CALL 303-444-7004 to get started right away!

 

 


A Divorce Busting® Coach can help you save your marriage, even when your spouse wants out.


A Divorce Busting Telephone Coach
can help you save your marriage singlehandedly!
CALL 303-444-7004
or online at the Divorce Busting Store

A Message from Michele
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 2 of 3 1 2 3
Re: Piecing....... [Re: Steve85] #2831488
01/07/19 03:07 AM
01/07/19 03:07 AM
Joined: Jul 2017
Posts: 722
R
RR17 Offline
Member
RR17  Offline
Member
R
Joined: Jul 2017
Posts: 722
Steve, you are an honorable man to own your faults. It has been discussed that the WW has to express or experience certain things as well. I wish I could find the thread. Alas, I remembered that I copied her list to notepad.

Quote
This list has some of the things the WW will need to do in order to reconcile, honestly and completely, with her H. If you see something that needs to be added, feel free. 

These are in no special order.

1). Consequences! And taking a hit with hard, maybe a painful loss of some kind.
2). Realizing the connection between her decisions with the consequences/loss.
3). Accepting responsibility for her decisions...and for every loss,
and every hurt she caused those she loves and who loves her.
4). Accepting and dealing with the consequences, without blaming anyone but herself.
5). Making a conscious choice to end her wayward direction and turn around.
6). Seeking guidance and/or spiritual counsel to guide her in how to cleanse her heart of the wrong attitudes, selfcenterness, resentment, rebellion.......whatever she carries that is unhealthy.
7). To be remorseful.  If necessary, even seek spiritual help, pray, whatever......to feel remorse for the destruction her decisions and feelings has caused her H.  She has to feel true remorse in order to emotionally reconcile and heal properly.
8). To completely forgive her H for everything in the past. To release the blame,anger, and hurt she held throughout their M.
9).  To be wiling to do whatever it takes for the MR to heal.
10). To agree and cooperate with the H's choice of transparency plan (accountability), sending a NC letter, having any medical tests, ending any friendships out of his request, (and of course, any contact with OM), place of employment, giving him requested information, attending MC, or anything else the H may request in order to ensure the success of their reconciliation, and the safety of the MR.
11). Accept/agree, without resentment, that she is in no position to give her H any "conditions" to her going back into the MR.  And, to accept without resentment, that the greatest level of work in piecing the M back together, must come from her.
12). To accept that it will take time for her healthy emotions to be restored.  To realize and accept she cannot measure the success of their progress by her feelings.
13). To be informed, and accept, that she must go through withdrawals from her AP, and could experience depression. She needs to understand this is normal, and not a sign that she will have never have feelings for H. 
13).  And the hardest one of all.........learn to forgive herself.

 Keep in mind, these things will not all come about at one time. Neither will she be able to know without someone guiding her.  It is really important she has help or coaching from an unbiased source who is pro-marriage and is familiar with piecing after an affair. 


M 53 W 54
m since 98
D15, D19
8/2013 discovered EA, through MC W maintained contact with OM
until 10/14
7/2/17 W said she wanted S,
7/25/17 moved out of MBR
12/17 W says moving out 5/18, W still in home.

Re: Piecing....... [Re: Steve85] #2831603
01/07/19 05:15 PM
01/07/19 05:15 PM
Joined: Feb 2018
Posts: 4,131
S
Steve85 Offline OP
Member
Steve85  Offline OP
Member
S
Joined: Feb 2018
Posts: 4,131
After BD#1, here is a point by point synopsis:

Quote

1). Consequences! And taking a hit with hard, maybe a painful loss of some kind.


This definitely happened. After BD in 2005 she lost a lot of freedom. She agreed to full disclosure. The most painful loss was the loss of OM. She went into about a 6 week withdrawal. It took several months before we were back to normal, but we eventually settled back into a new normal, which was very similar to the old normal except she was much more transparent. She also did a lot of reading trying to figure out how to fix things. She even did Love Dare at some point (I found out years later).

Quote

2). Realizing the connection between her decisions with the consequences/loss.


This one took the form of her realizing that she couldn't have and defend platonic friendships with males. She also realized that she had to make concessions with "freedom" and being transparent as a result of her actions.

Quote

3). Accepting responsibility for her decisions...and for every loss,
and every hurt she caused those she loves and who loves her.


This she did as well.

Quote

4). Accepting and dealing with the consequences, without blaming anyone but herself.


She definitely blamed herself. In fact that was a big difference in her post-BD#1 and post-BD#2. Post BD#1 she blamed herself exclusively. Post BD#2, she blamed me exclusively. It took weeks and MC to make her take responsibility herself.

Quote

5). Making a conscious choice to end her wayward direction and turn around.


This one didn't apply since she was not WW related to BD#1. She did turn around from her EA activities though.

Quote

6). Seeking guidance and/or spiritual counsel to guide her in how to cleanse her heart of the wrong attitudes, selfcenterness, resentment, rebellion.......whatever she carries that is unhealthy.


She did this.

Quote

7). To be remorseful. If necessary, even seek spiritual help, pray, whatever......to feel remorse for the destruction her decisions and feelings has caused her H. She has to feel true remorse in order to emotionally reconcile and heal properly.


She did feel remorseful. And while I think it was remorse at having been caught, initially, in the days that followed she realized she had jeopardized everything she had with me and was sorry for that and for hurting me.

Quote

8). To completely forgive her H for everything in the past. To release the blame,anger, and hurt she held throughout their M.


She did do this. A lot of it was that I had instituted changes. Unfortunately (more on this later) my changes were temporary just to save the MR rather then real and lasting.

Quote

9). To be wiling to do whatever it takes for the MR to heal.


She was. I, however, was not. She asked for IC and MC. At the time I didn't want to spend the money (our financial sitch was vastly different in 2005 than it is now). Again this was my fault, not hers.

Quote

10). To agree and cooperate with the H's choice of transparency plan (accountability), sending a NC letter, having any medical tests, ending any friendships out of his request, (and of course, any contact with OM), place of employment, giving him requested information, attending MC, or anything else the H may request in order to ensure the success of their reconciliation, and the safety of the MR.


She did this. I still have a copy of the email she sent. She ended the friendship, and went no contact. She did slip up on that once, but it was quickly squashed by OM AND, she later regretted even that. She wanted IC and MC but I refused.

Quote

11). Accept/agree, without resentment, that she is in no position to give her H any "conditions" to her going back into the MR. And, to accept without resentment, that the greatest level of work in piecing the M back together, must come from her.


Again, she did this but I only asked her to end the EA and have no contact with OM.

Quote

12). To accept that it will take time for her healthy emotions to be restored. To realize and accept she cannot measure the success of their progress by her feelings.


I think she did this but no way to know for sure. As once the EA was over I went back to pre-BD behavior.

Quote

13). To be informed, and accept, that she must go through withdrawals from her AP, and could experience depression. She needs to understand this is normal, and not a sign that she will have never have feelings for H.


She worked through this. Neither of us knew or understood this. I was more concerned that this meant she would never have feelings for me again, not her. In fact, she started making efforts to reignite the feelings. I was obtuse related to this.

Quote

13). And the hardest one of all.........learn to forgive herself.


I think she struggled with this the most.

After BD#1 she did a complete 180, immediately said she wanted to save the marriage, and started working towards that. She did have OM withdrawals. She processed through that better than I did.

The mistakes after BD#1 were almost exclusively on my side. I think I had trouble forgiving her. And I think I let that make me feel that she OWED me. I did mention it a few times over the next few years, but by 2010 never mentioned it. I had, however, gone back to my poor behavior as a H. Not empathizing with her, not listening to her, taking her for granted, being mean a surly, withdrawing into myself. By 2012 I had an HD TV in our MBR and would come home from work and spend all evening in there by myself. By 2017 I had become a pretty bad H other than providing for my family. Even then I nitpicked every single penny she spent. I was pretty bad.

BD#1 was on her (a lot of the worst behavior wasn't present pre-BD, though there was some.) BD#2 was mostly on me, looking back. Does that excuse her? Absolutely not. But the mistake I made after BD#1 was not doing the work I NEEDED to do. Not taking her up on IC and MC for us, and allowing myself to go back to pre-BD#1 behavior......and worse.


M(49), W(50),D(15)
M-19, T-21 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017

I am way better today than I was a year ago. Today I'm a man only a fool would leave. But I'm also a man that knows his own worth...
Re: Piecing....... [Re: Steve85] #2831669
01/07/19 09:33 PM
01/07/19 09:33 PM
Joined: Jul 2017
Posts: 722
R
RR17 Offline
Member
RR17  Offline
Member
R
Joined: Jul 2017
Posts: 722
Thanks. I hope others see this.


M 53 W 54
m since 98
D15, D19
8/2013 discovered EA, through MC W maintained contact with OM
until 10/14
7/2/17 W said she wanted S,
7/25/17 moved out of MBR
12/17 W says moving out 5/18, W still in home.

Re: Piecing....... [Re: RR17] #2831785
01/08/19 03:57 PM
01/08/19 03:57 PM
Joined: Feb 2018
Posts: 4,131
S
Steve85 Offline OP
Member
Steve85  Offline OP
Member
S
Joined: Feb 2018
Posts: 4,131
Originally Posted by RR17
Thanks. I hope others see this.


Agreed. Much to learn from my two, very different BDs. Both initiated by me.

In the first, while I was far from perfect, it was more about her getting caught up in an EA with an old flame reconnected on social media, that just snowballed. He was married, unavailable, and she didn't want to leave me anyway. She immediately committed back to the MR. I got lazy again and my behavior became even worse. I eventually discovered another EA. This time she was full blown WW, and didn't want to save the MR. It took me doing my own work to finally get her to do her own work as well. It took a lot longer, was a lot harder, but I now realize that my changes have to be for life, and not just until the problems blow over.

I DB'd in both. But in the first my DBing was half-hearted and my 180s temporary. The learning here is that you as the LBS HAS to do the work, regardless of what your WAS/WS does.


M(49), W(50),D(15)
M-19, T-21 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017

I am way better today than I was a year ago. Today I'm a man only a fool would leave. But I'm also a man that knows his own worth...
Re: Piecing....... [Re: Steve85] #2832418
01/11/19 06:28 PM
01/11/19 06:28 PM
Joined: Apr 2016
Posts: 912
B
BluWave Offline
Member
BluWave  Offline
Member
B
Joined: Apr 2016
Posts: 912
Hi Steve,

How are things? I've been loosely following the boards in the last few weeks, but just haven't had the time to post to everyone. Between holidays, working OT, kids, travel, illness, etc, I just can't keep up! I am impressed how people, like yourself, can stay so committed to posting! Thank you for that.

So I have been thinking about you and your recent changes in perspective and desire to walkaway. I don't have a thread in the piecing forums so I thought I would put this here. We keep saying it's hard, but we don't say a lot more. I thought I would dig a bit deeper (as I advise everyone else to do) as to WHY it is hard, and harder in some ways, than DBing. For anyone reading here, I would suggest looking up Maslow's Hierarchy Of Needs. I am sure that makes more sense than what I am going to attempt to explain!

My H has been back now for almost 4 years, and while we are not always "actively piecing," I think I can speak to it from the LBS perspective. In fact, IMHO, an important part of piecing is allowing yourself to second guess your commitment to the M and exploring those feelings. If you gloss over them or "force piecing" when you are not feeling it, I think you rug sweep something that needs to be addressed. If you do not address those issues, ultimately the LBS could become the WAS/WS. You might be getting a taste of that now. This has come up for me several times in the last 4 years. Now instead of acting on it, I dig a little deeper.

The shock of BD is devastating for all of us. The rug is essentially pulled out from under us and our entire life as we knew it changes. Many of us enter a stage of disillusion, anxiety, depression and desperation. That is how most Newcomers enter their sitch and thus the board. So there is no doubt that it is hard. It can feel unbearable. We read MWDs book and the links in Cadet's welcome thread. Some of us start posting and turn to the board, and some of us (myself included) just read in private for years.

For me, I did not create an acct, however I read for hours a day and found the advice/support through others that were in a similar position. I also read Sandi's rules daily and tried hard to follow them. I thought of them as my guide to just make it through the day. Because I was in a terrible crisis, I did not have the emotional bandwidth to do the greater task of self exploration. I was so wounded by his actions, that most of my focus was on wanting him back. I could not objectively think about what went wrong in the M and how I ended up here. Here lies the major difference between DBing and piecing. While DBing, I followed a set of rules, and felt as if I was in survival mode. Just getting dressed, getting through a work day, not falling apart, and taking care of my kids, and then sleeping through the night, was a challenge most days. I was at the bottom of the pyramid for many months.

The focus was on survival, following the rules, 180s, and GAL. I could not see clearly through my own fog, that him returning to the M would not fix my emotional damage. As Maslow explains, one cannot think about self actualization without basic safety! This pyramid on first glance is obvious, but a reminder we all need. How can you run a marathon without having had food, water or even oxygen?

Piecing is an entirely different animal. When my H pulled his head out of his rectum and left crazy XOW, of course there was an initial period of extreme relief. Perhaps it would be as if the doctor tells you that you have cancer and it is terminal, that you may have 6 months to live, only to later tell you that you are in complete remission and may live a full life. The emotional feelings of relief when the S returns to the M are indescribable. This for me lasted for a few weeks. As he continuously demonstrated his remorse and commitment to the M, I began to feel safe again. The safety, and detachment from the crisis period, allowed me to start seeing my sitch more clearly. I started to move up the pyramid. This is when a new kind of pain set in ...

As the months progressed, and I felt increasingly safe, my flog lifted and my perspective became more clear. As I moved up Maslow's pyramid, I was in a position to now see what had happened more broadly than just having become a victim. This devastation is less of a shock, but more of a dull ache with less and less periods of relief. The triggers were everywhere. And unlike DBing, there was no set of rules to follow. Reality stared me in the face and this was my new life, unlike the life I had created before BD. I chose a man to have a life and children with that is capable of the worst choices and here we are together again ....

The triggers were everywhere: in MC, during our conversations, when I saw a car that looked liked hers, when I saw HER, just driving down the highway on an average day, and waking up in a dark room with him laying there. While things may have looked normal, and yes, I got the guy, that dull ache and not knowing how to fix in was inescapable. Life went on, but the enjoyment was gone, and with a heaping side of resentment! This was not the man and life I had chosen.

If you are a LBS, and should be so "lucky" as us to have your S return, you would be a fool NOT to think about walking away. I said "think," and you really need to explore those thoughts. You owe it to your M and you owe it to yourself. The M was flawed before BD and it is even more flawed now, and that is the new reality. Because unlike a new R, where we don't really know if the person could cheat and abandon us, with our S, we know that they absolutely CAN and 100% DID. If that isn't a mind F, then I don't know what is. So if you decide to stay with someone after they return, there is work to be done and there is nothing fun or sexy about having to "work" on an R. The damage is 10 fold -- there is resentment now, there was a problem before, there is grieving the loss of what was and is now gone, there are triggers slapping you left and right and out of the blue, and then the "task" of creating something new. It can feel impossible at times.

I developed some very poor coping mechs in the last 4 years and I have also hurt my H a lot. I am not proud of it. I am changing, but I am still learning. I will say tho, that because so much time has passed, I don't have the same triggers, fears, or emotional responses to things that I did the first couple years. If I were to think about or see XOW, I would not feel much of anything, however I would more think something that includes pity for a what a mess she is. I think we are finally getting to place where we can discuss and address the bigger and more important aspects of our life and family, without as much emotional baggage. I still reserve my position that if I am going to leave my H, it will not be because of the mistakes he made, but it will be because we are no longer compatible.

And let's face it, we have all changed a lot during this process. We cannot really know if the new versions of ourselves will want to be together for another 10, 20, or 30 years. I am not disillusioned to what anyone is capable of anymore. But I also don't know what my perspective will be in the future. The silver lining for me is that this sitch has forced us both to really look at ourselves and our flaws and change. I think if we had maintained the old M without the BD, then we would have been our same selves. My hope is that the tools we are gaining in this mess will ultimately benefit us both personally and in our Rs in general. I hope what didn't kill me is making me stronger.

Hopefully you're all still awake .... Look up Maslow's pyramid. Good stuff.

Blu


“The more decisions that you are forced to make alone, the more you are aware of your freedom to choose.” — Thornton Wilder
Re: Piecing....... [Re: Steve85] #2832523
01/12/19 05:49 PM
01/12/19 05:49 PM
Joined: Feb 2018
Posts: 4,131
S
Steve85 Offline OP
Member
Steve85  Offline OP
Member
S
Joined: Feb 2018
Posts: 4,131
Blue, excellent post. Very well said. I think the only thing I'd add that while working hard on a R is not sexy, it is absolutely essential. Most of us ended up in our sitches because we stopped working on the R. And while I agree we now know this person we're are with is capable of cheating on us, in some respect they didn't cheat on us because we weren't trying anymore. I know that comment will be controversial here, because we often say and I truly believe that nothing justifies adultery. But I hope people understand what I mean. In a way we were no longer together with that person. In my sitch I had allowed MR to get to the point where we were living separate lives. Would this person have cheated on me if we were connected, in sync, and part of each of our lives the way we were early on? I would say no. Is that true in everyone's case? No. But most adultery is a symptom of bigger problems in the marriage.

So the point is that we should never stop working. During limerance that work comes easy. After that in love phase it takes an effort. When we stop trying that is when there is a greater chance of one spouse stepping out of the marriage. I'd recommend anyone that is feeling the way I recently felt to deal with it properly. When I felt that before I allowed it to make me stop trying. To give up. To pull inward. To start behaving as a single person as if I had walked away. That jeopardized my marriage and allowed for a greater chance of infidelity.

This time I handled it differently. I tried to work on me and the MR rather than giving up. I tried to understand why I felt the way I did. I kept up with the self exploration and tried to grow through it. The book I'm reading talks about this in how to affair proof your marriage. And most of it is in self differentiating in healthy ways. I think that fits right in with what you are talking about here. You can't have a healthy marriage until you have a healthy self. That includes addressing your self esteem and dealing with the feelings you have, positive and negative, the right way.


Last edited by Steve85; 01/12/19 05:52 PM.

M(49), W(50),D(15)
M-19, T-21 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017

I am way better today than I was a year ago. Today I'm a man only a fool would leave. But I'm also a man that knows his own worth...
Re: Piecing....... [Re: Steve85] #2832528
01/12/19 07:51 PM
01/12/19 07:51 PM
Joined: Oct 2018
Posts: 800
D
DejaVu6 Offline
Member
DejaVu6  Offline
Member
D
Joined: Oct 2018
Posts: 800
I completely agree with you Steve. My H and I were living separate lives. Originally we were “tag teaming” on weekends with child care and while that gave one of us a break, we forgot about the importance of spending time together to keep the connection between us. Unfortunately, I know this now in hindsight. If I ever find myself in another long term relationship, I won’t make that mistake again. Good for you for having the maturity to self reflect and do the work. When the two of you are through this, your marriage will be better and stronger than it ever was before. I think you are both blessed to have this second chance and glad you are not wasting it. (((HUGS)))


Me 51
H 45
B/G Twins 11
SD19

Together 14 years
Married 12 years

BD1 - May 2014
BD2 - September 14, 2018
Re: Piecing....... [Re: Steve85] #2837450
02/15/19 03:05 AM
02/15/19 03:05 AM
Joined: Feb 2018
Posts: 4,131
S
Steve85 Offline OP
Member
Steve85  Offline OP
Member
S
Joined: Feb 2018
Posts: 4,131
Everyone, I am in tears typing this. I didn't want to put this in the newcomers because I know a lot of posters there are hurting today, and struggling. But my wife handed me a card tonight. It said on the front:

Not only am I glad we found each other.....

Then you open it and it says:

I'm glad we've never let go.

I can't believe it. If you had told me last year that this year I would get a card like this from her I would not have believed you at all! I am so humbled, and happy. I can't help but have tears well up thinking about it and reading this card.

I feel so blessed.


M(49), W(50),D(15)
M-19, T-21 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017

I am way better today than I was a year ago. Today I'm a man only a fool would leave. But I'm also a man that knows his own worth...
Re: Piecing....... [Re: Steve85] #2837464
02/15/19 04:47 AM
02/15/19 04:47 AM
Joined: Oct 2018
Posts: 800
D
DejaVu6 Offline
Member
DejaVu6  Offline
Member
D
Joined: Oct 2018
Posts: 800
Super happy for you Steve!!! Hope you had a great evening with your W. smile


Me 51
H 45
B/G Twins 11
SD19

Together 14 years
Married 12 years

BD1 - May 2014
BD2 - September 14, 2018
Re: Piecing....... [Re: Steve85] #2837482
02/15/19 12:43 PM
02/15/19 12:43 PM
Joined: Nov 2018
Posts: 204
L
Living Offline
Member
Living  Offline
Member
L
Joined: Nov 2018
Posts: 204
Originally Posted by Steve85
Everyone, I am in tears typing this. I didn't want to put this in the newcomers because I know a lot of posters there are hurting today, and struggling. But my wife handed me a card tonight. It said on the front:

Not only am I glad we found each other.....

Then you open it and it says:

I'm glad we've never let go.

I can't believe it. If you had told me last year that this year I would get a card like this from her I would not have believed you at all! I am so humbled, and happy. I can't help but have tears well up thinking about it and reading this card.

I feel so blessed.


Steve85, that was the sweetest card, you are blessed. You give me hope that maybe there is a sliver of a chance that my sitch will improve.

I also ageee with you upthread when you were talking about how we should always be working on the R. That’s the biggest lesson I learned from my sitch.

Glad things are going better for you!


Original BD: 10/26/2017
PA: 10/2017 - 11/2017
Second BD: 09/15/2018
Currently: IHS
M: 42 H: 45
S: 22 lives on his own D: 18 away at college S: 15 still lives at home - the only child we share together
Page 2 of 3 1 2 3

Moderated by  Virginia 

Save Your Marriage! Schedule Online

Schedule a phone consultation with a Divorce Busting® Coach! Call: 800-664-2435 or 303-444-7004