So after W left, she called me back. She said that she thought what we had/have is a perspective problem. Neither of us were looking at our problems with the understanding of each other.
M:16 T:21 H(me) 38 WW: 38 S11 D16 D19 Red Flags of A: March 2018 ILYBNILWY: August 4, 2018 Moved out of MBR: September 24, 2018 BD/Confirmation of A: October 31, 2018 D Filed: March 27, 2019
W had a company function today where they apparently were talking about communication. She sent me a pic of one of the slides. I asked her what it was about and she said "We'll talk about it later."
No idea what she's thinking, but at least it looks like she's thinking.
Haven't heard from her tonight. That's probably a good thing.
At this point I would trust her as far as I could pick up a semi-truck and throw it. She has shown no real effort to change. Mac I would stay the course.
M(53), W(54),D(19) M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017 Ring and Piecing since March 2018
At this point I would trust her as far as I could pick up a semi-truck and throw it. She has shown no real effort to change.
Agreed. The only thing she's shown is a very reluctant willingness to change, but it's not because it's right...it's self-preservation on her part. That's not going to work at all.
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Whatever happened with the talk your W was coming over for?
Well, the first time, she didn't come over, but then she did a day or so later. Basically I sat, listened, validated for a couple of hours. At the end, she asked "So, do you think I've been abusive to you for the last two hours?" to which I replied "No, but you did spend two hours telling me what was wrong with me." She got a bit upset at that and left. She called back about 30 minutes later to, as she put it, "try to end the day on a good note". She pointed out that she (and I) have been arguing for months out of a place of hurt and that we're so focused on what's wrong with the other person that we aren't taking each other into consideration, and she said we needed to work on that. I listened, and just stuck with "I understand what you're saying." Yesterday was the text of the communication chart that actually (and completely unplanned, so that's interesting) backed up the rational behind what she was trying to explain on the phone. Random. She said she'd tell me about it later. Haven't heard back from her since.
She pointed out that she (and I) have been arguing for months out of a place of hurt and that we're so focused on what's wrong with the other person that we aren't taking each other into consideration, and she said we needed to work on that.
Taking away all past actions and ways in which you got to this point - this is a potentially valid point from your W. It would be a good starting point for future R talks, if you head that direction. If you have any R talks, being sure to focus only on how each of you feels/felt hurt. It would be important to gently remind one another that the point of the conversation is not how you feel the other person should change, but identifying what each of you wishes to change in yourselves.
I did agree with her that the point was valid. We have mediation Tuesday, and she's still randomly seeing this one dude as far as I know, so R isn't on the table just yet.
I believe the only reason she's acting this way now is because the D is getting close and my atty has taken steps to make sure she can't pull any more dirty litigation tricks, and she doesn't like that our S will be living with me (even though she says it's ideal and he's currently living with me).
Mediation prep happened a bit ago. We're ready to roll. The atty basically said that it's almost a guarantee that S will be living with me and that things will be split fairly, but if W gets crazy and tries to take it to trial, there's a good chance she'd get stuck with paying ALL of the debt. So...that's a thing.
Should be an easy case.
I know that's going to make W start trying even harder to figure things out...but it'll just be a reaction to the incoming nukes, so I won't put any stock in it until I see for sure.
Sounds good, hopefully your attorney is right and it'll be smooth sailing! Good luck! Quite right about your W, probably trying to dangle the recon carrot in front of you hoping you'll back off in the negotiations. Stay strong!
Spent a big chunk of the day going back, listening to recorded phone calls. That wasn't a great idea, but I was doing it to get ready for mediation tomorrow.
W talking about OM: "I'm not trying to replace you. OM isn't interested in replacing you as S's dad. He doesn't want anything to do with S."
Same call: "I'm still with OM, and one day that will end. But you need to respect it and don't try to mess it up."
Same call: "It makes sense for S to live with you right now."
Same call: "If S doesn't live with me, that's like losing part of my identity."
Same call: "If I were to come back, I have a lot of friends that when I'm around I couldn't look myself in the eye."
I ended up having bad dreams last night after going through all of those calls. And I'm upset again today. But it'll be fine.
Mediation day is today. Of course I woke up with a scratched cornea, so it looks like I'm crying. Ouch. But...it'll get better hopefully before mediation.
W is taking S to a dr appt, then to his grandparent's house for the day. W said she doesn't want to go to trial, so that's a positive.
Good luck with the mediation! You know what to do at this point. Stay strong!
W 34 Me 42 Married 7 years together 8 0 kids 1 beloved dog BD 4/6/2018 I moved out 4/7/2018 I moved back in alone 8/05/2018 I file 3/06/2019 D official 5/7/2019
Mediation day is today. Of course I woke up with a scratched cornea, so it looks like I'm crying. Ouch. But...it'll get better hopefully before mediation.
W is taking S to a dr appt, then to his grandparent's house for the day. W said she doesn't want to go to trial, so that's a positive.
We'll see how it goes.
Glad I am not the only 1 that scratches their eyes in their sleep. Whether it is the pillowcase, or my rubbing my eyes with crust in them. I'd say at least once every 3 months I do that. I've even considered sleeping with goggles on.
M(53), W(54),D(19) M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017 Ring and Piecing since March 2018
Well, we reached an agreement on a few things. Not everything, but we can still work on that.
Joint managing conservatorship, but S lives with me.
The only thing W fought over really was when I said I didn't want OM around S. She agreed to give me custody quickly, but refused to agree that OM couldn't be around S.
That'll be for the court to decide, although OM has a criminal history, so the atty thinks it'll be a really easy argument to make.
You know, the monitored app is kind of amazing. She wanted it, and to meet in public only...no contact otherwise. Yet she's called a couple of times, sat in my car on trade offs, and wanted to meet at the park where there are few people and no cameras.
So today I decided to call her bluff. I sent a message in the app stating all the above, and saying I'm not going to meet her anywhere that there aren't cameras, and I'll be recording audio. I have been, but I made sure it was documented in the app. She said that she didn't want any contact with me at all in person. I told her (also in the app) then she needs to stop calling me, and move S's drs appts to HER days with him to eliminate the need for another meeting in person.
We had agreed in mediation that we would work together to split debts and agree on those on our own. She said today that she has to talk to her atty first.
I'm working on getting my atty to hurry and get the temp orders for custody so I can go ahead and file for child support. I'm not going to let her stall this out forever.
She made all these rules thinking that I was the only person that had to follow them.
bm, good for you. Yes she is dragging her feet, and playing games. Way to call her out on it. Look for her to get ugly now. I wouldn't doubt if she starts filing motions left and right. I know other people with vindictive exs that get dragged into court all the time. Your stbx has all of the markers of pulling that kind of garbage.
M(53), W(54),D(19) M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017 Ring and Piecing since March 2018
Fortunately, I've taken steps to ensure that just about anything she could throw at me will fall flat.
Just going to keep trying to get this done.
W did actually reschedule S's therapy visit this week to her day. That will help keep her from claiming extra days. Not that I'm stingy, but I found out she's been telling people she has more parenting days than I do, which isn't true at all. So I'm going to hold her to the rules (of course, within reason). As soon as I get orders, I'm going to file for child support, which will help our situation drastically, plus send a very clear message that I'm not going to waste time playing her games.
Yeah it's strange how time works isn't it! Those months after BD seem to drag on and on yet a year later it seems like it all went by in a flash. Once you hit 3 years or so post BD, it seems like a distant hazy memory. Or maybe that's just me and my old age
I saw something strange today. Got pictures from a recent company event (because we still work for the same company) and it looked like she was still wearing the rings I gave her. Not on her left ring finger, but her engagement ring on the left middle finger and her band on her right ring finger.
The consensus that one of my coworkers and I had is she probably knew I'd see the picture and it would bug me.
Of course, it still seems weird to be a year into the separation, almost done with the divorce, and for her to show up in pics wearing the rings at all.
Kinda funny, really. Not putting any stock into it, it doesn't ultimately matter (that I know of). But just thought it was weird.
Ugh. So we had to request a hearing to finish up the stuff we didn't get to during mediation, requested "as soon as possible"...but the court set the date half way through April.
"I think there's something weird going on with W. Her mom took the day off to go be with her, another fam member asked her why and it took a few minutes to come up with: "she's losing weight and we're going clothes shopping". Legal problems, pregnant, kicked out? Definitely not shopping though."
Me: *sits back and waits to see what kind of karma bomb goes off in the distance*
Interestingly, she's been gaining weight, had acne breakouts like mad, and she dyed her hair blonde (only time this ever happened was when she was preg with S).
I'm pretty close with her aunt, yes. In fact, most of her family (except her mom, dad, and sister). Some of them have even helped me pay attorney fees and living expenses.
Thanks, but I would appreciate no further updates on W. I am moving on with my life and since we are soon to be divorced I would prefer not to hear what she is up to and what she is doing.
But Aunt, how are you? I miss you? Want to have lunch sometime?
BM
M(53), W(54),D(19) M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017 Ring and Piecing since March 2018
neffer - GAL is going fine. She's been gone over a year now, S lives with me, and things have been pretty calm for the most part since I'm avoiding W every way I possibly can.
Steve85 - Man, you know, I hadn't actually talked to aunt in a while. She messaged me, and honestly whatever happens to W is totally on her. She's not sending me info like she used to for sure, and that's been a nice thing. But if W is preg, then that's going to put a serious hold on the D. I'm ready for it to be over already, but it keeps getting pushed back (at least now it's due to atty time conflicts with trial dates). Nothing about W shocks me anymore, and at this point, if she's preg, I can probably just laugh since it's definitely not my child, and there's zero question about that.
I guess that's the upside to detaching. No matter what it is, I'm not really going to be all that shocked (unless she's dying or something, which would be a bad thing). Nothing else will actually be that surprising that I can think of.
I'm mentally ready to hear literally anything at this point: preg, engaged, std, whatever. Not my problem at all.
In fact, because she's so likely NPD, it also wouldn't shock me if she tried to come back when she makes a big enough mistake and expects me to bail her out of it. That's highly unlikely at this point.
I've come a very long way. I can't say that I'm past the hurt, because honestly it still hurts. I don't think I'm ever going to be the way I was before her. Nothing in my life has ever hurt as much as this did. But that doesn't mean I can't be happy and make the best of things for S and I. And that's what I plan to do.
In a way, I hope she's ok. But in a way, I also just don't care anymore. I don't know if that's good or bad, but it is what it is.
I had a friend in a similar situation he hoped his ex would see sense and he was willing to bring up the child as his own . She appeared one day with a month old baby and cried because her new man had been angry with her . It got very messy when she went back to her new man 2 1/2 weeks later . Protect you son
There is a great post from coach somewhere . Join a team , maybe a sports challenge event to raise money for disabled people . Join the unlikeliest one you can and help them achieve with you helping, show your son what you are made of
Steve85 - State laws. This state won't grant a divorce while a parent is pregnant here because they have a presumption of paternity, even though I can give them the date of the last time we did stuff and prove that if she is, it's not my child.
Tryhard - I will always protect my S. We don't really do sports, but we both have guitars. I have no plans to raise someone else's child. So, if it turns out that she is pregnant...well, that's going to be an interesting bridge to nuke when we get there.
Good for you , I just get the feeling that the situation is leaving you clinging. Drop the rope and be the best dad you can . We as people can sense someone’s pain . Find something that you and son can do that will make amazing memories. Look I don’t know you , you do , find it and do it , you’re a great guy , you don’t deserve what you’ve been handed , but you can shine if you let go and let yourself!!
Steve85 - State laws. This state won't grant a divorce while a parent is pregnant here because they have a presumption of paternity, even though I can give them the date of the last time we did stuff and prove that if she is, it's not my child.
I'd look into this. I am not sure that law applies to spouses that are separated, especially when the one pregnant has another person. So don't assume. Talk to your lawyer.
M(53), W(54),D(19) M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017 Ring and Piecing since March 2018
I'd look into this. I am not sure that law applies to spouses that are separated, especially when the one pregnant has another person. So don't assume. Talk to your lawyer.
I have. I'm definitely not assuming. The state will not grant a divorce until the child is born and paternity is established.
Paternity can be established or denied by both parties agreeing that the husband isn't the father, but that cannot be done until after the child is born.
blackmac, do I detect you being happy about this possibility?
I wouldn't say "happy", but more like "well, that would be funny in a cosmic sort of way". At this point, I have zero interest in her coming back (it would take a miracle for her to even begin to realize what she would need to do to win me back). My interests are solely to keep S safe and get some serious healing time for myself. It's been 1 year and 14 days since she walked out. It's been 1 year and 3 days since I found out about OM #1 and the narcissistic abuse started against me in full force. Over the past year, I've been documenting, recording, and researching to come up with a plan for what I need to do.
Last night, I went for a drive. S was at W's house. I decided to wait till "overnight" hours and drive past to see if OM #4 (confirmed, but who knows how many others there have been) was there. He was not.
But OM #1 was, because he's now dating her roommate.
I grabbed some pics of his car there, and this morning I sent them to my attorney, and sent them to W in the court monitored app along with the court order that would make that a violation. She denied that he was her paramour. I responded with text messages between her and I, a description of our conversation, the fact that she admitted it, the fact that I had confronted him and he admitted it, and some extra texts to show her gaslighting me afterwards.
The rules state no paramours between 10pm and 7am on the same premises. She said he wasn't one. I sent the definition of a paramour.
Right now, I'm all for ending this whole ordeal. It's been a total nightmare for over a year now, and I just want some peace and for her to stop the mental/emotional abuse.
So, I don't care if she's preg. That's on her. I would have to wait longer for resolution, but then she'll have to deal with the fact that she clearly DID act out, and everyone can see it. She's great at hiding the things she has done, calling me abusive, trying to make me think I was crazy. That game is over.
Do I still love her?
I don't know. I love the person she seemed to be. But this person isn't that person. This isn't my W. She's the mom of my S, and I'll always encourage them to be close...but I will absolutely hold her accountable for her bs, because what she's done (and continues to do) isn't good for S to be a part of. I'm not having that.
People who are done don't do all of what you just did. I didn't mean are you happy about her being preg, I meant are you happy that would mean it delays the divorce? I've been with you on this journey since the beginning. I've seen you use any excuse to stall, delay, and hedge on the D. I realize D seems like a nail of finality. It is merely a step in the process. I think what it would let you do is finally really let go of the rope. I don't think you've ever done that fully.
M(53), W(54),D(19) M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017 Ring and Piecing since March 2018
Free yourself some more B. Let her go, truly go, from the heart. Move forward.
I am.
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People who are done don't do all of what you just did.
I don't really care if I ever get married again or not. Right now, I'm saying that's not in my future. I know that delaying the D could be a good thing if W ever decided she wanted to work on things...but she literally said that she DID a day before mediation, when she said she DIDN'T.
I've spent a lot of time today going through back texts, screenshots, etc. documenting instances of her being mentally and emotionally abusive towards me (and there's a LOT).
The difference now is that I understand that 1) she's VERY abusive and manipulative, 2) she has intentionally kept me on the back burner for when she wanted attention from me or someone to scapegoat for her problems, 3) I suffered some pretty severe mental and emotional trauma because of her, 4) she really, truly doesn't care for S or I...only herself, and has used S to get attention for herself (and I've documented that as well).
She's not exactly safe to be around at this point. She's starting to have people at work get involved in getting me to do things she wants me to do (like the president of the company), and I'm not letting her push me around.
I'm not even going out of my way to contact her.
I know D is a step in the process. But beyond that, she's got more work than I believe she's capable of to prove that I should trust her, because for the past year, literally EVERYTHING she has said was a lie or an attempt to hurt or manipulate me.
I've let go of the R rope. I'm not done with the "healing from abuse" one yet though.
I've been thinking too much about her the last couple of days.
I know, I need to stop.
Sorry. Just needed to get it off my chest. I've been doing so well up until this past week. Probably because it's the anniversary week of the OM discovery right after the split. A couple of them. It was all pretty fast.
I'm trying to keep my mind occupied with other things, I really, really am.
But tonight, for the first time in a very long time, I cried.
(((Blakmac))). Hang in there Balkmac. Please don’t be so hard on yourself. Hating her is just the other side of the coin...it still takes just as much energy. Focus on you. You will not feel this way forever. Time and distance will always, always help...try to give yourself both of those things. (((HUG)))
Just over a week ago, W asked me to change weekends with her so she can "work" on spring break weekend, then she would have S for three weekends in a row. I told her I would have to think about it.
She waited till the last minute to write her work schedule. I didn't ever give her an answer (I had decided that if she tried anything funny, I would be glad to keep S with me, but I wouldn't be switching weekends). She messaged me today and said she got someone from a different store to come work, and her schedule is now all morning shifts with Saturday off, and she would have a normal weekend with S.
Which is a good thing. I'm sure it may have had something to do with me not budging for her sake (probably wouldn't have had to work and just wanted to party), or the fact that I've been uploading TONS of evidence in the court-monitored app that would work against her. But she finally decided that for this once, she's going to be a mom.
I thanked her for letting me know and asked if S would be staying at his grandparents on Saturday (which is usually what she does). She said no, he would be with her.
I politely stated that (and forgive me, this isn't going to sound as polite as I put it in the app) I have given evidence of her paramours being at her house while he's there, and if I find out that it happens again, I will be pursuing contempt of court charges against her for breaking the standing court orders forbidding any paramours from being on the premises with S overnight.
Even if it's an old paramour that she's not currently dating (because they hooked up before she filed the first time and now he's dating her roommate).
I'm taking a very hard stance against her now.
And honestly, I hate it. I guess I still have some sympathy and love left inside of me for that horrible girl.
I don't have any hope for R. None.
But that doesn't mean I don't wish it could be that way.
Just get some GAL and keep that road. Still there are too many "she"s in your posting. Let W free and free yourself. We know it´s hard B, but you must do it. The sooner the better.
Keep moving forward B. Keep DB.
WW H(me): 53 W: 48 T: 27 M: 22 S: 18 Piecing since 03/2016 Saw the light in the storm
W asked me today if I would let her roommate watch S tonight so she could go work. I asked if OM1 would be there (since he's now dating her roommate). She said "I don't know their plans, it's not my business."
I reminded her that there's a court order in place that prevents it, and I've already caught him there overnight once, and that standing orders are taken seriously and she could end up with fines or jail, and that if her friends think it's okay, then they aren't good friends.
Suddenly, she found a way to not have to go to work.
She said she sold our couch (her reason was because I didn't pay the car insurance, however she's changed the password and refuses to give it to me). I asked her how much she got for it. She's refusing to answer questions.
While I get that some may say that I need to not worry about this stuff, the standing orders are very relevant to our D, so I have to know this stuff.
She's refusing to look at any messages she doesn't want to answer. In the court monitored app.
W doesn't know that I know, but she's buying a house (in her mom's name, of course). It's not cheap. She got evicted from an apartment that was $585/month, so I'm not sure how she thinks she's going to afford $1,300/month mortgage.
Yeah my XW accumulated 70k in CC debt when we were married without saying a word to me about it until it was monstrous. Once she did we came up with a plan and took care of it. Then she left me and now has her own house (bigger and more expensive than mine, the one she couldn't even manage half the bills on) AND goes on vacations seemingly monthly. I have no clue how she's doing it unless her mom is supplementing her income or she came into a big windfall somewhere. But it's been going on for years and she hasn't been foreclosed on or anything! So yeah, your W might very well make it work despite your thinking she can't. It's not really your concern one way or the other though, is it? Other than making sure S is safe.
Mine did something similar...but instead of helping pay it all down, she just left. It's not really my concern except she's also trying to get me in trouble at work (confirmed with HR), and she's trying not to have to pay child support despite giving me primary custody. But as for S, he needs a safe place to visit with W. Her mom just retired from a small town radio station, so her income is going to be very low. W makes a decent amount, and they are doing this in her mom's name so that W can dodge having to say it's her house (we're still technically married, so if she IS on the paperwork, that's going to be a giant fiasco for her). Her moms old house is horrendous, she was a hoarder, the place honestly needs to be bulldozed.
I don't think there's any windfall here. W and I work for the same company, so I know roughly what she makes, and it's not enough to swing that house note and child support (once it kicks in). So really, it's a bit amusing the lengths she's going to in order to appear to be a "good mom" and a "tough, smart, independent grown woman".
There's no possible way she could do this without someone else being on the hook for it. And since her mom co-signed for the apartment she was evicted from, once this falls through (which is pretty likely), that's going to make it far, far harder for them to make it work.
Had a meeting with the school today about S's upcoming school year stuff. W and I both had to be there.
She's a bit strange. Any time I catch her looking at me, she does that shy giggly thing that girls do. Then she almost blurts something out, but says "nope, can't say that" instead. I tell her she might as well say it, and she just shyly grins and refuses.
I know it's probably just more verbal abuse she's trying to keep inside. Or backhanded things. Or something nice that she doesn't want to say because she doesn't want me to catch on that she wants me on the back burner in case she can't "find herself" in the pile of OM.
Pretty sure it's that last thing though. lol.
Ah well. Not much changing these days. Just thought it was funny that she still gets like that around me.
Another (blatant) manipulation attempt after I ignored all the flirting from W yesterday...
Got a message from W: "I'm having a pretty severe allergic reaction to coconut right now. I can't find anyone to cover for me at work for my shift today. If it's still this bad when I get off, I'm considering urgent care or the ER. If I go there, would you be able to keep S? Please let me know. Thanks"
Now, a bit of backstory...she's been saying she's mildly allergic to coconut for YEARS, but I've never seen her have a severe reaction to any of the stuff she's claimed that she's allergic to that she refuses to stop consuming.
Refuses. Not forgets and accidentally consumes...just doesn't care to stop. ====================
So I'm looking at this message and a few things are really interesting (that clued me in that this screams 'help me I need attention and I'm gonna use you to make that happen)...first, she is at work. She can't find someone to cover her shift, and IF she feels bad after her shift she MIGHT go to the ER...well, that's not a "severe" allergic reaction. Here's my response:
"If you're having a severe allergic reaction (swelling, breathing issues) then you need to go to the ER now, not later. Also, you've said for years you were allergic to coconut, so consuming it while knowing you're allergic isn't a great decision.
There's a convenience store right next to the store (and a WalMart). If it's not so severe that you have to leave work now, I'd recommend taking some Benadryl, because it's not an emergency.
If you ARE having actual severe symptoms, then go to the ER right now. "
====================
Subtle, check. Attempts to use my feelings as a tool, check. Trying to use me to get a free night off by exaggerating an issue, also check.
I don't mind helping in an actual emergency. But this doesn't appear to be an actual emergency, and it just looks like a blatant manipulation attempt to me.
Right now, I'm not in the "win her back" stage. I'm in the "stop letting her abuse me" stage.
She's an adult. She knows what she's doing...she's telling me "I'm in danger, but I'm fine, so I'll handle this later maybe if I want to, so can you give me the night off? I get off work at 4:30, so I just want a free night."
Also, I have already made plans. I have a guest coming in tonight from out of town. Due to standing court orders, they can't be at my house overnight when S is there. So I would have to cancel. She's not asking me for help, she's trying to use me. She's been overly polite in person, flirty, and now she wants to play mind games (really, I'm in danger, but I'm fine?).
That's the thing, I'm not falling for her manipulation anymore.
Ultimately, that's what it is. She knows it. I know it. If I allow it to go on forever, it will just go on forever.
You are light years from her reality B. Just don´t let any anger interfere with your plans. Detached and far away over the horizon. There´s even no need to any mind reading on her. Just let her be.
Just keep being there for your son, as usual.
Keep strong there man!. My best wishes for you and your S.
WW H(me): 53 W: 48 T: 27 M: 22 S: 18 Piecing since 03/2016 Saw the light in the storm
I’m assuming Steve meant why NOT . A chance at extra time with s? Jump at the chance . Smile and wave buddy smile and wave !
No, she was looking for a reaction. My simple response was less reaction and more response. BM gave her the attention she was looking for. She is a grown butt woman, she knows the difference between an emergency and not an emergency.
M(53), W(54),D(19) M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017 Ring and Piecing since March 2018
Right now, I'm not in the "win her back" stage. I'm in the "stop letting her abuse me" stage.
She's an adult. She knows what she's doing...she's telling me "I'm in danger, but I'm fine, so I'll handle this later maybe if I want to, so can you give me the night off? I get off work at 4:30, so I just want a free night."
Also, I have already made plans. I have a guest coming in tonight from out of town. Due to standing court orders, they can't be at my house overnight when S is there. So I would have to cancel. She's not asking me for help, she's trying to use me. She's been overly polite in person, flirty, and now she wants to play mind games (really, I'm in danger, but I'm fine?).
That's the thing, I'm not falling for her manipulation anymore.
Ultimately, that's what it is. She knows it. I know it. If I allow it to go on forever, it will just go on forever.
You didn't give this context before. My response would have been:
"Ok let me know if you go into the doctor. I will make arrangements for him."
She was looking to rile you. Your response gave her the riled bm.
M(53), W(54),D(19) M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017 Ring and Piecing since March 2018
Fair enough, my focus would be on s and everything else behind . Being potentially manipulated would be a difficult situation to be in I am sure . I am on your side dood. I may have got it wrong and I apologise deeply.
So...W wrecked her car yesterday. S was with her, they're both fine, but the car is kinda not so good.
So today she messages me and tells me how that went down. Hydroplaned into the back of another car.
She also told me S was telling her dad that I said I didn't like him (I didn't say that to S). So, W said she explained it to her dad and says basically she defended me...?
She also told me about the house her and her mom are buying in town and that they'll be moving in, and how she's excited about it.
I haven't replied. Just left her on read.
Talked to a friend about this, the friend says she believes that W is responding well to me being more authoritative in my life, standing up to her, and actually acting like I don't care what happens (pretty sure that's the point of the GAL thing...so...maybe there IS something to that...).
No major changes, just interesting that W is trying harder to flirt and communicate now that I've been consistent in standing my ground.
BM, I feel like you've been here before. Be careful. Do not let her manipulate you. I feel like you've allowed that in the past.
It does seem familiar, doesn't it? Heh.
I'm definitely a lot more resistant to it these days. Being away from her and putting up with all of the previous manipulation and WW behavior has made me a lot less wishy-washy.
I haven't responded to her message still. Nothing in it really requires a response.
I haven't totally caught up on your sitch, but you definitely seem to be in a much better place than you were when I last read your sitch months ago. Keep up the good work. From the bit I've read, it seems like she's trying to manipulate you and keep you attached. Not replying to her messages unless absolutely necessary is gold. I wish more people had the ability to do that. It was a turning point for me...
Me: 38 W:31 Kids: S16(mine from previous R), D10, S9, S4 M: 10 years T:12 years BD:Jan 3, 2018 W moved out: Apr 13,2018 Filed for D: Jun 2018 D final: Sep 2019
I found an interesting letter from W that she wrote me a while before she checked out. I wanted to share it and get other opinions on it. So far, the opinions I've gathered about it are...well...I don't want to say. But this was BEFORE she moved out.
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Hey babe,
I've been doing a lot of thinking since our last fight. I can't stand the way your mind always looks for the easiest way out. The path of least resistance. But I hate picking up, cleaning, doing the dishes, too. So, I'm trying to sympathize with that.
I just really feel like the household duties are disproportionately doled out. I wear way too many hats. And when I try to delegate some of my responsibilities to you, I almost always end up disappointed. Either the task was done wrong, or not finished, or not even done at all.
And that's so incredibly frustrating that I want to cry. I feel like I can't rely on you for help or relief. And I think to myself "why didn't he think to do it before I told him to? Why is it so hard to do things the right way, the first time?! I shouldn't have to babysit this man!"
Those thoughts run through my head every single day. I hope you can understand how and why I get so angry.
But today I've been trying to appreciate all the things you do for me that I overlook. I know I overlook the things you do and focus on the things you don't. It's easy to be mad. It's hard to be fair and understanding.
You helped me close last night [note: we worked a mutual PT job at a restaurant]. You were willing to watch me eat even though you were tired. You got out of bed and picked up the baby and kept him out of my hair long enough for me to get some sleep.
Tonight, instead of going to band practice, or to play Magic with friends, or anything else you might want to do, you're gonna stay home with our son so I can go to work. You'll probably spend your time thinking of me and how you could fix things.
And that's another thing I overlook and under-appreciate - you constantly trying to find ways to fix things so that I can be happy.
But happiness is a choice, and I've been choosing to be unhappy, so there's honestly nothing you could have done. No magic button to press. My happiness is up to me, but I've left it up to you. No one can make me happy if I do not chose to be happy with what I have.
I have you. never in my life has anyone loved me more completely or selflessly. Really, you're obsessed (in a good way). Most of the time you completely ignore how crazy I am. How mean. How rude. How ungrateful. You overlook my faults like you can't see them. And you just love me fiercely. And I'm awful to you.
I love how your lips are so warm in the morning when I kiss you. I love that you say "I love you, too" in your sleep. I love the way your eyes deepen when you look into mine. I love the way it feels when we hug each other. I love your silly jokes and all the inside jokes we share. I love you.
No matter how angry or mean I get, that doesn't change. I don't feel like my world is okay until we make up.
And I don't think a "perfect partner" exists, but I'm starting to think that it's not about finding someone that never lets you down.
It's about finding the person who wants you, even when you let them down.
I think it's because she has a personality disorder, to be completely honest. She follows the patterns for NPD or BPD to the letter...more so BPD after trying to learn about it for over a year now. This letter was a while before she left.
What I know is that somewhere around the time of that letter, she had also been having feelings for one of her ex bf's (they worked together), also one of my coworkers (that she met about 2 weeks before leaving me). I had suspected for a while that she was talking to other people. I can't confirm that there was a PA prior to her moving out, but she wasted no time once she did move out, and there were plenty of sketchy things that she would do for the past couple years before moving out that made me question whether or not something was going on. She would spend time with her friends (including guys) drinking after work, go to parties (found a Whisper post of hers saying 'Going to a party and my ex will be there, IDK if I'm nervous or excited). So I'm pretty positive that at some point along the way or shortly before she left there was a PA. She admitted there was an EA going on...probably more than one.
As bad as I wanted to save all of this, at this point I don't think it's worth it. If she's BPD, then she'll need years of work and therapy to get better to the point where she won't sabotage relationships. And I don't think she's going to do that, to be honest.
BPDs are inherently unhappy with themselves. They believe things like "I fear that he will abandon me, so I'll leave him...that way he's not leaving me." It's just...crazy.
I got a message from W a couple weeks ago stating that she has been seeing a doctor for anxiety and panic attacks. I know that in the past she has been suspected by a therapist of having a personality disorder. So...I don't think I'm really that far off on my estimate.
I found a few letters like that from my wife after she left. I'm the love of her life, her rock, couldn't imagine a life without me, blah blah blah. Were they sincere? I don't know. In that exact moment they might have been, but that didn't stop her from cheating on me a few months later. Sometimes I wonder if it was a desperate attempt on her part to talk herself out of doing what she was going to do. Or maybe she was already doing it and it was written for me to find to think she would never cheat on me. I'll never know. But I did know where I was supposed to put those letters when I found them. The garbage. As much as I liked reading those things, in the long run, all it did was make me hurt more. Brought up the "what ifs" and the "what could I have dones". I realized it was just a piece of paper and if she really loved me and wanted things to work, she would be at home with me trying to make it work instead of banging other dudes. And I certainly didn't want to read those things every other day and feel sorry for myself...
Me: 38 W:31 Kids: S16(mine from previous R), D10, S9, S4 M: 10 years T:12 years BD:Jan 3, 2018 W moved out: Apr 13,2018 Filed for D: Jun 2018 D final: Sep 2019
But I did know where I was supposed to put those letters when I found them. The garbage.
Eventually I'll do the same. Or maybe I'll put them in a shoe box with some pics for S to have when he's older (old enough to understand, so that'll be years down the road).
But in the meantime...I sent copies of it to the attorney, since W decided to take the route of telling everyone how horrible I was to her in person...just to thwart that line if she tries to use it in court.
We just left a meeting with our CPA that W had set up. I ignored everything she said except for things explicitly regarding S or the business we were there to take care of, but I didn't even look at her. Oh, and when we left she said "have a good day" and I just replied "you too."
The gray rock approach is interesting, because it really helps make situations smoother (basically suppressing all emotional reactions, saying very little, etc.). While waiting, there was a commercial on the tv with a wedding on it, so my brain got weird and I kind of laughed to myself (she didn't see the commercial...she was too busy looking at me with big puppy dog eyes, wondering why I was ignoring her, and fidgeting nervously). I could see out of the corner of my eye that she had that "PLS PAY ATTENTION TO MEH!!!" look on her face.
In a way, it was funny. I *almost* felt sorry for her, but I stuck to gray rock.
Something that I noticed between the DB book and advice on dealing with narcissists/borderlines...the advice is almost identical. Pretty interesting, if you ask me.
And now she's trying to reduce the amount of child support we agreed she'd be paying. Also, apparently she has registered an email address that includes her name...and the last 4 digits of my social.
Attorney has been notified.
There's something really, really off about that. lol
We're doing alright. Things have calmed down with him a lot since W and I actually got some planned visitation. We went to court to decide on a few things that she wouldn't agree to in mediation. I had requested that her current OM stay away from S. I didn't quite get that...but the judge decided to handle her rule breaking in a (to me and my attorney) funny way. There's a standing order that says no overnight OM when S is with her. The judge ordered that going forward, no men (dating or otherwise) overnight with W when S is present...until he is 18. That was a shocker, but also very, very funny. The judge put her under oath just to ask her what OM did for a living (he's a cook at a restaurant that has quite tasty breadsticks, but I won't be going back to that place). Then the judge laughed at her and gave her that decision. It was hysterical. Oh, and W has to be there to supervise if S is around OM, no exceptions. He can't visit at W's moms house when she's not there, and S can't stay with him while W works.
As for GAL, I had to take a trip to Vegas two weeks ago for work. So I decided to drive. The trip was pretty good, met some locals, had a good time. Nothing too crazy though since it was a work trip. But I definitely have to get back there for a normal vacation.
Just waiting on her atty to fix the final decree. My atty sent an awesome letter to her attorney. I can still feel the sting off of it. lol.
There's a standing order that says no overnight OM when S is with her. The judge ordered that going forward, no men (dating or otherwise) overnight with W when S is present...until he is 18.
Bet that put a damper on her future plans.
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
I can’t believe you got that in your divorce decree. What if she remarries?
Be careful about this stipulation. If she settles down with a guy, your son might feel like he’s left out if she is gone when she he is at his moms. If your ex does develop a healthy R somewhere down the line, for your sons sake, your don’t want him left out vacations, events, etc. because of that stipulation.
Trust me. I would have moved hell or high water at first to keep my daughter away from OW. There was a point where it would have hurt my daughter . He married his OW and she has a stepmother there ( who does a good job caring for her) . I imagine my daughter would wonder why her stepmother went to sleep at someone else’s house when she is there......
When I say “I can’t believe” I mean “I can’t believe a judge allowed that.
Also, does this block out overnights with any woman who may come into your life? Considering you pretty much have full custody, that might be pretty rough
I had to hold back laughter in the courtroom. Hahaha!
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I can’t believe you got that in your divorce decree. What if she remarries?
I didn't ask for that. I only asked that current OM not be allowed around S. Neither me nor my attorney asked for or expected it. But the judge decided to add this himself presumably since she's already broken this rule several times. There's no language in there giving her an out if she wants to get married, so...not my problem.
Currently, W lives with her mother. "Mother" bought a house here in town that W is actually paying for, so she has an automatic, built-in babysitter if W decides she wants to go do something overnight. If S ends up resenting her for it, that's unfortunate. I'd rather that not happen...but she wanted to take this path, so she can deal with the fallout.
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Also, does this block out overnights with any woman who may come into your life?
Nope. It's pretty much strictly a penalty against W. The only way to make it stronger is to include women in it, since she has been known to date women as well. I may need to bring that up, although I doubt W would do that as much since she's living with her mom now.
If it is a new guy who seems decent, I would let up on this. It’ll only end up hurting your son. Trust me. I can’t remember, was OM bad to your son? A danger?
Nah, same OM as before (#4, really) who was raising cobras in his apartment and has a criminal history. He's not allowed to be around S unless W is there to supervise. But OM and W have both said it was just a casual thing, except W seems to think she has/had feels for the dude...which she said about OM #3, and it's kind of a pattern for her. She's just a mess, and that's her problem. I didn't ask for that stipulation, and it's not my problem. W needs to learn to be a responsible adult, and I'm not gonna do that...but I'll definitely be fine with a judge doing that at this point.
I've got plenty of my own consequences to deal with because of the mess she left behind. She can deal with this one. S and I have actually been doing a lot better. D is still pending, but we're just waiting for her atty to quit messing around with the final decree (trying to manipulate the amounts of child support). I'm taking on all of the debts except for some IRS debt. She's basically getting out mostly free and clear except child support since S lives with me, so she's trying to get that down or eliminate it so that I can't handle the money situation, fail at life, and she swoops in like the hero and tries to get custody back (after willingly handing it over).
Lately she's been doing little things to try to get back around me, like today she wanted to see S knowing that I'd have to be around her to hand him off. It's not her visitation time, she saw him Wed and Thursday nights, and the entire week before that because I had to travel with work. It's subtle, but it's a thing I've noticed her doing. When she hears that I'm doing well, she tries to get all friendly to kind of check up on me. Not really interested in letting her do that lately.
I wanted to save it, she went full narc. Never go full narc. I don't play well with abusive people.
She's asking if there's a chance to put the family back together.
What are your thoughts on this? She seems to temp check you fairly regularly, do you think this just another temp check or does it seem different? Where are you on possible recon after all she's put you through?
Agree with Steve's response, if you're intending to respond at all.
EDIT- the fact that she texted this makes it seem a little contrived. I think I would just not reply at all, if it's really that important to her she can tell you in person and then you can hit her with Steve's suggestion.
She's asking if there's a chance to put the family back together.
What are your thoughts on this? She seems to temp check you fairly regularly, do you think this just another temp check or does it seem different? Where are you on possible recon after all she's put you through?
Agree with Steve's response, if you're intending to respond at all.
EDIT- the fact that she texted this makes it seem a little contrived. I think I would just not reply at all, if it's really that important to her she can tell you in person and then you can hit her with Steve's suggestion.
Yes, do this!
M(53), W(54),D(19) M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017 Ring and Piecing since March 2018
What AS said, just slow play everything. You really need time to consider everything, plus she needs time to show consistent actions. Keep expectations low.
Good luck.
H 34 W 29 BD 3/12/18 Divorce Busted Spring 19
It is not things that bother us, but the stories we tell ourselves about things.
Just gonna catapult myself clear over this minefield. Heh.
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I would suggest Something like. "Wow. Not sure. That is a lot to consider. I need some time to gather my thoughts around that."
I didn't respond at first. Then she copied the text over to the monitored app (probably because I uploaded a screenshot for documentation). When she sent the same message in the app, I just went with "why did you send that?".
She said something about spending yesterday afternoon talking and thinking about me while making a Father's day gift with S, and we had some bad weather last night that scared her. She called me to make sure I was ok last night. Then the message this morning.
It feels like a hoover attempt. It doesn't add up based on her reasons. Maybe that's part of it...but she didn't freak out about dying (part of what she told me about the storm) when she wrecked her car a few weeks ago, so I doubt that's really it.
I think it's because she knows she's losing in court.
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Do not let her back without doing the work and earning her way back. Or you'll end up right back here again one day.
Oh, neither of those things are happening. For sure.
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What are your thoughts on this? She seems to temp check you fairly regularly, do you think this just another temp check or does it seem different? Where are you on possible recon after all she's put you through?
I think she's realizing how hard things are about to get for her, and me taking her back would get her off the hook for a lot of consequences in her mind...and in reality.
I think it's a ploy.
I am not at the point where I want to see her in person. She's done way, way too much. She requested that we only communicate through OurFamilyWizard except for medical emergencies regarding our son. I've stuck to that. The only person that's broken that agreement has been her.
I'm willing to hear her out as long as she doesn't try the manipulative stuff, but so far all she has done today is try to get my attention on her terms and resisted actually trying to talk stuff out in the court monitored app. So I'm thinking if she really means it, she'd be willing to say that stuff where there's a record of it (not like I wouldn't record audio of us meeting and talking). But it sounds to me like things aren't going her way, and just as soon as she gets whatever emotional reaction she wants (she sees me and gets her feels taken care of), she's just going to disappear again.
S deserves better than to have all of the back and forth.
Is that 0.5% subject to change? Possibly. But that all depends on her, and words mean nothing to me. So far, that's all I'm seeing...words.
Ok BM, I ask that because if you are at 0 percent, then I wouldn't even entertain it. Either way you should be moving forward with the D. This may be more stall tactics on her part.
M(53), W(54),D(19) M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017 Ring and Piecing since March 2018
