Yep. Right in this thread. I am going to give you the secret to saving your marriage. But first you have to endure me giving a diatribe first.
When BD happened (initiated by me) in my sitch, I did what a lot of you newcomers did. I begged. I pleaded. I reasoned. I used logic. I pointed out how devastating it would be to our parents, our friends, our daughter, our church. I cried. I was sad. I pouted. I acted hurt (and I was hurt). I moped around for two days.
On day three I remembered that there were resources out there for this kind of thing. This wasn't my W's first EA. She had one in 2005 too. That was when I found MWD, among other "save your marriage" experts. I read MWD's emails. I read other expert's emails. I didn't follow through on a lot because in 2005 my W immediately said she wanted to save the marriage, didn't want a D, and was willing to work on us. In retrospect this was bad because I took the easy way out. This time though she wanted out. So I immediately began subscribing to mailing lists, paying for books.
I spent a lot of money in the next couple weeks. Bought a very expensive "save your marriage program". Bought countless ebooks. Went to the library and rented other books. I was an information gathering machine. My #1 GAL activity was reading self-help books, both personal and marital. I paid for private counseling sessions with some of the experts.
The techniques were wide and varied. Pursue. Don't pursue. Give her space (almost all agreed on this). Some advocated no contact, some advocated starting to do the little things that won her in the first place. The advice was all over the place.
I also began to read other's sitches and outcomes. There were those that pursued and pressured. Their results in successfully saving their marriages was low. There were those that convinced their spouses to engage in marital programs with them. Their results were mixed. Others that got their spouses to agree to counseling. Their results were very low. On and on and on.
Of all the experts' advice, there was one tactic that worked more than any other. It seemed the most counter-intuitive of all of the tactics. After all, as a LBS I wanted a magic bullet. "DO THIS AND IT IS GUARANTEED TO SAVE YOUR MARRIAGE!" I wanted to find the one thing to say that would fix everything. "SAY THIS AND YOU WILL SAVE YOUR MARRIAGE!" I wanted to find the on tactic that would give me the best chance. "Employ this change in your behavior and you will have a great chance at saving your marriage!" None of that worked very well when I looked at it.
In fact, I remember one expert suggested you find someone that your spouse really admired. And the next time you had the opportunity you told pointed out to them what that person would think of their decision. I knew for my W that person was her Grandmother that had passed away in 88. She loved her grandmother, who was a very pious, good woman that was with her grandfather for over 50 years until she passed away. My W greatly admired her grandmother and often patterned her life based on what her grandmother would have thought. She so wanted to do things her grandmother would approve of. So the next opportunity I got I told her "I wonder if you'd be choosing this path if your grandmother were still alive. She'd so want you to be the Christian wife and mother that you've always been." Yeah, that did nothing to help my sitch. If anything my WW attitude was "how dare you bring up my dead grandmother!"
So what was this counter-intuitive tactic that seemed to be the most successful at saving marriages? Do you want to know the one thing you can do above all others to give you the best chance at saving your marriage? Here it is:
Stop trying to save your marriage.
That right. Of all the advice I received about things I could do. Things I could say. Tactics I could employ. The one that got the most praise for actually working, and the one that worked best in my sitch, was to NOT try to save my marriage. Letting go. Giving up. Telling her that while I didn't agree with the choice she was making that I would do nothing to stand in her way. Dropping the rope. Moving on. That was what worked the best!
I remember the first chink in the armor of her resolve to leave the marriage. It was as we were leaving to go to Christmas dinner with her family. "I said, wow it just hit me that this will be the last time I celebrate Christmas with your family." She immediately launched into this diatribe about how she didn't want to say anything about leaving until after the holidays because she thought that once all of the holiday fanfare died down that maybe she would have a change of heart and not want to leave. And then she could spare us all of the pain and drama (remember I initiated BD).
The second time I saw her having doubts was once I established a boundary about if we were going to stay together I could only do so if she was open to complete transparency. She then said "Okay then I need to get my resume together." I offered to help her, and offered to buy her any books she wanted on resume writing and interviewing. She spent the next half day working on her resume, with my being completely onboard with her decision, until she came out of the office in tears talking about how she knew Ding was wrong, and that God hated D, and that it would be better if we could work things out.
Every time I pursued, pressured, chased, tried to get her to stay.............that was when she resolved to leave. Every time I showed her I was perfectly fine with her leaving, and even endorsed it, she start having second thoughts.
Newbies. DROP THAT ROPE. Get a life. 180 on your poor behavior for yourself. Detach from your WAS. Do all of that, but above all stop trying to save your marriage. By doing that you just might save it anyway.
M(53), W(54),D(19) M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017 Ring and Piecing since March 2018
Steve, real question here. A lot of folks who have followed DBing and done the work and had patience and succeeded I've noticed have a close relationship with religion. Do you think this is a big part? Being a couple in which D is seen as "wrong" within their faith?
Steve, real question here. A lot of folks who have followed DBing and done the work and had patience and succeeded I've noticed have a close relationship with religion. Do you think this is a big part? Being a couple in which D is seen as "wrong" within their faith?
I'm curious to others thoughts as well.
Interesting that you bring this up. And to be honest with it it is a two part answer.
Religion can either greatly help you. Or greatly hurt you.
If you read the sitches here you will see there are a fair number of religious folks here. In those that are religious' sitches you will see that either the WAS went full bore and left their church. Or wanted to try to keep the sitch quiet and away from the church until they were ready to really leave.
In the former sitches the vast majority do not end in R. Once the religious WAS makes the choice to give up their faith publicly, they rarely go back on that decision.
In the cases where the WAS wants to keep it quiet until they are ready, it is about 50/50. Half the time they will decide that they want to save their MR, that they aren't ready to give up their faith, and they decide to stay. The other half of the time they eventually get to the point where they are ready to go scorched earth and D and leave their church.
Can it help? Yes. Is it a guarantee? No.
Also, one cautionary note. The LBS in the second camp often think it is to their advantage to out their WAS to their church. This almost always backfires. If you are a LBS that is religious and dealing with a WAS that hasn't revealed their walk away desire to the church. DO NOT OUT THEM TO THE CHURCH. That can become a bridge to far for the WAS to come back from.
M(53), W(54),D(19) M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017 Ring and Piecing since March 2018
Steve, Amazing post, thank you for taking the time to write that.
Yail, I think belief in something is critical for us LBS and as Steve pointed out doesn't make much difference to the WAS. From my limited knowledge of the WAS nothing matters to them and nothing will stand in their way. For the LBS though having some sort of belief I think is critical but it doesn't have to be religious. It could be that God has better things in store for us and a master plan and that can help carry the LBS through with faith that it is happening for the best. An LBS could not believe in God or religion at all but I think they still need to have some sort of trust that it is out of their hands and they will come out of it on the other side just fine.
Following up Yail's question, two others: 1. Does having kids make a difference? 2. Is it true that R is more likely when the WS/WAS is the husband? I read somewhere that when the W leaves it means that something went horribly wrong and it was really the last resort, while we males tend to be flakier. Thoughts? Asking for a friend...
H: 35 W: 33 M: 11 T: 13
4/10/18: I discovered A and confronted ("BD1") 6/23/18: I moved out 8/31/18: MC ends ("BD2")
I can answer the kids part. It just makes everything so much harder.
H(37) W(35) D8, D5, S3 T20, M13 BD 8/31/18 EA Discovered 9/13/18 Mediation 10/3/18 W files for D 10/12/18 W moves out 11/10/18 EA confirmed 12/25/18 D Final 1/10/19
Burned, I have heard those stats about W leaving as well but disagree that it is because something went horribly wrong and it really was the last resort. You could easily replace H with W in a lot of situations here and my W is no different, she is acting exactly like a lot of the H's on here. I think a WAS is the same regardless of gender but I do think women go back on there decision less often then males.
My two cents on the W vs H piece - I personally think a great deal of this is learned gendered behavior in our society. Women are taught to nurture others and to almost martyr themselves for the good of the family. So in walking away, they've had to give up SO MUCH of their identity to get to that point that it is probably harder to walk back. And for some of them they may secretly resent the position they lived in their whole lives. The freedom to cast off the identity that has been pushed towards them since birth may be too enticing.
I think this may be why DB is so important, especially for H wanting a W back. He must be patient and back off to show that it is not his intent to box her back into the pressures society has pressed on her. She must feel confident in walking back to him as a PERSON and that they have the freedom to redefine their own marriage outside of societal pressures.
Of course H have pressure and roles in the family as well, I certainly don't mean that they don't. But I hope most of us see that the pressure for a W and especially a mother is often constricting.
An LBS could not believe in God or religion at all but I think they still need to have some sort of trust that it is out of their hands and they will come out of it on the other side just fine.
Agreed. I happen to not be religious at all. But there is something about quiet faith in the unknown that is needed. Maybe it's our faith in ourselves, or humanity, or biology. I know that I've had a couple of mini panic attacks over the past few weeks. During them I just gently remind myself, "You will not die from a panic attack. It will pass. Breathe. This will pass. Look around you - you are safe. You are safe". I have to remind my body that this is a fleeting moment and that the next one will improve. I try to look at myself objectively - as an animal on Earth. For me, it helps.
The other thing that helps is that I remind myself every success story starts with adversity. This insane pain we are in right now is what we need to get through in order to have our success story. Otherwise, we're just floating through life without attachment. I'm so very curious to see what my success story consists of.
Yail, I have found some articles that suggest the opposite and it seems to fit my sitch. You are bang on the money about the learned gendered behavior but these articles talk about it in a different light. The articles suggested that a lot of women sought out partners that would allow them to live outside of those gendered behaviors, partners that would take on more of the formerly feminine roles of family life. The unintended result however was that they found themselves less and less attracted to these partners because of the blurred lines between masculine and feminine.
Not sure how much truth there is behind this and it likely depends on age but it certainly seems to fit my sitch more accurately.
I think each sitch has there own unique quirks, but the WAS script and LBS script all seems similar to a point. I think Steve's point seems to be a strong truth that pervades all sitchs. Just let go.
Yail I think some of what you are hitting on about the H vs W holds some truth for my W. I think she had believed in the W & Mother gender roles fully. Over time I think she starting have some degree of resentment towards those roles or those values started eroding, that and the many other issues she is dealing with. Hard to say, we are all speculating without being able to really get the truth from the source.
Last edited by Twofeet; 11/28/1812:05 AM.
H(37) W(35) D8, D5, S3 T20, M13 BD 8/31/18 EA Discovered 9/13/18 Mediation 10/3/18 W files for D 10/12/18 W moves out 11/10/18 EA confirmed 12/25/18 D Final 1/10/19
Yail, I have found some articles that suggest the opposite and it seems to fit my sitch. You are bang on the money about the learned gendered behavior but these articles talk about it in a different light. The articles suggested that a lot of women sought out partners that would allow them to live outside of those gendered behaviors, partners that would take on more of the formerly feminine roles of family life. The unintended result however was that they found themselves less and less attracted to these partners because of the blurred lines between masculine and feminine.
Not sure how much truth there is behind this and it likely depends on age but it certainly seems to fit my sitch more accurately.
Are you referring specifically to NGS? I'm sure that's very true I could see that. I think the issue is that both H and W want true partners who will carry their weight - however that is determined between the couple. But it must feel balanced.
I guess what I mean when I say women and the gendered behaviors is less about what tasks each person does (cooking/cleaning vs money making etc.) and more about the weight of the relationship that the W often carries. It is still down to her to "make it work". It's still seen as her responsibility. Again, I am really not trying to use blanket statements or imply that men don't have this pressure.
I'm imagining a scenario where there is a W who loves her work outside the home, and a H who is a fantastic homemaker. And W is frustrated and becomes WAS. I'm not sure it's because H isn't "masculine" enough, but maybe because she has to decide everything. He's a laid back guy. And while the tasks are divided equally, perhaps the power isn't.
At its core, I think this is what people misunderstand about feminism. This is not women wanting all the power. It's women wanting our share, and for men to share that other half with us.
I think each sitch has there own unique quirks, but the WAS script and LBS script all seems similar to a point. I think Steve's point seems to be a strong truth that pervades all sitchs. Just let go.
Yail I think some of what you are hitting on about the H vs W holds some truth for my W. I think she had believed in the W & Mother gender roles fully. Over time I think she starting have some degree of resentment towards those roles or those values started eroding, that and the many other issues she is dealing with. Hard to say, we are all speculating without being able to really get the truth from the source.
TF, exactly. Whether you are a LBH or LBW dealing wtih a LBH or LBW, the fastest way to D is to hold on too tightly. Almost every newbie comes to this forum with a death-grip on their WAS.
It reminds me of our cat. If the cat jumps up to lay with me and I put my arm around her, she immediately struggles and wants down. But If she come up and nuzzles her way under my arm she'll lay there for literally hours. WAS are exactly like that. It has to be THEIR idea or they buck it.
Good exchanges on the differences in dealing with WAWs and WAHs. Some good insight. As stated there are a lot of differences, many societal. A WAH has had to deal with, in most sitches, the thought of paying support post D, etc. A WAW often times has to deal with the idea of becoming financially self-sufficient. So yes there are lots of considerations and some are specific to gender.
But WASs are also very similar no matter gender or situation. Most have already worked through obstacles and logistics. Which is why trying to guilt, or reason them into staying doesn't work. In my own sitch, as relayed in my OP above, I initially used D14, family, friends, church etc, even the dogs!. But she'd already worked through most of that in her head. This is important to newbies, rarely will you think of an angle, shortly post-BD, that the WAS hasn't already considered leading up to BD.
The point is that letting go and NOT trying to save the marriage is still your best approach. Not a guarantee, as there are no guarantees, but it gives you the best chance. That is why DBing is so important. GAL, 180s, and detachment all work TOWARDS not saving the marriage. They work on saving YOU. Save yourself, and sometimes the MR comes along for the ride.
M(53), W(54),D(19) M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017 Ring and Piecing since March 2018
One other issue I see coming up a lot, that I want to address in this thread, is this idea that the WAS is so egotistical and stubborn that they will never go back on their declaration of wanting a D. I see a lot of newbies struggling with this. A common statement is "He or she rarely goes back on a decision once they've made up their mind."
First, I always like to point out that the decision to D was a change of mind! Most of us stood before a preacher and a church, in front of friends and family, and declared undying love and commitment to our spouses. And our spouses reciprocated. Wouldn't the same "they are too stubborn to go back on their decision" also apply to the marital vows? So if they changed their mind once then logically they could change their mind again.
No one is more stubborn than my W. I can tell you stories about her stubbornness. Yet as sure as she was on BD and the days following that she wanted a D she eventually relented. I could share (for privacy I won't) a dating site profile she put up a few weeks into our sitch where she stated that while she was married and couldn't date now, she was uncategorically going to D her husband, and so would be able to date at a later time. (Her logic was to "test" the waters.)
Yet just a couple of months later she was fully committed to Ring and we were in MC working on MR 2.0.
Second, that same stubbornness can work positively in your sitch. Most WASs expect their spouses to be sad, unhappy, mopey, clingy, angry, upset, disappointed, devastated, unable to go on post BD. When you flip that script it can have a profound effect on the WAS. This is why detachment as soon as possible is so important. Being present, pleased, content, happy, upbeat, easy-going, and having an attitude of "I am going to be just fine no matter what" will often make the LBS' scratch their heads and wonder, "why are they so okay with this?" They then start to question their decision to D. And this is where their stubbornness comes in. They often will have an attitude of "oh no, you ain't getting rid of me that easily!". This is why the distance-pursuit dynamic, and understanding it, is so important (see my analogy of my cat in my previous post).
Lastly, people are stubborn but even the most stubborn will give up their "endeavor" if they deem it not beneficial or even detrimental. For instance, I may be stubborn as a mule. And feel I must walk south in Arizona to get to a desired destination as quickly as I can. But if I come to the edge of the northern rim of the Grand Canyon I am going to give up my stubbornness at continuing to walk south in order to not fall thousands of feet to my death! WAS see their decision to D as beneficial....but if they come to the realization that that is not the case anymore they will be willing to give up their quest no matter how stubborn they may be.
Almost all WASs are stubborn. None of them like to go back on their "I want a D" decree. But that doesn't mean that it is impossible for them to change their mind eventually.
M(53), W(54),D(19) M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017 Ring and Piecing since March 2018
A common statement is "He or she rarely goes back on a decision once they've made up their mind."
First, I always like to point out that the decision to D was a change of mind! Most of us stood before a preacher and a church, in front of friends and family, and declared undying love and commitment to our spouses. And our spouses reciprocated. Wouldn't the same "they are too stubborn to go back on their decision" also apply to the marital vows? So if they changed their mind once then logically they could change their mind again.
I think the part I struggle with in this example is that a marriage is an action that society wholeheartedly approves of. But reconciliation after S or D, especially when there is an A involved - that's not as universally accepted. So the WAS will be dealing with potentially a whole lot of people saying to the LBS "WHY would you do that!? Don't take them back!" so the WAS has not only their own mind to change, but they also know they'll have to fight the more public shame. And I wonder how many have the fortitude to do that.
A common statement is "He or she rarely goes back on a decision once they've made up their mind."
First, I always like to point out that the decision to D was a change of mind! Most of us stood before a preacher and a church, in front of friends and family, and declared undying love and commitment to our spouses. And our spouses reciprocated. Wouldn't the same "they are too stubborn to go back on their decision" also apply to the marital vows? So if they changed their mind once then logically they could change their mind again.
I think the part I struggle with in this example is that a marriage is an action that society wholeheartedly approves of. But reconciliation after S or D, especially when there is an A involved - that's not as universally accepted. So the WAS will be dealing with potentially a whole lot of people saying to the LBS "WHY would you do that!? Don't take them back!" so the WAS has not only their own mind to change, but they also know they'll have to fight the more public shame. And I wonder how many have the fortitude to do that.
Yail, this is an excellent point. This is why I advise LBSs to not tell others (friends, family, church members, etc) about their sitch. It is tough because when we go through things like this we tend to want to lean on the support of others. But for the very reason you just mentioned it is a bad idea. The less obstacles you put in front of your WAS to coming back for R the better.
Many have already squeezed that toothpaste out of the tube by time they com here. To that I say, if R is going to occur i will occur no matter who knows or doesn't know and what they have to say. Not everyone thinks a couple should marry. Not everyone thinks they should D. Not everyone thinks they should stay together. Leaving their spouse is a huge step by the WAS. If they took that huge step they can certainly face the obstacles to decide to R as well.
M(53), W(54),D(19) M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017 Ring and Piecing since March 2018
Truth truth and more truth Steve. I didn't come here until 3 months in and that slowed my progress but once I DB'ed FT, and reading up just like you, I saw things change drastically. Not just my WW starting to pull back but me pulling away and comfortably. I am at a bit over 6 months since BD and WW does not seem so wayward anymore, unless she still contacts OM but I could care less. More and more expressions from her about not wanting to lose me and she is working on her issues that led to this and I honestly spend time thinking about how far I have come and whether I want her back.
I did contact family members and friends in the beginning and it definitely hampered the sitch but I had no clue how to handle it at the time. My first go round with this 10 years ago was just like yours...quick pull back from A, swept under the rug and moved on. Not this time though, thanks to the advice here....I need to know if this is right for me depending on how things will move forward.
Stick to the rules/advice, educate yourself, get legal advice if needed and take care of your kids if you have them. This stuff does work a lot better than you would think.
Last edited by lost8; 11/28/1803:34 PM.
H-50 W-48 T-19 M -18 S23, S14 BD - 5/9/2018 OM discovered 5/10/2018
In house sep - 8/18/2018 Rope drop 2/15/2019 R'ing since 3/15/2019
Great posts Steve! Your first post reminded me so much of my early days after DB. Desperately searching the internet for the "magic pill" to fix everything. Frantically calling every marriage counselor in the phone book because I thought it was an emergency that needed defibrillator action. I remember buying one of those "here's the thing you need to do to save your M right now" programs and got some ridiculous PDF full of typos and grammatical errors that looked like it had been written in 5 minutes by someone in a drunken stupor (I don't hold those who prey on the desperate to make a buck in very high regard). But it took most of our spouses months or (more likely) years to get to the point they are, and there is no quick fix for that. It takes a lot of hard work and time, and even then the outcome of the M is uncertain. But the beauty of DB'ing is that even if it doesn't save the M, it saves us!
Steve, what an exceptional post! While I am not any closer to saving my own MR I can definitely say I understand the sentiment and reasoning behind this so much better than i did a few months ago. As always, thank you.
The further into my sitch I am, the more I see the brilliance of this. I feel better about the future and myself when I am really doing well in moving on, detaching, and not reacting to the little bits H throws my way.
New to this thread. I’m with you on this one, Grace. What I would do well to remember in my thread / situation is to not react to the ‘little bits [my W] throws my way.’ Glad to hear it put that way, thank you!
New to this thread. I’m with you on this one, Grace. What I would do well to remember in my thread / situation is to not react to the ‘little bits [my W] throws my way.’ Glad to hear it put that way, thank you!
Don't react to anything they throw your way. That's what they're looking for: a reaction. Which means they still have you right where they want you.
H 34 W 29 BD 3/12/18 Divorce Busted Spring 19
It is not things that bother us, but the stories we tell ourselves about things.
11/12/17 "I don't want to be married like this" A began 7/12/18 Confessed A 10/1/19 EA still happening with 2 4/23/19 "I want a D, but I want to stay until I find a job"
Even if this doesnt work to save your M. It will work to save yourself. Everyone knows my MR ended on May 15, 2019, three days after my 18th anniversary. I am fine with that, because DB helped me find my b@lls.
DB helped me see how valuable I am. DB helped me understand that I am important and that I cannot control others. DB helped me start working toward being the man that I want to be and I was determined to do so with or without my WW.
We only control one thing in life, and that is ourselves. Thats it. Nothing else.
M:16 T:21 H(me) 38 WW: 38 S11 D16 D19 Red Flags of A: March 2018 ILYBNILWY: August 4, 2018 Moved out of MBR: September 24, 2018 BD/Confirmation of A: October 31, 2018 D Filed: March 27, 2019
I am right there with you ST. I am becoming the person I want to be as well. I did not save my marriage... my H made sure there was no hope for that. I have accepted it and moved on and most importantly, I, too, have saved myself. I feel so blessed to have found this board and to the people on it who took the time to encourage and mentor me and tell me the realities that I didn’t always want to hear...but always what I needed to hear. And not only did I find myself again, but I have made new friends and met people I would never have met if this hadn’t happened to me. I am so grateful for those people and for the people in my life who were with me through it all. Love and (((HUGS))) to all of you.
Steve, you are such an asset to this motley crew. I can't debate a word of your explanations. I hope that noobs won't take it as cliff notes and skip the book. Because hearing these things and fully understanding them is different. Even after reading it many of us had to see it work to accept it. Better to get it, sooner than later.
Now if there were a clear path out of Limbo Land.
M 53 W 54, M since 98 D15, D19 8/2013 discovered EA, W maintained contact with OM until 10/14 7/2/17 W said she wanted S, 7/25/17 moved out of MBR 12/17 W says moving out 5/18, W still in home.
Steve, real question here. A lot of folks who have followed DBing and done the work and had patience and succeeded I've noticed have a close relationship with religion. Do you think this is a big part? Being a couple in which D is seen as "wrong" within their faith?
I'm curious to others thoughts as well.
I am an agnostic (previously I would have said I'm atheist).
My wife is a sworn atheist who believes the Bible is nothing more than fairytales.
Bomb day was January 2008 and we're still together. 3 children have come since.
I think whether or not you're religious has no bearing on your "sitch". None whatsoever.
Me: 46 W: 46 T: 23 M: 20 DS12 DD11 DS5
W left: 01/28/08 Discovered OM: 02/26/08 W back for 9 days: 04/08 W returned 05/21/08 EA/PA - 01/08-07/09 W's MLC 2008-2014 (realised this much later)
I think whether or not you're religious has no bearing on your "sitch". None whatsoever.
I think what you mean is it has little to do with whether or not you'll be able to save your marriage. Obviously, religion, or lack thereof, has a role to play in your "sitch".
M(53), W(54),D(19) M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017 Ring and Piecing since March 2018
I think whether or not you're religious has no bearing on your "sitch". None whatsoever.
I think what you mean is it has little to do with whether or not you'll be able to save your marriage. Obviously, religion, or lack thereof, has a role to play in your "sitch".
That's exactly what I meant.
Except religion or lack thereof will have no influence at all on how your "sitch" develops.
That is, whether you save your marriage or not.
Me: 46 W: 46 T: 23 M: 20 DS12 DD11 DS5
W left: 01/28/08 Discovered OM: 02/26/08 W back for 9 days: 04/08 W returned 05/21/08 EA/PA - 01/08-07/09 W's MLC 2008-2014 (realised this much later)
GH, I do have to argue, that in my sitch, it did play a small role. At one point early on she talked like she would give religion up. But never followed through. At one point she began talking about how God hates D, and that knowing that made her want to want to stay. That's not a typo. She wanted to want to stay because she knew it was wrong.
However, I can't argue with your overall premise because in most cases, WASs, and WSs in particular, are prepared to go scorched Earth, including their religion.
M(53), W(54),D(19) M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017 Ring and Piecing since March 2018
To say that any one variable does or doesn't affect one's sitch is pure conjecture.
Unless you could test it both ways keeping all other variables constant. Who knows?
To that point, I believe that religion has everything to do with the outcome.
M 53 W 54, M since 98 D15, D19 8/2013 discovered EA, W maintained contact with OM until 10/14 7/2/17 W said she wanted S, 7/25/17 moved out of MBR 12/17 W says moving out 5/18, W still in home.
To say that any one variable does or doesn't affect one's sitch is pure conjecture.
Unless you could test it both ways keeping all other variables constant. Who knows?
To that point, I believe that religion has everything to do with the outcome.
Now I'm really confused.
Assertion 1: First you wrote "to say one variable does or doesn't affect the outcome is pure conjecture".
Religion is a variable, some absolutely swear by it, others (like my wife) put it in the same category as the Tooth Fairy, the Easter Bunny and leprechauns.
Assertion 2: You believe religion has everything to do with the outcome.
How can both assertions possibly be true?
Me: 46 W: 46 T: 23 M: 20 DS12 DD11 DS5
W left: 01/28/08 Discovered OM: 02/26/08 W back for 9 days: 04/08 W returned 05/21/08 EA/PA - 01/08-07/09 W's MLC 2008-2014 (realised this much later)
I am not a religious person. I was raised Christian and believe in god. I feel that religion can affect a sitch solely based on the fact that most people who are religious truly understand what it means to have faith.
Even though I am not religious, I have faith that my life will work out like its supposed to.
Religion and the Bible can absolutely give you guidance at minimum.
M:16 T:21 H(me) 38 WW: 38 S11 D16 D19 Red Flags of A: March 2018 ILYBNILWY: August 4, 2018 Moved out of MBR: September 24, 2018 BD/Confirmation of A: October 31, 2018 D Filed: March 27, 2019
Obviously your personal religious/ spiritual beliefs come into play in this and all other aspects of your life. But, WAW's can rationalize darned near anything and everything. They will convince themselves what they are doing is good and right now matter how strong their religious convictions. It might go something like this- "God wants me to be happy. I am not happy in this marriage and that makes God sad. Since he wants me to be happy then he would approve of me getting a separation and eventually divorce. He knows I tried everything to save the M." This is why we say not to ask others to intervene. Even if it's a pastor/ priest/ etc. that the WAW previously respected, she will convince herself he is now wrong.
My EXWW literally told me that I was the one that was wrong. She literally convinced herself that even though every single person that we know, thinks adultery is wrong, and what she did is wrong/hateful/hurtful, that everyone else was wrong, because she didn't think it was wrong. She literally told me that and that she was right in what she did. Again, the hateful things she said helped push me away and see that I deserve so much better.
M:16 T:21 H(me) 38 WW: 38 S11 D16 D19 Red Flags of A: March 2018 ILYBNILWY: August 4, 2018 Moved out of MBR: September 24, 2018 BD/Confirmation of A: October 31, 2018 D Filed: March 27, 2019
There is something about MLC which quite literally poisons the brain of the afflicted.
Some of the stuff I heard from my wife 9 to 10 years ago:
Don't go and date other women. What if I want to come back to you in the future?
I don't believe in divorce.
Actually I want a divorce. Sign this prepared form.
I ripped it up and threw it in the bin, telling her I wasn't going to lie about how long we had been separated, but told her she could come back after it had been a year (Australian law)
Transfer me some money (while living with OM - I told her to go and **** herself. I may also, in my rage, have suggested getting a job at her local brothel if she needed some quick cash)
I always come back to you, GH31
It would be great if you could merge you and OM.
OM has erectile dysfunction. Come and do to me what you're good at.
And on and on and on and on and on and on and on........
Steve85 is right. Every time I went scorched Earth, went out with buddies, didn't contact her for days or weeks, ignored her messages and, dare I say it, had fun with other women was when she'd try and keep me on the hook. Towards the end I was totally indifferent and W sensed this.
My W very definitely had an MLC but I didn't realise that until about 5-6 years after BD.
I doubt my approach would have changed either way.
Me: 46 W: 46 T: 23 M: 20 DS12 DD11 DS5
W left: 01/28/08 Discovered OM: 02/26/08 W back for 9 days: 04/08 W returned 05/21/08 EA/PA - 01/08-07/09 W's MLC 2008-2014 (realised this much later)
There is something about MLC which quite literally poisons the brain of the afflicted.
Some of the stuff I heard from my wife 9 to 10 years ago:
Don't go and date other women. What if I want to come back to you in the future?
I don't believe in divorce.
Actually I want a divorce. Sign this prepared form.
I ripped it up and threw it in the bin, telling her I wasn't going to lie about how long we had been separated, but told her she could come back after it had been a year (Australian law)
Transfer me some money (while living with OM - I told her to go and **** herself. I may also, in my rage, have suggested getting a job at her local brothel if she needed some quick cash)
I always come back to you, GH31
It would be great if you could merge you and OM.
OM has erectile dysfunction. Come and do to me what you're good at.
And on and on and on and on and on and on and on........
Steve85 is right. Every time I went scorched Earth, went out with buddies, didn't contact her for days or weeks, ignored her messages and, dare I say it, had fun with other women was when she'd try and keep me on the hook. Towards the end I was totally indifferent and W sensed this.
My W very definitely had an MLC but I didn't realise that until about 5-6 years after BD.
I doubt my approach would have changed either way.
HAHA. That part about ED is hilarious because it relates to my situation. When I was snooping before, I found that my EXWW was ordering a special cream from Amazon, on her account, that she didn't think I could see, for "numbing" purposes. So her extra super special man has ED issues.
Good luck to her on that. I never had issues and now that I dropped 100lbs I can say that I am top notch in that department. Something my EXWW will NEVER experience again.
M:16 T:21 H(me) 38 WW: 38 S11 D16 D19 Red Flags of A: March 2018 ILYBNILWY: August 4, 2018 Moved out of MBR: September 24, 2018 BD/Confirmation of A: October 31, 2018 D Filed: March 27, 2019
To say that any one variable does or doesn't affect one's sitch is pure conjecture.
Unless you could test it both ways keeping all other variables constant. Who knows?
To that point, I believe that religion has everything to do with the outcome.
Now I'm really confused.
Assertion 1: First you wrote "to say one variable does or doesn't affect the outcome is pure conjecture".
Religion is a variable, some absolutely swear by it, others (like my wife) put it in the same category as the Tooth Fairy, the Easter Bunny and leprechauns.
Assertion 2: You believe religion has everything to do with the outcome.
How can both assertions possibly be true?
Yes. I believe that it does. This is conjecture. My opinion.
M 53 W 54, M since 98 D15, D19 8/2013 discovered EA, W maintained contact with OM until 10/14 7/2/17 W said she wanted S, 7/25/17 moved out of MBR 12/17 W says moving out 5/18, W still in home.
My W actually did end up getting a job at a company that sold medication for erectile dysfunction.
It was no laughing matter for me back then.
Honestly, I cannot believe some of the stuff that went down. It makes sense now - knowing much more about MLC - but my God it was brutal.
Oh I had my share of issues when i was heavier and extremely stressed out. But it was very minimal. Still sucked. I only laugh now because thats karma for my EXWW
M:16 T:21 H(me) 38 WW: 38 S11 D16 D19 Red Flags of A: March 2018 ILYBNILWY: August 4, 2018 Moved out of MBR: September 24, 2018 BD/Confirmation of A: October 31, 2018 D Filed: March 27, 2019
Steve, you say "Every time I showed her I was perfectly fine with her leaving, and even endorsed it, she start having second thoughts."
How do you show her you're perfectly fine with leaving her? Do you tell her explicitly?
If she's unsure about leaving, should you say, "W, if you're so unsure about whether you even want to work on our marriage, then we should get a divorce"?
To be clear, I don't want a divorce. Just asking how to show her that I'm perfectly fine with her leaving, or how to endorse her idea to leave.
Action always over words. Saying your fine with it but then being mopey and weepy and sad will mean nothing. So be upbeat, pleased, confident, even happy.
She comes to you and says "I've decided I'm moving out." You: "Ok." And then go out a comedy in TV and laugh your head off.
She says: "I want a divorce." You: "Are you filing out do you want me to?" Then call a buddy up make plans and go out and have a good time.
Action. Not words.
M(53), W(54),D(19) M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017 Ring and Piecing since March 2018
When we’re having dinner together, or playing with the dogs (since we still live together), I assume I should also be “upbeat, pleased, confident, even happy”? Even though she’s thinking of leaving?
When we’re having dinner together, or playing with the dogs (since we still live together), I assume I should also be “upbeat, pleased, confident, even happy”? Even though she’s thinking of leaving?
Yes. Read and follow Sandi's rules. They are where it is at!
M(53), W(54),D(19) M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017 Ring and Piecing since March 2018
"Dropping the rope" is extremely difficult. I've found it very hard.
The lyrics of Toto's Rosanna come to mind - "Never thought that losing you could ever hurt so bad".
I'm quite a romantic so envisage everything working out, regardless of what's happened. Always have, even with past girlfriends who now I'd avoid like the plague and have zero affection for now.
My W has filed for D. I received the papers yesterday evening in the post. I have been trying to GAL as much as possible. When I last saw her on 17th Aug, she commented "so life's good for you then?" I tried to answer "yes" in a happy and upbeat way. I think she looked annoyed. She didn't press it though.
Me - 36, W - 32 No kids T - 8 yr, M - 3 yr Discovery - 14 May 2019 S - 25 May 2019 & D bomb - 29 July 2019 D & House sale final - Feb 2020
Obviously your personal religious/ spiritual beliefs come into play in this and all other aspects of your life. But, WAW's can rationalize darned near anything and everything. They will convince themselves what they are doing is good and right now matter how strong their religious convictions. It might go something like this- "God wants me to be happy. I am not happy in this marriage and that makes God sad. Since he wants me to be happy then he would approve of me getting a separation and eventually divorce. He knows I tried everything to save the M." This is why we say not to ask others to intervene. Even if it's a pastor/ priest/ etc. that the WAW previously respected, she will convince herself he is now wrong.
I wanted to quote this post because it was at the end of a page and I am afraid missed by many.
This is so true!!
The rationalizations of a WAS are limitless. Which is why reasoning with them is almost always fruitless.
M(53), W(54),D(19) M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017 Ring and Piecing since March 2018
