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#2833351 01/17/19 08:08 PM
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DejaVu6 Offline OP
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Originally Posted by DejaVu6

AS - King Douche of Douchebag World... that made me laugh outloud. You are right. He has done nothing to divest himself of that title, that's for sure.


Right? Seems to go out of his way to make sure he maintains the crown!

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I hate that I still give him any space in my mind and in my heart. My biggest strength, in this situation, is also my biggest weakness. I am committed and loyal to the people I love - almost to a fault.


I think a lot of us can identify with that sentiment. The people who find themselves here are typically very loyal and committed to sticking with their spouse even if things haven't been so great for a long time. It's a crying shame there aren't more people like us in the world, it would be a more loving, caring place. We're a dying breed in this fast-food disposable-relationship culture we live in today.

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Going through old text messages was a dumb move on my part. Not sure why I did. I think I just wanted to remind myself that, at some point, he did still have feelings for me and that a part of him did want to do the right thing and try to work on the relationship. A cheeseless tunnel, I know. Sometimes we can really be our own worst enemies.


Well I think it's part of recovery. It's a way for us to remind ourselves that we really AREN'T crazy, our WAS really did love us and care for us at some point regardless of what they say right now. It doesn't make any sense that they can just turn their feelings off, but yet it happens. You may have seen me mention this before but my ex told me in tears that I needed to take care of myself, that I couldn't die because if I did she could never go on with her life. I mean she was crying her eyes out! There was nothing that triggered it, she just felt the need to tell me she couldn't survive without me. 6 months later- BD. What happened in those 6 months that suddenly changed her mind about the M? NOTHING. Nothing at all, not one thing was different. How do you mentally grasp that a person can do such an extreme 180 like that? I wish I could tell you, or that someone else could tell both of us, LOL! Anyway my point to you is this- this is about your H, not about you. You are clearly a loyal, loving, caring, sensitive person that many men would be proud to be married to. Your H? A switch in him flipped, and he's not who he used to be. Maybe he will be again some day, but maybe not. Regardless, don't lose who YOU are.


Me: 60 w/ S18, D24, D27

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Originally Posted by DnJ
Not quite. That is when you realize you are, and were, addicted.

Being in love is being in love. Being addicted is being addicted.

You loved H for years and in the best sense of the word, you became addicted to him, to the feelings you had when with him. That is total expected from a long term loving relationship - it’s a good thing.

The thing is, you didn’t know you were addicted during all the good times (well relative to now). The removal or loss of the stimulus from him is causing withdrawl symptoms.

The word addiction has a negative connotation about it. However, it is just a state of being, a dependence on certain feelings or chemicals within your brain. That is not a problem in a loving relationship when addicted to your partner.

Addictive behaviour is when troubles start. As your need for that feeling increases (withdrawl) things get worse. We do something to ease the pain, which resets things (sort of).

Fight you way through withdrawl. You will find addiction is addiction, and love is love.

You can love H, and not be addicted to him. Just has much as you can hate H, and be addicted to him.

The addiction is separate, deal with it separately. Love can remain, honest.

DnJ


Thank you DnJ. The idea that you can hate someone and be addicted to them really helped me understand what you are saying. And to love and not be addicted is the definition of detachment. Sounds so easy, doesn't it? The million dollar question is how to go "cold turkey" when you have kids. It seems like something comes up at least every other day that necessitates some sort of contact. Lately, however, it has been mostly about financial things which is definitely a trigger for me. So hard to see it as just a "business deal".

Had a text from another one of H's cousins last night. She figured out that H either deleted her from his friends' list on FB or deleted his FB altogether. She knew that we had separated and wanted to know how I was doing. She also knows that he pretty much bombed me and left without much warning so is not impressed. She has been through h3ll in her marriage. Her H had a stroke a few years back and he was the breadwinner in the family. She has had to go back to work while looking after him (he can't work and is also depressed) and her mom who is also depressed since her husband (my H's uncle) died two years ago. Her H is but a shell of his former self but she has stuck by him through everything (they are also pretty devastated financially) and still has a PMA. I don't think my H likes her much. He thinks she is too loud and intrusive. He's not wrong but I like her a lot. She has a good heart and strong values and is the kind of person who would give you the shirt off her back. She is also an identical twin like me. smile

Still having a bit of a down week. All the financial stuff and my H's attitude toward it has affected me. But I will persevere. Still looking forward to the day when my H is not the last thing I think about when I go to sleep and the first thing I think of when I wake up. Routinely, I wake up, look at his side of the bed (still sleep only on my side) and tell myself quite sternly... "He is never coming back - get over it." Not the most positive way to wake up but it is what it is. I also try to imagine someone there in his place and I just can't. I am sure it is not the same for him and that he can't wait to replace me. For all I know, he already has.

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Originally Posted by AnotherStander
You are clearly a loyal, loving, caring, sensitive person that many men would be proud to be married to. Your H? A switch in him flipped, and he's not who he used to be. Maybe he will be again some day, but maybe not. Regardless, don't lose who YOU are.


Ironically, the love song that my H wrote for me early on in our relationship, talked about just that. He called me the "teacher" and him the "student". I guess somewhere along the way I stopped teaching or maybe he just stopped learning or maybe it was both. No use in wondering though...just leads to the "if onlys" and "what might have beens". Cheeseless tunnels.

Originally Posted by AnotherStander
It doesn't make any sense that they can just turn their feelings off, but yet it happens.


When I think back on it, I think my H was standing in the doorway with one foot in and one foot out for years. He couldn't make a decision so he just ran when he could and stayed when he couldn't run. When I found out about his double life, he couldn't do that anymore and it forced him to make a decision. Initially, I think he was leaning towards staying in the marriage and trying to put the pieces back together. However, as time passed and he found himself unable to put both feet in, he opted to run again. When it comes down to it, I don't think he had the strength of character to endure the pain he would need to go through to face himself and atone for his actions and that even if he did, I would always remind him of the worst part of himself - either intentionally or unintentionally. It seemed to him a much easier path just to blow things up, endure the fallout from a safe distance and wait until everyone had adjusted to the "new normal" and forgotten about everything he had done. Anyway, once he made his decision, he had to go all in which is why he has pushed so hard for this separation agreement and is walking away without so much as a backwards glance. Oh to have that walkaway mindset...would save me a lot of grief, I think.

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DV

Yep, detachment sounds so easy, and yet takes so long to get it. Once you do, you’ll look back and wonder why it was so difficult and took so long.

Originally Posted by DejaVu6
Still looking forward to the day when my H is not the last thing I think about when I go to sleep and the first thing I think of when I wake up.

I still remember the first day I realized I hadn’t thought about W yet. That was amazing. Until then it felt like I would never get over her.

Your day is coming DV, even if it doesn’t feel that way.

DnJ


Feelings are fleeting.
Be better, not bitter.
Love the person, forgive the sin.
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Thank you DnJ. I know my day is coming. I both long for it and fear it at the same time. Crazy, I know.

So kids are off to bed. Long night of homework and forgot that both of them need baths...again. Four years of “single parenting”...you would think I would have it all figured out by now. I so love those little monkeys. They are doing a journal assignment that involves them doing kind things for one another every night and/or teaching each other something. Of course...there are arguments about one teaches the other, etc... Hmmm...not sure that is the point of the assignments. And my daughter had math homework. She has dyslexia so her brain just does not get math. Whenever there is math, there are inevitably tears. Well...at least it was me here and not my H. He s*cks at math.

Feeling a bit better tonight. I think it helps that I was pretty busy for most of the night. Less time to think. Talked to my MIL for a bit. She says she barely hears from him and when he does come by, he can’t seem to be in the house for more than five minutes...even when I am not home. It is almost like he has separated from her too. Their relationship is very different from the one I had with my parents. I was very close to my parents. We talked almost every day. My value system was pretty much the same as theirs. I loathed to ever disappoint them. Given that my H never really left home, I would have expected him to be a lot closer to his mom. They love each other, no doubt, but there is just a level of closeness that is missing. My parents KNEW me. They didn’t know everything I did necessarily but they knew who I am at my core. It is not the same with my H and his mom. It’s like they don’t talk about anything really personal...just surface-level stuff. It’s been almost four months since we found out about his double life. I think they have yet to talk about it. If that were me and my parents, we would have had a hundred conversations about it by now. It is just so strange to me. I asked my MIL if she thinks that anyone really knows my H and she said she doesn’t think so. Like me, she thinks there are people who know bits and pieces but no one who really KNOWS him. She would have thought that I am the person who knows him best but clearly that was not the case.

Guess I should head to bed as well. Six a.m. comes quickly. So glad it is Friday tomorrow. My son told me tonight he is taking a break tomorrow from his regular Friday night activities. He just wants to hang out with his mom. smile

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Originally Posted by DV6
It seemed to him a much easier path just to blow things up, endure the fallout from a safe distance and wait until everyone had adjusted to the "new normal" and forgotten about everything he had done. Anyway, once he made his decision, he had to go all in which is why he has pushed so hard for this separation agreement and is walking away without so much as a backwards glance. Oh to have that walkaway mindset...would save me a lot of grief, I think.


DV6...you are very right in how much of what each of us have written is applicable to the other. For sure I could have written that exact passage about my W. I don't know that my W has had a double life, but for sure running for the person that she is was/is the only option. My IC has expressed how my W was unable to be vunerable, negotiate, compromise or sacrifice and given that is how she was I can see that her only option then was to run. I DID NOT understand the importantance of those character traits in a partner for a successful relationship until I got into IC. It wasn't that I was blind to them or tried to pretend, I simply didn't have the knowledge to see those as red flags before we married.

Sadly I think as Stander has accurately expressed as the "fast-food disposable" and I would expand to say entitled, "I shouldn't have to work at this" relationship culture the default now is to just blow things up instead of work, sacrifice, endure and build. The continued acceptance of divorce as the easy fix "if you are unhappy just leave" within our society enables those who blow things up to move on without guilt.

I hope you have a good day. Enjoy Friday night hanging out with your son! smile

-B


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Time to cycle up girl. Go! You know who you are. You are the DB supergirl.

(((((((((DjV))))))))))


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Originally Posted by Ballast
My IC has expressed how my W was unable to be vunerable, negotiate, compromise or sacrifice and given that is how she was I can see that her only option then was to run. I DID NOT understand the importantance of those character traits in a partner for a successful relationship until I got into IC.


That is my H too. On the surface it looks like he can but I have found out, the hard way, that any compromising or sacrificing he does comes with a price...resentment and blame. I was not a perfect person, by any stretch of the imagination, but I was always 100% committed to our marriage and to him. If he had been able to be vulnerable and tell me what he was going through as opposed to expecting me to be a mind reader, I would have moved heaven and earth to fix things.

Originally Posted by Ballast
Sadly I think as Stander has accurately expressed as the “fast-food disposable” and I would expand to say entitled, “I shouldn’t have to work at this” relationship culture the default now is to just blow things up instead of work, sacrifice, endure and build. The continued acceptance of divorce as the easy fix “if you are unhappy just leave” within our society enables those who blow things up to move on without guilt.”


Yes. My H said as much. He thinks you find the “right” person and then it should just be easy. You would think after 45 years on this earth, his view of love would have evolved but it has not. He is still quite unrealistic. He should not have to make an effort. We should not be telling our kids to “find the right person”, rather, we should be telling them to “be the right person.”

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Originally Posted by DejaVu6
We should not be telling our kids to “find the right person”, rather, we should be telling them to “be the right person.”


I love it! This is the essence of DB.


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DV,

your H is like most people, including most of us on the DB board, in that we don't have all the skills necessary to have great relationships. My W has said the same things, that R should just come naturally and not be work. Obviously she and your H are coming from a perspective of pain and avoidance, and doing work to repair the damage they've caused is scary for many reasons. They'll come to grip with it in their own time.

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Feeling a bit better tonight. I think it helps that I was pretty busy for most of the night. Less time to think.
YES! So true. Are you exercising too? I find it can help you feel better, look better, and sleep better. You could involve the kids in something like this too...

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I asked my MIL if she thinks that anyone really knows my H and she said she doesn’t think so. Like me, she thinks there are people who know bits and pieces but no one who really KNOWS him. She would have thought that I am the person who knows him best but clearly that was not the case.
Your H is going to find out that you are talking to "his" family. He is going to see this as pressure. He doesn't want to tell his mom what he's doing and why, that's scary to him. And he doesn't want to stop what he's doing either, right? I just don't have a good feeling about talking to his mom.

Are you communicating and having fun with "your" family, friends, and support group?


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Originally Posted by DV6
If he had been able to be vulnerable and tell me what he was going through as opposed to expecting me to be a mind reader, I would have moved heaven and earth to fix things.


yeah DV6 the mind reader issue. had that exactly as well.

when, admittedly rarely, there was an attempt between myself and W to discuss her unhappiness i received "i shouldn't have to tell you/explain it to you, you should be able to figure it out" IC said to me that is the mindset and emotional immaturity of a 16yo girl.

the whole character trait of being able to be vulnerable to express to your partner what it truly is/was you needed from a relationship. again i simply had zero idea that such a thing even existed OR was important to have a successful long term relationship. i got the crap kicked out of me pain wise through this loss, but i did for sure learn way more than i ever knew existed and perhaps more than i'm adequately able to process and understand.


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Just got a rather pleasant logistics-type text from my H starting with "Happy Friday Afternoon :)" and ending with "Hope your clients are treating you well. :)" Why does my heart ache so much when I get these? He is just so d*mn happy while he is breaking our family apart. I mean, what is up with all these smiley faces? Does he just live in a completely different world than me? I miss him like crazy and he is perfectly content without me. How can he not miss me? I was his BEST friend for years. We have been through so much together and shared so many good times before he became the person he is now. Sometimes I think it would be so much easier if he had just died instead of this. Isn't that ridiculous? Man do I wish I had his talent for leaving people. It really is amazing how easily he seems to do it.

So I feel like I am backsliding a bit here. [You think Captain Obvious?] This week has been one of my saddest yet and I've had some pretty bad weeks. I keep telling myself this is just the pain of my heart preparing to finally let go... once and for all. And then there is the fear of being alone for the rest of my life. And then also the fear of meeting someone who seems great and then falling for him only to find out he is as messed up as my H or even worse. I'm not sure I could take going through this again. It is the WORST pain I have EVER felt and sometimes it seems like it is never going to end.

I am just so mad at myself, truth be told. Yes my H has been King Douche of Douchebag Land but he wasn't always like that. I knew years ago that I was losing him in my heart of hearts but I was just too scared to address it and maybe if I had when I first felt this way, we could have done something to fix it before he was so far gone. Ironically, by giving into my fears and not talking to my H the way I should have, the thing I feared the most has come to pass. And it hurts worse than I had even imagined it would. Gosh I feel so pathetic right now. Honestly. Where is my self respect? He is gone and most people in my shoes would say "good riddance" but not me. Seriously...there must be something wrong with me deep down that I can give away so much of my own power to someone.

I know... I'm spinning right now. I would be the first one to give someone else crap about that. Somehow writing out my worst thoughts help. I know I am not going to die from this. I know there are better days ahead. I know that who my H is now is not someone I should even want to be in an R with. My head is totally on straight about all of this. It's my heart that is struggling. Yesterday, my sister called me to tell me some interesting news and my first thought after we hung up was that I wanted to call my H and tell him. But then I remembered. He is not that person for me anymore. Sadly, even when he was apparently hating me from afar, he was still that person for me and I was still that person for him. Good news, bad news...we were each other's first call... right up until BD. Thirteen years gone...in the blink of an eye.

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Saw your posts after my last one. Thanks you Ovrrnbw & Ballast.

Originally Posted by Ovrrnbw
Your H is going to find out that you are talking to "his" family. He is going to see this as pressure. He doesn't want to tell his mom what he's doing and why, that's scary to him. And he doesn't want to stop what he's doing either, right? I just don't have a good feeling about talking to his mom.


I don't think there is added pressure on my H from talking to his mom. They never talk about things and there is not much I can say to her that she hasn't observed directly herself. She has been with us for the entirety of our relationship. Regardless, we don't talk nearly as much as we did when all this first started. You have to remember, my H lied to her as much as he lied to me and she was the one who was helping me with everything when he was away at his "treatments". She has her own issues with him. She is a really good person and not bitter or resentful. She supports me but I know would not get involved by trying to intervene on my behalf. She may, however, one day have a conversation with him about how much he hurt HER...but then again, she may not. Anyway.. I have honestly really cut down on our convos. And I do get support from my family and friends but I am trying not to talk to them as much either. I know that they are thinking I should just get over it so I don't like bothering them when I am having a tough day. Generally I just mostly post on this board.

RE: exercise. Been a bit lax on that lately. It is on my list.

Ballast - Everything you wrote resonated with me. That is my H. He wants movie love (which we had in the beginning) and expects it to last without any effort from him. The stupid part is that he really made an effort in the beginning... I mean the guy wrote a song for me on the ferry ride home after our second date. But it just didn't seem like it was an effort. That's the part he doesn't get. In his memory it was effortless but in actuality, it wasn't. It just wasn't an effort to make an effort...if that makes any sense.

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Originally Posted by DejaVu6
I miss him like crazy and he is perfectly content without me. How can he not miss me? I was his BEST friend for years. We have been through so much together and shared so many good times before he became the person he is now. Sometimes I think it would be so much easier if he had just died instead of this.


I get the feeling that W would be perfectly content without me, even if that is 100% not true. She said that she isn’t sure she’d be happier with anyone else, just that she’s not happy with me. I do think about all that she and I went through—the good and bad. I feel a thought similar to yours, but instead directed my way—that things would be easier for her / us if I got called home, and she could have her life without me. I know it’s incredibly sad, but the thought has occurred to me many times before today.

Originally Posted by DejaVu6
So I feel like I am backsliding a bit here. [You think Captain Obvious?] This week has been one of my saddest yet and I've had some pretty bad weeks.


I’m with you—totally backsliding, into a long weekend where we all be home together. For me, though, I just know things are going to get much, much worse before things really start to improve.

Originally Posted by DejaVu6
And then there is the fear of being alone for the rest of my life. And then also the fear of meeting someone who seems great and then falling for him only to find out he is as messed up as my H or even worse. I'm not sure I could take going through this again. It is the WORST pain I have EVER felt and sometimes it seems like it is never going to end.


I don’t necessarily have that fear of being alone—at least not yet. I know I’m broken, but can be fixed and improved, and am working on it, piece-by-piece, day-by-day. I do know that I can be really good for someone down the road (MR 2.0, or someone else in time). Some days on this forum I probably sound irrationally confident that I can move on and like I may have an inflated sense of self and self-worth—I’m trying to PMA. W has held up the possibility of recon down the road—but I’m not sure how much I should trust her about that, and I really struggle with being sure I want that, because I know I can’t have THIS MR, or have her in the current state that she is in right now.

But I am worried about what if we D and I find someone new, and things fall apart (don’t want to make the same mistakes), or what if W and I ever get to recon and piecing? What do I really want here?

Honestly, DV, you sound really wonderful—and I’m sorry we all have to go through this. I’m sure you’ll find someone amazing, in time.

Originally Posted by DejaVu6
I am just so mad at myself, truth be told.

Ironically, by giving into my fears and not talking to my H the way I should have, the thing I feared the most has come to pass. And it hurts worse than I had even imagined it would. Gosh I feel so pathetic right now. Honestly. Where is my self respect? He is gone and most people in my shoes would say "good riddance" but not me. Seriously...there must be something wrong with me deep down that I can give away so much of my own power to someone.


Like you as well, I am so so mad at myself. I feel like I have only myself to blame—that all the bad things she said I said and did have total merit, and that I’m the world’s worst husband. How could I have done these things to her? Why didn’t I listen like she wanted? Why didn’t I help like she wanted? How could I have hurt her so bad? Why did I do this to her, to us?

W last night said that both of us are responsible to an extent for what has happened—but all I’m hearing from her is how I’m this and that and the other. I never wanted to be at this point, either, but here we are. My self-respect fluctuates—some days I feel unstoppable, that I got this, that I’ll totally bounce back—other days, I feel so so low. But yeah—how could I have given so much power to another, that I struggle to see my own goodness and worth?

Originally Posted by DejaVu6
I know... I'm spinning right now....Somehow writing out my worst thoughts help. I know I am not going to die from this. I know there are better days ahead. I know that who my H is now is not someone I should even want to be in an R with.


Same. Totally spinning. It’s been a rainy / cloudy / dreary week in SoCal, and that doesn’t help. Also W and I have had some very tense, highly-charged convos this week.

Like you, writing out my thoughts help, which is why I post so much, in terms of number of posts, but also in terms of length.

I know, ultimately, I won’t die from this, and I hope to come out better from this—that there are better days ahead, for me, potentially with W, or with someone else in time.

I’ve gone back and forth with how much I even want to be in a relationship with W right now—she is so much not herself that it’s not even funny.

(((HUGS)))

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(((Bo)))

Originally Posted by Bo562
I feel a thought similar to yours, but instead directed my way—that things would be easier for her / us if I got called home, and she could have her life without me. I know it’s incredibly sad, but the thought has occurred to me many times before today.


Of course I would not want my H to die but I think that the finality of death would make my path clear and it would not be littered with all these feelings of rejection. That is the biggest hurt. It is not that my H is not with me because I was alone a lot. Rather, it is because my H CHOOSES to not be with me despite having soooo many good reasons to have tried to make things work not the least of which is giving our kids the benefit of growing up in a two-parent home (and studies have shown that there is a HUGE benefit to that unless, of course, it is an abusive environment). He would rather go hundreds of thousands of dollars into debt and live pay cheque to pay cheque once again (and those years S*CKED!!!) than to try to make things work with someone who he once claimed to be "madly" in love with and promised to cherish her "for the rest of my [his] life". #epicfail... on both our parts.

Originally Posted by Bo562
W has held up the possibility of recon down the road—but I’m not sure how much I should trust her about that, and I really struggle with being sure I want that, because I know I can’t have THIS MR, or have her in the current state that she is in right now.


Just the fact that there might be a possibility, I think, is a reason for hope. It doesn't mean that you count on it but it does show SOME uncertainty on her part. My H only showed uncertainty for the first couple of weeks and even said he was coming home at one time but once he decided he wasn't, that was it. Full speed ahead. Let's divide our finances and move this along... got more important things to do. End of story. Never been more sure of anything in his life, it would seem. So my little pity party really is all for naught. At this point, I am just torturing myself.

Originally Posted by Bo562
I don’t necessarily have that fear of being alone—at least not yet. I know I’m broken, but can be fixed and improved, and am working on it, piece-by-piece, day-by-day. I do know that I can be really good for someone down the road (MR 2.0, or someone else in time).


I think I would feel more optimistic about this if I was younger. I was 32 when my first marriage ended. I was single, living on my own and loving life for five years before I met my H. I didn't do a whole lot of dating the first few years as I wasn't divorces yet but after my divorce, I got into the OLD world and had a lot of fun. I think my H was the fifth guy I went out with. I got along great with the other four guys but that certain something was missing... when I met my H, that was it for me. "Love at first sight". For him too. I had never had that before with someone. With my first H, it was a friendship that slowly grew into something more and we were together five years before we got engaged. After our split, I told myself that I wanted to be deeply in love in my next longterm relationship and I wanted him to be as well.

In hindsight, maybe we went too fast. I met him in May 2005, he moved in with me for the summer, I found a job on the mainland and moved in with him in September and we got engaged in December of that same year. We married in March 2007 and I got pregnant three months later. We had planned and been prepared for (mentally & financially) one child and then we had twins. Life changed dramatically and I think we really underestimated the impact on our MR. The first couple years were pretty good but after that... life just became very routine and mundane and we stopped taking care of each other and just took care of the kids. Fast forward 13 years and now I'm 50, almost 51, and living in a much smaller community. Most men my age are looking to reclaim their youth so are wanting younger women. I, myself, have always looked younger than my age so have always dated men who are five to seven years younger than me. Of course, the last time I dated I was in my mid-30s. Anyway...suffice it to say, the chances of me finding someone for a longterm relationship (serial dating just does not appeal to me) is pretty slim. Also, I've been watching this show lately called "Dates From Hell" and I have to say, there are some real nut cases out there. And the scary part is that they don't come with a warning sign. Most of them look pretty good at the beginning.

Originally Posted by Bo562
My self-respect fluctuates—some days I feel unstoppable, that I got this, that I’ll totally bounce back—other days, I feel so so low.


^^^^^^^^ Exactly...me too!!!

Originally Posted by Bo562
Honestly, DV, you sound really wonderful—and I’m sorry we all have to go through this. I’m sure you’ll find someone amazing, in time.


Awww...thanks Bo. I sure wish I had your confidence. I am much more confident that you will. smile

Originally Posted by Bo562
Also W and I have had some very tense, highly-charged convos this week.


The good news is that you are still having them. My H and I are past that. No more talking for us. It's all over but the crying...at least for him. I'm still catching up.

Originally Posted by Bo562
I’ve gone back and forth with how much I even want to be in a relationship with W right now—she is so much not herself that it’s not even funny.


I think that is to be expected given everything that has happened. Luckily you don't really need to figure that out right now. There is lots that would have to happen for that decision to even be made. Keep DBing. Do your 180s and GAL activities. Practice kindness when you can yet establish your boundaries. Try to act instead of react. There is still a good chance for MR 2.0 if you both do the work. You can only do your part though. I think if you do and there comes a time when you need to make that decision, you will know what is best for you and your family.

(((HUGS)))

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Fluctuation is very normal early on. Eventually the good days will outweigh the bad. You can hang on to hope as long as you want as long as it does not prevent you from moving forward. I analyzed everything early on, I should have done this, I wish I said this, how did it come to this, etc. in the end none of it mattered as my Xw was full steam ahead with seemingly no regard for family and our young daughters. What I learned was that I can’t put my values and beliefs on her. It takes two to get married but only one to end it. Sad but true. Looking in the rear view mirror at the bad will prevent you from moving forward to the light. Ultimate self care and doing what makes you happy is of utmost importance at this time. Do what makes you feel good.

I was with my Xw for 17 years and we have two beautiful daughters that will never grow up with an intact family. I am determined though that they see me happy, healthy, and being there for them. Making their lives as normal, loving, and as positive as I can make it. I always try to remember as horrible as it has been there is always someone that has it worse than me.

You will be happy again, you will find love again, and your kids will be just fine. Even though I still have some anger and resentment towards my x I am determined that my daughters will never feel awkward around me and their mom. I never talk bad about their mom, we always sit next to each others their events, and still have joint birthday parties. If you handle yourself with honesty, dignity, and respect they will come through this. This is something that I take great pride in no matter how my x is behaving.

I did not date for a year after my x left and it was the best year of my life. You deserve someone that wants to be with you. I rediscovered myself, learned and accepted my contributions to the failure of the marriage, and realized that I am a whole person that can be happy alone.

1 step at a time, 1 second at a time, 1 minute at a time. Try to stay present in the moment.


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DV,

Joseph is exactly right. You are still very early on if your BD was in mid September. I remember being 4 months in, and it felt like an eternity (time is relative after all!) but in reality it takes that long and even longer for most people to even begin to come to terms with their new reality. It's not like some switch will flip and you will be "over" it but you will start to have better moments, then better minutes, then better hours, and finally better days and even better weeks. It's not like a switch will flip but eventually you will notice that those uncontrollable cycles of thoughts are less common or even completely gone, that you are thinking more of the future than of the past. The hardest part when you are "in it" is recognizing that there is a light at the end of the tunnel. You have a bright future out there if you open yourself up to it.

You have the strength to get through this, never doubt that. It will get easier.


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DejaVu6 Offline OP
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Thank you Joseph and Davide.

I know that I will get through this. No matter what has happened to me in my life, I have always managed to take the high road and act in ways that are consistent with my core values. My H is testing that to the max, for sure. I have already had lot of better moments, hours and days so I know they will come again. I felt better last night and again this morning. I also am fully aware that there are many people out there who have it worse than me... many of whom post on this board. I am blessed. There are lots of people in my corner rooting for me. My H used to be one of those people but he hasn’t been for years and I need to accept that. For all intent and purposes, that H has been dead for years. Now I am just dealing with his ghost.

I don’t know about finding love again. This experience has really shaken my confidence in my ability to judge someone’s character and I am worried about potentially exposing my kids to someone who will ultimately hurt me and/or them. Don’t know if I can bring myself to trust someone again.

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Originally Posted by Joseph9
You deserve someone that wants to be with you. I rediscovered myself, learned and accepted my contributions to the failure of the marriage, and realized that I am a whole person that can be happy alone.

1 step at a time, 1 second at a time, 1 minute at a time. Try to stay present in the moment.


^^^^^^This. I have realized this recently, and the feeling is stronger and stronger all the time. I am truly enjoying living my life and doing the things I like to do and connecting with nice people. I have no plans to look for anyone now, and I find I don't need it. While I still have hopes that one day H will want to heal, I'm not counting on it. It was only after diving into intense self-reflection that I started living for myself and stopped worrying what H is doing. Those thoughts are becoming more fleeting.

Originally Posted by DejaVu6
I don’t know about finding love again. This experience has really shaken my confidence in my ability to judge someone’s character and I am worried about potentially exposing my kids to someone who will ultimately hurt me and/or them. Don’t know if I can bring myself to trust someone again.


Finding love again I believe should be put on the back burner for some time to come, and not worth wasting energy pondering it at this time. As for the trust, yes, I think this will be the most difficult this for me too. The singles in my age group (50s) will have their own baggage and their own spin on it. If I do decide to find another partner some day, I will be very, very choosy. But, the one thing about becoming a whole, happy person for yourself, you find you don't necessarily need someone else to live a fulfilling life. That's the place I want to be.


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Think of your hope as I little burning pilot light tucked all away in the back of your heart. Time and distance is your best friend and what you need to heal. Eventually your emotions will subside and you will begin to move forward with your life. Stay present in your thoughts and avoid the rearview mirror.

Finding love again I know is hard to comprehend at this juncture, I couldn’t imagine it either early on. Just know your feelings will change. My life is complete without a partner but I do miss the things that a female adds to my life. I am currently dating however I have not dated anyone serious. I feel better equipped though this time around.

Be patient and kind to yourself. Buy some new clothes, hit the gym, get your hair done.....do things that make you feel good and confident about yourself.


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Hey DV -

My heart breaks whenever I read your posts. The pain, the confusion, the anger and the love you express is my pain, confusion and anger. I think that's why we're all rooting for you ... because you are who we are [were]. I've said this before, as have others, it does get easier and its not about finding love again, it's about finding you again.

Originally Posted by DejaVu6
Just got a rather pleasant logistics-type text from my H starting with "Happy Friday Afternoon :)" and ending with "Hope your clients are treating you well. :)" Why does my heart ache so much when I get these? He is just so d*mn happy while he is breaking our family apart. I mean, what is up with all these smiley faces? Does he just live in a completely different world than me?


There's those emoji's again. I still f'g hate them. But, guess what? I now use them in my texts to him. They upset me because I thought (and still think) it diminished emotions - emotions which were real and deserve more than a stupid sad face (when we've been discussing booking an appointment with the MC). But, now that my emotions are a little more level, I put them in texts to him. And I know that he probably hates them "Thanks, that helps a lot - have a great day [smiley face] [thumbs up]" after he has told me that it's ok to leave my car at his flat over night because I've had a drink.

Originally Posted by DejaVu6
I miss him like crazy and he is perfectly content without me. How can he not miss me? I was his BEST friend for years. We have been through so much together and shared so many good times before he became the person he is now. Sometimes I think it would be so much easier if he had just died instead of this. Isn't that ridiculous? Man do I wish I had his talent for leaving people. It really is amazing how easily he seems to do it.


Would it be better if he cried and told you how much he missed you but was still resolute in his decision to leave, or if his texts were cold and abrupt or worse, if they were rude and insulting. What type of texts from your H would not hurt you right now ??

Hard as this is going to be to take, your H does not want to be with you. He might do so in the future, but not right now. Your H is trying to push through a separation without hurting you or causing a scene. So, he pretends that everything is rosy.

Think about the tool "detachment". They use this tool too (for different reasons). We use it to protect ourselves. They need to hold back their emotions too because they fear that if they let go, then they will lose their courage. I don't know if your H misses you or not (I don't know if my H misses me or not) but I know that he did and I know that the separation for him, like for you, was like losing a limb. He may have learned to live without that limb but I can guarantee that at some point, he missed it.

Originally Posted by DejaVu6
So I feel like I am backsliding a bit here. [You think Captain Obvious?] This week has been one of my saddest yet and I've had some pretty bad weeks. I keep telling myself this is just the pain of my heart preparing to finally let go... once and for all. And then there is the fear of being alone for the rest of my life. And then also the fear of meeting someone who seems great and then falling for him only to find out he is as messed up as my H or even worse. I'm not sure I could take going through this again. It is the WORST pain I have EVER felt and sometimes it seems like it is never going to end.


You will not be alone if you find you. Stupid as the cliché is, I truly believe there is a difference between being lonely and being alone. I am alone a lot but I am not lonely. Once you get to that point, then the fear of being alone goes away. Look, it is lovely being with someone. But, if you aren't complete, then isn't the other person just a warm prop.

... having said that ... you will not be alone. It is a big world with lots and lots of people ... and one of them (if not more) is (are) waiting for you. In the meantime, try and enjoy your life. The right person will come along when you're ready.

Be strong DV. We are here for you.

Now, stop spinning, get a glass of wine or a cup of tea, put on your favorite TV program (something good and soppy or funny and a little ridiculous) and switch off for a bit.


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Originally Posted by FlySolo

Now, stop spinning, get a glass of wine or a cup of tea, put on your favorite TV program (something good and soppy or funny and a little ridiculous) and switch off for a bit.


I've been binging ATHF (Aqua Teen Hunger Force) now. I forgot how stupid (and hilarious) that show is.

DV6, from my perspective, your H is putting those emojis in his texts as either a very mild temp check or an overachieving attempt to make you feel like he is happy.

He's not happy. He is just trying to push his way through and sweep the ugly parts under the rug in the hopes he can run away and forget about them.

That's never going to happen. It all catches up eventually. I have tried to run away from my problems for many years and they caught up to me in the form of BD. Once BD happened I had no choice but to identify and confront them. It's safe to say that it is something that I'm happy that I'm going through. My sitch is by no means over but can say that I am a better person than I was at BD. When people ask me how I'm doing now, I say that it's the happiest I have been in a long time. That's the truth. I still have my rough days and break down, but the good days are outnumbering the bad ones BY FAR.

You are getting better and stronger too. I hope you can see that. Keep fighting. You're doing great.

Last edited by Phoenix9; 01/20/19 12:19 AM.

1/6/18-BD OM1
2/18-W meets OM2
4/18-W intros D4 to OM2
5/18-“Romance ends"
7/18-DB start
7/18-IHS Ends
4/19-WW moves out
3/21-D filed

Formerly pain18

Rise.

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DejaVu6 Offline OP
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You guys are the best. Honestly...I never could have guessed when all this began that I would be lucky enough to find such an amazing group of wise and empathetic people who have become such good friends without ever having met them IRL. Without all of you, I’m pretty sure I would be a total mess still. Somehow knowing that you are all out there going through similar experiences helps so much. It is my greatest wish that each and every one of you will come through this happier and more fulfilled than you ever thought you could be. And when you do, I hope you will come back here and tell us about it so that others who are sure to follow in our footsteps will be inspired and comforted by your stories.

Joseph - It is sooo hard to imagine loving someone again so it is helpful to hear about your experiences. I hope you find someone really special who appreciates you and makes you want to risk being vulnerable again. I know she is out there somewhere.

FS - Thank you for continuing to be the voice of reason and reality. You are right. There is no good way for my H to text me. Just seeing his name pop up in my messages is enough to bring about those feelings ...it doesn’t really matter what he writes or how he writes it. And I know...he is trying not to hurt me. It is a pointless quest on his part... he has already hurt me more than anyone ever has or ever could. A thousand happy or sad emoticons won’t change that...but I do recognize and appreciate his intention as it does demonstrate some level of care for me.

You are also right...about needing to find me again. I was so focused on keeping things together when my H was “sick” that I completely ignored my own needs. If I felt sad or lonely, I would berate myself for being so selfish because at least I was spending my nights at home with my kids whereas my H was in the hospital going through painful medical treatments. My work was quite stressful at that time too so after awhile, I just went into survival mode and operated on auto pilot. I didn’t dare allow myself to consider if I was happy or not...my kids needed at least one functioning parent and by default, it had to be me. So focusing on me and my needs is not something that comes naturally. But I am working on it...

No spinning for me today. Got my nails done, did some shopping with my D11 before dropping her off at a birthday party, made dinner for my S11 and two of his friends and tried out a new recipe on my sister and BIL. It has been a good day.

Phoenix - I think you are also doing great. I know you struggle sometimes but it is obvious from your posts that you are on an important journey of self improvement. I have great hope that you and your W will find each other again - when you are both ready. BTW...I have never heard of ATHF. If the title of the show is any indication, it sounds a little quirky. I watch a lot of true crime shows. There are an inordinate number of victims that share my name. It is a bit disconcerting. laugh

It will be interesting to see if my H”s problems catch up to him. His first instinct always is to run. He has gone to counselling for short periods of time but I think he goes to feel better when he is really stressed... not necessarily to gain any insight into what it is within him that makes it okay to do something as outrageous as fake medical treatments for the better part of four years so he doesn’t have to go home to his family. I don’t think he asks himself the hard questions. Too afraid of the answers, I suspect. Two days after I found out about his double life, he collapsed into my arms crying and saying that he used to be a good person and he didn’t deserve me. I thought then that maybe, just maybe, he might have the motivation and courage to face himself. I was wrong.

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Hey DV

Will you tell me my future? Does it have a rich handsome man in it? Don't know? So how come you can predict your own future? None of us would have predicted our current situations, 2,3,5 years ago, so how do we know what the next 2,3 or 5 will bring? Live for today and greet each day with a "this will not define me" mantra and I will find some joy in every day and look for new experiences.

What could you have done to prevent this? Nothing. He is broken. He needs to embark on his own journey of self discovery. He very obviously knows he's 'troubled' and needs to make changes, hence his running away. Fixing the marriage, or his relationships wasn't going to solve the problem because he needs to fix himself first. I hope for his sake that he realises that removing himself from all the important people in his life is only a temporary fix, because it feels different. Who knows if he will? It's not your problem to own.

He may say that he tried an interim measure to solve his inner turmoil ie the 'fake illness' which he hoped would minimise the damage. It didn't so he went the whole hog. None of us know. Only him.

I reckon I'm a tiny tiny step ahead of you (because I recognise all that you are feeling as being very recent) My next stage was being able to look back and not cloud the past with my feelings of today. I can now tell myself ' there were good years; sh*t happens; there's no going back; I will go forwards with no regrets and believe those that tell me that the future is bright'

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When my Xw left I had the same thoughts. She will hit rock bottom, she will regret it, she will, she will, etc. etc. Eventually you won’t even care. You won’t care because if you do the work you will make your life so great that you won’t want them to be a part of it. You will out grow them if you put in the work because they are not doing the same.

I count my blessings every day that I have two beautiful girls, a great job that allowed me to keep our family home, friends, great parents, etc. Take stock in all the positive things that are in your life and try to not let one person, one relationship have that kind of power over you. There is no such thing as a soulmate. There are plenty of good ones and bad ones.

Own your part but don’t own his. Everyone makes contributions to a marriage ending and if it was a good marriage this would not have occurred. Time and distance will help you take stock and be able to reflect objectively once your emotions have subsided.


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M: 46, W: 45. D: 10. D: 8 (CUR)
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DejaVu6 Offline OP
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I know, I know... there is no way to predict the future. I am just writing out my worst fears. Somehow it helps to write them.. like I can think more realistically when I see them in black and white.

I don’t know if my H will hit rock bottom...likely not, as he has been living this way his whole adult life. He and I are very different. I have never been super comfortable being alone except for that brief period of time when I was living on my own before I met him. I think being an identical twin has something to do with that. I have been in a partnership my whole life...it is my comfort zone. My H, on the other hand, was raised an only child and his mom said he would spend hours by himself and be perfectly content. It was the same way in our marriage...he had many hobbies to fill up his time and having a family, I think, was a big adjustment that I think he resented deep down. So living on his own and being a part-time parent suits him really well. He rarely contacts the kids when they are with me. Truth be told, I don’t think he misses them. The fact that he chose to be away from them when he was pretending to go to hospital is a big indicator of that. However, he told himself it was me he was hiding from. I think that was easier for him to live with instead of admitting that he just hated the responsibility and pressure of kids, a home, and a wife.

I have many, many things to be grateful for. I have two amazing children, I have a good job with great colleagues who are very supportive, I have a a beautiful home with a view of the ocean, I have a supportive MIL who helps me take care of my kids, I have a twin who is always there for me and lots of friends who are there for me if I need them. I will be okay in the end. Missing him is tough. I had been missing him for a long time but this is different. Before I was comforted by the idea that he would eventually get better and we would repair the parts of our relationship that had been damaged. If only I had known how damaged it was. But... I AM moving forward even though my posts don’t always seem like it. I am still sad and I still wish things could be different but I am doing much, much better than I was a couple of months ago. In a couple months, I expect to be doing even better. I have discovered that this is a process that can’t be rushed and it really shouldn’t be. I need to go through all the steps so at the end I am truly healed.

(((HUGS))) to all.

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Originally Posted by Phoenix9
He's not happy. He is just trying to push his way through and sweep the ugly parts under the rug in the hopes he can run away and forget about them.
Agreed. And we've all done it too. But it's very hard for the LBS b/c we are in a low point, a time of need.

Originally Posted by DejaVu6
Two days after I found out about his double life, he collapsed into my arms crying and saying that he used to be a good person and he didn’t deserve me. I thought then that maybe, just maybe, he might have the motivation and courage to face himself. I was wrong.
I guess that's why we keep them at arm's length until they have fully committed to bettering themselves and the MR. He probably meant it too, but then the feelings left, or were replaced by stronger feelings, or all of those feelings were too much to deal with so he ran again. It's sad.

I like the part where you stated what you are grateful for. It always helps to know what we have and to appreciate it.


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DV6,

It is a great step that you are able to appreciate all the blessings that you have in your life. I have found that the more you look for things to be grateful for, the more you are rewarded with them. Focus on them, direct your energy to them, let them occupy your thoughts. They are what is important in your life. It is far too easy to direct our focus to things that don't deserve it, to things that don't feed our souls, to people who suck the life out of us.

One thing that you said does worry me, that you are not comfortable being alone. This process has taught me the importance of being able to sit with myself and quiet my mind. I had spent many years single before I met my wife and lived a very independent life, often not in a relationship. However, I was never comfortable enough with myself to sit with a quiet mind and just be. For me, that is an essential skill in order to clarify who I am and what I want, to recognize and love myself before I try to start a relationship with anyone else. Yoga and meditation have been vital in the self-healing process for me, much as prayer and religion help many others. I feel much more centered, in-control, and sure of myself.

hugs!


W 34 Me 42
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Originally Posted by DejaVu6
Just got a rather pleasant logistics-type text from my H starting with "Happy Friday Afternoon :)" and ending with "Hope your clients are treating you well. :)" Why does my heart ache so much when I get these? He is just so d*mn happy while he is breaking our family apart. I mean, what is up with all these smiley faces? Does he just live in a completely different world than me? I miss him like crazy and he is perfectly content without me. How can he not miss me? I was his BEST friend for years.


He does miss you. He has regrets and he's wondering if he's doing the right thing EVERY SINGLE DAY. There are a ton of hurting people in this world masquerading as happy people behind smiley faces and words of affirmation on social media, in text and in email. It's just a mask they put on, but what's underneath? Only they know. You can react in two ways- you can do things that make him think "oh yes I am doing the right thing" or you can pull back and resist the desire to reply or be a "friendly neighbor" when you do reply and make him continue wondering if he's doing the right thing.

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Sometimes I think it would be so much easier if he had just died instead of this. Isn't that ridiculous?


No, it would have been easier. I mean I don't actually wish death on anyone, but if he died you would have grieved and you would have happy memories and you would eventually learn to cope and move on. This is more like purgatory!

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And then there is the fear of being alone for the rest of my life.


Aaaahhhh, but why fear that? I think that was a large part of recovery for me, was finally coming to realize that I could be happy even if I am alone. If you can be happy alone then you might WANT someone else in your life but you don't NEED them. And that is a much healthier place to be in an R. My ex MIL has been alone since my FIL passed 10 years ago or so. She fills her days with activity. Volunteer work, working around her house or in the yard, knitting, talking to friends and relatives on the phone, planning future events. She's alone most of the time, but not lonely. It's all a state of mind.

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I knew years ago that I was losing him in my heart of hearts but I was just too scared to address it and maybe if I had when I first felt this way, we could have done something to fix it before he was so far gone.


I think most of us here were destined for this NO MATTER WHAT. I think this is more about something our spouses are going through then anything that we did or didn't do in the M. Think back to the earlier days of your M, if it was like mine then the things he complains about now would have been minor speed bumps then. He would have done ANYTHING to overcome obstacles to be with his love back then. Now? Not willing to lift a finger. That says more about him than you.


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I am an only child and while I am perfectly comfortable being alone I do miss the company of a women and the feminine qualities that they possess/provide.

I also do not contact my children during my off weeks. The only time I will see them or talk to them when it is my off week is if they have a school or sports activity. The same applies to my XW as well and we only live about 4 miles apart.

Now for some and my XW does fit the mold. For some it easier to run than work on their issues and look inward. For some being a part time parent, with part time responsibilities, more freedom, no constant marital or parental pressures is worth it. Some people get bored with life, get bored with the struggle, want something new and exciting to stimulate them. They don't however want to look inside themselves to determine why that is. So they cut ties and get out.

Own your part...the 10%, 20% or whatever it may be but it sounds like it is more about him than it was you. I know in my situation it is more about my XW than it is about me and what I did or didn't do. My XW had a lot of hobbies, interests, and friends to keep her busy. Her mind always had to occupied and stimulated with the next best thing. She always had to have a project. I just never thought our MR, our D, and her starting a new life would be one of those projects.


Married 14, Together 17
M: 44, W: 43, D: 8, D: 6
M: 46, W: 45. D: 10. D: 8 (CUR)
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Originally Posted by AnotherStander
He does miss you. He has regrets and he's wondering if he's doing the right thing EVERY SINGLE DAY. There are a ton of hurting people in this world masquerading as happy people behind smiley faces and words of affirmation on social media, in text and in email. It's just a mask they put on, but what's underneath? Only they know. You can react in two ways- you can do things that make him think "oh yes I am doing the right thing" or you can pull back and resist the desire to reply or be a "friendly neighbor" when you do reply and make him continue wondering if he's doing the right thing.


Thank you. This reminded me that my H has been wearing a mask for years so why should now be any different? I will do better with my replies. Usually I respond in kind (smiley face and thumbs up) but this week was just particularly tough. I think that once everything is divided up, my H will throw himself into his new life and there will be no looking back. I have seen him do it in the past. It is just something he is really, really good at. I, on the other hand, struggle with it. I need to take that part of me that was 100% committed to him and change it to being 100% committed to myself and to GAL.

Originally Posted by Davide
One thing that you said does worry me, that you are not comfortable being alone. This process has taught me the importance of being able to sit with myself and quiet my mind.


Originally Posted by AnotherStander
Aaaahhhh, but why fear that? I think that was a large part of recovery for me, was finally coming to realize that I could be happy even if I am alone. If you can be happy alone then you might WANT someone else in your life but you don't NEED them.


I did spend some time alone in my early and mid-30's and was happy but I am definitely someone who likes to be in the company of other people - in particular, a significant other. I do need to get better at it though. This weekend, I've been invited overnight to a friend's place. However, it would be me and three couples so I'm on the fence. I think I would probably have fun but spending some alone time at home is also somewhat appealing and would be good practice. Thoughts?

Originally Posted by AnotherStander
I think most of us here were destined for this NO MATTER WHAT. I think this is more about something our spouses are going through then anything that we did or didn't do in the M. Think back to the earlier days of your M, if it was like mine then the things he complains about now would have been minor speed bumps then. He would have done ANYTHING to overcome obstacles to be with his love back then. Now? Not willing to lift a finger. That says more about him than you.


Yes. The things my H complained about were minor speed bumps. To me, they were things that could be easily worked on and resolved but to him, insurmountable obstacles and irrefutable proof that he had married the wrong person.

Originally Posted by Joseph9
Some people get bored with life, get bored with the struggle, want something new and exciting to stimulate them. They don't however want to look inside themselves to determine why that is. So they cut ties and get out.

My XW had a lot of hobbies, interests, and friends to keep her busy. Her mind always had to occupied and stimulated with the next best thing. She always had to have a project. I just never thought our MR, our D, and her starting a new life would be one of those projects.


Yes...this is EXACTLY my H. I also think he has ADHD. When I read up on people with ADHD in marriages, it described my dynamic with my H perfectly. Also a marriage killer if you don't realize what is going on.

Thanks everyone for reading and responding to my thread. I find it so helpful. Still feeling pretty sad a lot of the time but I think that is normal when you are grieving. However, even in my sadness, there is hope...for a better DV6 and a better life... (((HUGS)))

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Originally Posted by DejaVu6
Originally Posted by AnotherStander
He does miss you. He has regrets and he's wondering if he's doing the right thing EVERY SINGLE DAY. There are a ton of hurting people in this world masquerading as happy people behind smiley faces and words of affirmation on social media, in text and in email. It's just a mask they put on, but what's underneath? Only they know. You can react in two ways- you can do things that make him think "oh yes I am doing the right thing" or you can pull back and resist the desire to reply or be a "friendly neighbor" when you do reply and make him continue wondering if he's doing the right thing.


Thank you. This reminded me that my H has been wearing a mask for years so why should now be any different? I will do better with my replies. Usually I respond in kind (smiley face and thumbs up) but this week was just particularly tough. I think that once everything is divided up, my H will throw himself into his new life and there will be no looking back. I have seen him do it in the past. It is just something he is really, really good at. I, on the other hand, struggle with it. I need to take that part of me that was 100% committed to him and change it to being 100% committed to myself and to GAL.

Originally Posted by Davide
One thing that you said does worry me, that you are not comfortable being alone. This process has taught me the importance of being able to sit with myself and quiet my mind.


Originally Posted by AnotherStander
Aaaahhhh, but why fear that? I think that was a large part of recovery for me, was finally coming to realize that I could be happy even if I am alone. If you can be happy alone then you might WANT someone else in your life but you don't NEED them.


I did spend some time alone in my early and mid-30's and was happy but I am definitely someone who likes to be in the company of other people - in particular, a significant other. I do need to get better at it though. This weekend, I've been invited overnight to a friend's place. However, it would be me and three couples so I'm on the fence. I think I would probably have fun but spending some alone time at home is also somewhat appealing and would be good practice. Thoughts?

Originally Posted by AnotherStander
I think most of us here were destined for this NO MATTER WHAT. I think this is more about something our spouses are going through then anything that we did or didn't do in the M. Think back to the earlier days of your M, if it was like mine then the things he complains about now would have been minor speed bumps then. He would have done ANYTHING to overcome obstacles to be with his love back then. Now? Not willing to lift a finger. That says more about him than you.


Yes. The things my H complained about were minor speed bumps. To me, they were things that could be easily worked on and resolved but to him, insurmountable obstacles and irrefutable proof that he had married the wrong person.

Originally Posted by Joseph9
Some people get bored with life, get bored with the struggle, want something new and exciting to stimulate them. They don't however want to look inside themselves to determine why that is. So they cut ties and get out.

My XW had a lot of hobbies, interests, and friends to keep her busy. Her mind always had to occupied and stimulated with the next best thing. She always had to have a project. I just never thought our MR, our D, and her starting a new life would be one of those projects.


Yes...this is EXACTLY my H. I also think he has ADHD. When I read up on people with ADHD in marriages, it described my dynamic with my H perfectly. Also a marriage killer if you don't realize what is going on.

Thanks everyone for reading and responding to my thread. I find it so helpful. Still feeling pretty sad a lot of the time but I think that is normal when you are grieving. However, even in my sadness, there is hope...for a better DV6 and a better life... (((HUGS)))


This also sounds a lot like my W. She is always wondering what else is out there ,what am I missing out on . I have said that many times now that I never would have thought she would have done that to our MR. It was usually her career that she would do it with, or where we lived.

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So I was just talking to a friend/colleague of mine about my sitch and had a sudden realization about my H and my efforts to make sense of everything. I was talking with her about how he never left home and that I think part of him running away is his need to do this and recreate what he probably should have done in his 20s. Anyway...I realized that it is likely even more than that.

I have always felt that my H had always felt ganged up on my his mom and I even though I tried very hard to stay out of the dynamic between the two of them and encouraged her to talk directly to him whenever possible. Anyway...her husband died suddenly when my H was 16 (he found him dead on his bdrm floor) and she never remarried or even dated after that. Being her only child, I think my H kind of assumed the role of the man in the house and his mom began to rely on him for a lot of things. So, in a sense, he was "married" to her as well as to wife #1 and me. Now it is hard enough for a guy with tons of hobbies, etc... to have one wife, let alone two. And I also recalled that when I asked him "why", he blurted out "I couldn't stand living with you and my mom any longer." Later on, he denied saying that but I think at that moment, he was exactly right. So he is FINALLY leaving home and to do it, he has to divorce himself from both of us.

Man..when I think of it that way, I think, "what a set up for me". Honestly, how could this have gone any other way when you factor in his R with his mom. And don't get me wrong, she is a wonderful woman but I remember he was significantly irritated by her for the latter half of our marriage. In hindsight, I probably should have validated his feelings a bit more than I did back then. Her constant presence irritated me at times too. But whenever it did, I just reminded myself of what a big help she is/was to us and let it go. I would remind my H as well but I don't think he let it go. I think he resented it and after awhile, his irritation with her just melded into his irritation with me and for all intent and purposes, we became the same person for him. He felt trapped by both of us. So...when I think about it this way, I kinda get what he is doing and it also explains why he can't be in the home for more than five minutes when it is just her there.

Anyway... I know that whether or not this is a big part of his leaving or not (and I firmly believe that it is), it doesn't change the reality but somehow knowing that it is not all about me makes it a bit easier to take.

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I remember the early days of trying to make sense of it all. Having no control over the situation and trying to pinpoint the exact reason(s) why it all happened. Replaying this, analyzing that, I should have said this, or if I only would have done that, etc. etc. etc. Knowing what I know about my XW. All the signs were there, depression, jacked up family life, no real father figure, but I was in love. Looking back, if I knew then what I knew now it wasn't the smartest choice. I wouldn't have my girls though so for that reason alone I wouldn't change a thing.


Married 14, Together 17
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M: 46, W: 45. D: 10. D: 8 (CUR)
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Hi,

That is an interesting theory, and from an outsiders perspective it does make sense. Maybe you could take it a step further, not only did he see his mom as a W, but perhaps he saw you as another mom. This can absolutely lead to a man feeling emasculated. I have seen it on the boards and in my own sitch. And even if the W is a fantastic mom -- to her kids and her H -- it is not what men usually want from a healthy M. In your case, it does make me wonder if this is also why he has chosen an OW with health problems and who requires care taking. It sounds like she relies on him for a lot. Maybe in his R with her, he feels important and valuable in that way. Some men are also intimated by women that are strong providers. This is of course all speculation.

Sadly, you may never know or fully understand any of it. I don't know how much it really behooves you to spend your energy trying to figure it all out. He is gone either way and focusing on him keeps you attached. It may feel better to accept that no, it is not all your fault. And yes, even if you were the perfect W, he most likely would have fled in the same way. These are mostly his issues. And as J9 says, there will come a point when you stop caring so much. I think this happens after detachment starts. The reason we emphasis so much GAL, it because it is a good means to detachment. I think you should do the overnight with your friends. I think the more you engage with friendships outside of your family, the better. It is great GAL stuff. You have to create good memories, even in a hard time.

I just went on a trip with my BFF to the mountains. We had taken a similar girls trip when I was separated from H. It was more energy to do these GAL things back then, but I am so glad I did. It allowed me to still live my life and have fun at a time that was otherwise filled with angst and negativity. Just talking about my sitch and focusing on the whys, really held me back in my progress. Sometimes we have to force ourselves away from that with actions (GAL) and trust the the emotional part (detachment) will follow. Have you gone back and read the threads by J9 and Maika? They are 2 good examples of people that came here in the beginning, followed the rules and really tried to push forward, and both had the success of healthy detachment. I personally think I would have suffered much less if I could have done a better job at that!

Blu


“Forgiveness liberates the soul. It removes fear. That is why it is such a powerful weapon.” – Nelson Mandela
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Originally Posted by BluWave
That is an interesting theory, and from an outsiders perspective it does make sense. Maybe you could take it a step further, not only did he see his mom as a W, but perhaps he saw you as another mom. This can absolutely lead to a man feeling emasculated. I have seen it on the boards and in my own sitch. And even if the W is a fantastic mom -- to her kids and her H -- it is not what men usually want from a healthy M.


I think there is a component of that as well. That is exactly the pattern that tends to develop with an ADHD spouse. Their inability to focus and their resulting forgetfulness tends to force their partner to start to become the "boss", so to speak. I know for sure it happened in our MR. If I wanted my H to do anything, I always had to ask and I would also have to remind him. It was a no-win situation...either I did everything myself and burned out OR I asked him to do something and he either resented me for asking because it wasn't on his priority list or he said "ok". Over time, I realized that when he said ok, I would usually have to remind him once or twice if I wanted to ensure it was done. Sometimes he was fine with it and actually grateful for the reminder whereas other times it made him mad (and I think emasculated him). If I didn't remind him and he forgot, he would feel badly about himself but then also project those bad feelings onto me and resent me for it anyway. I saw this time and time again in our MR and I just couldn't figure out how to change it because it seemed like no matter what I did, I was scr3wed.

Originally Posted by BluWave
In your case, it does make me wonder if this is also why he has chosen an OW with health problems and who requires care taking. It sounds like she relies on him for a lot. Maybe in his R with her, he feels important and valuable in that way.


Still don't know for sure if she is an OW or not but she does seem to rely on him for things and I do think he feels like he is important and valued. Her last partner was apparently an abusive a**hole so my H would look like a great guy next to him. I'm sure she has not been told what he has been up to for the last four years. Of course, I'm sure my H would spin it so he looked like he was escaping a terrible marriage. That's how he described his first marriage anyway.

Originally Posted by BluWave
Sadly, you may never know or fully understand any of it. I don't know how much it really behooves you to spend your energy trying to figure it all out. He is gone either way and focusing on him keeps you attached.


I know it doesn't seem like it because of what I post, but I'm spending way less energy on this than I did in the beginning. I've always been an analyzer...probably why I ended up in the profession that I am in. Thinking of the dynamics that contributed to my H's departure is actually helpful for me. Knowing that it isn't all about me and my failings as a wife makes it a bit easier to accept. Like a lot of the things that led to him leaving were in place before we even met and outside of my control.

Originally Posted by Joseph9
All the signs were there, depression, jacked up family life, no real father figure, but I was in love. Looking back, if I knew then what I know now it wasn't the smartest choice. I wouldn't have my girls though so for that reason alone I wouldn't change a thing.


Yes! I could have written that. There were many warning signs with my H. I just thought that our love for each other would somehow make us immune. But I have two amazing children that I wouldn't have otherwise so no regrets.

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Originally Posted by DejaVu6


I think there is a component of that as well. That is exactly the pattern that tends to develop with an ADHD spouse. Their inability to focus and their resulting forgetfulness tends to force their partner to start to become the "boss", so to speak. I know for sure it happened in our MR. If I wanted my H to do anything, I always had to ask and I would also have to remind him. It was a no-win situation...either I did everything myself and burned out OR I asked him to do something and he either resented me for asking because it wasn't on his priority list or he said "ok". Over time, I realized that when he said ok, I would usually have to remind him once or twice if I wanted to ensure it was done. Sometimes he was fine with it and actually grateful for the reminder whereas other times it made him mad (and I think emasculated him). If I didn't remind him and he forgot, he would feel badly about himself but then also project those bad feelings onto me and resent me for it anyway. I saw this time and time again in our MR and I just couldn't figure out how to change it because it seemed like no matter what I did, I was scr3wed.


(((DejaVu6)))

I see a lot of myself / my MR in this paragraph. One of the things W wanted me to work on was my forgetfulness, and she would complain that I never listened or that my follow-through was lacking.

What’s interesting is that SHE IS THE ONE who is ADD / ADHD (she has the diagnosis and takes medication for it)—I don’t have a diagnosis, though I’m sure I probably have at least some of those tendencies. What’s flipped is that in our MR, she’s the one who wants out.

She would remind me of things, and sometimes I would be ‘ok thanks,’ or sometimes I would get angry / resentful about it. But a lot of times I would feel a bit emasculated by her, too—I’d try to work on something / fix something / do something, and she would want to take control of it, which I didn’t like. Of course, I didn’t say a whole lot (sometimes I would get demonstratively angry / frustrated with whatever it is, but what I would periodically try to tell her is that I need some time / space to work on this and tinker with it)—but she also wouldn’t be interested in giving me that time and space. To be fair, that whole emasculation dynamic is something that I’ve never liked and I tolerated it for much too long, and I’m trying to reverse the dynamic and my ‘toleration’ of it as best as I can. I also don’t want that in MR 2.0, or in the event that I get with someone else down the road.

Especially over the last few months (over the last year, probably, since ILYBINILWY BD), I’ve thought I’ve become better about any sort of forgetfulness (but like a typical WAS, she says it’s not good enough). I’m rather absent-minded / clumsy / spacey—always kinda been that way, and to be fair I was like this when she dated and married me—so this shouldn’t have exactly been a shock. I mean, I still forget stuff every now and then and I do stupid things (like tonight—I forgot to rinse OS’ hair in the bath—I go to dry him off, and I notice the soap still there, so we go back and rinse it off briefly, and W has this look and voice tone of ‘what the F is wrong with you how could you not notice?’), but I’ve had to learn to embrace and cope with my focus and forgetfulness. As well, when she wants to ‘take control,’ I’ve been trying to stand up for myself more recently (‘please let me try to do this’) and if it doesn’t work out for me, then I go ask her and not be all mad / resentful about it.


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My H and I would joke about his ADHD personality. I called him 86% guy. Whatever project he was doing, he would almost always finish it to about 86% and then move onto something else. Funny enough...my H has been really reliable since he moved out and I haven’t had to remind him of much. The one or two times I did, he thanked me. I bet when he buys a house, he will have no problem taking care of it too. He loathed to do anything at our home but I think when he has something that is just his and he has no one else to do it for him, he will step up. Irony at its best.

Sorry to hear about the dynamics in your MR. It is so easy to get in that kind of pattern. My H came to rely on my reminders and I was aware that he also resented me for them at times. I tried very hard not to be blaming or shaming but it often didn’t seem to matter.

If you and your W ever do try to create a MR 2.0, it is going to be important that you let her know how you feel fwithout blaming her. i.e. When you tell me ________ in that way, I feel ________. Sometimes we think we’re communicating and we really aren’t. Looking back, my H and I did not communicate well about our feelings. I think there were a lot of failed attempts at mind reading. Hopefully you and your W get a chance to do things differently.

(((HUGS)))

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My H had the girls overnight two days after he moved out. He sent me pictures of them with face masks on and said they were playing board games. When I went round to pick them up in the morning he had made them pancakes and bought strawberries and bananas to have with it. He was sitting on the floor in the living room braising D9s hair. He had given them both baths the night before and washed their hair. In all the years we had been together he had never made them breakfast, had not been involved in the bath routine since they were babies and i sis me even know he knew how to braid hair. He almost certainly never participated in games nights. 10 months later he is still like this ... the pancakes have gone by the wayside and the board games have given way to movie nights but overall he is attentive and present with the girls. His own 180 maybe but I think it has more to do with the fact that I am not around to carry the load. I was there, so he took advantage and I suspect a small part of him felt guilty for it. But he is not a man to take responsibility ... so the guilt (internal) manifested as resentment (external). I became a door mat (to keep the peace) and he resented me for it.

Weird how the mind works.

Anyway, sorry for hijacking. Just got me thinking is all ...

Have a great day DV.


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Originally Posted by DejaVu6
My H and I would joke about his ADHD personality. I called him 86% guy. Whatever project he was doing, he would almost always finish it to about 86% and then move onto something else.


I have a friend whose W says the same thing about him except it's 90%, LOL! She says "he is sooooo good at the first 90% of any project, I mean absolutely amazing, but that last 10%..." He just sits there laughing and nodding and says "yes it's true!" I kind of have those leanings, I really have to force myself to stick with it until it's done. Other projects try to lure me away but I know if I start them I'll never finish the one at hand. So I do finish my projects but it takes a lot of discipline to do that last 10%!


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DV & FS - I am your H. Bo, I am you. I'm the forgetful one, the one that needed reminding, the one who never took ownership until W asked me 10 times. And then sometimes I was grateful for the reminder, and sometimes I was just so frustrated at not being treated like an adult.

On my own, I'm better. It's true, I have different priorities on my own that when it was W&I. She cared about a clean house - not obsessively clean, but dishes done every day, not letting clean laundry sit in the dryer. I have different priorities, and I always have.

I don't know what the answer would have been for my own behaviors to change in this. I'm trying now on my own, but it's just not my way of being. But when you're the only adult - you just do it. You take care of your life.

Originally Posted by FlySolo
His own 180 maybe but I think it has more to do with the fact that I am not around to carry the load.
This is it, I think FS. If there's one person who is always going to handle it - the forgetful spouse comes to rely on them. And feel unneeded. Or that we're doing it wrong. Letting the other person do things their own way and in their own time is so important.

An interesting discussion. DV, I do think this is related to how your H feels. Though humans are social creatures, we all have this internal need to just stand on our own two feet, not be coddled, and show the world we're capable. Maybe that's what he's really doing in some bass-ackwards way.

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FS - That is exactly my H. He was completely checked out with the day-to-day childcare other than bathing them once in awhile when he was home. He mostly worked on his hobbies. Now that he is on his own, he is completely dialed in when he has them. It is great for them but is definitely a bit tough to take for me. Irritating that he is being the dad I always wanted him to be now that we aren’t together. I wonder if his place is tidy or if he mows the lawn. When he was home, he would sometimes do the dishes but that is about it.

Yail - I had relaxed on expectations the last few years as I came to think of it in that way... that it just wasn’t his priority and not something he was doing on purpose. My H did rely on me and also resented me for it because I do think he felt unneeded or worse, unappreciated. And that he was doing things wrong. Even if I didn’t say anything, he was always looking for signs that I was disapproving. I think he also always felt like I was comparing him to my dad internally. My dad was one in a million. An wonderful dad and a great husband. My mom rarely had to ask him to do anything. He would just notice what needed to be done and do it. He built our family home himself and kept it in pristine condition. If something needed fixing, he fixed it. He was an amazing man and taken from this world far too soon. I wish my H had known him. He would have loved him and learned a lot from him. My sister ran into an old family friend last year who told her that whenever he has a problem or decision to make, he still asks himself what my dad would do.

I do think that showing the world, and himself, that he can stand on his own two feet is part of this. I can’t be upset with him for that. It is something we all need to feel.

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Journaling...

Today was a good day. My daughter texted me this afternoon that she was having her last volleyball game of the season. I didn’t have a lot going on at work so I decided to sneak away and surprise her. I thought briefly about not going in case my H was there but then I decided making her happy was more important than avoiding my H. Anyway... it was a needless worry as he wasn’t there. I don’t think he knew about it because it was a last minute make-up game. The look on my daughter’s face when I got there was awesome!!! She was so happy. Told me how excited she was to see me and must have told me 100 times on the drive home how much she loves me...lol. How can I hear that and NOT have a good day? She asked me if it would be okay if she joined basketball. Are you kidding me??? That was my sport!! Spent my summers at basketball camp and played during my undergrad too. So...lots of plans. Told her we would get a basketball and I will teach her what she needs to know. So excited!! Now if only I could get my son interested in something besides video games...

Been doing some self reflection today. It feels like I am moving forward on detachment. I think not having much contact with my H is helping with that. I saw him briefly from afar this morning for about one minute when he was dropping off our kids. The last time we saw each other for any longer than that was a week ago Sunday. Ten days and counting. I’m also making a concerted effort not to text him unless it is absolutely necessary or he initiates a text that requires a response. January 14th was the last time I sent him a text first and that was a brief message letting him know that all of our apple devices were still connected to his email and that I would need his help to figure out how to change that. I still have feelings of loss and moments when I want to talk to him but those eventually pass. I’m thinking of it as an addiction and forcing myself to go cold turkey. [Where does that expression come from anyway?] I still miss him every day but it is a feeling I am learning to live with.

Time to make my kids some dinner. Love and (((HUGS))) to you all!!!

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Hello DV

That sounded like a really good day. A volleyball game, a happy daughter, and upcoming basketball.

Good for you deciding to not worry about avoiding your H.

I like your view on detachment and how you are working towards it. Really nice progress, good job.

DnJ


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I like the detachment progress, that's huge. You know that the negative emotions will pass and you handle them until they do. Perfect.

I think learning to live with that feeling of missing him is amazing. It will get easier and easier and easier and then one day you will wake up thinking about breakfast or coffee and not him. And you'll think to yourself, why did I let him occupy so much of my headspace.


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DV6...love your update! Keep putting all your love in your kids and enjoying all the time you can with them. Great help to know that pure genuine love exists in this world!

keep doing what you're doing detach wise. there's a song lyric i've used before that I like "that clock on the wall with cure it all, even though that ain't how it seems"...you will continue to get better and better...just have to make it through...

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Yep, the lighthouse is always there. So that light of love is everywhere.

(((DjV)))


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Originally Posted by DejaVu6
...but then I decided making her happy was more important than avoiding my H.


YES!!! And hopefully we are clear on this point around here, but "going dark" should not extend to skipping any kid functions just because the spouse might be there. No matter how much it hurts to see them we should by all means always support our kids in every way, and it's especially important to do so in the aftermath of BD! So well done smile


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DV6,

Let me just add my voice to the choir -- congrats on a great day! It is in appreciating those moments, feeling that gratitude, that we open our hearts and begin to look towards the future with optimism. Seek out those moments and cherish them!

hugs,


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D - That was a good update. Eventually the good days will start to out number the bad. Remember to stay in the present and try to not look in the rearview mirror.


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Thanks everyone. It is nice to feel like I am moving a bit. Big challenge coming up on Friday. It is my D11's belt test for TKD and both of us will be there. I am determined not to let it set me back.

So last night, I started listening to the audio book of No More Mr Nice Guy on YouTube. I keep seeing it mentioned on here so thought I would check it out. OMG!!! That is my H to a tee!!! The dishonesty, fear of conflict, covert contracts, passive aggressiveness (being unavailable, being late, forgetfulness, withholding affection, etc...), resentment of partner, having the critical abandoning dad and trying NOT to be like him (yet being more like him than he cares to admit) and looking for approval and validation from others and always feeling like I was never happy with him no matter what I did. The only thing that didn't seem to fit at first was the needy mom but then I thought...no, his mom isn't outwardly needy in that respect but she did rely on him to be the man of the house in a lot of ways. Still does. Wow...if only I had seen this book a few years ago. I thought briefly about sending it to my H but thought better of it as it would look like pursuit and, even more so, it is not my responsibility to try to fix him. What an eye opener though.

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Good Morning DV

What level of belt is daughter testing for?

I am sure you’re one proud mom.

Hang on to that, and be there for your daughter.

It is ok to put your feelings/anger regarding H on pause for a bit; to enjoy the TKD and your daughter’s hard work.

Later, once home, you can vent - if you need, you might be surprised just how fleeting “he” is.

Have a great day DV.

DnJ


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Morning DnJ.

My daughter is just starting out. The place she goes to has more levels to achieve than most. This will be her third best test. Not sure what belt. She has a yellow belt so maybe a green stripe or something like that. It’s confusing. When I used to go, we just tested for the next colour and there weren’t stripes. I don’t think seeing my H will be much of a problem. I am in a different place than i was at her last test when this was all pretty new.

So I have decided not to go out of town this weekend. There are a couple reasons for it. I don’t really want to hang out with a bunch of couples and feel like the odd woman out. Also, my sister and her H are going and I think I need to cultivate more friendships outside of my R with them. They are planning to go to Croatia for a couple months at the end of this year so I need to get used to them not being around. Yesterday a friend of mine texted me to see if I have plans for Saturday night. I didn’t so we made plans to have dinner at my place and then go out somewhere for a drink. I also invited that woman I met at the beginning of December. She works out of town but said if she was back by then, she will definitely join us. I may invite a fourth friend as well.

MIlestone moment... woke up this morning and my H was not the first thing I thought of... maybe the third. Progress. smile

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Yowsas! Are real Karate Kid! Do you need a permit for a lethal child like that?

Originally Posted by DejaVu6
Also, my sister and her H are going and I think I need to cultivate more friendships outside of my R with them.
Good.

Saturday sounds like a great time, I'm sure there will be some men out looking at your girls group with interested eyes! Enjoy it!

Originally Posted by DejaVu6
MIlestone moment... woke up this morning and my H was not the first thing I thought of... maybe the third. Progress. smile
BIG progress! Awesome! Keep doing what works!


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LOL... just saw an ad for a new show on ID tv called “Someone You Thought You Knew”. A quote on there was “You only know someone as well as they allow you to know them.” Hmmmm... wonder if I can sell them my story? wink

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Hi DV

I know what you mean about confusing levels.

Swimming is the same. ** Back in my day, it was straight forward and there were fewer levels with names that made sense. Now there is like what 97 levels with crazy names. No wonder no one knows what their doing. When I was kids, things were different, things were hard, walked to school uphill, both ways, well I never had... grumble grumble... ** ha ha ha. smile smile Just kidding. What the heck, did my coffee go bad? Somebody’s spiked my coffee.

I like your choice about the weekend, it is the one I would choose. GAL doesn’t necessarily mean you have to go out.

Look at you! H is not first on your mind when you wake up (withdrawl is getting better). That is some serious progress there. How are you sleeping? Nice full nights? Restful?

Keep doing what you’re doing.

Is your heading still compassion and forgiveness?

DnJ


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Thanks for stopping in DnJ.

Totally agree about the swimming too. My son refuses to go but my daughter is a bit of a fish. Loves the water like her dad and I.

Originally Posted by DnJ
I like your choice about the weekend, it is the one I would choose. GAL doesn’t necessarily mean you have to go out.


Thanks. I have even kicked it up a notch and invited two other women. Neither of them are much like me but both of them are single, outgoing, a bit quirky and fantastic for my ego as they have both told me I am "gorgeous" and will have no problem finding someone new. I don't even care if they are right. I just like that they believe they are and I could use all of the positivity that I can get. Anyway...in the past, I wouldn't have made plans with other women for fear that it would interfere with plans I might have with H in case he didn't have to go to his "treatment". So mostly I was home alone all of the time. Deep down I have always wanted to have more women friends so I am kind of excited. I hope at least one of them can make it this weekend.

Originally Posted by DnJ
Look at you! H is not first on your mind when you wake up (withdrawl is getting better). That is some serious progress there. How are you sleeping? Nice full nights? Restful?


I still think of him every morning but my thoughts are not connected to overwhelming sadness anymore. Just a twinge of loss and regret (for things I could have done differently in my MR) but then I get on with my day. I am still only getting about six hours a night (I'm a night owl) but they are a solid six hours and on weekends I get about eight. So...feeling much, much better.

Originally Posted by DnJ
Is your heading still compassion and forgiveness?


Funny you should ask that. This morning I had a pleasant text exchange with my H. My daughter had texted him about a sleepover invite she had for tomorrow to see if he would let her go. He said ok and then she came into my room to ask about pick up and drop off times. In the past, I would have texted the mom and organized everything but this time, I just texted her contact info to him. He thanked me and then let me know our D's belt test is at 4:00 today instead of the usual 6:30. I thanked him for the heads up as I would have shown up at 6:30 and both me and my D would have been disappointed. He also texted me some info about the upcoming schedule that was nice to see. He is not relying on me to tell him where and when anymore.. he is doing it himself and feeling good about it, I think. I am too. It is nice to not have to be the one who keeps all of the balls in the air all of the time. Ironic that my H had to leave to start taking an active role in his kids' lives. Sigh... anyway... water under the bridge at this point.

So today I made a decision and it has taken me a long time to truly get there. Today I forgave my H. As CRAZY as his actions have been over the last four years, and they were CRAZY, I have come to understand that his primary reason for doing it was not because he is an evil person and wished to do me harm but because, in his own twisted sense of logic, he didn't want to hurt me. I know...sounds ridiculous given how things played out. But looking back on the things he said to me in the beginning, I have come to believe that he really did think he was trying. I think he was running away and, at the same time, hoping that he would wake up one day and feel differently so he could stop running and be my husband again without me finding out about everything. The day after I found out and he took me to his place, I remember asking him on the drive home about what his plan was and what he thought was going to happen. He tried really hard to answer me but his thoughts were as jumbled as his emotions. All he could say is that he didn't know and that he thought he could just somehow make it better. I dismissed it at the time but honestly, I really think that is what he was doing. Trying to resolve whatever he was going through and hoping that he wouldn't have to hurt me to do it. So as misguided and bizarre as his actions were, I can't really be angry with him about his intentions.

I told my H a while back that I could never be his friend... and I meant it at the time. He told me that he understood but that he could always hope that I would change my mind. While I don't ever picture us sharing a beer and talking about our love lives, I do think there might be opportunities in our future for spending time with our kids together and sharing in their big moments. So...that is my goal and today is a good day to start working towards it with both of us going to our D's belt test.

So...yes...compassion and forgiveness is still my heading and today I really feel that I am truly, truly getting there. Gosh it feels good. smile

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New THEME SONG people... and it's a great one!!! "Living in the Moment" by Katharine McPhee (The Book Club soundtrack). Listen to it!! It will put a smile on your face and a spring in your step. Love and (((HUGS))) to you all!!!

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DV

Awesome post!

Doesn’t sound ridiculous at all.

Love, vengeance, envy, joy, etc... all start with a choice - so does forgiveness. A willingness to work towards it, and in time it will be fully achieved.

Make sure you work on forgiving yourself while you’re at it. Remember there will be good days and bad days, days of forgiveness and days of not so much. Don’t worry, look long term.

Forgiveness returns so much to the one who forgives. It truly is for you.

You’ve chosen a great path. Keep walking it DV.

DnJ


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DnJ...

That is so strange that you would tell me to work on forgiving myself because you know what, I realized today that part of my not being able to forgive my H was because I hadn’t yet forgiven myself. So I made a choice to do that too. And that made forgiving him 100X easier.

Just got back from my D’s belt test. Last test was very close to BD and I remember sitting next to my H and feeling sick the whole time...and sad. Today was SO DIFFERENT. I didn’t feel sick at all or even bothered TBH. I was happy to see him. Afterwards we went back to my house and he got the kids’ stuff gathered up. He told me about a show that he has been wanting to tell me I should watch and told him about NMMNG. Said I thought he would get something out of reading it but it was up to him. Anyway...he left pretty quickly with the kids and I said “bye” to them and when I closed the door, I WAS JUST FINE!!! No tears. No sadness. Just me in my beautiful QUIET home with a pink/blue sunset view of the ocean. I AM BLESSED!!!

You told me that I could get to detachment with love and compassion and I’m not sure I’m completely there yet because I’ve had setbacks before BUT this feels like the closest I have gotten since all of this started. I AM OK. I love my H...probably always will...but I don’t feel scared or alone. I have so much to be thankful for...my beautiful kids, my family, my career which allows me to help other people, a bunch of old and new friends, a newfound energy and appreciation for life and a sense of excitement at what might be ahead of me... notice I said “what” and not “who”. I’m done with that. I’m not done with the idea of being in a loving relationship but I am done with the idea that in order for me to be happy, I NEED someone else. I don’t. I am just fine on my own and as I’m writing this, I can’t tell you how happy I am to be feeling this way. Like I am enough. For so many years I have been unhappy with myself and feeling like I was just coasting through life waiting for my H to come home and make me happy. Even if he had come home and none of this had happened, he still would not have MADE me happy. Only I can do that and I KNOW that now.

Anyway... gotta run. I’ve got things to do. Looking forward to my girls’ night tomorrow. It’s gonna be fun.

Love and (((HUGS))) to all of you out there in DB land!!! xoxoxoxo

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Now that is gorgeous DV! Looking great!


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Positive self talk and affirmations are great! Continue to stay present in the moment. Be kind to yourself when you cycle, it's ok!


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Wonderful DV. Beautiful and inspiring.


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Originally Posted by DejaVu6
Her last partner was apparently an abusive a**hole so my H would look like a great guy next to him.


Quote
course, I'm sure my H would spin it so he looked like he was escaping a terrible marriage. That's how he described his first marriage anyway.


The re-writing of history could apply to both.

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That's a wonderful update DV. I am a bit jealous of that beautiful sunset. It is cold and miserable over here.

Remember, one day at a time. Good and bad days. One day you'll realise the good days far outweigh the bad.


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The sunsets can be stunning. I get a better view of the sunrise though. Never gets old. I’m waiting for winter to arrive. So far, daytime temperatures are averaging around 9 or 10 degrees. February tends to be the worst month. Have some plans for my non-kid weekends in February. A trip to the States with my sister and then my bf from university is coming to visit me. She didn’t know my H until we got married but ironically, her little brother knew him. They were in the same grad class. Small world. She had no idea we had split and was pretty shocked. She is a child of divorce. Not a fan although I think her stepdad was a much nicer person than her dad.

My ladies night didn’t turn out quite the way I planned. My one friend’s flight back from the mainland got cancelled so she didn’t make it back in time. My other friend worked late and was too tired. So it was just me and the friend I originally invited. She and I just sat around and ate some apples and had a couple of drinks. I don’t know her super well so it was a great chance to get to know her. All in all... a great night. I wasn’t too disappointed about not making it out to the pub. My goal for this coming year is to cultivate more friendships with other women so this was a good start.

My kids are back home. It is nice to have them running around the house again. My H dropped them off and then was gone in five minutes. He was pleasant, as always, but uncomfortable. A twinge of sadness when he left... and loss. Things could have been different...but they’re not and I have accepted it. My D and I are just hanging out. She told me she is happy her dad is being a good dad now. She commented that he didn’t used to be around much before. Yes...a silver lining in this cloud... my kids have their dad back. I am grateful for that.

Day off tomorrow. Getting my hair done and then taking my kids to the dentist for teeth cleaning. Pool league at 7 p.m. Going to be a good day. smile

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Mine were awkward and uncomfortable early on also. Trust me it gets much easier. Keep it strictly business no small talk and don’t linger. Your doing good!


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Good day today. Got my hair cut and coloured, walked my dog and took my kids to the dentist. No cavities!! Yay!! I think they have inherited their dad’s cavity-proof teeth instead of my cavity-prone ones. You always hope your kids will get the best of both of you. So far so good.

My H came to get them about a half hour ago. Today was the first time since all of this started that felt natural and easy. We joked with each other and shared a laugh. I was GENUINELY upbeat and feel like I am as close to dropping the rope as I have ever been. I would say that I have except I have had setbacks before. If I am still feeling this way a few weeks from now, I will be more confident but today, I just feel really good. And I think my H noticed. He was more comfortable than he has been and shortly after they left, he texted me to ask me for a recipe and made a joke about our son’s diet that I laughed at. I don’t think he would have texted me if he had felt tension between us. A good sign for future coparenting, I think.

Tomorrow I have a birthday dinner to go to at my favourite Greek restaurant. Looking forward to it!!

Hope all of you in DB land are having or had (depending on your time zone) a good day. (((HUGS))) to all.

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D,

I am so glad to read these wonderful and positive updates! You are really turning a huge corner. Yes, you will absolutely be fine without him. You have known this but are forcing it to the forefront of your brain by processing and doing the hard work.

You will continue to have good days, and some bad days, but as time goes on, those bad days will become further and few between!

I love what you said about not needing someone or an R to make us happy. I think we all need to accept and remind ourselves often that yes, happiness does ALWAYS come from within. We just need to use those tools we have and sharpen them often. Bravo!

Blu


“Forgiveness liberates the soul. It removes fear. That is why it is such a powerful weapon.” – Nelson Mandela
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DV! Great to see you posting your progress. Take it one day at a time, and each day do something for yourself and your kids. Focus on that! That's what life is about, right? Being OK, and helping your kids be OK! They really go hand in hand too. Great idea going to the salon! I bet you look fantastic!

If you happen to hit any speed bumps, don't worry. Soon you will be able to navigate those obstacles and glide over those speed bumps instead of smacking them full force. Nothing but smoother roads ahead of you!!!!!!


Save yourself. Nobody is coming!
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Kind of a tough night but not devastatingly so. My H came over to talk about a couple sticking points in our SA. The one that we were most stuck on is the date of our separation. He says May 1st is when he moved out (in his mind) and I, of course, disagree because I didn’t realize he was gone until the middle of September. Anyway, I told him I could not agree to support a lie and he got really upset saying that we would just start from scratch then in terms of what he was offering me. He stormed out saying we had nothing to talk about. I followed him out and I asked him if he was trying to blackmail me into agreeing to the date. He said no but that he just wants everything to be done and be divorced before the summer and finally admitted it is because he wants to date. He accused me of trying to hang onto him and I told him I was just trying to give myself some adjustment time.

Anyway...long story short, we ended up talking for quite awhile. He came back inside and we talked a bit more. He said there are a lot of things that he would like to apologize to me for but that I wouldn’t let him because I had told him that sorry doesn’t mean anything coming from him. I asked him if there are anymore lies that I need to know about and he said a decisive no. So I asked him if I went over to his place and introduced myself to his “roommate”, that would be okay. He told me to go right ahead and that it was not a problem at all. I told him the whole thing is just weird and he said it isn’t because of the rental market in town and that I should go on Craig’s List and see for myself. He’s not wrong there. My sister and I rented out a tiny bachelor suite in a rental we own for $650 a month. We had 75 applicants in two days. Anyway... I am giving him what he wants. We have agreed to work on our parenting relationship and try to make things less awkward for our kids. We are planning to do something with them on the Family Day stat.

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I remember some of my early conversations with the Xw. It felt like an out of body experience and I could not understand how someone I had been with for 17 years could be so cold and indifferent. It still baffles me to this day. If you can get a place where you can have mutual respect for one another then your kids will adjust and be just fine. Early on we did not do much together because I couldn’t emotionally take it. I would advise to only do things you are comfortable with early on. Hang in there!


Married 14, Together 17
M: 44, W: 43, D: 8, D: 6
M: 46, W: 45. D: 10. D: 8 (CUR)
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Originally Posted by DejaVu6
I followed him out
Dangit....I'm going to suggest you don't do this again.

Originally Posted by DejaVu6
He said there are a lot of things that he would like to apologize to me for but that I wouldn’t let him because I had told him that sorry doesn’t mean anything coming from him.
Translation: "I'm dealing with my guilt, but I'm not ready to accept responsibility, so it's your fault."

Just a couple areas to improve on, but overall I think you are doing quite well. You can't always make sense of everything he is doing, but you're doing a good job of keeping your focus on you.


H 34
W 29
BD 3/12/18
Divorce Busted Spring 19

It is not things that bother us, but the stories we tell ourselves about things.
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I get where you are coming from Ovrrnbw. I think I just need to get it over with and let him do what he thinks he needs to do. I need to move forward and start rebuilding my life. It’s gonna take some time. My H is all gung ho to get out there again and replace me. I, on the other hand, feel sick to my stomach just thinking about it. I have never in my life had “trust issues” but I have them now... and a broken heart.

Despite everything, it was helpful to talk with him and hear some of the things he had to say. I do think he is trying to be a good person and doing the best for me that he feels he can do. He was not cold or indifferent. He was just him... looking forward to his life...without me. I need to do the same.

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DejaVu,

That sounds like a really hard conversation. They do get easier with time, but that is probably of little consolation to you right now.

I do hear you still hanging on to him in your conversation. Why are you fighting over the date of separation? That is a personal one to me because I want to go to my WW and basically ask her to lie so that we can file for D sooner. If he wants out, what is the point of fighting him on that point?(excuse me because I don't remember the difference between the May and September dates). Also, why are you asking him if he is still lying about the "roommate?" If he had been lying a about it, would he really admit it now? Also, even if he told you the truth, would it really change things? Those things are sending clear signals to H that you are still clinging on to him.

You are right it is a process and it is going to take time, and you need to keep the focus on you, your kids, and your future. The more you can limit communication and contact with him the easier that will be. Obviously you need to work together as co-parents, but I would try to limit my conversations to that.

Hang in there. There is a light at the end of the tunnel.


W 34 Me 42
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0 kids 1 beloved dog
BD 4/6/2018
I moved out 4/7/2018
I moved back in alone 8/05/2018
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Thanks Davide. I am not fighting the date of separation or anything else. My H and I have never really “talked” since BD. This was kind of the first time. The significance is that he was leading a double life and pretending to live at home until I found out in mid-September.

I am letting him go. I know it might not seem like it given what I wrote but it is what is happening. Time has helped. I am not done grieving or reached 100% detachment. I am a lot closer despite my sadness over yesterday. All part of the process, I think. I am not trying to save my marriage. I am moving forward. There are better days ahead.

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Stayed home from work today. First time since BD that I just couldn’t go in. Tears started to build when I dropped my kids off at school so I called my sister to see if she could distract me and instead, when I heard her voice, I just lost it. She told me to turn around and drive home and showed up at my place with a coffee and a hug. I had a headache as well so decided to call in sick. I don’t see this wave of sadness as taking a step back... rather, I am seeing it as a stop forward... shaking off the remnants of a buried hope that my H might change his mind and try to rebuild our MR. He’s not going to. He is steadfast. I must be too.

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Only able to stay for half of my work day today. I have a headache that won’t seem to go away... combined with a heartache that is also really stubborn. I think the finality of everything is finally sinking in and it is bringing up fresh feelings of grief that I had tried to bury. This must be what it feels like to lose all hope. Seeing my H’s desperation to divorce me has set me back a bit. Not completely, thank goodness as I am not a puddle on the floor the way I was the first couple of months. I have let go of the bitterness and the anger. Yes, he made most of the decisions that made this situation so difficult to come back from but we both had a hand in the deterioration of our marriage.I should have done something when I sensed that I was losing him but I wasn’t brave enough. Forgiving myself is going to take longer than I thought. He was the love of my life and I lost him. So...no more resentment or poisonous thoughts...just deep, unadulterated sadness and regret. frown

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(((DV)))

I’m with you—about the sadness and regret. I feel like I tried to do something, but it may have been too little, too late.

I’m so sorry—and I appreciate your thoughts and posts on my sitch.

(((HUGS)))


M: 36
W: 30
T: 9
M: 7

S6 (OS)
S7mo (YS)

ILYBINILWY BD: Feb. ‘18

W Wants S / D BD: 1/4/19

H / W still in-house

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Deja - just catching up a little on your sitch. You are going through a lot, and it seems to be accelerating. His sense of urgency makes it difficult to process things in your own time.

Originally Posted by DejaVu6
I should have done something when I sensed that I was losing him but I wasn’t brave enough.


Do not give this another moments thought. This is useless, and would not have probably helped anyway. YOU are not the reason he did the things he did. That's all on him.

I'm thinking of you often.

Grace


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Hello DV

I had a post all typed out this morning after breakfast. Pressed the wrong button and poof all gone.. darn. Oh well this is take two.

A little backslide - that’s ok. We only grow emotionally when driving that “car” (I assume you’ve read my latest posts, otherwise that last bit is going to sound weird). We really don’t know what might trigger one of these emotional side trips. This particular one seems like a pretty big wave of sadness, and probably has some ties to that conversation with H. It’s ok, feel your feelings. Acknowledge them, stop feeding them, and let them flit away.

I understand your need to have a conversation, the wanting to know the lies. I also had a conversation with W, around the same timeframe as you are, it was at neutral ground, a restaurant. She talked rather openly about a few topics. I then asked her if this was her first and only affair during our marriage. She looked down at the table and said nothing. Yikes! I told her don’t worry about it, doesn’t really matter anymore. In a little bit she said “no”. So, if she was telling the truth why the delay? Who knows. Doesn’t really matter anymore.

You, like I did, got some answers, got some insights, and got some more questions. I also believe that discussion was helpful for moving forward.

Originally Posted by DejaVu6
I don’t see this wave of sadness as taking a step back... rather, I am seeing it as a step forward...

I am glad to see you realize this is still moving forward.

Originally Posted by DejaVu6
...shaking off the remnants of a buried hope that my H might change his mind and try to rebuild our MR. He’s not going to. He is steadfast. I must be too.

DV, we all question our feelings of hope, and then lose the feeling of hope. So darn fleeting aren’t they - feelings.

You might just find that hope is more than just a feeling, just like love is. Hope lives within the possibilities. Hope is a belief. Hope resides within the spiritual path.

Your H might just change his mind, whether you hope for that or not. The changing of his mind is not contingent on your hope or lack thereof.

It is possible that H may change. I hope he can and will.

Your statements of his steadfastness are based on his outward portrayal, which may or may not accurately depict what is going on inside him.

I can understand the “I must be too” attitude; the need to be strong. Please be careful, strong is good, rigid is not. Rigid is good right up until it breaks and shatters. Flexible can bend with the sudden and unforeseen forces. Strong and yet yielding will, paradoxically, create a much more resolute position.

Originally Posted by DejaVu6
I think the finality of everything is finally sinking in and it is bringing up fresh feelings of grief that I had tried to bury. This must be what it feels like to lose all hope.

The emotional journey hurts. (((DV))) Depression is one of the stages of grief, a needed stage for emotionally learning to accept. That stage is temporary, as are the others on the journey to acceptance. The feelings, the loss, the pain - it is temporary, honest.

Originally Posted by DejaVu6
I should have done something when I sensed that I was losing him but I wasn’t brave enough. Forgiving myself is going to take longer than I thought.

Be gentle on yourself. Self forgiveness will come and go for a bit, it takes some time. You have already tasted it, so you know you will get there.

“I wasn’t brave enough”. Facing and letting go of our fears is a huge step in this process. What were you afraid of? What are you afraid of? Learn your fears, and learn to let go. I know it is scary.

Originally Posted by DnJ
You feel a hand on your back and under your elbow. I am there, knelt down right beside you, encouraging you to lift your head.

Fear is a prison and the keys to your freedom are within you.

Let your light shine.


DnJ


Feelings are fleeting.
Be better, not bitter.
Love the person, forgive the sin.
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Thank you for the support Bo, Grace and DnJ. DnJ...that is above and beyond... to write such an involved post twice. I am honoured... and grateful. I have definitely been taken aback by this latest wave of sadness. I expected it in some ways but also did not. I am used to being without my H as he has been absent for a long time. But before there was always this imaginary end date when he would come back home and we would rediscover each other and fall in love all over again. That dream kept me going for a number of years. And now I know that is all it was...a fantasy that I made up to keep me warm at night. The reality, I have come to understand, was more of a nightmare.

Ugh...there’s a show on tv with a couple who are celebrating because his wife of 21 years finally signed the divorce papers so they can get married...the woman in the story (which is apparently a true one) is 21 years old. Gross. I just imagined my H in her boyfriend’s place. Yikes. That stings. A little exercise in self-torture. Oh....wait...she just got a threatening letter from her ex-husband saying they both are going to die. This might get good. [cue evil laugh]. Okay... I digress...thought I would insert some black humour into my post.

Thank you DnJ for that last quote. I can feel the encouragement and support from you and all of the wonderful people who are unlucky enough to find themselves here. It has meant the world to me and I am eternally grateful for all of you. In terms of what I was and am fearful of. Gosh that is a tough question. I think I was scared that I had already lost him, TBH. How ironic is that? What am I scared of now? I think I am scared that I will never feel that way again...about anyone. And even more scared that no one will ever feel that way about me...that this was my one and only chance at true love and I blew it. That is my biggest fear.

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Hi DV - I can't add anything that hasn't already been said, and said so much better. You are doing great. This hurts. It hurts so much. Every single day it still hits me. It comes and try as I might to not wallow in my grief, somedays I fail. You will fail many times. You will get up, put a smile on your face, get your kids ready and go about your day. And more and more that smile will be genuine.

There will be times when the sadness feels never ending. No longer the desperate storms that came crashing down after BD and in the months after. One wave after another crashing down and pushing you under. It is now a quiet but endless sea. You are trying to imagine what that shore looks like. Close your eyes and float. Let it be. The sadness you feel today is for future that has not yet happened.

Try to think about the things that recently have made you smile. That beautiful sunrise. The friends you've made. That NYE party you threw. The trip you took with your sister. Moments of happiness.

Know that we are there with you. There are tears running down my face as I type this. I am here for you and if I could I, like your sister, would have been there with a coffee and a hug. We all would.


W40 (me), H40
M14, Together 16
D12, D9

BD Oct 17
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Eloquent, and well said FlySolo.


Feelings are fleeting.
Be better, not bitter.
Love the person, forgive the sin.
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Good Morning DV

I know that imaginary end date idea. That is a tough thing to let go of. It feels wrong, sad, bad, and those feelings seep into other areas of our lives. Be patient, they’re just feelings. Float in that calm sea and keep your headings.

Thank you for sharing about your fears. Yes the fear of lost love, of never feeling that way again. That is a felt by so many of us.

This is the entrance to where your journey becomes your own. Letting go of fear, letting go of H, indifference, compassion, renewed hope! It is all possible and obtainable.

I sincerely mean every word in this linked post.

Fear

You are not alone.

DnJ


Feelings are fleeting.
Be better, not bitter.
Love the person, forgive the sin.
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Thank you FS. Your H really is a fool for walking away from such an intelligent and genuine person. Your support has been invaluable to me... I can feel your hug from across the ocean. smile

I definitely feel like I am floating on this sea of sadness right now. This all feels so senseless. Blowing up a family for reasons that were so fixable. My H’s complaint is that I never took his opinions into consideration and I have been wracking my brain trying to understand where it was that I did that. Every big decision we have ever made has been done together. There was one, the sale of his childhood home, where I admitted years ago that I pushed too hard on (new mother panic) and I have apologized to him numerous times since then. I have never said “no” to him. Everything he wanted to do or buy, we have always found a way to make it happen. Maybe it was his feeling that he needed my “permission” to do these things? I don’t know. Certainly someone who will put up with an absent husband for four years with very few complaints cannot be that controlling. I just feel like his view of me is so unfair...here come the tears again. So many cheeseless tunnels my brain wants to go down.

I have forgiven my H. I want to forgive myself. It seems like that is going to be a much tougher process.

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"Your H really is a fool for walking away from such an intelligent and genuine person"... This pertains to you too, ya know.

Of course it feels senseless. Of course you are wracking your brain trying to understand what you did. Of course his view of you is unfair.... This is because you have been and are being gaslighted. Gas lighting is a really big form of abuse. It does a ton of damage. (I suggest googling the term ) Talking to him is a waste, because every time you do, he twists it all on you. It pained me to read what he said to you at your last meeting. He deflected and turned it on you. And then you felt bad.

What he did and is doing is wrong and deceitful. And i think you know it and he knows it deep down. It is just hard to accept, which is why he twists it on you and why you accept it as yours to own. A person that does that is not a good person. Not a person to fight or pine for. Not a prize to win back. You are the price here. A loyal mother that wants to stay committed to her family. Read the posts written by many husbands here. They would cherish a woman like you. Your ex does not appreciate you. Good. Find someone that will. Or better yet, learn your worth first. Cause, you have absolutely nothing to beat yourself up over and nothing to allow someone else to continue doing it.

The only thing you need to forgive yourself for, is for allowing someone to treat you the way your ex is now. That is just a cruel way to treat yourself. Your not being kind to yourself.


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Twins age 5
WAH in summer
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DnJ - I so appreciate your wisdom and peaceful way of being. Thank you for taking the time to help me along this journey. Knowing I am not alone is comforting and also very sad. So many marriages did not have to end like this.

Juju - Thank you. I looked up the term. Certainly there are some things in there that apply to my H and definitely applied prior to BD when he was trying to maintain his cover story. I don’t think he is doing that now though. He shared with me some of his worst feelings about me and the relationship we had. I do not think he is a narcissist. I think he has Nice Guy Syndrome to the extreme and it stopped him from clearly communicating his feelings to me. I believe he was speaking the truth from his perspective just as I am speaking mine. You are right that he does not appreciate me though. I did so many things for him to reduce his stress during our marriage but it backfired as it led to him feeling like my child instead of my partner. What is that saying? The road to hell is paved with good intentions? Certainly that applies to me and my marriage. You are right about me needing to learn my worth. I know that is a challenge for me.

Had a text last night from a neighbour. She wants us to get to know each other better. Her daughter and my daughter have become good friends. I told her we should absolutely get together this weekend some time. Fits in perfectly with my goal of cultivating more female friendships.

Much love to all of you in DB Land. (((HUGS)))

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Journaling...

Had a good weekend with my kids. Not super eventful but lots of laughs and some quiet times too. Yesterday I had my neighbour and her two daughters over for breakfast. I make my kids pancakes every Sunday and with their dad gone, I usually make too much so I thought it would be fun to have some guests. It went really well. My neighbour is working towards her BSW and in the practicum phase. I didn't know that about her. I have a BSW and an M Ed in Counselling Psychology so we have that in common. It was nice chatting with her. She is married but her husband works out of town for two weeks and then is home for two weeks so she often finds herself alone with her kids. We're going to go dog walking at some point this week. It is -3 here today so hopefully it will warm out a bit. Yes... I am from the West Coast so am a little bit of a wimp when it comes to cold weather.

Still recovering from my emotional set back last week. Been thinking a lot about life after divorce and it has increased my anxiety a little bit. Preparing myself for the summer when my H is planning to have some fun dating. I am dreading the day when my kids come home and start talking about "Daddy's new friend". Trying not to think about it too much but also want to be prepared for when it happens. All of the OLD discussions on here have not helped. I really did not want to have to go down this road at this stage in my life. I don't think I can love anyone as much as I loved my H...especially now that my heart has been broken and I've experienced that kind of betrayal that I have. I just can't see me ever being that vulnerable with anyone again. I never, ever want to feel this way again. Makes me sad as I've always viewed my ability to be vulnerable with people as a strength. Now I think it is one of my biggest weaknesses...that and my tendency to trust people.

My BIL likes to point out to my sister and I that we were raised in a way that makes us easy targets for people and that we tend to overlook a lot of warning signs because of our belief that people are basically good. My BILs experiences in life have taught him the opposite - that you really shouldn't trust anyone until they have given you good reason to. He is a jaded guy BUT he and my sister are approaching their 24th wedding anniversary and they have more disagreements in a week than my H and I had in a year. So he is jaded but he is also loyal, honest and committed. He also really values having a family. My sister says he would also never leave her because her family is his family and he couldn't stand not to have me and my brother in his life. My H does not have that same attachment to family - mine or his. He is avoiding them all at this point and spends most of his time with people who have known him for less than two years. Sad.

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Originally Posted by DejaVu6

I don't think I can love anyone as much as I loved my H...especially now that my heart has been broken and I've experienced that kind of betrayal that I have. I just can't see me ever being that vulnerable with anyone again. I never, ever want to feel this way again. Makes me sad as I've always viewed my ability to be vulnerable with people as a strength. Now I think it is one of my biggest weaknesses...that and my tendency to trust people.


I am right there with you DV. I don't think I'll ever let my walls all the way down again. The sad truth is it CAN happen again no matter how wonderful the person may seem at first. I love my GF, but it's been over 4 years and I still cannot bring myself to trust her like I did my ex. I completely and utterly trusted my ex and I think that's part of the reason our M crumbled, because that trust led me to get lazy and complacent in the M. I can't bring myself to trust my GF like that. I would rather maintain enough independence that my life isn't turned upside down like that again. Maybe that's a bad thing? Or a good thing? I don't know, but that's how I prefer it to be.


Me: 60 w/ S18, D24, D27

M: 21 years; BD: 06-14-12; S: 09-10-12; D final: 03-17-14; XW:57
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Wow AS... your response certainly resonated with me. The part about trusting someone so much that you got lazy and complacent in your MR. I hadn't thought about what was behind my inaction in the marriage but yes, I think, that definitely had a lot to do with it. I trusted that if my H was unhappy or needed me to do something, that he would sit me down, look me in the eyes and tell me directly that we were in trouble and then give us the opportunity to work it out. I trusted he would do that completely. The stupid part is that the reason I trusted him to do that is because that is what I would have done. However, if I had really been thinking about it and reflecting on past behaviours, I would have figured out that that is not what my H does. But I ignored what I knew about him even though my gut told me multiple times that things were not what they seemed. I am usually pretty brave when it comes to doing the hard things in life but I wasn't with him.

My thoughts re: your GF... if not trusting her 100% stops you from becoming lazy and complacent, then maybe that is a good thing. And the lack of 100% trust does not mean she isn't 100% trustworthy... I think it is just the natural consequence of having been blindsided like most of us were. It can't help but change you as a person. I envy where you are at in life AS. I so want to get there and not have to go through this other stuff. But life just doesn't work that way, does it. smile

I spent some time looking through old threads this weekend and found three people who got divorced and then later reconciled with their H's who suddenly "woke up" and realized what they wanted, they had had all along. I'm not naïve enough to think that will happen with my H but it was comforting to read that it did happen for some people.

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DV- going through the historical threads on this site is very helpful - I've been doing the same! I find the tone of folks conversations different, and I really enjoy how close of a community it seemed to be. Sometimes I choose a random user, read a post, then click "all posts" and see what they posted 1 year or 2 years later. It is always an improvement. Sometimes they R, sometimes not, but they are always in a better headspace. You can see so many times when the LBS turned into the WAS at a potential point of R.

I'm currently in the process of reading all of Wonka's posts that still exist. Over 7,000. Something about her advice really speaks to me. She had good 2x4s, good advice, and always came from a place of positivity. She rarely engaged in negative speak about the person's WAS unless they were truly abusive.

Out of curiousity, who were the 3 posters? I know a former poster named Pink (don't know exact name) did - they were D and got remarried.

I think the part that's great about reading other people's stories is that you can really see they weren't stagnant.

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DV & AS,

I want to speak on what you mentioned wrt trust. I wasn't the most trusting person to begin with. XW was probably the least trusting person I know. She rubbed off on me and it caused me to be even less trusting. Now she was the one person I did trust. I was fully committed to my trust in her and she broke it. So how do you ever trust someone and make yourself vulnerable to someone like that again? Is it even possible? My walls are up so high and I don't see the point of bringing them down. Are we forever scarred? I sure as heck don't see the point in getting M again. Maybe if I wanted more kids, but I am good with 3.

How can we fully commit without fooling ourselves? AS do you have that itch that you can't scratch or thought tugging in the back of your head that your GF will bail or cheat on you so don't let her put both feet in the doorway?

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Yail - I looked around for a bit last night but couldn’t find the threads I was reading. I will look again tonight to see if I can find them. Can’t recall the names unfortunately.

Came home after work to an empty house. Luckily I had pool league to keep me busy. Drove by my daughter’s martial arts gym and saw my H sitting in his vehicle waiting for her. I just kept driving. Felt sad that I couldn’t pull over and talk to him. I miss our conversations. It is still so surreal to me, even after four months, that the person I was closest to for all those years became a stranger overnight. Thinking about it brings up that all too familiar burning sensation in my chest. I really hate that feeling.

Grief is such a painful process. I feel like I am caught between depression and acceptance. I have accepted that this is my reality as much as I don’t want it to be. It is what it is. My H could have made many other decisions and tried to honour is vows and fight for our family but he didn’t. He allowed resentment to build until it was the only feeling he had left in his heart for me. That is so hard for me to understand. To choose that over everything else. And he did that for four years. No wonder he could not see any other path. No resentment on my end. Just sadness and loss.

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Some unexpected down time at work. More opportunities for me to be alone with my thoughts. Decided it would be a good time to go through some of my personal files at work to get rid of some of them. Came across some pictures of my H...in happier times. They were painful to look at. Also some pics of guys I had dated before him which was interesting. Didn't know that I had some of those.

Gosh you guys... I so do not have any resentment or anger towards my H anymore. I really have forgiven him. But man... is there ever a lot of buried thoughts and feelings coming up about myself and the things I did and did not do to contribute to this situation. Forgiving myself appears to be something that I have to do every single day as one day does not seem to bleed into the next. A week ago Friday, I thought I had turned a corner in that department. But my talk with my H on Wednesday really set me back. It was jarring to see how much anger and resentment he has been harbouring towards me. When I first refused to agree to his date of separation, he went from collegial to irate in a nanosecond. I'm not sure that I have seen that level of animosity towards me...ever.

I am really trying to work on my PMA but I keep running into this wall of regret and shame. It takes so much energy to climb over it and I have done it so often, I think I am just starting to lose the will and the hope that there is something better on the other side. How is that for a major pity party? The thing is... I'm not feeling sorry for myself so much as I am feeling, deep down, that I somehow deserved this. I had the love that I had always wanted and I let it go. I let the things about me that my H loved go too. In my efforts to try and have the "perfect" life, I stopped living in the present and always had my sights set on tomorrow or next month or next year. I didn't look around enough. I didn't appreciate what I had. I never stopped telling my H that I loved him but I did stop showing it... and he stopped feeling it.

Reading what I wrote, I am resisting the urge to erase it and start over. I know that I can get through this. I have too many good things and good people in my life not to. But I think I need to document my worst feelings so I can really start to purge myself of them. Like if I see them in black and white, maybe they won't hurt me quite as much.

I know, I know...Time to catch my breath...take a step back...refocus...plan some more GAL activities...make some more short-term goals. I promise you I will get back to that. I haven't given up on me yet even though it may sound like I have.

Thanks all for your support and encouragement. I apologize for being a bit of a downer today. I promise I am working really hard to take my next step forward. I just really needed to try to journal these sad feelings away. (((HUGS)))

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Originally Posted by DejaVu6
I am really trying to work on my PMA but I keep running into this wall of regret and shame. It takes so much energy to climb over it and I have done it so often, I think I am just starting to lose the will and the hope that there is something better on the other side. How is that for a major pity party? The thing is... I'm not feeling sorry for myself so much as I am feeling, deep down, that I somehow deserved this. I had the love that I had always wanted and I let it go. I let the things about me that my H loved go too. In my efforts to try and have the "perfect" life, I stopped living in the present and always had my sights set on tomorrow or next month or next year. I didn't look around enough. I didn't appreciate what I had. I never stopped telling my H that I loved him but I did stop showing it... and he stopped feeling it.


(((DV))),

If it’s any consolation, I sometimes find myself in a similar mindset, as well. Though I probably can’t help you out of where you’re at, at least know that sometimes I’m down there with you.

I sometimes feel like I deserve this, too; that W told me what she needed from me, and I couldn’t do it or wouldn’t do it or it wasn’t enough or whatever.

When she would tell me what she needed, she would often close with saying something like ‘I’m saying this so my conscience can be clear’—and that always shook me, because deep down I feared it was a veiled threat at D.

I always thought I had what I wanted with W, flaws and all. Thought that she and I had a pretty good thing; though it wasn’t perfect and there were problems, there were good times, too. I would also tell W that I loved her, and I thought I did my best to back it up, but in her estimation I may have stopped showing it or didn’t show it as effectively as I could have. And perhaps she stopped feeling it.

The regrets and shame are difficult for me, too; shame is something that I’m working on conquering for me in general, not just with respect to my MR. I’m working on it, but at some points it’s more difficult than others.

I do know and hope that something (and someone) better await, in time. What that looks like or when, not sure. Trying to keep focus on myself and the boys, and how to protect the 3 of us in this.

I’m with you—I journal on here to let out the thoughts that otherwise would spin round and round in my head, or could make their way into interactions with W or others—I use this as a sounding board, so I often do repeat myself and ‘spin,’ but it’s my way of processing it. Tbh, I do need better outlets (exercise, GALing), but this also helps too.


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Originally Posted by Bo562
Originally Posted by DejaVu6
I am really trying to work on my PMA but I keep running into this wall of regret and shame. It takes so much energy to climb over it and I have done it so often, I think I am just starting to lose the will and the hope that there is something better on the other side. How is that for a major pity party? The thing is... I'm not feeling sorry for myself so much as I am feeling, deep down, that I somehow deserved this. I had the love that I had always wanted and I let it go. I let the things about me that my H loved go too. In my efforts to try and have the "perfect" life, I stopped living in the present and always had my sights set on tomorrow or next month or next year. I didn't look around enough. I didn't appreciate what I had. I never stopped telling my H that I loved him but I did stop showing it... and he stopped feeling it.


(((DV))),

If it’s any consolation, I sometimes find myself in a similar mindset, as well. Though I probably can’t help you out of where you’re at, at least know that sometimes I’m down there with you.

I sometimes feel like I deserve this, too; that W told me what she needed from me, and I couldn’t do it or wouldn’t do it or it wasn’t enough or whatever.

When she would tell me what she needed, she would often close with saying something like ‘I’m saying this so my conscience can be clear’—and that always shook me, because deep down I feared it was a veiled threat at D.

I always thought I had what I wanted with W, flaws and all. Thought that she and I had a pretty good thing; though it wasn’t perfect and there were problems, there were good times, too. I would also tell W that I loved her, and I thought I did my best to back it up, but in her estimation I may have stopped showing it or didn’t show it as effectively as I could have. And perhaps she stopped feeling it.

The regrets and shame are difficult for me, too; shame is something that I’m working on conquering for me in general, not just with respect to my MR. I’m working on it, but at some points it’s more difficult than others.

I do know and hope that something (and someone) better await, in time. What that looks like or when, not sure. Trying to keep focus on myself and the boys, and how to protect the 3 of us in this.

I’m with you—I journal on here to let out the thoughts that otherwise would spin round and round in my head, or could make their way into interactions with W or others—I use this as a sounding board, so I often do repeat myself and ‘spin,’ but it’s my way of processing it. Tbh, I do need better outlets (exercise, GALing), but this also helps too.



Looking back my w told me as well what she was needing and i just blew it off as her nagging me. I didn't appreciate that she was coming to me and telling me what she needed from me. Mine was being selfish and insecure about her hanging out with people , being controlling. That was over a year ago she told me that. I didn't change or encourage her to go out and make new gfs and hang out with them. I didn't take her feelings into account . That hurts bad to realize that now. After reading gottmans MGTW and how he points out women have to have friends to live and get by . That really opened my eyes .

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DV, you have now said several times that you have forgiven your H. Can I ask why that is? I am not fishing for anything in particular here, but more so wondering what your reasoning is. What has he done to deserve your forgiveness? And if he hasn't, then why is it you want/need to forgive him to move forward?

Blu


“Forgiveness liberates the soul. It removes fear. That is why it is such a powerful weapon.” – Nelson Mandela
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Bo - It is nice to know I am not alone in my need to journal my worst thoughts. I find that when I do and I read it over to myself, my brain starts to work on the things I need to work on. Self love is a HUGE issue for me. I didn’t think it was until this happened. The hole my H has left in me is far too big given how long he has been checked out of “our” life. I have to ask myself why that is? Why do I feel like I need him to be okay? Intellectually, I know that I don’t. So why is there such a yearning in my heart? He has been essentially gone for over four years and when he was around, he was dismissive, uninterested and irritable. He had everyone in the house walking on egg shells including our children. There were flashes of the man I fell in love with but, for the most part, he was just difficult to be around. So why would I miss that? Why am I not enough for me? Why do I look in the mirror and see only my faults and insecurities? These are really tough questions that I have only just begun to answer for myself. More than anything, I want to feel whole on my own.

Bubbs - There are a number of things my H needed from me that I was only partially aware of. I know that he needed more physical touch. I have to give myself a bit of a pass on that for the last few years as he wasn’t around but before that, I was just so exhausted with working full time and motherhood that it just wasn’t a priority. I depended on him to make the first move but he rarely did so I just figured we were in the same boat and would just fix it later. Later just never seemed to arrive. I also know my H needed to feel like his efforts were appreciated. I think I did go out of my way at times to thank him when he did things but over time, I stopped. TBH...I think I was a bit resentful that I was supposed to make a big deal every time my H lifted a finger to help me but that I rarely, if ever, got a thanks from him for the things that I did...including for dealing with his daughter’s overbearing mother. In 13 years, I think he had maybe three conversations with her. I dealt with her every other time...emails, text messages, phone calls, money requests, holiday scheduling, visits, etc... I did all of it. He maybe thanked me three times over that whole time period and that is only after I pointed out to him that he never thanked me. Anyway... water under the bridge except for now she wants to be my friend so she is still bugging me.

Blu - I had to really think about your question and TBH, I am still thinking about it. I’m not sure what he has done to deserve my forgiveness and I’m not sure that he needs to deserve it to have it. Forgiveness, for me, goes hand-in-hand with acceptance. And I’m not sure I can have one without the other. If I don’t forgive him, I may accept that he is gone but I think there would always be some negativity remaining and I don’t want that in my life.

Today I wandered into a colleagues office and sat down in one of her chairs for a quick chat. I looked over to my right and on her bookshelf I noticed a book entitled “You Can Heal Your Heart”. Perfect book for me given my life right now. I asked her if I could borrow it and I read some of it at lunch. It is filled with a lot of self affirmations and different ways to think about grief and the loss of a relationship. One of the things I read that stood out for me was that you can act yourself into a new way of thinking more easily than you can think yourself into a new way of acting. I talk to my clients about this all of the time. I ask them who it is they want to be in the world and how do they want to influence the people around them. If they died tomorrow, what would they want people to say about them at their funeral?

I have been asking myself these same questions lately. I want to be someone who REALLY loves and accepts people for who they are. My H is not a bad person. He did not do the things he did out of malice or hate. For whatever reason, he could not see any other solution to his pain than what he did. Could he have chosen another path? I could have and would have chosen a different path but I’m not him so I can’t really say. Only he can answer that and, at this point, does it even matter? He and I made a promise to each other when we got married. We agreed that no matter what, we would always assume that the other person was doing the best they could. We both seemed to forget that promise for a good part of our marriage but I remember it now and it is important to me that I keep that promise. So...I forgive him... for our children, for him, and for me. Forgiving myself is a work in progress and I am working on it every day.

Not sure I answered your question or if my answer even made sense but these are the things that I have been thinking about lately. smile

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Good Morning DV

Excellent answer to why you forgive H. The goes hand in hand with acceptance and the negativity that will remain if you don’t - wise insights.

So, why can’t you see that for yourself? Forgiveness and acceptance. You are still working towards accepting yourself and your actions. For a lot of times acceptance sounds like giving up, or blaming, when directed at ourselves. Acceptance is just emotional understanding. Blame, regret, letting go of fear, etc... are other factors to look into which help lead to acceptance.

For what it’s worth, to me it looks like you are adjusting your beliefs. Challenging them, strengthening the ones you want, and altering and bettering the less desirable ones. This takes time. Feeling are fleeting, thoughts come and go pretty quick, however beliefs are slow to change. Keep your heading and get your soul walking the direction you want to go. Become the DV you want to be.

You have the gift of time, keep using it well.

Your “cars” will line up, it’s just going to take time.

DnJ

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D - I am almost 2 years in and I have still not forgiven my XW for what she did to our family. I have accepted it but I have not forgiven her. If she wanted to recon with me tomorrow the one thing that I would have a tough time swallowing is not what she did (how she felt) but how she went about doing it. The lack of communication, the lack of effort, the lack of expressing herself to me. She may have tried to make it work "her" way but she never clued me in on "her" efforts to make it work. So "her" working on it was one sided without me, the other half in the R, being included in the process. Thus "we" never worked on our R. That is something that would make it very difficult for me to trust her again.

IMO you don't have to forgive to move on but at some point you do have to accept.

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Originally Posted by DejaVu6
My thoughts re: your GF... if not trusting her 100% stops you from becoming lazy and complacent, then maybe that is a good thing. And the lack of 100% trust does not mean she isn't 100% trustworthy... I think it is just the natural consequence of having been blindsided like most of us were.


Yes, exactly. Once bitten twice shy smile The downside is she feels like I'm not "all-in", and while I've explained the above to her I'm not sure it really resonates with her. She's never been married, and never been in a relationship longer than ours so she doesn't really understand where I'm coming from.

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I envy where you are at in life AS. I so want to get there and not have to go through this other stuff. But life just doesn't work that way, does it. smile


Unfortunately you've got to put raw materials in a really hot fire for a length of time to refine them into steel, there's just no shortcut. But you will be a Damascus Steel sword before you know it grin

Quote
I spent some time looking through old threads this weekend and found three people who got divorced and then later reconciled with their H's who suddenly "woke up" and realized what they wanted, they had had all along. I'm not naïve enough to think that will happen with my H but it was comforting to read that it did happen for some people.


Yeah it definitely happens. Often by the time they "wake up" the LBS is well and truly done with them and those people tend not to come back to share the story. So many more WAS's eventually "wake up" than we realize I think. Unfortunately they do it on their timeline, not ours. And their timeline is stupidly long.


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Thanks Everyone.

Thanks everyone for your input.

Originally Posted by DnJ
So, why can’t you see that for yourself? Forgiveness and acceptance. You are still working towards accepting yourself and your actions. For a lot of times acceptance sounds like giving up, or blaming, when directed at ourselves. Acceptance is just emotional understanding. Blame, regret, letting go of fear, etc... are other factors to look into which help lead to acceptance.


Yes... it is a work in progress. I am getting there... promise. smile

Originally Posted by Joseph9
I am almost 2 years in and I have still not forgiven my XW for what she did to our family. I have accepted it but I have not forgiven her. If she wanted to recon with me tomorrow the one thing that I would have a tough time swallowing is not what she did (how she felt) but how she went about doing it. The lack of communication, the lack of effort, the lack of expressing herself to me. She may have tried to make it work "her" way but she never clued me in on "her" efforts to make it work. So "her" working on it was one sided without me, the other half in the R, being included in the process. Thus "we" never worked on our R. That is something that would make it very difficult for me to trust her again.

IMO you don't have to forgive to move on but at some point you do have to accept.


For me to move on, I really think I need both. When I think back on my MR, I want to be able to smile.. Will I ever agree with the things that he did? No I won't. For sure, he sealed our fate and it s#cks and it is unfair and it could have been very, very different if only he had trusted us enough to let me know what was going on. But he didn't and that is more about him than it is about me. But I did have a part in it so it isn't all on him. Strangely... I think I could trust him again. But only if he did the work and truly wanted to build a new relationship. "Forgiveness means giving up hope for a better past." I read that somewhere... maybe on here? Anyway...it spoke to me. We can't go back as much as some of us would dearly love to.

Originally Posted by AnotherStander
Unfortunately you've got to put raw materials in a really hot fire for a length of time to refine them into steel, there's just no shortcut. But you will be a Damascus Steel sword before you know it grin


And man is that fire ever hot!! Hmmm...my H has a thing for swords...lol.

Originally Posted by AnotherStander
Yeah it definitely happens. Often by the time they "wake up" the LBS is well and truly done with them and those people tend not to come back to share the story. So many more WAS's eventually "wake up" than we realize I think. Unfortunately they do it on their timeline, not ours. And their timeline is stupidly long.


Yes...I'd like to think this could happen in my sitch but I highly doubt it. I think my H is too stubborn and has too much pride. I also think that the second he sleeps with someone and feels those butterflies again, he will be all in and won't look back. The best predictor of future behaviour is past behaviour and my H has a history of this. Also...this is really what he wants. He wants to have a responsibility-free relationship and to be a part-time parent. He would deny that last part to the nth degree but deep down, he knows it is true. He wasn't only running away from me for all those years.


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