Thanks so much everyone for taking the time to respond. I ran out of time to respond on my own thread tonight but I hope to get caught up in the next few days with full responses to each response. Thanks again!
I have hesitated to post to you because I don't want to come off too harsh, and I feel like you might not agree with what I say because you are so dead set on getting your H back.
I read Blu's post to you, and WOW. Yes! it says so much to you and your sitch and what you and daughter deserve.
I also really don't have any family. I am an only child. My mother passed away when I was 21, and we never had a good R, as she was a bipolar recovering drug addict who picked drugs back up again when my dad left. My dad was all I had, and when I was 17, he left for his OW. He moved back to NY to build a life with his now wife. he was still present, but I never felt so abandoned and alone as my mother was going off the deep end and my dad wasn't there to protect me anymore. This lead to some really bad decisions in my life. One being my exH. This is the time we got together. I let him treat me so horribly because he was all I had. I allowed myself to be cheated on, disrespected, talked down to, all because if I let go of him, who did I have? I guess you could say he later did me a favor by letting go. He is no different the man who left me almost 11 years ago. For a period of time, of course, with a 6 month old baby, I thought I couldn't survive without him and him coming back would be the answer to everything and my life would be that much better. But LORD NO! If he was coming back unchanged, my life and my daughter's life would have been a pure hell. She would see me disrespected on a daily basis and I would have modeled a woman tolerating this. This is what she would have learned. I honestly cringe at the thought. We think showing that "standing for our marriage" is showing our kids something honorable. But no. When the other half violates those vows in so many numerous ways, it shows a lack of self worth. A marriage is more than living with someone and piece of paper. There are more ways to violate vows than infidelity. You ex is violating vows in every way imaginable.
And I know if he were to come home unchanged tomorrow you would accept him with open arms. What would that be showing yourself and your daughter? Imagine you were watching your daughter in your position? What would you want for her? For her to pine over a person who has proven he is a poor excuse for a husband and a father? For her to wait for him to come home? To have all of her moves dictated by his?
This is not meant to be insulting to you as a woman and a mother. I know your intentions are that you are standing for your M. You continue to say "my husband" every chance you can. He hasn't been a husband to you, but on paper.
I survived by making friends family. By knowing I am teaching my daughter self worth and self respect. Showing her I will be just fine and we will be just fine, just the two of us and the tribe we built.
You are going to literally waste what could be such a beautiful and fulfilling life waiting on a guy who is so lost and selfish and I would hate that for you and your daughter. You have a career, a wonderful child, hopefully a strong circle of friends, how is this disrespectful man going to make anything better?
I hope traveling to Europe and being with those who love and respect you open your eyes up to what this life has to offer without him. So much more than with him, quite honestly. And I believe in honoring marriage vows. But both sides have to do it. He is choosing to violate them in more ways than one. And you holding your growth and healing and life back for a lost man breaks my heart for you.
Thanks for posting that Ginger, I feel like that could have been written to me too. Don't be afraid of sounding too harsh, sometimes our realities our just that harsh, and we just can't accept it.
I also read what Blu wrote and think about my sitch too.
Nicole, I think it's hard, but it's time we start accepting deal with reality. I wish you good luck on that.
H 34 W 29 BD 3/12/18 Divorce Busted Spring 19
It is not things that bother us, but the stories we tell ourselves about things.
Nic - You are amazing!!! You are raising your D essentially on your own and you are not actively disrupting any potential relationship between your D and her father. That's no easy task when there is so much hardship between parents. I've seen the damage first hand when children are used as pawns to punish another parent. So Kudos Girl!!! Pat yourself on the back. Single parenting is exhausting and challenging but not impossible. You are doing a wonderful job.
You've asked me multiple times why I state that your H knows that you are still available as an option while you point out a list of things you have done that show you are not but as Blu pointed out - its symantics on your end that show how eager you are for any breadcrumbs thrown your way by him.
Anytime you miss a late night call, OR he seems sad, OR he looks puffy eyed you jump to the statement that perhaps he is starting to realize how much of a mistake he has made with you. That's a pretty big assumption on your part. You have NO idea why he has these issues. Not only is his personal life a mess but he has profound professional issues to --- trust me when a resident is let go from multiple jobs it is a huge red flag!!! It gets harder and harder to a job because future prospects will look to why he has been forced out. Quite frankly it appears he starts to feel bad for himself and falls back on you not because he wants you per say but because he can whine to you... that makes him feel better but at the cost of your hopes and sanity.
In my honest opinion I think you need to read DB about the Last Resort Option --- and go dark... go very very dark. And, you need to actual live your life like he is never coming back... which means when there is a missed call 1am you don't immediately ponder that if you had only taken that call he would have come back... stop that!!!
Trust me, if he does the work he needs to do to be the man you need not answering one phone call will not make him say "oh well...". When the guy really wants to come back he will be persistent. He will shout from the rooftops what a fool he had been and he will take the time to be patient and show consistent good behavior over time so that you know that its real. He will show interest in your feelings, concerns, etc. That's the one thing that has been lacking... concern for your feelings for such a long time.
One of the best words of advice I ever got in my life over a broken heart was that "I will get over it when I'm ready to be over it". Its true... when you are ready you will move on... we all grieve differently. I think what most of us are trying to say is that when you can see that missed call at 1am and go "what the crap does he want now" and really mean it then you will finially be detached. Moving a 1000miles away may put physical distance but you are no more detatched... and he isn't going to have any kind of wake up call until you really have detached and moved on.
I know this is hard.... holidays and all. Everyone here thinks the world of you and your D. We just want to see you live your best life! Hugs!!!!
Nicole: You have such a sweet soul. It hurts me that you're going through this.
You have to detach. He is never going to be what you deserve. He is a wayward and he really doesn't care about you. It's been over for more than a year.
You have to let go of the idea that you would be happy with him. He will only hurt you more. He will never be the man you and your daughter deserve.
You have to get divorced. You have to go NC. Please listen to everyone. I wouldn't be writing this if I didn't believe it was the best thing for you.
Save yourself. Nobody is coming! BD:11/2017 Filed:12/2017 Final: 2/2018
I tend to apologize or feel a bit guilty when I tell people things that might hurt their feelings or if I know it is something they don't want to hear. The thing is, we are all here because we care about one another and are (or have been) going through the same things. I have no reason to spend several hours a week reading and writing other than because I want to help people. It was the darkest time of my life and I needed help. .... As long as we don't insult one another, I think we owe it to each other to be honest. Validation alone, is not going to get us through these hard times. I didn't post here during my sitch, but I did talk to several close friends. Sometimes they said hurtful things to me about H that I did not want to hear! I am now glad for some of those truth darts, because it shocked me into some detachment. We need to see reality, and not just what we want to see. I have noticed Nicole has a pattern of ducking out of her thread for a few days when she gets posts that challenge her beliefs, so perhaps she is thinking about some of this. I hope so.
Blu
“Forgiveness liberates the soul. It removes fear. That is why it is such a powerful weapon.” – Nelson Mandela
Nicole, I've tried to gently chide you into detaching and moving on, but I have to say, I agree with a lot of what was said in recents posts. (And yes, I get the hypocrisy, as hard as it's been for me to move on. I think it's easier to see clearly in other people's situation than your own.) I know it's hard, but you have it in you!
M:23 T:26 Me:53, Wife: 60 S:18 D:16 filed 7/16 W moved out 4/28/17
Hi all, thanks again for so many of you taking the time to write and comment. I had no idea that my boring old thread would attract traffic!
I try to respond to others' threads before my own but I'm not very fast and lately, between work, my daughter's needs, illness, activities, etc.. I haven't done well in saying thank you to those who take the time to share their valuable time and encouragement. Last night I wanted to write a long message but one thing led to another and suddenly it was after midnight so let me try to catch up. I really appreciate all of your responses and I'm sorry because there are still a few from a few weeks or months ago that I never got to respond to individually. I'll try to find them over the holidays and respond because I remember there were some important points and advice.
I'll do my best to respond to each of your messages without writing a 50 page novel.
Ovrrnbw, there may be a temp check. I really don't know what my husband's cryptic words meant. I'll try not to take the bait.
Davide, I like your suggestion to not be overly friendly or interested. Despite all my doubts it makes most sense. Regarding sleeping over on Christmas, I just don't know. I believe the DB book says exceptions can and should be made when it comes to family time and Christmas may be an exception. If it makes our daughter happy and he sleeps in the spare room then I don't see it as detrimental but I'm open to canceling the idea.
Jim, my husband may just automatically drive to his family anyway but as mentioned above I think Christmas might be the one day of the year where an exception can be made. What would you do? And I remember some times where your wife wanted to be included in family activities. Do you think you made the right decision to let her? I hear what you're saying on living the new life as truth. It IS better than where we were last year at this time. It IS a new life, one that wasn't planned, and one where I've learned to live solo. I don't know what my husband thinks of it, or if he cares or notices, but I'll try to keep merging my thoughts and actions to embrace the 'moved on' aspect.
Bluwave, I'm sorry that my response to one or more of your messages was lacking or sounded dismissive. It sounds like you feel resentment and want to clear the air. I'm guilty of rattling off messages sometimes without proofreading and I know I've missed some. It sounds like you really enjoy helping people and you get frustrated when someone doesn't get the boost you tried to offer. I'll try to go back and find your old messages and see what I said or did that was offensive to you. I'll respond again once I find it. Regarding spelling out 'my husband' honestly I do remember this being offered as a suggestion, to find a different word or acronym, but I think I forgot and didn't realize it until you sent this reminder. I'm not really sure what to call him - I feel like technically he's a husband on paper until we get divorced, then he's an ex-husband. I can change it to WH or WAS to fit better within the terminologies used on this site and see if it catches on. Let me think what might be the best acronym. Regarding my husband being a bad person, yes, he became someone unrecognizable. For over seven years he was a kind, gentle, thoughtful, funny, and loving man. Then he became the polar opposite. I don't want that version of him back and I can't take him back after he's done this twice, but the old version was a good man. It's hard to make sense of it all. I make progress but something like our anniversary or the holidays bring back memories of the good days. You mention a deep rooted fear of being alone, abandonment, depression, and anxiety. I think I've struggled with a lot anxiety over certain things, especially health and religion. I've felt depressed a lot since this happened, not the bedridden kind but more like extreme emotional pain and endless tears. I went through ages 18 - 30 mostly alone in life. Put myself through college and grad school, traveled, built my career, etc.. without family moral support or financial help. I had one long-term, eight-year relationship that was mostly long-distance before I met my husband. It kept going because we'd meet up and travel and we had mutual interests but I don't think it was love. I broke it off when he and his family started to get really controlling and suggested I change my career to stop traveling to war zones. When I got married it was amazing. It's like I had thought all those years being on my own weren't ideal but they were fine. Being married was just great. It was like a huge bonus. I realized how great it was to lay on the bed and talk about everything before falling asleep. How fun it was to plan weekend activities and dream about the future. We laughed and helped one another with chores and did special things for one another. It was better than living solo. I was so happy and it even brought me closer to my family because they loved my husband and he helped to mitigate the bad behaviors my mother normally showed. When he was around she was on her best behavior. Now here I am, alone again. I'm not sure if it's a fear of being alone per se, but a fear that there's no guarantee I'll find such a partnership again, at least not soon. I know I need to be more confident and positive and push away the doubts because there is one other man I love, and that man loves me (but we chose separate paths and he's married so not an option), so if there are two then maybe there could be three. And I know there are many people out there who say it's important to be happy alone and to not need anyone else, but in my experience life was better when shared with someone special. Sure I can go back to being alone....I guess I already did. It's just happening right at a time when we had a beautiful daughter and we had the financial means and stability to live a dream life. I thought what we had was great, so it's a horrible feeling to know that what I thought was great was so terrible for my husband that he had to leave. Here we were together with totally opposite experiences. I take the blame for taking a huge risk on a man from the Middle East. Right now I feel like more of a fool than a victim, but if I find out this was all a big immigration scam I will feel like a victim at least for a while I'm sure. Am I codependent? Maybe. I think my original response may have been from an anthropological perspective rooted in the belief that we're designed to be codependent and it's natural to want to live in pairs or groups. I tried to look up the clinical definition of codependency and it says "excessive emotional or psychological reliance on a partner, typically a partner who requires support due to an illness or addiction." I feel it's a subjective term. We're probably all a little co-dependent here in this group to want to save our marriages, so where do you draw the line? It's not something that my counselors or psychologist suggested so I may have dismissed it earlier on because it wasn't on my radar. Usually I feel that mental illnesses need to be diagnosed clinically, otherwise we might end up labeling ourselves or others with conditions that they may or may not have. I will take a second look at it with the next counselor I see. I've tried start with new a counselor that takes my insurance here but with a new job I don't have much accrued leave to take off and in the evenings I have to pay a babysitter and it's a hassle. What past counselors have suggested, and what I keep hearing from friends in real life, is that I lack confidence. I guess the bottom line is that you, and many others here, believe wholeheartedly in the DB approach. You feel confident advocating it and your messages and encouragement are based on the belief that if we fully embrace it we'll find happiness again with or without our spouses. I did choose to go with the DB approach as well, but many of my posts raise my skepticism of it because my situation has been going on for a long time now and while DB may have contributed to stopping an actual divorce, I haven't experienced that feeling of euphoria and moment of clarity that yes, I want to get a divorce! Or "I don't care!" I'm just so analytical. I look at the short and long term, micro and macro, one theory vs another theory and I just feel plain confused. I feel I have no belief system, no strong conviction, and no clarity because the evidence is lacking in all directions. If DB is about saving oneself that's great, and eventually we all need to save ourselves in our new solo roles, but if DB can only anecdotally claim to save marriages and there's no evidence that it works then who is to say it's better than another approach, such as filing for immediate divorce when a spouse cheats or leaves, or marriage counseling, or whatever else one might choose to do. I've built a new life and I now have a wonderful job, my daughter is happy with her school, and our evenings and weekends are filled with fun activities but I have this lingering doubt and skepticism about what step to take next. I don't think happiness is the only metric now that counts - there are practical issues related to my daughter and our finances too. I'm also exhausted from having orchestrated this whole process starting from zero and having been ill for an extended period of time, so I do want to snap my fingers and be happy and know that I deserve better, because yes, we all deserve to have loving people in our lives. I just struggle with relying 100% on one method and I feel I need to really believe in my next steps, so I keep questioning everything. It's kind of like religion. Let's say someone walks into a church and everyone tells that person to believe in that religion but that person knows there are other religions out there and no hard evidence making one more right than others. Which one do you choose? I'll stop there because now I really did write a 50 page novel, but I wanted to fully respond to your post and I'll respond more when I find your old ones. I really admire your confidence and conviction because that's what I'm lacking in my life, and this is something that needs to come from within, so I need to find it.
Neffer, thanks, yes I read Bluwave's post. I just responded to it!
Hi Ginger, thanks for taking the time to share your story. It sounds like you really understand what it's like to stand on your own two feet and be a leader to your daughter. I'm sorry to hear you had to go through all that. It's tough, especially when you look around and see so many loving families and wonder why you can't have the same. We don't all have the good fortune to be born into the perfect loving family and when we dream to create that perfect family as adults, and it doesn't work out, and our kids get stuck in the same trap, it feels hard to see the light. It's good that you reached a point where you could see why having your daughter's father come back wouldn't be good for you nor her. It sounds like you've done great fighting to do what's right for your daughter and yourself. It's interesting to hear how you can trace the cause of everything to that period when neither of your parents were there for you and you married the wrong guy. Sounds like you have a good understanding of why everything happened and you understand the consequences of being with a man who isn't loving, dedicated, stable, etc.. Regarding my husband I did take him back the first time. I can't take him back a second time with open arms but I also don't want to move on so fast and file for divorce that I regret something later on. My husband was a really good guy. He cracked under the pressure of his career and having our daughter and having his whole family move here all at the same time. He went off the deep end. He messed up his whole life and ours too. I feel like I need to process it, give it time, and be confident in my decisions. I'm not looking to date any time soon and every so often miracles do happen, particularly in a religious setting where someone really sees the light and turns their life around, but I'm fully aware that my husband may be lost for a long time. I also did bad things to my husband to punish him and I need to keep improving myself. I've made some progress with gaining confidence, being more positive, dealing better with some chronic health problems, etc.. but I need to keep going. I will try to keep seeing the importance of both sides honoring marriage vows and why it can't work when one person doesn't.
Ovvrnbw, I know you understand because your wife has been back-and-forth and you've had to keep recalibrating and deciding how to proceed. I did accept the demise of my marriage when I decided to move, but as life has improved and my husband has warmed up again I have a hard time filing for divorce right now. The holidays are just such a difficult time.
KitKat, thanks for your continued encouragement. Yes my husband is a mess. I think he has lucid moments where he realizes what he's done and he definitely feels guilty which is why he keeps buying us stuff and sent a luxury car, etc.. My daughter and I have been sick and he keeps offering to pay a babysitter so I can rest and keeps asking if he can prescribe me anything (my daughter told him and then he asked to talk to me). I don't know how to explain the variability in our communications. This morning my husband called at 8 AM and I texted him that I can't talk. I forgot about it and he called back again two times later and I finally answered. I can't go completely NC because of our daughter but I have been successful in limiting conversations to a few minimal words. I'll try to re-read the DB book again. I've made quite a bit of progress in detaching because last year at this time I'd cry uncontrollably when my husband called whereas now I can ignore him or talk briefly but those lingering feelings and doubts reappear at strategic times like the holidays.
Joe, thanks for your honesty. I do believe that for those who can handle it, filing for immediate divorce is the best option. Once things go on long enough being separated becomes a new way of life and it's not a long-term solution. I'll think about your strong conviction that divorce is the only option. I agree that a year is a good benchmark to pass and if the marriage hasn't been fixed it's not worth saving, however, I never wanted to get divorced so it's hard to find the urgency in filing. It's almost better when the other person does it like your ex-wife did. Then you have no choice, and you're catapulted forward, and you give up completely.
Bluwave, I see you that you've been through this and you want to help others. It's a noble thing to do. I'm sure everyone here appreciates the time you spend writing to them when you could be out doing plenty of other things. It's great that you take a no nonsense approach and think rationally since so many here can barely think at all right after their spouses leave. I'm not sure what you mean about me ducking out when my beliefs are challenged. I feel like I usually write way too much, and probably no one reads half of what I write, but sometimes I struggle to respond quickly due to work, my daughter, etc... I don't mind hearing what others have to say. If I didn't want to be challenged I wouldn't post on a forum and share my deepest fears and doubts with strangers in hopes of learning from one another. I get the impression I said or did something that really bothered you so I will try to read my old posts as if I'm someone else and try to pick up on what it was.
Jim, thanks for your gentle style and for being personable, showing sympathy, and for all of your support over the past year. I really appreciate all of your input. I admire you for your strength and honesty.
On a separate note, the guy that I liked at work wrote saying he quit his job and he's moving back to his home country. He sent me his new personal contact info to get in touch when I arrive in his home country in a few months. I think I'll contact him. I was determined to have a fun time with him. Maybe I'll give it one more shot.
Nicole I fully understand that in my situation it was easier because she ditched me. Even though I held on with everything I could. But I did get a D. That’s how I am able to stand on the OTHER side of D and see what it gave me. Nicole, it gave me PEACE.
Even after the divorce was final I would get messages from her like “You were never good enough for me.” and “Please let me know if you’re going to be at school picking up S17 because S15 is going to be there and I don’t want him to see you.” I mean... months after the divorce she sent me a message telling me that she is the reason I’m successful and it was her all along. The D did not stop her from harassing me.
But you know what? I already had my piece (peace?) of paper called a divorce decree. It was physical but helped me mentally. I was done and nothing she had to say even registered. I moved onto another chapter and I felt such relief that I didn’t feel obligated to her as a spouse.
Yes, I understand you have a child with the man. You will have to interact. But you will also have the FREEDOM to find another man. Without guilt. Without feeling like a cheater yourself.
Nicole, it’s time to move on with your life. You can’t wait for this guy. The more you hang on the more he’s going to keep you by a thread.
Do you like living like this? I know the answer is no. I know there is extreme sadness and there are days where the uncertainty can be unbearable. You don’t deserve to live like this. Your kid does not deserve to live like this. Do you remember when he said that he wished you had gotten an abortion?!!??! I do, and it disgusts me and makes me so sad for you.
We are all here for you.
Save yourself. Nobody is coming! BD:11/2017 Filed:12/2017 Final: 2/2018
Been reading your sitch trying to catch up. You are a wonderful person. I see you always as being hopeful and polite even when people need to be hit with a 2x4. You have this optimism about you. And I see others have tried to talk to you about waking up or moving forward. Whatever you decide to do, I hope it makes you happy. BUT I HOPE you do the right thing for you.
And wassup with meeting guys who are all moving or long distance? Did I read that right? H was from Middle East right, and the guy in the office is moving over seas? You need a Tinder app for the guy next door to keep it local
I like when Maika broke down the summary of what you had been going through and all you accomplished. Your H is making it easy for you. You should take his cue.
Okay, I stayed up way past my bed time. Here take these (())
H 49 , W 47 T 23, M 17 S11, S5 BD: 7/18 IHS: 7/18 - 3/19 Physically Separated: 3/19-4/19 Piecing: 4/19 - Current
BH: 36 WW:33 M: 2 Relationship: 6 years. Dday: Aug 2018 0 1st mention of D: 30/09, 2nd Mention 17/02/2019 LRT: Oct 2018 WW & AP: EA & PA since June 2018 (Moved country and in with AP Feb 2019)
Morning Nic, just like all the people here- I am cheering for yo. I know you can do it. Just like you - I am struggling through this holiday season. What was once the most magical time for me and my family has turned into a time of anger and feelings of being broken. I met my W at Christmas - and it was such a celebration of our unity along with the birth of our savior. Now just seeing other families makes it very hard. As my priest says this too shall pass. I hope and pray that we can all find peace in our hearts so that we can heal and Love again. Blessings !
M51 w50 T-20Yrs M-16Yrs S15- mad at W for not trying and giving up 1 Awesum dog BD 10/31/17 separate rooms 02/08/18 wife moved out 05/17/18
Nicole - wow! That was quite a response. One thing that I have admired about you is that you do have a open heart and you leave it on the page. There is so much to process and respond to in what you wrote. I am going to try and pick out some key things and give you my thoughts.
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Regarding my husband being a bad person, yes, he became someone unrecognizable. For over seven years he was a kind, gentle, thoughtful, funny, and loving man. Then he became the polar opposite. I don't want that version of him back and I can't take him back after he's done this twice, but the old version was a good man.
I know you've said this before, but with your deep desire to keep the marriage, I am wondering how much you're willing to bend on this. In all your writing, I feel that you prioritize saving the marriage vs. reclaiming yourself. I don't believe that you would make it easy for him, but I believe that you have a breaking point and you would cave in to have him back rather than have a relationship that meets your true needs as a woman and partner. You still have an attachment to the 'familiar' prior to him wreaking havoc on the marriage, and it seems you're not able to shake it off. The good news is that I believe you have given us more insight into your life and your challenges and I'll talk about them below.
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You mention a deep rooted fear of being alone, abandonment, depression, and anxiety. I think I've struggled with a lot anxiety over certain things, especially health and religion.
I believe one thing we haven't explored is your relationship with your religious beliefs. I have read in the past how your beliefs have wired you from going out dating and meeting people and even having casual sexual relationships. I am not here to change your religious beliefs and ask you to abandon them. What I am curious is if you had the same religious beliefs as WH prior to meeting him or if you converted? If they were same prior to WH, did you freely explore the religion or was it something passed down in the family and you were expected to have the same beliefs? I'd like to see more on this and you exploring whether the beliefs you have are truly yours or something that was bequeathed to you through family. If you converted, why did you do that? Was it because you truly agreed with those religious beliefs or was it because it was needed to get married?
The reason I am asking about this is because I am wondering how much self-exploration you have done about what your values are and if they are actually 'yours' or if you adopted these values because of other reasons. And this dovetails into my next point.
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I went through ages 18 - 30 mostly alone in life.
How much are your beliefs about being rooted in a community and having a community around you? Loneliness is a beast and wanting to be part of something can spark adopting specific religious beliefs to have a sense of community and togetherness.
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What past counselors have suggested, and what I keep hearing from friends in real life, is that I lack confidence.
Understanding your life story, that makes 100% sense. Of course you lack confidence in yourself and that's keep you from moving forward because I believe at the core, I don't think you know who you really are and what you really want. Going inward is scary. I know from experience. But, you need to do that and understand where that lack of confidence is coming from, and if your actions are resulting from you wanting to fill that void.
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And I know there are many people out there who say it's important to be happy alone and to not need anyone else, but in my experience life was better when shared with someone special.
Absolutely. Life is incredible when shared with someone else. However, if a partnership is needed as an escape strategy from your own self and creating your own happiness, then it's never going to yield those dividends because your well-being is entirely dependent on the partnership. And I won't go into your response around co-dependency, but when you add up everything in your life: loneliness + lack of confidence + sparse meaningful relationships + roots of your belief systems - your relationship with WH screams of co-dependency. I know it's hard to see it when you're in it, but it's so obvious to outsiders that you are using this partnership to self-medicate your hurt from your life. That will never solve it.
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I look at the short and long term, micro and macro, one theory vs another theory and I just feel plain confused. I feel I have no belief system, no strong conviction, and no clarity because the evidence is lacking in all directions. If DB is about saving oneself that's great, and eventually we all need to save ourselves in our new solo roles, but if DB can only anecdotally claim to save marriages and there's no evidence that it works then who is to say it's better than another approach, such as filing for immediate divorce when a spouse cheats or leaves, or marriage counseling, or whatever else one might choose to do.
I feel on being analytical. I also have similar tendencies. But, trying the constantly keep peeling the layers with the belief that some more profound truth will be found is a fruitless task. At some point, it's turtles all the way down. This goes back to my original point above - you are prioritizing saving your marriage vs. reclaiming yourself. The truth is that the former will never happen without the latter. The best chance you can have is by focusing on the latter. Yes, DB has it's shortcomings and it's marketed to 'save' marriages, but once you're in this dimension, it becomes evidently clear that this is a long game and the path towards it is through you, not around you. You cannot hang on to your marriage - this is why you haven't let go, detached, and started to live your life on your own terms. I don't think you can live life on your own terms because you haven't dealt with your confidence issues, your belief systems, and working on changing your story from the past to what you want in the future, and even in the now.
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I agree that a year is a good benchmark to pass and if the marriage hasn't been fixed it's not worth saving, however, I never wanted to get divorced so it's hard to find the urgency in filing. It's almost better when the other person does it like your ex-wife did. Then you have no choice, and you're catapulted forward, and you give up completely.
Last point. I think it's a good DB message to not move ahead with divorce if you don't want it. I think it definitely makes sense for the first 12-18 months because the LBS is still finding their feet. However, I think at this point the LBS has to seriously contemplate their relationship with 'standing' for the marriage. I am not the one to say that you should file for D and etc etc, but I will say that you have to reckon with yourself why you would want to continue in the face of the WH/WW doing whatever they're doing. The LBS has to take back control and make decisions, even if the decision is to do nothing and continue the current trajectory. I am not a proponent of leaving the D decision to the WW/WH. If they file, so be it. But if they don't, the LBS has to decide. As you know, in my case, I took action and made the decision because I wanted to chart my life based on my values and needs, and not be subject to the whims of someone else.
I believe you need to seriously consider this question, among other questions I have raised.
I will share one more thing from my journey, which loops back to something I mentioned earlier. I left my religion and community 4 years ago. It was a road that was about 8 years in the making. I knew that my values didn't align with the religious community, and it took that much time to muster up the conviction and courage to leave knowing full well that I was going to lose an entire community of people. But what I believed was more important and I had given it serious thought and talked to many people.
The point of that story is not to convince you to give up your religious beliefs. The point is that you need to understand why you do what you do and believe what you believe. And also to illustrate that I know the journey is hard. But saving yourself and getting to the point of clarity is worth every moment of pain and rejection.
My hope is that you push yourself further with all of this and get comfortable being uncomfortable. The biggest growth will come from that. I am in your corner always!
You have so many people pulling for you on here, it is incredible. I think it is also a testament to how open and honest you have been, how receptive to criticism, and how articulate you are. Your online persona is so strong and generates such empathy because so many of us can relate. Maika's comments above are well beyond what I can contribute, and I will continue to read them myself. I think that what he writes about lack of confidence and co-dependency is applicable to so many of us on here.
I would still push you to consider not allowing H to stay at your house for Christmas. He is already staying elsewhere for a week or more, right? So, let him handle the inconvenience of driving over. It just doesn't seem healthy for you to have to endure him spending the night. Perhaps that is just projection because I know that it would likely drive me crazy.
I know what you mean when you talk about preferring life in a partnership to life alone. I also lived on my own from 18-34 and had my fill of the single life. However, I think any successful relationship has to come from a position of strength and abundance not need. It is only once you are capable of loving yourself that you can share the overflowing love with another. Being with someone to fill that hole within yourself rarely works out well.
I also hear you about marrying someone from another country. There were times early in my marriage where I questioned whether or not I was being used to get a visa. It was really just garden-variety insecurity on my part because I was so in love and thought that my W was out of my league. At least in my case I don't believe that immigration status played any role (my W had no desire to live in the US, and in fact gave up Canadian residency to move here with me), but it is hard. My W got her citizenship in Sep. and BDed me in April. It was hard to let go of the idea that I helped her through that entire process only for her to walk away right after.
You are on the right path, Nicole. Keep focusing on your personal growth and your D.
W 34 Me 42 Married 7 years together 8 0 kids 1 beloved dog BD 4/6/2018 I moved out 4/7/2018 I moved back in alone 8/05/2018 I file 3/06/2019 D official 5/7/2019
Today is crazy busy and I dont have time to read everything and write a thorough response. I wish I did!Sorry to rush in and out. ... I did want to make sure to be clear that I feel no resentment about anything and you do not owe me any explanations! We are good (from my view point), sister! I honestly do not feel much emotional investment in posting here in general, but more so, I simply want to offer support and advice based on my own experiences. I have followed your threads and I have seen where I think you are stuck and it is preventing you from moving forward and detaching. I don't think it would be a good use of your time to go back and reread anything.
I do think it would help you to really take in and analyze the common themes and advice between posters. IMO, that is accepting the reality of who your H is now, verses who he was before, and to stop longing for what you used to have and how you imagine it could be. I think we all agree that you are an intelligent, caring and very likable person based on what we know. You deserve a partner in life that values you and your relationship. None of us are able to see that your WH can offer you that any longer. I tend to believe that the posters here that are "successful" at DBing are not necessarily the ones that have saved their M, but more so are the people that have done some soul searching, detached from an unhealthy relationship and are moving into the future stronger and with more optimism. I do not believe there is any marriage saving program that can actually "save a marriage," because we can never control another person.
I'll be back when things slow down. I truly mean no harm and wish you the best. You are still young and have so much to offer, and you and your D deserve so much better than WH could ever provide at this point. So for now, GAL GAL GAL as best you can and in every way possible, and in time you will have that increase in confidence if you have faith in yourself. You gotta first believe it!
Blu
“Forgiveness liberates the soul. It removes fear. That is why it is such a powerful weapon.” – Nelson Mandela
You deserve a partner in life that values you and your relationship. None of us are able to see that your WH can offer you that any longer. I tend to believe that the posters here that are "successful" at DBing are not necessarily the ones that have saved their M, but more so are the people that have done some soul searching, detached from an unhealthy relationship and are moving into the future stronger and with more optimism.
Well said, Blu.
M:23 T:26 Me:53, Wife: 60 S:18 D:16 filed 7/16 W moved out 4/28/17
Wow Nicole, the past few days your thread has lit up,huh? There is such great advice from various vets here it is amazing, I read thru a lot here and I know so much of it applies to me too. Just like you and so many others here, in a secret recess of our heart we want the MR saved, we want a remorseful spouse that goes back to their self that we married. But that is what it really is, just a tiny desire of the heart. Our realities do not reflect that, I have struggled like you analyzing how the saint of my H became an out of control wayward fool overnight? I am not the same person I was at BD, so is it so hard to believe the person we married changed so much? If the change is revered that is great but that’s not the situation right now. You know WH has put me thru all kinds of heck, as a mother you have despised his actions. Do you know what his only saving grace has been, that he did not abandon the kids completely (not yet at least), but your WH did that and more. He chooses to not see your D regularly andnit be involved in her life? We both know even at this age their minds are so sharp and our Ds are understanding all this their own way. Show her through your life that neither of you need him anymore , let her learn that you both deserve better by observing the conference mother she has. Before he can show remorse as a H he has so much to repair as a father first. Your heart is filled with kindness , he is misusing it according to me. I understand he is middle eastern, no culture teaches you to treat your W and D badly, in fact those cultures are more conservative of the family set up. He does not deserve you sweety
Chiming in to say that, like just about everyone here, you deserve much better. You strike me as thoughtful, caring, articulate, intelligent and spiritual, and you deserve so so much better.
Not only for yourself, but also for your D. Be the role model for her, so that she knows what a strong woman looks like, and what a strong woman deserves in her own life down the road.
To paraphrase what I said in a different thread, be queen in your own house. Don’t let H stay with you when he treats you like that.
Be queen in your own house, and I know that one day you will find someone worthy of you who will treat you as that queen. Stay strong.
Thanks all for your kind comments! I have some deadlines coming up before the holiday break but I look forward to responding over the weekend. Thanks again!
I really wanted to respond sooner but I had deadlines right up until Christmas Eve and then the last few days have been exhausting with Christmas and my daughter being home and all the activities.
I promise I will respond to each of your recent posts. I don't want to procrastinate but I know tonight I don't have the stamina to write everything that I want to say. I want to share a quick update though. On Christmas day my husband came in the morning and spent half the day here. He never asked to sleep here or anything so there was no issue. Yesterday he came for a little while to see our daughter and then today he watched her for three hours while I met a colleague. When I came back he left and our daughter said she asked him when he's going to come back and he told her today that he'll never, ever live with us again and he asked if she was upset about that. That really bothered me a lot. I called him and he said he's soon going to file for divorce. I told him our daughter is an innocent child and I don't want him to say those things to her or ask her if she's upset when he already has no plan to return. He made a lot of threats, tried to intimidate me, and kept saying "we can do this the smooth easy way or fight in court. It's your choice." It's as if he suddenly snapped back to being that terrible person he was last winter. He also says he's still moving to our area soon.
My only interpretation for my husband's behavior is that his behavior depends on how things are going with his girlfriend. I assume he and she are doing well so she's probably been pressuring him to get divorced or perhaps he has a new woman lined up and he wants to be totally free. Who knows. My other conclusion is that I really do believe there's an immigration scam aspect to our situation. I sponsored my him here from a war zone and while he didn't leave right after he got a green card or citizenship, he left once he had a residency and job and after his whole family was safely settled here. Basically he stayed until he no longer needed my help and then my daughter and I became a burden. That's my overall take on our situation - that yes there are a lot of similarities to other cases especially when it comes to cheating but the timing of everything leads me to believe this may have been planned intentionally. I assume he'll spend many years dating and enjoying his life and eventually he'll settle down with someone who he really wants, at a time when he's truly ready, and he'll probably be a decent husband at that time since he was a great one to me until he left the first time.
I honestly don't feel I have the strength to go through the divorce process at this time. I'm really run down from working, being a single parent, chores, activities, being sick, etc.. but I don't have any choice if he files now. I'm sad about everything, blaming myself for marrying a bad person and sad that the one I loved would do this to me and an innocent child. Even if he turned into a monster and I don't want this version of him, there'll always be the memories of our seemingly happy years together when we were young and had the whole future in front of us. One important thing to note is that sometimes we here on this site are simply grieving. We can be told to GAL or detach more and more but what we really need at times is just some sympathy and someone to listen. That's how I feel at the moment and that's what I sense about many of you too!
Right before I was about to hit the bed and play some silly game on the ipad, you get my eyes all puffy and red... now how am I supposed to level up? Wont be able to see the screen well, but that's okay, I need to rest these eyes anyways.
Its so sad how the people we love can show this other side of themselves. Growing up, I've seen couples separate and from the outside looking in, they looked perfectly fine. But having this happen first hand, there's so much devastation.
You may not feel like you have the strength now, but you're strong and you have a good heart. You're not weak and you will endure. You have a lot going on and this by itself is overwhelming. Give yourself some time. Allow yourself some time and space to grieve.
And remember, no blame games, this even means no blaming yourself. It's your H fault for turning into what he is. Makes me want to punch him in the face for saying that to your Daughter, much (()) to her. I wouldn't worry about H. He could be spending the rest of his life trying to get back the good life he had with you. Don't waste your energy on him. Keep that focus where it needs to be on you and your daughter. Wishing you much happiness and peace into the new year.
H 49 , W 47 T 23, M 17 S11, S5 BD: 7/18 IHS: 7/18 - 3/19 Physically Separated: 3/19-4/19 Piecing: 4/19 - Current
You do have strength in you. YOU CAN DO THIS! I know how much you love your girl. You can do this for both of you. Look how much you've already accomplished!!! Remember when this started? Remember when you didn't know if there was even going to be a tomorrow? You have come so far Nicole! You're going to make it. Keep on going!
Also, I know we have always said this to you on this site but... WHO CARES what your WH is doing? Or what he will be doing in the future!?!? You know what? All those awesome things you think he's going to experience that you fret over? YOU CAN DO AWESOME THINGS TOO!!!!! And you won't be a lying cheat!!! You won't have any guilt or remorse. You're the winner in this situation, even though it feels like the opposite. I promise.
It's gonna be OK.
Save yourself. Nobody is coming! BD:11/2017 Filed:12/2017 Final: 2/2018
Nicole... you H is a first class jerk. You and your daughter deserve so much better. I know things are tough right now. You need to take care of yourself and your D first and foremost. I know it doesn’t seem like it, but your H has done you a favour by revealing his character now instead of years down the road. You are still young and you have a great life ahead of you. Your H’s life will pale in comparison. And like Joe said...he will always be a lying cheat no matter what he does. You deserve much, much better.
You do have the strength. Just take it one day at a time and deal with what is right in front of you. That’s all you need to do right now. You will get there. I have absolutely no doubt about that. (((Nicole)))
Nicole, you are going to be fine. It is going to take a long time. It is going to be painful. It won't be fun. You will come out the other side, though.
Now you KNOW there's going to be no reconciliation. You can let go of that hope, and move on with your life. It's so hard, I know, and I really feel for you.
He's doing the typical WASpouse thing though, where he says "it can be easy or hard, it's up to you." He wants it all. He wants the divorce, and he wants it to be easy. I'm not advocating making it unnecessarily hard, but he will probably classify making sure you get what you deserve as "hard". Tough. Stick up for yourself and D.
I think you are exactly right, though, about grieving. We've suffered a significant loss, and it takes time to get beyond it. I think in some ways it's harder than being widowed, because the other person is sometimes around, and we get reminded of our loss and our rejection every time we see them.
M:23 T:26 Me:53, Wife: 60 S:18 D:16 filed 7/16 W moved out 4/28/17
your H is doing the same stuff. He's full of lies and doesn't care if he hurts you. I'd just use that to fuel your fire to detach.
I wouldn't believe a word out of his mouth. I wouldn't bother to call him. I'd just go live your life.
As for this quote:
Originally Posted by Jim1234
Now you KNOW there's going to be no reconciliation.
I wouldn't make any assumptions. I'd stop thinking like this altogether, Nicole. The whole "we're getting divorced, we're not getting divorced" back and forth just hurts you. So don't even think about it. Don't think about how things are with OW.
Just let him go.
H 34 W 29 BD 3/12/18 Divorce Busted Spring 19
It is not things that bother us, but the stories we tell ourselves about things.
your H is doing the same stuff. He's full of lies and doesn't care if he hurts you. I'd just use that to fuel your fire to detach.
I wouldn't believe a word out of his mouth. I wouldn't bother to call him. I'd just go live your life.
As for this quote:
Originally Posted by Jim1234
Now you KNOW there's going to be no reconciliation.
I wouldn't make any assumptions. I'd stop thinking like this altogether, Nicole. The whole "we're getting divorced, we're not getting divorced" back and forth just hurts you. So don't even think about it. Don't think about how things are with OW.
Just let him go.
I think the important thing is you Live your life like there isn't going to be any reconciliation. You never do know, but healing will truly come when you love your life that way.
Absolutely sometime we just need a hug while going through the grieving process. And grieving is healthy. It is a helluva process, but one that is necessary.
I see a very bright future for you and your daughter once you process everything.
Hi all, allow me to respond to today's remarks but I still promise to get through the previous ones as soon as possible.
Adam, thanks a lot for your encouragement. You speak the truth. I will try to keep enduring. I hope you were able to get some sleep!
Joe, thanks. It's good to hear from you since you've been through it. I was thinking of moving overseas but last night my husband was threatening that he'll want 50% custody despite never having cared for our daughter himself. I will do whatever I can, but with a child and such an unpredictable, erratic person with shared legal rights over the child I don't see myself having the same freedom he has. But I'll do my best. My heart is so broken that this beautiful innocent child has to go through this. I'd do anything to offer her a good home with a mother and father. There's nothing that can fix that dream and nothing that can replace having two loving parents united in supporting their child through life. I can't offer it to my daughter on my own. I waited five years after we got married to have a child because I wanted to make sure we were going to stay together. I waited until well after he became a US citizen just to feel like there was no doubt we could raise a child together. Yet here she is, she'll never even remember the brief time we lived as a family before he left. I don't feel like a winner at all, but I do know that I've really tried my best to save this marriage.
Hi Dejavu, thanks for your response. Unfortunately this all started a long time ago, nearly 3.5 years ago. I still wanted to save this marriage for many reasons - for our daughter, because we had a great life together before he left the first time, because we were just about to have the perfect life....I know we deserve better. I just hope I don't have a heart attack from the divorce process because it's just so painful!
Jim, yes that's all true, especially about being widowed being easier. Thankfully I moved on already, in most regards, but the divorce process is obviously the biggest step towards ending a marriage. I do think eventually he will try to come back when he comes to his senses but this has been going on for so many years, and it will likely be years before he comes back, and it would take years to reconcile, so there's not really any hope for the next 10 + years. During that time who knows what will happen. I wish to find a new husband but that'll take a miracle. I'm not so concerned about the financial part of the divorce but I'm more concerned about him wanting any custody over our daughter. He's not a stable person and he's never been a good father. I don't know yet what I'll be able to do, if anything, to prevent him from having her. He never wanted her before, so I think he's only trying to intimidate me now but it's hard to know what he's thinking. He may or may not file for divorce any time soon. His words don't usually equal his actions but I preferred to stay separated until I have a clearer direction in my life. I think it's especially cruel to bring this up during the holidays, just like last year, so our holidays are ruined for the second year.
Hi Ovrrnbw, that's right his mind keeps changing. He was definitely not sure about getting divorced over the summer. Then there was a distinct change which can be best explained by him getting back with his girlfriend of finding a new one. It'd be easier to let him go if we didn't have a child together. Since we do, this means we have to keep being in touch and agreeing on a lot of things for the next 18 to 20 years until she's out-of-college. This makes it much harder, so in your case it's good you and your wife don't have kids!
Ginger, there's so much we don't know about our futures. Right now the part that makes me grieve the most is that our poor daughter has to be caught up in custody issues and fights over things that are beyond her control. My heart is so broken that her life is starting out this way. And her father was giving lame reasons last night to justify the divorce once again like "we were fighting for years" and "the psychologist said we should get divorced." Our fights were really normal ones that all couples have before this happened. I don't even know if he'll file for divorce, but the damage has already been done. I do hope our future gets brighter. We're surviving on our own but there's no safety net - I'll respond to your other message later.
All, today I told my husband I don't want him coming into our apartment anymore. I don't know if that's the right decision, but I don't see any reason to have him lounging on our sofa, using our dishes, having open access to our stuff, and coming-and-going. This really upset our daughter though and she was crying and didn't want to go with him when he came today and I took her down to go with him. He said "you're destroying her" in front of her and I don't want to hurt her any more than she's been hurt, but after the rude, manipulative, intimidating way he spoke last night I don't see why he should come in. We have common areas around our building or they can go to a nearby restaurant or shopping area. I just don't know....it's all so unfair.
He's trying to make you feel guilty. Don't let him. He's cake eating. He's the one who destroyed your family, not you. If he brings this up again, especially in front of your daughter, I would correct him immediately, but politely and firmly. Do not let that thought linger in your daughter's mind. Sit down separately, later, with your daughter, and explain very clearly that it's her daddy's choice not to live with you anymore, and the rules are that he's no longer allowed into your home.
M:23 T:26 Me:53, Wife: 60 S:18 D:16 filed 7/16 W moved out 4/28/17
Good for you Nicole, he has the guts to say that you are destroying your D after him practically abandoning her for a few years now? Do not let him inside your home, it’s your place of peace , of happiness and serenity. I feel my entire home is filled with negativity when WH comes here and I am still in the family home. When I get a new place of my home there is no way I am letting him in, I think this is also good for your D because she won’t see any arguments around her anymore. It’s your and your Ds place , what doesn’t serve your well being must be kept away from there
Nic - I'm sorry that reality has come crashing in again. What a terrible blow over the holidays. Hugs to you and your D.
Yes single parenting can be daunting. I remember those days and my S was an infant. I worked 40-50hr a week, I did every middle of the night feeding/waking up... it was just me... totally me. I was exhausted and sad for awhile but now nearly 17yr later I wouldn't change a thing!!! Yes it was disappointing that my son was a statistic now and I wouldn't have that desired nuclear unit that I dreamed about... but as we end the final years of his high school my kid is happy, I'm happy.
Its okay to be sad. Its okay to be disappointed.
But girl... while you don't have to be the first to file you go get yourself an atty on retainer... you go get those ducks lined up because if he is itching for a fight you will not be run over.
2019 is the year of Nic... what Nic needs for Nic!!!!
Girl, you ARE your own safety net! You don’t need a man for that, especially an irresponsible inconsistent selfish one. There is no safety in that, only danger!
I’ve told you, my walked out the door the night he dropped the bomb, and our baby was 6 months old. Scary stuff! I Was an ICU nurse, something I loved, but shift work wasn’t cutting it, so I took jobs that I hated or were wrong for me in my field to make it work for me and my daughter. I went through some heck but camenout atronger eachtime. I furthered my education, I furthered my career, I bought my own hour a few months ago. 11 years later my daughter and I are doing great!
My ex has been married to his OW for sometime . We all just went to the movies and dinner together. I help my daughter buy presents for her stepmother never in a million years did I see that coming! My life is full. I am dating a magnificent guy.
Was any of this fair to my daughter? No. It broke my heart at first this was her life but I think her life would have been much worse if me and her father were still together as he is.
You can’t make your ex someone he isn’t. I think he’s shown his true colors, and that wonderful man was putting on an act. Now he is showing who he really is.
You and your daughter will be ok. And good for you setting boundaries with him. BecUse him coming in and out of your home saying crazy stuff to your D will be what is detrimental to her.
Once you let go, you will look back and see this as almost a blessing. I can just about guarentee you that
Thanks all. I'll respond more soon, both to your latest messages and old ones. It's good to know it's the right thing although it doesn't feel like it for my innocent child.
First of all, you are doing the right thing. Secondly, it will FEEL awful because DBing is very counter-intuitive. But the fact is, your WH can still be part of your daughter's life without needing to be all up in your face all the time. As a matter of fact, it will likely be more healthy for your daughter to see a happy mother than to see you suffer. And trust me, she is seeing her mother in pain right now. Detachment isn't about apathy or numbness, it's about no longer being co-dependent on your WH's every mood or action. My coach told me to pretend my WH was in a coma on life support and meanwhile this twin brother of his was acting a'fool.
I was in agony a lot when WH was going through whatever he was going through. I was not a good detachment person. I kept clinging to the vision of how he used to be. I kept trying different ways to "win him back." Then I finally dropped the rope and filed for divorce. We went before a judge twice (WH got some verbal castigation about not doing his paperwork in a timely manner) and only when I helped my WH do a walk-through of potential houses he wanted to buy, did it hit him between the eyes. I was fully prepared to walk away if the AHA! moment never happened. I felt a lifetime of being single was preferable to living with this selfish jerk. Only when WH felt I was deadly serious did he open his eyes. If he never opened his eyes then I was prepared to let go.
Will your WH have this moment? Not sure, he's very deep in his wayward journey and being extremely selfish. I get the feeling that he will likely make more overtures towards you if he senses you're moving on and he might lose his old toy. You need to be comfortable telling him no if he just simply says the words. I would keep the boundaries in place that make you feel healthier, if that includes him not coming into your home then so be it. But at this point detach for your own health.
M 10yrs T 13yrs BD #1Oct 2015-PA between WAH and COW BD #2 April 2016-WH resumed PA, she broke it off Jan 2 2017 WH says he wants divorce April '17-Letting go 2018 D busted DD8, DS6, DS3
Thanks. I will respond more later but I just want to say that all makes sense and the overarching question I have is whether someone like that will ever decide that being a cheating, underachieving, low-life father can ever be redeemed in the future? In other words, he may just file for divorce or I may cut him off further so there's not really any hope in the short term to save the marriage but I feel if he continues on this path it'll really impact our daughter someday seeing her father running around like a playboy, getting fired from jobs, not being reliable, knowing that he abandoned her mom, etc.. Can a personality like that ever change? In your case I think your husband never wanted to move out or get divorced but he probably didn't know how to communicate until he realized he had no other chance. Your situation always seemed more hopeful although your husband did seem pretty lost for a while. Mine already has a whole separate life so if he was ever to feel the loss he would have already felt it, but I just wonder about the long-term.
Thanks. I will respond more later but I just want to say that all makes sense and the overarching question I have is whether someone like that will ever decide that being a cheating, underachieving, low-life father can ever be redeemed in the future? In other words, he may just file for divorce or I may cut him off further so there's not really any hope in the short term to save the marriage but I feel if he continues on this path it'll really impact our daughter someday seeing her father running around like a playboy, getting fired from jobs, not being reliable, knowing that he abandoned her mom, etc.. Can a personality like that ever change? In your case I think your husband never wanted to move out or get divorced but he probably didn't know how to communicate until he realized he had no other chance. Your situation always seemed more hopeful although your husband did seem pretty lost for a while. Mine already has a whole separate life so if he was ever to feel the loss he would have already felt it, but I just wonder about the long-term.
I think you're doing an amazing job keeping it together Nicole. It can't be easy, especially during the holidays. Hang in there and keep your chin up.
God always gives the hardest tasks to his strongest soldier's.
BH: 36 WW:33 M: 2 Relationship: 6 years. Dday: Aug 2018 0 1st mention of D: 30/09, 2nd Mention 17/02/2019 LRT: Oct 2018 WW & AP: EA & PA since June 2018 (Moved country and in with AP Feb 2019)
My WH was actually living an entirely separate life (living every other week in a different state and acting like a single guy) when the BD happened. I think it was a highly compartmentalized situation, he was able to soothe himself that he was a "good husband and father" when he was home every other week. It worsened when he started working 3 weeks a month in another state and he was only seeing us 7 days a month. The irony was when he came and lived here full time he still lived this bizarre double life but broke it into small compartments. There was the NG doctor at work all day and then the aloof, selfish husband when he returned home. The mental gymnastics was stunning. When he actually saw and felt me truly detaching then it clicked. But before that moment I kept doing things and checking his reaction. Only when I decided to give up and move on did he sense the fundamental change. I made sure to talk to loved ones and friends that I knew were strong enough to bare my pain with me. I stopped waiting on him to comfort me.
Will your husband ever return? I have no idea. I seriously think when you mentally move on and start to look elsewhere for your happiness he will grasp harder. Your instinct will be to accept him back with open arms but I say don't, wait 6 months and observe for real changes before lowering your guard. I personally believe everyone has the capability of real change but it requires serious motivation. I had absolutely no desire to change my self, my personality, until I realized I may be single parenting and had to be a better person. My WH's affair and MLC(?) was definitely a wake-up call for me. I came to the realization I was depending on him to shore up my weaknesses during our marriage. Only when I realized his presence was not a guarantee did I change a lot of negative behaviors and thinking. When my WH saw these changes it kind of held a mirror in front of his face and he realized what he was doing. This convoluted response it to say yes, I do believe your husband can find his way back but it depends on his strength and honesty to self.
M 10yrs T 13yrs BD #1Oct 2015-PA between WAH and COW BD #2 April 2016-WH resumed PA, she broke it off Jan 2 2017 WH says he wants divorce April '17-Letting go 2018 D busted DD8, DS6, DS3
Hey Nic just checking in.... We are thinking about you. The holidays can be a particularly rough time and busy too! I hope you and your D carved out some special moments with each other.
You can make 2019 a better year... you are a strong wonderful woman. Others see it!!! Now, we will work on you seeing that!
Hey Nicole! Hope you are doing well and the New Year is bringing fresh perspective. Come back and let us know how things are when you get a chance. Much love to you and your D!
Hi All, I'm terribly sorry that I haven't responded to your gracious messages. There's so much to say. I promise to write a full response as soon as possible. Everything is ok here, thanks. It's been crazy busy. I hope you're all doing well and got through the holidays as well. I will do my best to write, respond, and post on all of your threads this weekend.
Hey Nicole! Good to hear that everything is ok. I look forward to reading your update!
W 34 Me 42 Married 7 years together 8 0 kids 1 beloved dog BD 4/6/2018 I moved out 4/7/2018 I moved back in alone 8/05/2018 I file 3/06/2019 D official 5/7/2019
I owe so many responses from December 18th and 19th. I can't believe it's taken so long. Below I'll do my best to address all your kind and generous messages from those days:
Joe - It's good to hear divorce was a relief for you. I hope I find it to be the same assuming everything continues as it's been going.
Adam - I really want to visit your thread and post on it. I'll make it a priority! Thanks for your encouragement. Regarding long distance relationships - when I met my husband I was living in his country so it wasn't long distance at that time. The guy at the office actually lives in the UK and I live in the US. He moved from the UK back to his home country in Europe so we never worked in the same office, but I'll be visiting his home country in a few months so I'll see him then. I don't plan to date him or pursue a relationship but I just wish to enjoy having dinner with him one night because he's really great. It's true though. If I wanted to pursue a new relationship it should be a local one because I can't take such a big risk to move somewhere far away with my daughter, or sponsor someone to come here, because too much is at stake now.
Manta - thanks for your warm message!
Neffer - thanks for your encouragement!
Lonewlf - The holidays are really hard. I can't imagine how hard it was for you if your met your wife during Christmas. Did you hear from her at all over the holidays? I also hope for peace as well for you and everyone here.
Maika - Thanks for taking the time to write all that! Regarding reclaiming myself vs. saving the marriage. It's a balancing act. There are legitimate mistakes I've made and negative aspects to my personality that I've been trying to fix, and will continue to do so, and they serve somewhat of a dual purpose including becoming a better person in case the marriage can be saved and reclaiming myself as well. I find it hard to grasp the issue of 'reclaiming myself' because I don't really feel like I was a different person in the marriage vs. out. I've always been kind of the same in terms of beliefs, work ethic, personality, social life, etc.. I think I need to understand it better and try to differentiate. I'll give it more thought. I guess the part where I get stuck is that my views about marriage are strong and I have a deep conviction towards working through temporary hardships in order to achieve success in the long term. I therefore might have a harder time giving up on a marriage where I'm quite sure my husband will realize the mistake he's making at some point, but I've tried to let go and re-start my life while leaving the door open to fixing the marriage even when I feel at times it's too hard. About my religious beliefs - first I think that must have been really hard for you to leave your religious community! It's true that religious communities are formed based on a common belief and if you no longer buy into that belief then you may not be able to stay. Just out of curiosity, have you found a new religious belief? About mine - I grew up in a rather liberal denomination of Christianity but in a part of the US that is conservative and even radical in their life styles. I believe Jim is from the same place where I grew up so he might understand. As I became a teenager I became quite radical and conservative in my beliefs to the point where it was clear in my mind where my career would take me and what I wanted to do in life. I didn't date and I was focused on the mission I wanted to pursue. Members of my family tried to tell me to loosen up but at that time it didn't change much. In college I found Islam to challenge my faith because of its conservative nature, similarities to Christianity, and the lifestyle it entailed. I was intrigued and I began going to the mosque and talking with a lot of Muslims. My career then took me to the Middle East where I had an opportunity to really compare and contrast the two faiths. Ultimately in one country where I lived there was a spiritual leader that I began to follow and to this day I seek his teachings. He was nominated for a nobel peace prize and he's the person in this world I most admire (I never met him though). Around the time I began following him I met my husband who was also a follower....I can't say I ever 100% switched religions but I found Islam with all its rules for how to live, the way it connects to science and commands its followers to worship God alone, etc... to be an excellent fit for my conservative values and a path towards going deeper spiritually and finding greater contentment than the somewhat superficial practice of Christianity that I experienced in the US. So it's not that my religious views changed based on meeting my husband but more that he fit into my views. He was interested in Christianity and we found ourselves to be a unique fit for one another because we were both looking outside of our original faiths, wanted to learn more, and could offer one another a window into the other faith. Since that time I've been a blend of two faiths and I'd really like to be one or the other but I can't, with total conviction, choose. I've been participating in a different denomination of Islam more recently but I was also attending a church where I learned a lot. I think my anxiety comes from being in religious limbo just like being in marriage limbo! About my beliefs being tied to being part of a community - I don't think that's the case because I've wandered in-and-out of several communities and I'll probably end up wherever my beliefs align best and not based on any kind of need. I do, however, recommend to anyone the option of participating in a religious community when going through a hard time because it helps us to look beyond ourselves and our own feelings and connect with something greater and universal. I don't want to write another novel so I'll try to touch on your other points. I think my lack of confidence comes from having shifted my belief systems and view points at several junctures in my life and not having a strong enough conviction that I've figured everything out and know what I need to know. There is so much we'll never be able to know. I need to synthesize everything and form some conclusion but I've been trying to do this for such a long time that I think I've lost confidence in my ability to make decisions. There's also the confidence issue related to my husband leaving me for younger, more attractive women and the hurt that comes with the person you love leaving so easily for someone else after what seemed like a strong marriage. I don't feel as though a partnership is any kind of escape strategy in my case, or that my happiness is dependent on a partnership, but rather that I thought what I had with my husband was so unique and so tailored to the way I am and the way he is that we were a perfect match. Obviously we were not, but for a while it seemed like we were. I'm such a complicated person and I don't feel like I fit in with Western society. It's so easy to date and sleep with someone and have an affair and get divorced here. I guess my family values are very strong and strict, however I'll comment more on this at the end. About being co-dependent - honestly I don't know. I think we may have different views on what co-dependency is in this group. In the general sense I think we're designed to be co-dependent and that marriage is a form a co-dependency where we depend on someone else and they depend on us for many (but not all) of our needs. As I understand co-dependency in the clinical sense is a problem when someone is enabling someone else's drug addiction or when someone feels the need to help someone else who doesn't help them in return. At the end-of-the-day that's kind of what my husband did although for about seven years it felt like a healthy marriage and partnership where we had our own lives yet we were blended together in so many other ways. We helped one another a lot. This is all a new thing with my husband becoming a selfish jerk and leaving. He wasn't like that before. Anyway, I'll explore co-dependency further with the next counselor I see to determine if it seems to be an issue. For me I'm not so sure a partnership is a way of self-medicating, because I'd much prefer to be alone than with a partner that's not the right fit, but as mentioned above I thought my husband and I were the right fit and we complimented one another so well, not to mention how we endured a war together and supported one another's careers, had a child together, etc... For me this isn't something I can let go of easily or quickly but I've tried to rebuild my life and go back to being independent since that's really the only good option. In terms of filing for divorce and the LBS taking control and filing, that really is a very personal decision. If you feel comfortable doing it and feel the time is right then that's admirable. In my case I haven't felt that conviction yet, not because I think my husband will wake up tomorrow and want to fix everything he broke but because I just feel morally opposed to it being such an easy way out for so many people. I'll stop there because otherwise I'll just keep writing forever but I really appreciate your analysis and smart questions!
Davide - Thanks for your encouragement. Thankfully there was never any issue over the holidays. My husband stayed with his family. I agree with you about loving oneself and needing to feel that we're at peace with ourselves before we can share life with a partner. When I got married I felt that way, and I felt the marriage would open so many doors towards fulfilling our dreams and creating something bigger that we couldn't create on our own (particularly joint finances, kids, bringing together two cultures, more integrated belief systems, etc..). I broke off an eight year relationship prior to meeting my husband because I felt the guy didn't have the same goals and had too much self-love for himself. There's the danger of loving oneself too much and then the danger of not loving oneself enough! It's interesting to hear your wife is from another country. Perhaps when our spouses get their green cards or citizenship it empowers them and gives them the courage to do whatever they want to do regardless of whether they started out with the plan of leaving us or simply realized there's nothing to make them stay.
Blu - I'm glad we're on good terms! Someday I'll find the time to read the old messages. Yes I will look for the common themes and try to better see DB as part of the bigger picture and part of a process that we'll all go through regardless of what we call it since once we're divorced (by choice or not by choice) we'll have to re-invent ourselves one way or another. I think it's a good roadmap, especially early on right when one partner wants out. I may be a bit more jaded because I've been going through this for years now, including my husband returning and us struggling for another two years before he left again. It's like a long saga and I may be a bit lost in the process because I've seen so many counselors, read so many books, tried so many things, and had patience for so long. My time frame may be different than most but I've already gone through the process of renting my own place, separating all the finances, supporting myself financially, relying on my own support network, etc.. but truthfully I know someday my husband will wake up and come back and it's really a shame that it'll be too late by then, especially for our daughter.
Sia - I agree he needs to be a better father before he can be anything else. There's an innocent child who still loves him and believes he's amazing despite his despicable actions. It's good your husband feels at least a moral responsibility to be there for his kids. And it's true that no culture teaches you to treat your wife and kids bad. In my husband's home country divorce does happen but it's much less common than here.
Bo - thanks for your kind words! I'll keep striving to be a better role model for my daughter. I also like the concept of being queen of the house!
Ovrrnbw, thanks for your holiday wishes. I hope your holidays went well!
All, I will continue again as soon as possible. I will write to PsySara next and I'll share other updates as well. I'm several hours late going to bed already so I'll continue ASAP. Thanks again for all of your time and encouragement. I wish there was a way to meet you all in real life!
You are so conscientious in responding to everyone! It seems like such a reflection of your character.
Please do share an update about how things are going and how the holidays were. It is great to hear from you again!
W 34 Me 42 Married 7 years together 8 0 kids 1 beloved dog BD 4/6/2018 I moved out 4/7/2018 I moved back in alone 8/05/2018 I file 3/06/2019 D official 5/7/2019
Jim – That sounds good to correct him and explain to our daughter that he chose to leave. She still keeps telling me I should have been nicer to him (not just during his recent visit but in the past) so in her limited understanding she seems to think I did something wrong to cause him to leave. I hope she figures out on her own in the future what actually happened.
Sia – Yes I'll keep him outside of my apartment from now on.
KitCat – Good to hear you had a happy ending after everything you went through. I’m looking for lawyers. The one that was recommended to me by the lawyer that prepared my husband's immigration papers is $625 per hour so I've been checking ones with lower rates. I can't justify throwing away $625 for another consultation. The $350 I paid for the last one was pretty much worthless because she just confirmed what I already had calculated from my own research. Hopefully this week or next I'll find a less expensive one worth meeting.
Ginger – I can tell you know what it’s like to be your own safety net. There are a lot of women who have no idea what that would be like. Pretty much all of my friends are in stable marriages and many of them don't work. If their husbands left I don't know how they'd survive. I think they'd move back in with their parents. What happens when moving back with your parents isn't an option? You have to rely on yourself! I've lived this way most of my adult life. It's different though when you have a child. A lot of my anxiety comes from not knowing what would happen to our daughter if I become ill and I can't care for her myself. We don't have anyone else. I can take care of her and I when I'm healthy but if I'm not we have no back-up plan. I hope I can figure something out. It’s amazing what you’ve been through with your ex-husband and life. I’m not sure how you can go to the movies with your Ex-husband and his wife. I'm not sure I'll ever have any desire nor ability to socialize with my husband after we get divorced. What he did is just so bad that I don't feel we can just be friends after divorce although I've been ok with being friendly over the past year while waiting to see if he figures things out. I’m still not sure which version of my husband is the real version…perhaps he was an actor all those years and everything he did was fake. I just don't know anymore, but what I observed is he didn't have the coping skills to become a US physician and a father. He buckled under pressure after having grown up in a house where his parents took care of everything and all he needed to do was study. It seems he just didn't have it in him to rise to the occasion and he was too tempted by materialistic things to sacrifice himself for his family and career. There are still moments when I wonder if I was just so terrible and extreme and difficult to live with that he felt he had to leave, but I've apologized and worked hard to change myself and it makes no difference to him. Only God knows what lies in his heart.
Neffer – thanks again for pitching in and suggesting I’m doing the right thing.
PsySara – thanks again for your input. Your story appears to be a long one just as mine is, as in multiple years of going through this back-and-forth. It’s good when you reached your breaking point you felt sure about filing for divorce when you did it. It sounds, however, like your husband didn’t want to divorce considering he wasn’t being proactive about the paperwork. Mine on the other hand is long gone so your marriage probably had a much better chance of your husband turning himself around although I think someday further into the future mine will. That brings me back to the question I asked and your response – you explained the process you went through well and how your husband came to the point of changing himself. I may get divorced and meet another man someday and perhaps at that point my husband will feel some loss or remorse but I can’t really make those things happen in hopes that he’ll realize his mistake later. In my case I still prefer that if my husband wants to divorce that he do all the work and if I meet a new partner then it won’t really matter at that point if he's sorry. The big question I keep asking is whether he can ever be a good person again. Not necessarily come back but to realize that abandoning his family, ignoring his job and getting fired, dating younger women for easy access to sex, etc… isn’t the right thing to do. He grew up in a religious family with caring and educated parents so this is not normal for someone like him to go wild and become so selfish and careless. I wish he’d change so our daughter can be proud of her dad, and so he can be a well-functioning person in society and not just some immature playboy that’s unemployed and broke. I wish he could change so we could consider reconciling, although after his behavior during the holidays I don’t see any hope for that. Anyway I appreciate your input and I like to think there’s always a little glimmer of hope.
Davide, thanks for your message! After the holidays things thankfully went back to normal. My husband called me a few days after he left and he was complaining about his sore throat and how he couldn't handle it at work. I had no sympathy to offer. We haven't spoken since then. It's really hard to know if he made all those threats when he was here just because he was having a bad day and wanted to take it out on someone or if he really meant them but I'll just wait and see. I still don't have an interest in filing for a divorce I don't want so I still prefer him to file if that's what he wants.
During the first week of the new year I went through a lot of drama with some friends who were having problems and needed support. I also met a few friends and I was so grief-stricken from the difficult holiday experience that I ended up talking a lot and they spent a lot of time listening and providing feedback. Everyone with whom I've spoken still believes my husband will be back and that this is a phase he's going through. One guy who is a mutual friend says he plans to sit down with him later on, once he gets further along in his mid-life crisis or whatever it is, to talk sense into him. Friends from the Middle East say they've seen this situation multiple times and the husband always returns to his wife in the end. Other friends say that I caused this situation myself by being too nice and forgiving throughout this ordeal. I had a lot of thoughts over the past few weeks about my faults and how I need to change myself, but on the other hand I also saw many of my friends who are married with their own faults and how their husbands don't leave them. It's a lot to process.
After talking daily with my closest friend, who is a man, for days-on-end after the holiday ordeal he pretty much convinced and forced me to sign up for a dating app two weeks ago. His argument is that my husband is so far gone that I have to try to meet new people. He kept telling me there's nothing wrong with it, etc.. Somehow I ended up creating a simple profile saying I was interested in friends and single dads....it felt so unnatural. Those of you who followed my thread can probably imagine this isn't really my style. I looked at profiles and it pretty much confirmed what I already suspected about dating. I received many expressions of interest (not sure what they should be called) and among them one guy appeared to be respectable and in a similar situation. He has a daughter the same age, he's separated, and lost hope of reconciling. He's originally from overseas and he has a high profile career that I was able to verify in real life so after a few messages we agreed to meet this week. He said he's happy to meet as friends so we'll meet and I'd be happy to know someone in real life who is going through this experience. I can tell this guy is really benign but aside from him there wasn't even close to even a small chance that'd I'd communicate with anyone else so I don't plan to continue with the app. I think for me if I date after getting divorced it would only be if someone came along that is such a unique fit and so exceptional that there'd be potential for marriage. That isn't to judge any of you who are dating or not dating because it's again a personal decision. I trust that my friend who suggested I do this has my best interest in mind and I'm trying to be more open minded and willing to feel uncomfortable and challenge my own beliefs but it's hard. Maybe I'll reconsider if I find myself divorced. I don't know.
All I can say is that the holidays were just so difficult. As if all those weeks of festivities weren't enough they have to set Valentine's Day as the next holiday. I'm thankful to share everything with my daughter and to offer her all my love but these holidays bring back a lot of memories. I'm sure many of you can relate.
I hope to focus more on posting on all of your threads in the coming days. I look forward to reading more of everyone's updates.
Hi all, after posting the two back-to-back messages above I remembered something else. I never wrote about attending a Divorce Care class back in the fall. It was at a church. I went one time but I found it to be different than expected. There is a curriculum that appears to be quite outdated and videos that appear to have been filmed in the 90's. The attendees were mostly in their 50's or 60's. I'm 40 so it's not as though I'm young but I just didn't feel as though it was the right class for me. I wish there was something else similar that appeals to a broader range of people because attending a class to get through all these feelings of grief is a great way to meet other people going through the same thing and to lend mutual support. An online forum is great but a live group would be even better! I bet some of your cities have such a thing.
It sounds like your friend who pushed you to date had your best interests at heart. It is always good to push the limits of our comfort zone, that is when we experience the most growth. It is also good because we can learn where our true limits are. It may very well be that that type of dating is not for you. You need to follow your values.
That said, it is exciting to hear that you are meeting with a respectable guy who is going through a similar situation. Connecting with people is always the goal even if it doesn't become romantic. I hope it goes well! You deserve a quality guy in your life.
W 34 Me 42 Married 7 years together 8 0 kids 1 beloved dog BD 4/6/2018 I moved out 4/7/2018 I moved back in alone 8/05/2018 I file 3/06/2019 D official 5/7/2019
Consider meeting people via an app a 180 for you... something Nic would have never done before. Don't be afraid of something so out of the box... remember you don't have to actually go on a date with anyone you don't want to AND nothing wrong with establishing just meeting as friends. Nic when I did online dating most of the guys I met up with were not who I wanted to date BUT 1) I got my practice in so when I did find someone and I was ready I wasn't a squeaky wheel in interpersonal skills, and 2) I made some decent friends... people to hang out with when needed, grab a snack or a beer. I learned how to let myself have fun. I wasn't sleeping with any of these people... but it got me out of the house and taught me what I was looking for and not looking for in future prospects.
Just because one meeting wasn't a fit try something else. Remember even if you go you might bump into that one person who is also looking for support that may also not be a good fit for that group... you might develop a friendship that leads to a mini support group of the 2 of you. That happened to a friend of mine and years later though they have both moved on into new marriages... they are still friends.
It [censored] to have to keep putting yourself out there... I know. I was there. But, it really will help. New experiences, new things... things that cannot have any connection to the old Nic or your old M are what you need... NOT mutual friends. I will stress not to involve mutual friends in any way in your M problems. Its not a good thing. Re-read your DB book. That's why new friends and new experiences are a must.
You are incredibly gifted. And, you do an amazing job of journaling. You are working though more than you know. Hang in there.
Davide and KitKat, I'll try to keep an open mind although I think until I'm divorced and my circumstances are better I'll hold off on meeting anyone else. I ended the subscription to the dating app. I think a little glimpse was enough for me. I'll meet the one guy I met who agreed to be friends tomorrow night if the weather cooperates. I do appreciate your advice though and I'll keep it in mind for the future. I'll also try to consider this brief experience to be a 180 and I'll keep re-assessing things as I go along.
I do want to add one more update. I was checking the value of the house we own where my husband still lives and I came across public records that show his girlfriend's address is listed as our address. So she lives there with him in our house. I have a greater understanding now of what happened over the past year - he met her, wanted a divorce, then I moved away and he was too busy to file, then something happened with his girlfriend over the summer and he became nice and started acting normal again like he was getting close to reconciling. Then, sometime around August or early September, he changed again and all the threats about divorce a few weeks ago followed the same script from last year. So it seems he and his girlfriend broke up at some point, then reconciled and she moved in this fall (she wasn't living there yet when I left last year because I went to get my stuff and also our old neighbors reported what they saw).
Obviously it's terrible knowing that the house we built with so many hopes and dreams were destroyed by this woman who inserted herself into the life of a married man with a young child, but I think it may also build the case for infidelity. Our state where we were living doesn't recognize legal separations so with the lack of paperwork we're still married and I'm still an owner of the home. With documented evidence that his mistress moved in I think that might work in my favor. I already contacted a few law firms the past two weeks and I will see a new lawyer here in this state to see what they advise. The main problem is I have debt on my credit card from this ordeal and I lost all my savings so I can't afford $10,000 + right now without borrowing from friends which I really don't want to do. I also still don't want to file myself because I never wanted this divorce, but based on what would offer the best financial outcome, one that would offer our daughter the best chance at life (not struggling financially with her mom while her father is out smothering his girlfriend with a luxury life), I'll see what makes sense.
This ordeal has been going on for so long that I see how infidelity changes someone. When my husband meets a woman or he's in a new relationship he turns into an unrecognizable monster. But it seems as soon as those relationships end he's nice again. So I do expect unless I really was a horrible wife and his girlfriend is his perfect match that at some point their relationship will end and he'll be back again, but the longer this goes on the longer it would take to reconcile. With years of this behavior it would take years to reconcile, and I'm sure 99.9% of the population would never want to reconcile with such a person. I'll always be open to reconciling with someone who undergoes radical change and remorse that can be demonstrated over a long period of time but with our daughter at risk of being harmed by her father being so unstable I know the chances are low. I just wish I could find a way to avoid him getting any custody of her, or minimal custody, so she's not exposed to women like the one right now who willingly stole her father away from her. I can't imagine a worse thing for a child. A woman who cares nothing for the child's wellbeing, who takes the child's resources for herself, and who probably won't be in the picture in the long-term, suddenly becoming a mother figure in the child's life. There just has to be a law that prevents this, but it seems there's not.
If there's no choice except to go through with a divorce that I never wanted I only wish the law would be in the favor of my daughter and I to prevent this injustice from becoming worse than it already is.
I wanted to add for those who may not have been on the forum recently that I did respond to all of the old messages if you go back a few posts. I really appreciated everyone who posted in the last month and I want to make sure you know I responded to your input. Thanks again!
Nicole, a friend of mine told me "the judicial system is a great way to get money, but don't expect justice." I have found that to be true on multiple occasions. It doesn't seem "right", considering what you and D are going through, but the law says he has every right to do what he is doing, and all you have is the right to half the marital assets. Doesn't seem fair, does it?
SoTorn had an interesting reply on cell phones on my thread. I expect you'll read it eventually, but he basically says your D carries the same risks whether she carries a cell phone or not. I'm not trying to push you into a cell phone, but I wonder if her not having a cell phone might be so you can have an excuse to talk to WH when he calls D.
((hugs))
M:23 T:26 Me:53, Wife: 60 S:18 D:16 filed 7/16 W moved out 4/28/17
Your H is going to have these same problems with every woman he meets IMO. He has to look at himself to fix himself. And hopefully you have been and still are improving. Maybe your H will see that one day and decide to change, and maybe not.
I hope you get out and meet some people and have fun and enjoy life in the meantime and try your best to forget about this guy. I think you don't have to "date" per se, but that you should get out and flirt and have fun and just let the world remind you that you are attractive, important, and wanted. That will do so much for your mindset. I'd find a way to make that happen. Get a sitter, etc.
When you look back on all of this, you're going to wonder why you were so easy on your H and why you let him get to you all these times.
H 34 W 29 BD 3/12/18 Divorce Busted Spring 19
It is not things that bother us, but the stories we tell ourselves about things.
Appreciate the long post about your religious upbringing and your beliefs over time. I don't really have much to comment on that, but I do understand the difficulty in developing a strong conviction. I think you have to become comfortable with knowing that you may never have a complete black/white level of conviction. In my own case, I don't know if the path that I have chosen is the right one from a spiritual standpoint. However, I do know that my path is the one that is truly reflective of my values and how I see the world. I went back to the drawing board to square one and disassembled all the religious beliefs and values that I was 'supposed' to follow, and did a deep dive in understanding them and why they mattered or didn't matter to me. I questioned all of it and removed any emotional attachment, experiences, or how I was raised to create as much objectivity as I could. We can never be fully objective, but I wanted to remove as much bias as I could. And after all of that, I was able to hone down the values that mattered to me, and more importantly, why they mattered to me outside of any religious decree or interpretation of any holy text.
And then I came to the conclusion that my values mattered more to me to live a truthful and honest life, and I wouldn't try to compromise them so that I could be part of a religion. But the question that I used to work through all the noise was - why do I believe what I believe and why does this value matter to me? If the answer was - because it says so in the religion, even if there was some explanation for it - I would highly question it and see if it was how I truly felt about it. That was my process. I am not suggesting it is a correct process, but one that I could live with and the answers it provided. I am much happier now and I can use that as a gauge for my decision and process.
I am a lover of words and language and I really believe in crafting empowering and truthful ways to express myself. How other people use language can also be revealing as well. This is just my read of what you wrote, and I may be wrong, but I wanted to point it out to you.
You talked about how the OW 'inserted' herself into the life of a married man. I found that super intriguing. To me it suggests that you are giving your H a wider berth on his actions and that the 'fault' resides with this woman rather than your H. She didn't insert herself into anything that your H wasn't willing to get into. In fact, she wouldn't have inserted herself at all if your H hadn't decided to step out of the marriage. I just feel that at some mental and emotional level, you are letting H off the hook for his behaviour as you want him to come back and restore the marriage. For me, this aligns with what you said about your strong convictions towards marriage.
I point that all out because you're selling yourself short. There is plethora of evidence that points to his character, including what you just found out about the house, and yet, you would rather stick to your conviction than move on. I would really question that if I were you. Why would you want to stick to a garbage marriage with a terrible partner, vs. eating up the losses and charting a new life forward? What is it about the idea of 'marriage' that you can't let go of? Yes, people vowed to be there through thick and thin of life, but they broke the rules of the game and that $ucks and it's unfair and tragic, but why still desire that when the past M is completely over and done with?
If nothing, find conviction to be good to your present and future self, and forgive the past self.
Nicole, I have seen for almost a year now how full of kindness you are. You want to see the better side of your WH even when it is plain that he is being a colossal @ss. For the next few months, extend the same kindness to yourself. Make you priority. Find all the ways you can feel better and practice self love. If our S failed to pay us back with love and kindness, we should be capable of that ourselves and this is something we need to do forever in life with all Rs. Ask yourself what will it take to make yourself priority? What will it take to heal at a more steady pace?
Hi All, I hope to respond to all of your threads soon but here's a quick update from my end:
Jim, I know I often sound pitiful but I actually don't have any interest in talking with my husband or in hearing his voice, especially after the new turmoil he created over the holidays. I called him once since April and aside from that I talk if he asks specifically for me or if there's something important (like asking if he agrees that our daughter will travel overseas). For the cell phone thing it's not radiation but certain phones have a warning that says "chemicals known to the State of California to cause cancer or reproductive harm." I assume they have lead or flame retardants or whatever else is toxic. With radiation I already know that my child and many others are getting too much for our adult phones, iPads, etc... I think he should buy her an iPhone with her own line that he pays himself. I'll ask him at some point but I don't really feel like communicating with him at the moment.
Maika, it's intriguing to hear about your thought process on religion and how you've evolved! I wish to write more but I want to address your other point too. I'm completely guilty of feeling negative feelings towards the other woman. I've already known about my husband's character flaws, lies, cheating, etc.. for a time but after the confirmation that this other woman lives in our house I feel acute anger at her. She's a participant in this situation and she's an enabling factor for a man to leave his wife and child. I feel she's just as guilty as he is, and she is a bad human being for moving into someone else's house under these circumstances, using facilities that we designed as a family for our daughter, taking our resources, and the list goes on. I guess I already know how bad my husband is but if there were not an abundance of "other women" and "other men" out there tempting our spouses to leave, and rewarding them for leaving, making them feel they're living their fantasy lives, there'd likely be less of these divorces due to infidelity. I know it's wrong to comment on the other woman as she's only half of the equation, but it's difficult to not feel anger at her living in our dream house that we designed together after struggling for ten years to have the resources to build it. It's also a bold move for her to register it as her legal address when it's a home that I legally own. It's just hard. It's not fair.
Sia, thanks for sharing your thoughts and suggestions. You know I've done things like get my hair highlighted, order books that I want to read, go to bed early some nights to get enough sleep instead of doing other stuff, etc.. I'll try to do more of these things, but my time and budget are already stretched beyond their limits so I need to work on making structural changes such as creating the financial resources to get a nanny and cleaning lady. This probably can't happen until we reach a divorce settlement. For now I have a schedule where I work only six hours during the day and two hours at night so I can spend more time with my daughter but as a trade-off there's less time for myself. Still, together we have many social activities in the evenings that we enjoy together and we spend one-on-one time on the weekends. I'm trying to appreciate these fleeting days to be together before she gets older and more independent. Each day with her is a gift and I had planned to work only part-time for at least several more years. Now that dream is destroyed so I'm trying to appreciate the small amount of time we have. I know someday I'll have all the time in the world for just myself. I'm sure you know the feeling having to work full-time and share your kids with your husband how precious time with our children is. In your case it's great though that you have a little time for yourself, despite having never chosen these circumstances, but I imagine it's the first time in a long time that you're free to discover your own hobbies and care for yourself alone. It'd be great to hear your updates.
All, so I met the guy from the dating app last weekend. He changed the plan the day before and then we met and it was nice. We talked for a few hours. He was respectful but he was much happier about his divorce than I am so I didn't feel we connected well even as friends in that regard. He asked if we could meet for lunch this Friday and I said sure, but I didn't text him after we met. I don't want to date him and I don't want him to think I'm interested. He didn't text me either, so perhaps we'll never speak again which is ok! I don't have any other plans to meet anyone online or use any more dating apps. Maybe someday after divorce I'll try again but I'm not too optimistic based on what I saw.
Yesterday I saw a divorce attorney. I was really disappointed. Just like the other one I saw, this one said that my husband is already paying what he'd owe each month if we were divorced, we don't have any issues surrounding custody, and he can't sell our house without my permission, so she doesn't see any reason why I should file for divorce. She said she recommends just waiting which is what the other attorney said as well. I doubt I'll seek any other legal advice unless necessary after my husband files for divorce because now I've spent over $600 this past year on attorney fees only to be told what's available through online resources.
In general I've felt pretty negative about this situation although on the other hand I had some more recent medical tests that came back good, my career is going well, and I'm thankful for my daughter. I feel now like I understand what happened to my marriage. When my husband is in love with another woman he's totally gone but when it ends he's back. That doesn't mean I'll be able to take him back after the destruction he's caused, nor does it mean he's ever likely to return again now that he's lived this fantasy life and will probably want to re-create it even if it ends with the current woman, plus he may have only ever used me for immigration purposes, but it's somehow helpful to understand how and why someone can change so radically.
When you go on a first date, if a guy is telling you he is still bitter about his divorce, that's usually the turnoff. If he was expressing pure happiness at being divorced, I understand. But if he is accepting of what happened and is making his life the best it can be given the circumstances, that is great for him. That should be an absolute positive!
I am not happy about my divorce. But I project a positive attitude that I will make the best of my life because I accept what happened. Actually, I do see it as a blessing in disguise because my ex is not a good person and my daughter would have grown up seeing her mother mistreated. So, if he was never going to change, I am grateful for the blessing in disguise, but I am not happy I am divorced. I would have much rather him have grown up and learned to treat others better. But I had zero control over that. I am happy with my life now, but it doesn't mean I am happy I am divorced.
You say you figured it out "When my husband is in love with another woman He's totally gone" Do you see what is so wrong with this? Your husband should not be in love with another woman. He is making that choice. Of course he is gone when he is in love with another woman. You are not a place holder until the next love of his life comes along. You are his wife.
I greatly fear for you that when he falls out of love with this woman, he will come right back to the place you will hold for him and as soon as he falls in love with another woman, he will leave you high and dry again. Clearly that is his MO. I know your religious views on marriage, but what are the religious rules on adultery which he commits pure and simple? That is not religious grounds for ending a marriage? I am asking seriously. Does your religion allow for repeated adultery within the marriage?
As far as everything being status quo right now. Legally, there is no need for a divorce. You may need one if you want to morally move on with your life. I know a couple that lived as if they were divorced for years because they had the money and custody all worked out amongst themselves. Until he had a girlfriend that made him get divorced, they didn't.
If you need the divorce legally to move on emotionally, I imagine it would be a simple one. If you don't want a divorce but can live your full like without leave the door so wide and easily open, then don't get one.
But think of your reasons and what you hope to accomplish. I only wish the best for you. My heart goes out to you.
Thanks for your response! For once I get to respond quickly. The guy I met left his wife and said she had mental problems. As he described how she wanted to buy a house and have more kids but he ended it with her because she can't regulate her emotions I can't help but wonder about her side of the story. I can imagine my husband saying the same thing to his other woman. This guy says he offered her a chance to get treatment but the way he said he's feeling great about his divorce didn't seem right. He has a young child. He was still a respectable guy and I appreciate that he was fine with meeting as friends but there's probably no need to stay in touch.
Yes it's so wrong with a husband to fall in love with another woman. The part that didn't make sense over the past year was all the blame he cast upon me, changing our entire story saying he never loved me, then being really nice for a number of months and then going back to the angry guy again.....it fits well with what's written about affairs here and in other places. He's totally gone when things are going well with the other woman but he warms up when they're having problems. It's hard to understand this fully before it becomes a cycle. In the beginning I questioned all the things that I did wrong even though I know it's not my fault that he cheated. But this concept of a fantasy life shows up well in my case with my husband abandoning real life for fun and leisure with a woman he never would have respected before. All these years I was the 'best wife' and 'perfect woman' for being modest and for everything I did to support him. Now he's with a woman who, on facebook, has only pictures of her wearing a bikini on the beach holding a beer in her hand or sitting in a bar with her friends drinking shots. It's hard not to feel hurt knowing someone like that is living in my house enjoying everything I worked so hard for. Anyway I don't mean to keep repeating myself. I'm sure I'll better accept this latest bad news after it sinks in more.
I'm just curious, with your ex-husband, does he seem to be a great husband to the woman he's with now? Did he seem to have matured and grown over the years? Or do you still seem him acting the same way? I often wonder about the long term prospects of men like these, not because I have hope for my husband but because
I appreciate your fear about my husband coming back and me taking him back again. As I've written in the past that's no longer possible because we've been through this several times now. I may be hurt and broken but I'm still rational. I've learned a lot from the mistake of taking him back once before. I still love the version of him that I married but he'd have to go through long-term counseling and turn his life around before we could ever try again, but I think it'll be five to ten years before he'd reach that point. If he had come back last year totally remorseful and he had started counseling before I had already moved and started over I may have been more likely to give him a chance. I was still so shocked and broken at that time but now a lot of time has passed and I know we can't go through that again.
I still never wanted a divorce so I still don't want to file if two attorneys suggested I wait. I'd only *need* to file if I wanted to get re-married but I don't see any prospect of that in the near horizon. I do wish, however, that someday I could find a man who I'd love as much as my original husband and who wouldn't leave. It'd be nice to have that experience in life, to have a real partner and to experience real love, but not everyone gets to have that. I'm still thankful for my beautiful daughter and I wish more than anything I could have given her a life with two parents and a nice house but I'll do whatever I can to still giver her the best chance possible in life.
I'm just curious, with your ex-husband, does he seem to be a great husband to the woman he's with now? Did he seem to have matured and grown over the years? Or do you still seem him acting the same way? I often wonder about the long term prospects of men like these, not because I have hope for my husband but because
I still never wanted a divorce so I still don't want to file if two attorneys suggested I wait. I'd only *need* to file if I wanted to get re-married but I don't see any prospect of that in the near horizon. I do wish, however, that someday I could find a man who I'd love as much as my original husband and who wouldn't leave. It'd be nice to have that experience in life, to have a real partner and to experience real love, but not everyone gets to have that. I'm still thankful for my beautiful daughter and I wish more than anything I could have given her a life with two parents and a nice house but I'll do whatever I can to still giver her the best chance possible in life.
The reason why I say this was a blessing in disguise is because he has not changed an ounce. He will have been married to his OW for 8 years this April. He teats her like garbage too. I've seen it, I've heard it, and I have also heard it from my daughter. And the saddest is he at times treats our daughter the way he treated me. Does he cheat on his current wife? I have no idea. I just know they are most likely together because she is willing to put up with the poor way he treats her and because he does what he wants when he wants. He hasn't matured at all. He treats me a little better now that we aren't married. He knows I have no reason to tolerate his disrespect because I am not his wife anymore.
Not for religious reasons, but I have a strong belief in marriage. I believe that you keep working as long as both parties are willing. But I believe there are a few serious ways to violate your marriage vows, and not just by infidelity. I also believe you have to look at the picture and what the actual situation is and not what it could be. I would have wanted to leave my ex by now if we were still married. Not for my sake, but for my daughter's sake. I couldn't have her see me grow up treated like garbage. She would think that's the right way to be treated and be ok with a guy treating her that way. And he wasn't going to change. he did not change. And if something is harmful to my child, I will do all I can to minimize that harm. Sure, the best bet was my H becomes a decent H and father. But I had no control over that and it wasn't the situation. Weighing the risks and benefits given what the reality is, is the best bet. NOt how it should be, but how it actually is.
To speak to finding another love. My ex was my first everything. I thought that I would never be able to find anything that compared at the time. I have dated in my 11 years when he left, had two serious, but short term R's. I have been dating my current BF for 5 months now. He is nothing short of amazing and I really love him. When I think about how I do, it almost brings me to tears. I thought I could never find this. I find myself wishing so badly we met when we were younger so we could have children together (if it progressed, that is).
All great things are possible. Even when they seem like they aren't. And I am not a divorce advocate. But there are grounds for it. Think, even the catholic religion (which I have many qualms with) will grant an annulment when vows are seriously violated. I don't believe in always looking for the next best thing, but I believe in mitigating harm.
My ex wanted to really be a dad. He was the one who suggested I go off my BC when I did (although he has a rare form of infertility which we found out, and he had surgery on his nuts, and I did IVF). He loved having a newborn.... They don't talk back, they eat the sleep and they cuddle. Anything after that he didn't handle too well. He was 28 when he left for OW and OW is 4 years older. She wanted kids. He told my best friend at a birthday party once "We fight about it, but I can barely handle one kid part-time" She is now 42 or 43 and he is 39. Kids are out. He didn't want his lifestyle touched. He gets home from work at 6:30, either goes to volleyball Monday nights or sits in his recliner and plays his phone game addictively. He doesn't even want the one weeknight he has in addition to his every other weekend because it's "too much work" I make him keep it for our daughter's sake. He will never take an extra week night if our daughter wants it, he only does it rarely when I need it. He has no interest in being anything but a part time dad. He thought he wanted to be a dad, but he only wanted minimal responsibility. He needs ot be center of attention, and he can do that with one woman raising his child, and another being his wife and raising him, lol. He cannot have one woman be his wife and the mother of his child. Which it sounds like your H. And it is who my H is. And will never change.
Nicole, I'm sorry your first date didn't go so well that you're looking forward to seeing him again. You said he's happy about his divorce and that seemed to be a turn off for you.... Would you rather date someone who moped and went on and on about how much he missed his wife? Most people would not want to put effort into dating someone like that, and I can't imagine a more boring date than someone who droned on about it. I can relate, because I think I was one of them. I did enjoy the adult interactions, thought, and it got easier with time
I can absolutely understand your lack of desire to date, and if you're not really ready to pursue that, then don't. Maybe you will eventually, maybe you won't, and either one is ok. I do hope that if you stumble into a nice guy, though, that you don't reject the prospect out of hand.
One thing to think about... The woman I'm dating now was so hurt by her husband leaving she didn't date anyone who left the marriage, only those who were left. Maybe that's a guideline you could adopt.
As far as the lawyers go, I'm sorry you weren't more encouraged, but I'm glad he's paying everything you'd be entitled to. Eventually, one of you will get to the point that you really want a divorce, and will file the paperwork. If you're not fed up with the current arrangement, then you probably shouldn't bother. From the sounds of it, though, you sound very clear that the marriage is over, so I'm not sure why you would wait. (I can think of one good reason: In PA, alimony is paid for 1/3 the time you're married, so the longer you hold off filing, you will not only receive the check he gives you as support, but the current arrangement continues for say three years, he will have to continue giving you a support check for an additional year on top of that. Maybe it's similar in your state.)
I'm really really glad your medical problems seem mostly behind you. That must be such a weight off your shoulders.
M:23 T:26 Me:53, Wife: 60 S:18 D:16 filed 7/16 W moved out 4/28/17
As always, I'm in your corner rooting for you! Having read the last part of your thread it seems like you are getting some good advice here. With you going to see an L - it seems like you are taking the necessary steps to protect you and your D. I can also relate with you in the sense of anger you have for your H as he seems only self serving and worried about his own selfish desires. I hope that one day soon we can all share stories of happiness where there is some one in our lives that can reciprocate the love we have and shares similar hopes, dreams and values. Now is the time to stay focused on you and D. Enjoy that time because they grow - oh so fast! You are not alone- You have a lot of people here pulling for you. With sincere wishes of peace to you and D. (((Nic & D))) Blessings!!
M51 w50 T-20Yrs M-16Yrs S15- mad at W for not trying and giving up 1 Awesum dog BD 10/31/17 separate rooms 02/08/18 wife moved out 05/17/18
Hi Nic, Most of us are here because we never wanted a D, had a hard time accepting it and will probably never be happy that it happened. But some things just are, we cannot go back change the past, control the future or our WS behavior, all we can do is just accept that we still have so much left. You have a blessing in your D, a job you are good at, some financial support by your WH and most of all you have you. Its okay to fully let him go, I dont know if you are ready to date or not it is a very personal choice, what I was suggesting previously is just focusing on you. I was in a session recently where the teacher was suggesting making a 20 item list of what fuels our tanks and doing at least half those things everyday. it can be simple things like making a cup of coffee and sitting down to drink it without distractions. Slowly these things add up, it can be watching TV, reading a book or just dancing with your D. Small things that can only make Nicole tick without extreme expectations from it. I understand D is your full time responsibility but start making your list you never know how many simple things you can find. Once we make the list and realize we are doing the item on the list, it is basically sending signals to the brain that we are feeling happy. Hope that makes sense, hugs.
You are afraid you will not find anyone that you will love the way you first loved your WH. I believe that you absolutely will... so long as you take the steps to do so.
Nic. Mr Right isn't going to randomly ring you doorbell and announce his presence. You are going to have to do the work to find him... and this time around the work will be much harder because you have to find someone who is right for you AND your D.
You may have been too harsh on the man who seemed "happy" to be D. As Ginger pointed out no likes meeting a sour lemon. He is telling you is truth but the actual truth lies somewhere in the middle. You take what you hear and you see with your own eyes over time. I often stood up and took side with my H's EW until I saw with my own eyes and my own experiences with her that he wasn't off the mark. I know my H did some terrible things in his previous M but I also know they were the actions of someone unhappily M for years. He is grateful for his children but they should have never been M in the first place.
You keep stating that you won't date because you are not divorced and still M. You won't D unless your WH pushes it forward.... GIRL you are stuck. Your WH is moving on with his life AND you are stuck. Yeah, you moved, you hardly talk to him though you will if wants to talk to you... HOW MANY TIMES HAVE YOU TOLD THIS MAN NO? Not enough.
I've pointed out to you many times that this man has zero fear of losing you. Not an ounce shows that you are moving past him... you've moved away to tolerate what he gives you better.
As Ginger stated she would have been divorced by now.
I want you to take some time and think - if you move to divorce you might just shake his world. Yeah he might not have to pay you any more in support but he will have to either buy out your part of the house and if he can't be forced to sell it. So you can take solace that he isn't getting to enjoy those fruits of your labor together. OR - you can silently laugh that this OW is living in a home that was never intended for her... (rather than being bitter that she is living your life.) I will tell you if it wasn't this OW it would be another.
Hon - you are an amazing person and mother but don;'t let this man's treatment of you define who you are. You need to move on. You just said it would take at least 5-10yr for your WH to get his act together so you could be together. Are you going to sit on a shelf during that time until he calls you up again... if ever? As Ginger also pointed out you are modeling behavior for your D. You are teaching your D that this is how men treat wives. Take a step back and write your D a letter. Let's pretend its your D's heart being ripped out... what advice would Nic give to D?
I totally believe in M and want to avoid D if at all possible but again as Ginger pointed out ---- M's only work when both parties are invested. I think your H knows you won't file and will happily sit and ignore how he behaves indefinitely He has probably told OW he can't M right away because he would lose the house. So here everyone sits until perhaps OW gets pregnant....
Nic you have come really far from a really dark place. You are strong but you need to see how beautiful and wonderful you are ---- you have a dear little one looking up at you!!! Just as Ginger said - she has an amazing boyfriend but she had to do the work and it meant dating others to find that perfect match. Don't be afraid... I had the best time dating... little a string of many first dates... they were each fun in their own way and believe it or not its how I found my groove back. I had the "pity" date where the guy whined and complained about his D and EW... clearly not ready to date!... to the guy who stood up and showed me how great his A** looked in these jeans he just bought... OMG. I'm still FB friends with 2 of them!!! I always walked away from a date with a great story to share... something funny, comical.
I also have an amazing first date story with my H. I left that date not planning a second one either... but he managed to pin me down for a second date and thats the date he 100% stole my heart.
Now Nic I never slept with these men... I never even kissed these men. I was out discovering the world learning who I was.... AND, Nic, that's what I think you need to do. You need to discover Nic. Nic the wonder woman, Nic the single mom, Nic who likes X and didn't even know... If you can do those things and don't use the line - I'm not divorced yet then you fine.... but if not maybe you should be... I'm not intentionally trying to be harsh but I think you use "I'm not divorced yet" as a crutch for living your life outside your WH.
Keep pushing the limits of your comfort zone. If you aren't uncomfortable then you aren't growing. You are clearly a wonderfully successful and intelligent person - that will attract many people into your life if you let them in.
I wanted to comment on this part of your message particularly:
Quote
The guy I met left his wife and said she had mental problems. As he described how she wanted to buy a house and have more kids but he ended it with her because she can't regulate her emotions I can't help but wonder about her side of the story. I can imagine my husband saying the same thing to his other woman. This guy says he offered her a chance to get treatment but the way he said he's feeling great about his divorce didn't seem right. He has a young child. He was still a respectable guy and I appreciate that he was fine with meeting as friends but there's probably no need to stay in touch.
I wouldn't be too quick to judge that. Pouring your energy, affection and love into a person who can't regulate their emotions is a waste of those precious resources. I think that is a major reason that my W left me, as I sucked the energy out of her, thinking that it was her job to fill my emotional needs and holes. I know that in looking at future relationships that is a complete deal-breaker for me. Emotional maturity and regulation is a sine qua non of a successful relationship in my opinion. You certainly got a better read on the guy than any of us did, but I would hesitate to judge him too harshly based on what you said above.
W 34 Me 42 Married 7 years together 8 0 kids 1 beloved dog BD 4/6/2018 I moved out 4/7/2018 I moved back in alone 8/05/2018 I file 3/06/2019 D official 5/7/2019
I hope you're all doing as well as possible given your circumstances. I've been swamped with work and activities these past few weeks. Several times I've sat down to post here but I'm either two tired or I get interrupted. I'll write more later but I want to offer a quick response to those of you where so kind to respond.
Ginger - too bad to hear your ex-husband hasn't changed. It's hard to imagine how someone can feel it's sufficient to be a part-time dad. It's helpful to hear this since you went through a divorce far enough back that you're able to reflect and also report back on how things progressed over the years. Your thought process about wanting to leave by now for your daughter's sake, if it hadn't happened earlier, makes sense. It's also encouraging to hear you found love again! That's amazing!
Lonewlf - your message of hope is a good one. I hope the same! I know we all have to think positive. This is an uphill battle for me but I'm trying. I hope you're doing well! I think I read recently that your wife is inching closer to divorce. Too bad there's been no miracle turnaround but you never know.
Sia - thanks for clarifying. I'll try to do more of what you suggest. I do some of those things such as making tea when I sit down to work at night and there are books that I'm trying to read. I know someday it'll get easier to do those things. I still have to figure out what the custody arrangement will look like (if anything) and what kind of nanny I can afford once we switch from private preschool to public kindergarten in the summer. Currently everything is in crisis mode without enough time or money to have a balanced life but I look forward to figuring out a better path. I hope you're doing well by the way. I want to re-read and respond to your latest post!
KitKat - I love your no-nonsense and clear suggestions. You have a great writing style! It'd be fun to meet you in person. :-) I think the days of being stuck will soon end because 1) my husband will soon file for divorce. I'm sure he will since he's living with his girlfriend and surely there's pressure from her and 2) despite my grief I'm working on a plan to start spending about 1/3 of each year in Northern Europe which will create new opportunities and a chance to spend more time with friends who are like family. I still don't want to file though. It's just not something I want to do. It has helped quite a bit to find out that this other woman is living in our home however. It clarified a lot of things. In any case, we're all multi-faceted beings and we offer little glimpses of our lives here that may not tell the whole story or paint the full picture. I'm not sure if I see myself out dating lots of guys but in certain cases if someone really has potential I'll try it. I'll write more about this in a minute but I have to start with the very basics because I've never freely dated in my life and it's not something I have any interest in doing. I'll try to learn how it all works though. Regarding the guy who seems happy to get divorced - if he followed-up and wanted to meet again I'd consider it and I won't hold his views against him. I can imagine if he's been supressed by his wife all these years he's happy to be free to breath and live again. The thing is just that we just didn't find a point of connection from an emotional perspective. I didn't reach out to him again and he didn't reach out to me. I think I'd have more in common with the type of guy who posts here in this forum than with someone who is feeling great about leaving his wife even though maybe in a year or two I'll be in a different place. We'll see.
Davide - I'll try to keep pushing the limits! I'm not sure how much more dating I want to do right now but there is a situation that's evolved that relates to this topic. I'll write about it in a minute. I can also see how emotional maturity is a big factor and should be part of a healthy relationship. It's more realistic to think that some marriages are better off ending due to issues like these even though it's hard when you see marriage as a lifelong commitment under all circumstances.
I'll try to share a few quick updates and then I hope to post more later.
Regarding my marriage situation, my husband says he's moving to our area in March but I haven't asked any questions. We haven't spoken now since the holidays aside from a few basic texts like him asking about the tax forms and me asking if he's good with us going to Europe earlier-than-planned (since he has to write a letter of permission for our daughter to leave the country). I didn't let him into our apartment again the last time he came. I struggle with thoughts of this other woman in our house but I've been busy so that helps.
Recently I've talked a lot with friends in Europe. I decided to go as soon as possible, in April or May, to work on a business venture I started with one group and to check about real estate options. If the divorce turns out well I should be in a position to invest in a small property and spend part of the year (summers, holidays, long weekends, etc..) in Europe. My employer has been supportive of this plan since most of our clients are in Europe and it shouldn't be too hard to bring my daughter. Planning for this partial move has lifted my spirits somewhat. I had been living overseas before marriage and I only came back to the US because my husband had to get a green card and citizenship. Then we planned our life here due to his career and mine being so flexible. If I don't have to stay here I'd rather leave but with a young daughter it's not that easy so I'll see if we can go back-and-forth.
About dating, I guess we all have a certain type of person we imagine meeting and falling in love with. For me I don't expect to find the type of guy I'd like to meet here in the US. It could always happen, but to me this feels like a remote possibility. At the moment I'd really like to focus on the big picture and where I want to be in the long-term. My career is going well and I think my daughter would benefit from traveling and having a lot of international experiences as she grows so I'm hoping my plan works out and maybe I'll meet someone along the way. There is a specific dating-related situation I'm currently though that I'll try to write about tonight. I'm just so clueless. I'll post a little on Ballast's thread but communicating with someone online is just a total mystery.
I think you are just too soft on your husband and he doesn't to appreciate that, rather he exploits it. He's moving to your town in March? What are you supposed to say about that? I'd look at him and say, "OK, I don't see how that affects me". Are you tired of his crap? Doesn't it seem like literally anyone could make a better partner than this?
I'm glad you're feeling better about having an opportunity to go spend more time in Europe. And if you have "your" friends there then it's all the better.
Originally Posted by NicoleR
For me I don't expect to find the type of guy I'd like to meet here in the US.
This means you and I don't have a future? Is that what you're telling me?!?! So sad....haha
H 34 W 29 BD 3/12/18 Divorce Busted Spring 19
It is not things that bother us, but the stories we tell ourselves about things.
Hi Ovrrnbw, I don't really communicate with my husband nowadays but in the past I was definitely too soft. It's my fault. The hard part is when someone you love just snaps and changes and you don't even realize that your old approach no longer works. It's also hard to accept that someone you love and trust is exploits your kindness. I've done a lot of things wrong but I've also concluded that whether I'd used DB methods, no methods, pursuit, or any other method it probably wouldn't have made a huge difference. If someone is having an affair and they're in love with someone else there's not much you can do.
I think you missed the line where I said I have more in common with the type of guys that come to this forum! Ha ha. I don't know why but I haven't met any American guys in person that seem compatible but there's always a possibility! I think since I see my future elsewhere I have to stop thinking that someone here would limit the possibility of going back overseas again...maybe there are guys here who'd be open to that. Who knows. In your case Ovrrnbw if you ever find yourself single I'd say you'll do great because you've shown everyone here in this forum how thoughtful, rational, humorous, supportive, wise, and open minded you are which are all traits that women love.
I'll be the first to admit I'm not good at romance and dating issues at all. Therefore I'd appreciate a few words of advice kind of like Ballast. There's a guy from Europe that I met on a different site back in August or September. His long-time partner left him and his situation is much like ours here. We traded contact info and we were texting for a few months but just about the kind of stuff we discuss here on this forum....dealing with the exes, trying to move on, kids, single parenting, etc... Then one day he just didn't respond. Oh well. That was months ago. A few weeks ago when I found out about the other women living in our home I was really upset so I texted this guy and told him. He responded immediately and then over the course of the week we started talking about our updates and we traded a lot of photos. He's really handsome! Then he sent me a video of him teaching his kid English. Anyway, it seemed like we re-connected on a deeper, more personal level and I just barely started to think "maybe we should meet in person" when I complimented him on how he's handsome and a great dad and he just disappeared again. This whole world of communicating via text just makes no sense. There are a lot of times when I'm late responding to someone or forget to respond to certain things and vice versa so I guess this is normal in all contexts but this guy was showing interest in me and said I was beautiful, smart, etc.. and then he's just gone. I don't think I'll waste time texting anyone I don't know in person in the future.
When I tried the dating app a few weeks ago I made plans to meet up with the guy who was happy to get divorced right away. I'm glad I did because there would have been no use texting him. But sometimes you don't want to limit yourself to whoever is in your immediate vicinity and there might be a long distance so then what? I don't feel very hopeful about dating and I already wasn't enthusiastic. These are the days when you just miss being married and having a partner because it's just so overwhelming to think about ever meeting anyone again and yet it's overwhelming to think about just being alone as well.
I totally hear you Nicole. But you are young... you’ve got lots of time to figure out what you want. Keep making your plans for you and your D. I think, when the time is right, you will meet someone to compliment your life who appreciates all of the great things that make you AWOAFWL. You have a great future ahead of you. Don’t doubt it for a second!!! (((HUGS)))
Nicole, do you live in the US and he lives in Europe?
Ok, here are my varying views on this situation. We know very well, that is a very long distance to have a real relationship. Usually, those kinds of arrangements are for comfort. You text eachother back and forth talk about marriages, frustrations, ect. You guys are like therapy to eachother. How long can that last on that basis? Probably not too long. But it serves a purpose for the time being. But when you are communicating such a long distance, across continents, what is the R really based on? It's nice to be able to talk to someone, usually these kinds of relationships can't become anything, however, it's "safe" in many ways, because you know that, while still getting ot communicate with someone.
Now, I trust no one I meet online from another country. There was an attempt to catfish me. I saw right through it, luckily, and I played along for fun. He pretended to be from here, actually stole the pictures and name of some random guy online. Stole pictures with his kids from FB and sent them from me saying "look, we are out bowling" when I did my detective work, those were stolen. Then he went in for the kill asking for iTunes gift cards to he complete his work assignment in Brazil! His English would get worse and worse, and I knew I was getting scammed.
Unless you can meet these people, I wouldn't get too emotionally invested with someone online from another country.I hope you find someone who really piques your interest in person. It will happen.
how "in love" can someone be while they're married to someone else? You think the wife of the WH is far from the OW's mind? I doubt it. Even a fool would be worried.
As far as what you can do, there's plenty. I'd read some of the old threads R2C has linked, I find some of the "old techniques" here quite interesting, though many of the posters are long gone. And sometimes I wonder, what do you/I/we really have to lose? Isn't subtracting a negative a positive?
Originally Posted by NicoleR
I think you missed the line where I said I have more in common with the type of guys that come to this forum!
I'm just a typical American, what can I say?
And yes, you never know what someone may think about going back overseas with you! You know what they say about assumptions, right? I've found that girls that "aren't good" at romance/dating are better partners b/c they don't know or need to play all the games. That is a huge positive for you. If I get divorced, I would refuse to do online dating, b/c I too would be horrible at the games and lingo and texting and ghosting. I don't know the games and I don't want to know them. I'll say hello to the girls at the store or at a bar. Good girls go out to bars too. If you do get involved with someone from a dating site, I'd not talk so much about your WH. I can totally commiserate with you on the "good ole days" of a happy life and marriage, but as we see now, those days were just an illusion.
Nicole, be strong. You have a lot to offer the world.
H 34 W 29 BD 3/12/18 Divorce Busted Spring 19
It is not things that bother us, but the stories we tell ourselves about things.
Therefore I'd appreciate a few words of advice kind of like Ballast.
Well first, I agree with Ginger that there's no point in communicating with people in other countries for dating. I had a woman contact me through a dating site, she claimed to be in Australia but her broken English was a red flag. I was pretty sure it was a scam but played along because I was curious to see what the angle was. After exchanging maybe 5 brief messages she told me she loved me and wanted to move to the US to be with me, LOL! Honestly I literally laughed out loud when I read it. My replies to her were just short of rude yet she had fallen in love. A couple of messages later she was talking about needing a plane ticket of course. I quit replying after that. I image searched her pics and they were on many other dating sites as well as a site where she was offering her services as a surrogate mother! Anyway there are a million different scams out there as well as a lot of people just looking for a pen pal. So stick to people that are relatively close.
Also when I started dating, the women I met shared all kinds of stories about their dating experiences. Let me tell you, women have it tougher than men in this regard, because whereas most of the women I met had used accurate photos and descriptions of themselves, it rarely happens with men. Most men use pics that are not them at all, or pics that are 20 years old. They routinely lie about their marital status, how much they make, and what they are looking for (JUST SEX). I heard stories that were... well just icky. Very icky.
So my advice is push to meet them to confirm they are who they say they are, and to see if any chemistry is there. Be VERY careful. Meet them in a public place such as a restaurant. Have a friend that you keep touch with throughout. Text her during the meet and let him know you're texting a friend for security purposes. If he's normal he will completely understand and respect that. If he's not you'll probably get a strange reaction from him and that's your queue to leave.
Also, same advice I gave B, do not engage in endless texting before meeting. When you do that you start to develop an idea in your head of how they talk, look, sound, act. And it's NEVER right, LOL! Meet first and if you like them, THEN start sharing a bunch of stuff by text if you want.
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When I tried the dating app a few weeks ago I made plans to meet up with the guy who was happy to get divorced right away. I'm glad I did because there would have been no use texting him.
Exactly.
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But sometimes you don't want to limit yourself to whoever is in your immediate vicinity and there might be a long distance so then what?
Well I understand that, but I still firmly believe you need to meet them before "falling in love" via text or email. Meet first, THEN engage in a long-distance R.
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These are the days when you just miss being married and having a partner because it's just so overwhelming to think about ever meeting anyone again and yet it's overwhelming to think about just being alone as well.
Being alone can be nice too. And usually about the time you get comfortable with the idea of being alone is when someone pops into your life.
Dejavu, thanks for your encouragement! I want to believe all that although I'm not so convinced about the young part. :-)
Ginger, yes, I live in the US and he lives in Europe. Not just any place in Europe though. I don't want to be too specific on a public site but he lives in the city and country where I've been going for several decades and where I plan to spend more time in the future. So, it was a bit strategic when he and I connected since I already know the culture and language. I would categorize our communications as friendly just like here on this forum until we re-connected a few weeks ago and started trading pictures. I think I'll still contact him to meet up. If he still doesn't respond then it's no big loss. That's funny about the catfish attempt you experienced! Having worked with people from developing countries for most of my career I know how these things happen. The people who do these things have no patience, have no shame in asking for stuff even though in their own cultures they'd never do that, and they are quite professional because they probably all train each other on their techniques. It's good you didn't fall for it! I fell for the worst scam of all - my husband. We met in person the old fashioned way overseas and we've been married for 10 years but it may have been one long elaborate scam especially since the timing of his departure coincided with him finishing his residency and starting as a paid physician and his whole family safely settled here.
Ovrrnbw, I know nothing of what my husband told the other woman but it must have been convincing since they live together. I'm sure she feels pretty good knowing she's 14 years younger than me. I'll look for R2C's thread. There's also no such thing as a typical American! :-) It's good to know there's a guy out there such as yourself who's not into the games and lingo. I'm not even sure if online dating existed back when I was last single and it was disappointing to see what's out there when I checked. You're definitely better off meeting women in person if you have the confidence to approach them.
AnotherStander, great advice!!! I love the story about the 'Australian' woman. She's a multi-scammer looking for husbands and surrogate deals at once. Too bad people in this world are so desperate. It's a good story for you to tell! I believe what women told you about their online dating experiences. That's kind of why I took a look and realized I could rule out 99% of profiles almost immediately. I met the one guy that looked decent and I don't regret trying it. I was able to verify his place of employment, his real name, etc.. prior to meeting. If I ever try again I'll be really careful. It's also good advice about meeting someone first even if it's long distance. That makes sense to me. The guy I describe above who lives overseas wasn't meant to be a dating prospect but the texting kind of evolved in that direction. I'm not looking for a relationship given my current situation but I want to learn how this world of online dating and texting works since I wish to meet someone someday. I'll just keep being alone for now. I'd rather be alone than with the wrong person but being with the RIGHT person beats being alone!
I want to learn how this world of online dating and texting works since I wish to meet someone someday.
Nicole,
It's not just swipe left or right anymore? Hm... coulda sworn my W was doing that before... Nvm, bad attempt at a joke.
I was told by a millennial at work the game has changed so much. She dates often by guys hitting her up in DMs on her Instagram(on one of her ig accounts, she has multiple ones, go figure...). I think from what she expressed, sending certain types of pix is so normal now. She said she could school me on SM and I quickly and politely declined. No thanks to all that for me. My eye sight's getting bad and I'm hard of hearing so I cant see you on face time or skype and I cant hear you on the phone, I'd need the person sitting right in front of me... in broad daylight.
My sister in law is getting married to a guy she met online. They both are in mid 40s with two kids each; both doing well. They met through a matchmaking site. There are a couple of people who met face to face like that and have hit it off pretty well with multiple dates with the same people. My sister in law probably dated a few years though before finding this guy.
I don't see myself ever dating again. For me after 25 years of being with someone, I just don't know and am okay with leaving it like that for a while...
H 49 , W 47 T 23, M 17 S11, S5 BD: 7/18 IHS: 7/18 - 3/19 Physically Separated: 3/19-4/19 Piecing: 4/19 - Current
I met the one guy that looked decent and I don't regret trying it. I was able to verify his place of employment, his real name, etc.. prior to meeting.
Oh good, sounds like you are being very careful then!
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I'm not looking for a relationship given my current situation but I want to learn how this world of online dating and texting works since I wish to meet someone someday.
Well it can be very frustrating, aggravating and time-consuming but if you go into it knowing that then your chances of success are much better. I think a lot of people are under the mistaken impression that you just cruise through the photos and descriptions, pick out the person you want and ride off into the sunset with them. If only! I did meet my GF through an online dating site and I'm glad I did but it took a lot of effort. I used to tell people it was like having a second job, LOL!
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I'll just keep being alone for now. I'd rather be alone than with the wrong person but being with the RIGHT person beats being alone!
Great attitude. And there's nothing wrong with being alone!
Hi Adam, interesting read out from a millennial. That doesn't sound tempting to me either! But that's great it worked for your sister-in-law. I guess there are so many variables but it seems the main point is not to get caught up in time-wasting games. In your case it does sound hard to think about someone new after 25 years of being with someone else. You never know what will happen in the future but there's no rush. You have your kids and they'll keep you busy!
AnotherStander, if something seems too good to be true it usually is! I can imagine with online dating you have to navigate through so many unknowns and endless choices, not to mention rejection and rejecting, to find something real. That's great you have a girlfriend yourself! It's encouraging to hear how many of you already-divorced members here were able to find love again. That makes an unwanted divorce feel just a little less depressing.
Thanks Adam. That's good advice because I don't put much value on fun but it's a nice thought. After all this pain and misery it's nice to remember what it's like to have fun!
There's a quick update on the guy I wrote about - he texted me from a ski resort in France at 2:00 AM his time tonight. He'd had a few drinks but we talked for a long time. We're going to meet in person in April. We'll see how it goes.
How exciting and mysterious. A ski resort in France!! Ha that sounds like a cool place. I hope it goes well, but don't put all your eggs in one basket!
H 34 W 29 BD 3/12/18 Divorce Busted Spring 19
It is not things that bother us, but the stories we tell ourselves about things.
Thanks DejaVu. For me traveling is fun more than anything.
Ovrrnbw, I don't really wish to have a 'basket' right now but I know what you mean. I'm not looking for a relationship. I need to go through the divorce process and improve myself. But I know if I want a new partner someday I have to be more open minded and learn how to communicate with men in a dating context. It's really a mystery to me. I chatted with this European guy about our partners leaving for several months last year just like we talk here on this forum. I didn't really think anything of it. But it's confusing because after we got back in touch and traded photos the texts got more personal. Then I didn't hear from him again for a while. Then I did. On Saturday he said twice how he has no problem just being friends and we should meet "just like friends." But then he said I'm beautiful and he wants to do a video call and he kept sending me pictures of himself. So what does that mean? I can't imagine going through this with multiple guys over the years. With my husband and the eight year relationship I had before that it was just easy. They were interested. I was interested. There were no games or lapses in communication or uncertainties. I realize it gets more complicated when people have been hurt and have kids and are trying to re-build their lives like many of us. I have mixed feelings about navigating this new universe. This European guy is nice though so I'll give him the benefit of the doubt for now.
In other news, my husband wants to come to our daughter's birthday party. Last year he came and acted miserable the whole time. I feel like she would like him to be there but I don't feel like seeing or dealing with him. I have to give it some thought.
the online dating thing I have seen a lot of with my friends. People seem to find it easy to be horrible to each other on there. If I was going to do it, I'd be simple and straightforward. For you, why not just say good woman looking for an honest, straightforward man with high moral standards. You don't have to play the sexting games and endless text messages. You can decide how to do the dating thing. Thinning the herd isn't a bad thing here IMO.
Your H wanting to come is strange. It's good that he wants to be a part of her life, even if it's just for a day. I guess let him come but no expectations, right?
H 34 W 29 BD 3/12/18 Divorce Busted Spring 19
It is not things that bother us, but the stories we tell ourselves about things.
Of all places, where I found W, which I know is ironic given my sitch.
What helped me was a specific website to help filter out women who weren’t likely to be my type anyway. (I used Catholic Match, which is where I met her—also ironic, I’m sure.) I went to a site like that where it was more likely I’d find good, honest, straight-forward women with good moral standards. It’s up to you, though, for whatever you do next.
Nicole. I met my H OLD. Funny... he said the same thing to me... that we would meet as friends. Yeah...that lasted about five minutes after we met face to face. I think it is something that people say to take the pressure off a bit. Also...he is in the same boat as you with his partner leaving (he says she did anyway...be prepared that he could be lying about that - people lie a lot - minimize and exaggerate). Anyway, assuming he is in the same boat as you, he may be interested in you but not sure that he is ready to be involved with anyone so he is likely giving himself an out just in case. Anyway... be cautious... meet in a public place, let someone know where you are, etc... you can never be too careful.
I'm glad to hear you are at least considering the possibility of putting yourself out there more. Keep pushing the boundaries of your comfort zone and you will find yourself growing in unexpected ways!
In terms of OLD the man that you are describing sounds very interested in you. I have never sent a picture of myself or done a video chat with anyone, and I have been on dozens of dates in the last three months. The lack of contact for a while can be a number of things as others have said. It could be that he was/is seeing other people and wanted to see where that was going. It could also be that life gets in the way especially for those of us who are older and have more established careers or family obligations. Personally, getting off the computer and meeting IRL as soon as possible is the key to not wasting time. Five minutes with a person can tell you more than weeks of messaging, and can save you a lot of time and energy.
W 34 Me 42 Married 7 years together 8 0 kids 1 beloved dog BD 4/6/2018 I moved out 4/7/2018 I moved back in alone 8/05/2018 I file 3/06/2019 D official 5/7/2019
On Saturday he said twice how he has no problem just being friends and we should meet "just like friends." But then he said I'm beautiful and he wants to do a video call and he kept sending me pictures of himself. So what does that mean?
It means it's time to block him, LOL! Sounds like he doesn't know what he wants, and you sure don't need another inconsistent wishy-washy man in your life!
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In other news, my husband wants to come to our daughter's birthday party. Last year he came and acted miserable the whole time. I feel like she would like him to be there but I don't feel like seeing or dealing with him. I have to give it some thought.
Personally my thoughts are to do it for her. My ex and I continued to have joint bday celebrations for the kids and still do. But if you think it's too much to handle right now, then tell him it makes you uncomfortable and you would rather he have his own celebration with her separately.
Originally Posted by Bo562
(I used Catholic Match, which is where I met her—also ironic, I’m sure.) I went to a site like that where it was more likely I’d find good, honest, straight-forward women with good moral standards.
Heh! It's amazing how fast a WAS (whether man or woman) will throw out their "moral standards" for a little fling no matter how staunchly religious they were before. They can find a thousand ways to justify their behavior to God and everyone else.
NIcole, I think the fact that you brought up having him come to D's birthday party as a concern says it all. Tell him you'd rather he not come, and he should do something for her himself. And let him explain what that will be to D. And then let him explain why he didn't follow through.
As far as OLD, you've received lots of good advice. All I'll add is to caution you not to build up any expectations in your mind before meeting anyone. You'll be sorely disappointed more often than not if you do.
M:23 T:26 Me:53, Wife: 60 S:18 D:16 filed 7/16 W moved out 4/28/17
Ovrrnbw, I completely agree. If I try any online dating in the future I'll do as you suggest. As for the party, I guess I'll let him come but he's so unreliable that he might not even come.
Bo, it's good to know sites like that exist! There's no way you could have known what would happen with your wife. You did your best to screen out those who weren't a good match and you and your wife found one another. Seems it was meant to be even if it's not turning out as planned.
DejaVu, that's funny about you and your husband. It turns out you were right about the suggestion to meet as friends. I asked him today what he meant, because he said it again, and he said so that I feel comfortable and don't feel that he expects anything from me.
Davide, turns out you were right! I decided to just ask him. He said there's a big difference when you meet in person compared to communicating online but he's hoping we'll be more than friends. The soonest we can meet is April because there's 4,000 miles between us, but that's fine. We'll see what happens.
AnotherStander, as mentioned above, I decided not to block him but I just asked him how feels and to clarify what he means. I think in the future I'll do that with everyone who I can't meet in person right away if i's not clear whether they're shy, playing games, trying to be cautious, are seeing other people, etc.. It's better to ask and see what they say. If their response is not convincing then it's clear there's no need to talk further. Have you tried that approach? If so, did it work?
Jim, I've been thinking about your suggestion. That's what I feel like doing, but he's also paying for the party and our daughter says she wants him there so I guess I'll try to make Christmas and birthdays an exception for as much as I can tolerate it for her sake. If things become more contentious before the party I'll ask him not to come though. Your advice to not build up expectations is good. I'm going to meet this guy in person but I'm busy in the meantime and I'll just wait and see how it goes. If we don't like each other there's no harm done. At minimum we supported one another through this difficult time just like all us here have been doing.
I hope to respond to all of your threads over the weekend!
AnotherStander, as mentioned above, I decided not to block him but I just asked him how feels and to clarify what he means. I think in the future I'll do that with everyone who I can't meet in person right away if i's not clear whether they're shy, playing games, trying to be cautious, are seeing other people, etc.. It's better to ask and see what they say. If their response is not convincing then it's clear there's no need to talk further. Have you tried that approach? If so, did it work?
I was joking about blocking him, I think you're taking the right approach Yes I did try that because it is really difficult to get a read on people over text or email. I mean REALLY difficult! So yeah, I did often ask for clarification. And sometimes what I wrote would be misunderstood too. Sometimes I'll run across old stuff I wrote (texts, work emails, even stuff here) and it sounds completely different than how I had intended it. That was really one of the reasons I always pushed for a face-to-face meeting is so we could gauge each other's personality and sense of humor. When you are familiar with a person it's easier to understand what they mean when they write something- whether they are kidding or angry or serious.
Hey Nicole! How are you doing? I see up in everyone's threads but I haven't heard an update from you in a while. What's up?
W 34 Me 42 Married 7 years together 8 0 kids 1 beloved dog BD 4/6/2018 I moved out 4/7/2018 I moved back in alone 8/05/2018 I file 3/06/2019 D official 5/7/2019
It's been a few weeks! I got really busy with work to the point where all I've been able to do is work and care for my daughter. I hope to read all of your updates and post on your threads as soon as possible. I'm hoping things start to slow down this week. In the meantime I thought I'd be post a quick update.
There are no changes in my situation. My husband never mentioned divorce again after it came up over the holidays. Apparently he's moving an hour away from us in a month or two but I don't know any details. After the holidays I stopped speaking with him completely. I don't think I mentioned I decided to visit his girlfriend's Instagram account one day, which is now private, but the profile photo has been changed to one of him and her together on a beach somewhere.
About two weeks ago my husband called our daughter three times on a Friday night. During the last call he sounded upset and said "tell Mom that I'm sending her money for a babysitter so she can have a rest." Then this past weekend he visited our daughter and I had to pass by him, unfortunately, to bring the car seat from the car. He no longer comes inside our apartment, but as I entered he said "I need to talk with you in person." I told him to text me. He said "it's not about divorce or anything. We just need to communicate in person." I told him again to text me but he didn't. I don't really know what he thinks or what he's planning but at this point I'm waiting to see what happens when he moves here and starts his apparent new job. I have a lot of concerns about his girlfriend meeting our daughter.
I saw some posts here-and-there about some of your dating stories. It would be so great to meet someone special who's going through the same thing but in my case I haven't even remotely met such a person. The European guy with whom I'd been communicating started sending me videos of himself speaking English and he seemed enthusiastic about meeting until one day he responded late, said he got sick, and I stopped hearing from him a few weeks ago. I have no idea if he met someone else or if he wanted me to follow-up but I haven't written to him because in the last text I said I hope he gets well soon and he easily could have said thanks or said anything to keep the conversation going. The brief glimpse I had of the online dating scene gave me the impression that it's not for me. The other European guy I met through work seems excited to meet when I come to his country but a real-life relationship wouldn't work for us. There's one lone single dad in my building, a few doors down, with a toddler a bit younger than my daughter. We stand in the hallways with our kids sometimes. He's always smiling and laughing and staring at me but he barely says anything except when I ask a question. I can't figure it out....we could be friends but he's either shy, conceited, or not interested.
It's still an odd feeling to feel alone..some days I still wake up and I can't believe my husband is gone. I often feel sad when my neighbors, colleagues, and friends complain about such menial things in their lives and yet they have loving husbands caring for them and helping them. A partnership is such a wonderful thing. Life is already difficult as it is. To share it with someone is just so great. I don't know if I'll ever have that again.
One father of a kid at my daughter's school took care of his kids for two weeks alone while his wife was away. We see each other almost every day so I'd ask how it was going and he'd complain about how hard it was. When his wife got back I asked her where she went and she said "a yoga retreat in Bali." I've never been apart from my daughter for more than a few hours since she was born, which I don't regret, but I can't imagine having such a reliable husband that I'd feel comfortable going away for two weeks. It must be really, really great to have such a husband!
That's all for now, but I hope to respond to your threads soon. AnotherStander, interesting how you note that texts you used to send read differently later on. Davide, thanks for checking-in. How are you doing?
Have to say with the update you gave about your H to me that sounds more like an actual MLC type deal than being wayward. Unlike many of us where you get the "give me a divorce yesterday" rants, my gut feeling is that your H could want to come back someday. Whether you'd want him back is a different story, but I just read MLC based on your update.
Meh...look you need to let the Euro guys go! No matter what the reason they are just too dang far to consider them as "prospects". I will say just because you haven't heard from the one guy in a while doesn't mean you might not hear from him again. Just let him go and keep on making your best life. As for the Dad at work, for whatever reasons, most likely just not a match...just keep on moving. FWIW Miss Sunshine AGAIN contacted me last night. It is wonderful to get to a point in life where you can have the freedom to choose your paths for yourself by yourself once again.
I can relate to your feelings on waking up some days and being like "I still can't believe they are gone". You have your wonderful daughter and if I get to feeling sad I pour more love into my D4. Definitely agree on being able to share a life with someone. A partner to face all of life's challenges with while also making wonderful memories with. Don't know if I'll have that again either, but it is refreshing to at least be clear of our ex's enough to have a sense of fresh hope and possibilities.
My WW asked last week if I'd be interested in having my D4 for longer than usual while she goes on a trip. Of course I said. For many men who are wonderful fathers and wish they could continue learning to be wonderful husbands, they never even have to hear their wives complete the question. It is always an empathic YES! Perhaps those kinds of men are more special and hard to find than I realize, but they are out there. All I can tell you is that for me any day my D4 is not with me is a day that I wish she was.
A+++++ on detaching... doesn't it feel empowering??? He's kind of chasing you down trying to get your attention and you're like not interested... GO GIRL!!!
Let him wonder... let him stew on why you aren't dropping everything for him.
I saw this a few days ago, but didn’t have a chance to comment.
Originally Posted by NicoleR
It's still an odd feeling to feel alone..some days I still wake up and I can't believe my husband is gone. I often feel sad when my neighbors, colleagues, and friends complain about such menial things in their lives and yet they have loving husbands caring for them and helping them. A partnership is such a wonderful thing. Life is already difficult as it is. To share it with someone is just so great. I don't know if I'll ever have that again.
I do agree with you, that having someone to share life with is really great. It’s my hope that both of us can find that again, and I believe that you will, too, even if it takes some time (and I would need to prepare myself for that, as well).
In the meantime, I would like to encourage you to make yourself the best you can be; for yourself, but also for your D. You both deserve the best, and for you to be the best person for her. She will need that for the young woman she is to be in the future.
Originally Posted by NicoleR
One father of a kid at my daughter's school took care of his kids for two weeks alone while his wife was away. We see each other almost every day so I'd ask how it was going and he'd complain about how hard it was. When his wife got back I asked her where she went and she said "a yoga retreat in Bali." I've never been apart from my daughter for more than a few hours since she was born, which I don't regret, but I can't imagine having such a reliable husband that I'd feel comfortable going away for two weeks. It must be really, really great to have such a husband!
My W (or STBXW?) goes away for work fairly often—sometimes works 2nd shift, sometimes does overnights, or goes away for a couple of days, a few weeks (4 weeks or 30 days), or has even done up to 3 months away (about 90 days), and she will be looking to again do so this September, up through December, for training for another position / promotion (she will be gone for 3 months or so this fall).
My L is a successful, accomplished L and career woman—and even she can’t fathom why W would want to be gone for stretches like that.
Earlier, in my MR, I was more grumbly and complain-y about it (and I probably shouldn’t have); but over the last couple of years, I’ve come to more of a place of acceptance, and even in the last couple of weeks, there have been instances where she’s needed me to take care of both of the boys because she has work stuff going on. W asked me about it, and I told her “that will not be a problem.”
It’s not exactly easy, but it gets easier, and I’ve learned to manage and cope better; in light of recent events, I’m also trying to embrace the extra time with them, and realize that for myself this is a glimpse into my probable future, so I should learn to accept and embrace it more.
Good to hear from you! It sounds like you are making progress on the detachment front. It's nice to be at a point that you really don't care what your WAS is doing. I will say that it is a process that is far from linear, there are ebbs and flows, so make sure to cut yourself some slack if you struggle.
Living alone is definitely adjustment. There is a richness in sharing experiences, both joyful and difficult, with someone else. However, I think it has been an important step for me. Learning to appreciate the silence, to sit with yourself, to find your own joy. (Maybe not as much silence with a little one!) I think it is easier to find a partner when you are already enjoying a rich life and have something to share with them.
In terms of dating, you just need to listen to yourself, don't force anything. I think it's a great step that you are looking around and seeing the various options around you, from the distant European guys, to the quiet dad in your building. Who knows if anything could or will work out, but the more you open yourself up to the possibilities the more you create possibilities. Have fun with it!
W 34 Me 42 Married 7 years together 8 0 kids 1 beloved dog BD 4/6/2018 I moved out 4/7/2018 I moved back in alone 8/05/2018 I file 3/06/2019 D official 5/7/2019
BH: 36 WW:33 M: 2 Relationship: 6 years. Dday: Aug 2018 0 1st mention of D: 30/09, 2nd Mention 17/02/2019 LRT: Oct 2018 WW & AP: EA & PA since June 2018 (Moved country and in with AP Feb 2019)
I hope you're all doing as well as possible. I've been trying so hard to post these last few weeks but it hasn't worked out. I had work deadlines, my daughter's birthday parties (multiple ones), and we just got back from our trip to Europe. I'll respond to the last posts and then I'll share an update.
Ballast, I'm not sure if I can let the Euro guys go! Particularly one of them. I'll share an update about that below. I've been focusing on my daughter as I've done since she was born. Since it's just her and I she gets all of my attention and I love her so much. I wish I could give her a loving father! I agree if our marriages can't be saved under any circumstances it's nice to be clear of ex's and try to have fresh hope. Seems you're making progress in that area! That's admirable you want your daughter as much as possible. She's lucky to have you!
KitKat, thanks for your encouragement. I'm not sure if my husband was chasing but I'm sure he notices that I stopped communicating with him. The thing is that he used to call me a lot and complain about stuff and try to talk and if he was single that'd be fine since it might open doors to reconciliation. Now that I know his girlfriend lives with him in our house I can't do that anymore. It's just too hard and not fair so I feel that ending communication is the only option at this time.
Bo, I hope to find someone again if it's possible. I've been trying to hard to be the best I can be....overall I've rebuilt my life and I have a solid career and I'm dedicated to my daughter and together we have many friends and activities but there'll always be that void even though it can be filled in many ways. It's really strange that parents can leave their kids for so long. I can't really imagine it. I'd love to try having my daughter stay overnight with her dad or with a friend but not longer than that! It's great that your take your kids and that you're the stable parent for them. You have a healthy attitude and you're a great dad. This will be really attractive to women that you might meet in the future!
Davide, yes detachment gets better with no communication. I can see how it's easier to find a partner with a rich life. I hope your journey is going well. I'll read and respond to your thread as soon as possible! I do want to be open to new possibilities although it would be hard to dive into anything. It'll have to be very slow.
Manta, thanks so much for checking in. I will respond to your thread soon too.
Update: I had a fun time planning my daughter's birthday parties and then we just got back from a great trip to Northern Europe. The trip helped a lot - prior to leaving I was really stressed and felt weighed down by everything. It was great to go there and see old friends and familiar places...to breath fresh and air and spend eight to ten hours per day outdoors with beautiful scenery. I'm hoping to go back in a few weeks and to figure out a longer term plan to live there part-time.
During the trip I met the guy from work. It was great! As I've mentioned in the past I don't want to date him since he's younger and has no kids. I just wanted to enjoy our time together so we had lunch with my daughter (I couldn't find a babysitter and he said he wanted to meet her) and we talked about work, the great life in his country, our mutual friends, etc.. He's dating someone and I told him about my situation and everything was great. Originally I didn't see him as someone I'd have as a long term friend but now I feel we're real friends and we'll continue to cross paths.
Then there's the other guy I had met online last year who is going through the same situation we're all dealing with here on this forum. After we were in touch in February he stopped responding and disappeared as I wrote in my last update. I was telling my friends in his country about it and they encouraged me to contact him. Initially I didn't agree because why would I try to contact someone who's not interested? Then towards the end of the trip I felt really uncomfortable but I sent him a message to say hi and that I was there in his city. He responded right away with messages and photos and asking about my schedule. He said he'd been thinking of me a lot (in my mind I was like seriously? He knew I was coming and he knew it was my birthday and he didn't write so how could he have been thinking about me?). It seems he'd been waiting for me to make a move. Apparently this is somewhat common in his culture? We decided to meet up a day later. I had no one to watch my daughter and he had no one to watch his kids so we planned a family excursion to an island. Normally this wouldn't be appropriate but there was no other choice. My daughter didn't behave well but we spent the day together. We were mainly focused on our own kids but I think our attraction was mutual (and actually immediate). He sent a lot of compliments after our meeting and he wants to meet again soon. It's complicated because he's just as traumatized about his partner leaving for another man as I am about my husband and we both are single parents to young kids. I think if we are cautious and communicate carefully we can see how it goes. More than anything it'd be nice to have a friendship with someone who's dealing with the same situation who is also a potential partner but not an immediate partner. I think being long distance is an advantage because it helps us to focus on our kids and every day life and we can see how things evolve.
Overall my thoughts are mixed about meeting someone new. Meeting someone new creates new risks but it's also probably the ultimate step towards moving on. There is the possibility of moving on and then his partner returns to him or my husband returns to me and then we're caught in the dilemma of hurting the new person vs. risking getting hurt again by the one who left us. I do think there's a strong chance my husband will return within five or ten years and our daughter will still be quite young and we could give her a family again if he's ready to completely reform himself but it'll be hard. Knowing he brought his girlfriend to live in the house that we built as a family makes it a lot harder to think about trying again. I encourage anyone here who has no idea why their husband or wife left to seek the truth. In my case it helped to erase the ambiguity. I can't say it made things easier but it facilitated the decision to stop talking.
I hope I can respond to your threads. I will see if I can stay awake tonight. I have some jet lag but if not tonight I'll try for the weekend!
I love the fact that you are busy! Busy getting your own life!!! Kudos!
I love that you are at a point where you don't beat yourself up for not taking that call 1am because you were asleep and you just know that he was calling to say he messed up and wanted you back and missed your opportunity.
It is wonderful to hear how filled with activity, joy, and men(!) your life has been! I know that you have been very cautious about embarking on any sort of relationship, but it seems like you are slowly opening up to letting new men into your life as friends or possibly more. Being open to the possibilities is incredibly freeing.
Enjoy this new life! You have come a long way and it is great to see that you have reached a place that you can enjoy it.
Last edited by Cadet; 05/06/1905:19 PM. Reason: Start a new thread message
W 34 Me 42 Married 7 years together 8 0 kids 1 beloved dog BD 4/6/2018 I moved out 4/7/2018 I moved back in alone 8/05/2018 I file 3/06/2019 D official 5/7/2019
Sit quietly, the answers will reveal themselves when you least expect them to. The past is gone, the present is a gift and you need to focus on today, allow the future to reveal itself when it is ready.
