of things.
I actually disagree about the no initiating contact thing, that's probably true just after BD and for a while afterwards I probably should have done that, but given I've been the distancer I feel like I need to initiate contact at least occasionally. When I do text him he usually texts right back, he didn't do that a few months ago, unless it was a question he'd often ignore it or not respond for a long time. If I call him he calls right back now, right now it feels quite equal in terms of who initiates contact and we both respond to each other. We lost sight of what each other was up to and lost interest in what the other person was doing, and it feels like we're rectifying that by taking an interest in each other's lives for the first time in a very long time. 180s for both of us. He's also said a few times that I don't really 'know' him (which is kind of funny given the walls he puts up and has put up for so long).
I was listening to a podcast about avoidant versus anxious attachment just now and it was fascinating, there was a bit about anxious people (i.e. dh) not wanting the avoidant person (i.e. me) to display strong emotion, even punishing them for it. Wow. Yes. And then there was a bit about the avoidant person needing the anxious person to show them love because the avoidant person would never ask even though they need it. Fascinating. There was a lot more in there, I need to listen to it a few times I think. Another podcast I was listening to was saying that when trying to work towards secure attachment, the anxious person needs to become more avoidant and the avoidant person needs to become more anxious, and that usually the pendulum swings a bit too far and then needs to be corrected back. Again, fascinating. Lots to think about.
I went to the garden centre and texted dh a few photos of potential plants and he liked the ones I chose. We had a few texts about the kids, he hung out and watched TV with ds2 which was nice. Later on he rang to chat, asked if I'd been for my run yet and said he'd like to go for a run when we meet up on Tuesday, but that he either wanted to meet up a bit later or to have a pint first so that he had a chance to sit down and chill out first since he's got to come straight from work. I think that was him acknowledging that he'd brought his work stuff to our date last week. Transitions have always been a big problem for him (travelling, particularly by plane with him was always horrendous in the past), so I can see a pattern there, in fact I've just realised that if I turn up somewhere and he's already there then he's usually ok as long as I'm on time, but if I'm somewhere and he arrives then he's often difficult. So maybe it's all transitions and not just some and sometimes it's not all to do with me.
You're doing well, Dilly. I think it's good that you're thinking all this through, and talking it over with your IC and that you're considering how equal the contact is and how much of your H's issues are to do with your marriage and how much are just to do with him. I guess at some point you need to decide if you want a man like him - you have a long long history, and he is making small changes, and the man he is now isn't capable of the marriage you want, though perhaps there are small signs he is moving in that direction. I get how you'd both be so afraid of going back to the past, and yet not quite able to take a leap of faith forward into a different future. Perhaps the holiday in April will be a real watershed point - both in terms of his work stuff being a bit less demanding at that point, and you both having a decent stretch of time together in a way that you haven't done for a long time. And April isn't that long away now. I think you might have a lot of clarity after that point.
Yes I think you're right, though maybe I shouldn't get my hopes too high, so far in this whole process I have done nothing but be too optimistic and have my hopes dashed. As my IC keeps telling me, expectations are built-in disappointments.
I read your thread and how you wished you had pushed for change earlier. I do too, when he did his mini BD 2 years ago and then came back, I wish so much I hadn't let him push things under the carpet but insisted on things changing then. Things did change a bit last year but I have no idea why, I thought that he was finally being a decent husband and when I asked him later he said he was 'trying', why couldn't he have continued trying? Or did he need me to try too but couldn't tell me? Or had he just given up? I don't know. I just know I wish so much I had insisted on change 2 years ago instead of getting to this excruciating place. Sometimes being an optimist is a bad thing...If he does want to come back I need to be understanding but not too forgiving. I'm a very forgiving person but that doesn't protect me from future harm and it doesn't help him change. One of the things I told the IC right at the start was that I wanted him to challenge me and to hold me to account. I will remind him of that next week. I feel like last week he was just validating me and that was annoying. He's made a few mistakes, like asking me early on how it would feel to be divorced (I wailed my eyes out and he felt bad), but I want him to continue to ask me difficult but not impossible questions.
When I went to the garden centre yesterday I had a flashback to this time last year when dh and I went to that garden centre together. He was very rude to me, kept picking plants I didn't like and trying to make out like he was some gardening expert when he has NEVER expressed the slightest interest in gardening whereas I've been into gardening for 25 years and have a lot of knowledge! He was so extremely rude to me at the checkout that I could tell an older lady at the till next to us really wanted to intervene (how humiliating). When we took the stuff out to the car he was again unbelievably unkind to me and I could see this poor lady wanting to talk to me about how unacceptable his behaviour was (that was the worst part, not only having witnesses but seeing through someone else's eyes just how unreasonable his behaviour was), and I ended up walking off and catching the bus back.
I am still trying to puzzle that time out. I don't know if it's helpful or not to mention that his mum (the one who had an affair, ran off with another man and ended up abandoning dh and his siblings) is really, really into gardening. Can't help but feel it's linked somehow...
Anyway, I thought I would remind myself that although sometimes things were better last year (we had a lot more sex and he was a lot more affectionate), there were still some hideous low points.
That sounds like a really really low point, Dilly. And I don't think you're wrong about the plants and the gardening being significant to him in a way that you can see, and perhaps he's not yet ready to admit to himself. How do you think he'd have explained or justified his behaviour to himself or you at that time?
And no - best not to have expectations for the behaviour of other people. I fall into that trap myself, and it's hard and almost always leads to disappointment. But I think you're seeing things very clearly, and as time passes you will see them more clearly still - especially once your H's work settles down and you see him a bit more often in April. And whatever information you do get, I think you'll be able to act on it.
So I texted him a bunch today about ds2's match and stuff. He was very short in his replies. I rang him in the evening and no reply. I tried again an hour later. Then I texted him later saying he must be too busy to ring me back and I hope he got his work done. Then I just got really mad and sent him a rude text, I was in the middle of dishing up dinner, I'd had a couple of glasses of wine and I have had some extremely busy days, my head was not calm at all. And Blu's post and my IC's comment got under my skin, plus the stuff about the garden centre must have been swirling round my head since yesterday.
He texted back saying how dare I and that he'd been out for a run and injured himself again and not to ring back. I said I was sorry and I was in a strop dishing up dinner to ungrateful teens (ds1 refused to join me and ds2, I think he's trying to finish up homework and has job stuff to sort out, I think he's stressed). He rang me back a bit later and we mostly smoothed things over and discussed ds2's match. Then he rang me back half an hour later and said he'd calmed down properly and we chatted again. Then I came on here and read what I'd written about the garden centre and decided to ring dh and tell him about that. I was quite calm, I just said I'd had a flashback and that I wasn't expecting an apology but it was a year ago and it was a painful memory for me. He said he had no recollection of it, but that he knew he was capable of being nasty. I said that I had also played a part in the situation (like years of putting up with his anger and either being defensive or hiding instead of being assertive and/or empathetic) and that I was sorry for my role in it. He also said that maybe if it was a year ago then he was upset about me going away without him (Easter holidays have been Peak Abandonment for him, he usually has to work and the kids have lots of time off school so we've been away for the last 4 years without him then). I said I knew it was difficult for him when I went away at Easter with the kids. Then we chatted about ds2's birthday party and ds1's job stuff.
I feel like this was progress for me, to actually be honest instead of hiding from him. I've hidden for so long that it's automatic, but gosh, who wouldn't be angry in the face of that? His behaviour was entirely unacceptable, but I spent so long playing the victim instead of being a grownup. I have to own that. Another thing I've read/heard in podcasts is that distancers think they're just fine and dandy and that their relationship is ok and why is their partner making such a fuss and being so horrible. Guilty.
Quite proud of myself actually, I was quite calm (helps I'm knackered, lol). And proud of dh as well, him admitting the Easter thing is a 180. He has been awful to me every March/April for years now so maybe he's joined the dots at last. Makes me feel doubly glad he's coming for part of our next holiday. I think you're right, Alison, about this April being a revelatory period. Must not expect too much, but there needs to be some movement somehow.
I mean, it's not great you sent him a rude text message and assumed the worst of him - but it is also not distancing. You had stuff on your mind, you didn't feel great about it, and you let him know. Perhaps there are better ways, but you can learn those. The impulse to hide away and pretend everything is fine is a strong one to resist.
And it seems like he was making the effort - he rang you and let you know when he was ready to talk. He took some responsibility and has obviously been reflecting on things and taking what you said into account. And you signalled pretty clearly that as well as making your own changes you're also changing your standard in what type of behaviour you will tolerate from him going forwards.
I travel a fair bit for work. Not constantly, but at least once a month or so. And for years, whenever I had to go away and spend the night in a hotel, I would be VILE to H the night before. I'd think I was asking for comfort or special closeness, and he'd feel pressured and pestered and like not only was he being left with the kids, but also had to deal with my emotional needs before and after. I can't say I did this consciously, but looking back I can also see that I picked fights because it was a pretty reliable way to get solid and undivided attention from him. And it was all because (though I didn't realise that at the time) going away from home on my own and leaving my family behind triggered some really old traumatic stuff about being put in care as a child that I had never dealt with. I feel really sorry for my H having to put up with that all those years. And he did try to tell me he thought it was my childhood stuff, and I'd get really angry and say he wasn't taking my needs seriously. I know he felt like whatever he did was never enough. And I regret it such a lot. And I wish it hadn't taken me so long to understand what was going on with me. I hope your H realises before it is too late. If it's any consolation, if he's anything like me (and it sounds like we might be a little bit similar) he's probably internally such a mess and craving affection and attention and utterly unable to trust it when he gets it. It is miserable and makes him unfit for marriage and you can't fix it. But perhaps he is on the way to resolving it himself.
