I need to think these things through myself. With the best will in the world, my H is stressed and anxious and short on sleep and doesn't have much in the way of domestic comfort at the moment. And he isn't a particularly skilled communicator. I'm naturally better (my work is in this area) and I've been in psychotherapy for two years, which of course has had its effect. He's also sensitive to the thought of being disrespected or laughed at, which means humour when used badly can backfire. He probably is going to be difficult and impatient and snappy with me for a while yet to come - and that isn't the same as verbal abuse - and I am trying to think through for myself what an assertive response from me would look like.
Maybe we could both experiment and see what works best? Yesterday: dh came home super early and went off to the gym, I took the kids out and he met me there for a walk. Then we went out for a mother's day lunch, we had a nice time all together. Then the kids went off to the shops together and we walked home so dh could go back to work for a few hours (final day). I got a hug goodbye but I haven't had a kiss on the lips since that one time a week ago or so. The walk was ok, he was just talking about work politics and what might happen (he's less optimistic of proper change). I listened and validated and asked questions. We talked about the social run and he said that he thought my friends were being fake cheerful somehow. I said they were just excited to see each other, just like I was, and they are an enthusiastic bunch. They're also quite physically demonstrative, and I'm not sure he's comfortable with that at all! I'm not sure he's capable of taking off his competitive hat and just chatting, he's been competitive for so long he doesn't know how not to do it, even when it's a noncompetitive environment.
I know he's really tired but I could feel he was more distant yesterday, and I felt myself being more distant too. I'd like to know how to get back to where we were a week or so ago when I felt more comfortable being open with him. I also feel really under the weather today with a headache and stomach ache, so I'm just going to park these thoughts and feelings for now.
I hope you're feeling better soon - headaches and stomach aches are the worst. I think we're in different parts of the UK but there are a lot of viruses going around right now.
Do you think when your husband gets competitive or critical (it sounds like he really needed to share that he disliked or disapproved of your friends) a different approach might work? It sounds like you were defending your friends or even yourself for liking them and enjoying their company. I was thinking of what Flying Solo was saying on her thread about responding to her husband's criticism and the way that has made things easier for her and might even have encouraged a change in his behaviour.
My therapist once advised me to respond to barbed remarks and critical comments from my H with a very mildly expressed 'you might be right' - then go away and think about it on my own, decide if I want to make any changes, then make them without further discussion with him. Obviously if he asked me for something in particular, 'I want you to stop seeing your friends who I don't like' then I'd respond directly, but otherwise, I'd just acknowledge he'd spoken, acknowledge the possibility that he might have said something useful to me, but not engage with it verbally further. No defending myself, or justifying my choices, or explaining myself, or anything like that. What also helps when he's moaning about something that isn't really anything to do with him is to gently say, 'can you tell me what you want?' - if he just wants me to listen to him whinge, well, I might or I might not depending on my own needs at that time - but it is a phrase that reminds him he is an adult responsible for working out what he needs and expressing that, rather than just criticising me relentlessly whenever he's uncomfortable in some way.
When I remember to do these two things (which is not often - I tend to get very upset and reactive around his criticism) it helps. It does sound like your husband was out of sorts, and snappy, and uncomfortable seeing you with your friends, and perhaps uncomfortable with what your friends might think of him and your situation - and rather than dealing with that himself, he was dumping those feelings on to you. It must have really bothered him for him to bring it up the day after.
Ugh, I have had a horrible couple of sleepless nights and yesterday with stomach pains, just getting slowly better now. It makes me feel weak and needy and like I need someone to come and take care of me. I'm not quite sure why I feel like dh should do this, because he never has. Once when the kids were tiny and I was throwing up the whole day and struggling to care for them I begged him to come home early and he came home at 5.30pm...And then I remember that, and then I remember all the times he hasn't been there for me when I needed him and it's pretty unbearable. So I simultaneously want him to care for me and then reject him if he tries to ring and be nice to me, and I go into full on self pity nobody-loves me-mode. I said a few not very nice things to him yesterday, we kind of made up later on but I just texted and apologised for it this morning.
You're right, I was defending my friends, even though I've been trying hard to be assertive not defensive. It was pretty overwhelming for him, I can see that. He did ask about a few of the individual friends I talk about quite a bit, I just think in person it was too much to have so many people about (I would have found that too if it had been his friends I was just meeting, but there's usually alcohol involved with his friends lol). I could have handled it a lot better, I think I felt like he was shutting me out again so I was shutting him out and we were both reverting to bad habits. Something to think about for new improved me to do better in future. I really want to tell him about my dream but I have to feel comfortable enough to do it because every time I tell someone about it I cry.
We've had a few nice texts today, dh is exhausted still after working at the weekend and having work social events last night and tonight, he said he'd try to catch up on sleep tomorrow afternoon and we're meeting on Thursday night. So I hope that will go well.
Oh Dilly, it's always worse when you are ill and wanting to be coddled a bit. That's not a bad thing. But it's probably too much to expect your H to do that for you now - especially as he's never been able to do that for you.
What was he like when things were going well? Has he always been so obsessed with his own life and work and unable to unselfishly care for you? What would him caring for you look like, in his language?
Yes I agree that it's too much to expect, especially as he never did much before, I think the physical distance is just much harder when you're under the weather. And I seem to have had my body misbehave far more than normal in the last 7 months! (stress? plus hormones, weight loss, etc)
I think caring for me looks like acts of service, cooking a nice dinner, filling my car up, that sort of thing. And he still does that sort of thing occasionally when he has the opportunity. I think it's got less and less over the years as he's got busier and busier and worked harder and longer hours, and he felt unappreciated so thought why bother appreciating me.
I really wish I hadn't been so needy because it turned into one of those circular sessions where we both say not very nice, completely unconstructive things to each other. I will apologise properly to him about my words and tell him I intend not to use them in future. I want to be more positive in what I ask for, not rehash old arguments which go nowhere.
Dh is hungover after a very late and alcohol filled work dinner last night, he now has to take his mum to lunch and then hopefully he can catch up on sleep so he's nice to be with tomorrow evening. I'm kind of glad I don't have to see him today actually! I wish he didn't drink so much, I think he wishes that too. I don't want him to reach the stage of harming his health, though he has told me a few times the old chestnut of 'you've got to die sometime you might as well die happy'. Ugh. I'm not sure he believes that though I'm not sure he knows how to cut down or give up his crutch. I told him he's given up his wife before wine, there was too much truth in there to be comfortable.
Anyway, I have a nice busy day planned, lots of productive work, seeing a friend for a class, taking ds2 to an appointment later, a counselling appointment, going to cook myself a proper dinner and get lots of gardening done. I should get started.
I'm glad you're feeling a bit better and that you've got some nice things planned for yourself today. You've been at this longer than I have, but I've noticed that I can deal with the marriage situation and the sadness and uncertainty perfectly well most days, but then if there's something else - me feeling sick, or a problem at work, or the kids being difficult - then it's the marriage situation that starts to attract all of my sadness even though it hasn't changed that much. It's just the last straw sometimes. If you're an Acts of Service person it isn't surprising you feel a bit emotionally neglected as he's not there to show you love in that kind of way. Do you think he'd understand all his working to be a way of making you all financially secure and a kind of Act of Service? It sounds like it's more of an obsession or a crutch than anything else, but I guess it could be both, to him.
Do you know what your H's love language is?
We did the quiz together a few weeks before he moved out. His is Acts of Service - hands down. Mine is Words of Affirmation and Physical Touch. I know for a long time he would busy himself elsewhere in the house cleaning or doing some domestic task and I would be waiting in the bedroom for him feeling horrifically rejected and like he was avoiding me and being deliberately evasive. Some nights I would come home from work exhausted and I'd really want a hug and a conversation, and he'd put me in a room on my own and bring me a drink and leave me to it, and I'd feel like an animal that had been locked in a hutch - though he was trying to give me quiet and space because that's what he'd want in that situation. I don't know if we need to understand each other better or we're just not, at a basic level, very compatible. I've been working on doing Acts of Service for him - in the hope it communicates my love for him in the way that he understands it - but that leaves me with a lot of vulnerable and resentful feelings to process.
Yes, it's the final straw, exactly. And feeling unloved and alone and abandoned is just the pits.
I think the acts of service is HIS LL, not mine. So for years he would do those little things for me and I would ignore them, that must have been hurtful. And when I did stuff for him I did it grudgingly, so my 180 is doing stuff for him swiftly and willingly. I'm not sure if his other LL is words of affirmation or gifts, so I try to do both (affirmation does not come easy). My other 180 is thanking him every time he does something for me, whether it's a nice date at a nice pub or him coming over at the weekend.
My LL are physical touch and quality time I think. Both very scarce right now, and both things he has given me less and less of over the years. Also why I asked him for a proper hug after every meeting, and also why I asked him for the weekly date and also I am fairly insistent on seeing him at least for a short time each weekend. He has met that though the physical touch hasn't been as much as I'd like.
I'm trying hard to see his working so hard as an act of service, that's one thing I need to apologise for saying to him yesterday. I feel soooooo resentful of him choosing his job over his family, I really really struggle with that and have done for a long time. But expressing that isn't helpful, I would be better thanking him for working so hard for his family and our financial security. I have been expressing this more in the last few months but I need to step it up a gear. I know he gets all kinds of other ego boosting benefits and so on from his job, but fundamentally him working hard is part of what he prides himself on so I should appreciate him for that too. Something to keep 180ing on, being grateful to him for working hard even though it robs his family of HIM. Really not easy...
That sounds really really hard. And there's perhaps a boundary to be made there too, about being authentic to your own feelings.
It sounds like your true feelings are a mixture - you appreciate that he's a hard worker, but you also really resent the fact that his working patterns have negatively impacted his relationship with you and the children and that he doesn't seem to appreciate that or be willing to make a change to benefit his family. Would it help things for you to fake gratitude when actually there's a whole lot of very reasonable resentment in there too?
I don't know what the answer is. I only ask because I am mulling over the same thing myself. I am trying to show gratitude too - because I know H has felt unappreciated. But there are things he's done, and is still doing, that have really caused harm and he's not able to acknowledge them. And I am really frustrated about that. I want to be honest, not fake. And I know being honest doesn't mean sharing every single thought and feeling that goes through my head with H and expecting him to deal with it all to my timescale.
Very hard. How anyone makes a marriage work is beyond me. I hope you enjoy your garden today. It's raining here but I am going to get the puppy out on a walk anyway because I need the space.
Yes, there's a difference between being open and vulnerable and being so brutally honest you hurt the other person. Judging that difference particularly when one or both of you are upset is tricky. I suppose it helps to know the other person's sore spots so you try to avoid them as much as possible. I'm not sure I did that on Monday, part of the reason I want to apologise.
I absolutely have a mixture of feelings: on the one hand I'm proud of his career success through hard work and determination, and I'm thankful he's provided well for his family. But that is so mixed up with me feeling like he's chosen his job over his family that I have a really hard time expressing appreciation because of that. Maybe I have to separate the two in my head more, the way he probably does. And it remains my one greatest resentment which I'm having trouble letting go of, partly because it's only got worse since he left! But I cannot change the past, I have to forgive him for his role in the past and see that I also contributed towards it to some extent. I also know that his job is not really in line with his values (he has said this last year when he was clearly struggling with it) but he's having difficulty letting go, of losing face, of not getting his ego fed, of what his future will look like without his current role. And me reminding him that he's not living up to his values is NOT helpful, he needs to sort this out by himself and I will listen if he needs me to, but he won't if he feels attacked. So far I've said 'you're a good man, I believe you will make good decisions' to many things he's talked about (including whether he wants to stay married or not). I will keep saying that or something along those lines, and hope that he lives up to the words.
Useful session with my IC, we talked a lot about how hard it is being vulnerable and doubly hard when the person has so much power to hurt you by leaving forever, but that you can't have intimacy without vulnerability. And how maybe I could ask dh for other ways to meet my needs (because saying I need a hug when he isn't there is not much use to him and probably makes him feel guilty and useless). I listened to a super helpful podcast (last one of Relationship Alive) where they discuss: saying how you feel, saying what you need, then explaining how it will help. I can do the first 2 but the 3rd seems useful in actually spelling it out for the other person instead of just being 'needy'. I am going to listen to this podcast a few times I think and maybe get the book, it had lots of 'complete the sentence' activities where you literally start the sentence with a script and then finish it off yourself, the rationale being that if you are triggered you won't remember anything complicated but you might remember a couple of words which propel you in the right direction. And we also talked about how maybe I could think about what the relationship needs instead of each of us as individuals (we have both complained about our own needs not being met for so long and neglected the Us in all this). And we talked a lot about acceptance and uncertainty, which every time I think I'm ok with I'm suddenly not again...I have a lot to think about as usual.
