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Hello all,
I have been lurking on this site for just over a month now and figured it was time to share my story. There is an incredible amount of good information here and i'm already thankful for the vets that continue to post and support the rest of us. I find A LOT of similarities in other stories in regards to MLC and wayward wife. However, there are few differences in mine - that so far make it a little unique. So here goes..

In August 18' my wife had a conversation with me where she said "she wasn't happy". I don't particularly remember this conversation but I don't deny it occurred. I probably just thought it was another 'fight' and after making-up it was over. I've since been informed this was a small or 'pre' BD. Starting in October my wife started going out more with here single and/or divorced friends. I thought nothing of it. We have two kids S9 & S5 and she has been an amazing mother to these children (basically to her detriment). I have always had my outlet (golf) and i used it often (too often). Through October, November, and December she was continuing to go out and party till early in the mornings (2-3 times a month). This seemed okay at the time as she would let me golf during the day and I would be home to take care of the kids as she went out with her friends. Again, I still didn't see the signs. Part of me was actually happy that she finally deciding to get out of the house and do something. From my perspective I have been trying to build our relationship with her for a couple of years (yes I should have tried much harder). I always felt like priority number 5 in a house of 4. We have one child with some special needs (nothing too dramatic but S9 has been A lot of work since day 1) and we've basically just became good co-parents and both let our relationship take a complete backseat. We both also work full time.

Then late December (I think 21st or 22nd) I was sitting in my home office and she says "do you mind if I go out this Saturday with "the girls" again? As it was so close to the holidays I was just a little taken back. So I said "huh? Where are you going?" And then she said "A BAR!" in a rebellious tone I had never heard before. Threw me off, but I said "sure go ahead". But it just didn't sit right this time. So I started to think and worry a little about what was happening. I still didn't understand the full scope - but something was up. I immediately decided to just invest in the kids that night a) because it was the holidays and we needed to do something and b) because I figured doing the 'family thing' without her would get her attention a little. So I took the kids all over the city that night looking at every major Christmas light display we could find. Posting each stop on Facebook to make sure she would see. As the next couple of days go by we both get invested in the holidays - but I can still feel something is up, but being naive I thought maybe it was just me overthinking things again. But my gut said something was up. So we're kinda walking around the issue/subject but do discuss that we need "to talk". We agree to get through the holidays and save the deep discussion for after the 1st. She goes back to work on the 26th and as she's leaving I just feel weird. So I call her on the way to work and say "Hey, we have our issue right? And we're going to work on those and get through it - but this doesn't have to do with ANYONE else - Correct?!?!?! She immediately says "no, there is no one else" this is about us. I would not do that!" This time, I'm just not convinced. I go up stairs and spend a few hours dissecting the phone bill to discover over 400 texts and some calls to a guy I don't know. When she comes home I ask her if we're going to talk tonight. She says about what? I don't even want to discuss that subject anymore. There isn't anything to talk about. Then remind her that I'm the one that pays and has access to the phone bill. Her jaw drops! So I press and she admits that she probably crossed a line by having this contact (EA) not including me in this group of friends, etc. But that NOTHING physical happened. We argue fight late into the evening about about OM and the situation but it's all denial. I tell her its still very wrong and is an EA. I discuss ending the relationship but we ultimately agree that we can work through this. 2 days later I'm leaving town to visit family. I'm a trust but verify kinda guy. So I set up a recorder before I leave. We are texting/talking while I'm gone. She is continuing to deny anything physical and even wants to talk when I get home. She says I'll feel better about the situation once we do. I say okay. I return, we have a talk she fully admits what she did was wrong but it still wasn't what I thought. I believe her, we agree to work on 'us' and put this behind us. The next morning, I pull my tapes to find out that as soon as Ieft to go out of town she called everyone that knew and created a cover-up. PA CONFIRMED! (one time physical).

During these discussions we have a lot of conversations about why she isn't happy. And I fully recognize what she is saying and understand my responsibility in the downfall of our relationship. Although I know it's not all me, I do/did accept the lions share of the issues and commit to full change. I immediately book myself into IC as I do have some unresolved father issues to deal with, as well as other issues <-- this is important later. The point is; I did not let her know that I had found out the truth. I started to make my changes becoming a much better father and husband all while holding in the betrayal and lies. but I was also continuing to record some conversations. I did this for 2 reasons. I wanted to understand if there was more, if it was ongoing etc. I also wanted some time to process all the information and decide if this was a deal breaker. I continued my efforts and I know the better husband/father was fully recognized by her. That being said; I felt like I was doing all the work, and with what I knew that did not seem fair. This continued for over 3 weeks but I kept up my changes. I was able to do this because of those "other issues" I spoke about earlier. 2 years prior I had my own affair(s) I ended them on my own, carried the guilt figured it was just something I would have to live with. But I was committed to never doing it again. Therefore, I was able to empathize with her actions. I could put myself in her shoes. I could recognize that it really wasn't about me/her. It was about a relationship that was lacking and needed work.

Now.. even with this empathy the pressure cooker was still building steam. She had another "girls night" coming up and because I had heard phone conversations I knew that there Might be a little more to this evening than just the girls. I had also confirmed at least one more EA, and suspicion of other PA affairs in the past (timing still unknown). All seem to be short lived and nothing too serious. A little more than one night stands but not necessarily ongoing. Accept one major EA with a guy that is married and lives relatively far away (he is never there on 'girls night'). But you're getting the point... it's not JUST ONE. My affair was not just one either - so again, i began to rationalize/justify and figure that I can handle all of this. We just need to take the steps to end this M, come clean and build are 2nd M together. So.. the night of girls night, just before she leaves (the pressure inside me is at an all time high). I walk into her office, look her directly in the eyes and tell her "I know the truth!" She tries to deny one more time but my obvious dead pan stair is pretty convincing... I divulge the details that solidify my information. I also tell her that I can forgive her because I too have strayed multiple times in the past. AND THAT IS WHY I'M IN THERAPY. I haven't done anything in 2yrs, I don't ever want to do it again, and I want to fully understand why I did it the first time. We can do this together. We can build a second M that is more than we thought possible. In short.. her reaction not quite what I hoped. She immediately turned it on me, played the victim and insisted on continue to go out that night. I begged her not to leave. Please stay and let's get through this! She left. So.. this was essentially BD. I had also divulged some information about the other EA which lead her then to understand how I might be getting the information. when she returned (the next day) she was silent and would not talk. Just completely shut down. I continued to try and talk through it. Explain how we've both messed this up, but we can both fix it. Shes reluctant continues to act like the ONLY victim and asks if I 'bugged' her office. I admit to it all (as my approach now is to get it ALL on the table and move forward). She decides this is such an invasion of privacy that she doesn't think she can get over it. Over the next couple of days she basically re-BD's and pushes to end the relationship.

This is where the begging and pleading ensues from me... at least 2 full days of it. But she starts to show signs of coming over to my side. We do family stuff, and although it's weird you can tell she trying to process if this is possible. So I continue to push and 'work' the situation. I make some headway and although she doesn't fully commit she's not walking out the door yet. Basically I agree to just give her some time/space to process. So at least a week goes by and she still won't open up. She asks some questions about my affairs and I answer them all. But she won't engage in a two way conversation about her situation(s) or the future of the relationship. She says she needs space and that she thinks she needs to move out. I push to resolve this without her moving out, we go to my IC together to discuss how to give her space while staying in the house. I do everything requested (including removing all recording devices). Buy her a detector that can find the devices for her assurance, etc. But she insists that she is still going to look for a place to live as she doesn't feel comfortable in the house. Couple of weeks go by and it just feels like we're in limbo. I'm working on it, she isn't. She is still researching places to live (although she is taking her time). But I"m fine with that (although I'm still pursuing a little as I have yet to find DB). BUT....

There is another 'girls night' coming up. At first I"m okay with it. I feel like I need to give her the space and although I don't really 'trust' her - she wouldn't just jump right back into this - Right?. Note: I did previously confirm (before removing devices) that she ended the PA on her own because I found out. However, there was a chance through mutual friends that he was going to be at the same concert for this 'girls night'.. We had agreed (multiple times) that while we were working through this we would NOT be sleeping with other people. But again something didn't feel right. So I took other precautions that night. She did not hook up with the original PA - but she did hook up with some other completely random guy!!! HOLY CRAP WHO IS THIS WOMAN?

The next day I do not confront her. Again I decide to hold the information (not really sure why this time) probably just shock. We have a small family vacation coming up in the next couple of days. so I finally open up about the situation to a couple close friends and some close family. I explain that although I believe this is MLC I think I need to do something. I start researching.. I go on the vacation try to fake it, but towards the end the pressure is building and I just start to pull away. I have now decided that she needs to move out but not sure when I'm going to tell her. And not sure if I'm going to explain why.. We return from vacation and she asks why I was distant. I said, I've been doing a lot of thinking and I think you are right.. this is not working as I had hoped. I still seem to be the only one actively working on the relationship. So I think you should move out, and I would like you to be out in 30days! - but I do not disclose my knowledge of her activities that night.

Essentially present day... She has found an apartment, moves out the 1st-2nd week in April. I still want to save this M - but feel the only way it can be saved is by 'letting her go'. Which I've now done physically by asking her to move out, but have not accomplished this emotionally. I'm now using the LRT while she is still in the house. We are cordial and polite in front of the kids but no small talk. No relationship talk. She has approached me twice now asking why we can't be more "friends" and I explain that she fired me as her husband. Until she is ready to work on this relationship, we really don't have one. We need to figure out how to get the kids through this.

Thoughts? Did I do too much to fast? It feels like the right moves for a MLC/WW as she seems to be in fantasy land and the only way to lift the fog is to let her go and see if the grass is actually greener.

Now, as I said, i'm still completely attached emotionally. I will now need to start that process - but A lot has happened in this sitch in a very short amount of time.

Yours truly,
P_Jam


H(me:) 44
W: 45
T: 16yrs
M: 13
S: 9
S: 6
Pre BD (not really recognized by either) 8/18
PA 11/18
PA suspected 12/22/18 (Denied)
PA confirmed 12/28/18
PA #2 (Different) 2/16/19
S: 4/7/2019

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Welcome to the board

Sorry you are here but you will meet some wonderful people here and get some great advice.

Yes first thing you should do is be sure to read the Divorce Remedy (DR) book by MWD
http://www.mcssl.com/store/mwdtc2014/
http://divorcebusting.com/sample_book_chapters.htm

and Michele's articles
http://www.divorcebusting.com/articles.htm

You may be on moderation now, post in small frequent replies and stay on this thread until you reach 100 posts
(for your thread, you can also post on other peoples threads to give support).
Especially on this Newcomers forum, where the posting activity is very active,
and your posts can quickly fall to the bottom of the page or even several pages down.
Keep journaling and asking questions - people will come!
Most important - POST!

Get out and Get a Life (GAL).

DETACH.


Believe none of what he or she says and half of what he/she does.

Have NO EXPECTATIONS.

Take care of yourself, breathe, eat, sleep, exercise.

Take the parts of this advice that you need and don't worry if I have repeated something that you have already done.

Here are a few links to threads that will help you immensely:

I would start with Sandi's Rules
A list of dos and don'ts for the LBS (left behind spouse)
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2553072#Post2553072

Going Dark
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=50956#Post5095

Detachment thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2538414#Post2538414

Validation Cheat Sheet: Techniques and tips on how to validate (showing your walk away spouse (WAS) that you recognize and accept his or her opinions as valid, even if you do not agree with them)
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2457566#Post2457566

Boundaries Cheat Sheet
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2536096#Post2536096

Abbreviations
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2553153#Post2553153

For Newcomer LBH with a Wayward Wife by sandi2
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2545554#Post2545554

Resource thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forum...ain=57819&Number=2578224#Post2578224

Stages of the LBS
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1964990&page=1

Validation
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=191764#Post191764

Pursuit and Distance
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2483574#Post2483574

The Lighthouse Story
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2484619#Post2484619

Your H or W is giving you a GIFT.
THE GIFT OF TIME.
USE it wisely.

Knowledge is Power - Sir Francis Bacon


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P_Jam, I missed your thread, just caught it on page 2. I will catch up on your sitch later today.


M(53), W(54),D(19)
M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017
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PJ,

I am sorry you are here but you came to the right place. You started off doing a lot of the wrong things but it looks like you are headed in the right direction. Letting her go to get her back is the right move right now. A random hookup is very concerning and it sounds like she has some major issues to deal with right now.

You didn't mention your ages and how long you have been together. You should include a signature to help us better understand your situation.

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Originally Posted by P_Jam
However, there are few differences in mine - that so far make it a little unique.


Each situation is unique, yet they almost all have a lot of commonalities as well, including yours. OK so you know you have a lying cheater on your hands. Unfortunately you have been as well, one thing you neglected to mention is if W knew about it at the time or did you just recently disclose that to her? The reason I ask is if you told her before, that may have been the beginning of the end. It is extremely difficult (sometimes even impossible) to rebuild trust after something like that. She may see her current actions as "getting back at you". Of course that is a poor way of handling it, but WAS's minds work in strange ways.

One thing I would suggest is to stop the snooping. Once you know you've got a lying cheater on your hands then there's really no point in continuing to snoop. Snooping will just drive her farther undercover with her activities. It gets increasingly difficult to find things out and as you get more desperate in your snooping you will leave a trail of crumbs and she will see it and be even more resentful.

Quote
Thoughts? Did I do too much to fast?


Well, yeah I think you're trying to control a situation that's out of your control and you've been very hasty in your actions. Very hot and cold. One minute you're trying to beg and plead with her and the next you're telling her to hit the road and don't look back. You can imagine what kind of message you're sending to her. That said, she's a wayward and tough love is about the only thing that has any impact on them, so I don't disagree with your asking her to leave.

Quote
It feels like the right moves for a MLC/WW as she seems to be in fantasy land and the only way to lift the fog is to let her go and see if the grass is actually greener.


Yes, but you can't do things hoping for that kind of a reaction from her. Don't kick her out to "wake her up" or "teach her a lesson", you have to do things because they are what is right for YOU and the kids without concern with how it impacts her.

Quote
Now, as I said, i'm still completely attached emotionally.


Have you read DR? What are you doing to GAL?


Me: 60 w/ S18, D24, D27

M: 21 years; BD: 06-14-12; S: 09-10-12; D final: 03-17-14; XW:57
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Originally Posted by Steve85
P_Jam, I missed your thread, just caught it on page 2. I will catch up on your sitch later today.


Steve I look forward to your insight
Originally Posted by LH19
PJ,

I am sorry you are here but you came to the right place. You started off doing a lot of the wrong things but it looks like you are headed in the right direction. Letting her go to get her back is the right move right now. A random hookup is very concerning and it sounds like she has some major issues to deal with right now.

You didn't mention your ages and how long you have been together. You should include a signature to help us better understand your situation.


LH19, noted. I have updated my signature.


H(me:) 44
W: 45
T: 16yrs
M: 13
S: 9
S: 6
Pre BD (not really recognized by either) 8/18
PA 11/18
PA suspected 12/22/18 (Denied)
PA confirmed 12/28/18
PA #2 (Different) 2/16/19
S: 4/7/2019

Joined: Mar 2019
Posts: 119
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Another Stander,
Thanks for you comments/questions!

She did not know at the time. It may have been my writing that confused you... but I disclosed my infidelity when I informed her that I knew her truth. It is where I made my line in the sand in regards to our relationship and that I didn't want anymore secrets and wanted to build a new relationship. Therefore, her original indiscretion is not revenge. However, the random hookup and acceleration of WW may be due to this new found information?

I totally agree, I know that these action in large me still trying to control the situation. The hot/cold passive aggression is also just the natural process as i began to unfold the different sets of information as well as discover DB and different 'strategies' based on my roller coaster of emotions. It was the WW "tough love" that helped me decide that she needed to move out. She was not working on the relationship while living in the house (felt like cake eating) and continued to lie and cheat. I wholeheartedly agree that asking her to move out was in part to teach her a lesson, but also to provide the opportunity of a "loss" as Sandi2 has suggested is necessary. Furthermore, when I found out about her original PA I did tell there that I would not allow that while living under this roof, she agreed. She broke that boundary/rule so I asked her to move out.. but the caveat is that she does not know I know she broke that rule. So I'm wondering if/when I should disclose that or not.

I know I need to do whats best for me (but I"m not sure yet what that is yet). I am working GAL, getting back into golf hanging with my friends, back in the gym, and spending a lot of time with my kids. Although my motives are off (still controlling) I guess I'm faking it until I make it. Trying to do my best to help break the 'fog' and create loss before she moves out in 3 weeks. Which is when I'll be forced to stop snooping (I'm hoping to let go before she leaves) but it's the hardest think I've every done, trying not to continue to snoop and figure out how bad this gets. I think a part of me hopes that I will get more information and reach a point where I'm just not interested in R.

Yes I have red DV.


H(me:) 44
W: 45
T: 16yrs
M: 13
S: 9
S: 6
Pre BD (not really recognized by either) 8/18
PA 11/18
PA suspected 12/22/18 (Denied)
PA confirmed 12/28/18
PA #2 (Different) 2/16/19
S: 4/7/2019

Joined: Feb 2017
Posts: 9,227
Likes: 309
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Yep. Early to mid 40s is when we typically see the girls gone wild activities on this board.

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Yes, all the signs are there for MLC "girls gone wild". Invisiline to straighten teeth, all types of skin/dermatology stuff to smooth skin. Obviously is really loving the attention from other men. Needing to feel sexy again (most likely all the things I didn't do a very good job at).


H(me:) 44
W: 45
T: 16yrs
M: 13
S: 9
S: 6
Pre BD (not really recognized by either) 8/18
PA 11/18
PA suspected 12/22/18 (Denied)
PA confirmed 12/28/18
PA #2 (Different) 2/16/19
S: 4/7/2019

Joined: Feb 2017
Posts: 9,227
Likes: 309
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PJ,

No judgement here but can I ask you why you stepped out on your W?

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Honesty, I'm not sure the root cause. There definitely was a long period of time where we had a very sexless marriage (it's not an excuse just fact). Although I believe there are other issues involved. Fear of rejection, power, boundary issues, etc.. I'm working through understanding this better now in IC. I regret it soooo much I cant explain the guilt I have felt. But part of my recovery was putting the information on the table. I was also very empathetic to my wife as I do know looking back that my infidelity was not her fault, and although a sexless marriage may have been a piece of it, it was not about her! This was my issue. I find some solace in realizing my ways and ending the affairs as well as not indulging 2yrs after (and our marriage was not that much better, although there was some more sex). But I was assuming that my wife would also have similar guilt and I had hoped that my sharing would help alleviate some of that in this situation. Maybe it alleviated ALL of it and that is why I am where I am - but I doubt that is the case. I believe it is just the current mind of a MLC/WW. Now obviously, only time will tell if she can get over my infidelity, but that won't even come into play until she returns from her current fog.

Whats interesting about my situation compared to others that I have read is; my wife is not particularly cold to me. She keeps wanting to be 'friends' and "act as if". However, if she is still having affairs I cannot do this. I know that she is scared/nervous for being on her own. I know that she still has love for me. But she is fully engulfed in feeling like there is something better out there, and that there is the 'perfect relationship'. When in fact she is not taking any responsibility for her own happiness, nor is she accepting any responsibility for issues in our relationship (not to take away from mine). I feel like she wants me around for the stability while she plays the field. I'm familiar with a lot of her EA/PA and I'm really not too concerned about being 'replaced' by these guys (one if he leaves is wife MIGHT turn into something more serious) but the rest is all attention and girls gone wild. If this is true, it feels like hope <-- but I know this is emotionally dangerous.

Which is why I'm a littler nervous for some of my actions. Again, it feels right to give tough love, but I will always wonder if I should have just let her stay in the house while we try to see what can happen. That being said; I know myself and if she continued with the affairs while still being with me, I'm not the guy to just sit and absorb that. I've been around for 16yrs through thick and thin, difficult child rearing and although I know I have neglected her, I also know that there is no competition to the rush she is feeling in these affairs. As I told her.. I will not be plan B.


H(me:) 44
W: 45
T: 16yrs
M: 13
S: 9
S: 6
Pre BD (not really recognized by either) 8/18
PA 11/18
PA suspected 12/22/18 (Denied)
PA confirmed 12/28/18
PA #2 (Different) 2/16/19
S: 4/7/2019

Joined: Feb 2017
Posts: 9,227
Likes: 309
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PJ,

In house separation rarely if ever works. You are doing the right thing to open the cage door and set her free into the wild. It's not an easy life out there for a single woman with two young children.

I hate to tell you PJ but right now you are plan B. The longer she knows it, the longer this plays out.

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LH,

I agree. That is why I have also already started LRT inside the house. I plan to go dark/grey as soon as she moves out and only discuss things necessary about the kids.

two days ago when she came to me about being "more friends" (small talk, how was your day, etc) I made it clear that is not where we are. She also seems to assume we will be spending quality family time together on the weekends and doing events. Although I did not address this specifically I believe I made it clear that would not be our relationship. She wants/needs space - She GETS space!

Frankly, because of what I know: Moving from a 2500sq ft house with large yard to a 3 bedroom apartment with two VERY active boys is going to be difficult, financially it will also be difficult (even with what I'm paying). The fact that I know there is still love there, and that she is making small steps to get IC (she called two DR's but they were not accepting new patients), the affect it will have on the kids as soon as the move happens. I know she has SOME regret about her random hook-up "what am I doing?, I didn't even know that guy. Why would I be doing this?" I'm hopeful that lifting the fog or rock-bottom maybe sooner rather than later. <-- silly I know.

At this point she still acts as if she is the only victim. She will say that; what she did was wrong BUT.. you cheated on me and lied to me for 2years! And you bugged me! <-- This is her stance! Still no real accountability. Maybe when she realizes the grass is not greener this will come?


H(me:) 44
W: 45
T: 16yrs
M: 13
S: 9
S: 6
Pre BD (not really recognized by either) 8/18
PA 11/18
PA suspected 12/22/18 (Denied)
PA confirmed 12/28/18
PA #2 (Different) 2/16/19
S: 4/7/2019

Joined: Feb 2017
Posts: 9,227
Likes: 309
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Yeah I think you are going to regret revealing all your cards this early in the process.

Yeah it is not uncommon for the WAS to want to be friends and do family things together. They will eat cake until the cows come home if given the choice.

Unfortunately my friends the fog lift and rock bottom are likely years away.

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Shaving their privates, their legs, grooming, better makeup, new/old perfume more frequently, wedding ring off, new clothes, spa treatments, msnicure/pedicure, new music, more dermatology appontments, yoga classes, weight loss programs. My WW once in the same conversation unawaringly said women do this to better take care of themselves, because in these situations they need to implement better self care, but also do it because it is what guys expect from them. Some women do it because they are in competition with other women.

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LH,
Call it denial, arrogance or both.. I currently have a hard time believing the 'fog' will last years. This does not mean she will come back to me. But I do believe she has already started to notice that her actions have a compulsive nature (not just moving on from me). She also doesn't like to be alone. IF she does start IC I think it will start to reveal that not everything going on in her mind is as she thinks it is. I also think that because our kids are still so young the significant lifestyle change she (we) are about to encounter as single parents is going to significantly affect her. I'm more familiar than most in the guys she is currently seeing and they may be around every other weekend when she doesn't have the kids, but they will not be there the rest of the time. She may continue with girls gone wild for a while, but my wife has only pulled away from the kids a little. She's a devoted mother. A little less now, but that was probably needed anyway.

My best guess is; she has been a little WW for about 1-2yrs at the most. Crossing boundaries here and there over a period of time. Then BD and turning it up a notch. I do believe you are correct, I would be in a better place if I didn't show all of my cards so early but good, bad or indifferent the other steps I've taken so far are going to help her see reality sooner rather than later. I'm not sure which came first WW or MLC but I believe i'm dealing with both. My wife NEVER wanted anything more out of life than being a mother. She's had that for 9yrs now and I believe she woke up one day and realized it's just not the fulfillment she expected. It's a TON of work and she never found her release like I did (which is one reason she blames me). Then she also realized she's getting older and body parts are not looking the same. Then she combined that with my neglect and pinned the root cause on me and the relationship, and started looking for the 'honeymoon' passion. The "its easy if it right relationship". She currently thinks the attention and 'bond' with these A's is reality, but we all know they are not. We've had our ups/downs. I have been a bit absent in our relationship - but I too have tried to resolve some of this in the past (although she doesn't recognize that right now). We have been VERY GOOD co-parents for 9yrs now. We have 2 wonderful young boys. I think she will feel a loss to the family structure in general. Again, none of this means that she will get over my infidelity but I am hopeful that if the fog lifts we can start to understand if the next step is possible or not. I'm pretty confident that I'm not the guy to wait/try for years. We'll see what happens here in the coming weeks/months but I doubt I can go beyond 3-6 months. I think the biggest hurdle to R is the work/process needed to actually rebuild trust and R. I'm worried that even if she realizes what she's lost and that the grass is not greener, she may not have the fortitude to actually do what is necessary to rebuild OUR relationship.

I don't know... maybe I'm just naive. But I do still see glimpses of the woman I married (although currently masked with anger) I recognized the cause of the MLC, and she may need to find herself again (or realized that motherhood isn't that bad either, when compared to being single with young kids at 45. I also know that our relationship was not as bad as she remembers. The girls gone wild is definitely not someone I recognized <-- this is 200% out of character, but I also know that she is not totally blind to that fact as well. She knows something is wrong, but has not yet recognized the issues are internal not external.

I have not doubt i'm still trying to control the situation. And it is out of my control, but there are still things that are in my control. Affecting the 'losses'. 180, etc. Things that continue to make her question her actions and decisions. I know I should be doing all of this for different reasons, and hopefully that just comes in time. As of now... the controlling aspects are the compulsion for me.


H(me:) 44
W: 45
T: 16yrs
M: 13
S: 9
S: 6
Pre BD (not really recognized by either) 8/18
PA 11/18
PA suspected 12/22/18 (Denied)
PA confirmed 12/28/18
PA #2 (Different) 2/16/19
S: 4/7/2019

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Okay question:

I've been reading through Kiro's incredible thread(s) - What I learned from my wife's MLC. I'm gaining some incredible perspective and feel more empathy then ever to lead with love. However, from above you can see i'm dealing with multiple EA/PA's some in the past some ongoing. Currently she does not have a steady PA that I'm aware of. But the original PA that launched BD is still in the picture. I just don't believe they are physical on a regular basis and it very well could have only been that once. However, the more they see/talk the more chance there is of more.

Now.. She does not know that I know she is still chatting with him. She also does not know that I know about random one night stand a few weeks ago. But this is what caused me to ask her to move out.

Because she does not know that I know.. I'm stuck between 180 (showing her what she's missing) and WW "tough love". In her mind I don't have a REASON for tough love. It might just look like more of the same.

I do believe I have a way of expressing that I know (or have a pretty good idea what happened that night). The other guy was married and there is talk that his wife found out about it (or somebody in that group did) and they are texting my wife. Therefore, it may be possible to disclose my knowledge without signaling the snooping. Someone told me..

I'm very inclined to try this. It does 2 things before she actually move out. Allows me to 'get it off my chest' a little. Allows your to think and acknowledge why my emotions seem so passive aggressive. Right now I'm still not pursuing and don't plan to but I also feel discouraged with the tough love sometimes, as it seems to come from nowhere.

Thoughts?


H(me:) 44
W: 45
T: 16yrs
M: 13
S: 9
S: 6
Pre BD (not really recognized by either) 8/18
PA 11/18
PA suspected 12/22/18 (Denied)
PA confirmed 12/28/18
PA #2 (Different) 2/16/19
S: 4/7/2019

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P,

If you are going to hold a person accountable they need to know why. You aren't doing her any good by just showing tough love without telling her why.

I think tough love is needed.


M:37 W:37
T:11 M:10
S17, S13, S10, S4
BD:06/28/17
OM confirmed 07/20/17
Recon the M 10/29/17
Working hard:2gether

Onward and forward

This process is not a sprint it's a marathon! Patience, Patience, Patience.
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Originally Posted by P-Jam
In her mind I don't have a REASON for tough love.
Actually, she does know. Just because you aren't articulating every instance to her doesn't mean she doesn't know. Who cares if you're snooping or you found out from the neighbors or whoever? YOU KNOW. That's enough. You don't have to prove anything. You don't have to play games.

You're trying to bend over backwards to disclose knowledge without signaling snooping? I feel like you're overthinking it.


H 34
W 29
BD 3/12/18
Divorce Busted Spring 19

It is not things that bother us, but the stories we tell ourselves about things.
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Logically I agree. However last time it just gave her a reason to turn it around and continue to avoid any accountability. I understand I have a right/reason but I do want it to be useful to my overall cause.


H(me:) 44
W: 45
T: 16yrs
M: 13
S: 9
S: 6
Pre BD (not really recognized by either) 8/18
PA 11/18
PA suspected 12/22/18 (Denied)
PA confirmed 12/28/18
PA #2 (Different) 2/16/19
S: 4/7/2019

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P,

I would consider having one more conversation with her stating you both made mistakes but you will not live in an open marriage. You can either work on the marriage together or she should move out. Make it clear that it is a full blown separation and that you will be taking the time to decide what you want in the future.

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Everything you do is for you and not to enact a reaction from your WW. You have to take the focus off of her.

Ok......You are now building your own house. And you are building it to protect you. Your W can't get in unless you let her in. She will see your strong house and wonder what's going on, so she will knock on the door to try and get you too come out. If that does not work, she will ask to come inside. She will try to get you to come out of this new house, using all kind of tempting tactics. All those attempts are called temp checking. If you come out of that house, your whole house will crumble and you will have to start building from the ground again. Where she's at in life, she doesn't care about your house, she only care about herself. Her getting in your new house of getting you to come out is all about knowing what's going on and keeping you in the place that makes her feel the most comfortable. When you stop looking out your window to see if she's interested, the faster you will heal.

This is your journey alone, you cant take your WW on it. We all know you will try, because we have done and been in that same position and frame of mind as you. But, the only thing that has ever worked was letting go and moving forward for all of us.

Letting go does not mean giving up. Letting go, is dropping the expectations of winning your WW back, and trying to control the outcome. Once you realize, the only thing you can control is yourself and you start acting in a manner that shows you can only control yourself, the faster your healing will take place.


M:37 W:37
T:11 M:10
S17, S13, S10, S4
BD:06/28/17
OM confirmed 07/20/17
Recon the M 10/29/17
Working hard:2gether

Onward and forward

This process is not a sprint it's a marathon! Patience, Patience, Patience.
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Originally Posted by P_Jam
Logically I agree. However last time it just gave her a reason to turn it around and continue to avoid any accountability. I understand I have a right/reason but I do want it to be useful to my overall cause.

What does her taking accountability look like to you?

You're point is that tough love is going to push her away? B/c the last time you did it she felt justified in having another affair b/c you were being mean?

If that's what you're getting at, you're never going to win that. The best thing you can do is totally change your attitude. I really like joejoe's post. Put yourself first, don' tolerate BS, and don't get sucked into fights. Go GAL and do your best to enjoy things and be genuinely happy. Continue working on your 180s.


H 34
W 29
BD 3/12/18
Divorce Busted Spring 19

It is not things that bother us, but the stories we tell ourselves about things.
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Steve, really interested to get your take on my sitch. I've read a lot of your posts on other threads and welcome your insight!


H(me:) 44
W: 45
T: 16yrs
M: 13
S: 9
S: 6
Pre BD (not really recognized by either) 8/18
PA 11/18
PA suspected 12/22/18 (Denied)
PA confirmed 12/28/18
PA #2 (Different) 2/16/19
S: 4/7/2019

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Some Journaling:

Had a decent weekend, I think I was able to find the balance between being rude/ignoring and being around/present with my wife without any pursuing. It felt like detaching with love. I hope this is a correct evaluation. Both kids were very sick with flu and it was all about working together to get through the days and nights with the kids. As usual, we did VERY well. We know how to co-parent! I'm still amazed at how much my wife is attached to the kids. I think it is good but it makes me curious if maybe she is not as far down the affair fog rabbit hole as others.

It was the first weekend of flag football for the boys but because they were sick they could not play. I went to pick up their Jersey's and meet their coaches. As it was the first game there was a lot of chaos and I ended up sticking around to help both coaches coach the kids throughout the games. I'm usually never the first one to volunteer to be head coach, but I love jumping in and adding value as the assistant. Which is what I did again this time. Frankly, I think the other parents felt I was better than the head coach. It was a weird moment for me. My wife was not there as she was with the sick kids, but this is where she really shines on the sidelines with the other Moms. And I know she would really love and appreciate the effort I put in at these games. I was sentimental/sad/happy all at the same time. More happy and sentimental than sad because I just felt there was NO WAY she would really want to give all of this up?? My wife is not rude to me and I know she wants to see if our relationship will work out. She just doesn't realize that we cannot work on this relationship while she is have EA/PA. For her, I believe she thinks she is 'comparing' to see what will make her happy. Yes, I know she is trying set up a back-up plan for me the H to be option B - but none of the other affairs are really that serious. So I don't think she is doing this on purpose - more subconsciously. Which makes it tough, because I want to continue to show her 180 and all that she is missing.

Am I in denial or could my wife be 'not as bad as others'? Because of my 'snooping' I'm well aware that she has a very hard time not "getting in trouble" when she goes out. I can recognize the compulsion - although she thinks its because of me or bad relationship instead of realizing the drug/addiction. But I do know she is struggling with it a little bit. She is not as "gung ho" as some of the other sitches I have read about. It would seem reasonable that if she were to get int some IC she might just start to realize what is going and as well as get some tools advice to actually focus and deal with what is going on in her head, as apposed to just living through it.

This weekend I did take an indirect approach to let her know that I'm aware of the last PA with the random hookup. Through text she was informed that I was told about the situation. So at least now, she will have some idea in her head as to why I might be passive aggressive. I'm hoping it adds some guilt as well too, but more importantly it at least creates something for her to think about in regards to our daily interactions. She can no longer believe that this event is her little secret. I'm hoping this knowledge and my GAL will help her feel like she is the one getting dumped now (adding that 'loss') that hopefully will begin to break the fog.

My goal/plan is to continue to do a little snooping for the next couple of days to see if I can gain any insight into how this might affect her mindset. by the end of this week I plan to stop ALL snoopoing and began to focus my detachment on me and not her response. This will take time and work. Right now the snooping is an addiction that I need to cut.. She moves out in 3 weeks, I want to have the snooping addiction cleared before she actually leaves. Kinda like a runway to her moving out. I know this is necessary, i'm just not there yet. I also believe I'm doing all the 'right' things, just with the wrong motives as I'm still to focused on her.

Feeling caught in the middle, as it still seems like there is a lot of potential for our relationship (aside for the PA/EA). She is not telling me it's over. She really never has. Am I doing this correctly based on this???


H(me:) 44
W: 45
T: 16yrs
M: 13
S: 9
S: 6
Pre BD (not really recognized by either) 8/18
PA 11/18
PA suspected 12/22/18 (Denied)
PA confirmed 12/28/18
PA #2 (Different) 2/16/19
S: 4/7/2019

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Originally Posted by P_Jam
Am I in denial or could my wife be 'not as bad as others'?

I am sorry but you are in denial. Your W is a serial cheater which is the lowest of the low as far as WWs.

Originally Posted by P_Jam
But I do know she is struggling with it a little bit. She is not as "gung ho" as some of the other sitches I have read about.

Gung ho on what? Ding you? Right now she is cake eating big time which is what WWs love. The thrill of the A and then to come home to the stability of the family.

Originally Posted by P_Jam
It would seem reasonable that if she were to get int some IC she might just start to realize what is going and as well as get some tools advice to actually focus and deal with what is going on in her head, as apposed to just living through it.
99% of them could right themselves if they were willing to do the work.

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Originally Posted by LH19
Originally Posted by P_Jam
Am I in denial or could my wife be 'not as bad as others'?

I am sorry but you are in denial. Your W is a serial cheater which is the lowest of the low as far as WWs.


Originally Posted by P_Jam
It would seem reasonable that if she were to get int some IC she might just start to realize what is going and as well as get some tools advice to actually focus and deal with what is going on in her head, as apposed to just living through it.
99% of them could right themselves if they were willing to do the work.


The worst of the worst 2x4! Ouch.. Thank you. Any further advice on what/how I should be doing then? I have an opportunity to ask/push for IC but I have stayed away from all of these conversations. Is it worth even mentioning right now?




H(me:) 44
W: 45
T: 16yrs
M: 13
S: 9
S: 6
Pre BD (not really recognized by either) 8/18
PA 11/18
PA suspected 12/22/18 (Denied)
PA confirmed 12/28/18
PA #2 (Different) 2/16/19
S: 4/7/2019

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PJ,

You can't push for IC. If she goes into IC saying she needs a divorce to be happy her IC will just validate her feelings that she should pursue a divorce.

I say this all the times to newbies, you can't make things better right now but you can certainly make them worse. If you stop applying pressure you can slow the process down.

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Here is your problem:

"none of the other affairs are really that serious"
"She's a great co-parent!"
"She just doesn't realize that we cannot work on this relationship while she is have EA/PA"
"It would seem reasonable that if she were to get int some IC she might just start to realize"

Those are all things you said. Your perspective is out of whack. You love her, that's obvious, or else you wouldn't possibly be able to say things like I quote above.

In time, with work, you will get better. I promise you, but I think you need to get into IC just to have a IRL person looking at you when you say these things.


H 34
W 29
BD 3/12/18
Divorce Busted Spring 19

It is not things that bother us, but the stories we tell ourselves about things.
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Okay new perspectives:
I’ve spent tonight reading No more Mr. Nice Guy! Now I’m debating just dropping my own bomb. Telling her how much she has hurt and betrayed me with this last incident. Tell her that I deserve much better and that I don’t really care that she feels violated because I snooped. I hope she gets the help that she needs for her and for our children. I know she will not find fullfillment in these relationships but apparently this is something she needs to find out on her own. I may be here when she is ready, or I may not. I’m going to take my time and space to work on me as well as working on moving on. I deserve better,


H(me:) 44
W: 45
T: 16yrs
M: 13
S: 9
S: 6
Pre BD (not really recognized by either) 8/18
PA 11/18
PA suspected 12/22/18 (Denied)
PA confirmed 12/28/18
PA #2 (Different) 2/16/19
S: 4/7/2019

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Originally Posted by P_Jam
Okay new perspectives:
I’ve spent tonight reading No more Mr. Nice Guy! Now I’m debating just dropping my own bomb. Telling her how much she has hurt and betrayed me with this last incident. Tell her that I deserve much better and that I don’t really care that she feels violated because I snooped. I hope she gets the help that she needs for her and for our children. I know she will not find fullfillment in these relationships but apparently this is something she needs to find out on her own. I may be here when she is ready, or I may not. I’m going to take my time and space to work on me as well as working on moving on. I deserve better,


OK let's just put the "whoa" on all of this. Right now you are at the stage where you feel like things are spinning out of control and you are desperate to control things again. When it becomes clear that you can't "control" your W into coming back, then you decide you will just cut her off completely and BD her and possibly push for S or D. Please understand this is just more control and manipulation on your part. STOP! You REALLY need to step back, take a deep breath, center yourself and adjust to this new situation.

We always say it's a marathon because it IS a marathon. There is no shortcut that gets you straight to the end. You are in emotional turmoil and it takes time to process it and heal.

Do not confront her about this. Work on "you" and leave her alone for now. Take this journey of self-improvement and once you settle into your "new normal" THEN you can decide how to proceed.


Me: 60 w/ S18, D24, D27

M: 21 years; BD: 06-14-12; S: 09-10-12; D final: 03-17-14; XW:57
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PJ,

Below is a post I read a couples years ago that really made me understand what is going on. The poster's name is Accuray. Read through his threads because I believe he understands whats going on better then anybody.

Very sorry for what you've gone through here, it's heartbreaking. You've done some things very well and handled the initial situation as well as can be expected. More recently however you're falling into a very familiar pattern that leads to a long period of pain and limbo.

Being in this situation is like dying of thirst floating on a raft in a poison lake. Everyone will tell you not to drink the water, and why you shouldn't drink the water and what will happen to you if you drink the water. You can intellectually understand what they're saying, you "get it", you can convince yourself that you're not going to drink the water, but each night when you go to sleep and each morning when you wake up, you're thirsty as hell and the water is right there, so it's extremely easy to convince yourself that a little sip can't hurt. Despite the fact that you know you should not drink the water, you will just keep doing it because you keep convincing yourself it’s okay to do so because you're just dying of thirst.

So how do we bring that to your scenario? There is really only one prescription and that is to take the focus off of W entirely and focus only on you, your life, and what you want from it. Your learnings about what you need to improve about yourself are an asset you take with you, but everything else about W, what W is doing, what W is thinking, etc. needs to be entirely put aside.

You are not safe for her to approach until she feels you've let her go. That's a simple truth, but incredibly hard to accept.

Reaching out to W, making overtures, contacting W's family, talking to OM's W, snooping on W, this is all "drinking the poison water"

Why are you doing it? Why are you so obsessed with W? You were in a relationship with a woman who wasn't meeting your needs, who would irrationally blame you for anything that went wrong, and then cheated on you and lied to you. Why is that a prize worth making the focus of your waking attention?

The reason is that you are grasping to re-establish a feeling of control over your life.

When W dropped the bomb she ripped your sense of stability away from you. From your perspective you didn't do anything to deserve it, you couldn't stop it from happening, and you couldn't put things back together afterwards.

That would make anyone feel totally out of control, spinning down the drain, and that is a horrible feeling!

You are trying to analyze and understand everything so that you can build it into a rational model so that it will never, ever happen to you again. If I can avoid doing X, then Y will never happen. In addition, you want to unlock this puzzle, to deconstruct it so you can find the solution that will allow you to rebuild it. Finding that key would provide immense comfort.

Your brain has convinced itself that getting W back, or getting W to apologize and declare a desire to have you back is the very best and fastest way to restore your feeling of being in control.

With the benefit of time and distance, you'll realize that's what it's really all about, it's about regaining the ability to feel in control of your life and your future. It really has very little to do with W or who she is as a person, she's a lever to get you what you want, but that's really just an illusion.

You're dying of thirst (feeling out of control), and pursuing W is drinking the water out of the poison lake. You think it will satisfy your thirst each time you do it, but really it's just making you sicker.

We will tell you "don't drink the water!" Intellectually you'll agree, but the water is always there and logically it seems that drinking it is the shortest path to no longer being thirsty.

Instead, you need to paddle your ass to the shore, leave the raft behind, and get a drink somewhere else.

That's not code for having your own affair or finding a new woman to have a relationship with. It has to do with finding an authentic way to rebuild your feeling of being in control, controlling your own destiny and getting your mojo back.

If you take the focus off of W *completely* she will notice. That will give her space to breathe, and to think. That's the only way these things turn around -- the ONLY way.

Don't drink the water. I know its right there. Don't drink it.
There is really only one prescription and that is to take the focus off of W entirely and focus only on you, your life, and what you want from it. Your learnings about what you need to improve about yourself are an asset you take with you, but everything else about W, what W is doing, what W is thinking, etc. needs to be entirely put aside.

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AS & LH,
Thank you so much for the 'leveling'. I get what you are saying and just as you posted, I fully get it logically. I was feeling a bit inspired last night from NMMNG and wanted to directly 'face my fears', as well as be more direct. Although this might be something I need to do, now is not necessarily the time. So, I will take other steps. As of tomorrow no more snooping. I'm done. It only hurts anyway, and clearly is just a form of trying to control.

It may not sound like it here as I post, but I do believe i'm making positive steps in regards to detachment. I know I'm not detached, but I do know what I need to do and I'm making baby steps to get there. It is difficult when she is still in the house everyday (knowing she is moving out in 3 weeks). She is still very 'normal'. Nice to me, does the laundry, picks up the house, deals with the kids and some dinner. It's weird cause it's normal - but it's not normal. I/we are cordial and polite actually have some small talk but I focused 100% on my book last night as well as the kids. I"m doing relatively well with GAL. I had a life before this (part of my W's frustration and BD). One of my newer close friends is actually buying the house across the street from me and moves in a week after my W moves out. Going to be great local support. I'm going out with this same group tonight for my B-day (without my W and I know her not being invited has tugged on her heart a little) <-- not that I should care about this.

I have a hobby that I deeply love and will be focusing on that significantly (golf) I"m a member of a club so it will be easy to stay busy there when I don't have the kids. I'm going on a week long golf trip the last week in March. I'm back in the gym and have lost 40lbs in the past year so I'm already looking/feeling better in this regard. My friend moving across the street has already been D'd in the past and knows what I'm going through so he has really helped keep me busy. In short GAL is not really my problem. Once shes' gone I will have more time to fill but already have projects planned for the house. - I just need to let go of her!!!

There are few things that still "bother" me in regards to my sitch if I handled it correctly or not. Would love your opinion(s) in regards to any other steps I might be able take (Probably not cause I can't focus on her) - but I also need to be prepared for certain conversations when they come up (cause they will come up before she moves out).

Here is a little summary:

1. I caught one of her PA's
2. She denied it was PA only EA and 'ended it'
3. I confirmed it was PA confronted her - and admitted to my own PA 2years ago (asking to rebuild the M)
4. She turned it around on my for snooping/bugging and lying for 2yrs. And never really took any responsibility/accountability for her actions
5. She said she wanted to move out because of the bugging (did not feel safe) this was essentially the real BD
6. I begged pleaded to work on this without moving out. I tried to give her space in the house but felt we were in limbo and did not like that she was not working on the relationship (this all before finding this site).
7. I then confirmed another PA with a random 1 night stand. Did not confront her about it, but then asked her to move out within 30 days. This is essentially where we are now. I think I made the right step in asking her to move out. Not only to create a 'loss' for her, but I believe that I would probably be better with this type of separation instead of IHS (but not sure how confident I am in that statement now that she is moving out). More importantly by not explaining exactly why I asked her to move out, I'm not sure I got the full benefit. Which is part of the reason I wanted to BD again last night.

So.. thoughts? We have roughly agreed on numbers for the separation. 50/50 with the kids. I give her a lump sum transition money, as well as a little child support monthly (because I make more). I'm the only one with an attorney so she doesn't fully trust me. She will need to sign away all rights to other assets for the lump sum payment. She is already aware of this but it might get more complicated when the legal documents are actually presented to her. I also think she might ask for more child support. So.. my point is - there will be other necessary conversations that come up. Does her last PA that I know about come into play at all during ANY of this? Or do you suggest this is all withheld until the future when I'm more centered? I know I need to take the focus off her but there is still the necessary goal explained by Sandy2 about needing to create 'losses' to the WW. <-- this is what I want to maximize as much as possible before she is out of the house. But obviously not to the detriment of my overall situation. So please provide any advice.


H(me:) 44
W: 45
T: 16yrs
M: 13
S: 9
S: 6
Pre BD (not really recognized by either) 8/18
PA 11/18
PA suspected 12/22/18 (Denied)
PA confirmed 12/28/18
PA #2 (Different) 2/16/19
S: 4/7/2019

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PJ,

I would table the second PA until if/when you think about reconciling. What does it matter at this point? It will just show her you are still deeply attached and give her another reason to accuse you of snooping/spying.

You made the right step by asking her to move out. It will be a lot easier for you to detach. She has to choose to want to be with you. Time and space are the only thing that turn these sitches around long-term.

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Thanks LH. I think you suggestion make sense. No need to rush, it doesn't really make a difference and I probably have some incentive to try and hurt her with the information (guilt) and no matter how she responds it will never feel as good as I think..

Question: based on the current sitch.. how should my communication/relationship be with her? Obviously, I'm hurting like hell inside (some of it deserved anger) but because she continues to be nice and make some moves 'towards' me. Do I mirror her? Of course I do not pursue - but should I continue to be 'distant' but polite? Or do I soften as she softens. Really weird trying to manage this - considering she does't know I know and/or doesn't really feel that much guilt for what is hurting me.. IT would be easier if she was rude and distant to me like other sitches...


H(me:) 44
W: 45
T: 16yrs
M: 13
S: 9
S: 6
Pre BD (not really recognized by either) 8/18
PA 11/18
PA suspected 12/22/18 (Denied)
PA confirmed 12/28/18
PA #2 (Different) 2/16/19
S: 4/7/2019

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Originally Posted by P_Jam
Obviously, I'm hurting like hell inside (some of it deserved anger) but because she continues to be nice and make some moves 'towards' me.

Can you give me some examples on how you perceive her making moves towards you.

Originally Posted by P_Jam
Do I mirror her? Of course I do not pursue - but should I continue to be 'distant' but polite? Or do I soften as she softens.
Distant but polite is always a good way to go.

Originally Posted by P_Jam
Really weird trying to manage this - considering she does't know I know and/or doesn't really feel that much guilt for what is hurting me.. IT would be easier if she was rude and distant to me like other sitches...

Why do you think it would be easier if she was rude or distant?

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Can you give me some examples on how you perceive her making moves towards you.

She's wanting to hug every now and then, and in general she is acting 'normal'. Maybe I answered my own question.. Even if not on purpose..its probably still a form of cake eating. As she still loves me but sees me as option B instead of option A. So it can be a little confusing for me when I want her back. But in reality I think I just need to make the next couple of weeks as pleasant as possible. Keep my distance (emotionally) get through the moving out transition and after time/space I figure out how/when to start to deal with whatever happens.

Originally Posted by P_Jam
Do I mirror her? Of course I do not pursue - but should I continue to be 'distant' but polite? Or do I soften as she softens.
Distant but polite is always a good way to go.

got it.

Originally Posted by P_Jam
Really weird trying to manage this - considering she does't know I know and/or doesn't really feel that much guilt for what is hurting me.. IT would be easier if she was rude and distant to me like other sitches...

Why do you think it would be easier if she was rude or distant?
[/quote]

I guess I just mean that it wouldn't be as confusing... Probably denial but I still see so much hope and potential in 'us' and the situation. I can see through the fog, at least for her I can. (or maybe it's denial). There might also be a bit of arrogance. I know I have some things to work on for myself so that I can be a better H - but as of now I firmly believe that even with the history she is giving up something VERY good. Admittedly we are here because she was not happy, and I have a lot to do with that, but not as much as she has to do with being responsible for her own happiness And I believe she's very confused right on on what she wants. I'm not convinced she's going to enjoy 'girls gone wild' at 45 with 2 young kids for very long. So it feels like her awaking is not far away. <-- I probably need to stop thinking like this, but it doesn't feel like I"m really denying. In my gut it feels like she will be back. A couple of falls in fantasy land and she'll realize.

Okay, enough rationalizing - I'm probably also in withdrawal... I have turned off ALL access to any snooping as of yesterday. It's done. Met with IC yesterday and going to be working on exercises from No More Mr. Nice Guy. Finished that book 2 days ago and I felt like I was reading a book about myself... got some work to-do but at least I know where to focus now.

Thanks for contributing to me and my thread, and thanks for listening.

PJ


H(me:) 44
W: 45
T: 16yrs
M: 13
S: 9
S: 6
Pre BD (not really recognized by either) 8/18
PA 11/18
PA suspected 12/22/18 (Denied)
PA confirmed 12/28/18
PA #2 (Different) 2/16/19
S: 4/7/2019

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Originally Posted by P_Jam
She's wanting to hug every now and then, and in general she is acting 'normal'. Maybe I answered my own question.. Even if not on purpose..its probably still a form of cake eating. As she still loves me but sees me as option B instead of option A.

Yep she's cake eating. The quicker you display through actions that you are not anybody's fuching Plan B the quicker this may turn around. Picture her walking a tight rope and you removing the net underneath.

Originally Posted by P_Jam
Admittedly we are here because she was not happy, and I have a lot to do with that, but not as much as she has to do with being responsible for her own happiness

Yep. But unfortunately she has to figure that out on her own.

Originally Posted by P_Jam
I believe she's very confused right on on what she wants.

I disagree. I don't think she is confused at all. She knows what she wants right now. Can that change down the road?Absolutely.

Originally Posted by P_Jam
I'm not convinced she's going to enjoy 'girls gone wild' at 45 with 2 young kids for very long. So it feels like her awaking is not far away.

From what I read it typically takes 18 to 24 months minimum for that to happen.

Originally Posted by P_Jam
In my gut it feels like she will be back. A couple of falls in fantasy land and she'll realize.

I said the same thing. I am 8 months in and though my ex is starting to show cracks in the foundation she has not tried to reconcile.

Originally Posted by P_Jam
I have turned off ALL access to any snooping as of yesterday. It's done. Met with IC yesterday and going to be working on exercises from No More Mr. Nice Guy. Finished that book 2 days ago and I felt like I was reading a book about myself... got some work to-do but at least I know where to focus now.

This is all good stuff! You are heading in the right direction.

Originally Posted by P_Jam
Thanks for contributing to me and my thread, and thanks for listening.

You're welcome! I am glad to help.

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LH,
You've been here a while.. how do I find your original thread to read about your sitch?


H(me:) 44
W: 45
T: 16yrs
M: 13
S: 9
S: 6
Pre BD (not really recognized by either) 8/18
PA 11/18
PA suspected 12/22/18 (Denied)
PA confirmed 12/28/18
PA #2 (Different) 2/16/19
S: 4/7/2019

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PJ,

I didn't post much on my situation. Been here for 4 plus years. Read 100s if stories and 95% of them follow the same script. I would be happy to answer any questions regarding my sitch.

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Originally Posted by P_Jam
I'm not convinced she's going to enjoy 'girls gone wild' at 45 with 2 young kids for very long. So it feels like her awaking is not far away.


Well my XW is going to be 45 next month and she is still enjoying girls gone wild, with 2 young kids, while getting child support to supplement her income.

Don't be so sure...…………...


Married 14, Together 17
M: 44, W: 43, D: 8, D: 6
M: 46, W: 45. D: 10. D: 8 (CUR)
Bomb Dropped: 5/28/2017
Separation Date: 6/17/2017
Divorce Filed: 2/7/2018
Divorce Final: 4/12/2018
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Just wondering if your sitch is WAS or WW? This seems to create some key differences (some good some bad). I guess I'm also looking for some experiences with WW that didn't take 18-24 months. 1) I don't think I can wait that long. I already feel a desire to start other relationships. I know some of this is revenge as well as a 'crutch' for detachment. I plan to take sexual sabbatical for sure - but doesn't feel right to sit and 'wait' while she's doing girls gone wild. 2) She's a 'mother' at heart and with such young kids I think/hope the draw of the family structure breaks the fog sooner. 3) my IC also doesn't 'think' it would take that long (although he's only met her once). I know it will never be quick enough for me but that fact that she is moving out (not me), going from house/yard to apartment with very active boys, as well as a financial drain. She's going to be getting a taste of reality on all fronts VERY quickly. My gut tells me it will mostly depend on the EA's and if they ever turn into anything that might string this along. I don't really see her starting something 'new' right now that develops. I think she is going to play around physically and see where the current EA's go (cause those are her biggest attachments). She's got a couple of EA's/PA's that fill an emotional void, but I honestly don't think they will fill the other void once the family structure is gone. I don't think either of these EA's are really 'available' for her. The one that causes me the most fear is actually married (bad relationship, sleeping on couch) but he seems committed to reconciling his for the family. Could be wrong, but don't see him leaving his sitch just cause she's now available This, and if she start IC to start to realize this is fantasy... Remember, I think I caught this early and the fact that I caught it and therefore help facilitate BD she may not be as 'locked' in as others.

I'm also starting to look forward to the time and space myself... Maybe I will realize sooner than later that I'm just on interested in waiting, or even wanting her back at all.

Which brings me to my next question.. Why is it so Black/White that we (LBS) should not have/start other relationships especially with a WW? Logically I can see how it COULD just add complication - but in reality we do not have a M/relationship right now. Logically, I could also argue that it may facilitate the 'loss' she needs as well as the feeling of detachment/moving on from her.


H(me:) 44
W: 45
T: 16yrs
M: 13
S: 9
S: 6
Pre BD (not really recognized by either) 8/18
PA 11/18
PA suspected 12/22/18 (Denied)
PA confirmed 12/28/18
PA #2 (Different) 2/16/19
S: 4/7/2019

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Originally Posted by P_Jam
Just wondering if your sitch is WAS or WW?

I caught her first EA early with the neighbor. I think he was looking for someone to talk to and when he found out I knew he got spooked and ended contact with my ex. I believe there was another one right before she filed but can't be sure. She is "chasing the butterflies in her stomach effect" (her words) but I don't thinking it's working out to well for her right now.
Originally Posted by P_Jam
I already feel a desire to start other relationships. I know some of this is revenge as well as a 'crutch' for detachment. I plan to take sexual sabbatical for sure - but doesn't feel right to sit and 'wait' while she's doing girls gone wild.

That's an issue you should work on with IC.
Originally Posted by P_Jam
2) She's a 'mother' at heart and with such young kids I think/hope the draw of the family structure breaks the fog sooner.

Maybe but these scripts typically stay on the same timelines.
Originally Posted by P_Jam
3) my IC also doesn't 'think' it would take that long (although he's only met her once). I know it will never be quick enough for me but that fact that she is moving out (not me), going from house/yard to apartment with very active boys, as well as a financial drain. She's going to be getting a taste of reality on all fronts VERY quickly. My gut tells me it will mostly depend on the EA's and if they ever turn into anything that might string this along. I don't really see her starting something 'new' right now that develops. I think she is going to play around physically and see where the current EA's go (cause those are her biggest attachments). She's got a couple of EA's/PA's that fill an emotional void, but I honestly don't think they will fill the other void once the family structure is gone.

Your IC is most likely telling you what you want to hear to keep you coming back for more. Again, I agree just not with your timeline.
Originally Posted by P_Jam
I don't think either of these EA's are really 'available' for her. The one that causes me the most fear is actually married (bad relationship, sleeping on couch) but he seems committed to reconciling his for the family. Could be wrong, but don't see him leaving his sitch just cause she's now available This, and if she start IC to start to realize this is fantasy... Remember, I think I caught this early and the fact that I caught it and therefore help facilitate BD she may not be as 'locked' in as others.

Just like mine I caught it early on. The problem is it didn't take it's natural course and my ex is searching for that high again.
Originally Posted by P_Jam
I'm also starting to look forward to the time and space myself... Maybe I will realize sooner than later that I'm just on interested in waiting, or even wanting her back at all.

That is very likely.
Originally Posted by P_Jam
Which brings me to my next question.. Why is it so Black/White that we (LBS) should not have/start other relationships especially with a WW? Logically I can see how it COULD just add complication - but in reality we do not have a M/relationship right now.

Because that is being selfish and you are using and hurting another human being.
Originally Posted by P_Jam
Logically, I could also argue that it may facilitate the 'loss' she needs as well as the feeling of detachment/moving on from her.

You are trying to use logic and reason to figure out an emotional human being. They don't understand logic and reason.
[/quote]

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LH,
Would like to clarify the "other relationships" and using another human being... I"m not suggesting I start one only to make W jealous.

Ex: I'm have female friend that I'm connecting with now who is also going through divorce. We are very open that we really don't want/need to have a relationship. But clearly we are making a connection based on what we have in common. I can see something happening. I/we would need to be open with each other, but my point is.. no matter who/how/when there is a next relationship it is most likely a rebound relationship anyway. So I"m wondering why it is such a cardinal rule to completely avoid in this situation? And not continue living my life on that front as well?


H(me:) 44
W: 45
T: 16yrs
M: 13
S: 9
S: 6
Pre BD (not really recognized by either) 8/18
PA 11/18
PA suspected 12/22/18 (Denied)
PA confirmed 12/28/18
PA #2 (Different) 2/16/19
S: 4/7/2019

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It seems detaching is the most difficult for newcomers to grasp.....much less actually doing it. I have a favorite copy of a much shorter definition/example of detaching. I'm going to paste it below.

**************************************************************************************

Definition of Healthy Detachment...(Posted by DBer Peanut originally)

I. Detachment

Detachment is critical to the process of altering and repairing a relationship.

Attached, we take personally ALL that is said, not said, done and not done.

When our ego gets wounded, we are more inclined to do/say things that undermine our goals.

When we are Detached from the actions of another, we can meet anger or indifference with love.

Met with love (known as to lovingly detach*), we are in a position to diffuse the situation, and transform it in a way that will be in alignment with our goals.

On the flip-side, detachment allows us to play it cool when we do get a positive reaction from our spouse. It is a way to break the distance/pursuer cycle.

Detachment is not withdrawal. It is not indifference. It is not the mind saying, I am not getting what I want so I must pull back.

It is the natural acceptance that we alone are responsible for how we act. We cannot control another person, but we can control how we respond to them.

We are responsible for our own actions (no one else is).

We are responsible for our own happiness. (No one else is)


PART II Detachment (found around here)

Detachment is the:

* Ability to allow S the freedom to be him/herself.

* Holding back from the need to rescue, save or fix S from being sick, dysfunctional or irrational.

* Giving S "the space" to be him/herself.

* Disengaging from an over-enmeshed or dependent relationship with S.

* Accepting that I cannot change or control S and it was never my duty/job to do so.

* Establishing of emotional boundaries between me and S, so that both of us might be able to develop our own sense of autonomy and independence.

* Process by which I am free to feel my own feelings when I see S falter and fail and not to feel responsible for his/her failure, faltering or learning.

* Ability to maintain an emotional bond of love, concern and caring, without the negative results of rescuing, enabling, fixing, demanding or controlling.

* Placing of all things in life into a healthy, rational perspective. (=Balance is a piece of detachment).

* Ability to exercise emotional self-protection and prevention so as not to hang on beyond a reasonable and rational point.

* Ability to let people I love and care for accept personal responsibility for their own actions and not bail them out when their actions lead to failure or trouble for them.

* Ability to allow S to be who he/she really is rather than who I want him/her to be.

IF & WHEN THESE ^^^ FACTORS ARE ADDRESSED, -

We could have a great friendship, or a great marriage. And those are treasures.


It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
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PJ,

Yeah have at it. But based on your history of already cheating on her my guess is she will just use that as justification on why she is leaving you.

If you are going to recon there is clearly going to be trust issues between you and this will just add fuel to the fire.

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Originally Posted by P_Jam

Ex: I'm have female friend that I'm connecting with now who is also going through divorce. We are very open that we really don't want/need to have a relationship. But clearly we are making a connection based on what we have in common. I can see something happening. I/we would need to be open with each other, but my point is.. no matter who/how/when there is a next relationship it is most likely a rebound relationship anyway. So I"m wondering why it is such a cardinal rule to completely avoid in this situation? And not continue living my life on that front as well?


Well, because you are still very wrecked emotionally. You are not in a healthy place to start a new R. In the end we just offer advice here, it's up to you whether to take it or not. So it's your choice. But I will say that I jumped into a new R a year after BD thinking I was ready, but man I was not even close. It was emotionally upsetting and draining. DB'ing is as much about your own personal recovery and rebuilding as it is about saving your M. Work on yourself first, then work on a new R, whether that's with your W or someone else.


Me: 60 w/ S18, D24, D27

M: 21 years; BD: 06-14-12; S: 09-10-12; D final: 03-17-14; XW:57
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Quote
Does her last PA that I know about come into play at all during ANY of this? Or do you suggest this is all withheld until the future when I'm more centered? I know I need to take the focus off her but there is still the necessary goal explained by Sandy2 about needing to create 'losses' to the WW. <-- this is what I want to maximize as much as possible before she is out of the house. But obviously not to the detriment of my overall situation.


I want to address the H needing to "create" losses for his WW, b/c I am beginning to see a few H's who become distracted by it. First of all, nobody knows what that loss might be that shakes her out of the fantasy and makes her see reality. Waywardness comes when the W no longer respects her H as a man. The actions the H takes should be indicative of his self respect as a man. For instance, if he knows his W is cheating, he requires her to leave the marital bedroom, b/c she has disrespected their M.....and him. Understand, the purpose is not to punish her, but rather to stand up for himself and protect his dignity. He can cut off or withdraw some the benefits she gets by being legally M to him......and/or living under the same roof with him....... as long as the overall message is "I won't enable you to disrespect me". In other words, the only losses he can oversee are those connected to him. Outside of that arena, it's not his job to try and create losses for her. Sometimes, life has a way of opening our eyes when nothing else could.

I can see how you become inspired by reading new information, and you are eager to apply what you've read. I want to encourage you to wait on acting on something, until you run it past the board. A lot of LBH'S have trouble staying balanced in their thinking and their actions.

Quote
Question: based on the current sitch.. how should my communication/relationship be with her?


She plans to move out in three weeks, correct? I suggest you interact with her along the same behavior as if she were a checkout clerk in the store where you shop. When you go through the checkout lane, you may exchange some pleasant small talk during the transaction, but you don't flirt or discuss private issues with her. You don't try to sneak in a little touchy stuff, show affection, hang around her while she works, etc. You complete the transaction in a civilized, maybe even friendly manner, and you go on your way. Of course with your WW, you will need to talk about certain logistics, but you get the picture here, right? Why make the atmosphere unbearable? As long as the decision has already been made for her to move out.......I suggest you try to be as civil as possible. If there should be an incident where you feel the tears coming on for you, then go to the bathroom and bury your face in a stack of towels. Don't show emotion in front of her. If she's the one who gets teary eyed, don't be cruel but don't crumble at the sight of female tears, either. Remain calm, and don't try to fix or rescue her. You can something like, "This has been difficult for everyone".

Quote
but should I continue to be 'distant' but polite? Or do I soften as she softens.


By "distant" I assume you mean detached. You stay emotionally detached from her drama. WW's are manipulative. She'll check your emotional temperature to see how attached or detached you stand. Therefore, you cannot trust her softness. You can't trust her in any sense. Unless she tells you she's willing to cooperate and do whatever is necessary to save the MR.........you pay no attention to her softness. I'm telling you, she will use her feminine ways to manipulate, so always be on guard. As much as it hurts to think of you both being separate entities, that's pretty much the attitude you need to take right now. ((hugs))

Quote
Really weird trying to manage this - considering she does't know I know and/or doesn't really feel that much guilt for what is hurting me..


The best way to manage this......is to stop managing her.

Quote
IT would be easier if she was rude and distant to me like other sitches...


Just remember that what you see is not authentic.


It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
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Sandy!
so great to have you contribute to my sitch I've read A LOT of your posts and really happy to have your input.

I do realize that my effort to create a loss is not only a controlling move but also may not be the loss that begins to break the fog. From my perspective though.. doesn't seem like it can hurt. I've got 3 weeks before she is out of the house and from then on it will only be time, space and her own decisions that will hopefully begin to break the fog.

I'm not sure I even have anymore ideas on how to create anymore losses. I've also stopped snooping. I think she is getting the feeling that I am detached as I think i'm 'acting as if' pretty well. I'm also doing good at GAL staying very busy with Golf etc (although I do fear that me being gone a lot is also allowing her to remember why she has resentment in the first place). That being said even my IC says; she my not know it directly but until you completely detach/drop the rope there is probably an underlying feeling that you have not detached <-- and she can feel this.

It will be easier when she is out (although acting as if will be tougher) as I won't have the immediate feedback on how she is feeling and this is when I will just need to focus on me. Right now I can tell she is trying to mirror me by detaching more and not being as obvious about being nice/cake eating. Which makes me feel like what I'm doing is working a little.

I'm doing something this weekend I probably shouldn't (but it's too late) we are doing one more family event. I know I should not have invited her to this - but I did. Hopefully, it just works as one more thing/lifestyle that she recognizes she will be giving up.

I'm still hopeful that my sitch will turn around quicker than others - but only time will tell. I'll keep journaling and asking questions of you and the board.

One question for you Sandy (not sure if you read through my entire sitch). Based on where I am now (WW). I plan to go dark/grey as soon as she is out basically LRT. I haven't talked about R or pursued in over 3 weeks. So when she goes I plan to just keep any communication about the kids. Do you agree with this strategy? Not sure I really have any other options.


H(me:) 44
W: 45
T: 16yrs
M: 13
S: 9
S: 6
Pre BD (not really recognized by either) 8/18
PA 11/18
PA suspected 12/22/18 (Denied)
PA confirmed 12/28/18
PA #2 (Different) 2/16/19
S: 4/7/2019

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Sandy, (or anyone)
I think you're in an opposite time zone so thought I would throw this question out to you as well as you will probably read the above and below while I'm asleep.

I'm thinking about having the equivalent of an 'exit interview' with her before she moves. She has an idea that I know about her last PA (although I did not confront her directly so it's never been an official conversation). Furthermore, she might be under the impression that I still believe that she has ended the other EA's/PA's (I know she has not - but she may not have gotten physical again - yet). As you know she is trying to cake eat as much as she can while she is still in the house. She also seems to be under the impression that we will still be doing 'family' stuff on some weekends (ya know to keep the family unit together). Essentially, I think she is covering for cake eating in the future by acting like she is 'working on our relationship' when we are together as a family - when really it's just cake eating.

So, I thought it would be important to have a talk about what my boundaries are and why as it pertains to our relationship after the moves. Explain to her that; I believe she is still actively having EA's/PA's (details don't matter) and that I will not be ANYONE'S plan b. Therefore I don't see a lot of 'family' time for us until you are ready to actively work on your issues and our relationship. We will be 'friends' and we will work together as co-parents to make the transition for our children as smooth as possible - but our MR DOES NOT EXIST and if/when you are ready we can discuss the possibility of building something in the future - but not until you are done with OM!

Thoughts?


H(me:) 44
W: 45
T: 16yrs
M: 13
S: 9
S: 6
Pre BD (not really recognized by either) 8/18
PA 11/18
PA suspected 12/22/18 (Denied)
PA confirmed 12/28/18
PA #2 (Different) 2/16/19
S: 4/7/2019

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Originally Posted by P_Jam
I'm thinking about having the equivalent of an 'exit interview' with her before she moves.

That would be a very bad idea. You have to just drop the rope and let her go.
Originally Posted by P_Jam
She has an idea that I know about her last PA (although I did not confront her directly so it's never been an official conversation). Furthermore, she might be under the impression that I still believe that she has ended the other EA's/PA's (I know she has not - but she may not have gotten physical again - yet).

PJ it doesn't matter she is moving out and you CAN'T CONTROL what she does.
Originally Posted by P_Jam
As you know she is trying to cake eat as much as she can while she is still in the house.

Can you give some examples of how she is trying to cake eat?
Originally Posted by P_Jam
She also seems to be under the impression that we will still be doing 'family' stuff on some weekends (ya know to keep the family unit together).

What makes you think that? Has she said can we still do things as a family?
Originally Posted by P_Jam
Essentially, I think she is covering for cake eating in the future by acting like she is 'working on our relationship' when we are together as a family - when really it's just cake eating.

What makes you think she is working on the relationship? Has she said I am moving out to work on the relationship?
Originally Posted by P_Jam
So, I thought it would be important to have a talk about what my boundaries are and why as it pertains to our relationship after the moves.

What are your boundaries and what are the consequences if broken?
Originally Posted by P_Jam
Explain to her that; I believe she is still actively having EA's/PA's (details don't matter) and that I will not be ANYONE'S plan b.

What if she says yes I am actively having EA/PAs? What will you do?
Originally Posted by P_Jam
Therefore I don't see a lot of 'family' time for us until you are ready to actively work on your issues and our relationship.

Actions not words.
Originally Posted by P_Jam
We will be 'friends' and we will work together as co-parents to make the transition for our children as smooth as possible - but our MR DOES NOT EXIST and if/when you are ready we can discuss the possibility of building something in the future - but not until you are done with OM!

PJ you see this is another control thing with you. You are trying to tell her the marriage does not exist when she is already basically told you it's over. Don't even bring up the possibility of reconciling in the future. It has to be her choice to want to reconcile.

I know you feel like your life is out of control right now but I am afraid you are going to do more damage with your words. There is a saying around here that you need to open the cage door and set her free.

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^^^What LH said^^^ Just let her go. What you are suggesting is really just another R talk and I think you know the DBing stance on those.


Me: 60 w/ S18, D24, D27

M: 21 years; BD: 06-14-12; S: 09-10-12; D final: 03-17-14; XW:57
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LH & AS,
First admittedly this is still a little bit of control I get that. I'm not yet detached I don't deny that but as I have tried to convey in previous post my W has always maintained that this relationship has hope. both in actions and words however because of my snooping and information from this board I have figured it to be cake eating. My W has never actually said this relationship is over. She said she was unhappy and has been for a while (as her reason/excuse for the PA that I caught and confronted her about). She initially ended this PA (i know for a fact cause I heard it myself). She also ended other EA (although I'm not sure those were the same type of conversations) - she might have just said my H is all over me I need to slow/stop these conversations for a while as apposed to taking responsibility and actually ending them. But I know she did end the PA. This was all back before I confronted her with the PA (remember I confronted her after everything was 'ended' but then I exposed my infidelity in the past, as well as admitted to the bugging. Once we actually made the decision for to move out she slowly started getting in contact with the PA and EA - but I'm confident she has not met up with any of them physically again - yet.


If it wasn't for me she would probably still be living in the house. She said she was looking for a place to live (but taking her sweet time to find a place). Then I snooped again and caught the random on night stand. I did not confront her about this PA at all, I just told her I agree that it's not really working with us in the same house. You aren't really 'working' on anything and I think you should move out - in 30 days. So I have never once had a conversation with her about this latest event. Through indirect ways she thinks that I might know (someone told me) but it's not been confirmed in her mind and because I have not confronted her - she may not believe I actually know for sure. And she's smart enough not to press the issue and open Pandora box just in case I don't really know what happened. I also know that this one night stand really threw her for a loop. When I was snooping she had conversations with a friend saying "What was I thinking, I didn't even know this guy? I can't believe I did that. I have I really done enough in this relationship? How did we get here and do I really need to move out to figure this stuff out?". <-- clearly compulsion.

Yes, she has told me and the kids that we are still going to be doing things as a family while we decide what works best for the entire family as we move forward. Just yesterday as we were splitting up holidays for the parenting plan (with my lawyer - she does not have one). She made comments about certain holidays Christmas, 4th of July, etc - that she is assuming she will be here with me/us at the family house for some of these. Basically assuming that after a little time and space we will be more friendly, possibly 'dating' again and doing family stuff. <-- this has always been her approach to the separation.

I know she is in contact with both the EA's and the PA - but the EA's are associated with work and right now it would not be possible for her to totally cut them off. I don't know if the conversations are more professional now or not. I'm just assuming - not. I know with the one PA she really doesn't see anything long-term and from what I know they have hung out multiple times in the last few months but have only been physical once. <-- not that this is an excuse but this is why I believe she is still really confused. She likes the attention, it is filling a void. She might even get physical again to let things play out. But for her this entire separation has been about 'space' to figure things out between us (and definitely still working on our relationship). I"m the one that has drawn the hard line. Because I know we can't really work on the R if she is still out playing the field. However, because of my NGS and being afraid that she will turn the snooping/bugging around on me again I have been chicken to confront her again with everything that I know.

This is why I thought of the exit interview. I would still probably not let her know how much detail I have about all the EA's/PA's but I would make it clear that I'm aware it is many more than the 1 or 2 I have confronted her on.

There is a good chance she is thinking that I only know about 1 EA and 1 PA - both supposedly ended already. And the separation/moving out is more about the bugging (her not feeling comfortable in the house) and taking a little time to figure out why she did those things. Which makes sense, until you factor in the fact that I actually know more than this. I also understand that her actions are compulsive (I don't think she understand this yet). I have my 'reasons' for my infidelity and it took me a while to realize I was compulsive and that the issues were inside me. Not her or our relationship. She is definitely wayward and I don't deny she able to do this due to lack of respect for me. That being said; i do believe she has fully convinced herself that it's because she believe she's missing "Mr. Right" and the passion/honeymoon feeling is the way relationship should be all the time. She knows/believes i have something to do with putting her in this situation but she has never tried to outwardly blame me or our relationship for her actions. Only that she has "some stuff to figure out". Because of this board I believe this all to be cake eating - but in my gut I don't believe it to be outward manipulation - meaning that I don't think she consciously knows she is keeping me as a safety net (plan b). I think she wants it to work out, but we all know that it will never work out until she figures her stuff out on her own (but she doesn't know/believe this is ultimately her responsibility and doesn't realize this is all fantasy.) In my opinion it is cake eating but more on the subconscious level then continuous.


H(me:) 44
W: 45
T: 16yrs
M: 13
S: 9
S: 6
Pre BD (not really recognized by either) 8/18
PA 11/18
PA suspected 12/22/18 (Denied)
PA confirmed 12/28/18
PA #2 (Different) 2/16/19
S: 4/7/2019

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PJ,

Look man you can spin it all you want but I have yet to see a single situation where the WW leaves the house to work on the marriage. Steve has a saying that "WWs don't move out for space they move out to sleep with other people". She will say anything to keep you off her back so she can move out without resistance.

I agree about the entire fantasy life she is trying to live but she is no different then any other WW. She is moving out to pursue her fantasy and whether you want to be or not, you are her Plan B right now.

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Originally Posted by P_Jam
...but as I have tried to convey in previous post my W has always maintained that this relationship has hope. both in actions and words however because of my snooping and information from this board I have figured it to be cake eating.


I would call it manipulation rather than cake-eating. It's very common for WAS's to "dangle the carrot" as a way of keeping you on the hook and coercing you into giving them whatever it is they want (better settlement in the D, more of an "allowance", letting them stay in the house while you move out, etc.) It's just hollow talk though. Cake-eating is more like going off and having a fling with OM and then coming home and playing house like nothing is wrong.

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My W has never actually said this relationship is over.


Neither did my XW. Don't get hung up on semantics. It's pretty clear she's done, for now.

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Yes, she has told me and the kids that we are still going to be doing things as a family while we decide what works best for the entire family as we move forward.


While having an affair or two or three. Now THAT is cake-eating.

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She made comments about certain holidays Christmas, 4th of July, etc - that she is assuming she will be here with me/us at the family house for some of these. Basically assuming that after a little time and space we will be more friendly, possibly 'dating' again and doing family stuff. <-- this has always been her approach to the separation.


If your intent is to let her know this isn't going to happen then that's fine. Just don't turn it into a R talk, right? Just tell her "we won't be spending family time together, we need to work out visitation over the holidays with that in mind." Keep it strictly business.

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I know she is in contact with both the EA's and the PA - but the EA's are associated with work and right now it would not be possible for her to totally cut them off. I don't know if the conversations are more professional now or not. I'm just assuming - not.


It doesn't really matter, not unless she expresses real, genuine interest in reconciling. Until then just let it go. You already know she's a cheater, the how, when, who and why doesn't really matter much.


Me: 60 w/ S18, D24, D27

M: 21 years; BD: 06-14-12; S: 09-10-12; D final: 03-17-14; XW:57
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One question for you Sandy (not sure if you read through my entire sitch). Based on where I am now (WW). I plan to go dark/grey as soon as she is out basically LRT. I haven't talked about R or pursued in over 3 weeks. So when she goes I plan to just keep any communication about the kids. Do you agree with this strategy? Not sure I really have any other options.


I would think you are already applying the LRT, since you asked her to leave. I mean, physical separation can be one of the last resort steps the LBS takes when his/her spouse refuses to end their wayward lifestyle, rather than working on the MR.

I don't believe in this "going grey". It's a pet peeve of mine, and my take on going dark may be different than some other posters. I believe it was in Divorce Remedy, (if not then another book I read) that said going dark was the last phase of the LRT. It's where the LBS falls off the face of the planet and the wayward spouse never has contact from him. Complete blackout. IMHO, that would be an impossible task when co-parenting children. I do think couples who have no children can go dark.

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I'm thinking about having the equivalent of an 'exit interview' with her before she moves. She has an idea that I know about her last PA (although I did not confront her directly so it's never been an official conversation). Furthermore, she might be under the impression that I still believe that she has ended the other EA's/PA's (I know she has not - but she may not have gotten physical again - yet).


An exit interview? laugh I think that's a new one for the board. So, bottom line, you want your WW to know that she has not pulled any wool over your eyes...….plus, it's bugging you that she's not been confronted, "officially"? What is it you wish to accomplish? You've already asked her to move out, so if you didn't confront her about the latest guy before you asked her to leave, I don't see the point of confronting.

Here's where I stand on the subject of confrontation. It begs for a consequence. Just like when a parent confronts their teenager about some wayward behavior they've shown, that parent better be ready to ground them or something else. I mean, the first time it happens, you may be able to confront, talk through it and point out all the issues and then say, "Just don't let it happen again". However, if it does happen again...….then what? Another talk? Do you see what I'm saying?

Quote
As you know she is trying to cake eat as much as she can while she is still in the house. She also seems to be under the impression that we will still be doing 'family' stuff on some weekends (ya know to keep the family unit together). Essentially, I think she is covering for cake eating in the future by acting like she is 'working on our relationship' when we are together as a family - when really it's just cake eating.

So, I thought it would be important to have a talk about what my boundaries are and why as it pertains to our relationship after the moves. Explain to her that; I believe she is still actively having EA's/PA's (details don't matter) and that I will not be ANYONE'S plan b. Therefore I don't see a lot of 'family' time for us until you are ready to actively work on your issues and our relationship. We will be 'friends' and we will work together as co-parents to make the transition for our children as smooth as possible - but our MR DOES NOT EXIST and if/when you are ready we can discuss the possibility of building something in the future - but not until you are done with OM!


It doesn't work. You and your WW have already made the decision to separate. She will see this as your way to control and/or punish her.

First, there's not a lot you can do about her cake eating as long as she's under the same roof with you. I think trying to just live peacefully for three more weeks would be the way to go, in this case. Why? B/c you've waited too late to start cracking the whip about how much cake she gets at this point. I mean, you can stop catering to her, things of that nature, but it doesn't require a R talk. In fact, it's more effective to just let her figure out why things have changed for her.

Now about discussing your boundaries...…...no, that is not effective, either. Your boundaries are set up to protect your feelings, and they don't have to be explained or negotiated in order to enforce them. Is this separation not the consequences of her dishonoring your boundaries, and the boundaries of the MR? Does she not know why you asked her to move out? See, I am wondering how this all went down and if you were clear about everything. Does she see herself leaving you b/c you lied to her? If that's the case, and since both of you are guilty of inappropriate behavior (at the least) and having an A (at the most)……….I can't see where this discussion would get you anywhere close to a positive note.

I'm sure it's frustrating to become better educated in DBing after the fact, so to speak. However, you can't go back now and try to say/do the things that should have been done before you told her to move out. Make sense?

I suggest you not do ANYTHING without running it by the board and giving it a couple of days. Years ago, 72 hours was the amount of waiting time suggested. These days, it's hard to get people to just hold up for a couple of days before they say or act on their feelings or act on something new they've read in a book. I also want to point out that the advice you may read on another person's thread, may not apply in your situation. People get carried away and think there is one set of rules that apply for every sitch under the sun.

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Therefore I don't see a lot of 'family' time for us until you are ready to actively work on your issues and our relationship.


No, no, you don't explain this to her. (She can't have family time if you don't partake.) This is something the WW can figure out for herself. If you take it upon yourself to tell her, then she'll mark it down to you being uncooperative. punitive, controlling, etc. But if she has to experience less family time, it will eventually occur to her that this is the consequences when families break up. She may not take complete responsibility for it ..….but that's not your decision to make. She may put the breakup all on your shoulders. There will have to be a lot of family therapy before the relationship heals, b/c of the cheating on both sides.

I want you to think of something about this cheating on both sides. I can't remember when you said you stopped everything, but I remember you confessed the A to your WW when you confronted her about her A. Although she was behaving like GGW and hooking up with guys, the news of your A's and the two years of lying was fresh to her. You had been snooping on her, and had known for awhile about her A, but she was hit all at once about you. If I am incorrect, tell me. I don't know if she had suspicioned you of cheating, but I can promise you she's going to throw it in your face if you approach her as "the more faithful spouse than her" with some of these things you want to say.

With that said, how are you holding up through the withdrawals since you've stopped sexting?

I encourage you to keep coming to the board, and continue getting professional help. Focus on healing yourself first. ((hugs))


It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
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LH - Thanks! I get it! I'm actually not trying to 'spin' what will actually happen at the 'love shack' once she moves out. I get it. And it is one of the hardest things for me to think about. But I accept this as not only fact, but necessary as she we'll definitely have to play some of this out before the fog even begins to lift. Logically I know this, emotionally it kills me.

As always where we might differ is the timeline <-- and I'm probably in denial but I will hold out hope that she is 'smarter' then some of the rest and will really want to rebuild the family structure sooner than later. Having faith for who she USED to be and that she will find that sooner than later is not denial (unless I refuse to actually detach which is the more important thing).

I really appreciate your active advice on my thread and don't want you to feel like I'm always arguing/debating - as the 2x4's of reality are necessary for me. But my long post above was to try and provide all the background as it specifically related to my exit interview idea. Because I've now become much more educated on my NGS and the fact that I haven't been very direct with her (although I have taken some correct actions). There is a strong part of me now that wants to make sure I'm setting the correct boundaries (verbally) with her before she leaves. Letting her know why her picture of how we move forward once she is living in the love shack is viewed significantly different between us. I know it is next to impossible but I am trying to be objective. I feel this way for a few reasons. One, the NGS and wanting to be more direct. My IC thinks that it's best that I get EVERYTHING on the table as it MIGHT help to start and break the fog (because if she isn't aware how much I know, and why I feel there is no 'working' on the R. She won't be able to dilute or rationalize as much when she knows I'm aware of how big/bad the problem is. Third, because of my own history with sexual compulsivity I'm interested in pointing out the compulsive behavior one last time. Just to try and plant the seed that this is a compulsive issue (Limmerence etc.) and not necessarily the wrong person/relationship. As she has seemed open to IC in the past and actually committed to me that she will get it (but may not be with the same IC as me). I know this may not come to fruition but no need to give up hope. She has a couple of 'bad apples' that she is spending more time with, but she also has a very large group of happily married friends that she is conversing with and spending time with that I think are being much more objective with her. So although I'm sure we also disagree on how far down the rabbit hole she may be... Would you still say/suggest that having an exit interview is bad and nothing should be spoken - only actions? or a non-issue just don't have any expectations? or something else? So don't be soft - but specifically to the Exit interview - Yay? nay? Why?

I have to admit that; Another Stander's comments "this is only another R talk" makes a little sense. But is there really NO benefit in having one to clarify my position? It is a R talk, but it is not pursuing. I don't see how it would set me back in anyway. But please continue to educate me.


Last edited by P_Jam; 03/22/19 04:53 PM.

H(me:) 44
W: 45
T: 16yrs
M: 13
S: 9
S: 6
Pre BD (not really recognized by either) 8/18
PA 11/18
PA suspected 12/22/18 (Denied)
PA confirmed 12/28/18
PA #2 (Different) 2/16/19
S: 4/7/2019

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Originally Posted by sandi2
Quote


I don't believe in this "going grey". It's a pet peeve of mine, and my take on going dark may be different than some other posters. I believe it was in Divorce Remedy, (if not then another book I read) that said going dark was the last phase of the LRT. It's where the LBS falls off the face of the planet and the wayward spouse never has contact from him. Complete blackout. IMHO, that would be an impossible task when co-parenting children. I do think couples who have no children can go dark.

We have children that is why I called it going 'grey'. I can't fall off the face of the earth. But I do plan to continue DB and not checking in on ANYTHING with her that is not related to the kids. As well as ignoring any texts from her that are not about the kids.

Quote
I'm thinking about having the equivalent of an 'exit interview' with her before she moves. She has an idea that I know about her last PA (although I did not confront her directly so it's never been an official conversation). Furthermore, she might be under the impression that I still believe that she has ended the other EA's/PA's (I know she has not - but she may not have gotten physical again - yet).


An exit interview? laugh I think that's a new one for the board. So, bottom line, you want your WW to know that she has not pulled any wool over your eyes...….plus, it's bugging you that she's not been confronted, "officially"? What is it you wish to accomplish? You've already asked her to move out, so if you didn't confront her about the latest guy before you asked her to leave, I don't see the point of confronting.

My thought here is specific to two things. Practicing being more direct and confrontational (NGS). Also the escalation to the random one night stand with a stranger is new for her, and I know it affected her emotionally. She did/does feel remorse for this particular behavior (much more than the others). So I wanted to drive the the point home that I'm aware of this and highlight the compulsive nature of the scenario and that it is getting worse.

Here's where I stand on the subject of confrontation. It begs for a consequence. Just like when a parent confronts their teenager about some wayward behavior they've shown, that parent better be ready to ground them or something else. I mean, the first time it happens, you may be able to confront, talk through it and point out all the issues and then say, "Just don't let it happen again". However, if it does happen again...….then what? Another talk? Do you see what I'm saying?

Kind of.. but it is more of a parting shot <-- maybe a bad term but refer to above about compulsive behavior- considering my plan of action does not really change no matter what she says. One underlying current her is the compulsive issue. I had a compulsive sexual issue myself and months ago when I first confronted her about PA I asked if she felt she couldn't control her urges. She strongly rebuffed this idea. But I now know that there might be a crack in this thinking for her.

[quote]As you know she is trying to cake eat as much as she can while she is still in the house. She also seems to be under the impression that we will still be doing 'family' stuff on some weekends (ya know to keep the family unit together). Essentially, I think she is covering for cake eating in the future by acting like she is 'working on our relationship' when we are together as a family - when really it's just cake eating.

So, I thought it would be important to have a talk about what my boundaries are and why as it pertains to our relationship after the moves. Explain to her that; I believe she is still actively having EA's/PA's (details don't matter) and that I will not be ANYONE'S plan b. Therefore I don't see a lot of 'family' time for us until you are ready to actively work on your issues and our relationship. We will be 'friends' and we will work together as co-parents to make the transition for our children as smooth as possible - but our MR DOES NOT EXIST and if/when you are ready we can discuss the possibility of building something in the future - but not until you are done with OM!


It doesn't work. You and your WW have already made the decision to separate. She will see this as your way to control and/or punish her.

First, there's not a lot you can do about her cake eating as long as she's under the same roof with you. I think trying to just live peacefully for three more weeks would be the way to go, in this case. Why? B/c you've waited too late to start cracking the whip about how much cake she gets at this point. I mean, you can stop catering to her, things of that nature, but it doesn't require a R talk. In fact, it's more effective to just let her figure out why things have changed for her.

Now about discussing your boundaries...…...no, that is not effective, either. Your boundaries are set up to protect your feelings, and they don't have to be explained or negotiated in order to enforce them. Is this separation not the consequences of her dishonoring your boundaries, and the boundaries of the MR? Does she not know why you asked her to move out? See, I am wondering how this all went down and if you were clear about everything. Does she see herself leaving you b/c you lied to her? If that's the case, and since both of you are guilty of inappropriate behavior (at the least) and having an A (at the most)……….I can't see where this discussion would get you anywhere close to a positive note.

She does not really know why I asked her to move out. She thinks it just because I did not feel like she was working on the R. In reality it was because she slept with someone else (which was a boundary I set early on for staying in the house). <-- This is why I have such a drive to clarify and confront.

I'm sure it's frustrating to become better educated in DBing after the fact, so to speak. However, you can't go back now and try to say/do the things that should have been done before you told her to move out. Make sense?

I suggest you not do ANYTHING without running it by the board and giving it a couple of days. Years ago, 72 hours was the amount of waiting time suggested. These days, it's hard to get people to just hold up for a couple of days before they say or act on their feelings or act on something new they've read in a book. I also want to point out that the advice you may read on another person's thread, may not apply in your situation. People get carried away and think there is one set of rules that apply for every sitch under the sun.

I can give it a couple of days easily.. My thought is really to do it at the very end. Setting the groundwork for how our communication will abruptly change once she at the new address. so I've got 2-3 weeks

Quote
Therefore I don't see a lot of 'family' time for us until you are ready to actively work on your issues and our relationship.


No, no, you don't explain this to her. (She can't have family time if you don't partake.) This is something the WW can figure out for herself. If you take it upon yourself to tell her, then she'll mark it down to you being uncooperative. punitive, controlling, etc. But if she has to experience less family time, it will eventually occur to her that this is the consequences when families break up. She may not take complete responsibility for it ..….but that's not your decision to make. She may put the breakup all on your shoulders. There will have to be a lot of family therapy before the relationship heals, b/c of the cheating on both sides.

This makes a lot of sense to me! As far as family time I will NOT explain it. But what about she asks? "why can't we grab lunch with the kids after their football game? Really, I can't come in and see you when I drop off the kids? etc.

I want you to think of something about this cheating on both sides. I can't remember when you said you stopped everything, but I remember you confessed the A to your WW when you confronted her about her A. Although she was behaving like GGW and hooking up with guys, the news of your A's and the two years of lying was fresh to her. You had been snooping on her, and had known for awhile about her A, but she was hit all at once about you. If I am incorrect, tell me. I don't know if she had suspicioned you of cheating, but I can promise you she's going to throw it in your face if you approach her as "the more faithful spouse than her" with some of these things you want to say.

Noted. and you are correct about the time line and sitch. I stopped over 2yrs ago. I do not look at myself as the more faithful. Only the more recovered. and slightly more knowledgeable/educated on the causes.

With that said, how are you holding up through the withdrawals since you've stopped sexting?

Sexting was never the issue.. I think you mean 'snooping'. I'm definitely going through some withdrawal. It didn't really matter if it was good or bad information I received, it felt good to have something to do in regards to the sitch as well as getting immediate feedback for my LRT <-- I could understand/know how it was affecting her. But I will get there. I just keep telling myself that stopping now while she is in the house as a ramp down instead of a cold hard stop when she is no longer around is best for me.

I encourage you to keep coming to the board, and continue getting professional help. Focus on healing yourself first. ((hugs))

Yes, I will probably be even more active as this is where I can feel like "I'm doing something" for the sitch without messing up my DB!





H(me:) 44
W: 45
T: 16yrs
M: 13
S: 9
S: 6
Pre BD (not really recognized by either) 8/18
PA 11/18
PA suspected 12/22/18 (Denied)
PA confirmed 12/28/18
PA #2 (Different) 2/16/19
S: 4/7/2019

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I don't think I 'quoted' correctly in the above.. You have to read through to see where I answered your questions directly. Sorry!


H(me:) 44
W: 45
T: 16yrs
M: 13
S: 9
S: 6
Pre BD (not really recognized by either) 8/18
PA 11/18
PA suspected 12/22/18 (Denied)
PA confirmed 12/28/18
PA #2 (Different) 2/16/19
S: 4/7/2019

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Originally Posted by P_Jam

I have to admit that; Another Stander's comments "this is only another R talk" makes a little sense. But is there really NO benefit in having one to clarify my position? It is a R talk, but it is not pursuing. I don't see how it would set me back in anyway. But please continue to educate me.


Personally I don't think there's anything to be gained because she has a wayward mindset right now. She doesn't want to work with you on the M, she wants out. This isn't the time to negotiate or lay down rules. At some point she may hit rock bottom and decide she wants to come back. If she gets there, she will be humble, apologetic, and open to working with you for real. Until that happens there's just no point in discussing it because she's inside the castle with the drawbridge pulled up.

In my previous post I called her a "lying cheater". I don't do that to disparage her, I do it to drive home the point of who she is -right now-. She may have been a wonderful person before, and she may be again in the future. But right now she's engaging in immoral behavior and spinning it in her head to be all your fault. As long as she's in the wayward "lying cheater" mode there is just no reasoning or negotiating with her.


Me: 60 w/ S18, D24, D27

M: 21 years; BD: 06-14-12; S: 09-10-12; D final: 03-17-14; XW:57
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P,

Let go, let go, let go of trying to control your Sitch. Every action you ask us about is about getting a reaction from your WW. It's nothing you can say to change her mind. LBS speaks with actions. Only your actions will give you the best chance to save your M. Only when you completely let go and work on yourself and allow your WW to see a man of self respect and strength will you grow stronger and heal.

You have three weeks to speak with your actions. All the LBS, and I mean all have tried what you are trying. Trying to look and search for the right words or actions to change their spouse mind. Make the right moves, implement the right strategy. You can read, sitch after sitch, which I have, spend days on days searching for an answer in one of the Sitches, and the only things that ever worked was the LBS, working on healing themselves, building self respect, and holding to their boundaries.

Everything we tell you here is for you, and not for you to win your WW back. The constant drum beat from all the Vets will be, detach and work on healing. Let your WW go. No more holding on to her. Losing you is a huge lost, but she must feel it, she must feel it, no faking, really feel, she's losing you or have lost you. It can't be a trick or strategy.

You can't get dressed up to go GAL and then wait around to your WW see you to try and get an reaction. You can't walk pass her room to see if she notice you. You can't call her, and then make up a reason why you called her that don't make any sense. You can't tell her why you are leaving and what will happen to her when you are gone. Because, when a person is done and they have let go, they won't care what what their WS thinks. A person that respect themselves, won't care what other thinks, when they know they are doing the right thing.

It's time to move forward in confidence, strengthening your self-respect, learning to love yourself.

Most LBS ask about the LRT, thinking that it's a last ditch effort to win their spouses back. But, what it truly is, it's a life altering dynamic to change the person you were, to become a person only a fool would leave. It's time to gain space from all the pain and dysfunction to heal. Because the truth is your M can't work without healing. The LRT, is to help the LBS to start the process of working thru all the pain and emotions, the roller coaster. The ups and downs, without having the WW as a distraction. It it will hurt and be painful, down days, depressing moments. There will also be break thru, and growth. On the other side of the pain, is a brand new you. But the only way to get to that person, is thru the pain/process.

TD Jake's says, the only way to get to the success is going g thru the process. And in the process is pain and scarifice. The healing lies on the other side, not in the pain and scarifice, not before the pain and scarifice, only beyond them both. This will be hard work. Buckle up P!

Notice, that I never said the LRT was a process to fix your M! It's a process to fix YOU!!!!!

Onward and upward brotha.


M:37 W:37
T:11 M:10
S17, S13, S10, S4
BD:06/28/17
OM confirmed 07/20/17
Recon the M 10/29/17
Working hard:2gether

Onward and forward

This process is not a sprint it's a marathon! Patience, Patience, Patience.
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Maybe you can't see it in yourself, but you are still trying to control her. You are still trying to talk you way out of this mess. Emotional pressure and pursuit is not the answer to this problem.

I reread your first post, and I think she had already made the decision to leave you. She was looking for a place, but before she found one.....you tell her that you agree that things aren't working and you think she should leave. You chose not to disclose your knowledge of her one night stand. Maybe b/c she would figure out you were still snooping? IDK, but the point is that confronting her now, or trying to talk to her about compulsive behavior is not going to help the status of your MR. It won't cause her to respect you more.

You need to let go of this idea of confronting her about the latest PA. If it didn't do any good on the first one, it's not going to make much difference on the latest one. IMHO, you forfeited the best time to bring it up, so now that she's in the process of moving out.........don't give her a "parting shot".


It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
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joejoe1,
Very well written THANK YOU! This really helped me solidify my decision. See below.

Sandi,
I know..every question I've ever asked had something to do with control. I haven't really denied this. Although I know DB is about letting go and not controlling but for us newcomers (especially control freaks) this is extremely difficult to implement full scale (even when you see little results). Not to mention that I've now learned that "Nice Guys" do not learn quickly. smile As a rationalization/justification - even though I know its a form of control... It's really hard to believe that there aren't some opportunities where 'control' MIGHT help (especially in the short term for possible long term gain). My strategy has always been to try and plant some seeds in her mind that might sprout later. I just wanted to maximize this time while she is still in the house.

That being said;
I have decided to take the advice you both offer. I do not plan to have an 'exit interview' or give any parting shots. Not only that, I now feel very comfortable in that decision thanks to the above comments. I'm not even drawn to it at this point. Things are still difficult for me as she is still in the house. So having her around as a constant reminder of what I'm about to lose makes detaching VERY difficult. But I believe I have done a very good job inside the house on a daily basis. Admittedly SHE may have some subconscious feelings that I'm still attached. As you both make it clear that things really don't start to change until the rope is actually dropped. But as far as fake-it-till-you-make-it... I've done well (I think). Since BD2 (me asking her to move out). I have had the house painted, I have replaces the guest bedroom furniture (to replace what she is taking). I have not pursued or had ANY relationship talks. I have been cordial, nice but distant. I have focused on the kids. Furthermore, both her and my kids have had some form of the flue in the last 2 weeks. I have done my part to be helpful with the kids as well as polite in helping her a little with the situation (but not care taking). I know she has noticed. I'm not sure if its positive or negative - but she has done a good job in mirroring me. She no longer comes to pursue me for being distant (which [censored], but I have learned from this board it doesn't really matter at this point until she is truly remorseful which is most likely months possibly years away)

so.. onward and upward. I'm getting more comfortable in the unknown. Every time I think about the situation I've now learned to tell myself - THERE IS NOTHING TO THINK ABOUT! Nothing can be changed right now. Only made worse. So focus on me and fixing NGS. I continue with weekly IC and don't plan to stop. I will focus on GAL (maintaining a life actually). Although it will be tough in a different way (loneliness) i'm actually looking forward to her moving out. As it feels like then I will be able to start working on the 'next step' of more fully detaching. I'll still have some work to do on internalizing this for myself (and not as a tactic to get her back) but in time I believe I will be able to more fully surrender.

So on to my next questions for you experts. I've asked this a little before but I'm really have a tough time with this aspect of detaching and moving on... It's about relationships and OW. I understand that I should not be jumping into another "relationship" as I'm not emotionally ready and it's not fair to the OW. That being said; there are still other options than an emotional relationship. I'm a fit attractive guy and believe that I will have opportunities to fulfill my physical/sexual needs. Everyone says "no" don't do this (although we won't judge you if you do). My hang-up is: if I'm really detaching and getting to a point where I don't care about ANYTHING that she does, why is it such a no-no to start living my life as a 'single person'. She is! and I'm might end up being single anyway. It's really hard for me to think about my wife out doing girls gone wild while I essentially 'wait" - all at the same time as focusing on detachment? Speaking to my IC I know that this can be a bit of a 'crutch' and I need to focus on becoming centered in my loneliness but If I'm not engaging in a 'relationship' emotionally I don't believe these 2 things are mutually exclusive.

Thoughts/Examples - Pros/cons?


H(me:) 44
W: 45
T: 16yrs
M: 13
S: 9
S: 6
Pre BD (not really recognized by either) 8/18
PA 11/18
PA suspected 12/22/18 (Denied)
PA confirmed 12/28/18
PA #2 (Different) 2/16/19
S: 4/7/2019

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PJ,

I think you are doing a good job at realizing you are not in control of your situation and that you understand at least logically that you need to let her go.

As far as other woman goes I am a proponent of 2 consenting adults should be able to engage in certain activities without judgment.

Just know that if recon is your ultimate goal then this will not help your cause and will more then likely hurt your cause.

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Originally Posted by LH19
PJ,


Just know that if recon is your ultimate goal then this will not help your cause and will more then likely hurt your cause.


I can see how this is Possible I guess. But only from the perspective that if I did not have any other relationships it couldn't 'complicate' this anymore and could be considered more 'honorable'. But from her perspective (she wants out) and I've heard her say this is a risk/concern of hers (me finding someone else) ..

I guess what I'm saying is.. how could she expect that I wouldn't be trying to figure out what I want just the same as she is? Besides the fact that she's not acting logical now, but we're assuming that if recon is in the picture - she is back to thinking logically.

I know you probably don't have all the answers as this could be specific to the sitch/person - but I'm curious if I'm missing another risk here?

Ultimately, I think I would like this to go unnoticed by my W. I definitely would not be trying to advertise but I am also aware that there is a relatively high risk she will find out. We are both very close with our neighbors so at some point they might be filling her in on the coming and going around my house. Her getting Jealous is one possible positive. Which I think would happen, but I still would prefer her not to know, so I would not set this as a goal/reason.


H(me:) 44
W: 45
T: 16yrs
M: 13
S: 9
S: 6
Pre BD (not really recognized by either) 8/18
PA 11/18
PA suspected 12/22/18 (Denied)
PA confirmed 12/28/18
PA #2 (Different) 2/16/19
S: 4/7/2019

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Originally Posted by P_Jam
My hang-up is: if I'm really detaching and getting to a point where I don't care about ANYTHING that she does, why is it such a no-no to start living my life as a 'single person'. She is! and I'm might end up being single anyway. It's really hard for me to think about my wife out doing girls gone wild while I essentially 'wait" - all at the same time as focusing on detachment?


I started seeing women about a year after BD and it just really messed with my head for a while. I was with my XW for almost 25 years, and it just didn't feel right being with someone else. It's hard to explain but it was just a lot to go through on top of everything else. If I could rewind the clock I would have held off until after my D. I think I would have been better prepared for it mentally. I'm sure it affects different people in different ways so it's hard to say what your own experience would be.


Me: 60 w/ S18, D24, D27

M: 21 years; BD: 06-14-12; S: 09-10-12; D final: 03-17-14; XW:57
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PJ... I have been apart from my H for almost eight months now. Recently I have started "dating" but really just meeting people. I agree that two consenting adults should be able to do what they want but the implication is that both people know what they are consenting to. I think if you are honest with someone (i.e. I am not looking for an R...this is purely about meeting my physical/sexual needs) and they are still agreeable then go for it. Of course, if you do want to reconnect with your wife, then you will likely have to explain OP's involvement in your life so keep that in mind as well. I think that is what other's have mentioned - the possibility of making a complicated situation even more complicated.

In my sitch, I didn't even think about dating until I was sure in my own mind that reconnection is not in the cards and that I am okay with it. And I emphasize that I had to be sure in MY mind (and heart). TBH, I did not expect to be getting back out there this soon but now that I have, I know the timing is good for me and I am not doing more damage to myself or to anyone else. My conscience is clear and I have enjoyed meeting the guys that I have met and have made at least one new friend out of it. I don't think I would feel the same way if I was still thinking about my STBXH. Anyway...totally your call, of course. I would just be careful getting someone else involved at this stage who might be looking for more than just a hook up.

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Hi All,
Thanks to AS and DV for their input on dating and OW!

Just a little update and Journaling for your reading enjoyment:

Feeling really good the past couple of days. I think it's because I've stopped All snooping I have nothing to 'think' about and try to 'fix'. I'm able to look at the future (short term) and picture myself as single dad (every other week). I'm also able to feel excited about when I don't have the kids and GAL. I'm much more comfortable knowing that - I don't know what the future holds. I feel much lighter (especially today). I also feel more confident in what will most likely be my decision to see OW. Not a 'relationship' - I plan to be wide open with where I'm at. In fact this is a 'decision' I will need to make - as I have been talking with 2 other females because of this situation. One who is 9 months into her separation/divorce and already knows neither of us are actually ready for a relationship. I believe this will end up being a very good friendship. The other is 2yrs past her divorce and still doesn't want a relationship - but completely open to something physical <-- 2 consenting adults. Admittedly I feel a little guilty thinking/planning for such actions this soon. That being said; I also feel that with a WW that has completely disrespected me so much recently, it also feels like I'm just grabbing a hold of some self respect. Regardless of things I lacked in our relationship I do not deserve the recent treatment, continued lies and betrayal (especially after being caught). I believe that I still do want reconciliation but because of the complexity of this situation I'm wondering if it's even possible from her perspective. I know I could, but the steps she would need to take might just be too much for her to commit even if she decides she wants me back. I love her, but do not feel that I owe her the action of putting my sex life and complete detachment on hold. Furthermore, everyone one is convinced this will mostly take years to play out. I know for a fact I can't wait that long. Life it too short!

Update from around the house last couple of days:
W and S9 have been REALLY sick with a stomach bug. Both puking for 3 days straight. So I have been doing my best to help them both through this (without any pursuit). She's noticed too.. Last night she asked me for a hug. I looked at her a little funny then gave her a hug while she was laying down. She said "I bet this is really frustrating and annoying for you". I said: "not at all, you are both REALLY sick and I do not mind helping you both through this. I do not hate you." then I just let it go and walked away. I'm pretty sure she got the message. I'm here, I'm human I still care - but I'm not going to 'care take' and baby you through this. But I'm fine picking up prescriptions, getting you a glass of water, etc. - but the situation does not cause me to forget where you/we are. Not going to put to much weight on this.. but it feels like something Sandi mentioned.. "LIFE has a way of helping them feel reality". I'm sure she is feeling/noticing what she is giving up (security, family, etc) - not that it will change anything in the short term - but she is noticing that if this happened 2 weeks from now she would be all on her own. As none of her EA/PA's are far enough a long to take on this role. Of course I wanted to throw this in her face - but didn't.


H(me:) 44
W: 45
T: 16yrs
M: 13
S: 9
S: 6
Pre BD (not really recognized by either) 8/18
PA 11/18
PA suspected 12/22/18 (Denied)
PA confirmed 12/28/18
PA #2 (Different) 2/16/19
S: 4/7/2019

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I stopped posting in here b/c I think you completely ignored what I was saying and maybe you'll continue to do that, but I had to point one more thing you said that is crazy:

Originally Posted by P_Jam
but completely open to something physical <-- 2 consenting adults. Admittedly I feel a little guilty thinking/planning for such actions this soon. That being said; I also feel that with a WW that has completely disrespected me so much recently, it also feels like I'm just grabbing a hold of some self respect.


So why not just file for divorce? Why not wait until that is final? I don't agree with dating while married/separated/going through divorce but I understand why people do. In your case, you're going to have casual sex with an OW to get a hold of self respect? I just want to cringe. That's insecurity, not self respect.

Originally Posted by P_Jam
I believe that I still do want reconciliation but because of the complexity of this situation I'm wondering if it's even possible from her perspective.
And then one sentence later you post this. If you sleeping with another woman is what it takes to get your W back, that's a very bad sign. Do you want to fix things or no?

Originally Posted by P_Jam
As none of her EA/PA's are far enough a long to take on this role.
Are you sure you would know this?

I think you should take time to yourself and work on you. Be happy with you. Become strong independent you. Take care of your kids. Do the right things and create new habits. Good luck.


H 34
W 29
BD 3/12/18
Divorce Busted Spring 19

It is not things that bother us, but the stories we tell ourselves about things.
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Ovrrnbw,
Where did you think I was ignoring you? I looked back and saw one post related to having another conversation with my wife about the most recent PA - definitely did not ignore. Was actually going in that direction until others stated it really didn't have any positive outcome - so Why?

I respect your post. No need to stop.

I think you bring up some good points above. I'm not ignorant to the fact that some may be insecurity - meaning that I'm only supplementing my ego if I move forward with this. My point is, i'm not sure working on myself and having physical relationships need to be mutually exclusive. Things I haven't shared because they seem unimportant to the overall question I had to the board... I do plan to take a full sexual sabbatical per NMMNG. I'm 2.5 months in. and although my goal was 3 months I'll probably at least go another month after she is officially out of the house and have debating taking a full 6 months. This to work on myself and let my decision sink in.

When I say 'self respect' i'm not directing that towards the physical relationship. It's more about my feelings of no longer feeling sorry for myself in regards to my WW. Maybe some is anger (doesn't really feel like it though). I'm very dissapointed in what she has done but the fact remains - I'm really not sure if I want reconciliation. Deep down if I had to take read on my 'gut' I would say I do. But I don't know if this is because of what I really want, or if it's because it's what I know. That is why this time/space that we are creating should be utilized by both parties to figure out what THEY/WE want going forward. I'm not supposed to be doing anything 'for her'. All for myself. So.. why then is this such a no-no? Again, doesn't mean I'm going to do it tomorrow. But I am drawn to the idea and interested in hearing all points about the subject (yours included).

Right now she is out figuring out if she wants to reconcile or if she even wants to work on the relationship at all. I'm implying that I should do the same thing and that would also help detachment.

Of course, I still fee scorned, rejected as my wife of 16yrs have just dumped me for MULTIPLE 'tools'. No doubt It would be nice to feel wanted.

As for your feeling of not dating while going through Separation/divorce/ is this grounded in some religious factor? Based on the way you wrote it - I don't either. But with where things are now and how many people she has slept with in the last 3 months. I don't actually feel/agree that we are 'married' anymore. It's broken/gone. The first marriage is over. Anything reconciled from her is a new M. Period. Does not discount your opinion in regards to insecurity which I address above - but I do not feel I owe her any honor in regards to our 'current' M.


H(me:) 44
W: 45
T: 16yrs
M: 13
S: 9
S: 6
Pre BD (not really recognized by either) 8/18
PA 11/18
PA suspected 12/22/18 (Denied)
PA confirmed 12/28/18
PA #2 (Different) 2/16/19
S: 4/7/2019

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PJ,

It’s very unlikely that your W is thinking about whether she wants to reconcile or work on the marriage. Right now she is 100% convinced that getting rid of you is the key to her happiness. The only thing she is concerned with you right now is that you are still on the hook to be her back up plan.

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Originally Posted by LH19
PJ,

It’s very unlikely that your W is thinking about whether she wants to reconcile or work on the marriage. Right now she is 100% convinced that getting rid of you is the key to her happiness. The only thing she is concerned with you right now is that you are still on the hook to be her back up plan.


Hi LH! Thank you! I need you to keep reminding me this. Currently I haven't internalized this fully. I still believe that she is not 100% convinced that getting rid of me is the key to her happiness. I believe she is still genuinely confused and although she is doing her best to continue to justify her actions by making me the problem - it's not fully set in yet. <-- this is either my 'hope' or my naivete - only time will tell, so please continue to keep me on my toes. As I also know that even if I'm more right than you, my strategy for detachment and dropping the rope to work solely on myself does not change not matter who might be 'right'. And simple reminders like this help me get through the days that I'm not as confident - Like today. She is back from being sick and back to work and we are both working from home today. She is out now at her new apartment as her couch is getting delivered. Again, I hope these 'waves' subside a little when she is out of the house and I don't have/get to know everything that she is doing. My biggest fear at this point is that when she moves out and I try NC (accept for the kids) that she mirrors me and I see no results. <-- Yes, I know... this my issue with expectations and not detachment. But I believe we all go through this and it's a process. Hopefully as I'm working on myself the motivation for NC becomes more about me and not the expected results.

Update for you all on me seeing OW:
I had a good conversation with my IC yesterday. And although he generally agreed that I don't owe her anything, and that doing this MIGHT make detachment a little easier. It is important for me to really take the additional time after she moves out to face my loneliness head-on "A lone". Continue the sexual sabbatical AT LEAST one month after she is gone maybe 2. Be comfortable with the situation and myself let it all sink in before making this decision. There is really no right/wrong as this step is concerned unless the decision is made in haste. He reminded me that some of the motivation could be revenge. Even if it doesn't feel 'angry' it currently feels like a tit for tat. Furthermore, because some of the issues I need to work on (the reason I cheated) very likely are related to my want/need for OW right now - and that is something that I need to work through for my personal growth (or at least better understand) before I jump into it.

So, I plan to take this advice stay 'clean' while I go through the first initial steps of starting to heal (which really won't start until she is out of the house regardless of how long I have been refraining from sex).

Definitely the hardest thing I have EVER gone through, but for an anxious/control person that has always had issues with rumination/worry - I do still give myself some credit as I have been able to 'worry' less in this situation even though I"m not yet detached. Even on down days I find that writing here allows me to release and move on for the day. Still feeling a bit down, but not 'worrying' and not as focused on her.. just accepting that I'm sad today and this too shall pass.

so here is to another day! Thank you all for listening.


Last edited by P_Jam; 03/27/19 04:54 PM.

H(me:) 44
W: 45
T: 16yrs
M: 13
S: 9
S: 6
Pre BD (not really recognized by either) 8/18
PA 11/18
PA suspected 12/22/18 (Denied)
PA confirmed 12/28/18
PA #2 (Different) 2/16/19
S: 4/7/2019

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PJ,

I think you need to prepare yourself that in the beginning she will view it as better, mainly because she'll find new found freedom and has convinced herself that its what she wants. It may take six months or two years for reality to set in, but it certainly will.

It sounds like the real question is whether you are willing to wait that long.

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When my XW first moved out to her apartment you would have thought she was moving into a 6000 sq ft mansion she was so excited she could barely contain herself.


Married 14, Together 17
M: 44, W: 43, D: 8, D: 6
M: 46, W: 45. D: 10. D: 8 (CUR)
Bomb Dropped: 5/28/2017
Separation Date: 6/17/2017
Divorce Filed: 2/7/2018
Divorce Final: 4/12/2018
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LH,
Again you give sound advice. I've thought about that a lot but don't know how to prepare myself for such. Other than do what I"m doing. Continue to try and detach and work on myself and therefore also enjoy the new found freedom. I know from your perspective it's 99% Naivete but my 'gut' tells me differently. It could be the kids response when they finally realize what is about to happen to their lives (cause they are so young and at this point have really seen nothing different between us - they just know about the new apartment) and she is a truly devoted mother. Could be if/when she actually gets some IC as she has said she will. Could just be her missing me (as I know she has already had these feelings relatively strongly during IHS). Could be that none of the PA's/EA's work out to anything satisfying - or even better, the strong EA - doesn't even imply that he would leave his current wife/sitch for her. Could be a combination of all of the above. But deep down I feel that the work I'm doing on myself (180). The true effort to detach and the kids - is going to affect her. I know she still has a lot of love for me, this has really never been in question (currently may not respect me per NMMNG). She is just not 'happy' and the sooner she realizes that her happiness is more in her control than mine - she may lift out of this. Now, the bigger possibility is that I"m correct in the above, but she doesn't feel that we can actually R based on all of the cheating - she may not feel it's possible or worth it. <-- this seems more realistic then her continuing GGW for years. Again, i'm just sharing my feelings. I'm aware I could be completely wrong and you completely right. I'm doing everything I can to prepare for the worst. But this is how I"m currently feeling and don't know how to change it. I don't expect you to agree either. I continue writing as a form of my own therapy.

The fact remains that I have feelings that still oscillate in the other direction as well. If you look at my post from yesterday I was much more confident even when assuming the worst. At this point I'm getting much more confident in the unknown, but not more confident in worst case scenario.. If I could I would. My number 1-2 goals now is to SHOW her that I'm not available as an option while other affairs are going on. - Period. And detachment and focus on myself. Working these goals simultaneously should help me get to a better place emotionally as it relates to future options. But you are correct - I'm almost 100% positive that if I do this correctly (focusing on me and my issues) I most likely will not be an option for her 6 months to a year from now. That takes me back to the point of OW and me focusing on truly moving on (not waiting). If somehow we reconnect in a year just because her (or my) other options didn't work out - that's different than continuing to focus on her/DB and 'waiting'.


H(me:) 44
W: 45
T: 16yrs
M: 13
S: 9
S: 6
Pre BD (not really recognized by either) 8/18
PA 11/18
PA suspected 12/22/18 (Denied)
PA confirmed 12/28/18
PA #2 (Different) 2/16/19
S: 4/7/2019

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Originally Posted by TBSakaJ9
When my XW first moved out to her apartment you would have thought she was moving into a 6000 sq ft mansion she was so excited she could barely contain herself.


Did she have young kids to deal with at the time? And know.. that until last week I was still 'spying' and although she is doing what she can to make the best of it.. she isn't really excited for the change. She feels it necessary but feels a pit/knot in her stomach every time she goes there. <- now as LH says, this might change. She might get more excited as the freedom sets in (every other week) - but she's not as gung-ho right now.

Last edited by P_Jam; 03/27/19 06:19 PM.

H(me:) 44
W: 45
T: 16yrs
M: 13
S: 9
S: 6
Pre BD (not really recognized by either) 8/18
PA 11/18
PA suspected 12/22/18 (Denied)
PA confirmed 12/28/18
PA #2 (Different) 2/16/19
S: 4/7/2019

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Yep...my daughters were 8 and 6 the apartment was 1200 sq ft.. It doesn't matter they are away from you and that is all they care about. The time away from you and the kids is worth it to them.


Married 14, Together 17
M: 44, W: 43, D: 8, D: 6
M: 46, W: 45. D: 10. D: 8 (CUR)
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PJ, sounds like some good, sound advice from your IC. I wouldn't set a specific timeline to the sabbatical though, just take the time to recenter yourself and see how it goes. We all need to relearn to be happy alone before getting involved in relationships again even if they're limited to physical gratification. I think that's one thing most of us fear or feared after BD is the thought of being alone, maybe forever. Being alone can be a very good, healthy thing though. We need to relearn that we don't NEED someone in our lives to "complete us" (my IC absolutely hated that phrase!) Wanting someone is fine, needing them is not.

Last edited by AnotherStander; 03/27/19 06:45 PM.

Me: 60 w/ S18, D24, D27

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Originally Posted by TBSakaJ9
Yep...my daughters were 8 and 6 the apartment was 1200 sq ft.. It doesn't matter they are away from you and that is all they care about. The time away from you and the kids is worth it to them.


Wow.. see I'm not unique and I'm probably in for some real heartbreak and hard lessons in the coming months. Seems so impossible how these people COMPLETELY change and become someone you can't even recognize. I'll be looking to read about your sitch TBSakaJ9


H(me:) 44
W: 45
T: 16yrs
M: 13
S: 9
S: 6
Pre BD (not really recognized by either) 8/18
PA 11/18
PA suspected 12/22/18 (Denied)
PA confirmed 12/28/18
PA #2 (Different) 2/16/19
S: 4/7/2019

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No dude you are not unique. When they are done they are done and by the time 97% of the people make it here it is way too late. I also think I am being generous with the 97%.

Truthfully it is more to do about them than anything to do with you. We all could have been better spouses including them and you also could have been the perfect spouse and to some it wouldn't matter.

As soon as my children got to the point to where they were more self sufficient and she felt like she got through the hard years of when they were toddlers it was time for her to live the free life.

Getting child support from me and only having the kids 50% of time is like a vacation for her.


Married 14, Together 17
M: 44, W: 43, D: 8, D: 6
M: 46, W: 45. D: 10. D: 8 (CUR)
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PJ,

I call it groundhogs day around here because when a new person comes to the board and I read their story it is to the point where everything is predictable. The script the WW uses. The begging, pleading and denial the LBS does/is in. Are there one offs? Sure. Does everyone think their sitch is different? Yes.

Does it mean to lose hope? No. I can tell already that you will be fine one way or another. Now I can tell you that there is evidence to support that at some point you may have a good chance to recon. AS (please chime in) has in the past indicated that he had surveyed something like 12-13 LBS in real life and they had indicated that in (AS correct if I am wrong) in 10 of the instances the LBS attempted recon and I believe in the majority the LBS had already moved on.

I'm at 8 months from living with my ex and I am starting to see cracks in her foundation. Recently her contact has increased with me and I was just away for work and she texted the day I was leaving "I hope you have a safe trip home". Now does it mean she wants to recon? Not necessarily but I still must be on her mind.

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If everything is so predictable what (if any) similarities in Sitch's exist for those that have reconciled?


H(me:) 44
W: 45
T: 16yrs
M: 13
S: 9
S: 6
Pre BD (not really recognized by either) 8/18
PA 11/18
PA suspected 12/22/18 (Denied)
PA confirmed 12/28/18
PA #2 (Different) 2/16/19
S: 4/7/2019

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PJ,

We don't get the data because most don't come back to update but from everything seems to point to time, space and moving on (they can feel when you moved on). Take some time and read Accuray posts. IMO he understands the dynamics better then anybody.

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You know my XW has her moments. She will send me pictures of the kids and what they are doing, will still ask me for some advice but I will say she has not done what LH just wrote about telling me to have a safe trip.

I think what they all have in common is that the LBS had completely moved on with their life when the one that left came sniffing back around.

You can only control your side of the fence. I thought I was a DBing prodigy and did many things right than wrong however my XW has never shown an interest in returning. If she thought about it the thoughts were fleeting.

Really for it to happen the alignment has to be almost perfect.


Married 14, Together 17
M: 44, W: 43, D: 8, D: 6
M: 46, W: 45. D: 10. D: 8 (CUR)
Bomb Dropped: 5/28/2017
Separation Date: 6/17/2017
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Oh the irony of it all...

I'm still very hopeful that my sitch will show signs of R sooner rather than later although I do admit the R/piecing will be the long/hard part for our sitch (if we get there) - but I do feel I have the strength to keep that idea on the 'back burner' - meaning I'm committed to detachment - simply because waiting seems too painful.

TB, I quickly read you original posts. Some differences that I notice to my sitch to yours and others (although I need to read a lot more - will now be checking out Accuray per LH) - but from your thread and others that commented on it:

1. My wife has never said that she doesn't love me anymore
2. Has never said she's not attracted to me (actually said the opposite)
3. I never had a problem being over critical of my wife
4. I have/had a life (too much of one) this is one of the complaints at BD
5. She firmly believes I'm a good father <-- I'm confident she believes this 100% although I could have done more during MR
6. My wife makes pretty good money and although I'll be paying child support the amount will be very small. Basically just supplementing a little not supporting. But she has a lot of debt that is not mine - so my wife will feel a financial pinch
7. We live a VERY good lifestyle - Shes' Giving up country club, bigger vacations (for her and the kids), great neighborhood for her and the kids.
8. She works from home (which will now be the apartment) which she will spend A lot of time in (I think this will get a bit claustrophobic
9. BD was relatively confusing as she really didn't have a lot other than neglect of her and some household/parenting duties. Which I fully admit is true, but not from the degree perspective she's seeing it now. We have a large yard I do all my own yard work - so our relationship was more of a traditional one (she did inside the home, I did outside) - my point is; I was not absentee. But I definitely played too much golf on the weekends and left her with the kids alone WAY too much. <-- easily fixable.
10. Will not stop wearing her ring - and fought me when I told her to sell it for cash.

This is why I'm torn by the definition of WW or MLC - I do have some stuff to work on but looking back it does not seem to be that bad. My wife has no hobbies. Never really has, all she has ever wanted was to be a mom. Now that that is so fulfilling she's blaming a lot on me. Generally I know this is the 'script' but it seems that in a lot of other sitches there might have been a lot more negative things going on. I know this might be some repetition for those of you that have followed my thread - but my sitch feels more like a 'normal' growing apart and letting the kids dominate 100% leaving nothing for the MR. The WW has just been her way of acting out to find recognition/attention. She also has not neglected the kids too much during this entire sitch. Too much on her phone, not totally present but generally still very involved in every aspect. Has not 'dumped' any on me. I have started to do a lot more due to 180 - but she has not shown signs of really wanting to let go of everything. Furthermore, her WW lifestyle might have something to do with my cheating - which she just found out about (revenge) - maybe instead of her new way of life??

I know i"m still probably plan B in her head - but only because she doesn't know what she wants, not because she's so sure she doesn't want me.

I know, I know - let me have it. PLEASE! I only continue to write this stuff cause it's how I currently feel. And I may need the 2x4's upside the head to get me out of this thinking.


H(me:) 44
W: 45
T: 16yrs
M: 13
S: 9
S: 6
Pre BD (not really recognized by either) 8/18
PA 11/18
PA suspected 12/22/18 (Denied)
PA confirmed 12/28/18
PA #2 (Different) 2/16/19
S: 4/7/2019

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Originally Posted by LH19
PJ,


Does it mean to lose hope? No. I can tell already that you will be fine one way or another.



What makes you say this?


H(me:) 44
W: 45
T: 16yrs
M: 13
S: 9
S: 6
Pre BD (not really recognized by either) 8/18
PA 11/18
PA suspected 12/22/18 (Denied)
PA confirmed 12/28/18
PA #2 (Different) 2/16/19
S: 4/7/2019

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I don't think you need a 2x4 you just are still trying to rationalize and understand how this happened and how in the heck you got to this place. What your going through is perfectly normal. From my experience though you will probably never be able to understand it. I still don't understand mine but I have come to accept it.

The thing is Divorce does not discriminate between those who are wealthy, middle class or poor. It very well could have nothing to do with you.

The one thing you are guilty of is trying to place tangible items on the reason why she should stay. Trips, cars, houses, etc. Do you really want her to stay because of those things? You want her to stay because of the love she has for you not what material items or status she stands to lose.


Married 14, Together 17
M: 44, W: 43, D: 8, D: 6
M: 46, W: 45. D: 10. D: 8 (CUR)
Bomb Dropped: 5/28/2017
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Wow.. as I write/wrote all of the above - it's clear I'm having a pretty tough day today. On one hand trying to defend my sitch and how 'positive' it might be compared to others. I'm now realizing I might have been having a few good days as my wife was down with the flu. I was able to be 'helpful' without pursuing. I was able to feel like I was 'doing something', I was able to give a hug when asked, but also show that it was authentic on only the most basic human level. I was DB'ing! But still doing it for her.

Now as she's better and having conversations with me... I ALMOST LOST ALL OF MY GROUND. She was talking to me about the kids and homework schedule after she moves out. And this almost came out of my lips "So, how are you feeling about all of this?" - I really wanted a temperature check after the last few days. I know some of this is also withdrawals from snooping as I would normally be able to snoop and find out what she says to others.

now I'm in the dumps, unable to focus on the work I need to do, and spending time on this board trying to 'solve' my problem. Which is impossible!

I've found some good posts which directed me to a book I will start to read tonight - "Daring Greatly" about how to be vulnerable. Also going to reread all of Sandi's post about WW.

Good news! The above words DID NOT COME OUT OF MY MOUTH. Was calm and never discussed anything then what she brought up about the kids. Whew.. although the urge was strong I'm sure the regret after would have been even stronger.

Deep breath! Back to work - needed to dump.


H(me:) 44
W: 45
T: 16yrs
M: 13
S: 9
S: 6
Pre BD (not really recognized by either) 8/18
PA 11/18
PA suspected 12/22/18 (Denied)
PA confirmed 12/28/18
PA #2 (Different) 2/16/19
S: 4/7/2019

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Originally Posted by TBSakaJ9
I don't think you need a 2x4 you just are still trying to rationalize and understand how this happened and how in the heck you got to this place. What your going through is perfectly normal. From my experience though you will probably never be able to understand it. I still don't understand mine but I have come to accept it.

The thing is Divorce does not discriminate between those who are wealthy, middle class or poor. It very well could have nothing to do with you.

The one thing you are guilty of is trying to place tangible items on the reason why she should stay. Trips, cars, houses, etc. Do you really want her to stay because of those things? You want her to stay because of the love she has for you not what material items or status she stands to lose.


First, thanks for your reply.

No, I do not want her to stay for those things. Its not that she can't survive and even thrive without me. It's only hope that the lifestyle she is currently living does not fulfill her and that along with all of the other 'pinches' (space, security, family, money) causes her to break the affair fog. I'm only implying/thinking that the rush/feeling of the affairs and the lifestyle doesn't really go on that long because of all of this (including the big one of loss of marriage). This is coupled with the thought/believe that our life/relationship really was not THAT bad. And that her happiness is fully in her control (without girls gone wild lifestyle) - with me or even with somebody else.

You're right - I'm grasping for her to find some logic in her situation. That would seemingly make it easier even if she didn't chose me again. At least then I could better understand the reason(s) this is happening.


H(me:) 44
W: 45
T: 16yrs
M: 13
S: 9
S: 6
Pre BD (not really recognized by either) 8/18
PA 11/18
PA suspected 12/22/18 (Denied)
PA confirmed 12/28/18
PA #2 (Different) 2/16/19
S: 4/7/2019

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I really hope she turns it around but I think you really need to prepare for the worst. Its an unfortunate situation but as LH says it has to get worse before it gets better. There is also really no logic to the situation. What wife would want to give up her family, her house, her husband, etc. to go live in a apartment to go have an affair??? To her it makes sense but to you its not logical.

When I started to believe that it was more about her than me it helped. Not going to lie though I cried my eyes out, could not sleep at night, and didn't eat for over a week. I couldn't even mow the yard without breaking down. In many ways it felt like a death. I remember hanging on every word, not being able to understand how she could do this to the kids. 2 years later I still have no answers but I am not the only one either.

Just know it gets better, eventually you hate feeling like crap, you will experience every emotion you can think of and swing back and forth between them all. You can hope all you want just don't let that hope stop you from moving forward. You do have a long road ahead of you and you will get tired of analyzing her every move.

It is a very good thing that you stopped snooping.

When LH said you will be fine either way he mean that whether you recon with your W or not he knows that YOU will ne just fine either way.

Just remember you are the prize and you don't want to be with someone that doesn't want to be with you.


Married 14, Together 17
M: 44, W: 43, D: 8, D: 6
M: 46, W: 45. D: 10. D: 8 (CUR)
Bomb Dropped: 5/28/2017
Separation Date: 6/17/2017
Divorce Filed: 2/7/2018
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Originally Posted by P_Jam
If everything is so predictable what (if any) similarities in Sitch's exist for those that have reconciled?


They follow a fairly predictable pattern:

The LBH cries and begs and pleads for the WAW to recon. They don't.

The LBH tries every trick, technique and 12 step program they can come up with to get the WAW to recon. They don't.

The LBH pretends to move on, makes a big show of how they are moving on, posts stuff on FB, says things to friends and family, all geared towards tricking the WAW into think they've moved on to get the WAW to recon. They don't.

The LBH realizes it really is over, she really is done, there's no saving things. He moved on, gets a life, finds contentment and eventually happiness again, let's go of his WAW with no ill feelings.

Time passes.

The WAW misses the LBH, remembers he's a pretty cool guy that she had a lot of fun with, reaches out to him in small ways.

Then usually reverse BD, she's sorry for everything, wishes there was a way to get back together. Is there?

PJ, the obvious trick here is you really well and truly have to move on. It's the only way. The longer you postpone moving on the longer it will take for her to come out of the fog. You've got to let her go and get busy working on you.


Me: 60 w/ S18, D24, D27

M: 21 years; BD: 06-14-12; S: 09-10-12; D final: 03-17-14; XW:57
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PJ,

I can usually get a pretty good feel early on how things will play out for a poster early on. Some have their b@lls so far down their Ws purse that I know their chances are slim and they don't want to do the work so they will continue to struggle in life. Some jump right into another relationship and most likely will be back here in 5 years. You I believe will be fine once you get her out of the house and you are able to stabilize the feelings you are having right now.

I was happy to see your follow up post to TBS acknowledging that your are BSing yourself that your sitch is different. It is NOT. In fact has a lot of similarities to mine.

I mentioned Accuray to you and the following is a post from him that IMO every LBS just follow immediately:

Your wife believes you are the reason she is unhappy. As you probably know, the only way she's going to overcome that deeply held belief is for you to open the cage door and completely cut her free. If you engage in a relationship with her again it should only be under the conditions that:

1) She sees you as someone of extremely high value
2) She views a relationship with you as something much better than a life with someone else or a life alone
3) She's willing to work to win you

Without those three things, she's going to walk again down the line, because she really doesn't have the motivation to work with you to change anything, your relationship will keep seeking the same equilibrium it has had because of how your personalities and issues come together.

Given that you have to make things worse before they can possibly get better, separation may not be a bad choice, but I would advise pursuing a separation with the same rules you would have if you were divorced, which is to say that you don't continue to co-mingle your lives (aside from the kids) and you are free to live your own lives without social accountability to the other person.

That way she can really see if that way of life is better or worse for her. Prepare yourself that in the beginning she will view it as better, mainly because she'll find new found freedom and has convinced herself that it’s what she wants. It may take six months or two years for reality to set in, but it certainly will.

My advice would be to lean in to what she wants, agree to separate, and work productively with her on the plan with the presentation that you're on board and plan to enjoy this change also. That's going to make her wonder. You want her to wonder what you're thinking, and from this point forward you shouldn't tell her anything about your frame of mind -- nothing at all.

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^^^^^^^ That's perfect. That is exatcly the answer we are all looking for.
Originally Posted by AnotherStander
Originally Posted by P_Jam
If everything is so predictable what (if any) similarities in Sitch's exist for those that have reconciled?


They follow a fairly predictable pattern:

The LBH cries and begs and pleads for the WAW to recon. They don't.

The LBH tries every trick, technique and 12 step program they can come up with to get the WAW to recon. They don't.

The LBH pretends to move on, makes a big show of how they are moving on, posts stuff on FB, says things to friends and family, all geared towards tricking the WAW into think they've moved on to get the WAW to recon. They don't.

The LBH realizes it really is over, she really is done, there's no saving things. He moved on, gets a life, finds contentment and eventually happiness again, let's go of his WAW with no ill feelings.

Time passes.

The WAW misses the LBH, remembers he's a pretty cool guy that she had a lot of fun with, reaches out to him in small ways.

Then usually reverse BD, she's sorry for everything, wishes there was a way to get back together. Is there?

PJ, the obvious trick here is you really well and truly have to move on. It's the only way. The longer you postpone moving on the longer it will take for her to come out of the fog. You've got to let her go and get busy working on you.



^^^^ That is the perfect template, that is exactly the answer most of us are looking for.

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Originally Posted by LH19
You want her to wonder what you're thinking, and from this point forward you shouldn't tell her anything about your frame of mind -- nothing at all.


Listen to LH—he is a huge help towards me, and is not afraid to beat people with the reality stick when they truly need it (and I’ve needed it time to time).

I want to focus on this last point, because this is where I’ve been the last few months, and it’s made my W absolutely nuts. She wants to know what I’m thinking / how I’m feeling about things—and I’ve told her very little, if anything for the last few months, and she can’t stand it.


M: 36
W: 30
T: 9
M: 7

S6 (OS)
S7mo (YS)

ILYBINILWY BD: Feb. ‘18

W Wants S / D BD: 1/4/19

H / W still in-house

D papers from W: 3/14/19
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[quote=


PJ, the obvious trick here is you really well and truly have to move on. It's the only way. The longer you postpone moving on the longer it will take for her to come out of the fog. You've got to let her go and get busy working on you.[/quote]


This I know logically and I"m doing everything I can to get there emotionally. Generally I feel like I've done a pretty good job overall. If we look at the timeline (although BD date is a little complicated due to me catching confronting PA, as well as admitting to my previous infidelity) - Real BD for both was probably around mid to late Jan. I did 180 between late December and late January without her knowing I knew about PA. The begging and pleading proceeded for a couple of weeks after I confronted her. In hindsight this might have been better if I knew about DB, but I've also heard that it's not so bad to show some fight/support for the marriage at first anyway. Second PA (one night stand) was second week in Feb. I have not confronted her specifically about this PA (although she thinks I MIGHT know from people telling me). but one week after this PA I agreed that she needed move out and gave her 30 days. Essentially this is when I broke up with her - although I regret not letting her know exactly what I knew at the time. She will be out of my house the second week in April (and the week before that I'm gone on a golf trip). So I've got 2-4 more days of us sleeping in the same house (spread out over 2 weeks). Within all of this time frame I have jumped to have the house painted (the colors she always wanted - although they were well agreed to over a year ago so not like I was throwing it in her face too much). Replaced and built all bedroom furniture for the guest room (this is the stuff she is taking). Replaced aging chandelier that has been on the to-do list for a while since we shopped for the light together - it was just too high for me to replace. Doing everything I can to do kids lunches, arrange for new nanny/babysitters that support ME and my needs after she is gone (this was normally handled by her parents/niece). Have not had any relationship talks at all in the last 3 weeks. Pulled away enough that she has confronted me twice about being more 'friendly' in the house. One exception to relationship talk was when we met to discuss how we were going to tell the kids. During this conversation I did give her one more chance to reconsider (futile as leases were already signed) - but I just asked.. "Are you sure this is what you want" - she said "No, but we are here now and we need to move forward". - I agreed and that was it. I have maintained my GAL - still playing golf when appropriate (without too much burden on her with the kids). Celebrated my birthday without her (specifically let her know she was not invited). Taken "my" time on the weekends to have a couple of late nights out with friends.

I have since leveled off and been more 'friendly' in the house as I don't want to show anger. But I don't say goodbye when I leave. I only tell her where I'm going and timeline if its pertinent to having to pick up the kids or their care. Done more than my fair share of laundry and took care of everything while she and S9 were down with the flu for 2 weeks. In summary I think I've done a very good job showing her that I can EASILY survive without her. From my perspective, the ONLY thing missing is true emotional detachment - which I don't believe is realistic for ANYONE this early. I believe the fake-it-till-you-make-it has gone very well. Of course it doesn't have the full affect of being fully detached - but I think this is definitely more if an underlying current for her. I have no way to confirm, but this has to have some affect. Even if it doesn't take root until later. She is not leaving this house thinking that I will be a mess/wreck. I can guarantee that! Not to mention that one of my best friends just bought the house across the street from me. That house has a pool. His wife is a well qualified special needs teacher who is also going to be helping with nanny duties. My summer is set for GAL already and she knows it!

One other thing that is kinda pertinent... We technically are NOT married. Been 'engaged' for 13 years together 16. Because of our ages at the time of engagement and the strong want to start a family we both just put off the actual ceremony and cost to focus on having our 2 children. After that it was all about them and the paperwork was never that important. This is important because; I'm the only one with an attorney right now. I'm working with them to legalize the 50/50 parenting plan, as well as draft a document that she will need to sign agreeing to give up any rights to any other mutual assets once she accepts my lump sum transition payment, as well as agree and document the child support amount. The house and my car are only in my name. Her car is only in her name. She knows all of this. The lump sum amount is agreed to but document or check has not yet been signed. Child support (because of what she makes) is very realistic and might be slightly in favor of me. But she would have to spend A LOT of attorney money to get A LITTLE more and the net affect for what she could get would be a net loss. My point in telling you all this now is: once these 2 documents are signed and she is out. We are essentially divorced. In the future she can always go back and request more child support as things change - but generally speaking we are legally done. This could be good or bad for me - but considering a WW I see it as good. I can always wait/reconcile regardless if it turns that direction. But I'm also making it clear that this issue is 'completed' and if she so chooses to come back - we will address those issues then. I have also continued to tell her (every time she confronted me) - this is her relationship to save - not mine! Our first 'marriage' is over. If/when you want a new one with me - let me know.

Let me know if/where I screwed up - but part of me feels like this is DB at it's finest (once the strategy was recognized). Now to make it official by fixing my issues and fully moving on!

I still have a couple of questions for all of you that I will post soon, as I know there will be more conversations she starts once we begin to actually sign all the documents. I've addressed it a little, but with some nuance changes I want some more feedback. More to come (hopefully I can write it even today).


H(me:) 44
W: 45
T: 16yrs
M: 13
S: 9
S: 6
Pre BD (not really recognized by either) 8/18
PA 11/18
PA suspected 12/22/18 (Denied)
PA confirmed 12/28/18
PA #2 (Different) 2/16/19
S: 4/7/2019

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I dont think you screwed up per se I just think you need to have a realistic expectation of how long all of this will take for her to potentially view you in a different light. More than likely it will take years. You are still in the documenting trying to rationalize and comprehend phase, thinking that one singular thing you do or have done is going to make or break your sitch. Truthfully it is a culmination of many different things and years of her walls coming down to make a difference.


Married 14, Together 17
M: 44, W: 43, D: 8, D: 6
M: 46, W: 45. D: 10. D: 8 (CUR)
Bomb Dropped: 5/28/2017
Separation Date: 6/17/2017
Divorce Filed: 2/7/2018
Divorce Final: 4/12/2018
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Originally Posted by Bo562
Originally Posted by LH19
You want her to wonder what you're thinking, and from this point forward you shouldn't tell her anything about your frame of mind -- nothing at all.


Listen to LH—he is a huge help towards me, and is not afraid to beat people with the reality stick when they truly need it (and I’ve needed it time to time).

I want to focus on this last point, because this is where I’ve been the last few months, and it’s made my W absolutely nuts. She wants to know what I’m thinking / how I’m feeling about things—and I’ve told her very little, if anything for the last few months, and she can’t stand it.


Bo562,

This is a great lead in to my questions. As we get closer to her moving out and finalizing all documents I'm 98% sure she is going to start a conversation that revolves around this subject: "Are we still working on this relationship or not?" Because the separation has always been about time/space to get over the 'bugging" and to figure out if we can/should work on this with all the infidelity or not. Although I know now she really has some stuff to work through personally before anything can happen together - but for the sake of the kids and the basic facade that this relationship has a chance.. I believe this conversation will happen and relatively soon. I've asked a version of this question before and took the advice of the board. However, I believe the situation will be slightly different this time (maybe you well see it as nuanced, IDK) but...

I have not specifically addressed her last PA which was a one night stand "girls gone wild". <-- I know A LOT of detail about this event (too much). I also have played 'dumb' to the fact that she is still chatting with original PA that I caught. They have not seen each other again but they are chatting. <-- probably doesn't matter either way. But as I picture and prepare for the future conversation there is 2 specific ways I could go - Maybe 2.5.

1. Stick to the most basic script as I have already have - which focuses much less on talk and actions only.
2. Essentially, make it clear in words as well as actions how much I know. <-- This feels right for a couple of reasons and I'll elaborate below - most importantly she is still playing the "I was pushed to this affair by you" card and furthermore has yet to acknowledge the depth of 'girls gone wile' - which to me is big. She tries to play that the one PA (which I was willing to forgive) is the only real issue and the rest is about my snooping/bugging and previous infidelity.
2.5. Somewhere in between

Here is what feels right - right now:

W: Are we still working on this relationship or not?

Me: I will not be in an open marriage/relationship with you. Nor will I 'wait' around and try to compete with:
James -EA
Parker EA/PA
Or random guys that you want to sc&ew in your car.

(names have been changed to protect the guilty)

I have issues that I need to work on that did affect how we got to this point, but these affairs are your choice and your issue to resolve. The rush is like a drug addiction (whether you recognize it or not). If you think you can find happiness with one or all of them - then I want you to be with them. I've been here for 16yrs through thick and thin (but still not to discount what I still have to work on). You know who I am. If you don't want to be with me, I don't want to be with you. I am not a relationship option as long as these guys are still in the picture. Therefore, our ability to 'work on this relationship' is completely up to you - same as I've always said. I know these guys are still in the picture therefore I am not! I am moving on (with hope you will comeback someday) - but I cannot promise I will still be available for you then.

My focus in myself and the kids. Not you anymore. I don't care who/what you do and am glad that I don't have to have you around to lie to me on a daily basis. I'm done - until you are done with this lifestyle - period. I love you, I love our history and I believe we could get through this -but only after you have addressed you and your choices.



I have brought this up to the board before and agreed that I don't need to have this conversation un-provoked. But if/when she addresses our relationship I like this response. It does 2 things. Allows me to address my knowledge of girls gone wild. Which I believe to be important to her recognizing her situation is getting worse not better. I provides a full insight as to why I went from begging to detachment and moving on. It also sets the stage clearly for any future conversation about our relationship. She can no longer 'act' like she had one small indiscretion (similar to me). She is no longer able to have the 'high ground' when she compares our mutual mistakes.


Thoughts?


H(me:) 44
W: 45
T: 16yrs
M: 13
S: 9
S: 6
Pre BD (not really recognized by either) 8/18
PA 11/18
PA suspected 12/22/18 (Denied)
PA confirmed 12/28/18
PA #2 (Different) 2/16/19
S: 4/7/2019

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My comments below are from your girl friends point of view:

Originally Posted by P_Jam
The begging and pleading proceeded for a couple of weeks after I confronted her. In hindsight this might have been better if I knew about DB, but I've also heard that it's not so bad to show some fight/support for the marriage at first anyway.

He is begging and pleading for another chance when I cheated on him. His value has dropped in my eyes.
Originally Posted by P_Jam
Within all of this time frame I have jumped to have the house painted (the colors she always wanted - although they were well agreed to over a year ago so not like I was throwing it in her face too much). Replaced and built all bedroom furniture for the guest room (this is the stuff she is taking). Replaced aging chandelier that has been on the to-do list for a while since we shopped for the light together - it was just too high for me to replace.

Oh now he's going to do all the things I wanted done for years. Too little too late.
Originally Posted by P_Jam
Doing everything I can to do kids lunches, arrange for new nanny/babysitters that support ME and my needs after she is gone (this was normally handled by her parents/niece).

Oh now he's going to make the kids lunches and arrange babysitters. Too little too late.
Originally Posted by P_Jam
Have not had any relationship talks at all in the last 3 weeks. Pulled away enough that she has confronted me twice about being more 'friendly' in the house. One exception to relationship talk was when we met to discuss how we were going to tell the kids. During this conversation I did give her one more chance to reconsider (futile as leases were already signed) - but I just asked.. "Are you sure this is what you want" - she said "No, but we are here now and we need to move forward". - I agreed and that was it.

Of course now he's going to walk around the house acting like a dick because i won't give him another chance. Well he just gave me another chance to reconsider so he's still on the hook. I'll throw him a bone and say "no I am not sure" to keep his hopes up.
Originally Posted by P_Jam
But I don't say goodbye when I leave.

LOL. He thinks he's punishing me by not saying good bye.


The rest are just my comments:

Originally Posted by P_Jam
From my perspective, the ONLY thing missing is true emotional detachment - which I don't believe is realistic for ANYONE this early.

You are correct. Most likely 6 months to a year for true detachment.

Originally Posted by P_Jam
His wife is a well qualified special needs teacher who is also going to be helping with nanny duties. My summer is set for GAL already and she knows it!

Why do you need a nanny? You should be spending as much time with your kids as possible when you have them.

Originally Posted by P_Jam
After that it was all about them and the paperwork was never that important.

My guess is it was very important to her.

Originally Posted by P_Jam
This is important because; I'm the only one with an attorney right now.

That's good that you got an attorney.

Originally Posted by P_Jam
But I'm also making it clear that this issue is 'completed' and if she so chooses to come back - we will address those issues then. I have also continued to tell her (every time she confronted me) - this is her relationship to save - not mine! Our first 'marriage' is over. If/when you want a new one with me - let me know.

DO NOT MENTION THIS AGAIN. Stop making her believe she can come back whenever she wants and work on the relationship.

I will say it again. You want her to wonder what you're thinking, and from this point forward you shouldn't tell her anything about your frame of mind -- nothing at all.

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Originally Posted by TBSakaJ9
I dont think you screwed up per se I just think you need to have a realistic expectation of how long all of this will take for her to potentially view you in a different light. More than likely it will take years. You are still in the documenting trying to rationalize and comprehend phase, thinking that one singular thing you do or have done is going to make or break your sitch. Truthfully it is a culmination of many different things and years of her walls coming down to make a difference.


I do not deny this at all. But I also do not believe I will be on this board updating my sitch for years. Maybe i'll stick around to help others. but if this really takes years, I don't count myself 'in' between now and then. So for me, it's about maximizing the opportunities (whether they really exist or not). As well as saying these things out loud and to her face so that I can also better internalize them. To truly detach - I need to not care about her - which means I need to move on. That will be my focus. So call it what you want... as long as there isn't some hard facts that says this will actually make it worse - my perspective is to be forward and upfront on my way 'out the door'.


H(me:) 44
W: 45
T: 16yrs
M: 13
S: 9
S: 6
Pre BD (not really recognized by either) 8/18
PA 11/18
PA suspected 12/22/18 (Denied)
PA confirmed 12/28/18
PA #2 (Different) 2/16/19
S: 4/7/2019

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Originally Posted by P_Jam
Thoughts?

(Me slapping my forehead)
If she asks:
After everything that has happened, I need time and space to think about what I want in the future.

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As LH lined out there is nothing you can do right now or any time soon to make a difference. Do what you want, say what you want she doesnt care. You can do nothing to help but quite a bit to hurt it. If you ever want a shot in the future the sooner you start laying the ground work for that to happen the better


Married 14, Together 17
M: 44, W: 43, D: 8, D: 6
M: 46, W: 45. D: 10. D: 8 (CUR)
Bomb Dropped: 5/28/2017
Separation Date: 6/17/2017
Divorce Filed: 2/7/2018
Divorce Final: 4/12/2018
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Originally Posted by LH19
Originally Posted by P_Jam
Thoughts?

(Me slapping my forehead)
If she asks:
After everything that has happened, I need time and space to think about what I want in the future.



LOL!!

I guess I just can't seem to comprehend how the soft 'mystery' approach is better than the in your face tough love approach.

Although I do understand now how/why not to say things like: This is your relationship to save.. etc.. This makes sense to me.

As far as the other specific comments you made to my earlier post (Thanks!). I know from her perspective that definitely could be how she is taking it. That being said I"m not sure what else I should have done. I was planning to get the house painted this year anyway (things just worked out to jump on it now), we already had the light I was 1. just keeping busy 2. taking the leadership to get things done (some 180). Damned if you do, damned if you don't. so I feel okay that I "DID".

Nanny.. probably the wrong term. It's more about having my own resources for babysitters or people to help me pick up the kids from school daycare when I'm tied up with work. My W has been very protective of who watches our kids (as I have one with unique issues (not quite special needs) but high risk allergies). So our child care has only revolved around her family. So I needed to get my own resources set up.

in short.. yes too little too late (she has said this once to me when I had a conversation about her going out) basically I said I didn't care she can do what she wants. But generally I still feel that she should see some of my 180's even if it is too late.


H(me:) 44
W: 45
T: 16yrs
M: 13
S: 9
S: 6
Pre BD (not really recognized by either) 8/18
PA 11/18
PA suspected 12/22/18 (Denied)
PA confirmed 12/28/18
PA #2 (Different) 2/16/19
S: 4/7/2019

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Originally Posted by P_Jam
Here is what feels right - right now:

W: Are we still working on this relationship or not?

Me: I will not be in an open marriage/relationship with you. Nor will I 'wait' around and try to compete with:
James -EA
Parker EA/PA
Or random guys that you want to sc&ew in your car.


First, when she asks if you're working on things, what you need to hear in your head is "Are you still on as Plan B?" Because that's really what she's asking. Just respond with something like "I think we both have a lot of work we need to do on ourselves before we get to the point of discussing that."

EDIT- time to start a new thread! Use the same title with "part 2" after it. Link your last post in this thread to the first post in the new one, and link your first post in the new one to this thread and type a brief synopsis in your first post of the new one.

Last edited by AnotherStander; 03/28/19 06:12 PM.

Me: 60 w/ S18, D24, D27

M: 21 years; BD: 06-14-12; S: 09-10-12; D final: 03-17-14; XW:57
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PJ,

It's ok to do the things you need to get done around the house as long as you are not looking for a reaction from her when you do it.

You are new to the game and are learning the rules. This $hit isn't easy and it takes time. Keep posting and keep asking questions.

Last edited by Cadet; 03/28/19 07:04 PM. Reason: Start a new thread message
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H(me:) 44
W: 45
T: 16yrs
M: 13
S: 9
S: 6
Pre BD (not really recognized by either) 8/18
PA 11/18
PA suspected 12/22/18 (Denied)
PA confirmed 12/28/18
PA #2 (Different) 2/16/19
S: 4/7/2019

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