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Originally Posted by Steve
Fear is a good description for a lot of my motivations.


fear is the great motivator.....so they say


Originally Posted by Steve
She is only the 2nd person I've ever let get this close to me, and I was burned badly by the first. And have been burnt by her as well. For someone that has trouble trusting out of the gate, that definitely has an impact.



What happened with #1 ?


Originally Posted by Steve
Fear of vulnerability was the first thing that came to mind when I was reading your post.



Thats what love is buddy....being vulnerable and being able to share that with the person that you are the most vulnerable with...

To fear vulnerability, is to fear love, to fear commitment, to fear intimacy...

Why do you fear being vulnerable ???

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Originally Posted by Mach1
Originally Posted by Steve
Fear is a good description for a lot of my motivations.


fear is the great motivator.....so they say


Originally Posted by Steve
She is only the 2nd person I've ever let get this close to me, and I was burned badly by the first. And have been burnt by her as well. For someone that has trouble trusting out of the gate, that definitely has an impact.



What happened with #1 ?


Originally Posted by Steve
Fear of vulnerability was the first thing that came to mind when I was reading your post.



Thats what love is buddy....being vulnerable and being able to share that with the person that you are the most vulnerable with...

To fear vulnerability, is to fear love, to fear commitment, to fear intimacy...

Why do you fear being vulnerable ???






Long story with #1. I've told some of it here already, long time on again, off again R. She would reel in and then push me away. Wanted me close enough to be in her life but not be together exclusively. This went on for nearly 20 years. It ended with me hurt pretty badly.

I think that's why I fear being vulnerable. But I'll have to continue exploring that in C.


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Originally Posted by Steve85
. She would reel in and then push me away. Wanted me close enough to be in her life but not be together exclusively. This went on for nearly 20 years. It ended with me hurt pretty badly.


Are ya upset that she did that to you ??

Or that you allowed it to happen.... ???

Or better yet, that you allowed that to happen for nearly 20 years ???

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Originally Posted by Mach1
Originally Posted by Steve85
. She would reel in and then push me away. Wanted me close enough to be in her life but not be together exclusively. This went on for nearly 20 years. It ended with me hurt pretty badly.


Are ya upset that she did that to you ??

Or that you allowed it to happen.... ???

Or better yet, that you allowed that to happen for nearly 20 years ???


Yes.


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Answered Jeep's question in his thread about things to 180 on. Seemed to be well received so I am documenting it here as well in case it helps anyone else. I should note, it was a very good exercise creating this response. It made me really stop and assess just what it was I changed a year ago.

Originally Posted by Steve85
I reversed on a lot of bad behavior. Here they were:

- Overly critical of her housekeeping
- Very short-tempered, when she tried to get my attention I would let it be known she was interrupting me
- Very impatient with her, my D, stranger in the car in front of me, etc.
- Very withdrawn in my own world, watched TV a lot by myself in MBR (W and D were in livingroom)
- Came to dinner, prayed for thanksgiving, ate as fast as I could, went right back into MBR
0r - Came to dinner, prayed for thanksgiving, took food into MBR and ate by myself
- Nicer to strangers and acquaintances than to her
- Made cutting jokes about her around friends and family
- Criticized everything she did. How she drove, how much toothpaste she put on her toothbrush, etc.
- Left all household duties to her (taking care of dogs, laundry, picking up the counter, etc) (I did some things but never helped her with some of the things.)
- Scrutinized every penny she spent

I am sure the list is longer. That list is shameful. I am surprised I was able to get her to stay eventually. But I 180'd on it all. I got into C to cement these changes. I read voraciously about marriage saving, and self-improvement.

It is a year on and I have not engaged in any of these behavior since BD. IN fact, I have done just the opposite of those:

- No longer criticize her housekeeping, and express gratitude to her when she does things around the house
- I happily, and upbeatedly give her my full attention whenever she gets my attention
- I am patient with her and D. And I have been much more patient in general.
- I do not isolate myself. I spend a lot of time with W watching shows she likes. Conversing with her. Laughing and joking with her! (Do not underestimate that last part!! She has commented how much more fun I am to be with due to the laughing and cutting up.)
- I eat dinner with them by sitting at table, conversing, sharing how my day was, asking about theirs. being fully engaged with them. I eat slower. I sit and talk even after I am finished. I help clean up the table.
- I am sweet and nice to her. I adore her and realize she is the most important person in my life! I treat her like the queen I always should have. I love doing things for her and jump the minute she asks for a favor or help.
- I brag about her to others, both when she isn't around and when she is. I never say anything derogatory even jokingly to her or about her. I compliment her both publicly and privately.
- I never criticize her. I realize now that I am not always right and everyone (especially her) else is not always wrong if they do things differently. I realize that she is more important than getting to a place in the optimal path, or that we go through a tube of toothpaste in a week. She is my queen, and I treat her as such!
- I help with household duties. I clean up after meals, help take care of the dogs and cat, I try to do as much as she does, and do it happily and without grudge! (ANOTHER 180!!)
- I let her use her own judgement on spending. I no longer nitpick every penny she spends. I even limit my own spending so that she can spend more.

Marriage is about sacrifice! And once you realize how appreciated these things are it no longer feels likes sacrifice! I do these things now because I love her and I WANT to do them!


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Steve,

thank you for posting. I've read this through several times. I'm still not there on 180'ing my negative behaviors but I will not lose this battle.


H 34
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So quick update on my own sitch.

This morning I got up late (been sick and home from work the last two days, more on that in a minute). Normally I am up, showered, and back in bed for a few minutes of snuggling. But this morning I was still in the shower when she came into the bathroom. She said "Happy Valentine's Day!" What a difference a year makes. Last year she didn't even really acknowledge it!

Also, she was my caretaker the last two days! Another turnaround from last year.

Hang in there folks, it gets better. Whether your MR is saved or not, you will survive!


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Well man, I can only join for some seconds and you got me here tearing up reading your last post...

I miss you guys. IŽll be back soon I hope.

Keep it coming man!


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Been a couple of weeks since I gave an update.

Things continue to progress. Wife and I are closer than we've ever been. We watch a lot of Dr. Phil together. LOL Still lots of playful banter and affection. I am completely over my own waywardness from 2 years ago.

Quick funny exchange:

Me: "I have to tell you. I am so much happier now that I am not that bitter angry guy I used to be."

Her: "That makes a lot of sense if you think about it."

We both LOL'd.


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Sending hugs man

((((((S))))))


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Originally Posted by Steve85
Things continue to progress. Wife and I are closer than we've ever been.
Glad to hear. Crazy how things change over time.


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Steve, have you read any of Brene Brown's books? Daring Greatly is phenomenal about vulnerability. The others I like are The Gifts of Imperfection, Braving the Wilderness, and I Though it Was Just Me. I'm wanting to read Dare to Lead next.

We seem to have a lot of the same issues that lead to problems in the M. Daring Greatly really is a down to earth not touchy-feely or sciency. I learned a lot about myself and I think it helps with relationships.

Just my 2

You are doing great!


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thanks Miler. I'll look into those.

Last edited by Steve85; 02/27/19 01:29 AM.

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YO STEVO! smile

I'm happy for you. Keep strengthening your marital and family bonds!


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Hello Steve85, I'm new here. That list of behaviours you've changed up there, it describes my dh's former behaviour completely. Other than the praying, lol. It gives me hope for a better marriage that you changed your behaviours like that. Since our separation my dh has mostly changed those behaviours too, with the odd blip. It makes me wonder if part of the reason he wanted to separate was to be able to change them, he did say that he wants to be the best person he can be (he seems very emotional when he says that). Maybe I will tell him about the changes I see and that I appreciate them. Hmmm. Thank you. Now to look at my own negative behaviours and work out how to improve those...

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Originally Posted by dillydaf
Hello Steve85, I'm new here. That list of behaviours you've changed up there, it describes my dh's former behaviour completely. Other than the praying, lol. It gives me hope for a better marriage that you changed your behaviours like that. Since our separation my dh has mostly changed those behaviours too, with the odd blip. It makes me wonder if part of the reason he wanted to separate was to be able to change them, he did say that he wants to be the best person he can be (he seems very emotional when he says that). Maybe I will tell him about the changes I see and that I appreciate them. Hmmm. Thank you. Now to look at my own negative behaviours and work out how to improve those...


dillydaf, please be very careful here. As a LBS with these behaviors, my W was understandably very leery of believing my changes. Like most WASs she thought I was just doing it temporarily to win her back.

Make sure he is really instituting changes and not just trying to keep you as his Plan B. You mention the "odd blip". I like a Dr Phil quote in these circumstances. He talks about how being critical one time undoes 1000 attaboys. Make him earn his way back. Make sure he gets professional help for his poor behaviors. I learned in therapy why I was the way I was and learned that my way isn't always the only or even the right way. Make sure he does the work before you accept his changes and real and permanent.


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Originally Posted by Steve85
Originally Posted by dillydaf
Hello Steve85, I'm new here. That list of behaviours you've changed up there, it describes my dh's former behaviour completely. Other than the praying, lol. It gives me hope for a better marriage that you changed your behaviours like that. Since our separation my dh has mostly changed those behaviours too, with the odd blip. It makes me wonder if part of the reason he wanted to separate was to be able to change them, he did say that he wants to be the best person he can be (he seems very emotional when he says that). Maybe I will tell him about the changes I see and that I appreciate them. Hmmm. Thank you. Now to look at my own negative behaviours and work out how to improve those...


dillydaf, please be very careful here. As a LBS with these behaviors, my W was understandably very leery of believing my changes. Like most WASs she thought I was just doing it temporarily to win her back.

Make sure he is really instituting changes and not just trying to keep you as his Plan B. You mention the "odd blip". I like a Dr Phil quote in these circumstances. He talks about how being critical one time undoes 1000 attaboys. Make him earn his way back. Make sure he gets professional help for his poor behaviors. I learned in therapy why I was the way I was and learned that my way isn't always the only or even the right way. Make sure he does the work before you accept his changes and real and permanent.



Steve: I appreciate that advice very much. I'm much more aware now of my own part in that dynamic and having broken the cycle I'm hopeful that we can both learn new behaviours. If nothing else, I will learn my part and how to avoid it in future if things don't work out. Last time he was critical (because he was anxious) I first shut down and then cried. He actually said sorry and that he didn't mean to hurt me. That's big progress right there I feel. Maybe me crying wasn't the most assertive thing but it did show him how his behaviour affected me (and was more useful than my usual shut down mode). He hasn't been critical like that since actually. And he's been much better at not criticising the kids too. I can help him be less critical and he can learn to be less critical, I really don't think he'll see a therapist though. But who knows!
Thank you smile

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Due to a very busy schedule lately, and alternating illnesses, W and haven't had time for sex lately. It has been on my mind quite a bit. I know after our sitch last year that she definitely has needs that were not being met. And I want to meet those, obviously.

So the last few days she's been dropping hints left and right. Including just now on the phone.

Again, I post this to say to the LBS in the thick of their sitches....be patient. You never know what might happen. If you told me we'd be here today back on Feb. 1st 2018 I would have told you that you were smoking crack!


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You tha man Steve! Great work. Patience is so so hard.


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Just thought of something that happened in my sitch.

I've told the story before about BD, 12/23/2017. I did all the wrong things like most LBSs. However, since she also had an EA in 2005, I knew about DBing. I had read MWD's stuff, watched her videos, etc. So on 12/26/2017 I started to try to detach. Detachment is a long arduous journey. It is like shooting free-throws, you only get better by practicing.

Later that week she asked me to help her with a project for her business she was working on. She asked me to review her work and help her. My role in her business had always been as a hero. When she ran into a problem, legal, financial, customer support, etc.....I was there to rescue her from it. Here she fired my as her husband and 6 days later I was swooping in the rescue her again. 4 days after I committed to detaching.

If you are a LBS struggling with GAL, 180s, and detachment.......give yourself a break. You aren't going to be perfect. Stick to the plan, be patient, ignore the WAS's rants, tantrums, up and down emotions, etc......and stick to DBing. It will get you through.


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Thanks for that Steve. Always a good reminder.


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Hey Steve, I wanted to reach out and see how things were going you. I think I pushed through the "is this what I want stage" once I realized we were in R. I think that point came when I was comfortable with what she was saying to me since it has been a long time since I had heard the truth.

I still have all access to my Ws accounts, phone, watch etc, but don't feel the need to look. She has been home every day for the last 6 weeks, minus one or two trips to hang out with true old friends locally who I know and she stayed in contact and more importantly came home from. She reaches out several times daily to ask how my day is, tell me how her's is, what we want to do later, when I will be home, etc.

The last 6 weeks she has opened up more and more in helping me understand her waywardness which has been very helpful and has continued to be extremely remorseful about the damage her actions have caused to our R and our family. You know that she was pretty messed up for a while from her childhood abuse, our eldest having some issues, and eventually her finding OM who could provide drugs that she just recently said was a factor in her seeing him. These were all things that she is realizing and taking 100% of the blame for and understands why she was blaming me through the whole process to make her feel like what she was doing was ok.

Fast forward and we are doing much better but I know we both have some growing to do. She has put her ring back on and wants to buy me one to wear again.

I am doing my best to keep my positive 180s in place especially the physical piece because at my age that really is a driver to my happiness. Hope all is well and and thank you for all of your encouragement and great advice throughout the process. I hope to hear that things are going in the right direction for you and yours.


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Thanks lost8. Your sitch sounds like it is much improved. I just encourage you to cement your 180s. Make them the new you! (More on that in a minute.) And just keep working. I think you would agree that a lot of the problem is that we, the LBSs, got to comfortable and quit trying. One of the things I've learned through all of this that you should never stop courting your W. Never stop dating her. And never stop working to improve yourself and your MR.

One quick suggestion. I was not a fan of wearing a ring. I was always taking mine off the shower, to sleep, etc. It just never stop bugging me. I bought a pack of 5 silicon rings on Amazon. WHAT AN EYE_OPENER!!! I don't even realize I have this thing on! And they look good too. I often pull mine off hold up and then squish it to the shock of the person I am showing it too.

Okay, now to answer your question. We continue to do really well. We continue to work really well as a team, both in running of the house, and being parents. It feels so good to be free of all the tension, and all of the dread. Having put aside my NGS and being forthright and upfront with her is amazing. Just so freeing!

As far as my changes and 180s. I continue to work really hard to make sure they are cemented. I said more on being "a new you". Just last night we were joking about something that happened. I can't even remember what it was but she was saying "I was afraid you were going to yell at me." (jokingly). I laughed and said "That was the old Steve! The new Steve doesn't do that." I reflected on that later and realized that I am 16 months past being THAT guy. It feels so good. And to be quite blunt, it is refreshing! I didn't realize how much weight and baggage being that guy had me carrying around.

For instance, if you read my threads you'll see that I was a saver and fixer. I would always try to save her from her failures and fix her mistakes. And that did two things. It put an awful lot of responsibility and work on me. And it didn't let her be her, and I think that was a big part of her having felt "she lost herself". Further, it made her look at me as a dad instead of a H.

Now I realize how important it is to be a man. A husband. A lover. A provider. But that I let her have her space and let her have her learnings through success and failure herself. No woman wants to marry their father. And I am constantly checking myself not to jump in and be her dad. But to be her partner in life, that empathizes with her through the ups and downs. I am happy to say I am doing this very consistently! I can't think of the last time I said something or reacted in a way and felt like I had let myself down in this regard.

So l8, things are moving in the right direction. We are really in a good place. The last 9-10 months I can honestly say have been the best 9-10 months of our marriage. I think she would agree too.

To the other newcomers, remember. Your old MR is gone. You have to move on to a new MR, either with your WAS or with someone new.


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Steve, I made it most of the way through all 12(!) of these threads, and just wanted to say congrats on your long journey and how far you've come. One thing that struck me, more than just the good results, was how you got there. You certainly did well but you were not perfect. You made mistakes. You had doubts, sometimes about the DB process, and sometimes about whether it was even worth it to continue. Yet you persevered, didn't stop working on yourself, and did as well as you could. This is important because everyone who comes here is going to be imperfect, make mistakes, and have similar doubts. It's good to see that success is still possible, that we don't need to be perfect to become the man (or woman) that only a fool would leave.


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Originally Posted by makofia
Steve, I made it most of the way through all 12(!) of these threads, and just wanted to say congrats on your long journey and how far you've come. One thing that struck me, more than just the good results, was how you got there. You certainly did well but you were not perfect. You made mistakes. You had doubts, sometimes about the DB process, and sometimes about whether it was even worth it to continue. Yet you persevered, didn't stop working on yourself, and did as well as you could. This is important because everyone who comes here is going to be imperfect, make mistakes, and have similar doubts. It's good to see that success is still possible, that we don't need to be perfect to become the man (or woman) that only a fool would leave.


Extremely astute and well said makofia. DBing is a journey over hilly terrain. There will be ups. There will be downs. But you have to keep moving forward.

I often use the analogy of the stock market. The stock market has daily ups and downs. No one should make judgments based on just one day. What you are looking for is a general upward trend over time. That is DBing. You will have days you DB really well. Days you will DB not so well. But if you continue and make progress over time then your results will trend up.


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Hey everyone.

Just a small update on my own sitch. This struck me as I was responding to another LBS on this site. It is a thought I've had from time-to-time in the back of my head.

So early on in my sitch, my W was dead set on her plan to get a job, get an apartment and get a divorce. Through various things she slowly started to realize it wasn't going to be that simple. Her guilt over disrupting my D's and my lives was a big one. First was that her online D plan, when I child was involved, was bunk in our state. When I told her we'd be selling the house, I'd be moving in with a friend, and that we'd share custody 50/50, that went a long way towards her bubble popping. And the last straw was that I had consulted a lawyer. After that things moved from a resistant recovery, to her fully committing back to the marriage.

And while her actions continue to be consistent with that commitment, I have to admit that I've had thoughts over the last year that what if she just did this, with my D turning 15 last year, with the idea that when she turns 18 she'll follow through on her original plan to get a job, get her own place, and file for D? Any thoughts.

Obviously, if this were the case (and I don't think it is), the answer is to keep being self-differentiated. Keep working on my 180s. And keep being the man only a fool would leave!


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Hey Steve, Same thing here, was my Ws recommitment because of our S14 and him being dependent on us? When the kids are gone will she go down that road again?

Who knows, I have thought about it a number of times and the reason I am here is because I finally realized that I did not need my W to be happy. Am I happy now when I am with her? yes, but with my 180s for me during the SH**show I realized there is a life outside of this marriage. Will this haunt us for quite a while? I'm sure but this was the choice we made....I still question that as well sometimes but it gets better each day and building a better MR with my W.


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Thanks l8. True, she is going to do what she is going to do. And I will be fine no matter what she decides! In the meantime I will enjoy what I have.


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Steve,

You are a pretty astute guy who has done all kinds of reading and research. I am pretty sure you could tell whether she was faking it or not.

As far as guarantees. Just death and taxes my friend.

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Originally Posted by Steve85
I have to admit that I've had thoughts over the last year that what if she just did this, with my D turning 15 last year, with the idea that when she turns 18 she'll follow through on her original plan to get a job, get her own place, and file for D? Any thoughts.


Have you made it to "Together at last" or "Awakening to Joy" stage?

Are you filling her love bucket? Is she filling yours? Is she actively work in the R?

Have you done retrouvaille?


"What is best for my kids is best for me"
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Originally Posted by LH19
Steve,

You are a pretty astute guy who has done all kinds of reading and research. I am pretty sure you could tell whether she was faking it or not.

As far as guarantees. Just death and taxes my friend.



Thanks. This is all in my head. No question about it. She is really reinvested in this marriage and working on it. Where she is today and where she was on 12/23/2017 is a complete 180.

But yes I get there are no guarantees.


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Originally Posted by Ready2Change
Originally Posted by Steve85
I have to admit that I've had thoughts over the last year that what if she just did this, with my D turning 15 last year, with the idea that when she turns 18 she'll follow through on her original plan to get a job, get her own place, and file for D? Any thoughts.


Have you made it to "Together at last" or "Awakening to Joy" stage?

Are you filling her love bucket? Is she filling yours? Is she actively work in the R?

Have you done retrouvaille?




Thanks R2C. WE continue to work.I continue to improve myself. She is working on some things as well. The love buckets are pretty full!

Retrouvaille is definitely on the to-do list.


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Just hit our 20th anniversary!

Didn't think we'd make it to 20 after what happened last year. Stay the course. Keep DBing.


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Congrats brother & W & D15!

The DB lighthouse! Thank you!

My best wishes for you and your family Steve.


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Death and taxes... Lol.. Yup that sounds about right, and the second one is still optional. Congrats Steve I hope you make it to your 50th.

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Congratulations, Steve! It's heartening that good things happen too. Your story's inspiring. Hope you don't mind me coming for advice sometime.

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Happy 20th Steve!!!


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Congrats, Steve!


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with all the great advice you have handed us steve its hard to think that you were once in our shoes.
Keep DBing and piecing.


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Thanks everyone, appreciate it.


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So this came up in Wolfman's thread. I mentioned that I sent my W's 2005 EAP a very weak email. For reference, this guy was IMing my W in very sexual terms. He was pressuring her to meet with him to take their EA to a PA. And was pressuring her to send nude photos.

After I discovered it, confronted her, she said she wanted to save the marriage. But then the withdrawals started. She was sad and depressed, and then after a few weeks caved and contacted him. I was still monitoring her activities on our home computer at the time, and this was the email I sent to him.

Quote
OM,

I know you don't know me and you are probably
extremely awkward hearing from me. However, I felt
compelled to contact you related to the situation that
has been occurring between my wife and yourself. I hope
you understand that this is not an indictment on you
in any sense. I think you will see the reason I am
emailing you as you read this, if you read this.

First of all, I love my wife and our daughter more than
anything else in this world. They are second in my
life only to God, and there is nothing I wouldn't do
for them, and to protect them. They mean the world to
me. However, as my wife has probably told you already, I
haven't always made my wife feel how important she is to
me. I have, through my actions, made her feel
unimportant and insignificant. I have made her feel
like I would rather not be married. Though the reality
is that I love her immensely, think the world of her,
and that she is the most important thing on the face
of the earth to me, it doesn't matter because her
perception through my bad behavior made her think
otherwise.

My wife was always the most stable thing in my life. She
is an unbelievably devoted mother, a strong Christian
woman, and strives to do the right thing in just about
every aspect of her life. She has strong morals and
strong convictions, and stands by them. She is also
the only person I have ever known that lives by the
Biblical teaching of ”do unto others as you would have
them do unto you". She was my foundation and rock.
When everything else around me was crashing down she
was the one constant, unmovable force in my life.

It was because of that the very foundation of my
existence was shaken when I discovered the chats you
and her had been conducting. I started to get
suspicious when she'd switch windows when I came into
the office. And then I saw your name in her address
book in her email and became even more suspicious. I
then began to track when you both were logged in. My
suspicions, as you know, led me to install spy
software to track what was going on. I just wanted her
back and her heart seemed so very far away from me.

I began instituting changes in my life to make her
life better, easier and happier. I was achieving the
first two, but her happiness was alluding me. I could
tell there was something else going on. I'm sure she
has probably relayed much of this to you already.

Anyway, in the 3 weeks since I read those IMs, I
thought we were healing. I knew she was sad because
she missed you. I don't understand it since she only
chatted with you for 5 weeks, but I guess it isn't for
me to understand. She feels the way she does. For the
first two weeks she was good about not contacting you,
at least that is what she tells me. However, I did add
some spy software capabilities to alleviate my fears.
I saw her send an email to her online friends from a
planning mother’s website, and she spilled her guts.
She said things like she still had feelings for you,
that she still was no longer attracted to me but had a
strong sexual attraction to you. She said she would
love to have kissed you just once, to kiss someone she
was really hot for again. She even told them that she
would rather go to a football game this Saturday with
you instead of me. We've had that planned for a couple
of weeks.

Then I saw the emails she sent to you yesterday. She
told me about them but she left out details. She
didn't tell me about the follow-up email after you
resent the picture of you and the duck (nice wood duck
by the way, hunter-to-hunter). However I saw her tell
you how she melted at you telling her that you laying
in a hammock included her (she told her friends that
part too). I saw her tell you how she wanted to share
so much with you even though she knew there was no
possibility of it ever happening. I even saw her tell
you that if you were more comfortable doing so that
she'd talk to about things with you on the phone.

She has no idea I saw all of this. I only let her in
on the fact that I saw her response to you resending
your picture. But as you can see you have taken
something very precious from me, my wife's heart. The
problem I find myself in is that I deserve everything
I am getting because I didn't make her feel loved,
honored, cherished and appreciated. She even told me
early on that if things had been good between her and
I then she would never have started chatting with you.
So you see it is my fault. I place no fault at her
feet, or your feet.

Though you took some things away from me (security in
my marriage, my wife's heart, my pride), you have
given me much much more. You have showed me that I
need to work at my marriage in order to maintain it.
That I need to treat my wife with respect, dignity and
honor. That it isn't enough to know I love her, I have
to make sure she knows, in no uncertain terms, that
she is loved deeply by me. You were right on the money
when you wrote: "A man isn't judged by his physical
features, job title, or how much he earns, but how he
treats people he cares about and the things he does
when nobody is watching."

So you see, in a weird, strange way, you have given me
hope for the future of my marriage. You have given me
the eye-opening I needed to make profound changes in
my half of the relationship. You may end up, in a very
strange way, being the best thing that ever happened
to my wife and me. At first I despised you. She told you
my threat to mail the IMs to your wife. I was angry
and hurt, and I wanted to spread that anger and hurt
to as many others as I could. I am not like that
though and I told her later that I would never do that
because your wife and your daughters do not deserve to
be dragged into the middle of this.

I told my wife last night that I was disabling the spy
software, and I did that last night. I realized that
regardless of what measures I took she'd just find a
way around them, or at least try. If I locked down all
of the PCs in the house, she'd go to the phone. If I
tapped the phones, she'd meet you in person. If I
continued to escalate measures to cut her off she'd
escalate measures to reconnect. So I gave up. I told
her she was free to do whatever she felt she
wanted/needed to do. She assured me that she is
committed to our marriage and would never cross
certain boundaries. I hope that is true, that if you
two continue to chat, exchange emails, etc, that there
are certain boundaries that would never be crossed.

So the basic thrust of this email is really to let you
know that I have disabled the spy software. I think
my wife is leery but I can't help how she feels. In many
ways spying on her was a bigger violation than some of
the things the two of you discussed. Speaking of some
of those things, for the future I do ask you to do one
thing for me (though I have no right to ask either you
or my wife for anything): Put yourself in my shoes, and
put your wife in my wife's shoes, and think about how you
would feel if I said to your wife some the things you
said to my wife, or if your wife said some of the things
my wife said to you. I think you'd be ready to "leave me
where you find me", to quote you.

It is interesting because in one of the IMs my wife
described what she knew of you and it was a
carbon-copy of me. I think we both have warrior
spirits and are ready to fight for what we want. We
also have common interests and I think if we had
gotten to know each other under different
circumstances, you and I would have hit it off. I told
my wife that right after all this happened, that I
thought you and I would have gotten along really well
in real life.

So I guess this email is really, in a way, a thank
you. Thank you for making me take notice that my wife
was unhappy, looking for something, and I was endanger
of losing her. I have lost her heart and hope to win
that back. Right now it belongs to you. She claims
that you don't want it and I pray that is true. My
wife is extremely attractive, sexy, and fun to be
with. I wouldn't blame you at all if you were to have
feelings for her like she seems to have for you. I
wouldn't blame you at all for wanting to pursue those
feelings. I'd hate it. It'd kill me. But in the end I
don't care about my happiness, I care about my wife's.
my wife's happiness is paramount to mine; I don't deserve
happiness for the way I have made her feel all of
these years.

If you have read this far, thanks. I'm sure you didn't
think you would hear from me, or want to. my wife has no
idea that I am sending you this email. If she knew
she'd probably think I was telling you to let her go
so she and I can heal. Like I said, I have no right to
ask either one of you for anything. I leave it up to
you whether or not you share this email with her. It
is your prerogative. If you do decide to tell her
about this email please convey to her, even though
I've done it countless times in the last month and
half, how much I care about her, how much I love her,
and how much she means to me.

As for you, I have no idea how your marriage stands.
Maybe these chats with my wife were just an outlet for
you and you really meant it when you said: "I never
intended on ever meeting you or acting out any of the
silly things we talked about." I hope that is true.
The IMs I saw scared me on many levels, but the two
that scared me most were the talk of the two of you
meeting for lunch, and her telling you that she was
sexually attracted to you and not to me. However, I
have made my bed, I have to sleep in it. I only hope
and pray that she will allow me to remake that bed. I
do urge you to look at yourself and ask yourself if
you can make your marriage better and stronger.
Relationships are improved only when one of the two
involved resolve to be a better spouse. I know it is
cliché and simplistic, but it is true; if you want a
better spouse then be a better spouse. I will keep you
and your wife in my daily prayers, just like I pray
for my wife and me.

Good luck in all you do.

Steve85


As you can see this is a weak move by a weak man. This is not being a man only a fool would leave. I post it hear as a cautionary tale. DO NOT BE THIS GUY. If I was the guy receiving this I would probably laugh my butt off.

Guys, be an alpha male. This is the move of a beta male. No wonder we ended up in the same situation just 12 years later.

Be better than this.


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Steve85 I read all this, and it sounds like a pleading, bleeding heart to another man who's cheating with you're W who probably looked at it in 2005 and probably laughed at it.

It made me think about the emails i sent my W early on in my sich. Starting to realize what a bleeding heart I am, how actions should speak louder than words, how less is more, doing your own thing and GAL, turning the focus on yourself, rather than your partner, and how self respect is everything. Knowing that you will be ok no matter what. That's confidence. I guess I float between being alpha/beta being either cocky, or self doubting at times, coming off as passive aggressive rather than assertive sometimes as well. . But then again, I'm sure we have all been at that moment of weakness.

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Originally Posted by IHCLACS
Steve85 I read all this, and it sounds like a pleading, bleeding heart to another man who's cheating with you're W who probably looked at it in 2005 and probably laughed at it.

It made me think about the emails i sent my W early on in my sich. Starting to realize what a bleeding heart I am, how actions should speak louder than words, how less is more, doing your own thing and GAL, turning the focus on yourself, rather than your partner, and how self respect is everything. Knowing that you will be ok no matter what. That's confidence. I guess I float between being alpha/beta being either cocky, or self doubting at times, coming off as passive aggressive rather than assertive sometimes as well. . But then again, I'm sure we have all been at that moment of weakness.


Exactly. And I did what I said I was going to do in this email. I uninstalled the spyware, told her she was free to do whatever she wanted.

And then a weird thing happened. A peace came over me. It is hard to explain but when you really drop the rope it is freeing. I felt like the weight of the world was lifted off of my shoulders. If LBSs could really let go I think they would be shocked at how liberated they feel!

The other thing that happened is that they didn't stay in contact. As if my knowing and my not caring anymore took the fire out of it. I have read of that happening sometimes. When the LBS acknowledges what they know, says I don't care because you are going to do what you want to do, and then truly moves on, usually the romanticism of the A dissipates. BUT you have to REALLY let go. Now just pretend to get the desired result.


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Steve reading the email you sent the OM, I agree in retrospect it was a weak move.

I just wanted to add that while reading it, I sensed a classy individual on the other end making reasonable points. If I was the other man I think I would have been more taken back by this ( my Christian morals perhaps) then someone saying he would kick my face in for cheating with his wife. I think the second approach would have me laughing.
The one you sent had depth and humanity.
Lacking in our people lately. Its nice to see glimpses of humanity here and there. For me its what gives me hope.
Even if it was wrong sending it, it added food for thought.


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Originally Posted by gzabetas
Steve reading the email you sent the OM, I agree in retrospect it was a weak move.

I just wanted to add that while reading it, I sensed a classy individual on the other end making reasonable points. If I was the other man I think I would have been more taken back by this ( my Christian morals perhaps) then someone saying he would kick my face in for cheating with his wife. I think the second approach would have me laughing.
The one you sent had depth and humanity.
Lacking in our people lately. Its nice to see glimpses of humanity here and there. For me its what gives me hope.
Even if it was wrong sending it, it added food for thought.


Thanks g, because part of me wanted to find him and take a baseball bat to his kneecaps! LOL


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haha i know that feeling. i know it all too well LOL


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Originally Posted by Steve85
And then a weird thing happened. A peace came over me. It is hard to explain but when you really drop the rope it is freeing. I felt like the weight of the world was lifted off of my shoulders. If LBSs could really let go I think they would be shocked at how liberated they feel!.


Weird, similar thing happen with me recently. After the latest BD, all of a sudden I just completely dropped the rope and instantly felt at peace. There is still the sadness for the kids, and stress of logistics and tweezing our lives apart, but somewhere deep inside my mind recognized that I was expending way too much energy on something I can't change. I've been working on myself hard since the previous BD 1.5 years ago, rebuilding my career and a positive outlook, and it worked. The story is far from over, but my decision-making is not crippled with anxiety anymore. Feels great! I know I'm going to be ok too.

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Some old feelings have started to surface on my part. I got home the other day and the sink was full of dishes, and it appeared nothing had been done around the house. She's been much better about this since our sitch. But recently its been a reverting a bit. Note, she has been taking care of the pets almost exclusively because of my work schedule recently, so it isn't like she is doing nothing.

This is more all on my end. In short, there have been internal feelings of reverting on my 180s. However, I've been digging and fighting this urge. I've been telling myself that I need to deal with my feelings internally, and not pull her back into my garbage. There has been no other problems, we've been getting along well, co-parenting our daughter really well, and just still are very much aligned in our direction as a couple.

On the D15 front, things have been a lot better. She's been less defiant and disrespectful. We had a counseling session a while back and seemed to have a breakthrough. Against her wishes she actually broke down and cried. I came out realizing that I've been parenting her as a child, not as a young adult. And while at 15 she still isn't an "adult" she is finding her legs for adulthood, and I need to embrace and support that instead of trying to keep her "my little girl".

It also has helped that her best friend LOVES my wife and I. LOL My D is looking at us going "if XXXXX likes them then they can't be all bad."

Anyway, just wanted to give a quick update on me. I have been dealing with these feelings well, and remembering to take my time, control my reactions, and remember what is most important.


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Are you and W going on weekly dates?


Read this post:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forum...ain=48048&Number=2097239#Post2097239


"What is best for my kids is best for me"
Amor Fati
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Yes, we still do the weekly dates. There have been a few weeks that we couldn't make it work, but we've been pretty consistent.

Thanks for the post. Good stuff. Like I said, this is mostly just me and my OCD and anxiety issues that I am projecting on her. I need to continue to check myself. I am bad about thinking my way is right and any way that deviates from my say is wrong. Been the source of many problems in our marriage in the past.


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Originally Posted by Steve85
Yes, we still do the weekly dates. There have been a few weeks that we couldn't make it work, but we've been pretty consistent.
I figured so, but I didn't want to make assumptions.


"What is best for my kids is best for me"
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Found this while searching for another post. And wanted to repost it as a cautionary tale. Unfortunately, this story is completely true:

Originally Posted by Steve85
The earlier discussion in this thread about "success" (I know Nicole you were wanting success in R) related to our sitchs really got me thinking.

The movie "War of the Roses" came to mind. Success if D or R is if everyone comes out of it unharmed and healthy. While "War of the Roses" is an extreme fictional tale, it is cautionary in that those that do not take care of themselves can let things devolve to a level where things can escalate and people can get hurt.

Let me tell you the true story of Larry and Liza (names changed to protect the innocent. And the guilty).

These were dear friends of my W's and mine. We loved them and were named the guardians of their kids in case of untimely death to both of them. Liza and my W shared a special bond and considered each other the sister they never had. Larry was one of the sweetest men you'd ever meet, with an unbelievable tenor voice. He is the best singer I've ever personally known. He sang in a couple of quartet gospel groups.

Liza was raised in the same church as me. My wife converted when we were dating, and Liza was kind of hesitant because of her upbringing. She now belonged to Larry's denomination, but they were rarely there because Larry was always traveling with the gospel quartet.

We got together with these friends as often as we could. We watched their family grow, they watched ours grow. They were amazing friends, and we reciprocated. Though we lived an hour a way we both made special efforts to get together at least once a month, sometimes more.

Eventually Liza started to grow weary of the teachings of the denomination and her and Larry began studying with our minister. We'd watch the kids for them while they studied. Eventually Larry was converted and Liza and he began attending a congregation in their area. Larry gave up the gospel quartet singing as it increasingly took him away from worshipping on Sundays with his family.

Eventually Larry got involved with several guys from church (a preacher, elder and deacon!) to form a covers rock band. Larry's voice was incredibly similar to Steve Perry's from Journey, and their Journey covers were so unbelievable.

About the summer of 2005 things started to change. They weren't in contact with us as often. They were making plans with us as often. At the time we didn't think much about it as people get busy and time can go by.

At new years 2005 we were invited to their house with friends from church for a new years party. Liza seemed to be a bit distant to my wife and I. It was subtle so I kind of blew it off at the time. Chalking it up to the mix of people that were at the party. A couple days later I sent her, with my wife CC'd, an email saying how much we enjoyed the party and getting together with Christian friends where we didn't have to worry about the kind of activities that would go on at the party.

We never received a response. Which was strange. Again we didn't think much about it.

Larry's cover band were asked to be an opening act for a local Kansas concert and Larry wanted my W and I there! He called me that summer to set it up and get us tickets. (My W had to work the day of the concert so I attended alone.) It was kind of odd that Liza didn't handle this as she was usually the one to do so. (This was the summer of 2006).

I went and Larry rocked it. One thing you have to know about Larry was that he was a lifelong Type 1 Diabetic. Having grown up in a religious family his lifestyle had fallen away from that in his younger years, and his partying caused his diabetes to eventually cause him to go legally blind. Though he could see he couldn't see well enough to work (disabled) or drive. He was in a boot from an ankle break (just stepping down off a ladder broke his ankle) during the concert, but it was one of his really good days and his voice was incredible.

He mentioned at the concert that the band was going to play at one of the member's house on Labor Day, and he wanted us to come. I told him to call me with the details.

In August Larry called me to give me the details of the Labor Day party the band was playing at. I asked him how things were going. He said: "Things are going great with the band. Not so much with Liza and I." This was shocking news. He told me she had said she didn't want to be married anymore and that she wanted him to get an apartment near her and the kids.

I was devastated as I hung up the phone and told my W about it. She was perplexed. The next day she called Larry and told him that there had to be someone else, that this just wasn't Liza. Not someone must have been influencing her. Liza was such a strong Christian that she didn't even want her kids watching Chitty Chitty Bang Bang at our house because she was afraid it glamorized witchcraft! (I didn't agree with her on that but it was her kids.)

Larry began to investigate. He found emails between her and a male coworker. There were hints at "business" trips she had told Larry she was going on but they were trips with this coworker, non-work related. Larry was devastated when he called to tell me his findings.

He and his brother hired a PI, and that is when the evidence began to mount. She was rendezvousing with this guy often, mostly during work hours. By time Labor Day rolled around Larry was ready to confront her. He was being advised not to, to let the noose tighten more around her neck. He talked to my W and I for a longtime at the Labor Day party, which Liza wasn't even present at. A woman that 2 years prior wouldn't have missed a chance to hang out with us, and she wasn't even at her husband's concert.

That night Larry confronted her. She admitted everything with this new guy, that they were in love and were going to leave their spouses to be together. Larry's marriage effectively ended that night.

The stress of everything took a big toll on Larry. By time Labor Day rolled around his kidneys were starting to fail. By the end of 2006 he was on weekly dialysis. His ankle never would heal properly. And he was starting to have other effects from his diabetes.

As Liza moved forward with the D, her and the new guy bought a house and moved in together. She did end up getting fired as the company the worked for put 2 and 2 together related to the two of them missing so much work, and then getting married. By summer of 2007 the D was final, Larry was in his own apartment and Liza and the kids were with the new guy in their house.

Larry started a friendship with a woman at church and Liza was not pleased. Suddenly she had a "I don't want him but I don't want him to be with anyone else attitude". She began making Larry's life miserable related to the kids. Larry loved his kids, but remember, he couldn't drive. She refused to bring them over so he would have to go visit at her house, but he had to find a ride to do it. Luckily his friends from church were very good to him and though he had to bow to other people's schedule he would get to see his kids regularly.

Liza however continued to make things difficult. One of the kids was having a concert at school. Larry got a ride to it, but the stress of dealing with Liza got to him that night and he ended up collapsing at the concert and getting rushed to the hospital where he went in to ICU in a coma.

His female church friend was there as much as she could in the few days he was in ICU. Including the night Liza showed up. Liza ended up beating this poor women to a bloody pulp. When the hospital staff found her, they put the hospital on lockdown and security began looking for Liza. They never found her, she must have already left.

Larry never came out of the coma. (Typing that causes tears to well up in my eyes.) I honestly believe the stress of Liza's affair, leaving him, the D and her behavior afterward are what killed Larry. We miss Larry very much to this very day. Just this morning I was singing a song his quartet used to sing and my W asked me to stop, it made her too sad.

Liza and my wife do not talk. After Larry's death my W wrote her a long letter confronting her on several things she did. The theme of the letter was "this isn't you Liza! This isn't the Liza I knew and loved." She never got a response. That year at Christmas the Christmas card we sent her came back "Return to Sender". We haven't spoken to Liza since New Years 2006.

The point of this long diatribe is that this stuff has a real capacity to end lives. War of the Roses highlighted that in a comical, satirical way. But you don't have to look to far to see where this stuff can have serious health effects, and can cause one with compromised health to die. Larry lived about a year after his discovery of Liza infidelity. And while the A didn't kill him, Liza's spitefulness (probably rooted in her own guilt), I believe, did.

So success to me in this stuff is seeing everyone come out the other side, no matter the outcome, healthy. Both mentally and physically.


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Glad everything is still going good for you, Steve. You're a real inspiration and a true asset to this board...


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I know I'm new and still stupid, but thank you Steve for everything you do. I'm glad to see that things turned out on the good side for you.


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Thanks guys. mtb I refer to you and the rock you were in your sitch all the time to newcomers. You are to be commended for how you took care of your kids!

Oops, you're not stupid! We talk struggle at the start. You'll get there.


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Steve, it's nice to see you're still doing well. Any update?


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Jim, thanks for asking. Thing continue to be doing well. W and I continue to be connected. Weekly dates (occasionally missing weeks but pretty consistent.) We are very affectionate. So it is going well, and this is the best our MR has ever been. Including right after our wedding.

The best update is that things are going much much better with my D!! Her and I have been doing more things together. Her friends like me so I think that helps, but she has been much less angry and bitter towards me. I am afraid it will go away as quickly as it got better so I am trying to tread lightly.


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I remember when my D was 12-15. It was hard, but it will get better for you soon, if it hasn't started to already!


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So it has been a while since I gave a proper update. And something happened that made me realize I needed to share.

First, the piecing and Ring continues to go well. I continue to refer to it as "in progress" so that I don't let down my guard and start to regress like I did after BD 2005 and Ring after that. And in that vein:

One of the things that started to happen was my weight began to go up. W and I were enjoying each other's company so much and eating out together, we both started to put on some weight. When my pants started to get tight I knew I needed to do something. I haven't gone up in pants size since my late 20s, so I refuse to buy bigger pants.I will either get cut in half by my waistband, or lose weight.

So I started a keto diet. Keto always works well for me, and so I immediately embarked on eating very low carbs. One of the side-effects of a keto diet is in the first few days of ketosis, you get keto-flu. They are flu like symptoms of headache, body aches and fatigue. So I was fighting that. And my nerves were starting to get a little rawer than I normally allow them to get.

I got home from work one day and the dishwasher was still full of clean dishes, sink was full of dirty dishes. And I needed to start to prepare myself a keto-friendly meal. Not to mention I was mentally worn out from work. So I started to feel the same old anxiety, frustrated, angry feelings coming.

So I took a deep breath, told myself that if I wanted the kitchen sink cleaned up before I started cooking (something that I have always preferred) then I needed to realize it was on me and do it myself. I was very proud that I had consciously caught myself before reacting (Old Steve). She heard what I was doing and said "What are you doing? Don't put dishes away I am going to do that!" I said very cheerily, "No, its okay. I can help out around here once in a while." It was so much better than 2 year ago when I would have been critical and passive-aggressive.

So my transformation continues. Self-awareness is a huge key to this stuff. Knowing what you need to do do control yourself, and control you reactions.

It also shows me that 180s are ongoing. Do not let your guard down. Continue to work on and improve yourself. Your personal relatinships will be much better off for it.


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Quick update, and opinions. Hopefully Sandi will respond and chime in. But you know I value all of your opinions.

The other night, my W and I were intimate. (This aspect of our marriage has been so much better since we started Ring.) If you remember, one of my W's requests as we started Ring was not to open mouth kiss with tongue (sorry if too graphic), especially during sex. At first I was taken aback by that. But as we worked with our MC, and as I got more information through independent research (including talking to two women I know who are the same way with their husbands), this is not all that unusual.

So back to the other night. As we were cuddling afterward, I was kissing her neck, and cheek, and I went to give her a peck on the lips. She opened her mouth briefly and her tongue probed (again, sorry if too graphic) briefly. I quickly went back to the kissing of her cheek and neck again.

So looking for opinions on this. I am intrigued by this and wondering if I should be attaching any significance to it. If there are any action I should take? I noticed she has been lingering longer when we kiss good night too before going to sleep. Should I take an opportunity one night to initiate a more passionate kiss?


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Remember Steve an alpha male goes for what he wants with no regrets.

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Steve85. Although I am no expert. Me personally? I like to tease. If they don't want it bad enough, I make them want it. That is something I know I'm confident and good at despite my current sich where W is repulsed by me and doesn't even accept hugs anymore, more or less have a conversation...(Part of it now is due to me setting up walls and boundaries due to W's actions.) I've come to realize that when the kisses are less intimate or non existent, then it typically reflects their current feelings. It could be different chemistry patterns too. It sounds like you are push/pulling and teasing just fine. Make her desire you again. Push a little intensity, but short, and see how she reacts and if she reciorocates the intensity. Then pull away.. See if she responds. Ever watch The Notebook? Don Juan Demarco? Try all flavors... Short Intense slow long whatever, but lead it and see if she follows? Experiment and see what works?

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Originally Posted by Steve85
But as we worked with our MC, and as I got more information through independent research (including talking to two women I know who are the same way with their husbands), this is not all that unusual.


During my post-D dating it seemed the women were on one side or the other. Either they were passionate, keep kissers or it wasn't their thing.

Quote
I am intrigued by this and wondering if I should be attaching any significance to it.


My GF is kind of hit or miss on kissing. Sometimes she's into it and other times she's not. Early on I asked her about it but she couldn't explain the reasons. So I just kind of play it by ear, I go for it and if she isn't reciprocating I'll limit the liplock time smile As things heat up she's usually more into it though. So I'll keep testing the waters as things amp up. That probably sounds more "clinical" than it is in practice.

Quote
If there are any action I should take? I noticed she has been lingering longer when we kiss good night too before going to sleep. Should I take an opportunity one night to initiate a more passionate kiss?


Sure, why not. See how receptive she is. If she's not receptive today it doesn't mean she won't be tomorrow. It sounds like you know how to read her so push it at times when she seems more receptive.


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Did she tell you why she doesn't want to kiss like that? If not, maybe ask her. It could be as simple as she has never liked french kissing. I have known women who don't like that. Or, you might get a different answer, but at least you know.


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Originally Posted by Destroyd
Did she tell you why she doesn't want to kiss like that? If not, maybe ask her. It could be as simple as she has never liked french kissing. I have known women who don't like that. Or, you might get a different answer, but at least you know.


I think most of it was related to her feelings for me at the time. Remember, this was over a year ago, when she was just coming back to the MR. Kissing is more intimate to most women than sex, and I don't think she was there yet.

I think in the next couple of nights I will go in for more of a passionate kiss and gauge the reaction.


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S - Robert Glover said in one of his podcasts that in the bedroom it's man's responsibility to lead and explore. It's the woman's job to say "no".

Take that for whatever it's worth.


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Man, go for it. Couple dynamics is that, dynamic. ThereŽs some evolution from the past times.

IŽm happy for that improvement Steve. As J9 says, take it as it comes.

(((Steve)))


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Originally Posted by Steve85
She opened her mouth briefly and her tongue probed (again, sorry if too graphic) briefly...So looking for opinions on this. I am intrigued by this and wondering if I should be attaching any significance to it.
I believe it is a positive sign.

Quote
If there are any action I should take? I noticed she has been lingering longer when we kiss good night too before going to sleep. Should I take an opportunity one night to initiate a more passionate kiss?
Timing is key. Her level of arousal is key. For now, I would "mirror" her kiss.

As the man, I am in change of the sex and romance department with my lady. I enjoy building up the sexual tension for later release. "Men are microwaves, Women are crock pots." First thing I do when I see my lady is eye contact and smile then a quick peck on the lips. Walk away and keep busy. Walk past and anther peck. Sometimes skip the peck and a light touch as I walk past. Sometime I intentionally walk past without any contact. When she is looking more relaxed, I will walk up behind her and massage her neck and shoulders. Short and long hugs may happen. I kiss her lighting on her forehead or eyebrows. Someplace during this, she initiates the more passionate kiss. By this time I have already brushed my teeth, mouthwash etc. I keep making and breaking contact though out the evening. If she needs to vent about work, or the children, I stop and listen, then back busy. During all of this, I may say "make out with me later?" or "Fall asleep in my arms tonight?"...she responds "of course" ...We have been doing this for 10 years...Also, I never talk about our intimate interaction immediately. Maybe a day later, I open up some dialog on what she liked, what she may be open to in the future. I might say "I enjoyed our kiss last night"






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Originally Posted by Steve85


So back to the other night. As we were cuddling afterward, I was kissing her neck, and cheek, and I went to give her a peck on the lips. She opened her mouth briefly and her tongue probed (again, sorry if too graphic) briefly.


I think this is an encouraging sign. Looks like she is getting more comfortable with being intimate with you. In the movie Pretty Woman, Julia Roberts character would never kiss on the lips because kissing was more intimate than having sex.

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Steve, this is great.

I agree with statements above - you're the alpha.

Either you can openly bring it up during a weekend breakfast with her and see how that morning turns out when she tells you she is ready for more... I mean the alpha male will communicate what he wants with his wife, right?

OR

You save it for the BR and give her some power in the bedroom to lead and you be ready to reciprocate back.

Take cues and consider the timing. This is really great. IMO she gave you the green light and you can show her your MOJO or SWAG however you want. This is really up to you on how you want to lead.


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Thanks everyone. Still mulling all the advice and possibilities!

Everything else is going very well. Wife and I are doing very well, I feel like partners in everything: finances, parenting, work around the house, etc.

Amazing how much better life is when you are self-differentiated, putting love first, and maintaining constructive, positive behaviors!

I only have to fight the old guy back once every couple to 3 months, and the interval between is getting longer. Life is so much easier this way!


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So an update on me:

My old man started to rear its ugly head. Some old feelings started to come back up. Things about not having things done around the house, etc. There are a lot of external pressures still on us. In-laws in for summer. Lots of graduations parties, events, milestone birthday parties. Other house still not sold. New house needing a few things (mostly minor like garage door cable breaking, etc).

So I had to fall back on techniques learned in IC....reminding myself about whats really important. Not undoing months of hard work by reverting. Etc. I was pretty proud of myself to NOT externalize it except to do what needs to be done. Another therapy technique! "If you feel it is so important...then do. Without murmuring nor complaining."

As I said, he have a lot going on. I just called her earlier this morning and talked to her for a little over a half an hour. As she was sharing things, and telling me things, I realize how far we have progressed from a year and a half ago. No way would that phone call have gone that way a year and a half ago. it would have been me talking, her barely interjecting and anxious to get off of the phone.

On the D16 front, that is still up an down. Big difference is that instead of it being all positive with her, and negative with me it is now 50/50 with both of us. Things are still better between her and I than a year ago, but she is continuing to try to find her individualism, though it scares me that she seems so impressionable to her friends' influence. She has some good friends but I do not know them all that well. So they could be Eddie Haskelling me.

So that is where things stand. As soon as the other house is sold, we will be doing some more counseling, but I think we are in a decent place until then.


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Well, guess whoŽs back from his winter holidays?

Yep.

Relax, enjoy the reality my friend. Teens are teens. ThereŽs their natural rebelion state. Enjoy all of that. ItŽs hard but you were there not a long time ago.

DonŽt wait for the rain. But, if it comes, enjoy it.

(((S)))


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Thanks neffer. Always good to hear your wise words.

We had an extremely busy weekend. From the time I got home from work Friday, until yesterday around 5:30pm, we were on the go, busy, and just had no time to relax. I was exhausted last night. Went to bed early.

I was out for about 20 minutes when W came busting into the bedroom: "THERE'S A BAT IN THE HOUSE!"

I jumped out of bed, threw on some clothes, and leaped into action. Had the bat out of the house in about 10 minutes.

Why is this important? Because the old Steve85 would have been angry about being awakened, would have taken out his frustration on the situation on his W. And even when W and D were videotaping instead of helping, and laughing at me chasing the bat around with a towel trying to shoo it out the front door (luckily the new house has 8 foot high double doors!), I never reverted to old Steve anger. We laughed about it later. It feels good to be happy, and fulfilled, rather than angry, bitter, and resentful.

Onward and upward....indeed!


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Good job Steve! I too see myself stopping for a second before I react and realizing what is important and in the end saying it really wasn't that big a deal and glad the new me responded.


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I wanted to post this story from early on in my sitch because I see a lot of new posters struggling with things like:

"She is being nice to me."
"She is telling me about her day."
"She asks me to do the things she always has before."

The temptation is, after BD is to latch on to anything that makes us think she changed her mind.

To my story.

I got BD on 12/23/2017 (actually initiated by me). You can read my sitch to see that it was the typical WAW/WW BD speech. As AnotherStander pointed out to another poster last week, my W was typical in her sript. ILYBNILWY, I want to move out and get a D. Etc.

This was during the holidays. I had until the 2nd of January off. That week I went back to work she called me one day. She was a photographer and had a client that was really picky. She had just done a lot of post-production processing on a set of photos and wanted me to look them over to make sure they were up to her usual quality. I knocked it out of the park. I looked at each photo, gave her detailed feedback on the photos. I remembered the scene in War Of The Roses where he didn't really take the time to look over her Catering Contract, and even used the copy she gave him to review to smash a fly. That seemed to make her feel unimportant to him, so I made sure to make her feel like a priority.

The fact she asked me and I knocked it out of the park and she was appreciative (I handled a lot of her business dealings for her business) made me think we had turned a corner!

Guess what, it did not! She was clear she still wanted a D, wanted to move out, etc. She was still engaging with OM (in fact sent nude pictures to him the night that I delivered my detailed feedback on her photos).

The above quotes MEAN NOTHING. Do not attache meaning to them. Remember, no expectations....NO MATTER WHAT.


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Originally Posted by Steve85

The fact she asked me and I knocked it out of the park and she was appreciative (I handled a lot of her business dealings for her business) made me think we had turned a corner!

Guess what, it did not! She was clear she still wanted a D, wanted to move out, etc. She was still engaging with OM (in fact sent nude pictures to him the night that I delivered my detailed feedback on her photos).

The above quotes MEAN NOTHING. Do not attache meaning to them. Remember, no expectations....NO MATTER WHAT.


Thanks for sharing this, both because it makes me temper my expectations and because the broader thread gives me hope (though we are further along than you so the odds seem to be more against me). I'm happy to hear that things are going well for you.


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Hey Steve,


What state do you live in?


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Well I was afraid this would happen. That I would need to post a not so positive update. But I do. I need you all to weigh in and give me different perspectives.

So while things have been going pretty well, in fact they continue to be better than they've ever been, I lately have been getting an inkling that she's been a little too into her phone again. Things slipping around the house again. I have been keeping things upbeat, cheerful. I've continued to realize that some of the things I made a big deal in the past are not that big of a deal. You know things like dishes in the sink, clean dishes in the dishwasher not emptied. In the past, pre-BD I would allow that to send me into uber-jerk, passive-aggressive mode. I am happy to report I've been avoiding that trap now!

Tonight, I stayed home from evening worship because I've been fighting a sore-throat. Not sure if it is just allergies or not, but I've been froggy and rundown all day.

Got the urge to do something I haven't done in months, and that was to snoop. Trust, but verify, right?

So fire up her PC. She is logged out. That's kind of odd because she hasn't logged out of the PC in well over a year. So I grab her tablet. Pull up her email. In the trash of her old business account (the business is now defunct) is an email exchange between her and some guy. French name. His is the first saying essentially, "good morning, hope you have a good Sunday." He does drop some pet names like sweetie, and uses some emojis. Her response is "Thanks for the well wishes, you have a good day too." Followed by some smilies..

Then another from him later in the afternoon, sending a selfie while he is out kayaking. (Apparently he is from Canada.) He ends closes the short message by saying "Good day sexy". Her response is "Thanks. Beautiful. Thanks for sharing."

Short. Sweet. Pretty innocent. Too be honest the most troubling thing about the whole thing is that she deleted his messages. And then went into her sent box and deleted what she sent. If there is nothing to hide, why cover your tracks?

I think she met him on one of the games because the tablet had the game loaded, so I went in and she had requests to play the game from this guy, or at least a guy with the same name.

Obviously, I am considering confronting about this. I know enough to not give away what I know or how I know. But at the same time she isn't dumb and will know that I figured all of this out somehow.I could take the approach of just saying I've noticed her on the online games a lot again lately and to make sure she is remaining appropriate, making sure guys like this Canadian know that she is married. Etc.

Really had hoped I never would be in this situation, but here we are. Thoughts? Advice? Should I confront?


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Hi Steve, ugh, sorry your boat's in choppy water again.

Originally Posted by "Steve85"
"He does drop some pet names like sweetie, and uses some emojis. Her response is "Thanks for the well wishes, you have a good day too." Followed by some smilies..

Showing enthusiasm for someone calling her pet names doesn't seem innocent. It does seem you've caught before it's progressed very far--no nude photos or anything, just flirting and encouragement.

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Originally Posted by CWarrior
Hi Steve, ugh, sorry your boat's in choppy water again.

Originally Posted by "Steve85"
"He does drop some pet names like sweetie, and uses some emojis. Her response is "Thanks for the well wishes, you have a good day too." Followed by some smilies..

Showing enthusiasm for someone calling her pet names doesn't seem innocent. It does seem you've caught before it's progressed very far--no nude photos or anything, just flirting and encouragement.


CW, I'm not sure I would or could characterize it as her "encouraging" it. You could say she didn't discourage it, though that isn't the same thing. I can't emphasis enough that it was very one-sided. But that they are in contact at all is concerning enough.


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The "some smileys" are what I took as encouragement, unless you meant that he sent them?

Him: "Bye sweetie!"
Her: "Thanks, you have a good day too. smile smile :)" <-- seems encouraging of his interactions.

Him: "By sweetie!"
Her: "Thanks, you have a good day too." <-- seems more neutral.
Him: ":) smile :)"

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Eh, she is a big emoji fan. That's not unusual. My dear is overreacting here. When I found her messages in Dec. 2017 that precipitated BD and my sitch, those were obvious. These are a guy who is infatuated trying to get something started. I would prefer her shooting it down hard, but obviously that didn't happen. Though I can't really say she did anything wrong either.


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Originally Posted by Steve85
Well I was afraid this would happen. That I would need to post a not so positive update. But I do. I need you all to weigh in and give me different perspectives.

Then another from him later in the afternoon, sending a selfie while he is out kayaking. (Apparently he is from Canada.) He ends closes the short message by saying "Good day sexy". Her response is "Thanks. Beautiful. Thanks for sharing."

Obviously, I am considering confronting about this. I know enough to not give away what I know or how I know. But at the same time she isn't dumb and will know that I figured all of this out somehow.I could take the approach of just saying I've noticed her on the online games a lot again lately and to make sure she is remaining appropriate, making sure guys like this Canadian know that she is married. Etc.

Really had hoped I never would be in this situation, but here we are. Thoughts? Advice? Should I confront?

Oh my gosh Steve, sorry to read this update. You've given me such great advice in my sitch and I hoped your W would not backtrack. I don't know much about these online games. Does the guy have access to a profile photo of your W? It's discouraging that she called him beautiful and seems to be playing along with his advances. I do think you should confront before it gets too serious and let her know the negative affects it could have on your MR. Your soft approach of stating that you've noticed she's been playing the games more often is a good first step. Perhaps she'll open up without you having to sound accusatory and her thinking that you've been spying on her online activity.


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I see! If she's regularly a big user of emojis, then I agree you are seeing things clearly--"I would prefer her shooting it down hard, but obviously that didn't happen. Though I can't really say she did anything wrong either." Last week, when my partner had lunch with a single male family friend, I decided my best response wasn't suspicion or jealousy but rather a strong and happy relationship. Good luck, Steve--the-helpful-with-the-good-head-on-your-shoulders. I'm curious what others will have to say/share.



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Originally Posted by curtis7
Originally Posted by Steve85
Well I was afraid this would happen. That I would need to post a not so positive update. But I do. I need you all to weigh in and give me different perspectives.

Then another from him later in the afternoon, sending a selfie while he is out kayaking. (Apparently he is from Canada.) He ends closes the short message by saying "Good day sexy". Her response is "Thanks. Beautiful. Thanks for sharing."

Obviously, I am considering confronting about this. I know enough to not give away what I know or how I know. But at the same time she isn't dumb and will know that I figured all of this out somehow.I could take the approach of just saying I've noticed her on the online games a lot again lately and to make sure she is remaining appropriate, making sure guys like this Canadian know that she is married. Etc.

Really had hoped I never would be in this situation, but here we are. Thoughts? Advice? Should I confront?

Oh my gosh Steve, sorry to read this update. You've given me such great advice in my sitch and I hoped your W would not backtrack. I don't know much about these online games. Does the guy have access to a profile photo of your W? It's discouraging that she called him beautiful and seems to be playing along with his advances. I do think you should confront before it gets too serious and let her know the negative affects it could have on your MR. Your soft approach of stating that you've noticed she's been playing the games more often is a good first step. Perhaps she'll open up without you having to sound accusatory and her thinking that you've been spying on her online activity.


To be clear, i don't think she was calling him beautiful, she was calling the scenery behind beautiful.


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I agree with you Steve...she was mentioning the scenery in my mind.

My concern is the same as yours I think. She should be shutting down other people's advances. If not, she's playing a dangerous game. But maybe she just finds it difficult to ignore or shoot it down. Easier to just be pleasant and hope it stops.

I agree it makes the most sense to just say you've noticed she's been playing games more lately and it makes you feel concerned.


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Originally Posted by Steve85
To be clear, i don't think she was calling him beautiful, she was calling the scenery behind beautiful.
Well, in that case, and considering you stating that things are better than they’ve ever been. I would probably hold off on confronting. She may have realized it was inappropriate afterwards, learned her lesson, and deleted to put it behind her as a temporary moment of weakness.

Trust your W, but verify. I would suggest monitoring over the next few weeks to ensure it is not recurring.


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Hi Steve,

Echoing others, it very much sounds like your wife's reference to 'beautiful' was to the scenery, and that it was all deleted because she realised it could be seen as inappropriate and wanted to expunge it and never go back.

I think too it's telling that she didn't say more to him - had it been as you feared, I suspect (and with no disrespect to your wife) the replies from her would have been far more 'graphic' and moreso opening the way for him to contact her further. As they were, your wife's replies sounded detached and polite, and not much more, imho.

All the best mate - my fingers and legs are crossed for you especially as you were the first person whose sitch I read here and it gave me a lot of guidance and an uplifted spirit!


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Hi Steve,


I would keep quite and collect more intel. I would also step up your interactions with W so she is not bored and drawn to the phone games etc.


How can you make your interactions with W more exciting for her?

Have you read "the Art of Seduction?"


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Really sorry to hear the update Steve. I have to think since he used the term "sexy" that pictures were exchanged. Sounds like your W enjoys receiving attention from other men. Has she ever worked through that in IC?

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Originally Posted by Ready2Change

Hi Steve,


I would keep quite and collect more intel. I would also step up your interactions with W so she is not bored and drawn to the phone games etc.


How can you make your interactions with W more exciting for her?

Have you read "the Art of Seduction?"




I believe I have. Seduction completed this morning! smile


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Originally Posted by LH19
Really sorry to hear the update Steve. I have to think since he used the term "sexy" that pictures were exchanged. Sounds like your W enjoys receiving attention from other men. Has she ever worked through that in IC?


LH, I would be surprised if she sent pictures. I'm guessing he based that comment on her game profile which pulls her Facebook profile pic. But you are correct, I do think she likes getting compliments from other men online. I am not sure I ever mentioned that her and I met online back in the 90s.

No, I don't think she had worked through that in IC. We barely touched on it in MC, though she was full blown wayward then.


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For me it seems pretty innocent. I wouldn't make too big of a deal of it. Like R2C said, make life outside of game playing more interesting. Do you also play these (online) games?

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I haven't looked on your thread in quite a while, but something told me to take peek today. I can't remember if I told you about my online gaming and the inappropriate things it led to, but it was an avenue to connect to men. I enjoyed hiding behind a computer and flirting. I think back then, and perhaps still, a lot of men used gaming (that require anonymous cyber players) as a means to connect with women, too, b/c they were eager to turn flirting into sex talk, and then get contact information and go from there. IMHO, these are lonely, bored people who start playing these online games and then it becomes an addiction b/c it involves conversation between the two players that become inappropriate. Her gaming may have started out innocently, but once she crossed the line that very first time and got a thrill from the conversations with the men, she won't ever be able to innocently play again without risking a backslide. Just as an alcoholic cannot ever drink without it speaking to that old addition. Currently, I have no desire, nor do I think about going on line to play. In fact, it kind of makes me sick to my stomach to remember back........but I'm not going to test it. Why should I? I don't need it, and can find plenty to do without it.

I'm going to tell you what I told Hoosjim. A recovering WW cannot participate in the same activities that brought troubles into her MR, and think it won't happen again. It has been over 12 years since I went online to play a game. I recognize it as a snare, so I'm going to stay away. For some people, it is a certain environment that gets them into trouble. For others, it may be the friend(s) they are with at the time. Your W has a weakness in this area of playing games with online strangers, engaging in flirty conversation, and then first thing you know......they are talking on social media, texting, or emailing, etc.

Although the MR has been going well, she has not conquered this area of weakness that she has. I don't understand why husband's think it is okay for any other man (who is not a close blood-relative) to have private conversations with their W. Is it b/c our society makes H's think they should accept that old lie of "just friends"? If a woman is married, she has no business having a private friendship with any man........period. IMHO, once the H and WW reconcile, then it should be understood from the beginning that she will have no private electronic (or other) contact with any man. If she won't agree to those terms, then the H is going to have more problems along these lines. I know our modern society tells us that is outdated and women are free to have friends with men, b/c they are equal, yada, yada, yada. Well, the same rule applies to husbands. If a man & woman are married, they don't have private friendships with the opposite sex. This is not a form of control, IMHO. It is a form of protecting the MR. Don't open the door to wolves (male or female).

So, I'm concerned that she is slipping back into an old behavior pattern. She will probably have to give up playing online games, altogether. That's also why the housework has slid, b/c it's consuming her time/attention. I can't remember if she agreed to certain terms of reconciliation that you laid out. I believe the sooner you nip it in the bud, the better. If you feel it necessary to gather more intell, just don't go too long, b/c of the damage it does to you.

Steve, does she have anything outside the home, like hobbies, church programs, community work, etc.?


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I do not. Her online gaming and singing is about the only socializing outside of the family and church that she engaged in. LH nailed it. She has admitted for years that new people, mostly men, don't realize so if her flaws. She has this idea that if someone knows her flaws then she isn't good enough.

She also is an extreme introvert. Not that she is shy or quiet, but it drains hey to be around people in person. Online she can socialize without the energy drain she gets in person.


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Originally Posted by sandi2
I haven't looked on your thread in quite a while, but something told me to take peek today. I can't remember if I told you about my online gaming and the inappropriate things it led to, but it was an avenue to connect to men. I enjoyed hiding behind a computer and flirting. I think back then, and perhaps still, a lot of men used gaming (that require anonymous cyber players) as a means to connect with women, too, b/c they were eager to turn flirting into sex talk, and then get contact information and go from there. IMHO, these are lonely, bored people who start playing these online games and then it becomes an addiction b/c it involves conversation between the two players that become inappropriate. Her gaming may have started out innocently, but once she crossed the line that very first time and got a thrill from the conversations with the men, she won't ever be able to innocently play again without risking a backslide. Just as an alcoholic cannot ever drink without it speaking to that old addition. Currently, I have no desire, nor do I think about going on line to play. In fact, it kind of makes me sick to my stomach to remember back........but I'm not going to test it. Why should I? I don't need it, and can find plenty to do without it.

I'm going to tell you what I told Hoosjim. A recovering WW cannot participate in the same activities that brought troubles into her MR, and think it won't happen again. It has been over 12 years since I went online to play a game. I recognize it as a snare, so I'm going to stay away. For some people, it is a certain environment that gets them into trouble. For others, it may be the friend(s) they are with at the time. Your W has a weakness in this area of playing games with online strangers, engaging in flirty conversation, and then first thing you know......they are talking on social media, texting, or emailing, etc.

Although the MR has been going well, she has not conquered this area of weakness that she has. I don't understand why husband's think it is okay for any other man (who is not a close blood-relative) to have private conversations with their W. Is it b/c our society makes H's think they should accept that old lie of "just friends"? If a woman is married, she has no business having a private friendship with any man........period. IMHO, once the H and WW reconcile, then it should be understood from the beginning that she will have no private electronic (or other) contact with any man. If she won't agree to those terms, then the H is going to have more problems along these lines. I know our modern society tells us that is outdated and women are free to have friends with men, b/c they are equal, yada, yada, yada. Well, the same rule applies to husbands. If a man & woman are married, they don't have private friendships with the opposite sex. This is not a form of control, IMHO. It is a form of protecting the MR. Don't open the door to wolves (male or female).

So, I'm concerned that she is slipping back into an old behavior pattern. She will probably have to give up playing online games, altogether. That's also why the housework has slid, b/c it's consuming her time/attention. I can't remember if she agreed to certain terms of reconciliation that you laid out. I believe the sooner you nip it in the bud, the better. If you feel it necessary to gather more intell, just don't go too long, b/c of the damage it does to you.

Steve, does she have anything outside the home, like hobbies, church programs, community work, etc.?



Thanks Sandi, your fear is mine as well. Admittedly I went the path of letting her go and letting her decide to comeback. I didn't give hard conditions. The only real condition I made was that if another EA occurred then she was out of chances. That I would insist on ending things for good. I think much of what you online here is true, and I agree. But I do struggle with the control aspect.

No she's not involved too much in much of anything. Care for our daughter, teaching the nursery class at Bible study, that's about all. Then she had the online singing and gaming.

I'll continue to try to monitor. I'm not sure how this guy got her email. The particular have she plays that he also plays only allows canned messaging.

Sandi, thoughts on my next steps?


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Steve, first I'm sorry to hear about this, it's got to be gut-wrenching.

I'm going to disagree with the others, I feel like you need to confront her right away because it's only going to continue to progress if you don't. She's well on her way to going wayward again. It sounds like you caught it fairly early because she's not reciprocating, but she is definitely not doing anything to stop it or even slow it down either. And the fact that she is covering her trail is a CLEAR indication that she KNOWS it's inappropriate. If she is all-in with the marriage then she should at least be telling him something like "you're saying things that are making me uncomfortable, please refrain" and at most should be blocking him. I would talk to her, ask her why she feels the need to let someone speak to her that way and then hide it and ask her what she would suggest to get things back on track. Try to be as loving about it as you can, but do get it out in the open and address it.


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It's quite the slippery slope she is on...

Up until my W went WW, I was always the guy who wouldn't get involved with women who had "guy friends" and needed to take pictures for online validation (not that Steve's W is doing this.) Being married to a WW certainly tests the limits I previously had.

If you don't talk to your W about this, will it seep out in unhealthy ways? For me it would. I could see myself getting angry easily, taking small things to heart, or being passive aggressive. Best to lay it all out. I bet your W wouldn't approve of you doing these things. Might be a few curse words thrown around if the roles were reversed.

Remember Steve, you're the man. A good, hardworking, good looking guy who cares about his family. You deserve better than this. You deserve respect. Know this and live this.


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Thanks AS and ovr. I've got some thinking to do.


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M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017
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M(53), W(54),D(19)
M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017
Ring and Piecing since March 2018
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