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M: 36
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T: 9
M: 7

S6 (OS)
S7mo (YS)

ILYBINILWY BD: Feb. ‘18

W Wants S / D BD: 1/4/19

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Originally Posted by AnotherStander
Bo, her whole spiel was scripted right out of the WAS handbook.

=======================================
Chapter 1: Getting What You Want

Step 1- tell him what you want and expect him to roll over and take it.

Step 2- if he doesn't, then get irate and pitch a fit until he rolls over and takes it. Name-calling, accusations, insults, whatever it takes.

Step 3- if that doesn't work then throw him a bone, act like you still like him and give him a glimmer of hope that you might be willing to reconcile if only he were to do A, B and C (which you will of course never do, this is about getting what you want).

Step 4- if he's still not caving then walk away with new respect for him, this isn't going to be the picnic you thought it was. Time to regroup.
=======================================

Congrats, you made it to step 3 before caving.


Great.

I feel like an absolute POS on 2 levels—that I made things worse (as if that was possible), and as well as when she dredged up the past.


M: 36
W: 30
T: 9
M: 7

S6 (OS)
S7mo (YS)

ILYBINILWY BD: Feb. ‘18

W Wants S / D BD: 1/4/19

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Bo,

I am going to give you my opinion and be brutally honest with you.

Everything your W said that doesn't involve her being DONE and the process of separating and getting divorced is BS. It makes absolutely no sense to separate and file for divorce and then go to marriage counseling.

Your W is either in a full blown affair or is just completely done RIGHT NOW to want a D with a new born baby. You just don't see that at all on this board. They usually wait until the children are a little older and more self sufficient.

It comes down to what YOU want for you and your kids. Take the BS carrot she is trying to dangle in front of you out of the equation. If nesting doesn't work for you then don't agree to it.

As far as the courts, they want to see 50/50 custody. This isn't 1950 when the woman was always awarded custody. If anything with her traveling they would probably lean toward awarding you prime custody.

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Originally Posted by Twofeet
Bo,

You need to be careful. In your conversation you said she threatened to get a court order to get you kicked out of the home. As far as I understand she would have to do that with a DVRO. Then later in your convo she says she loves you and will go to MC, but on her terms. She is also re-writing history, gaslighting, etc. She is fully on the rollercoaster and attempting to pull you on with her. My Ex is only nice when she wants something. You say the right thing and the mask will fall off so you can see the true self hiding behind it. You saw some of that in your convo with your W and her threats Bo. You may need seek council with your L again.


TF,

She has threatened this court order if I don’t agree to the bird-nesting arrangement. She told me that she is not leaving.

What I’m concerned about with a DVRO is that she could potentially use some of what she claims I said / did in the past as basis for that—that I’m emotionally abusive and this and that and the other.

I’ve never been physically or sexually abusive towards her; I don’t believe I’ve been emotionally abusive towards her, but at this point it’s not about what I believe.

A lot of she would talk about last night is the HURT that I inflicted on her—how I would say and do hurtful things, and that she would cry in the shower every night (she would talk about the crying in the shower part in the past). I’m concerned she will claim the past hurts as emotional abuse.

I know I’ve not been a good husband at times (haven’t fought fair, been kinda distant, I’ve had anger / resentment that I’ve had to deal with or let go of in the past, forgetfulness, unwilling to change for whatever reason). But I just don’t know if I’ve been THAT terrible towards her to warrant her depiction of me—the crying in the shower is a personal reaction.

But yeah the rewriting: Oh back in October I really wasn’t planning on leaving—BUT WHAT YOU DID sealed the deal for this. Of course—it’s my fault.

I probably do need to talk with the L again. Monday, the L made a distinction between joint and physical custody—joint in the sense that it is legally ‘even’ (more or less) and physical custody (who actually sees and cares for the kids on a day-to-day basis). Based on what I told her, L seems to believe that physical custody would potentially skew towards me because of her travel for work. W also believes that I will pay her child support (she outearns me). L said that most likely SHE WILL pay me child support if it gets that far.

W said that if I try to fight her on custody, she will fight back, and that she is being more than fair—better than any court or judge would ever do towards a man—that I need to seriously reconsider my stance. She asked if I retained a lawyer (I told her no—but I didn’t tell her that I consulted one).

She doesn’t want to leave, and then again, NEITHER DO I.

Like I told A/S, I feel like a POS on 2 levels—about all the shiz that she dredged up, and that she came after me again and is now threatening with potentially taking the boys away from me.

Last edited by Bo562; 01/16/19 02:46 PM.

M: 36
W: 30
T: 9
M: 7

S6 (OS)
S7mo (YS)

ILYBINILWY BD: Feb. ‘18

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Bo, you didn't make it worse. Nothing has changed, she's still a full-blown WAS. She's just trying to manipulate you to get what she wants. Like LH said, don't go for the carrot. Don't agree to anything that you don't want to just because you think it gives you a shot at recon. Right now that is not on her radar, when she says it is, she is just being deceptive.


Me: 60 w/ S18, D24, D27

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Originally Posted by Bo562
What I’m concerned about with a DVRO is that she could potentially use some of what she claims I said / did in the past as basis for that—that I’m emotionally abusive and this and that and the other.

I’ve never been physically or sexually abusive towards her; I don’t believe I’ve been emotionally abusive towards her, but at this point it’s not about what I believe.


Have you retained a L or just talked to one? It might be time to retain one. This would be a good thing to discuss with your L to see if you need to do anything to document your W's threats so you can protect yourself against that possibility.

Quote
W said that if I try to fight her on custody, she will fight back, and that she is being more than fair—better than any court or judge would ever do towards a man—that I need to seriously reconsider my stance. She asked if I retained a lawyer (I told her no—but I didn’t tell her that I consulted one).


OK well "fight her on custody" means what to her, that you're not agreeing to the nesting thing? Because that is complete BS. "Fighting on custody" means you don't agree on the percentage of custody for each parent, it has nothing to do with the living arrangements. The living arrangements are not for the court to decide, nesting isn't a legal issue, it's a personal choice outside of the legal system.


Me: 60 w/ S18, D24, D27

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Sorry, responded to a couple of things in your previous thread. My bad.


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Originally Posted by LH19
Bo,

I am going to give you my opinion and be brutally honest with you.

Everything your W said that doesn't involve her being DONE and the process of separating and getting divorced is BS. It makes absolutely no sense to separate and file for divorce and then go to marriage counseling.

Your W is either in a full blown affair or is just completely done RIGHT NOW to want a D with a new born baby. You just don't see that at all on this board. They usually wait until the children are a little older and more self sufficient.

It comes down to what YOU want for you and your kids. Take the BS carrot she is trying to dangle in front of you out of the equation. If nesting doesn't work for you then don't agree to it.

As far as the courts, they want to see 50/50 custody. This isn't 1950 when the woman was always awarded custody. If anything with her traveling they would probably lean toward awarding you prime custody.



None of this makes sense, LH.

Originally Posted by LH19
just completely done RIGHT NOW to want a D with a new born baby.


?????? Please clarify.

Originally Posted by LH19
If nesting doesn't work for you then don't agree to it.


She wanted to know my objection—I told her straight up: why should I be the one to leave half-time if she is the one who wants out of this MR?

Originally Posted by LH19
As far as the courts, they want to see 50/50 custody. This isn't 1950 when the woman was always awarded custody. If anything with her traveling they would probably lean toward awarding you prime custody.


That’s what I thought—this isn’t the 50s, or even the 80s for that matter. She would probably play the breast-feeding card; but now that YS is at a home-sitter he bottle-feeds during the day, and he bottle-feeds whenever he is with me without W.

L talked about the potential of physical custody skewing my way.


M: 36
W: 30
T: 9
M: 7

S6 (OS)
S7mo (YS)

ILYBINILWY BD: Feb. ‘18

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Originally Posted by AnotherStander

Have you retained a L or just talked to one? It might be time to retain one. This would be a good thing to discuss with your L to see if you need to do anything to document your W's threats so you can protect yourself against that possibility.


Just talked to one. But yeah thinking about how to pony up for that retainer. I should probably bring this up to the L.

Originally Posted by AnotherStander


OK well "fight her on custody" means what to her, that you're not agreeing to the nesting thing? Because that is complete BS. "Fighting on custody" means you don't agree on the percentage of custody for each parent, it has nothing to do with the living arrangements. The living arrangements are not for the court to decide, nesting isn't a legal issue, it's a personal choice outside of the legal system.


If I understood her correctly (which who knows—she is so out there and I am rattled)—it would mean agreeing to the nesting arrangement but also percentage of custody.

I’m not planning on leaving, and the kids are to be there—so I would see the kids more by definition I guess.

She also proposed that her and the kids are welcome at her mom’s—but that is a bit of a drive.


M: 36
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T: 9
M: 7

S6 (OS)
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ILYBINILWY BD: Feb. ‘18

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Originally Posted by Steve85
Sorry, responded to a couple of things in your previous thread. My bad.


All good Steve. Thank you!


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Originally Posted by Bo562


Originally Posted by LH19
just completely done RIGHT NOW to want a D with a new born baby.


?????? Please clarify.


It means that IMO she has really checked out to pursue a D with a newborn. Something drastically obviously changed over the last 12 months. You don't have a baby with someone you plan on divorcing.

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Originally Posted by LH19

It means that IMO she has really checked out to pursue a D with a newborn. Something drastically obviously changed over the last 12 months. You don't have a baby with someone you plan on divorcing.


Tbh, neither of us planning on having YS at the time. (We’re Catholic and until this pregnancy practiced Natural Family Planning—timing was off, and tada pregnant.)

Fits the timeline—ILYBINILWY BD in Feb. (early pregancy), things “didn’t really get better” in October (post-pregnancy).

Back in Oct., she originally told me about proposing a break or an S—what I found hard to understand was “you’re gonna do this with a small child? Okay then man that is dumb why would you.....” (my internal thoughts).


M: 36
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T: 9
M: 7

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ILYBINILWY BD: Feb. ‘18

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I'm sorry you found yourself here. My ex left me when our D was 6 months old. The one we went through surgery for him, IVF for me to have. He claimed no other woman. Well, there was for sure another woman. I could also tell you, my ex wouldn't have left me if there was another woman.

I am sorry, but I am 99.9% sure she is having an affair. I would lawyer up and fight like heck to get your 50% of custody.

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Originally Posted by Ginger1


I am sorry, but I am 99.9% sure she is having an affair. I would lawyer up and fight like heck to get your 50% of custody.


Thank you, Ginger (((HUGS))). Welcome to the craziness.

What, in your opinion, makes you believe she is having an A? (I’ve thought about a potential EA for her.).

She is offering me 50% custody—unless I start to push back on her proposal, then she brought up the potential to have me removed via court order.


M: 36
W: 30
T: 9
M: 7

S6 (OS)
S7mo (YS)

ILYBINILWY BD: Feb. ‘18

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Originally Posted by Ginger1


I am sorry, but I am 99.9% sure she is having an affair.


What’s wild is that last night, she asked me if there was anyone else on MY end. “I don’t know if there is another person for you, I don’t want to know.....”

Narrator Voice: There’s not, but I also know I need to keep my guard up because I’m sure I’m ripe for an EA / PA if things ever aligned. Won’t do that, but need to be strong in that regard.


M: 36
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T: 9
M: 7

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Originally Posted by Bo562
What’s wild is that last night, she asked me if there was anyone else on MY end. “I don’t know if there is another person for you, I don’t want to know.....”


It's very common for the guilty party to project what they are doing on to the innocent party.

It would be really rare for a woman with a newborn to let go of a branch without having another branch to hold onto.

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Originally Posted by LH19


It's very common for the guilty party to project what they are doing on to the innocent party.

It would be really rare for a woman with a newborn to let go of a branch without having another branch to hold onto.


Sounds like classic projection.

The other branch(es) that she will hold on to are her mom and her dad. She told me how worried she is for me—I don’t have family / support network out her to look after me or take care of me financially. Her mom is out here, and both her mom and her dad are relatively well-off financially.

To me, this looks like concern-trolling of the highest-order—hey, I’m gonna divorce you, but I’m really worried about how you’re going to make it.

If she’s so concerned, maybe don’t do that? Jfc


M: 36
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Originally Posted by Bo562


W and I had a very long chat tonight, and I’ll try to recap some of the highlights.

She wanted my thoughts on the parenting plan.....I basically said what LH proposed.....and she did NOT take that well at all. She basically went all fire and brimstone on me and said that I should take what she is proposing (she is proposing joint custody—not primary custody), and that I should really think about all this because what kinda judge will side with me if I choose to fight this—that judges will side with the mother and award primary custody TO HER.

She basically also threatened me with the fact that she could start the divorce proceedings and get a court order to get me out of the house—that it could always come down to that. She also asked me to consider if I could really afford the place on my own (I can’t—but neither can she by herself), but I’m not sure what she knows about CA community property laws regarding assets / debts (she believes that my credit cards would not be split because the accounts were opened BEFORE we were married, which is true; however, what I believe is that any debt incurred DURING the marriage would be split—I don’t think she considers that, if that is indeed true, and if it is true, I’m wondering what that may mean for her thoughts).

Now that part is interesting....because then she launched into, and this will sound crass, basically the typical WAS spiel. That’s she is DONE, that’s she not been happy, that she’s never been happy, that she’s told me to change this and that and that I never did or never would, and that she checked out long ago. She also talked about how much she was HURT in the last few years and that I caused her so much HURT....and I am indeed sad about that and told her that my intent was never to hurt her. What I am afraid of though is that she could escalate and use her ‘hurt-ness’ as a claim of abuse to basically evict me.

After a lot of fire and brimstone and posturing, and my attempts and validating (which she can’t stand because to her they seem fake), we finally started to get in to some real talking, and for that she thanked me. And I got an ILY from her for the first time in a long time—that she loves me, and will always love me, no matter what happens. What she really wanted earlier this month was to know my thoughts on the conversation that we had during dinner on Friday the 4th. I asked her ‘would it matter?’ She basically was all ‘try me.’ I basically echoed something Steve posted about ‘I love you, and I believe that what we have can be saved if we can put the work in, but I’m not going to force her to stay.’ And I do believe that, and I tried to communicate that to her. But she also started to acknowledge that she could continue to try. But also that I would have to try—she admitted that she wants a partner, and she brought up examples of how I didn’t do that or haven’t done that (that I didn’t hold her hand through every contraction when she was pregnant with Isaac because I was looking at my phone—I know, I was stupid for that and I feel so guilty, but I was there and with her when she said she needed me—when she could feel the contractions coming she would call me over and I would be right there when she called. I know, 180–and man do I feel like a POS husband for that.)

I asked her if she would be wiling to do MC—she said yes, but a secular one, not a Catholic or Christian one (not Catholic because she doesn’t want to be shamed re: birth control; not Christian because she doesn’t want any ‘submissive or obedient’ talk directed her way).

Supposedly, our October conversation where she floated the possibility of a break or an S allegedly sealed the divorce option in her eyes because I ‘freaked out’ in her eyes. That I talked about how wives should be submissive and obedient towards their husbands (when did I say that, or if I did, the meaning was totally lost—WTF), or that because she was doing the IUD that I would consider having sex with her sinful and that I didn’t want to participate in her sin or something like that (once again, WTF did I say that)? I haven’t been asking for sex not because I find it sinful, but because it is ‘pursuit,’ and I’ve realized that she hasn’t been wanting that from me for a while.

She told me that I would need to put myself aside, not only for the parenting plan, but also the implication is that if I want any chance / future with her, I would need to do that with her. I thought I’ve done it before, but apparently I have not. And she brought up the birth control / IUD angle—this may not be DB principles, but I tried to affirm for her that this is an instance where I would be willing to put that aside and lay that down—and I recall telling her at that time that although I didn’t like the IUD and am not okay with this, I’m also not willing to blow up our marriage over this.

She feels like she would be a better parent without me—that she is always having to walk on eggshells around me—hence, the bird-nesting proposal, but also the separation, in general.

Basically: She wants to get paperwork started, file for divorce, but can’t do it without a signed custody agreement (hence, the parenting plan for bird-nesting)—but what she wants is basically time apart FROM ME (which I’ve never really understood—she gets tons of time for travel for work—yes I know she’s working, but she would also tell me that she would have all this downtime after her work hours where she could relax / sleep / be by herself—and all that wasn’t enough?) She admits that this time apart now would be for her to process her feelings, and she warned me to not read too much into this. So, detachment and no expectations. I wonder if she’s been DB’ing. I actually see a faint glimmer of hope for our relationship—I could be totally wrong, but yeah no expectations.

What she wants to do is file for divorce to get the separation started, if that makes sense (to me that sounds backwards, but whatever). We do this bird-nesting thing (or whatever proposal we come up with) for about a year, and then sometime towards the end of that year we (re-)evaluate where we are at with everything—should we stay together, or actually continue to follow through with the divorce.

I guess what I need right now is: What should I do? I’ve tried DB’ing as best as I could the last couple of months, but if anything it’s pushed her further away from me, it seems like. My attempts at detaching and validation—have they been good enough? Well, if the goal is to get her back, the answer is clearly ‘no’—but that’s not the goal, especially now—for me, I’m coming to realize that detachment means not get s*cked into another person’s crazy—don’t let another person’s emotions affect you—even though it doesn’t seem like it now.

So—what should I do? 180s. Detach. Validate.

Did I screw things up even more? Or is there more hope? Or do I deserve a ton of 2x4s for tonight?



Bo, finally got to read through this. She is manipulating you. Notice, she emediately jumped on you when you said you didn't want to do the bird nesting. Then she calmed down, threw out the idea of trying. Then she agreed to MC (with stipulations which means she's still wayward!). Then came back to a plan that again involved bird nesting. Manipulation.

And yes, she sounds capable of lying about abuse in order to get you out of the house. Be wary of that veiled threat. I'd get a lawyer and fast!

On the bird nesting. The thing that kept coming back to me is an adage I really believe. As you pointed out she doesn't need that to have time and space, she gets plenty now! She doesn't need it for any of the reasons she's given. The adage is this: women don't need their own place to find themselves. Or to figure things out. Or to decide what they want. That's a lie. Women need their own place to sleep with other people. This bird nesting idea isn't about your marriage. It's about her wanting to do what she wants to do.

Lawyer. And stat. You have a tinder box here. You're either going to end up in an arrangement that you do not want (bird nesting) or things could get ugly. Not a pleasant place to be in. Knowledge is power. Get a lawyer so you know your rights.

Also, DBing is not something that you judge in a day, week, month or two months. DBing is like long term investing. You need to give it time to see a trend. It isn't about "did it with today, or this week". It is a long term thing. Also DBing isn't about saving your marriage. It sometimes had that side effect. It's about saving yourself. That's what GAL, 180s and detachment do. They help you save you! If your marriage comes along for the ride, then so be it.


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Thanks everyone.

I’ll need to call that lawyer back. W wants answers, and she wants deadlines. She wants to get this going ASAP, because it will take 6-9 months through the courts.

Couple more things #foodforthought:

W told me last night that she was worried sick that while I was home on Christmas Break with the boys, that I would just up and take them from her and from the residence. I know, I know, don’t reason with them—but where would I go? She’s the one with family here in SoCal.

W has accused me of being so ‘fake’ the last couple weeks / couple months, as I’ve really tried the detaching / validating. (What has worked for validating is basically repeating the last thing she told me back to her as a question—I’ve found that helpful / constructive more so than anything, so will continue to do that.) She told me she absolutely hated what I’ve been doing / what I’ve become, and she always wondered if I had some sort of ‘smoking gun’ on her that I was going to spring on her and deploy.

Makes me wonder—why would she use that language?


M: 36
W: 30
T: 9
M: 7

S6 (OS)
S7mo (YS)

ILYBINILWY BD: Feb. ‘18

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Originally Posted by Bo562

W has accused me of being so ‘fake’ the last couple weeks / couple months, as I’ve really tried the detaching / validating. (What has worked for validating is basically repeating the last thing she told me back to her as a question—I’ve found that helpful / constructive more so than anything, so will continue to do that.) She told me she absolutely hated what I’ve been doing / what I’ve become, and she always wondered if I had some sort of ‘smoking gun’ on her that I was going to spring on her and deploy.

Makes me wonder—why would she use that language?


What language?

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The phrase ‘smoking gun’


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ILYBINILWY BD: Feb. ‘18

W Wants S / D BD: 1/4/19

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My guess is she is worried you know about her affair.

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Can you say guilty conscience?

I would dare to reason that her wondering about "the smoking gun" would seem to suggest that she's been up to no good.

:-(

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Bo, WASs/WSs will always react to DBing. Mine kept asking if something was wrong. Some get belligerent (see SoTorn's thread). But all will react once you start doing it well.

As far as her language? Likely as she feels a loss of control and power she will start poking. She'll throw things against the wall and see what sticks. The usual one is "Are you cheating on me?" Always ripe for those that are engaged in EAs or PAs. As if you cheating is terrible despite what they might be doing. (Note, I am not justifying starting a relationship with someone. Just that they do not have the moral high ground they think they do.)

Bo, my advice is double down on DBing. Keep working on detachment. Keep 180ing on things that you need to change about you. GAL like a madman. Be the best dad you can be. Be AMOAFWL!


M(53), W(54),D(19)
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Steve,

I guess I’m wondering if by her reactions that I’m doing it ‘well’—her calling me fake, like she’s talking to a brick wall, etc.

I’m sure she probably feels a loss of control—I didn’t react according to script when we went out and had that dinner—I’m sure she expected me to be angry or sad—rather, I didn’t say a whole lot, tried to validate, and thanked her for the chance to find someone I could truly be happy with (also wonder if THAT might be the source of her question about me having someone else).

Not to get all ‘doth protest too much,’ but I’m not in an affair, and I don’t think I’m anywhere close. Still trying to keep tight boundaries with the women in my life.

Trying to work on detachment—but not getting s*cked into her craziness is hard for me in the moment, especially in light of last night. Validating by repeating the last thing she said as a question has been rather positive.

180’ing on a lot—need to get back in to exercise now that I’ve basically kicked the illness from last week. I also did my best not to escalate in last night’s discussion. Trying to look her in the eyes. Trying to listen to her more. Avoid ‘you’ or ‘always’ or ‘never’ statements. Stating my needs better ‘I need from you,’ ‘What I need from you...’ One thing I used to do that she brought up last night that hurt her a ton during our MR was that she would point something out to me and I would overreact and spiral and go all ‘well that means I’m a terrible husband’ and this and that and the other. I feel terrible that I did that (I probably picked that up from my parents—I know it’s weak to blame others, though), but I haven’t done that in a long time (at least a few months, if not longer). I’m trying to kick a lot of the bad emotional habits and hang-ups that have held me back.

GAL’ing is difficult right now, honestly.

I am doubling down on love for the kiddos—they are getting tons of attention, especially YS.

What’s weird is that W this morning sends me a text: Anything you need me to grab from the grocery? I’m going to to try and swing by today

Just weird. ‘Normalcy,’ like last night barely happened.


M: 36
W: 30
T: 9
M: 7

S6 (OS)
S7mo (YS)

ILYBINILWY BD: Feb. ‘18

W Wants S / D BD: 1/4/19

H / W still in-house

D papers from W: 3/14/19
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Originally Posted by Bo562


But yeah the rewriting: Oh back in October I really wasn’t planning on leaving—BUT WHAT YOU DID sealed the deal for this. Of course—it’s my fault.


Wow, this is like a mirror image of what my W said to me. All of the "justifications" she is using for why she wants a D are from my actions or words AFTER the BD in September. She points to one specific conversation I had with my best friend that she heard over a security camera she was listening in on and claims that is when she made the decision, 100%, to D. #1, she admits to only hearing bits and pieces of the conversation and #2, she is directly taking stuff out of context and twisting it to make me out to be the biggest a$$ on the face of the planet. What she thinks I said is so far from the truth I can't even believe it. But, that requires using logic and as we all know, logic isn't something on a WW or WAW's radar.


M: 34 W:34
D:7 D:6 S:3

M: 9.5 years T: 12

OM found & BD (by me): 9/19/18
IHS begins
W informs me she's moving out: 11/28/18
W files: 12/21/18
D Final: 2/25/19
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Wanted,

What’s bizarre (I mean, what’s not bizarre at this point), is that last night she told me that she allegedly has been DONE for the last year-and-a-half or so (since I guess mid-2017 if her timeline is to be believed).

So, which is it:

Done since mid-2017

ILYBINILWY BD in Feb. 2018 where she told me she wasn’t sure she wanted to even be married to me

Or October when she first mentioned a break / S

But my reacting to her proposing a break / S is what did things in?!?!?!?! Oh yes


M: 36
W: 30
T: 9
M: 7

S6 (OS)
S7mo (YS)

ILYBINILWY BD: Feb. ‘18

W Wants S / D BD: 1/4/19

H / W still in-house

D papers from W: 3/14/19
Joined: Nov 2018
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Steve,

I had the realization: I wonder if W is calling me ‘fake’ and all that because I’m not reacting the way she expects.

That I’m establishing new behavior patterns and uprooting a lot of the old habits that I used to have (that she keeps referring to and beating me up about).

Maybe she is calling me a fake because she is looking for the old Bo, and can’t see something new through the WAS fog.


M: 36
W: 30
T: 9
M: 7

S6 (OS)
S7mo (YS)

ILYBINILWY BD: Feb. ‘18

W Wants S / D BD: 1/4/19

H / W still in-house

D papers from W: 3/14/19
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Originally Posted by Bo562
Steve,

I had the realization: I wonder if W is calling me ‘fake’ and all that because I’m not reacting the way she expects.

That I’m establishing new behavior patterns and uprooting a lot of the old habits that I used to have (that she keeps referring to and beating me up about).

Maybe she is calling me a fake because she is looking for the old Bo, and can’t see something new through the WAS fog.


Very possible!! I've told this story before but right before my W returned to the being committed to the marriage, we took a trip to a church marriage retreat. It was on that retreat that she rebelled against the marriage for the last time. But on the way home we were really enjoying each other's company. We had pulled into a drive thru to get food. She was saying something silly. I laughed, repeated it the way she said it (in a, wow that's funny way), and laughed again. She turned, looked at me, and said "who are you?" Previous to BD her silliness would have annoyed me, and I would have impatiently reacted in a negative way.

So it's possible her fake claim is her way of not believing your changes. It takes a long time to trust that someone has changed. Anyone can change for a short time to attain an outcome we desire. It takes time and consistency to prove true change.


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Originally Posted by Bo562
Wanted,

What’s bizarre (I mean, what’s not bizarre at this point), is that last night she told me that she allegedly has been DONE for the last year-and-a-half or so (since I guess mid-2017 if her timeline is to be believed).

So, which is it:

Done since mid-2017

ILYBINILWY BD in Feb. 2018 where she told me she wasn’t sure she wanted to even be married to me

Or October when she first mentioned a break / S

But my reacting to her proposing a break / S is what did things in?!?!?!?! Oh yes


Yes, I got the same thing, basically. Right after BD, my W mentioned that “she had been checked out for quite a long time.”

This might not directly apply to what we are discussing but it sort of in the same “thread” so to speak. she said something else the day after BD that has stuck with me this entire time. She made a comment about how once women know they are out, they are out. However, men are the opposite and try to do everything to try to make things better. Subtle hint? That’s how I took it. The part about men sounds an awful lot like “too little too late” as well.

I’ve become acutely aware that with a WW, from my experience, the goal posts continue to move.

Last edited by Wanted1; 01/17/19 04:58 AM.

M: 34 W:34
D:7 D:6 S:3

M: 9.5 years T: 12

OM found & BD (by me): 9/19/18
IHS begins
W informs me she's moving out: 11/28/18
W files: 12/21/18
D Final: 2/25/19
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/journaling and drying off

Originally Posted by LB55


This whole thing as I am learning is not about making her want you back; its about making yourself a man that anyone would want to be with. She may see the changes and think twice; she may never look back. Either way if you work on yourself you come out ready for taking on the world.



I need to keep this in mind, given my thoughts vacillating earlier about do I want W back, or should I look forward to all the lovely women down the road.

The reason I’m ‘drying off’ is that a handyman attempted to replace a kitchen faucet earlier this afternoon, and in doing so he flooded the kitchen, but not before soaking both him and I from head to toe (I was drenched hoodie to shorts and sandals). I was watching him work, and once I started to hear and see the water increase I knew trouble was quickly coming—and boy did it come.

W is overwhelmed by everything from tonight, supposedly—she’s eating cookies and watching videos right now. I’m planning on being home from school / work again tomorrow—thought OS would be home sick again tomorrow, but now I’ll also be here to oversee faucet repairs and kitchen clean-up.

What I’ve noticed in today’s happenings is that I don’t think I went negative or angry. It was more of a “let’s deal with it and git ‘er done” mindset, and I pointed out to W that “hey you know what didn’t get wet—the kitchen dish towels” (oh the irony). And they were directly opposite the sink—but the handyman and I absorbed most of the spraying water, and everything else shot off / trickled to the sides. She found that amusing. We also counted our blessings for tonight—that her mom was here to help with at least one of the kids (she was here to be with OS), virtually nothing irreplaceable was damaged or destroyed. We have a cat (inherited it when I married W), and W thanked the cat for not heading towards the water, and she mentioned that there is an inappropriate joke to be made there somewhere—she didn’t finish the comment, but I knew exactly what she was thinking. It’s a joke she’s made before, about another name for a cat being wet. I played coy while loading the dishwasher and asked her ‘oh, there’s an inappropriate joke there?’ Every now and then, shades of the W that I married.

I need to keep in mind last night’s conversation with W, and balance tonight against what she talked about last night. That I need to keep in mind that if she does decide to kick me to the curb, I’m not exactly going to be at her beck and call for stuff like this—I tend to take the lead on getting maintenance taken care of around the apartment (and I interface with our leasing company to coordinate that stuff), and in making sure the cars get serviced when needed. Oh, you’re getting repairs down at the little apartment that’s part of bird-nesting? So what needs fixing at the townhouse in SB—did I call the leasing company? Yeah, not my day to be there, so you’re on your own. Take off work. Ask your mom for help. Or maybe OM, if he exists.

W has been pretty nice to me all things considered—be so so careful, Bo. Don’t get taken in by her. She asked me if I wanted anything from the grocery this morning (I should have ignored that text tbh); as we were finishing cleaning up she told me that she brought me home her lunch leftovers from work, and she apologized for eating all the chicken from it; she was talking with me and eating cookies, and she offered me a cookie “do you want a cookie? I realize I’ve been standing here all this time and....”

It’s also hard for me to not notice W and what she is wearing—maybe she’s starting to ovulate and I’m picking up on the hormones—don’t know. I’ve gone back and forth in the forum about how physically attracted I am to W—but tonight, like most nights, she’s been walking around in a cami, bra and blue jeans (she does that an awful lot recently—it’s probably easier for breast-feeding YS). She’s asked me what my turn-ons are, and I told her that is one of them—I absolutely love that look. To be fair, I’m sure most women would look really really good in a cami, bra and blue jeans. I also know that most women would probably treat me a h*ll of a lot better than W has been recently. So, ladies who want to get my attention in the future—walk around and keep close company with me while wearing a cami, bra and jeans and I’ll probably notice you, but especially if you’ve got a great heart and a great personality. Need both relative good looks and a great personality / heart to win my attention and devotion. That said, I’m in one of those stretches where I really just want (wait, want is the wrong word, crave is the better word)—crave the company of an amazing woman—to treat well, to build something amazing with, to have and hold, to see and experience the softness of her body. /sigh

And I’m telling myself to not get suckered in by W—“oh man she sure looks nice tonight.” Hey Bo, check yourself—not even 24 hours ago she basically threatened to serve you with divorce papers and potentially get a court order to rip you away from your home where your 2 beloved kids live. She repeatedly made points about how much you’ve hurt her over the years and how it’s your fault she’s unhappy—that back in October you’re the one who pushed her into accepting D as a reality. Think with the upstairs head tonight, and don’t be fooled by her acting all nice and looking all nice.

A final thought / reflection from others’ previous posts:

A fair number of commenters on my sitch have good reason to believe that W is having an A. I believe it was Steve who mentioned that a woman doesn’t need a place to find herself—she needs a place to sleep with someone. In the parenting plan, I believe there was a section about significant others / sexual partners not being permitted around the kids without the other person’s permission. Since the kids will be at the townhouse for ‘nesting,’ that permission probably won’t apply to the other place (!) W mentioned last night that if we go through with each of us rotating between the two places, that she doesn’t need much at the other place. Wonder why right? That if she is indeed having an A, it would be in the bed that I sleep in while it’s my turn to be there. Ew that is so f*cking gross on so many levels.

Last edited by Bo562; 01/17/19 06:48 AM.

M: 36
W: 30
T: 9
M: 7

S6 (OS)
S7mo (YS)

ILYBINILWY BD: Feb. ‘18

W Wants S / D BD: 1/4/19

H / W still in-house

D papers from W: 3/14/19
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Bo,

Have you read my sitch? Start to current? My Ex would do things that I wouldn't outwardly react, but internally I would be like WTF. I don't think I even I wrote about them all on my thread. She would want bathroom privacy and not be naked or even be her underwear around me.....unless she was temp checking. One night I am hiding out in the master closet on the phone removing her from my cc. At this point she had booted S3 from his bed and was making him sleep on the floor. Anyway she comes into the master closet in panties and a camisole and plops down in front of me in a provocative open legged position. I said to her where are your yoga pants, she said she was just too hot to wear them. Another wtf moment mentally, and boy did I want to pounce. I didn't, instead I was nonchalant... another temp check. Your W knows what gets your motor running she is likely temp checking you to make sure your still on the hook. I look back at BD to D and wow Ex had attempted a lot of manipulation. DB helps you avoid that, even when you don't realize it.

Also I think Steve is very correct. She may be in an EA, PA, or her A could be all in her head, but she is going to want to move out to act on it. Its damage control so they can move on with their image intact .


H(37) W(35)
D8, D5, S3
T20, M13
BD 8/31/18
EA Discovered 9/13/18
Mediation 10/3/18
W files for D 10/12/18
W moves out 11/10/18
EA confirmed 12/25/18
D Final 1/10/19
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TF,

I’ve been biting my tongue a lot on any sort of snarky comments she would make. It’s a 180 for me—I’m trying not to be baited.

Still on the hook—this may sound naive, but on the hook for what?

Most of the time recently, W walking around like that doesn’t really do anything for me.

She could very well have been temp-checking me last night when I was sitting on the couch, and she came over to me, wearing what I described earlier, and offered me a cookie. So she’s in front of me looking like that. I honestly should have declined the cookie.

2 nights ago when we had our talk she looked all frumpy—and at times I could see shades of her mom in how she looked.

Like I said, I’m sure a lot of other women would look just as good as she does doing that, but I’m also certain that could treat me better than she is doing right now.

I don’t finding leaving marriages and potentially breaking up families all that attractive—physically or emotionally.


M: 36
W: 30
T: 9
M: 7

S6 (OS)
S7mo (YS)

ILYBINILWY BD: Feb. ‘18

W Wants S / D BD: 1/4/19

H / W still in-house

D papers from W: 3/14/19
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Let me clear. I have no idea if she is actively in an A of any type. However, I can guarantee seeing someone is defintiely on her radar if she isn't. That is why WW want separate living arrangements. I know in my sitch, when I heard that from another anti-D expert (not MWD) it really hit home.


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Steve,

I understand—I have no firm proof, just my suspicions that I’ve mentioned before.

When she S/D BD’ed me earlier this month, she told me that she wasn’t sure if she’d be happier with anyone else. I know, believe nothing they say.

W did propose the other night that she could always stay with her mom (and I think take the boys with her in that instance, too?)

But the idea of if there is someone else for her down the road, and they’re fooling around (or worse) in that other place where I also sleep half-time—that’s.....not appealing at all, to say the least.


M: 36
W: 30
T: 9
M: 7

S6 (OS)
S7mo (YS)

ILYBINILWY BD: Feb. ‘18

W Wants S / D BD: 1/4/19

H / W still in-house

D papers from W: 3/14/19
Joined: Nov 2018
Posts: 536
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Hokay.....have a phone conversation with L on Monday afternoon to talk through W’s threats from the other night, and what my options are.

Gave L’s assistant / secretary some info, which I described above.

Suggestions on anything I should also ask / talk about with L?


M: 36
W: 30
T: 9
M: 7

S6 (OS)
S7mo (YS)

ILYBINILWY BD: Feb. ‘18

W Wants S / D BD: 1/4/19

H / W still in-house

D papers from W: 3/14/19
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Originally Posted by Bo562
TF,

I’ve been biting my tongue a lot on any sort of snarky comments she would make. It’s a 180 for me—I’m trying not to be baited.

Still on the hook—this may sound naive, but on the hook for what?

Most of the time recently, W walking around like that doesn’t really do anything for me.

She could very well have been temp-checking me last night when I was sitting on the couch, and she came over to me, wearing what I described earlier, and offered me a cookie. So she’s in front of me looking like that. I honestly should have declined the cookie.

2 nights ago when we had our talk she looked all frumpy—and at times I could see shades of her mom in how she looked.

Like I said, I’m sure a lot of other women would look just as good as she does doing that, but I’m also certain that could treat me better than she is doing right now.

I don’t finding leaving marriages and potentially breaking up families all that attractive—physically or emotionally.



Bo,

She is temp checking you to see if you are on the hook. It means if you are still in pursuit mode, if she has you by the balls, if you are ripe for the picking, if she can manipulate you, if you are still willing to eat the crumbs she is sending your way.

Also if she offers your a cookie to eat and you want to eat it then take it, say thanks, and go back to what you were doing. Nonchalant and no 2 F's given.

Last edited by Twofeet; 01/17/19 07:23 PM.

H(37) W(35)
D8, D5, S3
T20, M13
BD 8/31/18
EA Discovered 9/13/18
Mediation 10/3/18
W files for D 10/12/18
W moves out 11/10/18
EA confirmed 12/25/18
D Final 1/10/19
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Ugh......I really just need to GTFO when W wants to talk with me.

She came up to me while I was washing bottles for YS, and she told me that she wants to resolve things between us before this September. Why? So she can go for her training this fall, and someone is retiring so she will be able to get a spot at her same office, with the same supervisor she currently has. I told her that I would need to think about that.

Then this prompted essentially a replay of Tuesday night.

She rehashes my fault “why can I never get a straight answer out of you?” “Why should I trust that you will change when you never have for the last 4 years?” And on and on and on.

I really, really think she is trying to go after an ‘abuse’ angle on me for later, if need be. She talked about how I would do things that hurt her, intentionally or unintentionally. She called that abuse—that I keep doing things that hurt her, whether or not I intend to. Once she said that, that’s where my mind raced to—that if things escalate between us, she could serve me papers and get a court order ordering me out of the house, claiming some sort of threat or abuse.

She said she doesn’t want to be my wife.

She then brought up that if I want any chance at reconciling, I should try to work with her on things.

She said that she would consider going to MC with me—under her conditions, that it is a secular one, and that we go as married, but separated (if that makes sense).

She also asked if she needs to get a lawyer. She wants me to seriously consider her proposal—because she believes that it will be fairer than a family court judge, and she really doesn’t want to fight me, but she will if she needs to. She said she doesn’t want to put OS in front of a judge and have him be asked who he wants to live with. (Guilt, manipulation, I know.).

I’m trying to DB as best as I can but saying ‘I need time to think about that’ when she proposes some heavier things to me (like resolving things by September), but she just goes bananas—she gets very emotional, like she’s going to cry. I’m trying to at least not escalate things (which for me, is a vast improvement than what I used to do). I tried validating, but it’s getting me nowhere. She wants to know what I’m thinking and why I’m thinking what I do and doing what I do. Why does she care so much about this?

A little while later after the conversation, I was prepping tomorrow’s dinner, and she was getting YS’ bottles together. I noticed she packed some breast milk cubes into a bottle, and said ‘using ice cubes?’ Trying to DB by not totally ignoring her, but then she tells me that stress impacts breast milk production—and that her milk production has been way down since Tuesday (when we had our late night chat). I told her that you can do what you can do, and she said to me as she walked out ‘And YOU can do your part.’

Good thing I will be talking with L on Monday afternoon—something just tells me that if things escalate, she wants to play the emotionally abusive card against me.

So tonight was basically a big failure.


M: 36
W: 30
T: 9
M: 7

S6 (OS)
S7mo (YS)

ILYBINILWY BD: Feb. ‘18

W Wants S / D BD: 1/4/19

H / W still in-house

D papers from W: 3/14/19
Joined: Nov 2018
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/journaling to close out the day, hopefully

Spent most of today waiting around on / with the handyman to fix / clean-up yesterday faucet fiasco.

Today in GAL: 30 push-ups (getting back into exercise), and went out to grab some coffee in the late afternoon (out to Starbucks) for a pick-me-up, but also to just get out and be around others, if only for a little while. $2.75 coffee is a small price to pay to keep some semblance of sanity.

I’ve read on the forums about others’ dating adventures. While I’m nowhere near close to a resolution on things with W (see above), I had something of an epiphany this afternoon.

The idea of going on dates, making out, and having sex (but for me, within an MR) all sound fantastic—and while all that seems so far away at present, I realize that I’m one day closer to those things happening again—whether it is with W, or with someone else down the road.

Last edited by Bo562; 01/18/19 06:39 AM.

M: 36
W: 30
T: 9
M: 7

S6 (OS)
S7mo (YS)

ILYBINILWY BD: Feb. ‘18

W Wants S / D BD: 1/4/19

H / W still in-house

D papers from W: 3/14/19
Joined: Aug 2012
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Originally Posted by Bo562
She rehashes my fault “why can I never get a straight answer out of you?” “Why should I trust that you will change when you never have for the last 4 years?” And on and on and on.

I really, really think she is trying to go after an ‘abuse’ angle on me for later, if need be. She talked about how I would do things that hurt her, intentionally or unintentionally. She called that abuse—that I keep doing things that hurt her, whether or not I intend to. Once she said that, that’s where my mind raced to—that if things escalate between us, she could serve me papers and get a court order ordering me out of the house, claiming some sort of threat or abuse.


Here's the thing Bo, she probably does believe what she's saying, or at least wants to believe it. She's in full-on WAS mode and looking for reasons to justify her behavior and desire to end things. She no doubt has an enabler or two or three (male or female or both) that are offering her tons of validation right now, so they are telling her what she wants to hear (oh poor you, you've suffered so long, you are doing the right thing). So that feeds into her worldview. All you can do is detach from her as much as possible and keep your L informed of what's going on.

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She said she doesn’t want to be my wife.


Well there's a newsflash.

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She then brought up that if I want any chance at reconciling, I should try to work with her on things.


Dangling the carrot out there again. When she says these things are you now seeing it for the manipulation it is?

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She said that she would consider going to MC with me—under her conditions, that it is a secular one, and that we go as married, but separated (if that makes sense).


What was your response to this? Hopefully you see now it's only a tactic to her. She doesn't give a rip about trying to salvage the M, not right now.

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She also asked if she needs to get a lawyer. She wants me to seriously consider her proposal—because she believes that it will be fairer than a family court judge, and she really doesn’t want to fight me, but she will if she needs to. She said she doesn’t want to put OS in front of a judge and have him be asked who he wants to live with. (Guilt, manipulation, I know.).


Wow she really goes for it in these R talks. Threats, manipulation tactics, incentives, offering hope, crushing hope. It's amazing to me that she (and many other WAS's) are not willing to negotiate a single point. It's "my way or we go to court and battle it out".

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I’m trying to DB as best as I can but saying ‘I need time to think about that’ when she proposes some heavier things to me (like resolving things by September)


What does that mean about "resolving things"? Does she mean she wants the D completed by then?

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So tonight was basically a big failure.


How so? Sounds to me like status quo. Nothing gained nothing lost over the previous similar talk. If you maintained your cool throughout then chalk it up as a success.


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Originally Posted by Bo562
She came up to me while I was washing bottles for YS, and she told me that she wants to resolve things between us before this September. Why? So she can go for her training this fall, and someone is retiring so she will be able to get a spot at her same office, with the same supervisor she currently has. I told her that I would need to think about that.


Ok I am not seeing how resolving things by September....or not... helps or prevents this in any way? This is pure manipulation, and trying to find a reason to move on her "proposal". This is typical WAW/WW thinking. "These two things are unrelated but if I can somehow link them then that gives me leverage to get him to move forward with MY plan."

I do see her being capable of anything at this point. Bo, you may want to start recording your interactions with her. To prove there is no emotional abuse. That if anything she is the abusive one (both verbally and emotionally). Also, talk to your L, but most of the time if there is no physical abuse they are not going to order you out of the house. so she may try to continue to escalate. BE ON YOUR TOES. This means no throwing of things, no punching walls or anything else, etc. Plenty of WAWs have pushed their LBH to the point where they punch a car or break things in the house, and then use that to get them out of the house as a "threat of physical violence". Don't fall into that trap.

Hang in there, she is angry that you aren't "falling in line". Really that is a good thing.


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Originally Posted by AnotherStander


Here's the thing Bo, she probably does believe what she's saying, or at least wants to believe it. She's in full-on WAS mode and looking for reasons to justify her behavior and desire to end things. She no doubt has an enabler or two or three (male or female or both) that are offering her tons of validation right now, so they are telling her what she wants to hear (oh poor you, you've suffered so long, you are doing the right thing). So that feeds into her worldview. All you can do is detach from her as much as possible and keep your L informed of what's going on.


It’s at least her IC, probably the MIL, and who knows who else.

Part of posting here is journaling for me—so I can hash out the thoughts to the L later.

She also mentioned that the problems in our relationship come from both of us—which is true, and straight out of DB. But all I’m hearing is how I’M THE PROBLEM, and her implication to me is that I need to get my shiz together.

Originally Posted by AnotherStander
Well there's a newsflash.


And I straight up asked her: So, you said you don’t want to be my wife, but then you said you want to go to marriage counseling?

Originally Posted by AnotherStander
Dangling the carrot out there again. When she says these things are you now seeing it for the manipulation it is?


Yup. Just the inconsistencies make no sense at all. “I don’t want to be your wife.” “I’ll go to marriage counseling if....”

Honestly, at this point, why do I want to be married to, or reconcile with, someone who’s just so f@cking bananas right now?

Originally Posted by AnotherStander
What was your response to this? Hopefully you see now it's only a tactic to her. She doesn't give a rip about trying to salvage the M, not right now.


I told her I would need to think about that one (tried to go classic DB).

Originally Posted by AnotherStander
Wow she really goes for it in these R talks. Threats, manipulation tactics, incentives, offering hope, crushing hope. It's amazing to me that she (and many other WAS's) are not willing to negotiate a single point. It's "my way or we go to court and battle it out".


Right. If she really wants out, why not negotiate her way out a little more?

Originally Posted by AnotherStander
What does that mean about "resolving things"? Does she mean she wants the D completed by then?


I mentioned earlier that to separate (for any length of time), she would have to start the divorce paperwork (this sounds so bass-awkwards, but then again it is Cali). What she wants to do is get the custody squared away (parenting plan / bird-nesting or whatever), and the start the paperwork in the courts, we lived separated, and then re-assess whether we follow-through with legal divorce later (guessing September is about when she wants to re-assess). She’d be gone for 3-ish months by then, so she’d want to figure it out by then. I mean, we’d already be separated by then—it’s just that she’d be 3000 miles away for 3 additional months. Why not more separation? (I know, I know: unless she wants to GGW it up or A it up while she’s in training).

Originally Posted by AnotherStander
How so? Sounds to me like status quo. Nothing gained nothing lost over the previous similar talk. If you maintained your cool throughout then chalk it up as a success.


At least it felt like a big failure initially. I should have just walked away from her when she started emotionally wailing on me—between that and her rehashing the past, I feel like such a putz. Believe it or not, I’m not as emotionally worked up as I thought I would be. I’m considering whether or not I even want to still be involved with someone who is like this.

I’m seeing her statements / inconsistencies as part of the WAS fog.

I also didn’t escalate, which is huge for me, and a big contrast over prior dynamics. She wants responses but isn’t totally getting them, but she blames me for that anyway (you always, you never...)

Last edited by Bo562; 01/18/19 02:08 PM.

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Originally Posted by Steve85

Ok I am not seeing how resolving things by September....or not... helps or prevents this in any way? This is pure manipulation, and trying to find a reason to move on her "proposal".


It helps...her. She gets ‘clarity’—she just wants to steamroll ahead on this. Hence why I asked to think about it.

She’s also said that she will put off this training if she absolutely has to—if the boys aren’t in a good place. But she wants to settle things with me (one way or the other) so she can move this forward, and then get the boys in a good place (I guess?)

Why should I help her leave me? And I have zero interest in vacating the household any sooner than I absolutely have to. Why—so she could later on claim abandonment? No thanks.

Originally Posted by Steve85
I do see her being capable of anything at this point. Bo, you may want to start recording your interactions with her. To prove there is no emotional abuse. That if anything she is the abusive one (both verbally and emotionally). Also, talk to your L, but most of the time if there is no physical abuse they are not going to order you out of the house. so she may try to continue to escalate. BE ON YOUR TOES. This means no throwing of things, no punching walls or anything else, etc. Plenty of WAWs have pushed their LBH to the point where they punch a car or break things in the house, and then use that to get them out of the house as a "threat of physical violence". Don't fall into that trap.


I do, too. Who knows what may come next for her.

I’ll ask L about “if there is no physical abuse they are not going to order you out of the house.”

I’m not a physically violent or aggressive person. I know she doesn’t want me like this now, but I know that she was (is?) into the Fifty Shades of Gray thing, so she wanted more sexual aggression from me, but I didn’t want to slide over into abuse, so I held back on that.

I’ll do my best to keep it together—I’m sure exercise wil help work out any aggression, or at least calm me down enough that I won’t get aggressive / violent later on.

Originally Posted by Steve85
Hang in there, she is angry that you aren't "falling in line". Really that is a good thing.


100% she is upset that I’m not doing what she wants. But she’s supposedly always been unhappy about that, and that’s what she wants me to change. She wants me to cooperate with her and put both of us aside for the sake of the kids.

What’s odd is that last night she’s accused me of anger towards her.

My naivety is showing—how is this (her anger on this) a good thing?

Last edited by Bo562; 01/18/19 04:01 PM.

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Go ahead and 2x4 me for this if I need or deserve it....

On Tuesday, she went on about how she needs / wants a partner, and later mentioned that it is hard getting everyone out the door in the AM.

In an attempt to validate and listen to her, I offered a proposal: That I still get up on weekday school mornings early to shower / get dressed, but then I stick around until 6:45–7:00 or so to help with the boys and take some stuff down to her car to help with that.

I offered to help with the boys as much as I can in the AM, I still get up early to work on some work stuff early that I would instead bring home (like I would do at school).

The 180’s on this? Listening to her, proposing a solution (which may NOT be all that helpful as I think it could be but whatever), following through (she says she wants actions—not words from me, and I started that this morning, as she was home with the boys on Wednesday, and I helped take YS downstairs to the car on Thursday as I was home for faucet repairs).

Doing it to be more present to boys (and potentially avoid that I’m indifferent to her and the boys should it ever come to that later on), to prove to myself (and possibly her?) THAT I CAN CHANGE (and give a concrete example of that), but also to be a better father and husband (to W, or someone else down the road).

Of course, I could also be setting myself up to be used by her. I’ve heard it said that I shouldn’t make myself so available to her, and why should I make things easier for her especially if she wants to leave. I understand that, but I’m trying to do this for myself and the boys—keep that in the vision ahead of me.


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She clearly doesn't know what she's talking about. There is no way a judge is going to ask a 6 year old kid what his wishes are. They do that when the kids are older (teenagers) to get an idea of what they want. A 6 year old doesn't know what he wants. They aren't mature enough to make such decisions.

The test that all jurisdictions use in custody situations is "best interest of the child."

Don't let her scare tactics and manipulation mess with you.


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Originally Posted by Bo562
Originally Posted by Steve85

Ok I am not seeing how resolving things by September....or not... helps or prevents this in any way? This is pure manipulation, and trying to find a reason to move on her "proposal".


It helps...her. She gets ‘clarity’—she just wants to steamroll ahead on this. Hence why I asked to think about it.

She’s also said that she will put off this training if she absolutely has to—if the boys aren’t in a good place. But she wants to settle things with me (one way or the other) so she can move this forward, and then get the boys in a good place (I guess?)

Why should I help her leave me? And I have zero interest in vacating the household any sooner than I absolutely have to. Why—so she could later on claim abandonment? No thanks.

Originally Posted by Steve85
I do see her being capable of anything at this point. Bo, you may want to start recording your interactions with her. To prove there is no emotional abuse. That if anything she is the abusive one (both verbally and emotionally). Also, talk to your L, but most of the time if there is no physical abuse they are not going to order you out of the house. so she may try to continue to escalate. BE ON YOUR TOES. This means no throwing of things, no punching walls or anything else, etc. Plenty of WAWs have pushed their LBH to the point where they punch a car or break things in the house, and then use that to get them out of the house as a "threat of physical violence". Don't fall into that trap.


I do, too. Who knows what may come next for her.

I’ll ask L about “if there is no physical abuse they are not going to order you out of the house.”

I’m not a physically violent or aggressive person. I know she doesn’t want me like this now, but I know that she was (is?) into the Fifty Shades of Gray thing, so she wanted more sexual aggression from me, but I didn’t want to slide over into abuse, so I held back on that.

I’ll do my best to keep it together—I’m sure exercise wil help work out any aggression, or at least calm me down enough that I won’t get aggressive / violent later on.

Originally Posted by Steve85
Hang in there, she is angry that you aren't "falling in line". Really that is a good thing.


100% she is upset that I’m not doing what she wants. But she’s supposedly always been unhappy about that, and that’s what she wants me to change. She wants me to cooperate with her and put both of us aside for the sake of the kids.

What’s odd is that last night she’s accused me of anger towards her.

My naivety is showing—how is this (her anger on this) a good thing?


Because you aren't letting her emotions dictate actions in your part. Some guys would have rolled over and just gave in. The good part of you doing what's best for you and your kids. Whether she gets angry about it or not it's irrelevant.


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Originally Posted by Wanted1
She clearly doesn't know what she's talking about. There is no way a judge is going to ask a 6 year old kid what his wishes are. They do that when the kids are older (teenagers) to get an idea of what they want. A 6 year old doesn't know what he wants. They aren't mature enough to make such decisions.

The test that all jurisdictions use in custody situations is "best interest of the child."

Don't let her scare tactics and manipulation mess with you.


That’s the thing, Wanted—she totally believes she knows what she’s talking about. Either she’s correct, her research / assumptions are wrong, or she’s getting bad advice. I’m inclined to believe the last two.

What I am concerned about is the whole ‘best interest of the child’—especially with YS breast-feeding (until the fall, or about when she leaves for her training).

She cites the fact that judges supposedly side with the mother most (if not all) of the time.

And she could claim that I’m emotionally abusive and creating a toxic environment for the kids. She is painting the impression (right or not) that I could lose big on this—take the deal now.

I’m not necessarily willing to fight her on custody. I don’t want divorce, but I do acknowledge that co-parenting will be part of the reality if it gets that far. I just don’t want to leave the current residence. She doesn’t want to leave the children, either. But I’m not going to give up claims on living in our residence so easily.

She supposedly wants out of the MR so badly—why should I be the one to leave?

Last edited by Bo562; 01/18/19 05:59 PM.

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Bo,

I'm gonna go big picture here. It looks like you are spinning, just emotionally all over the place. Work on your detachment and some of these things will seem little, and you will be able to figure out more of this on your own.

You are letting her control your thoughts, moods, and actions when you should be in control.

You got this.


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Originally Posted by Bo562
I mentioned earlier that to separate (for any length of time), she would have to start the divorce paperwork (this sounds so bass-awkwards, but then again it is Cali). What she wants to do is get the custody squared away (parenting plan / bird-nesting or whatever), and the start the paperwork in the courts, we lived separated, and then re-assess whether we follow-through with legal divorce later (guessing September is about when she wants to re-assess). She’d be gone for 3-ish months by then, so she’d want to figure it out by then. I mean, we’d already be separated by then—it’s just that she’d be 3000 miles away for 3 additional months. Why not more separation? (I know, I know: unless she wants to GGW it up or A it up while she’s in training).


OK I think I get it. I'm wondering if she wants to rush this and get you to agree to everything because how else would she explain to the courts how she accused you of abuse and getting a RO against you or whatever, but then needing you to watch the kids while she's away for 3 months.

So can you clarify this just so we understand how close together or far apart the two of you are on an agreement:

- What custody agreement does she want? I think you've said it's 50-50 with the kids staying at home and the two of you switching in and out of the home (nesting)?

- What custody agreement do you want? I think all you've said is you don't want to leave home and you don't want the nesting agreement. But assuming S and D do happen, what agreement would you be OK with?

It sounds like you both can agree to 50-50, but you do not agree to nesting out of the house half the time. You would rather she move out and live elsewhere and then you do a 50-50 split like most of the separated/ divorced world does? If that's what you want, have you made that clear to her? It sounds like you just keep telling her you'll think about it, which just continues to make you look wishy-washy and indecisive. Whatever you want, tell her what it is and then stick to your guns. If she yells and screams and threatens to go to court then tell her you are prepared to do that. Also, tell her why you don't want a nesting arrangement. I don't think you've made that clear either. You say you want to stay in the house as long as possible, and that you don't want to give up time with the kids. But you WILL have to give up time with the kids, that is inevitable. And if you can't afford the house on your own then it is also inevitable that at some point you will have to leave it. With that in mind, what are your goals after S and D?

I'm reminded of when my ex said she was going to leave (separate) and I told her I would rather her stay and work on the M with me, but if she left I would not stop her and would support her regardless of her decision. A day or two later she asked me why SHE had to be the one to leave. I told her she was the one leaving the M and I should not be inconvenienced anymore that I already was being by it. She told me later that even though it made her mad at the time, she really respected how I handled things, I remained firm and consistent throughout and most of all- CALM. Remember the lighthouse analogy.

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Why should I help her leave me? And I have zero interest in vacating the household any sooner than I absolutely have to. Why—so she could later on claim abandonment? No thanks.


The DB'ing mantra is don't help her, but don't interfere either. I think right now you are interfering by continuing to put her off with the "I need to think about it" comments. I told you before that if you want to think about it then tell her "I need to think this over, can we talk about it on Thursday evening?" or whatever date works for you. Don't just leave it open-ended. Again, you want to be decisive and confident.

Quote
She wants me to cooperate with her and put both of us aside for the sake of the kids.


Well that's not a bad thing. I mean she could have opened with "you need to leave and I want 95% custody, you get the kids every other weekend". The nesting arrangement is a compromise from where she could have started. I understand it doesn't work for you, but my point is she does appear to be thinking about the kids which is something at least.

Originally Posted by Bo562
Go ahead and 2x4 me for this if I need or deserve it....

On Tuesday, she went on about how she needs / wants a partner, and later mentioned that it is hard getting everyone out the door in the AM.

In an attempt to validate and listen to her, I offered a proposal: That I still get up on weekday school mornings early to shower / get dressed, but then I stick around until 6:45–7:00 or so to help with the boys and take some stuff down to her car to help with that.


Hmmm, well I'm not sure I would call it good or bad. In her current mindset there's really nothing you can do to placate her. She'll find a reason to hate you for just about anything. But if you're doing it for the kids then it's OK. Just don't have any expectations that it'll change anything.


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Originally Posted by ovrrnbw
Bo,

I'm gonna go big picture here. It looks like you are spinning, just emotionally all over the place. Work on your detachment and some of these things will seem little, and you will be able to figure out more of this on your own.


Totally feel all over the place today—one moment I’m great, the other I’m a wreck, ready to tear-up in the restroom or have the tears run down my face at our school’s chapel during lunch (both of which were today).

But I have to be strong—in front of my students, and also in front of my boys.

“Daddy’s here!”—OS when I came into his room with W when I heard him get up this morning.

Originally Posted by ovrrnbw
You are letting her control your thoughts, moods, and actions when you should be in control.


Correct. I thought I was more in-control—I’m not letting myself be baited in front of her. But I do need to work on my assertiveness and decisiveness. I come here to journal to let it out.

Originally Posted by ovrrnbw
You got this.


I appreciate the thoughts, Ovr. But I don’t feel like I’ve got this. Some moments my heart hurts, both literally and figuratively.

While I know I probably won’t die from this, some moments I do pray to live out my wedding vows and wonder if I would get called home so that she could have her wish of living life without me, if she really wants it that bad enough. It sounds so so terrible, but I’ve thought about it.

I know it’s doing a number of her—she said her breast milk production is down because she is so stressed about all this. Maybe don’t D your spouse, then? If this is stressing her out so much, why why is she doing this?

Why are we doing this to each other? I feel like it’s the end of the movie ‘The War of the Roses.’ I’d much rather live out the short story by O. Henry ‘The Gift of the Magi’—that’s what I always wanted to live out.

Last edited by Bo562; 01/18/19 09:06 PM.

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Originally Posted by AnotherStander


I'm wondering if she wants to rush this and get you to agree to everything because how else would she explain to the courts how she accused you of abuse and getting a RO against you or whatever, but then needing you to watch the kids while she's away for 3 months.


Unclear—please explain? Sorry in a bit of a mental fog.

Originally Posted by AnotherStander


- What custody agreement does she want? I think you've said it's 50-50 with the kids staying at home and the two of you switching in and out of the home (nesting)?


This is what she wants.

Originally Posted by AnotherStander
It sounds like you both can agree to 50-50, but you do not agree to nesting out of the house half the time. You would rather she move out and live elsewhere and then you do a 50-50 split like most of the separated/ divorced world does? If that's what you want, have you made that clear to her?


Yup. I tried drawing a hard line with her and basically asked her to leave if she wants out. She freaked and isn’t having any of it, because she wants to leave me, not the kids.

What exactly is she expecting? She’s the one who wants out.

Originally Posted by AnotherStander
If she yells and screams and threatens to go to court then tell her you are prepared to do that.


This is basically her right now—gets hyper-emotional, threatens me, asks if she needs a lawyer.

Originally Posted by AnotherStander
You say you want to stay in the house as long as possible, and that you don't want to give up time with the kids. But you WILL have to give up time with the kids, that is inevitable. And if you can't afford the house on your own then it is also inevitable that at some point you will have to leave it. With that in mind, what are your goals after S and D?


You’re right—if this goes through, I’ll have to give up time with the kids, no matter what. W wants to keep kids in the current residence because it’s a really good school system, and even OS has mentioned about how he loves where we live and doesn’t want to move (we haven’t told him anything about us yet, but he’s volunteered that).

Goals after S/D? Unless we recon / piece, try to pursue an annulment (not really interested in discussing the likelihood of that at this time), work on self, love the kids, and hopefully date / find someone new in time. I do know that I am worthy of that, in time.

Originally Posted by AnotherStander
The DB'ing mantra is don't help her, but don't interfere either. I think right now you are interfering by continuing to put her off with the "I need to think about it" comments. I told you before that if you want to think about it then tell her "I need to think this over, can we talk about it on Thursday evening?" or whatever date works for you. Don't just leave it open-ended. Again, you want to be decisive and confident.


Being decisive and confident has been a struggle at various times for me in life. I’m trying so hard to be confident—I struggle with pushback from being confident and maintaining that in front of others.

Originally Posted by AnotherStander


Well that's not a bad thing. I mean she could have opened with "you need to leave and I want 95% custody, you get the kids every other weekend". The nesting arrangement is a compromise from where she could have started. I understand it doesn't work for you, but my point is she does appear to be thinking about the kids which is something at least.


You’re right, as always. She’s not a monster, and I know that. She is trying to consider the kids, but I deep in my heart of hearts know that if she wants to consider the kids, a D doesn’t seem like the answer to her / our problems. It’s also not about what I think / feel at this point.

Originally Posted by AnotherStander


Hmmm, well I'm not sure I would call it good or bad. In her current mindset there's really nothing you can do to placate her. She'll find a reason to hate you for just about anything. But if you're doing it for the kids then it's OK. Just don't have any expectations that it'll change anything.


Everything I say or do just pi$$es her off at this point, pretty much.

Trying to keep the kids in mind, trying to be a better husband / father. I have no expectations that it will change anything between us—I’m trying to change and improve myself in the hope for MR 2.0, or someone else down the road.


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Originally Posted by Yail


Some people need to complete their process before realizing their mistake. Let him complete his process. In the meantime, you're doing work on your own process. Yours will be more fulfilling.



The quote by Napoleon ‘never interfere with your enemy when he is making a mistake’ comes to mind here.

Obviously I’m not trying to view W as the ‘enemy’ (and I hope I never do)....but I try to keep in mind the broader point. I’ve been told by some people here that part of DB’ing is not interfering, and I need to do that in my own sitch. What I’ve also been trying to do in my own sitch is not tip my hand to W—she’s been telling me things and saying things that really make me wonder what is going on, and if she has all of her information correct. But, I’m not exactly gonna go out of my way to correct her when I think she is wrong. If she follows through on this D, then she’ll find out if she’s wrong in time, and maybe that will change her mind. Or not.

I’m trying to put my work in on myself, to fix myself for MR 2.0, or someone else down the road. I sometimes hope that maybe, just maybe, down the road she will realize that she made a huge mistake. I’m not sure where I’ll be or what I’ll be ready for in the event that that happens.

Originally Posted by FlySolo

Now, stop spinning, get a glass of wine or a cup of tea, put on your favorite TV program (something good and soppy or funny and a little ridiculous) and switch off for a bit.


I need to do this. Hence, having a beer tonight and going to bed kinda early (YS is sick again this weekend, so I’ll go to bed to be present to him, and I don’t know what kind of night’s sleep he will have being sick). But I still think about GAL’ing on New Year’s Day, and how utterly fantastic it felt for me. Self-care is crucial.

/journaling

I’m still struggling on whether or not I want to get to reconciling with W. Granted, it’s a long, long way off (D hasn’t even officially started yet), but I’ve thought about her earlier this week saying that recon could be an option. Could she be playing me? It’s possible. I’m honestly just not sure if I want recon with W—at least not in her / our current states.

I had something of a moment of clarity today that I hope will help me with detachment, which is.....

Why should I get myself so worked up over someone who has basically said, on repeated occasions, that she doesn’t want to be my W?

Feb. ‘18: ILYBINILWY

Feb. ‘18: I’m not even sure I want to be married to you

Feb. ‘18: I wish I loved you enough to want to take care of you (when I threw out my back)

Oct. ‘18: When [YS] is in a better place, I think we should take a look at having a break / S

Last week: I don’t want to be your wife

It’s clear she doesn’t want to be my W. I just need to get over it, and over this MR in its current form.


Temp Check Alert?

MIL was over today, and her and W went out for an errand and to pick up dinner this evening.

W told me that before that they would pick up dinner, they would go by Target to get cat litter, but also some lanolin cream.

W then proceeded to tell me that she needs it because she is sore from where YS is feeding, and rubbed near her nipple in front of me. That it gets.....raw.

Cool. TMI. Thanks for telling me about your nipples. And why exactly should I care—not like I have access to them right now, or anything. (I know, probably means I’m nowhere near detached but come on—I don’t want to be your wife, oh my nipples are so raw. Whatever.)

Last edited by Bo562; 01/20/19 05:41 AM.

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Hey everyone,

Phone convo with L tomorrow afternoon—suggestions on what to ask her?

Thank you in advance!


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Originally Posted by Bo562
While I know I probably won’t die from this, some moments I do pray to live out my wedding vows and wonder if I would get called home so that she could have her wish of living life without me, if she really wants it that bad enough. It sounds so so terrible, but I’ve thought about it.


If you start thinking a lot about suicide then that is a sure sign you're slipping into situational depression and should go see a doc ASAP. It happened to me, seemingly came out of nowhere several months after BD. It was the worst feeling ever, like I was a black hole inside. I got on A/D's and they were instrumental in helping me recover. I weaned off after a few months and have never slipped back into it.

Quote
I know it’s doing a number of her—she said her breast milk production is down because she is so stressed about all this. Maybe don’t D your spouse, then? If this is stressing her out so much, why why is she doing this?


Because in her mind right now, staying married to you is worse. That's what you've got to keep in mind. She's in a fog and she thinks staying married to you is the absolute worst possible option. Only time and space will help her get over that.

Originally Posted by Bo562
Originally Posted by AnotherStander


I'm wondering if she wants to rush this and get you to agree to everything because how else would she explain to the courts how she accused you of abuse and getting a RO against you or whatever, but then needing you to watch the kids while she's away for 3 months.


Unclear—please explain? Sorry in a bit of a mental fog.


What I mean is if she is considering accusing you of abuse as you suspect, then she will paint herself into a corner because if she does that and gets full custody of the kids then she can't very well turn around and dump them on you whenever she needs to leave town. And she knows she's going to be gone for 3 months soon and may need you and her parents to watch the kids, so it's easier on her if she can force you to accept her terms now rather than wrestle with that later.

Quote
Yup. I tried drawing a hard line with her and basically asked her to leave if she wants out. She freaked and isn’t having any of it, because she wants to leave me, not the kids.


Well the only difference between her proposal and yours is that with hers the kids stay in the house when it's her turn to have them and with yours she stays in her place when she has them. She doesn't see them any more or less. Maybe she doesn't understand that point, or maybe she thinks she can just drop in on you when you have the kids like everything is normal, who knows.

Quote
You’re right—if this goes through, I’ll have to give up time with the kids, no matter what. W wants to keep kids in the current residence because it’s a really good school system, and even OS has mentioned about how he loves where we live and doesn’t want to move (we haven’t told him anything about us yet, but he’s volunteered that).


She's going to be giving up time with them as well, not sure that has sunk in with her yet. Regarding the school system, when you get a D and you have 50-50 custody, you have to designate a "primary residence" for the kids. That will determine the schools they will attend. So if you stay in the house and the two of you agree to designate it the primary residence then they will keep going to the same school/schools.

Quote
but I deep in my heart of hearts know that if she wants to consider the kids, a D doesn’t seem like the answer to her / our problems.


Absolutely agree. But back to my earlier point, right now in her fog she is so desperate to get out of the M that D is the only "viable option". That may very well change down the road but right now she's going to be very stubborn about it.


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Originally Posted by AnotherStander


Quote
but I deep in my heart of hearts know that if she wants to consider the kids, a D doesn’t seem like the answer to her / our problems.


Absolutely agree. But back to my earlier point, right now in her fog she is so desperate to get out of the M that D is the only "viable option". That may very well change down the road but right now she's going to be very stubborn about it.




I feel the same way about my W. I don't think D is the answer to our problems but she is adamant. AS is right, your wife thinks this is only the way to get out of her current situation. My W insists there is no way I could ever make her happy again and we need to D. Maybe down the road her feelings will change but right now she doesn't see any other way out.


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/journaling

Took down Xmas decorations earlier today

There is a soft H/W gingerbread ornament for "First Married Christmas - 2011" that we put on the tree but never got fixed

There's a metaphor in there somewhere


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/journaling before bed

W was chatting me up after I put YS to bed tonight. Talking to me about a friend of hers who will be getting up-close with the Pope during the next upcoming World Youth Day, and how YS is feeling better (he was sick most of this long weekend).

Trying to keep responses friendly, validating, but minimal.

On one level, I should probably work on a friendship with her, but....I’m really not all that interesting in having her as a female friend. Been there, done that, during the early stages of our relationship.

I have and have had female friends, and I’m sure I can find more if I really want to. Was never really a problem in the past (though, to be fair, I wonder if that was the problem in my younger young-adult years—got friend-zoned a bit too much, but to be fair I did a good amount of friend-zoning too).

What I want / need / deserve is a wife. And more than that, I want to be married to a woman—not a girl.

One of the things that initially attracted me to W was that she seemed not like a lot of the other woman that I’ve come across or pursued before—a number of them had very romanticized or Disney-fied ideas of love, marriage and relationships, and I just got sick of that—I wanted someone different, and I thought W was that woman.

I’ll admit that I’ve not always been the man that she wants, needs or deserves—but I’m looking to change that, and a lot of that starts with my mental attitude (PMA, eliminating NGS tendencies where I can).

Instead of current version of W who tells me that she doesn’t want to be my wife, whatever the next steps are (MR 2.0, or someone else in time), I just know that I want to have a woman as my wife, who is proud to be my wife. I just know and believe that she is out there, and I want to be the man that she needs, wants and deserves, whoever she is, wherever she is.


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Instead of current version of W who tells me that she doesn’t want to be my wife, whatever the next steps are (MR 2.0, or someone else in time), I just know that I want to have a woman as my wife, who is proud to be my wife. I just know and believe that she is out there, and I want to be the man that she needs, wants and deserves, whoever she is, wherever she is.


First focus on Bo. Bo needs to be happy by himself. Bo needs to learn to love himself, and be comfortable with being alone in the world. He needs to learn to be alone without being lonely. If this M doesn't last, then commit to spending 6 months or a year just exploring who you are as a person. Because wife number 2 is probably not going to be substantially different than wife number 1. She will be better in some areas and worse in others. She too will have the potential to be a WAS, so you need to be well-equipped to work hard on your next M to keep her as happy as you reasonably can. Don't be too attached or codependent. Give her time and space when she needs it and care and attention when she needs that. And she might walk at some point anyway, so you need to prepare yourself for that possibility. I'm just giving you a little reality check because I think you're starting to fall in love with a fantasy woman and fantasy marriage much like WAS's do. "Chasing the white rabbit" if you will. You've done a lot of work already, keep at it! That's your path to recovery.

Quote
What I want / need / deserve is a wife.


"Want" is fine because that means you are happy whether you have a wife or not. "Need" is unhealthy, if you need a wife then you are codependent. "Deserve"? I don't really like that word in this context, because a strong relationship is the direct result of hard work and no one is entitled to have that without putting the work in.

Last edited by AnotherStander; 01/22/19 01:45 PM.

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Originally Posted by AnotherStander

First focus on Bo. Bo needs to be happy by himself. Bo needs to learn to love himself, and be comfortable with being alone in the world. He needs to learn to be alone without being lonely. If this M doesn't last, then commit to spending 6 months or a year just exploring who you are as a person. Because wife number 2 is probably not going to be substantially different than wife number 1. She will be better in some areas and worse in others. She too will have the potential to be a WAS, so you need to be well-equipped to work hard on your next M to keep her as happy as you reasonably can. Don't be too attached or codependent. Give her time and space when she needs it and care and attention when she needs that. And she might walk at some point anyway, so you need to prepare yourself for that possibility. I'm just giving you a little reality check because I think you're starting to fall in love with a fantasy woman and fantasy marriage much like WAS's do. "Chasing the white rabbit" if you will. You've done a lot of work already, keep at it! That's your path to recovery.


You’re absolutely right.

One thing I am working on is the whole ‘be happy with self’ and ‘love self.’

I am starting to feel more comfortable with being alone—probably because I’ve been rather alone in this marriage for a while. That said, I can probably see where W is coming from—‘now you know how I feel!’

The few times where I’ve been out without her and the kids recently have been amazing, I’ve felt. I felt so free and so single. Obviously, I do miss the boys, of course.... But I’ve given thought to what could happen if / when things go through and she has the boys and I’ve by myself. I’ve thought about looking into D / S groups in my diocese through the church.

Originally Posted by AnotherStander
She too will have the potential to be a WAS


Don’t they all, really?

But yes I need to not get to attached or codependent, and I’m putting work into my flaws (elements of NGS, forgetfulness). And I don’t want to repeat down the road the mistakes that I’ve made—that terrifies me.

I probably do need a bit of a reality check, but I also am looking to the future and trying to find hope where I can. I’ve thought about to what extent I’ve become the WAS, and what that means for our MR.

6 months to at least a year is what I’ve thought about, too, in case things don’t work out with W. I’m still conflicted on whether or not I want recon with W.

I also know that in this current MR things will probably get much much worse before they get better—who knows where this will lead, and that’s scary, tbh.

Originally Posted by AnotherStander
You've done a lot of work already, keep at it! That's your path to recovery.


I know I’ve put some work in, but I don’t feel like I’ve made a whole lot of progress overall.

Where do you see signs of progress in me / my sitch? I could really use a second set of eyes.

“The only way out is through.”


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Originally Posted by AnotherStander


"Want" is fine because that means you are happy whether you have a wife or not. "Need" is unhealthy, if you need a wife then you are codependent. "Deserve"? I don't really like that word in this context, because a strong relationship is the direct result of hard work and no one is entitled to have that without putting the work in.


Fair enough.

For me, this statement was more about me stating my wants and needs. Especially what I need, in the event of MR 2.0 or someone else down the road (me thinking about what I would need in the event that happens—I’d be interested in someone who only treats me as a W—not going to settle for someone who won’t).

The ‘deserve’ angle is more PMA—I know I’m good enough and I’m make steps to be good enough and even be better, and just knowing that I’m worthy of someone / something really amazing. I know that this takes hard work from both people, and there are no guarantees (I also don’t want to make a covert contract with the universe—oh if I do this, then this—NO).

Point is, I’m done settling.


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Originally Posted by AnotherStander
Originally Posted by bubbs16
She is 100% adamant that its over. Nothing is going to change that womans mind that is for sure.


Said every LBS on these forums ever. She seems resolute right now but in 6 months? A year? 3 years? Who knows. They do often change their minds back again. But you can't sit around waiting, you've got to focus on you. And it sounds like you are starting to do that, so good!


Where I’m kinda at right now. Feeling like it’s over and nothing’s going to change her mind, ever.

But yes, keep focus on self and the boys.


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B,

I agree with AS you need to slow way down.

You're on this site so you are trying to save your marriage. Then you're not sure if you would reconcile and now apparently you are settling for your W. Do you see how you're all over the place?

You need to take sometime and be by yourself which will give you a chance to work on you.

Are you addressing the issues that caused your W to cry in the shower?

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Originally Posted by LH19
B,

I agree with AS you need to slow way down.

You're on this site so you are trying to save your marriage. Then you're not sure if you would reconcile and now apparently you are settling for your W. Do you see how you're all over the place?

You need to take sometime and be by yourself which will give you a chance to work on you.

Are you addressing the issues that caused your W to cry in the shower?



Yeah.....I am all over the place. Need to get off my rollercoaster, let alone W’s. I do want to save our MR—but I have to wonder at what price? Can this be saved? To me it doesn’t feel like she wants to save it, but I know that those are her current feelings, right now.

The ‘settling’ part is more of down the road—I just don’t want to settle to settle. Don’t want to settle for someone else down the road, don’t want to settle for recon just to recon—I want to make sure things are better in the future and for the future.

She would cry in the shower because of how she felt that I treated her—especially with respect to not listening to her, so the remedies are being more into actions and not words, trying to not procrastinate / be forgetful, and I think sex is one of them in the past, but I’m not pursuing sex with her (more like pursuing overall).

I am trying better to listen to her, prove myself more with actions instead of just talk, and not put things off and better cope with / manage forgetfulness.


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Will wondering about the price and whether or not your MR be saved help you or your marriage in any way? If not, then it's just unproductive noise getting in the way of your life and healing.

Originally Posted by Bo562
To me it doesn’t feel like she wants to save it, but I know that those are her current feelings, right now.
You state a feeling, then you state that her feelings are just current - as if they can change. Well, if hers can change so can yours? Be positive, and don't worry about those things so much. In the first paragraph you talk about getting off her rollercoaster, then in the second you jump back on it?

I like the last line, Bo. Keep working on making those 180s real and lifelong.


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Originally Posted by Bo562
The ‘settling’ part is more of down the road—I just don’t want to settle to settle.

If you don't want to settle then don't settle. You do realize settling is a choice right?

Originally Posted by Bo562
She would cry in the shower because of how she felt that I treated her—especially with respect to not listening to her, so the remedies are being more into actions and not words, trying to not procrastinate / be forgetful, and I think sex is one of them in the past, but I’m not pursuing sex with her (more like pursuing overall).

Are you saying she would cry in the shower because you wouldn't pursue sex with her?

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Originally Posted by Bo562
Originally Posted by AnotherStander
Originally Posted by bubbs16
She is 100% adamant that its over. Nothing is going to change that womans mind that is for sure.


Said every LBS on these forums ever. She seems resolute right now but in 6 months? A year? 3 years? Who knows. They do often change their minds back again. But you can't sit around waiting, you've got to focus on you. And it sounds like you are starting to do that, so good!


Where I’m kinda at right now. Feeling like it’s over and nothing’s going to change her mind, ever.

But yes, keep focus on self and the boys.


So look at this post.

You answer AS' questions based on HER. Then say "keep the focus on self and the boys".

Step back and think about it from Bo's perspective? What does Bo want? And answer this for Bo WITHOUT her being the focus. Things like:

"Bo wants to be healthy and happy, a good father, and in a mutual loving relationship with a wonderful woman."

See the difference?

Your answer was not up to you but up to your W. The second answer is up to you! The wonderful woman may be your W in the future, or some other woman.The point is that don't be the LBS that only thinks about his future in terms of HER choice, but rather looks at it in terms of the LBS' choice.

You will be happy and fulfilled again. WITH OR WITHOUT her.


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Originally Posted by LH19

Are you saying she would cry in the shower because you wouldn't pursue sex with her?



That was one of the things she was unhappy with and she told me about, yes. I’m also sure that was at least one of the things she would cry about. She wanted me to change with respect to sex in terms of frequency and practices, and wanting to be desired.

After ILYBINILWY BD, I made a 180 in that regard; but I did let off the gas as the pregnancy progressed—out of respect for her fatigue levels. And then I waited a few weeks, as is customary for post-pregnancy healing.

We’ve only had sex once (back in early Nov.)


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Originally Posted by Steve85

Step back and think about it from Bo's perspective? What does Bo want? And answer this for Bo WITHOUT her being the focus. Things like:

"Bo wants to be healthy and happy, a good father, and in a mutual loving relationship with a wonderful woman."

You will be happy and fulfilled again. WITH OR WITHOUT her.


Love this.

Need to write both of these things down, remember them, and work to make them happen. Thanks, Steve.


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Originally Posted by WindyC

I can tell you why I gave up on my marriage - hopelessness. Hopelessness that the changes that I need to see in my husband to make me happy as a woman and make me swoon with desire can happen. Because for most married women, desire starts outside of the bedroom. I have to respect you as a man, whatever the criteria it maybe for each individual woman. I lost hope that my husband has the character and strength to make permanent changes in himself. I have convinced myself that based on his actions in the past I am not important to him enough for him to jump through the hoops. I have told him and told him and told him and told him and on and on and on. He would change for a bit, but it would ALWAYS go back to where it started. And it seems to be the running theme here, men don't really listen and take their wives seriously. Like a boss who nods in agreement when you ask for a raise every year, but then nothing happens and years go by. You then loose hope that you are a valued employee and is forced to find another job or quit even though you love your job. I believe that if you really dig deep into your past you will probably remember what your wife "bugged and nagged" you about on the consistent basis. You probably acted as if those things were optional but she was telling you exactly what you need to do that makes her see you as a male PARTNER.
..............
How hopeless she must have felt with this marriage to initiate her own self destruction? It is not an impulse. Oh, no. She has been feeling like this is her only option left to shake you up. Like I said, every situation is unique, but it sounds like she is hanging on to the marriage. If everything you say is true, I would assume she is still waiting like me, otherwise she would file a long time ago. Something you are doing or not doing that has yet to convince her that you are the man she wants to grow old with. I only know what my husband needs to do, but every woman has a different love language, like you said. I would probably assume that communication has not been your marriage's strongest point like many, so if I have to give you any point here I would start with improving your interpersonal communication skills. Men seem to struggle in this department. They either passively agree to everything wife says to avoid a conflict and to appear supportive or they stonewall or get defensive and accusatory. Neither approach helps the bedroom situation. One comes off as weak and passive another as an [censored].


Cruising the forums, and I saw this.......and this pretty much fits my sitch to a T.

It’s still hard to not beat myself up over this, though. But I also know that I won’t get anywhere, at all, if I keep looking back at the past.


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Yep Bo I am sure you can relate to a lot of it.

The thing is though that with time and space you will also come up with a list of complaints on how your W didn't live up to your expectations either.

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Reading Chapter 3 of NMMNG “Learn to Please Yourself”

Self-care is so crucial, both emotionally and physically—can see where the detachment and GAL’ing is crucial here.

Also, just learning to be more in the moment and authentic is so important.

And one thing that I learned, and wrote in my copy of the book—STOP LIVING FOR OTHERS’ APPROVAL.

Last edited by Bo562; 01/23/19 07:37 PM.

M: 36
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T: 9
M: 7

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Originally Posted by LH19
Yep Bo I am sure you can relate to a lot of it.

The thing is though that with time and space you will also come up with a list of complaints on how your W didn't live up to your expectations either.


I’ve thought about that, LH. I’ve come up with a few things (at least, and I’ve probably already alluded to them in previous posts) about how W hasn’t totally lived up to mine.

She told me last week how both of us bear responsibility—but I’ve heard precious little from her on what she has said / done (or, maybe I just haven’t listened all that much, which could be it too).


M: 36
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M: 7

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Originally Posted by Steve85

Step back and think about it from Bo's perspective? What does Bo want? And answer this for Bo WITHOUT her being the focus. Things like:

"Bo wants to be healthy and happy, a good father, and in a mutual loving relationship with a wonderful woman."

You will be happy and fulfilled again. WITH OR WITHOUT her.


Thought for today that I need to keep in front of me, in my mind today:

What I am doing for Bo and the boys?


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M: 7

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/journaling

I know it’s still relatively early in the day, but I really haven’t had too many thoughts about W or the pending S / D today.

I know RIP irony that I make this post because that means I’m thinking about it, but it really hasn’t been dominating my thoughts today like they have been. I also have seen on this forum that there will be days like this—days / moments where you think tons about it, and then days / moments where you don’t. Just accept and be grateful for what it is.

Teaching classes and being sick (caught YS’ respiratory virus from this past weekend) I’m sure help with some level of detachment.


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Originally Posted by Bo562

I know it’s still relatively early in the day, but I really haven’t had too many thoughts about W or the pending S / D today.

I know RIP irony that I make this post because that means I’m thinking about it, but it really hasn’t been dominating my thoughts today like they have been.


Haha! Well coming here kind of does make you think about your sitch, and you are here to post about your sitch so you get a pass for that smile

Quote
I also have seen on this forum that there will be days like this—days / moments where you think tons about it, and then days / moments where you don’t. Just accept and be grateful for what it is.


Yes exactly. That's how recovery goes. The number of days you think/ worry about your sitch get fewer and fewer as time goes on. It would be nice if it were a switch you could flip and be done with it, but unfortunately it doesn't work that way. You go back and forth for quite a while.

Hope you're feeling better soon!


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Originally Posted by AnotherStander


Yes exactly. That's how recovery goes. The number of days you think/ worry about your sitch get fewer and fewer as time goes on. It would be nice if it were a switch you could flip and be done with it, but unfortunately it doesn't work that way. You go back and forth for quite a while.

Hope you're feeling better soon!


Thanks, A/S. I hope I do, too—right now I feel like a truck hit me. Even though it won’t be much of a conversation on my end (especially thanks to my L’s consultation advice earlier this week), when W asked me if I wanted to talk about parenting plan, I asked to talk about it later because I’m feeling sick and to put it off until I feel better. I just want to be at my best to handle her because I’m sure she won’t handle it well.

It would be nice if I could flip the switch and be done with it, and get some resolution one way or the other about the sitch—but it won’t be like that. I know I’ve been back and forth for a while—for today it’s nice to not have the swings (in number, or in intensity). I just really don’t have the mental energy to think about my sitch right now—and I’ll consider that a blessing.


M: 36
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T: 9
M: 7

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/journaling

Still feel like trash, but it takes a lot to keep me out of the classroom (stomach flu, thrown-out back, sick child will all do that, but not this).

Getting ready for work this AM, and it’s t-shirt and jeans day for students, faculty and staff. I’m still liking how I look without a shirt on and jeans—having a positive body image is a leap from where I used to be (though losing 30 lbs. overall and not having as much flab around the waist / midsection helps).

I had a sex dream about W last night—I know, I was here yesterday talking about how much I haven’t really thought of her and our sitch today, and that changes it. It was weird—I could tell (as much as I could in a dream, anyway), that we were having sex, but that we were very physically apart while doing it.

While I believe it is possible for dreams to send us messages (anything is possible), I subscribe to the view mentioned by Steve somewhere else that dreams are most likely our brain’s way of processing info—and this could be an info dump by my brain.

What’s interesting is that while W would light me up for not wanting as much sex as her in terms of practices or number of encounters, she would ask me what I wanted in that regard, and when I would float the possibility of car sex she was the one who would hit the brakes (as it were) and demur and talk me out of it. She would become the relative prude. “Oh, I don’t know....don’t want to get caught, where would we, how would we?” I mean, wouldn’t that be the fun of it?

Oh well.


M: 36
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T: 9
M: 7

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//journaling

Today hasn’t been as acute in terms of thinking about W or our sitch, but I’ve thought about it a bit more than yesterday. It’s not the sharp, emotional stabs that it has been—more of a dull ache, than an acute one.

At home waiting on carpet cleaning guy to swing by and clean up some of the mustiness of the carpet from last week’s great kitchen flood—W is picking up the boys today.

Still not feeling great. I hope it’s not a physical manifestation of depression—I keep wondering if all this is in my head, and then I cough, or I feel the sore throat, and I realize, yeah maybe this isn’t all in my head. Mostly just body aches—like someone clubbed me with a 5-iron or something. My mom wonders if I have the flu (I did get a flu shot back in October, and while it protects from a couple of strains, if you do get a strain that is not covered, it at least helps minimize what you do have so it’s not a full-blown flu).

Just as the body aches, so does the heart. I guess not only do I feel physically vulnerable, but also emotionally vulnerable right now. I would love the attention and affection of a good woman right now.

Being sick reminds me of the fact that I do want to be taken care of, to an extent. I don’t want to be mother-ed; but it would be nice to have a woman who expresses genuine care / concern for me. I keep going back to what W said in February when I threw out my back—“I wish I loved you enough to want to take care of you.” I wish I had someone who loved me enough to want to take care of me. I don’t want to be waited on—but the care and concern and attention and affection would be really really nice. And that’s what I miss right now. Hugs. Kisses. ILYs.

Of course I can think about how lonely W probably felt (and is currently feeling) because of what I’ve said or not said or done or not done—‘now you know how I feel.’ The thing is, is that W really wanted to take care of me in the past—she would have done anything for me, but that feeling by her is gone (at least for now). And I’ve taken care of her through her illnesses, 2 pregnancies, and a good amount of dental work.

What I need to focus on is myself and the boys—helping myself to feel better, and caring for them to the extent that I can. I’ve taken care of myself when sick before—I did it when I was single / unmarried, or when W has traveled for work, and I can do it again, though I’m not exactly relishing the thought. I need to focus on getting better and creating the best life possible for me and the boys.

The thought did occur to me earlier this afternoon, as I was walking around the condo—that though I very much right now miss the attention and affection of a good woman, that this is relatively temporary. Right now, it feels like this sitch will not end, and that there is no end in sight. But this will pass, in time—I’m getting one day closer to some sort of resolution, and I trust there will hopefully be a good woman by my side in the future (whoever she is), in sickness and in health. I know I shouldn’t get hung-up on the thought of having someone by my side (want versus need—I need to show contentment with my current state in life, I know), but this is just where I’m at right now.


M: 36
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T: 9
M: 7

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I hear ya on missing the affection and attention from a woman.. its been 7 weeks for me without w and that hurts . Got to look forward and not in the rearview I guess. It isn't easy thats for sure.

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Update / journaling coming later (sick)

On our way home from grocery, W said on Wednesday night she has an 'appointment' at 5:30 and won't be home until dinner time (normally 6:30 for us).


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Originally Posted by bubbs16
I hear ya on missing the affection and attention from a woman.. its been 7 weeks for me without w and that hurts . Got to look forward and not in the rearview I guess. It isn't easy thats for sure.


Going from regular intimacy to nothing for months [censored]. I had never gone that long in my life without intimacy. It was five months.

In my sitch I am done though. I wont be intimate much less hug my WW ever again. She doesnt deserve that from me and I deserve much better.


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Hey ST,

Unlike you, I don't think I have a WW (at least not confirmed).

I miss the hugs / kisses / touches, and yes, sex--but I'm just not sure how much I want it from her right now anyway.

It's been 2.5 months without sex--we've only done that when she's been gone on work trips--not even for NFP did we abstain for that long (usually it was like 2 weeks).

Hard to find W emotionally attractive, and trying to break up a family through D does not earn many points in my attraction book.

Every now and then she looks very good, but it's mostly 'meh,' and my attraction to her overall is 'meh.'

Like I've said before on my posts, lots of women look good in a cami, bra and jeans, but I'm sure there are many others who can look good and treat me better than W is right now.


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M: 7

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Originally Posted by Bo562
Unlike you, I don't think I have a WW (at least not confirmed).

Bo, why do you think she is a WAW and not a WW? Would it change anything for you if you found out today she was a WW?

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Originally Posted by LH19

Bo, why do you think she is a WAW and not a WW?


The fact that she is just ‘done’ with me and with everything in our MR.

I’ve had my suspicions, but not confirmation, of OM—I’m also not looking for it, either.

Originally Posted by LH19
Would it change anything for you if you found out today she was a WW?


The original purpose of my comment was for me to acknowledge to ST that my sitch is different than his.

However, what I’ve seen on these boards is that it really doesn’t make a difference whether the label is WAS/WS/MLC—they’re all relatively similar.

I have wondered if W is WW in the sense that morally she is much different than me (not that I ever expected us to be identical)—and she acknowledged that in the last couple of years she has changed a lot. I thought I saw that a WW can be wayward morally, although it tends to be used in the context of someone who is having some sort of A.

Would it matter to me if I found out today? Probably—I’d be much, much less willing to entertain the possibility of R’ing or piecing with her, and I would probably be more willing to go through the D / S.


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Originally Posted by Bo562
I would probably be more willing to go through the D / S.


So if you did this now. Took this attitude right now. Where you were suddenly willing to S and D, what do you think would happen?


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Originally Posted by Steve85
Where you were suddenly willing to S and D, what do you think would happen?


I think she would be surprised, at least a little bit.

I still don’t think it would stop anything or change her mind, which I know is not the point.

But I need to stop making this about HER—and start making this about ME. Change the frame of reference.

When I spoke with my L last week, she told me that if W wants to separate—W can already do that, she doesn’t need to file paperwork for divorce and get that started. L’s words: “There’s something else she’s not telling you.”

I have been thinking more and more about a life without her as W recently. I went out for coffee to GAL while OS was at Sunday School yesterday—over on the bulletin board at the Starbucks down the street was a flyer for apartments in the neighborhood. Close to our parish, close-ish to where I work.

I’m not sure how realistic it would be—but at this point, very little sounds realistic to me.

Last edited by Bo562; 01/28/19 04:03 PM.

M: 36
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T: 9
M: 7

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Bo, glad you saw where I was going. I can honestly say that I had a W that was very sure that our MR was over, that she was moving out, and we were getting a D. The more I bucked against it the more dug in she got. But as I started to embrace the new direction the more she started to back off and change her mind. It is a weird dynamic. Those that are most successful at saving their marriages do it by giving up on the marriage. Your W sounds a lot like me. It is like the big dog that is all snarling and barking, but the minute you approach despite that it tucks its tail, lays down and rolls over to have its belly rubbed. Not all WAWs are like this, but the ones that are will quickly give up being so sure about what they want the minutes they start to get it.


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Bo,

What do you mean your L said there is something your W is not telling you?

As far as WW/WAW/MLC goes everyone's sitch is unique in that everyone and there S are individuals. However, they all follow general scripts, paths, call it what you want for both the WAS and the LBS. Just treat it all the same.

Your W could be having a PA, EA, or her dreamboat could be all in her head. She could have some Male orbiters you are or you are not aware of. Monkey branching is a real thing. Regardless, you should pick the path to stand or move on. People on these boards have done both and neither is easy. You know what is worse? Vacillating in limbo. Pick your poison then walk your path and be Amoafwl regardless of the outcome.


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Originally Posted by Twofeet


What do you mean your L said there is something your W is not telling you?


If I understood her correctly, L questions the need for W to file for D so quickly. I explained to L what W told me: W wants to put the paperwork in motion, separate, and then come back in 6-9 months after the paperwork is pending (I guess?), see where we are at and then come back together or proceed with D. To me, this has seemed bass-awkward if her intent is ever on coming back together.

L talked about how if W really wanted a trail S, then she can do that without putting paperwork in motion. Why go through all that trouble—unless there is something else going on?


Originally Posted by Twofeet
As far as WW/WAW/MLC goes everyone's sitch is unique in that everyone and there S are individuals. However, they all follow general scripts, paths, call it what you want for both the WAS and the LBS. Just treat it all the same.


Correct—I should treat it all the same.

Originally Posted by Twofeet
Your W could be having a PA, EA, or her dreamboat could be all in her head. She could have some Male orbiters you are or you are not aware of. Monkey branching is a real thing. Regardless, you should pick the path to stand or move on. People on these boards have done both and neither is easy. You know what is worse? Vacillating in limbo. Pick your poison then walk your path and be Amoafwl regardless of the outcome.


What I do know is that this MR is effectively dead, and that I really don’t want MR 2.0 with her with our current dynamic.

I would want to ‘stand’ for the kids and for our vows, but I don’t want to settle for what was, if that makes sense. I understand we both have things we need to change, and I am doing my part to the best extent possible. Though I don’t want D, this is what she says she wants for now.


M: 36
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T: 9
M: 7

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Originally Posted by Steve85
Bo, glad you saw where I was going. I can honestly say that I had a W that was very sure that our MR was over, that she was moving out, and we were getting a D. The more I bucked against it the more dug in she got. But as I started to embrace the new direction the more she started to back off and change her mind. It is a weird dynamic. Those that are most successful at saving their marriages do it by giving up on the marriage. Your W sounds a lot like me. It is like the big dog that is all snarling and barking, but the minute you approach despite that it tucks its tail, lays down and rolls over to have its belly rubbed. Not all WAWs are like this, but the ones that are will quickly give up being so sure about what they want the minutes they start to get it.


Hey Steve,

Thanks for your input.

I’m pretty sure W is all-in for D right now.

What I do remember is that earlier this month when she dropped it on me, I’m sure she was surprised I didn’t get mad, angry, or super-sad—I didn’t react on-script.

I do remember the advice—give up your MR to save your MR, as counter-intuitive as it sounds.

W is a lot of fire and brimstone right now—she has threatened me with a court order to remove me, but then later she is concerned how all this is affecting the kids. You think that barring Daddy from home is going to positively impact the boys?

Once I kick this bug, W and I will talk about the parenting plan, and I’ll restate my objections to it, ask some questions, and reinforce that if she wants out of the MR, she can leave (and I’ll bring up the talking points that L gave me). What I do know is that I haven’t given in to her initial demands, which for me is huge, and not what she expects. I do wonder if we go down this road and we start to do the practical aspects of this that if she will be so sure that she truly wants this. I don’t know, and that’s not for me to decide.


M: 36
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T: 9
M: 7

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Hey Bo,

The last post shows poise. Remember they will try to get a reaction out of you, some will do some crazy stuff so don’t get baited. Remain cool. Do try to run different scenarios to prepare yourself for the conversation so you won’t be shocked. This is what throws a lot of people off, initial shock. Don’t let it overwhelm you and if it does, take a breather.

Stay in control, you got this brother.


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Thanks, Adam.

Seeing a Doc today, so hopefully that will help me.

W has shown *some* concern towards me—she asked me last night if I need to take a day off. I also wonder if she’s showing concern so she can gauge my willingness / ability to have a follow-up conversation.

For me, the victories have come in not getting ‘baited’ by a whole lot, which I consider an improvement.

I don’t feel like I’m in control of this, though—I go back and forth on ‘I don’t want this’ to ‘imagining what a life D’ed looks like.’ Not sure how I feel about what I want for us.

What’s surreal to me is that last night, as she was feeding YS and I was finishing dinner, W talked about how OS wants to go to Big Bear, and that if a group of people go it will be cheaper—her words were basically ‘oh yeah we get a group of families to go together and blah blah blah....’

At first I was all WTF mentally, but trying to detach and let it go. Believe nothing they say.


M: 36
W: 30
T: 9
M: 7

S6 (OS)
S7mo (YS)

ILYBINILWY BD: Feb. ‘18

W Wants S / D BD: 1/4/19

H / W still in-house

D papers from W: 3/14/19
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My only response to your response is that ALL WAWs are all for D at first. Some are more sure of themselves than others, but outwardly they all give the front that they are. The ones that follow through and file are those that are really sure its what they want. Until you see that activity I always question, despite how outwardly they insist, just how sure it is what they want.


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Steve,

She’s threatened me before with just straight up filing, and me getting served. Then court order and blah blah blah....

I’m not going to put her doing this past her.


M: 36
W: 30
T: 9
M: 7

S6 (OS)
S7mo (YS)

ILYBINILWY BD: Feb. ‘18

W Wants S / D BD: 1/4/19

H / W still in-house

D papers from W: 3/14/19
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Originally Posted by Steve85
My only response to your response is that ALL WAWs are all for D at first. Some are more sure of themselves than others, but outwardly they all give the front that they are. The ones that follow through and file are those that are really sure its what they want. Until you see that activity I always question, despite how outwardly they insist, just how sure it is what they want.


Is it possible they file and are still "unsure"? Have you seen that situation at all? My wife filed, never told me, and then about a week later I told her that I noticed she filed (we are both attorneys, so I was able to log in to the court system to see that it was filed that day she did it) about a week later and she said that she "prayed about whether or not to go through with filing before beforehand and then figured 'what's the point.'" She then tried to turn it around on me and said she figured since I signed the certificate of service that that meant I wanted her to file. This is patently false since I have a text message that I sent to her stating that if this is what she wants, I won't stand in the way anymore. I don't know if she is truly off her rocker and thought that or if that is just her trying to manipulate me. I would guess the latter. Maybe she thought she was going to call my bluff or prove to me that "she means business"? I don't know.

In the meantime, I told her I want to see a draft of a proposed property settlement and child custody agreement. She obliged and of course did a 180 on everything we sort of agreed to verbally months ago. We then exchanged 3 emails back and forth on some of the particulars. The last email was a response from me to her about some of the things we weren't seeing eye to eye on. I haven't heard anything more from her 3 weeks or so. I am very curious if her non response is a sign of some hesitation or not? I'm not going to bring it up until I hear something back from her. It's up to her at this point to continue the process.


M: 34 W:34
D:7 D:6 S:3

M: 9.5 years T: 12

OM found & BD (by me): 9/19/18
IHS begins
W informs me she's moving out: 11/28/18
W files: 12/21/18
D Final: 2/25/19
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They all start out that way and are high on emotion, so they will swing from one to the other. They'll want you non-existant and then the next worry about how they felt and want to see you okay and feel guilty and then try to justify how they felt in the first place but now are unsure how to feel and you are on the side tryin got help them sort through this mess? no way... even if you think you are helping by saying something you think they will pick up and say "oh yeah why didn't I think of that." It wont help.

Whether she has the gusto to do it, try not to do anything to push her into that. No pressure. The counter-intuitive approach.

Threats are about control. if you know what you are standing for is right and she is trying to make you buckle, then don't.


You don't have to be in control of the situation. let that part of your thinking go. I know its hard. be in control of yourself. time changes, you must change with the time. Today there are 5,454, 879,367 words for you to choose from that could help you ease your mind. Do you know which ones those are? "I am in control." Once you pick something that resonates with you, you will start to believe it, feel it, then you can practice living it.


H 49 , W 47
T 23, M 17
S11, S5
BD: 7/18
IHS: 7/18 - 3/19
Physically Separated: 3/19-4/19
Piecing: 4/19 - Current

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Originally Posted by Wanted1
Is it possible they file and are still "unsure"? Have you seen that situation at all?

Yes, we have seen that happened before. Gordie in MLC comes to mind.

Originally Posted by Wanted1
She then tried to turn it around on me and said she figured since I signed the certificate of service that that meant I wanted her to file.
Yep, I knew you wouldn't get the reaction you were looking for when you signed it. She was probably thinking YES, now I can tell people it was a mutual agreement or worse that it was your idea.

Originally Posted by Wanted1
I am very curious if her non response is a sign of some hesitation or not?

Probably not. You have taken away the pressure so she is in no hurry.

Originally Posted by Wanted1
I'm not going to bring it up until I hear something back from her. It's up to her at this point to continue the process.
Smart. You learned your lesson the hard way!

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Originally Posted by Wanted1


Is it possible they file and are still "unsure"? Have you seen that situation at all?


W has told me that this is her initial gambit. To file, get the paperwork in motion, and then we figure out where we are at in 6-9 months and go from there—continue with process, or rescind it / let it pend or expire. I know: BELIEVE NOTHING THEY SAY.

The more I think about this, the less it makes sense. Goes back to what my L consulted me on: “There’s something else she’s not telling you.”

If W really wants a trial S, then we can do that without the paperwork and expense.


M: 36
W: 30
T: 9
M: 7

S6 (OS)
S7mo (YS)

ILYBINILWY BD: Feb. ‘18

W Wants S / D BD: 1/4/19

H / W still in-house

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Originally Posted by Bo562
W has told me that this is her initial gambit. To file, get the paperwork in motion, and then we figure out where we are at in 6-9 months and go from there—continue with process, or rescind it / let it pend or expire. I know: BELIEVE NOTHING THEY SAY.

Bo, I have seen you quote the same thing at least three times. She is manipulating you to get what she wants. Your lawyer even understands what is going on. She is trying to expedite separation because she is more than likely having an affair.

Sorry to be so blunt but you keep spinning in regards to her statement.

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Originally Posted by LH19
Originally Posted by Wanted1
She then tried to turn it around on me and said she figured since I signed the certificate of service that that meant I wanted her to file.
Yep, I knew you wouldn't get the reaction you were looking for when you signed it. She was probably thinking YES, now I can tell people it was a mutual agreement or worse that it was your idea.


I'm not sure I was looking for a reaction. My thought process was essentially to what I was telling her that I would do, which was not stand in her way. She was apparently eagle eyeing that paperwork and the minute it was signed she filed it. In hindsight, I guess what I should have done was not sign it and let her either have me served or wait until she asked me when I was going to sign it. She didn't necessarily need me to sign the certificate of service in order to file the summons and complaint. Oh well, can't dwell on the past.....


M: 34 W:34
D:7 D:6 S:3

M: 9.5 years T: 12

OM found & BD (by me): 9/19/18
IHS begins
W informs me she's moving out: 11/28/18
W files: 12/21/18
D Final: 2/25/19
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Originally Posted by Wanted1
[In hindsight, I guess what I should have done was not sign it and let her either have me served or wait until she asked me when I was going to sign it.


Bingo!

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M: 36
W: 30
T: 9
M: 7

S6 (OS)
S7mo (YS)

ILYBINILWY BD: Feb. ‘18

W Wants S / D BD: 1/4/19

H / W still in-house

D papers from W: 3/14/19
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