A familiar story with questions EIGHT

[RR17]

Original thread

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2753338&page=1

2nd thread

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2755330&page=1

3rd thread

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2758333&page=1

4th thread.

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2782479&page=1

5th
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2789507#Post2789507

6th
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2798328#Post2798328
7th
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2821567&page=1

[RR17]

Thanks neffer. And thank you Rose888, AnotherStander, DejaVu6 and FlySolo. I do appreciate your input.

These things happen and at least for me, it takes some time and feedback to understand what exactly did just happen. As for winners and losers? I'm interested in moving toward a healthy R.

It sometimes gets frustrating when although I have tried my best to paint an accurate unbiased picture of the turn of events and still my eloquence fails me.

As for any motive? Well, that would assume that it was premeditated. It was not.

As I read some of these responses I sometimes cringe. You're correct, she didn't want to have sex. I would have no way of knowing this without initiating. All signals seemed Green. Guess what? I don't like to get rejected either. Yes, it was pressure. If she had said yes, would it still seem like pressure? Back before BD, this time of the week was a favorable time to initiate. Hindsight's 20/20. Every other week I am serving at our church. This time? I did nothing except supposedly have a look, which W could never have seen across the dim room and she didn't have her glasses on anyway. Why did I say "Because I said so"? Because I didn't have a good reason. I hadn't planned this out. I was pissed about the ridicule and wanted, no I felt I deserved a more honest answer.

I will say that there was a win. The win being that we have moved on fairly rapidly. W came home last night and started telling me that the heat in her old building isn't working and rain leaks into the closet blah blah blah... I stopped what I was doing. Which was composing a response on this DB forum. lol. I gave her my full attention.
She didn't notice my haircut, but what's new? We watched an hour of classic TV and went to our respective bedrooms.

All in all, this is positive progress. In the past, W would have held onto her position (that I was ridiculous for thinking..) regardless of the fact that she had admitted it, and would have harbored resent for at least a day or two. She would have never listened to my position (that all I wanted was honest communication) without judgment. Yet now she did.

Making sausage and DBing isn't pretty but can be well worth it.

[FlySolo]

I don't like to get rejected either.

None of us do. But this entire process is one rejection after another (big and small). The little recoil from our touch, the little side step when you walk past, the looking down when you catch their eyes. And it [censored]. We are all left wondering what, if any, our worth is. I think that's where db'g, 180 and GAL comes in. It helps us deal with it in a way that is healthy. Yes, it is a consolation prize, but it is a prize none the less and sometimes that is all we have. Eventually, if it progresses towards D, hopefully we are in a place where it is all we need.

As for any motive? Well, that would assume that it was premeditated. It was not.

I know, but it was less about motive and more about expectations (hers not yours). Whenever I WFH and H was also home, he (or I) would initiate. He would drop the girls off at school, come back, and we would spend half an hour or so upstairs. Like you, we often didn't have the house on our own so we took advantage. In the months after BD, we still continued with this routine. But it was not the same. There was an atmosphere (we can still do this, but we can't look each other in the eye any other time). As the months drew on I started noticing that he wouldn't come back after dropping the girls off. He would go to the gym, have breakfast there, read the paper and then do a workout, sometimes he would also have lunch. Was he avoiding me because he thought I expected sex. Absolutely. Did it hurt like a MF. Yes it absolutely did because this man couldn't keep his hands off me right up until the day he told me that he wasn't sure he 'loved me like that'.

Hindsight's 20/20.

Hindsight's a [censored] but it does allow us to think about how we could do things better in the future. That's the advantage of this forum. You get objective feedback from people who know what you're going through but who aren't clouded with the same emotional baggage as you when looking at your sitch.

We have enough of our own emotional baggage to deal with trying to navigate our own sitch's .

Now get back on the horse (something that is said to me on this forum frequently :))

I'm glad that you can see the positives in it. It sounds like you're doing really well. One small hiccup but you pulled through it.

Good luck RR17.

[AnotherStander]

I typed this in your previous thread but when I submitted it it was already locked:

Dang, I did a really poor job of explaining. There was never any discussion of sex, yesterday. None. W asked what that look is for. I said that I thought she was going to this new church with her friend to avoid being alone here with me. That's it.

Aaaah OK I get it now.

She ridiculed that idea. Acting as if it was the most ridiculous idea and furthest from the truth.

Since you are dipping your tow into recon, it is OK to start sharing your feelings a little so I don't think you did anything wrong about telling her you felt like she was running away and why. That part is fine. I just think putting your foot down about her going was inappropriate. I think a better response would have been something like "it may sound crazy to you but you asked me what I was feeling and I expressed it to you, my feelings are valid to me no matter what you think of them and I would appreciate it if you would try to respect that." And try to say it in a "conversation" tone of voice, not angrily. Then you let her go do whatever she wants.

Once I told her that I didn't want her to go, she admitted to not wanting to be there and be possibly approached about either sex or an R discussion. The very things that I told her that I was thinking were her motivation to go.

Have you ever heard that saying "would you rather be 'right' or 'happily married'?" I get this sense that you really want to be "right" (which is a nice guy syndrome thing by the way, and one I personally am too familiar with). But what does that accomplish? Because in the same way your feelings are valid no matter what she thinks of them, SO ARE HERS. Her feelings are that if she stays then you will pressure her into sex or an R talk. Those are her feelings, whether they are factually "right" or not. And your response to those feelings should be to validate. "I hear you saying you felt you had to leave because you were afraid I would pressure you for sex, I am sorry I made you feel that way." Then let her go!

BTW, what is a "NMMNG "covert contract"?

NMMNG is shorthand for the book No More Mister Nice Guy. A covert contract is one that a person concocts in their own mind but never expresses to someone else. So in this case, you expect her to stay home but you probably never expressed that to her so now you have a covert contract. She says she wants to go to church and you give her a nasty look (passive/aggressive). She asks about the look, you have the convo, and then you tell her she can't go (controlling). So you are punishing her for not meeting the terms of a covert contract she knew nothing about. Have you read NMMNG? If not you should. Another classic example of a covert contract is an H does something for his W expecting sex out of it. A foot rub, a back rub, making a meal, whatever. She just sees it as a nice gesture. Then when he doesn't get sex in return, he gets pouty and gives her the silent treatment. So her perception is he did something nice, then suddenly gets all pouty for no reason. She asks what's wrong and he says nothing. Then maybe he yells at her for something totally unrelated, like she left a towel on the floor. Passive/aggressive. Covert contracts are relationship killers. NMMNG addresses how to make requests and be very clear about it. Ask for what you want. "How about I give you a foot rub, and then maybe later you can put on something naughty and we can have some play time." Nothing covert about that, LOL! I had a lot of NG tendencies when I was married. I've ditched most of them and am shockingly forward with my GF, I have a feeling the things we talk about would shock most NG's out there in how blatantly forward and even aggressive they are. But my GF loves it. Most women do love a man who takes control.

A note about the above to others who may be reading, "asking for what you want" and taking control of things is for a healthy relationship, or one in piecing. It's not an approach to use with a WAS though. Getting rid of NG tendencies is important but you have to save this "being forward" approach for piecing or your next relationship!

[Rose888]

You talk a lot about "honest communication," and you seem to think that your wife saying "maybe" when she really thinks "no" is not honest communication.

Do I have that correct?

If so, I think you need to adjust your expectations.

It does sound like your wife would benefit from learning to express her thoughts and feelings more directly. But I think it is unrealistic to expect her to adopt a communication style that avoids the sort of social hedging that most women (most people?) use and understand.

Sometimes the way you talk about communications gives me the impression that the only communication you think is honest is communication that fits the Asperger's stereotype. If that's a true reflection of your attitude, then you need to change, not just your wife.

[RR17]

Since you are dipping your tow into recon, it is OK to start sharing your feelings a little so I don't think you did anything wrong about telling her you felt like she was running away and why. That part is fine. I just think putting your foot down about her going was inappropriate. I think a better response would have been something like "it may sound crazy to you but you asked me what I was feeling and I expressed it to you, my feelings are valid to me no matter what you think of them and I would appreciate it if you would try to respect that." And try to say it in a "conversation" tone of voice, not angrily. Then you let her go do whatever she wants.

I absolutely agree and if the ridiculous display of absurdity hadn't happened and I was better prepared that would be my intended approach. Not blaming the W. I was caught off guard. Since venturing into recon territory I have had to catch myself. It can be tricking opening up while staying guarded.

Have you ever heard that saying "would you rather be 'right' or 'happily married'?" I get this sense that you really want to be "right" (which is a nice guy syndrome thing by the way, and one I personally am too familiar with). But what does that accomplish? Because in the same way your feelings are valid no matter what she thinks of them, SO ARE HERS. Her feelings are that if she stays then you will pressure her into sex or an R talk. Those are her feelings, whether they are factually "right" or not. And your response to those feelings should be to validate. "I hear you saying you felt you had to leave because you were afraid I would pressure you for sex, I am sorry I made you feel that way." Then let her go!

Quote
BTW, what is a "NMMNG "covert contract"?


NMMNG is shorthand for the book No More Mister Nice Guy. A covert contract is one that a person concocts in their own mind but never expresses to someone else. So in this case, you expect her to stay home but you probably never expressed that to her so now you have a covert contract. She says she wants to go to church and you give her a nasty look (passive/aggressive). She asks about the look, you have the convo, and then you tell her she can't go (controlling). So you are punishing her for not meeting the terms of a covert contract she knew nothing about. Have you read NMMNG? If not you should. Another classic example of a covert contract is an H does something for his W expecting sex out of it. A foot rub, a back rub, making a meal, whatever. She just sees it as a nice gesture. Then when he doesn't get sex in return, he gets pouty and gives her the silent treatment. So her perception is he did something nice, then suddenly gets all pouty for no reason. She asks what's wrong and he says nothing. Then maybe he yells at her for something totally unrelated, like she left a towel on the floor. Passive/aggressive. Covert contracts are relationship killers. NMMNG addresses how to make requests and be very clear about it. Ask for what you want. "How about I give you a foot rub, and then maybe later you can put on something naughty and we can have some play time." Nothing covert about that, LOL! I had a lot of NG tendencies when I was married. I've ditched most of them and am shockingly forward with my GF, I have a feeling the things we talk about would shock most NG's out there in how blatantly forward and even aggressive they are. But my GF loves it. Most women do love a man who takes control.

I have not dug into this NGS which I have believed to be a nice term for Beta Male. Perhaps I'm wrong. lol
I just never thought it applied. Although I dabbled in NGS upon initial BD as many here do. I retrieved my testicles.

I do have extensive experience in personality testing and I have always been what is called a "High Justice".
I have damaged a few relationships in an attempt to be right. It has also served me well. So you are correct. I can see how needing to be right could be beta behavior. I simply want to see justice. Yea I know, blame my dad.

One thing that I am having trouble communicating here is that I really didn't care if she left. Right or wrong, and I see it was wrong, I said what I said because I was projecting my anger at her because of the ridicule. I knew that she was leaving because she expected some type of pressure. Subconsciously I knew that if provoked she would tell the truth. She did. I spend years ignoring this pisspoor communication and look where it got me.

BTW, "thoughts" and "Feelings" are often confused in this forum. A thought is that I believe you are running from anticipated pressure. A feeling is sad, happy, confused etc.

Any "covert contracts" were perceived. My contracts are expressed. lol. To me, that is what I have called healthy adult communication. Say what you mean or want, and no mind reading.

You are right one shouldn't have to validate ones feeling. Remember I knew her thought and feelings. I Didn't judge them. I simply wanted her to admit them. This was wrong.

Thanks, AnotherStander, this is good advice.

[RR17]

You talk a lot about "honest communication," and you seem to think that your wife saying "maybe" when she really thinks "no" is not honest communication.

Do I have that correct?

If so, I think you need to adjust your expectations.

It does sound like your wife would benefit from learning to express her thoughts and feelings more directly. But I think it is unrealistic to expect her to adopt a communication style that avoids the sort of social hedging that most women (most people?) use and understand.

Sometimes the way you talk about communications gives me the impression that the only communication you think is honest is communication that fits the Asperger's stereotype. If that's a true reflection of your attitude, then you need to change, not just your wife.

Did you get all that from my stories?

Okay, what do I do with that? Get checked for Asperger's?

[Rose888]

You talk a lot about "honest communication," and you seem to think that your wife saying "maybe" when she really thinks "no" is not honest communication.

Do I have that correct?

If so, I think you need to adjust your expectations.

It does sound like your wife would benefit from learning to express her thoughts and feelings more directly. But I think it is unrealistic to expect her to adopt a communication style that avoids the sort of social hedging that most women (most people?) use and understand.

Sometimes the way you talk about communications gives me the impression that the only communication you think is honest is communication that fits the Asperger's stereotype. If that's a true reflection of your attitude, then you need to change, not just your wife.

Did you get all that from my stories?

Okay, what do I do with that? Get checked for Asperger's?

Yes, what I wrote is what I see when I read your posts here. I have no idea if what I see matches reality, because we see only a tiny sliver of life here on the boards, and always from the view of the poster.

But if you think I might have a point, then you might want to start by reading books about different communication styles, so you can broaden your empathy and increase your flexibility in this area.

You've mentioned communication issues with your daughter before, so improving your communication skills in general might be helpful.

[RR17]

Interesting.
In my 54 years, I have never heard that I may have autism spectrum disorder before. Effective communication is how I make a living. I've dealt with thousands of negotiations over 25+ years relying on subtle nuances to effectively serve my clients. My wife, on the other hand, has heard that she struggles to express herself, especially in regards to any negative news.
To my memory, the only description involving my daughters that I recall sharing was between W and Ds and was used to illustrate this point. I mean I have had the typical parent/teenage challenges but nothing out of the norm. IMO

Honest communication seems to be a recurring theme in most all DB threads, no? If it weren't I don't think we would read about so many LBSs shocked at BD.

I have my faults but to think that my description of my W's vague none committed answers has allowed you to reach this diagnosis seems a bit overreaching. Rose, do you have training in this area?

[Rose888]

My professional background is in communication. I never said you had autism spectrum disorder, only that you seem to strongly prefer the sort of blunt, brutally honest communication stereotypically associated with ASD.

I suggested you learn about communication styles, not that you get tested.

The incident with your daughter that stands out is when she asked for a turtle and you gave her a tank of fish and then were mad when she gave the fish away. You said a turtle and fish were similar pets and seemed unable to understand how others could view that differently. I know it's a sore spot, so I avoided mentioning it specifically at first.

Like I said, I only have a tiny sliver of insight into your life, based on what you write. It sounds like my impression is off base, as I recognized it might be.

[RR17]

My understanding is that the catch-all phrase "autism spectrum disorder" is the now preferred term for Asbergers, but I am no expert.

[AnotherStander]

RR17, you come off as extremely hard-headed and unwilling to listen to advice. Even here, you insist on being "right" and explaining to everyone else why you are. Even when you are not. That's no big deal here where none of us know you and can simply quit posting on your thread if we get tired of the attitude. But if you're really interested in saving your M then you need to wake up and own the fact that you are righteous, holier-than-thou, and combative. The sooner you work on this the better your chances of salvaging your M.

[RR17]

Wow!

Where am I wrong, where I didn't admit it?

Since I'm providing the info, is it possible that perhaps I didn't present an accurate picture? Should I accept judgment based on what I believe to be a misunderstanding due to my part?

[RR17]

I will try to use more emojis. There was no combative malice intended.

[Rose888]

My understanding is that the catch-all phrase "autism spectrum disorder" is the now preferred term for Asbergers, but I am no expert.

I'm not disagreeing with you about terms. I switched to using ASD when I saw that you were familiar with the term, as I agree it is now the preferred term.

I am saying, I did not say you were on the autism spectrum and I did not say you had Asperger's.

I said you seem to prefer a very rigid style of communication that is stereotypically associated with Asperger's (aka autism spectrum disorder).

Your mention of negotiation gave me another way to express my thought without introducing confusion about diagnosis.

When you share these exchanges and talk about communication, I get the impression that you think personal communication should be as precise and unambiguous as a legal contract.

I don't know if it's true, but that's how it appears to me.

It seems rigid, and cold, and exhausting, and not anything that would make me want to communicate hard things. And since your wife apparently has a longstanding difficulty expressing hard things, she is, I imagine, going to find it even harder to want to share when faced with such a rigid partner.

No diagnosis, just a suggestion that you adjust your definition of honest communication to include things that are implied but not stated baldly, and that you don't back your wife into a corner verbally unless getting the complete truth is worth the damage.

[Grace21]

[quote=RR17] I said you seem to prefer a very rigid style of communication that is stereotypically associated with Asperger's (aka autism spectrum disorder.

Your mention of negotiation gave me another way to express my thought without introducing confusion about diagnosis.

When you share these exchanges and talk about communication, I get the impression that you think personal communication should be as precise and unambiguous as a legal contract.

I don't know if it's true, but that's how it appears to me.

I have to admit, I read your first comment about Asperger's as a comment about whether or not the OP HAD Asperger's. Perhaps just a description, such as you have here, would have sufficed. My son has Asperger's. "Autism Spectrum" is not an accurate substitution in my opinion. He is opinionated, but not so rigid. And, there is nothing sterotypical of an Aspie. Some people would never know my kid has it. Some have very profound disabilities with it. I would just caution using a diagnosis term to describe a behavior.

Sorry to hijack the original intent of the post.

[Rose888]

[quote=RR17] I said you seem to prefer a very rigid style of communication that is stereotypically associated with Asperger's (aka autism spectrum disorder.

Your mention of negotiation gave me another way to express my thought without introducing confusion about diagnosis.

When you share these exchanges and talk about communication, I get the impression that you think personal communication should be as precise and unambiguous as a legal contract.

I don't know if it's true, but that's how it appears to me.

I have to admit, I read your first comment about Asperger's as a comment about whether or not the OP HAD Asperger's. Perhaps just a description, such as you have here, would have sufficed. My son has Asperger's. "Autism Spectrum" is not an accurate substitution in my opinion. He is opinionated, but not so rigid. And, there is nothing sterotypical of an Aspie. Some people would never know my kid has it. Some have very profound disabilities with it. I would just caution using a diagnosis term to describe a behavior.

Sorry to hijack the original intent of the post.

You're right, Grace, my words were poorly chosen, and I apologize for any offense.

[RR17]

Grace you took the words right out of my mouth. No apology needed.

Rose, I see you edited your initial post, tempering it a bit. I assume for clarification.

I don't know why you would reference a serious disorder like this. I'm going to default to the idea that it was in an effort to be helpful. Thank you.

Calling my style a "very rigid style of communication" and "It seems rigid, and cold, and exhausting," seems exaggerated and very judgmental.
Especially since we have never spoken.

I may be succinct in my descriptions and recommendations, but that is intentional. It is an effort to avoid any confusions. (apparently, I sometimes still get misinterpreted). But written communication like this forum makes it difficult to express emotional nuances. Emojis help. Still, the reader naturally adds there own cognitive bias and things can come across the wrong way. A description of an event may be summarized and lose its cadence and clarity.
It is best to question what may seem to be a harsh claim before rushing to judgment.

Especially since the basis of this forum is to help each other.

[Rose888]

I edited my post within seconds of sending it. You quoted it in your reply, so you can see that the post as it now stands is the same text you responded to.

And I did question. I said (paraphrasing) that it seems you feel when your wife uses words like "maybe" and " we'll see" that that is not honest communication.

And then I asked if I was understanding your position correctly. I put it on its own line, so it would stand out and be easy to see.

You never responded to it.

In the interest of time in this asynchronous communication method, I then shared my impressions based on the thing I asked about being true, but, I used words like "if" and "might" to acknowledge that my perception might not fit your reality.

And I'm not rushing to judgement. My impressions (which I have always acknowledged might be wrong) are based on over a year of reading your posts.

Referring to Asperger's was a horrible mistake, and I am sincerely sorry and won't do it again.

But I stand by my replacement description that you find exaggerated. That accurately reflects my view, based on reading your posts describing your communication.

If you answer my question from the original post, that might give me new information that changes my view, but I sense this particular exchange is probably winding down.

[RR17]

Sorry for the misunderstand. Your questions seemed rhetorical as you jumped immediately to judgment. I have reread them and it doesn't appear you were seeking understanding as much as trying to prove a point. Could be my bias.

I am telling you now. I don't believe that my communication is "rigid, and cold, and exhausting". I don't believe that I am on the "spectrum". When I first read your response it appeared to me that you were suggesting I get tested. I asked and you said "yes". Only now do I see where your answer may have applied to my rhetorical question of did you reach the conclusion based on my stories. (of course you did how else would you?) You see, clear succinct communications has its advantages.

When you share these exchanges and talk about communication, I get the impression that you think personal communication should be as precise and unambiguous as a legal contract.

I think this is an exaggeration. If I don't understand the meaning behind her "Maybe" or "We'll see" etc. Changing my attitude or reading about communication styles isn't going to help me better understand.
BTW, When I used the above example, it was a way that she communicates to my Ds. Yes, I understand the social hedging you described. I also understand it's overuse and when it becomes a problem.
When communicating with me I don't accept these answers on questions of importance. I ask again and try to find out if she really hasn't formed an opinion or if the answer is negative. I try to do it in a kind and understanding manner.

If you answer my question from the original post, that might give me new information that changes my view, but I sense this particular exchange is probably winding down.

Here is an example. Do you want me to really answer this question? I don't think so because it isn't even worded as a question. It seems rhetorical to me. Then you step away be saying that the subject is winding down. Correct?
What do I do with this?

I really do not believe that I am this rigid miserable monster that you describe. I try to express myself here as clearly as possible to avoid misunderstanding. I realize emotions are elevated and nerves are raw. This includes my nerves on occasion. This non-conversational, succinct style is my attempt to avoid miscommunication. It is not how I speak to my W or kids.

[Rose888]

So, I answered a question that you intended to be a rhetorical question, and that answer introduced confusion.

You interpreted my literal question as rhetorical and thought I was jumping to conclusions.

As for what you do with my comments--whatever you want.

You disagree with my opinion.

That's fine.

I am a random stranger on the Internet. There is no penalty for completely ignoring any or all of my comments.

I posted what I saw in your situation for the same reason we post anything here--to give posters a view they might not be seeing in the hopes that it's helpful, even if hard to hear.

But posters are always free to reject the view that's offered, based on what they know of their situation.

[RR17]

Well, I hope I answered any of you serious questions. Thanks for your input.

[Rose888]

Well, I hope I answered any of you serious questions. Thanks for your input.

You didn't, but I think that's because you don't believe me when I say it was a serious question.

[Rose888]

Well, I hope I answered any of you serious questions. Thanks for your input.

You didn't, but I think that's because you don't believe me when I say it was a serious question.

Actually, I did find a partial answer to my question. Thank you.

[RR17]

Rose, What are you talking about? Which question is a serious question that I didn't answer? Help me understand.

[RR17]

So, no real updates. Today is my Birthday. Wife asked if I wanted to go out tonight or another night. D19 is home for Thanksgiving. Wife is sleeping on the couch.

No expectations = no disapointments

It took a while to get here, and I am good with it.

[LoneWlf]

Happy Birthday RR- stay patient -stay positive!

[Davide]

Happy Birthday RR!

Do something fun for yourself!

[neffer]

Happy birthday man. Why not going out for dinner or something like that?

My best wishes for you and your family.

Happy birthday RR!

[AnotherStander]

Happy Birthday RR!!

[RR17]

Thanks all. I've done some light work this morning. Now off to get a cigar.

We are all going to dinner. Italian, I think. Debated about grill ribeyes but it requires too much hassle on my part.

[RR17]

Quick update:

Had one of my more enjoyable Thanksgivings at In-Laws. Ate too much. Especially pie. Stayed away from my caustic SIL and out of the normal, she hugged me upon arrival. I heard W mentioning me a few times in a favorable way. So these are good things. All is not perfect but, much improved.

For contrast: I remember years where I waited in the car to leave. I have always loved my MIL and FIL. But Ws siblings always presented a challenge. Lots of people in a small house.

Anyway, I'm sure many of you are facing increased challenges with the Holiday season. I hope you will take some time and mentally and emotionally prepare.

*Lower expectations
*Watch alcohol intake. Don't increase your odds of your real feeling slipping out. lol
*Let others start the discussions. If you can't just listen and validate, politely excuse yourself from the conversation.

Even though this is an emotionally difficult time of year for so many, rise above your sitch and remember it is also a tremendous opportunity to 180. WW and WH will be watching. Take advantage. And remember if you don't attract them back, you won't be able to decide if you even want them.

Take care and God bless.

[RR17]

Confessing my vulnerability here today.

So I wake up in the wee hours with this suspicion. Now I haven't had these type feelings in a very long time. 6 months or more?

Well, a couple of things enter my mind:
Why now? Is this suspicion justifiable or irrational? Is it helpful? H&ll no! What do I do with it? Unless I plan to act on it, get rid of it. Right?

So I reached the conclusion that while watching TV last night W sat in a different spot. Bare with me here. She seemed intrigued by whatever she was reading. She also demonstrated a few other "out of the norm" behaviors yesterday. Nothing that screams OM just out of the norm. W was situated where I could never see what she was reading. In an effort to circumvent any suspicions I casually asked "what's you reading?" without a pause or defensive reaction, she said oh just about this Keto Diet. I accepted the response and for the time settled my mind.
You see, years later I am still subject to triggers (a word I hate, BTW). Of course, I am now in better control with what I do with it.
So using skills I have learned through Mindful meditation I am able to push these thoughts out of my head and return to sleep. I no longer feel victim to my thoughts.

So upon waking for the day and after coffee I conduct a brief autopsy of the night's events. I conclude that the suspicion is not rational. That I am still subject to belated hunchs. That I have progressed to the point where I will use my rational mind and not my emotional mind to stay the course. I had considered asking W where this is all going. Yea, bad RR18.

[neffer]

Well, continuing with the rational autopsy of events:

W 1 - RR 0

Yesssssss



Patience man!

[RR17]

In my GAL, 180, self-exploration journey, I have begun exploring my early childhood relationships and how they affect me now as well as my MR and other adult Rs. All in an effort to better understand and correct my faults. Besides we don't all suffer from NGS.

Well, the forces that be have led me to learn about Adult Children of Narcissistic Parents. Heady stuff indeed.

We all show tendencies for different behaviors at different times and it is easy to read or hear a certain prognosis and think, "that sounds like me". Much like reading a horoscope, generalizations about the human condition are easily applied. Seems we are all more alike than we are different, as like we tend to believe. Hence the similarities in all our stitches.

Anyway, I will say that I have heard some insightful stuff.
As those that read here may remember my father died a year ago this month. I think I am gaining an understanding about our relationship and negative behaviors that I have brought to my MR. There is even some insight into why W was attracted to me in the first place. Why I feel the need to control many situations and motivations about my parenting style. At times it can get a bit scary and I have to step away from the book. In fact, the desire to dissect myself, my W and other people may very well stem from my father-son dynamic.

So I am posting this to both document my journey and suggest to anyone else here that thinks it may apply, that it may be worth a look. Introspection can be a good way to take one's mind off MR sitch and become a more balanced person.

[SteveLW]

RR, good stuff. Glad to see you continue on your self-discovery journey.

Hang in there man, we are all pulling for a positive outcome for you, no matter what happens in your sitch.

[neffer]

Introspection can be a good way to take one's mind off MR sitch and become a more balanced person.

It does help a lot RR. There are all kind of patterns that we are exposed to during our childhoods. They predetermine our own behavior on adult stages. Most of MLCs are fueled by those root flaws. It´s hard to face our inner fears, but we must do that sooner or later. I was one of those MLCs zombies, still facing fears. Willingness and commitment. Couldn't be easier!...

[sandi2]

Well...…..I wrote a whooper, and just as I was going to send it.....I must have hit the wrong key.

I will have wait till tomorrow and try again.

[RR17]

Such a tease.

[sandi2]

Four years ago I caught her in an EA. I was devastated and pitiful. My discovery was a traumatic episode and I let everyone know, wife, couples counselor, individual counselor. I caught her two more times during the next year. During all this counseling, she finally stopped and things got better. Several apologies etc. Several of the problems that were discovered were never really worked out. Communication on her part. Her personal baggage etc. I had my share too.

What were several of the problems, and why didn't they get worked out?

Was OM a co-worker, in her social circles, or long distance? Did he encouraging the EA? Did she have supporters who were enabling her in the EA? Is she still friends with them?

I assume by your quote above that the two of you went to MC? Did she make the choice to stop attending? Could you tell if she went through a period of "withdrawals"?

Was the subject of a transparency plan discussed? If so, what was her attitude about it?

When you came to the board, it was after she gave you a bomb drop of not being happy and wanting out of the MR. Overnight she apparently started being "nicer" to you. I read back through all your threads and your most common summation about her was that she was showing more respect and consideration. Can you be a little more specific?

I'll tell you upfront that I am very suspicious of WW's, especially when they are not faced with the reality or consequences of their decisions. I can't really see where she experienced loss, due to her EA. I am especially suspicious whenever a WW shows "sudden" change.....for no apparent reason. According to your posts, she turned on her nice button and has been nice and considerate since the bomb drop and separating the sleeping arrangements...…..as her own request.

I'll try to describe what I see, and I very well may stand completely alone here. You, like many newcomers, were somewhat confused by the various sources of advice/information you were receiving. Makes sense to me. In your need to believe your MR is improving, I'm concerned that you see some things the way you want to believe are happening. I also pick up on the way you state some things describing her...…...like, she "hints" or "indicates" or almost..….but there is nothing solid, so you continue feeling as if you are playing some type of guessing game about where the MR actually stands. Last night I had copied and pasted several quotes, but I'm not going back through all those threads again.

I see some LBH's who try to implement the LRT or beyond the LRT for a few days, and eventually the lines become blurred to them and they are trying to show the WW what an improved H he can be. I say the lines become blurred, b/c he starts spending more time with her, has sex with her, and talks way too much to her. He kind of loses sight that the issues have not been worked through or resolved, there has been no obvious effort from the WW to do whatever is necessary to help bring her H's healing and to be able to trust her again, she has not humbly repented of her affair, etc. They seem to find some level of normalcy in their situation, and go on with life. That's what you did after couples counseling stopped, right?

For an unrepented WW, this type of scenario works okay for her, but not for the MR. She still gets the benefit from living under the same roof with her H, but is not required to make amends. If she's being nice and considerate, it's b/c she has friend-zoned him. Bing friend-zoned does not work favorably for the MR, IMHO, when the WW has not told the H that her decision is to stay in the M. At best, they will continue to live like roommates. The resentment, hurt, mistrust, etc. will go unresolved. They simply try to create a new normal. After living in limbo for years, the H becomes more slack in his endeavors, b/c he's convinced himself they have slid over into reconciliation without her realizing it, or doing the work. I don't think the WW accidently or rots her way into having a wonderful MR. I think many LBS's let their WS come back too easily.....and your story appears to be a prime example. She lost respect for you before the A, and she never got it back. That's why she doesn't want to sleep with you. The lack of admiration has killed the attraction. Without more information, I suspect she was guilted back from her A. As you say, they get better at covering up.

RR, I want you to know that I am not unsympathetic about your situation, and I am not giving intentional 2x4's. I am honored that you sought me out to ask questions. With that said, knowing how much work the WW has to do on herself and on the MR, I can't believe she is going to accidently slip into a honest reconciliation with her H. That's kind of comparable to accidently becoming a Christian, the way I see it. I feel you are trying to find a loophole for her, and convince yourself things are progressing forward. Don't confuse normalizing with progression.

I'll refer back to my experience. When the poop really hit the fan, I stayed home from work the next day. I was a mess, crying, angry, etc. I don't remember much of what was said, but there was no move toward reconciliation on my part! I just rocked things along, and went deeper underground with my A activity. I can't remember how long this lasted before my adult child busted my neat little plan to leave the home/marriage and eventually introduce OM to my family. I had planned to make my H out to be the bad guy, so my family would be receptive to OM. I was carefully (I thought) setting the stage and preparing my kids by telling them their dad and I were having problems. That's when my daughter busted me. She had read our messages and knew most everything about the A. That's when my fantasy castle started crashing. I won't get off into all of that, but it was a pivotal moment for me.

I had to make a conscious decision, and with the help I received from my mentors, I decided to do the right thing, which was end my A and stay in the M. I approached my H, with my decision, asked if he would attend MC (he wouldn't), but anyway we did try to use a book as guidance. He wanted me to apologize. I said I was sorry, but the heart-felt apology came later after I had done some deep work on my heart. I went through withdrawals, used a transparency plan, sought pro-marriage support, learned what I could about affairs, healing after an A, experiencing the fallout, etc. I purposely stopped doing overt action that showed him disrespect. It took a little time before I started feeling the admiration, but at least, I started conducting myself with respectful behavior when interacting with him......and when not interacting with him. I watched my mouth, my attitude, etc.

There was some space between the point where I told my H I had decided to remain in the M, and when I actually dealt with the negative issues in my heart. Do you follow what I'm saying? Once I finally let go of all the resentment I had held toward my H, and I could forgive him for the stuff in the past......then true remorseful feelings came. For the first time, I felt humbled and unworthy of his forgiveness and trust. I went to my H with my heart breaking over the damage I had done to him. No longer was I ready to justify my reasons for engaging in an A. I no longer blamed my H, but took full responsibility. After that night, the loving feelings for my H begin to return. Not all at one time, and not immediately.

Perhaps you see no difference in my experience and what you are seeing in your W, IDK. My point is that she needs to make a conscious decision about the MR. As long as she continues to sleep in a separate bed, and you can't recall a moment in time where she said she wants to stay in the M and work on things...….I think there is room for a lot of doubt that she considers you to be reconciling. As I've said, I felt very fortunate to have found the board when I was still involved in the A. WW's who don't seek help are very likely to friendzone the H and cover up as much as possible, by wearing the "Nice" mask.

We have discussed doing the right thing from the "will", even though the emotions are not felt. The emotions follow the right actions, in time, if there are no ulterior motives, secret agendas, negative mindset, etc. As Believers in God, we should have a good idea of what it means to "get our heart right" with Him. The WW not only has to get her heart right with God, but she has to get it right toward her H (as I understand the Bible). Remember the rebellion? It becomes a two-fold situation when she rebels. She can start by doing what she knows is right, and pray, get counseling or whatever to help her with the negative feelings. She doesn't have to be religious, btw, but like Steve mentioned, I don't how people make it without their faith in God.

You asked me if I thought every WW had to take the same order of steps that I took. I won't go as far as to say everyone has to follow the same pattern. However, I strongly believe you must see some areas line up and match, in order to know you've got a W who has really turned her direction and she's serious about wanting to do what it takes for you to trust her again, and repair the M. Her actions, talk, and attitude will pretty much tell the story. If they don't positively match...….then she still has work to do.

What I think you were really seeking, when you asked me that question, was a loophole. You were hoping I would say that you two are slowly growing into a reconciliation. I don't think that really happens with waywards. B/c you are rug sweeping. That's part of her problem, rug sweeping. She doesn't want to talk about her A and how she's hurt you. She wants to bypass all of that, b/c it makes her feel uncomfortable. Do I think she is a WW or WAW? I think she is wayward, b/c according to your post, neither of you dealt with the preexisting issues before, during, or after her A. It was swept under the rug. You were in a SSM, and then she wants to split. That usually suggests she already had a problem respecting you as a man and was not attracted. I suspect it carried over into the bedroom, b/c she has to admire/respect you in order to desire you. Have you read how men show male dominance in the MR?

The fact that she told you she would leave when school ended back last spring, and she never moved out...…...does not mean she is having second thoughts about the M. She might, but it is not a "sign".

You really must stop "temp checking" her. WW's temp check their H, which is nothing more than sheer manipulation on part. You should be above that method and have substantial guidelines for which you base your actions, rather than going on her mood/feelings at the time. Don't you know that she is aware of what you're planning for Sundays when it's just the two of you in the house? FWIW, it was not you "standing up" to your WW. It was you making a bad call, and getting shot down.

Whenever you compromise, like you've been compromising with her, then the lines get blurred and you stay confused and make excuses for her.

She wanted a separation and you gave her a H who is trying to win her back. It's not working, so you try this or that to get a certain desired result, and that doesn't work either. So, you try to convince yourself that she is nicer, considerate, and more respectful than you've seen in a decade. Whenever you make a comment about what she's doing, you repeat how she's nice, considerate, more respectful. However, you haven't explained how she's more respectful. You've also told how she will look sad after you've said something. FWIW, that doesn't mean she feels remorse. You may be hitting close to a nerve, or she may be manipulating the entire show. You have not described how things were before the EA, so we don't have a lot to compare now with then.

So, yeah, living under the same roof......and not even knowing if the status is IHS or not...….is very, very tough. I don't want to break your heart, RR, but unless you give me more specifics...….I don't think you are reconciling without her aware. ((hugs))

[RR17]

First, I want to thank you so much for taking the time to read back through my many threads and for typing this twice. I really do appreciate it. I have read it several times and my intention is to respond in a way that is both thought out and grateful.

RR, I want you to know that I am not unsympathetic about your situation, and I am not giving intentional 2x4's. I am honored that you sought me out to ask questions. With that said, knowing how much work the WW has to do on herself and on the MR, I can't believe she is going to accidently slip into a honest reconciliation with her H. That's kind of comparable to accidently becoming a Christian, the way I see it. I feel you are trying to find a loophole for her, and convince yourself things are progressing forward. Don't confuse normalizing with progression.

Honestly Sandi, I don't see any 2X4s in your posts. Nothing to knock me over. Nothing upsetting. But thanks for showing the sensitivity. Many of your concerns have been concerns of mine over these many months. I have always been aware and have had buy-in to your list on what is required for proper reconciliation. It just made sense to me. I am convinced that that was why I was here and a BD#2. Those necessary steps or conditions had never been met the first go round.

As for a loophole? I am not trying to find any for her. I have asked here many times if R has to start with an event. Particularly remorse. It was suggested here that all situations are different, actions speak louder than words and it seemed like we were dipping our toes. I just knew I was in Limbo. Blurry messages. I have been open to the idea that we were entering R, but I really don't feel like I manufactured it. Point is, I don't need to be in reconciliation. What I desire is just honest communication. And I an idea of what I need to do.

What were several of the problems, and why didn't they get worked out?

Remember that this was 2013 and pre-DB #1. IMO, as stated, her problems were mostly communication. She was never vocal about her wants or need and what she didn't like. She built up animosity based on not having a voice. But I'm going to focus on my faults.

I got used to this dynamic and took advantage of it. I got beat up by the recession and lost my mojo and confidence. I felt that I was competing for Ws love and attention with my 2 Ds. I became an unagreeable grouch. I was put-out whenever anything was required from me. I went from being the center of this MR to the antagonist in a family. I'm sure there is more.

Why didn't they get worked out? Like many couples, once the W conceded in MC and NC, we slipped into a new normal without addressing mostly her problems. Communications etc. As for me? Well, like many Hs here, I was shocked into getting my act together. I remember Aug. 24th 2013 having an epiphany and seeing all this wrong I was guilty of and 180ing on much of it almost instantly. The change has lasted for the most part. W say this and agreed. Sometimes saying it was late.

Things were better but I believe that one thing I never figured out was how to make W feel like she was priority #1. Not in a bata way, but you get the picture. That and not having the tools here and requiring proper reconciliation.

Was OM a co-worker, in her social circles, or long distance? Did he encouraging the EA? Did she have supporters who were enabling her in the EA? Is she still friends with them?

OM was in the next state, an old flame from pre-RR17. W was looking and OM contacted her on social media. An interesting thing is they had a couple of failed attempts to unite. I believe that both sabotaged these events. Something about being attracted to unavailable people.
There was one supporter and she is out of the picture now. I have mentioned her in my threads.

I assume by your quote above that the two of you went to MC? Did she make the choice to stop attending? Could you tell if she went through a period of "withdrawals"?

Was the subject of a transparency plan discussed? If so, what was her attitude about it?

She did go through withdrawals. As mentioned I caught her in contact 2 more times. I believe this was part of the process. I wrote about finding a journal entry where admitting struggling with NC and how she didn't want to even think about OM again. At the time, I was struggling with my own healing and had no sypathy for these withdrawals.
Yes, there was a transparency plan. She agreed and then reneged on some. Now, she seems to take steps to demonstrate transparency.

When you came to the board, it was after she gave you a bomb drop of not being happy and wanting out of the MR. Overnight she apparently started being "nicer" to you. I read back through all your threads and your most common summation about her was that she was showing more respect and consideration. Can you be a little more specific?

Yes. It was years later and she BD she wanted an S. She accused me of only wanting her for sex and thought I might move out so she could decide if D was in the cards.
This is when I found this place and DR and instituted the LRT. I refused to move out and did some other manipulative things like pushing to go forward with a D and going dark. This along with DB techniques seemed to be the reason she was much nicer. The removal of any pressure factored in. Sandi2 I was a much different LBS the second time around. No more bata blubbering or attempts to convince etc.
The respect and consideration have continued and increased. I believe it is due to my work and the tools here.

I see some LBH's who try to implement the LRT or beyond the LRT for a few days, and eventually the lines become blurred to them and they are trying to show the WW what an improved H he can be. I say the lines become blurred, b/c he starts spending more time with her, has sex with her, and talks way too much to her. He kind of loses sight that the issues have not been worked through or resolved, there has been no obvious effort from the WW to do whatever is necessary to help bring her H's healing and to be able to trust her again, she has not humbly repented of her affair, etc. They seem to find some level of normalcy in their situation, and go on with life. That's what you did after couples counseling stopped, right?

Sort of. Remember MC was upon DB #1. I initiated MC because I was Fixing my MR.(sarcastic) W ended it because IMO it exposed too much of her faults She was still speaking to this creep and asI think I have heard you say, it should really be called Divorce Counseling. In IC I was in pain and I let it fly. So yes, after that things got artificially better, new normal until BD#2.
Upon BD #2 I went to IC but based on my newly discovered DB practices, I knew better than you try to force MC on W. She didn't want to go and all this counseling gets expense. On BD#1, we had both IC, MC and a D in IC every week.
Upon BD#2 I didn't spend more time with her. I spent less. I was GAL and reading here and had my testicles. The respect and consideration were different. I attribute this to this group and MWD's books and my application. My whole approach on BD#2 was a 180 from BD#1. I wasn't pursuing or trying to fix, I was moving away and I wasn't in distress.

I will say that during one of my monologues post DB#2,(yes I know I wasn't supposed to be having R talks, it was a slip) during my pontification W broke down and was sobbing like I had never seen during all this crap. I asked what was the reason and W said she felt so bad about what she had put me through during A. It seemed genuine. During that time I had a couple of panic attacks and I was a mess. At that time happened W was still involved it wasn't a priority of her's but now she seemed remorseful. Sandi, my nature is a tendency to see the problem and miss the benefits, so I processed this as remorse for the pain but not the A. I don't know what this means, but I tell you so you might better see that I'm not an overly rosy glasses kind of guy. Being fooled scares me more than heading to divorce. I tell you these things knowing I may still be misreading. I tell you so that you might better understand and not to "sell" you on her changes.

For an unrepented WW, this type of scenario works okay for her, but not for the MR. She still gets the benefit from living under the same roof with her H, but is not required to make amends. If she's being nice and considerate, it's b/c she has friend-zoned him. Bing friend-zoned does not work favorably for the MR, IMHO, when the WW has not told the H that her decision is to stay in the M. At best, they will continue to live like roommates. The resentment, hurt, mistrust, etc. will go unresolved. They simply try to create a new normal. After living in limbo for years, the H becomes more slack in his endeavors, b/c he's convinced himself they have slid over into reconciliation without her realizing it, or doing the work. I don't think the WW accidently or rots her way into having a wonderful MR. I think many LBS's let their WS come back too easily.....and your story appears to be a prime example. She lost respect for you before the A, and she never got it back. That's why she doesn't want to sleep with you. The lack of admiration has killed the attraction. Without more information, I suspect she was guilted back from her A. As you say, they get better at covering up.

Yes, I have suspected this very scenario until I was repeatedly reminded that "actions speak louder than words" I hope other LBS read this and avoid this. I have suspected this is why the no intimacy. I wouldn't say I have become more slack, but have intentionally moved closer in an attempt to initiate intimacy, both sexual and none. I have felt like I am in the Friend-Zone for many months. We spend a lot of extra time together. I will say I have maintained a healthy autonomy that didn't ever exist before. I have encouraged her to do the same. During this year she has expanded a social circle that once consisted mostly of coworkers to Bible study and Tennis friends. I can see where this has taken a tremendous pressure off of me and the MR. We watch movies and she shares stories about her friends and I limit my stories. All in good DB fashion. One thing that has confused my thinking has been that W and I started out as friends 23 years ago. By my choice. So getting back this stage seems like a progress. I believe it in no way bypasses the need for proper R. Do I like this Friend-Zone? No, although it beats a contentious IHS, it leads to the Blurred Lines. I have prayed for months for a softening of W heart and signs of what I should be doing. From this group, I have been told to be patient and to embrace our time together.

As for what is currently in W's heart? I have no idea.
I suspect that she has been "willing" her way back. Much more after I started DBing. The increase in respect and consideration is consistent and increasing. Yes, sometimes she gets miffed at something but when she makes a decision regarding the Ds, she consults me. When we have a disagreement where she used to hold a nonverbal grudge for a couple days, she seems to move on much more quickly. She doesn't default to the idea that I am blaming her for stuff that goes wrong. I used to feel like when my feelings were taken into consideration it was out of pressure from me. Out of sight out of mind. It now seems to be intentional and none coerced. The real only fights since May have been when I tried to initiate sex and got shot down. Besides these rejections signaled that I was totally misreading the blurred signals (temp taking) they were the only times that she didn't handle something without regard to my feelings. Not because she shot me down but in the insensitivity in how she did it.

Do I think she is WW or WAW? I know that she was W upon BD#1, I suspect that she has been WAW since BD#2. I'm not sure because I don't know what is in her heart. I have focused on my stuff to change which I believed it really didn't matter because my part didn't change.

She wanted a separation and you gave her a H who is trying to win her back. It's not working, so you try this or that to get a certain desired result, and that doesn't work either. So, you try to convince yourself that she is nicer, considerate, and more respectful than you've seen in a decade. Whenever you make a comment about what she's doing, you repeat how she's nice, considerate, more respectful. However, you haven't explained how she's more respectful. You've also told how she will look sad after you've said something. FWIW, that doesn't mean she feels remorse. You may be hitting close to a nerve, or she may be manipulating the entire show. You have not described how things were before the EA, so we don't have a lot to compare now with then.

So, yeah, living under the same roof......and not even knowing if the status is IHS or not...….is very, very tough. I don't want to break your heart, RR, but unless you give me more specifics...….I don't think you are reconciling without her aware. ((hugs))

All righty, I'm nearing the final stretch. . Yes, I have tried this and that as instructed in the book. Hopefully, I have illustrated how she has been more respectful. If not, ask questions and I'll try harder. " You've also told how she will look sad after you've said something. FWIW, that doesn't mean she feels remorse. You may be hitting close to a nerve, or she may be manipulating the entire show." I have never seen her use this type of manipulation before.
I don't believe that I have convinced myself regarding respect and consideration. The changes are irrefutable.
What is behind them is still up for debate.
Honestly, if I am not in reconciliation, I'm okay with that. I really am.

So, my big question, if I am not in reconciliation and W is willing herself to be a good girl and we don't know where she is in terms of regaining feelings, but know that she doesn't have the respectful attraction to want to be intimate, What do I do with this info?

Do I sit and be patient, do I start putting my foot down regarding future expectations, or is there something completely different that I should explore?

Thank you so much for taking the time!

[sandi2]

I think I'm more confused after reading your last post.

[RR17]

Well, thanks for looking, If there is anything I can clarify that will make it less confusing, I will gladly do so.

[SteveLW]

Do I sit and be patient, do I start putting my foot down regarding future expectations, or is there something completely different that I should explore?

I don't usually interject when sandi is involved because she is far more advance on this stuff than I am. But I really think that you are in a much better place than you think. I think your only problem is when you stop DBing.

Trying for sex and getting shot down? Then getting upset about it? That is newbie level,and RR you are far above newbie level. One of the top rules of DBing is DO NOT INITIATE SEX. It is similar to saying ILY. After BD newbies start saying ILY like a madman. All that does is remind the WAW that she DOESN'T love her H. Same with initiating sex. All that did was remind her that she isn't attract to you like that right now.

I am going to channel sandi here: Lack of attraction is rooted in a lack of respect. So instead of worrying about how to get attraction back, you have to learn how to get your respect back. And just because she is acting respectful doesn't mean she respects you! Are you respectful to the cashier at the store? Would you say you have a great deal of respect for that cashier? See the difference.

RR, if I were you, I'd double-down on the DBing. GAL like a madman. Make her see that you have a rich life outside of the MR. Continue your 180s, cement them to the point where she learns to trust them. And continue to detach. You know how I know you still aren't detached? Getting shot down for sex and reacting badly. A detached H gets shot down for sex and acts as if nothing ever happened.

RR you've got this. Keep DBing. You've seen positive results so far, don't give up now!

[neffer]

I was waiting for Sandi to answer as well. You have done a great effort RR. Keep doing some more. Patience man. Get a project together so as to focus on something outside MR. Have a common goal and start working on that. Get out of your comfort zone and go GAL. If she joins you just show her how evolved is RR 2.0, a pure DBer!

Keep walking man, you are a fighter. All my respect!

[sandi2]

I suspect that she has been WAW since BD#2.

How so? Not a trick question, just want to know how you determine it.

I just knew I was in Limbo. Blurry messages. I have been open to the idea that we were entering R, but I really don't feel like I manufactured it.

Okay, I think I know what you mean. Maybe not so much that she's trying to slip under the door, but slowly getting to the point of reconciling. Is this about right?

Quote

What were several of the problems, and why didn't they get worked out?

Remember that this was 2013 and pre-DB #1. IMO, as stated, her problems were mostly communication. She was never vocal about her wants or need and what she didn't like. She built up animosity based on not having a voice.

But why did she feel she had no voice? Was it b/c she was too shy, didn't how to relate it to you, or was it b/c of how you would react to what she would say?

I got used to this dynamic and took advantage of it. I got beat up by the recession and lost my mojo and confidence. I felt that I was competing for Ws love and attention with my 2 Ds. I became an unagreeable grouch. I was put-out whenever anything was required from me. I went from being the center of this MR to the antagonist in a family. I'm sure there is more.

How did you take advantage?

Things were better but I believe that one thing I never figured out was how to make W feel like she was priority #1.

Was one of her main complaints about you not making her priority in your life?

OM was in the next state, an old flame from pre-RR17. W was looking and OM contacted her on social media. An interesting thing is they had a couple of failed attempts to unite. I believe that both sabotaged these events. Something about being attracted to unavailable people.

What do you mean she "was looking"? Did she and OM ever meet up?

I believe this was part of the process. I wrote about finding a journal entry where admitting struggling with NC and how she didn't want to even think about OM again.

Are you referring to discovering where she had written down part of the Lord's Prayer?

Yes, there was a transparency plan. She agreed and then reneged on some. Now, she seems to take steps to demonstrate transparency.

She didn't want you having access to reading her phone/computer activity whenever you decided to take a look?

The respect and consideration have continued and increased.

Okay, but you still aren't telling me how she's showing respect. Give me so examples.

Remember MC was upon DB #1. I initiated MC because I was Fixing my MR.(sarcastic) W ended it because IMO it exposed too much of her faults She was still speaking to this creep

So she had not ended contact with OM while attending MC? She didn't go through withdrawals while attending MC? At what point did the contact stop and she went through withdrawals?

during my pontification W broke down and was sobbing like I had never seen during all this crap. I asked what was the reason and W said she felt so bad about what she had put me through during A. It seemed genuine.

Did you not see that as her being remorseful? Just asking.

Does she go to confession and partake in Communion, etc.? (I'm not Catholic, so forgive me if I don't word it correctly.)

During that time I had a couple of panic attacks and I was a mess. At that time happened W was still involved it wasn't a priority of her's but now she seemed remorseful.

Sorry, I'm not following what you mean. Are you saying when she apologized she wasn't remorseful, but you think she is now?

I was repeatedly reminded that "actions speak louder than words" I hope other LBS read this and avoid this.

Well, it doesn't mean that advice was wrong. You may have not read the action correctly. Know what I mean? The key is when you start seeing their actions, words, and attitudes line up together.

One thing that has confused my thinking has been that W and I started out as friends 23 years ago. By my choice. So getting back this stage seems like a progress. I believe it in no way bypasses the need for proper R.

There is a season for all things. If the W is wayward, it is not profitable for the H to act as if he is her BFF. However, if she has repented and is respecting/admiring her H, then they can begin rebuilding a respectable friendship in the MR. (I went into great detail about this subject on my WW threads.) This is my opinion. You do what works.

I suspect that she has been "willing" her way back. Much more after I started DBing. The increase in respect and consideration is consistent and increasing. Yes, sometimes she gets miffed at something but when she makes a decision regarding the Ds, she consults me. When we have a disagreement where she used to hold a nonverbal grudge for a couple days, she seems to move on much more quickly. She doesn't default to the idea that I am blaming her for stuff that goes wrong. I used to feel like when my feelings were taken into consideration it was out of pressure from me. Out of sight out of mind. It now seems to be intentional and none coerced.

Okay, now you are giving few examples. Thanks.
How does she talk to you in front of the D's? Ever get sarcastic or raise her voice at you in front of them?

So, my big question, if I am not in reconciliation and W is willing herself to be a good girl and we don't know where she is in terms of regaining feelings, but know that she doesn't have the respectful attraction to want to be intimate, What do I do with this info?

Do I sit and be patient, do I start putting my foot down regarding future expectations, or is there something completely different that I should explore?

My thing is that I have trouble understanding why would will herself to be a good girl if she's not going to tell you anything. Maybe this is part of the communication problem, of which you spoke. Has she gone to this extreme about other things? I mean, if she wanted out of IHS and save the M, would she not suggest that much to you? as she always expected you to "guess" what she was doing or what she wanted? If so, then she really needs help in communicating...….and your job just got harder. (I thought you were like most H's who've complained the W didn't express clearly what she wanted before the bomb drop.)

[RR17]

Quote

I suspect that she has been WAW since BD#2.

How so? Not a trick question, just want to know how you determine it.

Because she has not been defiant and rebellious since BD#2. After BD#1 I saw a woman under a spell that I didn't recognize, as I have seen you describe. I don't currently believe there is an OM.

Quote

I just knew I was in Limbo. Blurry messages. I have been open to the idea that we were entering R, but I really don't feel like I manufactured it.

Okay, I think I know what you mean. Maybe not so much that she's trying to slip under the door, but slowly getting to the point of reconciling. Is this about right?

Point was that the idea that we are entering R was not my own. I am open to it but it was not my initial idea. If this is the case, then yes, she would be slipping in under the door. IMO

But why did she feel she had no voice? Was it b/c she was too shy, didn't how to relate it to you, or was it b/c of how you would react to what she would say?

Yes. A little bit of all of the above. She was very shy as a young girl. IMO, she never "was heard" in her family. She is a great follower. I am a leader. That's how we satisfied each other's needs. I know that I abused this power. Once the girls got to a certain age they became her leader. D19 is a lot like her dad. Problems hit a peak when she turned 50. She gained some confidence due to accomplishments in her job. She gained her voice. After some adjustment, I have fully supported her newly found voice.

How did you take advantage?

I knew that I could convince her of anything. New houses, new cars, etc. I never abused her in a physical way. I just did what I wanted because I never experienced any pushback. I didn't force her to share how she really felt about decisions. For a decade she never complained. I think she both liked a dominant spouse and yet never felt she had much of a voice. This is the biggest thing that I think has changed as a product of all this muck. I celebrate and support the change.

Was one of her main complaints about you not making her priority in your life?

She never really said it. But, I realized it. I think I kind of covered this above. It was a dance we did and it was consensual.

Quote

OM was in the next state, an old flame from pre-RR17. W was looking and OM contacted her on social media. An interesting thing is they had a couple of failed attempts to unite. I believe that both sabotaged these events. Something about being attracted to unavailable people.

What do you mean she "was looking"? Did she and OM ever meet up?

She has always been an attractive modest woman. She posted a pic in bikini and OM responded. No, I don't believe that they ever met up.

Are you referring to discovering where she had written down part of the Lord's Prayer?

No. This was after I had discovered that she was looking up OM after she said she was NC in MC. BD#1
She, to my knowledge, has had no contact since before BD#2. Lord's prayer was after BD#2 when I snooped in her bible study notes.

She didn't want you having access to reading her phone/computer activity whenever you decided to take a look?

She lied about the password on her work laptop. This was a year ago. She has since given it to me. She said she just resented me having all her passwords. Remember she was still planning to move out during this whole episode.

Okay, but you still aren't telling me how she's showing respect. Give me so examples.

This question frustrates me. I guess it's hard to convey. She doesn't go anywhere without telling me. She doesn't get defensive if I ask somewhat prying questions. Even when D19 is here she takes my interest into consideration. She tries to do the right thing, like listen to me, ask me before making plans. Asks me if I need anything when she is at the store. Makes sure there is money in my cigar account.
I feel like I have explained this before and I don't know how to do it any better. It is just a way. I feel important to her. If a D gets smart, she speaks up. She didn't do these things for a long time. Well before BD#1. I really don't know of a better way to illustrate it. If I think of better examples I will add them. I guess the fact that disagreements get settled and moved past faster than ever means something, no?

So she had not ended contact with OM while attending MC? She didn't go through withdrawals while attending MC? At what point did the contact stop and she went through withdrawals?

Gosh, this was so long ago. She said she did end contact during MC. I believe that is when withdrawals began. I guess the 2 times I discovered that contact hadn't stopped were kind of part of withdrawals. Eventually, she stopped me and told me that it was stopped. She said she was sorry but the first times, she just wasn't ready, but it was over. This was a painful time that I was healing and at that point, I felt she was honest. She wasn't happy but she was not a cheater and began willing her way back IMO. This was several years ago.

Quote
during my pontification W broke down and was sobbing like I had never seen during all this crap. I asked what was the reason and W said she felt so bad about what she had put me through during A. It seemed genuine.

Did you not see that as her being remorseful? Just asking.

Does she go to confession and partake in Communion, etc.? (I'm not Catholic, so forgive me if I don't word it correctly.)

Sandi, I did and then I didn't. Never in my 24 years with her had I seen her so remorseful. She owned her action and felt very sorry for the pain that it caused. I questioned whether it was important for her to regret the A and not just the pain it caused me. Granted this was before she moved out of MBR.
No, we are protestant nondenominational Christians.

During that time I had a couple of panic attacks and I was a mess. At that time happened W was still involved it wasn't a priority of her's but now she seemed remorseful.

Sorry, I'm not following what you mean. Are you saying when she apologized she wasn't remorseful, but you think she is now?

Sorry, I must have been tired. I think I was explaining how shortly after BD#1 pre-DB, W begrudgingly acted like she was going to behave and I was in distress. I pulled a few apologies out during many R talks. When she broke down with the above-mentioned apology, I didn't pull it out. She now seems different. Again I can only give you my take. We don't have discussions about 5 years ago. I validate and limit my stories.

Well, it doesn't mean that advice was wrong. You may have not read the action correctly. Know what I mean? The key is when you start seeing their actions, words, and attitudes line up together.

I appreciate all the advice. We are all learning as we go along. lol Everyone here seems to think I see things worse than they really are, while you have said you think I see them better than they are.
All you have is what I give you and I try to do it in a none persuasive way.
I do see as you say, Actions, Words, and attitudes lining up. This is why I had taken the chances to initiate affection. (BTW, it has been several months) If it works it's a victory, when it fails it's a mistake and temp-taking.

There is a season for all things. If the W is wayward, it is not profitable for the H to act as if he is her BFF. However, if she has repented and is respecting/admiring her H, then they can begin rebuilding a respectable friendship in the MR. (I went into great detail about this subject on my WW threads.) This is my opinion. You do what works

Well, I kind of feel like this is where we are. I am reluctant to call it reconciliation but I see the respecting/admiring. And after reading and writing about the show of remorse, I wonder if my own inability has tainted that view. It was a while back and the respect/admiration has been slowly growing. The actions, words, and attitude do seem aligned for quite some time.

Okay, now you are giving few examples. Thanks.
How does she talk to you in front of the D's? Ever get sarcastic or raise her voice at you in front of them?

No, but she never really did. She was sarcastic when we were alone. But in front of the Ds, it was more of what she didn't do. I don't feel so much in competition with D19 anymore.

My thing is that I have trouble understanding why would will herself to be a good girl if she's not going to tell you anything. Maybe this is part of the communication problem, of which you spoke. Has she gone to this extreme about other things? I mean, if she wanted out of IHS and save the M, would she not suggest that much to you? as she always expected you to "guess" what she was doing or what she wanted? If so, then she really needs help in communicating...….and your job just got harder. (I thought you were like most H's who've complained the W didn't express clearly what she wanted before the bomb drop.)

BINGO!
I think she likes where the marriage is now. I don't think she is waiting for me to end IHS. I do think she is still waiting to see if the changes will last.
I asked her once if she has stopped the sex in order to drive me into someone else's arms so I would leave. She looked perplexed and said "no", but she had this look like she had never even pondered that possibility. Not like it wasn't a possibility but that she had never thought about it. Very strange.
She has gained a lot of freedom (although she chooses to spend most free time with me) A voice and more friends. W has gotten her groove back and I have supported it all the way.
I just don't know what to do. I don't want to make this the new normal.

[RR17]

Do I sit and be patient, do I start putting my foot down regarding future expectations, or is there something completely different that I should explore?

I don't usually interject when sandi is involved because she is far more advance on this stuff than I am. But I really think that you are in a much better place than you think. I think your only problem is when you stop DBing.

Trying for sex and getting shot down? Then getting upset about it? That is newbie level,and RR you are far above newbie level. One of the top rules of DBing is DO NOT INITIATE SEX. It is similar to saying ILY. After BD newbies start saying ILY like a madman. All that does is remind the WAW that she DOESN'T love her H. Same with initiating sex. All that did was remind her that she isn't attract to you like that right now.

I am going to channel sandi here: Lack of attraction is rooted in a lack of respect. So instead of worrying about how to get attraction back, you have to learn how to get your respect back. And just because she is acting respectful doesn't mean she respects you! Are you respectful to the cashier at the store? Would you say you have a great deal of respect for that cashier? See the difference.

RR, if I were you, I'd double-down on the DBing. GAL like a madman. Make her see that you have a rich life outside of the MR. Continue your 180s, cement them to the point where she learns to trust them. And continue to detach. You know how I know you still aren't detached? Getting shot down for sex and reacting badly. A detached H gets shot down for sex and acts as if nothing ever happened.

RR you've got this. Keep DBing. You've seen positive results so far, don't give up now!

Thanks, Steve. I don't know where you find the time to go through all these sitchs. When you say that I am in a better place than I think, I have to wonder what kind of place do I portray that I am in?

Now I get it about initiating sex. We even talked about it before I took a chance. If it was successful I would have done the right thing. Hind sights 20/20.
As for detaching. I get what you're saying, but you have to understand when actions, words, and attitudes, aline we let that wall down a bit. I will also add that it has been several months since the last time I initiated. W's actions led me to believe the time was right. In fact, I convinced myself that she wanted me to do it. I got shot down.

As for the doubling down? I don't know what that looks like. If I Get Any more of a separate Life, I will be single. I don't talk about all my extracurriculars because I feel a little bit guilty. I volunteer twice a week. Monday night Bible study. I have social events with and without W, Golf. I don't know what else to do.

I am going to channel sandi here: Lack of attraction is rooted in a lack of respect. So instead of worrying about how to get attraction back, you have to learn how to get your respect back. And just because she is acting respectful doesn't mean she respects you! Are you respectful to the cashier at the store? Would you say you have a great deal of respect for that cashier? See the difference.

Oh, I get it. But what does this look like? How does one restore the respect other than the other DB techniques?

[RR17]

I was waiting for Sandi to answer as well. You have done a great effort RR. Keep doing some more. Patience man. Get a project together so as to focus on something outside MR. Have a common goal and start working on that. Get out of your comfort zone and go GAL. If she joins you just show her how evolved is RR 2.0, a pure DBer!

Keep walking man, you are a fighter. All my respect!

Thanks neffer. You've said this before. W and I are working on projects together all the time. We are. I've tried to do a better job of sharing the good times here not just the bad. In the early stages all that is shared it the blood and gets. We do several dinners just the two of us. I am helping the small business that she works for negotiating a lease. We worked together to locate the perfect new spot. Her CFO kept praising my efforts in texts and emails and she would show me.

As for GAL read my response for Steve. I really think I am pushing the point of diminishing return.

[SteveLW]

Do I sit and be patient, do I start putting my foot down regarding future expectations, or is there something completely different that I should explore?

I don't usually interject when sandi is involved because she is far more advance on this stuff than I am. But I really think that you are in a much better place than you think. I think your only problem is when you stop DBing.

Trying for sex and getting shot down? Then getting upset about it? That is newbie level,and RR you are far above newbie level. One of the top rules of DBing is DO NOT INITIATE SEX. It is similar to saying ILY. After BD newbies start saying ILY like a madman. All that does is remind the WAW that she DOESN'T love her H. Same with initiating sex. All that did was remind her that she isn't attract to you like that right now.

I am going to channel sandi here: Lack of attraction is rooted in a lack of respect. So instead of worrying about how to get attraction back, you have to learn how to get your respect back. And just because she is acting respectful doesn't mean she respects you! Are you respectful to the cashier at the store? Would you say you have a great deal of respect for that cashier? See the difference.

RR, if I were you, I'd double-down on the DBing. GAL like a madman. Make her see that you have a rich life outside of the MR. Continue your 180s, cement them to the point where she learns to trust them. And continue to detach. You know how I know you still aren't detached? Getting shot down for sex and reacting badly. A detached H gets shot down for sex and acts as if nothing ever happened.

RR you've got this. Keep DBing. You've seen positive results so far, don't give up now!

Thanks, Steve. I don't know where you find the time to go through all these sitchs.

Some days it is definitely easier than others! I think I feel an obligation, since my sitch resolved so quickly (note that doesn't mean without pain or work!), to pay it forward. Also, a lot of this is therapeutic to me, it reinforces my 180s and that I need to continue to DB, and it has also become a big part of my GAL!

When you say that I am in a better place than I think, I have to wonder what kind of place do I portray that I am in?

What I mean by this is that you have seen progress. And though you get impatient with limbo, I really feel like you have a good chance of successfully saving your marriage. When we get impatient is when we make mistakes. Look, no one likes limbo. I was in limbo for about 3 months and it felt like 3 millennia! So I get it. But understanding that progress has been made sometimes helps with that. Even when my wife was still WW and occasionally rebelling against the MR, looking back at where we had come since BD, since her sending nude pics to EA OM, since her posting a full dating profile on a dating site (w/ a full explanation of our sitch I might add!), really helped. Take the the little wins. It is like a football game where you were down by 4 TDs but have come back.....the comeback didn't happen all at once. It was a series of small victories that all added up to an eventual comeback. That is DBing.

Now I get it about initiating sex. We even talked about it before I took a chance. If it was successful I would have done the right thing. Hind sights 20/20.
As for detaching. I get what you're saying, but you have to understand when actions, words, and attitudes, aline we let that wall down a bit. I will also add that it has been several months since the last time I initiated. W's actions led me to believe the time was right. In fact, I convinced myself that she wanted me to do it. I got shot down.

Ok I misread and thought this was more recent. Sorry for that. And I understand what you mean about actions, words and attitudes. What you left out of that equation is TIME. Anyone can change actions, words and attitudes for a short time. What you are looking for here is consistent actons, words and attitudes over a LONG period of time. Months.....years even. Don't let your guard down because she was sweet one weekend. This is where so many make mistakes. Read Did's thread. His W is a master manipulator and he falls for it every time.

[quote=RR17]
As for the doubling down? I don't know what that looks like. If I Get Any more of a separate Life, I will be single. I don't talk about all my extracurriculars because I feel a little bit guilty. I volunteer twice a week. Monday night Bible study. I have social events with and without W, Golf. I don't know what else to do.

Great question. And this is a struggle a lot of us have. Especially those of us that were pretty good at GAL before BD, and that were emotionally checked out before BD. The difference is that while you are busy as much as you can be, when you are there you are emotionall, mentally, and spiritually present. She'll see, "oh he has changed, but man does he have a busy life!" Your statement about "I will be single" is exactly what you are going for! WAWs expect their Hs to curl up in the fetal position and suck their thumb post BD. When that doesn't happen guess what? Read below......

[quote]I am going to channel sandi here: Lack of attraction is rooted in a lack of respect. So instead of worrying about how to get attraction back, you have to learn how to get your respect back. And just because she is acting respectful doesn't mean she respects you! Are you respectful to the cashier at the store? Would you say you have a great deal of respect for that cashier? See the difference.

Oh, I get it. But what does this look like? How does one restore the respect other than the other DB techniques?

.....that looks like what we were just talking about! A happy, healthy, fulfilled RR17 that his wife looks at and says..."Wow, I BD him twice, and this guy just went on with life and is happier than ever!!" Imagine if when you first met your W....all those years ago...you were a sad, mopey guy. When you weren't out with her you sat at home miserable, no friends, no life, nothing to do. Do you think she would have seen you and said "Wow, this guy is awesome! I respect him sooooo much, and that makes me attracted to him!" Or would she have thought, "Wow, this guy is pathetic!"

I know when I met my W I was a busy guy. And I "fit" her into my schedule. It made her realize that I had a life.....and that she was becoming a priority to me because I was fitting her into my life. Guess what, post BD the same dynamic worked. When you sit home all the time and do nothing, and then your W asks for time and you give it to her it is like asking for water on the beach of an lake. But when you are in desert with a gallon of water and you are willing to share some with her that will have a bigger impression.

RR, those that struggle the most do GAL the worst. And those that GAL but are always looking over their shoulder to see if their WAS is noticing aren't much better off. GAL for you, like you did WHEN you were single. She'll notice, respect it, and eventually feel special when (but not until she is open to it) you start fitting her in. Again, Did's sitch is a cautionary tale about being too available to the WAW.

[SteveLW]

DOH! I messed up the quotes in that last post. Cadet, any chance of reopening the edit button for me?

[sandi2]

Okay.....I have been really confused, but I think I have a little better understanding now. I think I am seeing the two of you in a different light after reading your reply to my previous post. So, I'm going to start giving you advice based on how you've recently described your W. I don't want to confuse you, and I don't want another reader to see this post and think it applies to their situation, especially if they have a wayward W. If things start going south, we can always take a different course of action.

At this point, we won't hash and rehash about her being a wayward or WAW, or try to figure out exactly where you stand in the MR. After reading your reply, I don't see you like a H with NGS......which is a good thing. From what you've said, she waits on you to lead, and she wants to spend time with you and is not doing anything that makes you feel disrespected, plus she has stated she is feeling happier. So. we'll go start at this point, if that's okay with you.

I am thinking that her biggest issue, currently, is physical intimacy. Did I understand you to say that there had been a SSM in the past? Was this before your job problems or afterwards? Did your W always participate as though she really enjoyed sex? Be honest. Would she do a lot of kissing mouth to mouth? See, when a woman has sex with a man she is not feeling much attraction for, it's not unusual for her to try to avoid the passionate tongue kissing. She'll engage with the intercourse, but she doesn't want to have the deep kisses. But if she is wildly attracted to the man, she'll want a lot of passionate kisses. Some men don't know that, and they think b/c she's had intercourse or oral sex that everything is good with her. Ah, but he better check out those kisses.

Anyway, you need to remain in the MBR. Don't pressure her to sleep with you. Don't drop hints or make jokes about sex or anything of that nature, okay? I may be wrong, but I'm wondering if her hold up from moving back in the MBR is due to not wanting to engage in physical intimacy. If that's the case, then you can work to draw attraction without engaging in the sexual act. We can talk more about that later.

I don't want you to come on too strong all at once, b/c it will cause her to pull away. So stay balanced with what I'm going to suggest. I think you are already participating in family activities. I think you said you flirt with her? Okay, just don't make it about sex. In other words, flirt as if you had just met her and want to get to know her better. You would compliment her about her pretty eyes, or hair, or what she is wearing. Don't sound like a husband, "You look really nice". Be specific. Also, you can complement her about anything she does well, like cooking your favorite dish, or keeping the house clean, or whatever. Just don't pour it on all at once. Spread it out. The secret is not to overkill, b/c if you do, it's going to have the opposite effect of what you want.

You need to be charming, fun, mysterious, interesting, positive, etc. This is what she needs to be seeing her H. Not some man who is negative, dull, in a bad mood, etc. Leave her wanting more. Just don't hint that any of it is to get her in your bed. Since she is not wanting to have sex with you, then the more you make suggestive sexual innuendos, the more turned off she's going to feel. Just so you understand, if she should surprise you and show up in your bed, don't go for the cookie right away. Play it by ear, and take it slow. If she just wants to get it over with, then she'll probably want you to go straight for the cookie. (Confused?)

Anyway, on with the plan of action. During the month of December, you can take advantage of holiday fun, events, traditions, family stuff, etc. You can even invite her along when you go out. If she doesn't want to, that's okay and don't show disappointment. I think as long as she doesn't feel pressured sexually, she'll be good with this change in you. During this month and up till New Years Eve, I want you to incorporate more physical touches, but they have to be non-sexual touches.

When the two of you are out in public, you can take her by the hand if you are trying to get through a crowd......but don't hold hands with her when you are just walking side by side, or sitting together, etc. Know the difference? When you go out into a restaurant to be seated, for example, put your hand on the small of her back to show you are guiding her (in a protective sort of way) to your seats. You can do this whenever the two of you start through doors, enter or exit an elevator, etc. You can touch her elbow, her shoulder, back, arms, and (sometimes) her waist ...….in non-sexual, non-creepy ways. Don't leave your hand there long, just make it a causal touch, like if you pass her in the hallway, or are standing by her, or whatever. I'm sure you remember a time when it felt natural. You want to get back to that point, without drawing attention to it, and without her feeling uncomfortable. This is nothing you need to discuss with her. If you do it correctly, and she still objects...….then let us know.

You can make plans together, talk about what to get everyone for Christmas, etc. Show her that you are interested, rather than just leaving it up to whatever she decides to pick out. Know what I mean? It's just an opportunity to show off your best side. Show her those improvements you've been making. Like I keep cautioning you, just don't smother her with your presence or pour too much on too suddenly. You want to allow it to build upward.

If she seems to respond positively, and is acting happier in the days leading up to Christmas, then I think you should buy her a gift. Right now, and until you can determine more as it gets closer to Christmas, I don't think you need to go overboard on a expensive gift, but get something that shows you've put some thought into it, and something she'd like.

I can write more later, but for now.....how do you feel about my suggestions? If this is off track, I think you'll know soon enough. Resist the urge to explain to her why you seem different or have changed. Some H's just can't contain themselves! Do not initiate talk about the relationship, the status of M, or your future together. If she initiates a positive discussion, then you can join into the conversation......as long as you don't appear to be explaining to her what you've been trying to accomplish, etc. I hope you know what I mean. I see this a lot in nice guy H's.

Remember, stay balanced about what I am suggesting. If I have totally blown your mind, tell me, and I'll step back.

[RR17]

Sandi, I'm starting to feel understood.

I am thinking that her biggest issue, currently, is physical intimacy. Did I understand you to say that there had been a SSM in the past? Was this before your job problems or afterwards? Did your W always participate as though she really enjoyed sex? Be honest. Would she do a lot of kissing mouth to mouth? See, when a woman has sex with a man she is not feeling much attraction for, it's not unusual for her to try to avoid the passionate tongue kissing. She'll engage with the intercourse, but she doesn't want to have the deep kisses. But if she is wildly attracted to the man, she'll want a lot of passionate kisses. Some men don't know that, and they think b/c she's had intercourse or oral sex that everything is good with her. Ah, but he better check out those kisses.

SSM, lol. Several posts ago I read this and thought Same Sex Marriage. I was like"What?".
I'm going to be as honest here as possible. We had a lot of sex in the beginning. After a while, my appetite was not fulfilled. Twice a week, three weeks a month. In retrospect, it may have been the quality and not quantity.
Sandi, what you have described is exactly what has gone on. Little to no kisses. If I tried deep tongue kisses she pulled back. So you have hit the proverbial nail on the head.
I thought it was just getting older and perhaps cigars. I took special measures to make sure it wasn't cigars. She said she couldn't smell cigars. But yes. Sex was something she would dole out like some sort of allowance and I resented it. I was always perplexed because once we got started she always seemed to enjoy the experience. Multi-orgasmic every time. I made sure of it. But there was always a hint of psychological removal. Like she wasn't emotionally involved. I thought it was a hang-up about sex. I read about and watched many videos about the messages little girls get yadda yadda yadda.
One day back in the Spring this year she was reluctantly about to participate and I told her that I didn't want her to do it is she didn't want to. I had thought that the sexual attraction stage and the physical stage were just mixed up as I have read, happens in many women. Well, she said, "I don't want to." I said Okay and in an understanding way I accepted it.
That was like 6 months ago and I have tried to initiate it 2 or three times since. Things seemed to be progressing and it seemed she was waiting for me. I was wrong.
One time I took issue with the way she insensitively handled the rejection and after bringing my story here I get reminded that I screwed up and need to detach etc. I wasn't so much that I was attached to the outcome. I had lowered my defenses to be as genuine as possible and she, in a no regard for my feelings way, didn't handle well. Everything thing else in the R at the time said she was concerned with my feelings. I hope I have explained this well enough.

Anyway, you need to remain in the MBR. Don't pressure her to sleep with you. Don't drop hints or make jokes about sex or anything of that nature, okay? I may be wrong, but I'm wondering if her hold up from moving back in the MBR is due to not wanting to engage in physical intimacy. If that's the case, then you can work to draw attraction without engaging in the sexual act. We can talk more about that later.

I think you are correct.

I don't want you to come on too strong all at once, b/c it will cause her to pull away. So stay balanced with what I'm going to suggest. I think you are already participating in family activities. I think you said you flirt with her? Okay, just don't make it about sex. In other words, flirt as if you had just met her and want to get to know her better. You would compliment her about her pretty eyes, or hair, or what she is wearing. Don't sound like a husband, "You look really nice". Be specific. Also, you can complement her about anything she does well, like cooking your favorite dish, or keeping the house clean, or whatever. Just don't pour it on all at once. Spread it out. The secret is not to overkill, b/c if you do, it's going to have the opposite effect of what you want.

This is kind of what I've been doing recently. I'm glad to hear you say it and too little is better than too much.

You need to be charming, fun, mysterious, interesting, positive, etc. This is what she needs to be seeing her H. Not some man who is negative, dull, in a bad mood, etc. Leave her wanting more. Just don't hint that any of it is to get her in your bed. Since she is not wanting to have sex with you, then the more you make suggestive sexual innuendos, the more turned off she's going to feel. Just so you understand, if she should surprise you and show up in your bed, don't go for the cookie right away. Play it by ear, and take it slow. If she just wants to get it over with, then she'll probably want you to go straight for the cookie. (Confused?)

I get it.

You need to be charming, fun, mysterious, interesting, positive, etc. This is what she needs to be seeing her H. Not some man who is negative, dull, in a bad mood, etc. Leave her wanting more. Just don't hint that any of it is to get her in your bed. Since she is not wanting to have sex with you, then the more you make suggestive sexual innuendos, the more turned off she's going to feel. Just so you understand, if she should surprise you and show up in your bed, don't go for the cookie right away. Play it by ear, and take it slow. If she just wants to get it over with, then she'll probably want you to go straight for the cookie. (Confused?)

Anyway, on with the plan of action. During the month of December, you can take advantage of holiday fun, events, traditions, family stuff, etc. You can even invite her along when you go out. If she doesn't want to, that's okay and don't show disappointment. I think as long as she doesn't feel pressured sexually, she'll be good with this change in you. During this month and up till New Years Eve, I want you to incorporate more physical touches, but they have to be non-sexual touches.

When the two of you are out in public, you can take her by the hand if you are trying to get through a crowd......but don't hold hands with her when you are just walking side by side, or sitting together, etc. Know the difference? When you go out into a restaurant to be seated, for example, put your hand on the small of her back to show you are guiding her (in a protective sort of way) to your seats. You can do this whenever the two of you start through doors, enter or exit an elevator, etc. You can touch her elbow, her shoulder, back, arms, and (sometimes) her waist ...….in non-sexual, non-creepy ways. Don't leave your hand there long, just make it a causal touch, like if you pass her in the hallway, or are standing by her, or whatever. I'm sure you remember a time when it felt natural. You want to get back to that point, without drawing attention to it, and without her feeling uncomfortable. This is nothing you need to discuss with her. If you do it correctly, and she still objects...….then let us know.

You can make plans together, talk about what to get everyone for Christmas, etc. Show her that you are interested, rather than just leaving it up to whatever she decides to pick out. Know what I mean? It's just an opportunity to show off your best side. Show her those improvements you've been making. Like I keep cautioning you, just don't smother her with your presence or pour too much on too suddenly. You want to allow it to build upward.

If she seems to respond positively, and is acting happier in the days leading up to Christmas, then I think you should buy her a gift. Right now, and until you can determine more as it gets closer to Christmas, I don't think you need to go overboard on a expensive gift, but get something that shows you've put some thought into it, and something she'd like.

I can write more later, but for now.....how do you feel about my suggestions? If this is off track, I think you'll know soon enough. Resist the urge to explain to her why you seem different or have changed. Some H's just can't contain themselves! Do not initiate talk about the relationship, the status of M, or your future together. If she initiates a positive discussion, then you can join into the conversation......as long as you don't appear to be explaining to her what you've been trying to accomplish, etc. I hope you know what I mean. I see this a lot in nice guy H's.

Remember, stay balanced about what I am suggesting. If I have totally blown your mind, tell me, and I'll step back.

No, this is perfect. I can do these things and have been to an extent. Some of this was suggested here by Steve. Especially as far as the non-sexual physical touches. Holidays are emotionally charged and the perfect opportunity to execute these behaviors. I have a plan and will work it until Jan. unless things change. I'm encouraged, excited and feel understood.
Thank you so much, Sandi!

[SteveLW]

sandi, if you read this could you hop over to my thread?

[sandi2]

Sandi, what you have described is exactly what has gone on. Little to no kisses. If I tried deep tongue kisses she pulled back. So you have hit the proverbial nail on the head.
I thought it was just getting older and perhaps cigars. I took special measures to make sure it wasn't cigars. She said she couldn't smell cigars.

As people get older, it definitely takes more effort in keeping a fresh breath. And I'll tell you something I find interesting, it seems to be difficult for some women to tell their man he has bad breath, or whatever it is about his mouth that isn't very sexy at the moment. Going to the dentist regularly, and brushing your teeth (and scraping your tongue) goes without saying. I've heard that having certain stomach issues, gum disease, dry mouth, etc. can give us bad breath. All you can do is try to make sure you've covered all the bases.

But yes. Sex was something she would dole out like some sort of allowance and I resented it. I was always perplexed because once we got started she always seemed to enjoy the experience. Multi-orgasmic every time. I made sure of it. But there was always a hint of psychological removal. Like she wasn't emotionally involved.

I believe there is a difference in making love and just having sex. For a woman to make love, I think she has to feel emotionally connected/attached to the man. Maybe the man does, too. I can't speak for him. I think men learn early on that they need to "humor" the woman, so to speak. Get her in a good mood, to prepare her for sex. If it's making love.....great, and if it's just sex......great (in the man's opinion?)

Most women know that the man needs sex ever so often, just to be able to live peacefully with him. In other words, even if she isn't interested in it, she'll dole out the sex, "for his sake" or so he will stop pressuring her. Since women do not have to physically perform like is required from the man, she can just lay there and let him do the work, or she can participate if she thinks it will speed things along. (Sorry guys, I know this is harsh.)

I thought it was a hang-up about sex. I read about and watched many videos about the messages little girls get yadda yadda yadda.

It very well could be a hang-up. If she was fed a lot of negative things about sex when she was growing up, or just negative things in how men look at women and sex......it is very difficult to overcome. My mother would talk to me about how boys don't respect girls who will have sex with them, yada, yada. If the girl gets pregnant, more yada, yada. Girls older than me would talk about how boys would "test" girls to see how far the girl would go, and to see if she was a "good girl" or "bad". I was told that men did not want to marry girls who had slept around. In other words, I was given the old double standard. I don't think it is as prevalent today as it was before the sexual revolution. That's not to say people don't get hang-ups.

When I got married (very young), suddenly I was suppose to erase all those old tapes in my brain and be sexually uninhibited? Actually, I did pretty well, considering. But we got pregnant right off the bat and was living with his mom and that started causing other problems that affected my level of respect for him. After the baby was born, I had postpartum depression, and my sex drive took a dive.

Hormones play a big part in women....and men. One of the best things I did after my MR reconciled, was go to a hormone balancing specialist. The doctor told me that my sex hormones had flatlined. Anyway, if you can bring your W to multiple orgasms, then I doubt her sex hormones are below normal. That doesn't take care of the mental part, however. If she has a fear of intimacy or whatever, she may have to seek sex therapy.

One day back in the Spring this year she was reluctantly about to participate and I told her that I didn't want her to do it is she didn't want to. I had thought that the sexual attraction stage and the physical stage were just mixed up as I have read, happens in many women. Well, she said, "I don't want to." I said Okay and in an understanding way I accepted it.
That was like 6 months ago and I have tried to initiate it 2 or three times since. Things seemed to be progressing and it seemed she was waiting for me. I was wrong.

I remember one time my H said that he had made up his mind that if we ever had sex again, it would be b/c I initiated it. It was always difficult for me to initiate, and part of it goes back to those old tapes being replayed in my head. It felt so weird for me, and I wanted to be romanced and seduced. We might goes for weeks or months waiting on each other, and when there was no sex.......all forms of physical affection would seem to die out, too. Then out of the blue, he would walk up behind me while I had my hands in the dishwater, and he would grab my breasts or put his hand down my pants. I absolutely hated it. I have talked with other women who feel the same way, so it's not just me. I tried to tell him it didn't turn me on, and it was like he didn't hear me. Then I finally told him I hated it, and he got mad and sulked. The thing is that the longer a woman goes without any type of physical affection, and the longer she goes without making love...…..the harder it is for her to respond favorably to a sudden gross sexual contact. It seems aggressive. She needs the H to keep the touches/contact on a more day to day even keel. Do some kind of affectionate touching every day. It doesn't have to be sexual, but no touching whatsoever just leads her to being colder, IMHO. They both build up some resentment. I realize everyone is not the same, but from my experience and the women I have heard talk about these issues, are on the same page with what I'm telling you.

Don't go for a couple of months with out ever touching her at all, and then suddenly catch her with her back turned and start grabbing and squeezing. Does that make sense? If we had just had a night of hot sex, maybe I would not have seen it in quite in the same light. However, I never really understood what kind of response H's expect when the W is up to her elbows in dishwater, or preparing food, or whatever, and he walks up behind her and starts humping or grabbling. Is she suppose to throw her head back, start moaning, fall down on the floor and beg for it, what? Understand my point here. Before this type of action is displayed from the H, there needs to be a more consistent or regular type of physical interaction where he is lovingly touching her. Even then, I don't know if she would welcome this particular act, just saying it isn't my cup of tea. To go for an extended period of time where there has been no flirting, no playing, no non-sexual touching, no affectional touching, and no sexual touching......this type of approach is too aggressive. I'm just using this one as an example.

One time I took issue with the way she insensitively handled the rejection and after bringing my story here I get reminded that I screwed up and need to detach etc. I wasn't so much that I was attached to the outcome. I had lowered my defenses to be as genuine as possible and she, in a no regard for my feelings way, didn't handle well. Everything thing else in the R at the time said she was concerned with my feelings. I hope I have explained this well enough.

I understand, b/c I was much the same way when I wasn't wanting physical intimacy with my H. Some of it was ignorance on my part, b/c I didn't really grasp how badly it hurt him to be rejected sexually. And, part of it was my own emotional needs were not being met by my H. I needed emotional intimacy, in order to desire physical intimacy. It's a long story, but my H never understood what I meant by emotional intimacy. I needed that pillow talk time when a couple goes to bed. I needed him to give me words of affirmation. I needed the playful teasing and kisses. I needed to feel emotionally connected to him. When I felt emotionally connected, the desire to be physically intimate just naturally came. He would not go to bed when I went. He wanted to sit up late watching tv. Usually, he fell asleep on the couch. If he went to bed when I did......I knew why he was showing up. He went right into initiating sex. He wasn't rushing it, but I knew why he had come to bed with me. It made me feel like I was just being used to satisfy his needs, and then he would get back up and watch more tv. So, I had no pre or post sex emotional connecting. I also got tired of being blamed for the lack of sex, although it was partly true. I felt that my H saw having more sex as fixing our M problems. That was his answer whenever I tried to approach him about different issues. So, I became very resentful. It becomes like a cold war.

I can do these things and have been to an extent.

Yeah......I figured you were.

[RR17]

As people get older, it definitely takes more effort in keeping a fresh breath. And I'll tell you something I find interesting, it seems to be difficult for some women to tell their man he has bad breath, or whatever it is about his mouth that isn't very sexy at the moment. Going to the dentist regularly, and brushing your teeth (and scraping your tongue) goes without saying. I've heard that having certain stomach issues, gum disease, dry mouth, etc. can give us bad breath. All you can do is try to make sure you've covered all the bases.

All these measures have been taken, along with special expensive mouthwash. BTW, my W had no problem eventually telling me I stunk. She didn't use much tact but as you describe she probably struggled with speaking up. This was years ago. I have asked if it is still an issue and she says no. I have granted her permission to tell me if I stink. I think the current issue was as you described and more about a lack of emotional connection. Like I said you hit the nail on the head.

I believe there is a difference in making love and just having sex. For a woman to make love, I think she has to feel emotionally connected/attached to the man. Maybe the man does, too. I can't speak for him. I think men learn early on that they need to "humor" the woman, so to speak. Get her in a good mood, to prepare her for sex. If it's making love.....great, and if it's just sex......great (in the man's opinion?) grin

For the record. I believe that a woman has to feel loved, in order to make love. A man needs to have sex in order to feel loved. Even in a somewhat healthy relationship, we men use sex to temp-take. This recent prohibition has helped me to see love in other ways. And I guess that's a good thing.

Hormones play a big part in women....and men. One of the best things I did after my MR reconciled, was go to a hormone balancing specialist. The doctor told me that my sex hormones had flatlined. shocked Anyway, if you can bring your W to multiple orgasms, then I doubt her sex hormones are below normal. That doesn't take care of the mental part, however.

Before BD#1 W had expressed a lack of happiness. After some reading, I suggested she get her thyroid checked. It was fine. I now see that this was a sign and lead up to EA and BD. She has since found happiness in all the other things I have previously described. More friends, success at work, Ds and my removal of all pressure in the MR.

I remember one time my H said that he had made up his mind that if we ever had sex again, it would be b/c I initiated it. It was always difficult for me to initiate, and part of it goes back to those old tapes being replayed in my head. It felt so weird for me, and I wanted to be romanced and seduced. We might goes for weeks or months waiting on each other, and when there was no sex.......all forms of physical affection would seem to die out, too. Then out of the blue, he would walk up behind me while I had my hands in the dishwater, and he would grab my breasts or put his hand down my pants. I absolutely hated it. I have talked with other women who feel the same way, so it's not just me. I tried to tell him it didn't turn me on, and it was like he didn't hear me. Then I finally told him I hated it, and he got mad and sulked.

This reads like a page from my own life. As men, we get these messages from movies about spontaneity that don't often apply in real life. I remember a time when we were having a lot of sex (honeymoon phase) and I forcefully took her up against the door etc etc. And she later commented that she liked it a lot. Seduction gets complicated in a long-term MR. I plan to add some kind of affectionate non-sexual touching every day. I had tried to do this several weeks ago and there were hugs. At one point she seemed put off. I asked her if the hugs bothered her. She said "a little" they made her uncomfortable. I stopped. Yesterday while discussing some challenges from her work, W started to get a little emotional. I stepped up and hugged her. Her response was receptive. She has turned into a complicated creature.

I understand, b/c I was much the same way when I wasn't wanting physical intimacy with my H. Some of it was ignorance on my part, b/c I didn't really grasp how badly it hurt him to be rejected sexually. And, part of it was my own emotional needs were not being met by my H. I needed emotional intimacy, in order to desire physical intimacy.

This reminds me of an instance recently were I had said that not having sex for over 5 months was the longest I had gone since, well like high school. W looked seriously at me and said "Me too! Well not since HS but for a very long time." She said this like it was something that was happening to her, not because of her choice. I didn't point it out that she was the cause. But it was like she was saying that we were in the same tough spot. Anyway, I thought this was strange.

... I felt that my H saw having more sex as fixing our M problems. That was his answer whenever I tried to approach him about different issues. So, I became very resentful. It becomes like a cold war.

I believe these have been her thoughts. That if we do it, it will mean that things are all good.

I will proceed as discussed here. Continue with the usual DB practices and intentional, none sexual touches, try to flirt and be funny.

[sandi2]

For the record. I believe that a woman has to feel loved, in order to make love.

I wrote more about this subject on Steve's thread today.

Even in a somewhat healthy relationship, we men use sex to temp-take.

It makes sense, but it's not an accurate measuring technique.

After some reading, I suggested she get her thyroid checked. It was fine. I now see that this was a sign and lead up to EA and BD

That may be the case sometimes. I feel there is a difference in not being happy in general and not being happy with the MR. Women are not always clear when stating their feelings. But anyway......when I came here as a WW, one of the first things I was told (b/c I was blaming my H for all my unhappiness) is that every individual is responsible for their own happiness. That was a tough pill to swallow. (BTW, this is an example of one of those things I caution you H's not to repeat to their W, thinking if it was said on the board it will be good to say to their W. Just throwing this tip in, free of charge.)

People who experience depression for the first time, often look for what's making them feel so unhappy. Sometimes it is due to chemical imbalance or whatever. Anyway, I'm really glad to hear she is doing better.

This reads like a page from my own life. As men, we get these messages from movies about spontaneity that don't often apply in real life. I remember a time when we were having a lot of sex (honeymoon phase) and I forcefully took her up against the door etc etc. And she later commented that she liked it a lot. Seduction gets complicated in a long-term MR.

Unfortunately, a lot of men get the wrong idea from movies, (and from porn). My H did, too. He compared me to the hotties in the movies, and thought something was wrong with me when I didn't respond like those actresses.

Not sure what you mean by seduction gets complicated. Women like for the man to be dominate in the bedroom. This is probably why your W liked you holding her against the door. Plus, it was probably something different.

I plan to add some kind of affectionate non-sexual touching every day. I had tried to do this several weeks ago and there were hugs. At one point she seemed put off. I asked her if the hugs bothered her. She said "a little" they made her uncomfortable.

She must really be on guard about any sign of sexual moves from you. My suggestion is that if you start to hug her, do a side to side hug, instead of front to front. That makes it a non-sexual touch when doing it side to side.

I stepped up and hugged her. Her response was receptive. She has turned into a complicated creature.

All women are complicated to men. I suggest you not look for excuses to hug her, until she gets more comfortable with your other non-sexual touches. I also suggest you not quiz her about having whether or not she has a problem with you touching her in some manner. I'd try to explain, but it's complicated. Just judge by her body language, and if she tenses or pulls away.....then don't try again for a while. I know I continue to tell you, but please don't over kill by trying to do too much too soon. You have to ease into this.

Quote

I understand, b/c I was much the same way when I wasn't wanting physical intimacy with my H. Some of it was ignorance on my part, b/c I didn't really grasp how badly it hurt him to be rejected sexually. And, part of it was my own emotional needs were not being met by my H. I needed emotional intimacy, in order to desire physical intimacy.

This reminds me of an instance recently were I had said that not having sex for over 5 months was the longest I had gone since, well like high school. W looked seriously at me and said "Me too! Well not since HS but for a very long time." She said this like it was something that was happening to her, not because of her choice. I didn't point it out that she was the cause. But it was like she was saying that we were in the same tough spot. Anyway, I thought this was strange.

First of all, you didn't have to point out she was the cause. Trust me, the W knows whenever he complains about not getting sex.....he's blaming her. Look, you aren't seeing this from her point of view, and maybe a guy just can't understand it, IDK. You said in order to feel love, you need sex, right? That doesn't mean it applies to her. Just b/c she engages in sex with you doesn't mean she feels loved. It doesn't mean her emotional needs are met. You said women need to feel loved in order to make love (which I don't agree they have to feel love to have sex, but I think I get what you mean). I guess it does seem a little strange to you, since you can bring her to orgasm, b/c you see her getting the same pleasure and satisfaction as you receive from sex. She may receive pleasure, but it doesn't mean a woman feels loved through having sex. She needs to feel loved in some other way.

She doesn't need a man in order to have multiple orgasms. Sorry to be so harsh, and I'm not saying every woman out there agrees with me......but so far, emotional needs can't be fulfilled with a vibrator. Some women's love language is physical touch. (I think every man's LL is physical touch.) But anyway, if her LL is physical touch, then she would probably need that body contact and sex. Since she's not wanting to engage in physical intimacy, I'm guessing her LL is something else. Have you read the book of love languages?

I think she is trying to tell you that you aren't the only one who has unmet needs in this relationship. It's not near as simple for her, as you want to make it sound, b/c her LL is not sex. It's not all her fault, either. It's not her choice that she isn't getting her emotional needs met. Unfortunately, she does not communicate well, so it's difficult for you to know exactly what she wants. You can learn more about women's emotional needs by reading material written on the subject. You can be proactive by experimenting to see what works. Remember what I said about my H and how I needed him to join me at bedtime, do the pillow talk thing, give me a few words of affirmation, etc.? I didn't think it was too much to ask, but he wouldn't do it, and therefore I wasn't meeting his needs either...….so the relationship suffered. I suggest you reframe from making statements about how long it's been since having sex. She knows exactly what you are doing with that comment.

I don't want to imply that it's okay to remain in a SSM indefinitely. I do think some women decide they don't intend to have any more sex with their H, and that's that as far as she's concerned. That's wrong, and that's not what I am seeing here. I think she's a woman who hopes that someday things will change for the better. Maybe we can figure out more about it as we go.

Quote

... I felt that my H saw having more sex as fixing our M problems. That was his answer whenever I tried to approach him about different issues. So, I became very resentful. It becomes like a cold war.

I believe these have been her thoughts. That if we do it, it will mean that things are all good.

When I decided to end my A and stay in my M, I held back on encouraging my H, b/c he would think everything was okay......and it wasn't. It was not a quick or easy fix. From what I've heard other women say, their H's judge the relationship by their sex life. If he's happy with their sex life, then he thinks she should be, too, He wonders what is her problem! I think it's a matter of her not feeling like she's been heard emotionally. I talked to my H until I was talked out, trying to explain to him what I needed. He still did not get it. I didn't know what else to do. I tried using pictures and examples......he still thought if we just had more sex our MR would be fine. So, I gave up. I really gave up. I was done. I was still physically here, but I was emotionally done. I felt as if I was dead inside. That's when I became vulnerable to some sweet talking man and had an A, b/c he made me feel special and alive. (I had had imaginary affairs for years, letting romance novels and movies feed my desires.) See, women can be fooled by fiction, too. Anyway, it was very difficult for me to find that desire and emotional energy to invest into my "dead" M.

I will proceed as discussed here. Continue with the usual DB practices and intentional, none sexual touches, try to flirt and be funny.

Fun.....not funny. Be a fun person she enjoys being with. She may not find you so "funny". Know the difference?

[ballast]

Just wanted to say thank you Sandi. Lots of helpful advice for us guys you have just provided! I so wish my W had been willing to go to the lengths you went to with your H to try and make him understand the emotional needs you had. I got the gave up and done from her very clearly, but feel like if she really tried to help me understand I would have been able to get it. The pillow talk and words of affirmation such easy things a man could provide if he truly realized how important they were. Sad we guys struggle so badly to get out of our own opinionated minds on how we think you ladies should feel, instead of really allowing ourselves to open our narrow minds to the idea that you ladies may see things completely differently. Again very helpful words! Thank you!

B

[RR17]

Just a little Journaling:

Last night W and I went to grab a burger at the local mall. (man, Brick & Morter retail is in the crapper, for so close to Christmas) She suggested it and D16 wasn't interested. It was nice. I got a bit miffed when she took a call as soon as we sat down from a co-worker about the company's impending move. I wanted to throw some attitude but did not. This is progress for me. It's the little victories.
Anyway, we walked around the mall and enjoyed each other's company. W seems like Quality Time is her Love Language. I have read the book, it was after BD#1 and she said she did too. When she took the quiz she couldn't answer the questions. I helped her. It was kind of a mess because I brought up that she couldn't answer the questions in MC. That was 5 years ago.
After the mall, we came home and watched "I Tonya". Again quality time. 10 pm rolls around and I go up to the MBR after saying goodnight. I looked for the appropriate time for touch but never saw the opportunity. Less is better, right?


I also want to point out, for the benefit of all here, that although most of us don't GAL enough and Detach, more of the same isn't always the answer. Also, we all don't have NGS.
We are very similar, but not exactly. The same remedies don't always apply all of the time. There are stages to this stuff. I really couldn't GAL any more than I have.. I've got so many hobbies and activities outside of my MR. I'm not going to add any more.
Detaching doesn't mean that you will never be affected by rejection. It doesn't. If you were single and got shot down by a stranger you can still feel like crap. You're not attached to that stranger. It's part of being human. Detachment is a process and still, you will never be 100% detached unless you get divorced and are with somebody else. Think about it. Even when you are sufficiently Detached for DB purposes you will slip. You will slip because you still have feelings for this person. Otherwise, you wouldn't be here.

I plan to intentionally maintain a healthy level of Detachment in all of my relationships, from here on out. I see the value. I see how not being detached is destructive and really just a control issue. It's bata material you NGS types.

I don't even pretend to be any kind of expert, but I am learning and there are some truths that I believe I have figured out. It is always easier to look at other's sitchs and think, well they just need to... It is difficult to see your own faults and progress.

Thanks again Sandi, and all of you that take the time to read and comment. It is strange for me to feel a bizarre level of emotional intimacy with a bunch of strangers that I will never meet.

[neffer]

It is strange for me to feel a bizarre level of emotional intimacy with a bunch of strangers that I will never meet.

...well you’ll never know...here insert John Lighgow’s Twilight Zone last scene...with the ambulance driver...and the music of course.

Did I say patience today RR?

Patience.

[sandi2]

Anyway, we walked around the mall and enjoyed each other's company. W seems like Quality Time is her Love Language. I have read the book, it was after BD#1 and she said she did too. When she took the quiz she couldn't answer the questions. I helped her. It was kind of a mess because I brought up that she couldn't answer the questions in MC. That was 5 years ago.

My H is much the same way when it comes to answering questions like that. In fact, I can't get him to participate in any type of "quiz". I think that's one reason he would not agree to attend MC, b/c he says he doesn't know how to talk about his feelings, etc. It was always very frustrating to me, b/c I would end up doing all the talking, and he would sit there and make no response whatsoever. If I said nothing.....then it was complete silence.

I also want to point out, for the benefit of all here, that although most of us don't GAL enough and Detach, more of the same isn't always the answer. Also, we all don't have NGS.

You are correct, every man on the board does not have NGS. Based on my observations the past 11 1/2 years on the board (to date) and cases IRL, when there is a wayward W, the chances of her having a H with NGS is extremely high. On the other hand, where there is a WAW, the chances her H has NGS is much lower. I don't think it is necessarily 100% either way. I do believe men with NGS need to become educated about it, for their sake and the sake of their future relationships...….and just day to day interaction with people.

[RR17]

All women are complicated to men. I suggest you not look for excuses to hug her, until she gets more comfortable with your other non-sexual touches. I also suggest you not quiz her about having whether or not she has a problem with you touching her in some manner. I'd try to explain, but it's complicated. wink Just judge by her body language, and if she tenses or pulls away.....then don't try again for a while. I know I continue to tell you, but please don't over kill by trying to do too much too soon. You have to ease into this.

Subscribing to the notion of "Don't overdo it". I have been looking for the right opportunity to initiate casual non-sexual touch. This has been difficult. The first couple of Touches are bound to cause attention and I want them to be natural. That and I have been under the weather the last few days. But I am ready to seek the right opportunity. Free of expectation. Unattached to her response.
I will report back as to my experience.

[AnotherStander]

Subscribing to the notion of "Don't overdo it". I have been looking for the right opportunity to initiate casual non-sexual touch. This has been difficult. The first couple of Touches are bound to cause attention and I want them to be natural.

I took a communications class years ago and they talked about the power of touching someone, and talked about the best areas to touch casually to make someone feel more comfortable with you without feeling threatened. The number one spot was the shoulder/ upper back. So perhaps if she is showing you something on a phone, computer or magazine you touch her shoulder while looking at it over her shoulder, that sort of thing. Number two spot was elbow, they were suggesting if you shake hands you reach out with your other hand and lightly touch/grasp their elbow. Can also work if you are talking to someone casually, reach out and touch their elbow for emphasis like "oh and get this...". Touching hands is also OK as long as it's not a hand-holding thing, but done more for emphasis similar to touching the elbow. No face or neck touching, that's getting too personal. Same with lower back, that is reserved for someone you are intimate with. Obviously anything below the waist is off limits.

[RR17]

Thanks AS. All good points. The waist or small of the back seem like easy targets but I can see how it could be too forward at this point.

I am reminded that W has felt my forehead twice in that last two days to see if I have a fever.

[sandi2]

I have been looking for the right opportunity to initiate casual non-sexual touch. This has been difficult. The first couple of Touches are bound to cause attention and I want them to be natural.

Don't over think the non-sexual touching, b/c it should be a natural human response.

Also, don't put your hand on her....and leave it there while you examine her facial expression or reaction. Know what I mean? You simply touch her and move on. Don't draw attention to it. If you've not touched her since we suggested the non-sexual touching...…..then you are over thinking it. What are you waiting on? Looking for the right opportunity sounds like you are making it too complicated.

How long has it been since you patted her back or touched her shoulder? I'm thinking it must have been a while, if you are looking for an opportunity.

When she's standing at the kitchen counter/stove preparing dinner, do you ever walk up and look over her shoulder and ask what's for supper, or what is she making? That's a perfect time to touch her. Most anytime you walk and stand by her, or pass by her, you can give a light touch.

When you were walking around in the mall, there wasn't at least once that you could have touched her?

So, tell me how you two tell each other goodbye when you leave for work?

Have you been playing, teasing a little, flirting just a bit, laughing, and generally being fun for her to be around you?

Sorry to hear you've been somewhat under the weather. When she feels of your forehead, just lightly pat her arm. It's just a way to show you appreciate her caring that you might have a fever. No words, just a light tough.

Does she call you by a pet name? Do you have a pet name for her, and are you currently using it?

[RR17]

Have you been playing, teasing a little, flirting just a bit, laughing, and generally being fun for her to be around you?

Yes! And one thing that I find revealing, although I'm not sure what it reveals is W's occasional use of self-deprecating humor. This from a woman that struggled with taking responsibility. Who was usually overly defensive.
But yes we do those things.

Don't over think the non-sexual touching, b/c it should be a natural human response.

I haven't really thought about it too much. I realize that it is not a temp-take opportunity. I've just been busy and sick. I did try these touches a month or so back and wasn't consistent and when I Over-Hugged and W said it made her feel a bit uneasy I stopped all touch. There has been one appropriate hug since that I shared here.

So, tell me how you two tell each other goodbye when you leave for work?

I have a home office and she comes up and says she is leaving and we discuss any business and tell each other to have a good day. No pet name. I used to call her Sweetie but stopped after BD#2. If she ever had one for me, I don't remember. Maybe "Pappy" it's been a long time.

I will initiate soon and not temp-take yet report back.

[LoneWlf]

RR- you have been given some good advice here. Nothing more for me to add except that I wish you all the best. Keep strong! Blessings!

[RR17]

Catching up after being sick for a week. First time in several years. Nothing serious but just a nagging respiratory cold. A few times I traveled out only to be reminded that the illness was not done. Fascinating stuff, right?

W was attentive. She didn't wait on me hand and foot, but she is not that kind. Several times she asked me what she could do for me. There was an honest concern in her voice. I know what she leaks out when she is just asking out of obligation. This was not the case.

We went to my company Christmas party and because of my condition stayed the minimum amount of time. I used the opportunity to squeeze in a few of the HSPTs (none sexual physical touches). W seemed eager to go to this party which was different from the HS reunion that we blew off earlier this fall. This may be due to the fact that W knows more people at my company party.

So here is where I confess.
We had our picture taken several times at the party and I shared the highlights on social media. (see where this is going?) Silly photo booth type pictures where you use props and hats to make silly looks. My audience made their typical mixture of complementary and sarcastic remarks. W had a male friend from the past comment "What a beautiful elf". Okay, I know I posted the picture. The comment is tame and even "to be expected". Still, I take note. A backstory for those that don't know or remember. 5 years ago it was a posted picture of my W that led to her EA. It starts with a compliment and transgresses into pictures and proposed liaisons etc..
So it hit a nerve. I acknowledged it and kept it in a healthy perspective. No fault of hers. (my nature is one of an External Locus, meaning I don't usually fall victim to circumstance. In fact, I tend to take personal responsibility for stuff I really never had control over. The discovery of this EA 5 years ago has had a profound and lasting scar on my being like nothing I have ever experienced in my life. I hate the fact that 5 years later stupid triggers still have any effect)
Next day W had offered to help me generate an invoice for some billing I needed to submit. Morning comes and she is rushing out the door. I asked why so early and she said she was going to her company warehouse to check on an order. I reminder W that she had agreed to help with the invoice. She said ok I can do it real fast before I go. Well, it was not a "real fast" task. If it was I wouldn't need the help. So things start to escalate. I ask "are you even really going where you say". I know, I know.
W in an honest sounding voice explain more about why she needs to go to the warehouse. I listen. I then apologize for accusing her of possibly lying. I explained about the picture and how it had an effect on me and that I didn't like to be that way. I knew that it was not because of anything that W did. W explained that she saw the comment and thought it might have some effect. She explained the context of their friendship (he grew up a few streets over) and as nondefensive as possible how there was nothing. It all seemed very sincere and yes, remorseful. Now understand W is now delayed from her early start to work. Typically an uncomfortable discussion like this would have her racing out the door. That was not the case this time. W did listen to me explain that I did not like to be this way and how I hated being drawn back to this extremely painful time. No defensive excuses from W. No dismissive running away. W was validating me.

I kept it brief because I felt heard.

I also, against the best advice on this great board, told her in the most non-threatening way I could, that I had never in my adult life gone so long without working toward a goal. I said that I thought that I would be changing this sometime in the next year. W validated and seemed to agree. She said that she was taking things day by day and had no plans on working her way out the door. No mention of anything that is still not as she would like it. I stopped just short of saying that I didn't intend to stay in a sexless marriage. W then asked if she could give me a hug. I replied as long as it didn't make her feel uneasy. She said she would not have initiated if she felt it would.

Overall I think it was a very positive R talk. It was not rehearsed or even intended. Both spoke as well as listened. W showed concern and remorse. I felt heard and didn't need to over explain my feelings.

[neffer]

Little steps forward is moving forward RR. It seems you both are taking about the sitch with less pressure, that´s good imho.

Keep walking you both.

[RR17]

It was a different talk for sure. Thanks neffer

[sandi2]

I'm glad you talked to her about the trigger. I suspect not knowing exactly where the MR stands, would cause you to be vulnerable to responses about her from other guys. I don't know if your W has tried to educate herself about how the LBH is affected and what she needs to do to help you feel safe in the MR.

I

ask "are you even really going where you say".

Wow! Well, it takes patience from both sides of the street when you are healing from an A. Next time, just tell her something happened that triggered some bad feelings and you need to talk it out.

Anyway, not keeping those feelings pent up and talking about it was the right thing. I have a couple of suggestions. One is to try to bring up the subject without sounding as if you are accusing her of something. B/c if she feels you suspect she's not being honest or is guilty of something...….she may immediately throw up the defensive walls. If she is trying to be good and do the right thing...….then accusatory words could be a trigger for her, too. Know what I mean? Although you have a right to your feelings, she needs encouragement too......if she is, indeed, choosing to do the right thing.

The second suggestion I have is to stick to one subject when you have these types of interaction. In other words, don't bring up the subject of sex, when you've been discussing something else. I think it's best to have a shorter conversation about one topic at a time, rather than going into several additional subjects. Make sense?

[RR17]

Thanks, Sandi, points well taken. Although this was completely unplanned, I'm am all about intentionality. Best to be prepared.

So change seems to be in the air. I'm not reading too much into this because I'm done mindreading, at least for now.

So W informs me that she is making a breakfast casserole for Christmas morning. For many years I have suggested that I make a breakfast casserole and W has poo-pooed the idea. I know this seems petty and trivial but it's kind of worth noting. These type endeavors have happened before when W decides to step out and take a creative chance. Last time it was painting furniture.
I think it means she's happy?

Now get this. She asks me today if I mind if she invites her parents over for Christmas morning. I love my in-laws and said of course. This is very unusual as we plan to go to their house for dinner Christmas night. She also shares that she will be making Mimosa at breakfast. All wild stuff for the W.
She as well as her family are people of ritual. Consistent and predictable. It is usually me that introduces something new and different. Anyway, all I'm saying is that something is different and it doesn't seem bad.

The continual respect and consideration continues.

[neffer]

And it means she has projects. That implies commitment. It´s advisable to have some kind of common projects together. We have wrote some about it, remember? Well, that´s good, right? Keep taking steps forward.

Merry Christmas RR. My best wishes for you and your family.

[RR17]

Neffe I agree.

And we have discussed how the two of us have had common projects recently. I think this is an individual thing. We all know our Ws and I have seen this type of individual creative outburst before. I believe the prudent thing is to be supportive but allow her to do her own thing. Of course, if she wants me to participate I will be available. Time will tell.

[Adam04]

Hey RR,

Read your sitch and jumped to the back threads to see how you doing. Keep it up, looks like things are going in the right direction.

Great to see you working with the advice on the touch charges and the other recommendations on how to better improve communicating with W.

Have a Merry Christmas!

[RR17]

Thanks, Adam.

I will say that although things may seem on a positive path there is still uncertainty at many corners. I am optimistic but with a red pill cautious eye. I believe this to be a healthy approach yet not foolproof. The longer this trend continues without proper reconciliation the more I feel prone to let my guard down. While continuing to work to maintain Detachment, expectations can tend to sneak in. This vulnerability is unsettling at times. My main intention is to not let it shape my interactions with the W any more than possible. I am human and still slip and make mistakes. I have a plan for the time and intend to follow this plan until I rationally decide to change it. I can't and won't continue on this trajectory indefinitely.
Several guys on here are so supportive and remind me to be patient. They are correct, but without some movement, it can become unmaintainable over months and months.

Wishing all much peace this holiday season.

[RR17]

Sandi, I reread your last entry and believe there was a misunderstanding.

The second suggestion I have is to stick to one subject when you have these types of interaction. In other words, don't bring up the subject of sex, when you've been discussing something else. I think it's best to have a shorter conversation about one topic at a time, rather than going into several additional subjects. Make sense?

During our last R talk, I stopped short of saying that I don't want to remain in a sexless marriage. Meaning I didn't bring it up.

That said and I'm sure I will get jumped on for this but I'm bringing it here first. I am contemplating bringing it up early in the new year.
Thoughts are that it has been long enough and something is telling me that not bringing it up is more bata capitulation that just needs to stop. Time to put a foot down. It has been nearly 7 months and much good has come from the break, but enough is enough.
As for the good?
Well, for me it has stopped the ineffective pattern of temp-taking with sex. The idea that If she is sleeping with me then things are good.
For her? Well during tumultuous times W had stated several times that "All I wanted her for was sex" meaning that I really didn't like her for much else. During this break, not just from the sex but from any pressure to have it, I believe that I have proven that I do in fact like her for other reasons.

What I would appreciate is some feedback on the most constructive approach.
Thoughts on the pros and cons of saying anything.

Thanks as always.

[LH19]

Thoughts are that it has been long enough and something is telling me that not bringing it up is more bata capitulation that just needs to stop. Time to put a foot down. It has been nearly 7 months and much good has come from the break, but enough is enough.

I agree with you but there are a couple things I would like to comment on. Your delivery has to be spot on. You have to communicate to her that you love her you adore her and you desire her and you can't be just friends with her. If you come off demanding, pouty or being a dick you will not get the result you're looking for from her.

Also, what if she declines your request? Are you willing to walk and never look back unless she changes her mind? A true alpha would never agree to be in a relationship with a woman who will not have sex with him.

IMO you need to have these things worked out before having the conversation.

[sandi2]

Okay, thanks for the clarification.

Remind me, please, are you sleeping in separate bedrooms? If not, then my advice would be to shoot for sleeping in the same bed. Give her time to get comfortable with the physical closeness again. You should be able to recognize her body language, even if she doesn't say anything about what she wants or don't want. You may have to just sleep in the same bed for a while and very gradually increase the touching. You can put your arm around her, snuggle, hold her hand, stroke her arms, back, face and hair......but don't go anywhere around the cookie. If she can't relax and respond in a positive way to these type of touches while in the bed, then she may have intimacy issues. I don't mean she is afraid of her H or of having intercourse, but she has psychological issues that could stem from several things. She may not recognize it as fear of intimacy, but rather thinks something is wrong with her (sees herself as being abnormal) .....or assumes something is wrong in the MR.

So, for some women who have intimacy issues, it may not be the actual intercourse they try to avoid, but the length of time the H spends trying to warm her up sexually. I suppose most men have heard that it takes women longer.....yada, yada. But that warm up time is the intimate part for her......when all her insecurities start talking in her head. It's like when he's wanting the lights left on so he can see her naked body; or he's giving special attention to an area she feels self conscious about; or if he wants to introduce a new position and she feels fat and awkward: or when he tries to give her more passionate kisses...…. but she doesn't seem into it. She might agree to have sex, if he'll just get on with it and not take a long time trying to "warm her up". Women with intimacy problems may not welcome long, wet kisses, or fondling her breast for an hour. She just doesn't seem to warm up during this initial stage. She may turn her head and kiss him on the neck or shoulder to avoid direct contact with his open mouth. She may try to rush him through the initial stage to get to the finish line. This is a woman that has some negative issues with intimacy......for whatever reason. It doesn't mean she doesn't love her H. She is the one with the problem.

I read on some website that it has been scientifically proven that men actually do have a one track mind......whereas women have six tracks. That means she may not be able to forget about everything else and just enjoy having sex. The woman with intimacy problems has to get out of her own head...….and with six tracts, that's not so easy sometimes.

And may I add that whenever a woman listens to other women talk about good sex, or she reads erotic novels, or magazine articles...…..she wants to feel what those women claim to experience. She wants to go crazy and have passionate sex, like the books and movies portray...….,and she feels frustrated that she can't be like these other women. She may blame herself, or she may blame her partner, but she's not happy that she's not enjoying sex. My suggestion to the woman is to find out if there are some phycological hang-ups, and if so....then get therapy. It doesn't hurt just to talk to a therapist about it. Sometimes women just don't know how it affects a man, and if she has a negative attitude about it......it turns into a very sensitive subject to discuss when it's just the H & W trying to work it out on their own. There are a lot of books that can teach us about these things......but if she's unwilling, the books do no good on the shelves.

Also, she needs to have a hormone balancing specialist take blood tests. If her sex hormones are not where they need to be, then her sex drive may be in retirement.....but guess what? They have stuff that helps with that problem.

Anyway, if you feel you can't continue on with this arrangement, you might consider approaching her about sleeping in the same bed and on a permanent basis. Sleeping in separate rooms is not going to help the MR get back on track. So, that's a move that needs to be addressed before the sex talk, IMHO. If she won't agree to it, she's probably going to shut you down about sex. If that happens, then the ball has been thrown back to you...….so what is your next move? Are you ready to walk away from her and the M?

Maybe you will find out where the MR stands......and maybe you won't know anymore after approaching her. It's your call.

[Gordie]

RR

Sex has been a very touchy subject for w and me

She dropped the D back in January

And like your situation there was a lack of commitment to reconcile

It has been a long multi year marathon

DB coach said to give it time and to be patient

To focus on getting to know each other again

Being friends

Dating

Touching non sexually

This escalated from not wanting to be in the same room

To proximity

To touching like a friend

To hugs

To pecks on the cheek

To holding hands

And then this past week

To open mouthed kisses and sex

I told her back in January that I did not believe in a sexless marriage

But that there was no need to rush things until we were both ready

So she knew what I believed

And then I waited

[neffer]

Patience RR!

My best wishes for you and your family. Happy new year.

[sandi2]

Come on, RR17, let us hear something.

[RR17]

Okay, well W has been sick for the last week. Not sure if it was what I had because she had a fever and I never did. D19 is still back from college and life has been being put back together from the holidays.

At the onset of her illness W had an angry outburst of sorts.

I in an effort to clean up some finances took the initiative to pay some bills. Mostly my bills some that serve the whole clan. I had just gotten a nice check and I also want to keep my stuff in good shape especially in the event that I may become suddenly single.
W realizes this and because she usually pays most bills decides while I'm out, to write a nasty note along with a budget for next month with alications and place it on my bed in the MBR.
Once discovering, this really pissed me off because I don't need to be told where I can spend money and I don't appreciate this immature form of communication. I think she may have seen 5K missing and instead of inquiring, just jumped to conclusions. I didn't deserve it. I confronted her and handed her back her little budget. It got a little heated but not too bad. Remember she was feverous and bedridden. For the next few days, I checked in occasional and asked if W needed anything. It was difficult to tell if the looks were just nasty because of harboring anger or due to the illness but I didn't really care. There was no shame in my game and I extended the same compassion that she extended to me when I was sick. Ultimately achieving what I had hoped to achieve by confronting her about a sexless marriage. I stuck my foot down. Didn't respond to her trying to control me with nasty attitude and looks. I was differentiated.

Devine Intervention? Perhaps. Actually, I believe it is all divine intervention. Either way, this turn of events has given cause to pause and consider my next action. As of now, I am still leaning toward confronting W about not wanting to stay in a sexless marriage. During our above-mentioned argument, W said, "I need..." at which I responded, "What about my needs?". But no details were discussed.

Anyway, I replaced her expensive, hard to find windshield wiper blades and with her recovery, she seems to have cooled her jets. This is the first time in many months that she has expressed anger. I'm sure the sickness didn't help and I am going to reserve judgment due to the illness. I will note that when and if we reach the point, W needs to work on this harboring of anger.

For others here, you may be used to a W that holds a grudge for several days. For the first decade of my MR, I never experienced this. At least not openly. Anyway, it is only recent years and is still unfamiliar. Meaning I never felt "In the dog house". I guess W was processing anger in more covert ways.
So W has left her sickbed and started to join me again for evening TV. Sometimes she comes and sleeps. BTW, I have never known W to be this sick. Whatever bugs are going around have kicked our butts.

So Sandi, not much happening in the Sexless marriage confrontation conversation.

I appreciate all the advice from everyone. I have taken it into consideration and much of it is what I had already been thinking. The time hasn't simply been right and I have been working on stuff outside of the MR. Enjoying time with D's and being my own man. lol

[neffer]

Keep conversations going and get out of confrontations. Add no pressure. And you know what my advice is...

Enjoy your family RR, that´s great.

[AnotherStander]

I confronted her and handed her back her little budget. It got a little heated but not too bad. Remember she was feverous and bedridden.

Yes she was, and I'm wondering why in the world you decided that was a good time to confront her! I think it's in DR but Michele talks about dispute resolution in one of her books, and discusses good times versus bad times to bring up potentially volatile issues. You know your W's mood cycles. Like maybe she's a morning person. Or maybe she hates mornings but is very mellow in the afternoons. Whatever it is, you already know good times versus bad times to have those convos, use that knowledge. But definitely don't hit her with that stuff when she's sick, wait until she's feeling better.

[RR17]

AnotherStander, she was sick for a week. The issue was time sensitive. I have no regrets.

[RR17]

So D19 goes back to school Sunday. I love seeing her, I'm glad to see her return. I'm also ready for high school to start up again and D16 can return to her regular schedule. W is still on the mend from her cold or Flu.

I will start back up with the touch charges. Unless something changes I plan to wait for the right time and in an as none threatening way as possible, I will tell her that I don't intend to stay in a sexless marriage forever.
I don't want it to be a threatening ultimatum, but I will give it until the end of the year. I'm not sure if I will offer this deadline up without her asking. Then I will STFU. I will listen and validate.

Things are much better but this is no "new normal" that I want to be a part of indefinitely. It's not all about the sex, it's about taking charge and putting a foot down too. I have demonstrated a lot of change over an extended time. I know she sees it.
I do resent these little tactics thought to control me, like her nasty note and withholding sex. I don't need controlling. Regardless of what she decides, she will have to learn to communicate like an adult.

One dynamic that I have really begun to notice, is that both my MIL and SIL wear the pants in their respective relationships. Their Hs wait for instructions. Seek approval. Whatever works for them.

My W has always said and demonstrated that she appreciates an alpha. With me, she got an alpha that is a good cook knows how to sow and couldn't care less about football. Over the last few years, she has become more independent and I have embraced and encouraged it. But I'm not a beta. I have acted like one especially upon BD, but I really realized this once I got my mojo back. This is my unapologetic natural state. I will not be tippy-toeing around this W or any other's optimal time to confront. I won't be manipulated by some "stink eye" or attitude. Guys, this kind of manipulation is Relationship Abuse. My W wouldn't want it. She is allowed to get angry. My response and lack of emotional reaction is just what I think needs to happen more often.

Wish me luck. I am in no hurry but I plan is to do this by months end.

[RR17]

"And now we welcome the new year. Full of things that have never been."
—Rainer Maria Rilke

I read this in a Psychology article and thought of this group. As every day brings opportunity, a new year brings closure on the last year and promises of change and new ways.

I know that during my darkest days of DB the thing that helped the most was stopping and breathing an reminding myself that if I could just make it through that day, that tomorrow would be different. Most of the time it was different. We strive to work on ourselves and to captain our interactions with our spouses. Not controlling the outcomes but in exercising our self-control. How we respond and don't react. Self-differentiation is a better attitude than No Expectations. We are human and will always have expectations. Our attachment to these expectations is where we gain control. Not of our WAW/WW, not of our MR but of our own emotional state.

Anyway, no new updates here. I have continued to ponder my intentions to communicate to my W that I don't intend to remain in a sexless marriage indefinitely. Both the pros and cons. There is no hurry and "the how" is more important than the "what" that I say. IMO
I will look for an opportunity to use the touch charges. It has turned out to be challenging after so many months.

[ovrrnbw]

Hi RR,

I can only imagine where you are mentally after going at this sitch for as long as you have. That sounds draining. By draining, I mean emotionally tiring. But hopefully you aren't too emotionally attached right now and can find some happiness elsewhere and allow yourself to think through this on how you want to act. You don't sound super fired up, but I can tell you don't want to remain in this sexless marriage. And not only that, not having sex means you aren't connecting on an emotional level too, so I'm sure that's part of your frustration.

Which reminds me, those touch charges...I think that's a great way to take the bull by the horns and spur some positive emotions in both of you. Anything else you can think of? What's her LL?

Good luck.

[sandi2]

I will tell her that I don't intend to stay in a sexless marriage forever.
I don't want it to be a threatening ultimatum, but I will give it until the end of the year. I'm not sure if I will offer this deadline up without her asking. Then I will STFU. I will listen and validate.

Do you mean you will confront her about the SSM and then give her to the end of the year to change it? Man, you have a lot of patience! I'm sure you've heard that women need to make up before they want to have sex. Men want to have sex in order to make up. That situation can become the stand off throughout the M, b/c each spouse is waiting on the other one to make the necessary moves.

It kind of sounds like your plan is to lay it out to her that you aren't going to stay in a sexless M forever, and then wait for her to deliver. I have two thoughts about it. One is that it may shock her a little to be approached with a blunt statement of this sort. Frankly, I don't think it is a bad thing to do, b/c we women tend to think we control how much sex the M has. Sorry to say that there are some who don't really understand or care to consider what it does to a man to go without it for long periods of time. Maybe she needs that frank realization to hit her in the face that you don't have to live without sex, and you won't. As long as you realize the risk involved in making that statement to her.

My second thought is about what you do after making that statement. If you have the idea you'll tell her, and then you'll sit and wait on her to initiate sex.......you may be waiting a longer time than you thought. That sit and wait on her attitude can result in building a higher barrier between the two of you.

I want to encourage you to think of ways of breaking this down as you try to reach your main goal of having a M with sex. I've already suggested to start giving non-sexual touches, and that was around the first of December. Here it is eight days into a new year, and you are still waiting for the right opportunity. Come on, RR!! The woman was sick in bed, and you couldn't touch her face to see if she felt too warm, or pat her shoulder when you went to check on her? This isn't good. It means you've gone so long with no type of physical touch that it may well affect the ability to ease back into showing any physical affection. I mean, I understand how a couple gets to this point of no type of touching, but it is really sad and it often reflects their relationship, IMO. You're making this harder than necessary.

So, I'm saying here that you need to take the lead. You say you are an alpha male, and I'm glad to hear it. My dad was an alpha who knew how to cook a few things and he was not a football fan either. Take the initiative to touch her. I doubt she's going to slap you. If you are watching tv and she enters the room, pat the seat beside you and say, "Come over and sit by me, Good Looking". Keep things light and cheery. A woman isn't going to want to make love if there is always tension or coldness between you. You don't have to jump into being a Romeo. Start by consistently trying to have a pleasant, relaxed, atmosphere. Do you have a pet name for her? Are you still calling her by that pet name? If not, then try it. Are the two of you doing activities together? Why not plan to take her somewhere that will just be a day of fun? No emotional pressures applied......just two people having fun and enjoying each other. These are not hard, and sometimes it can be something little that can start to draw the couple closer. But you've got to put in the effort. You can't just say you aren't going to stay in a SSM and then sit down and wait.

((hugs))

[RR17]

I can only imagine where you are mentally after going at this sitch for as long as you have. That sounds draining. By draining, I mean emotionally tiring. But hopefully you aren't too emotionally attached right now and can find some happiness elsewhere and allow yourself to think through this on how you want to act. You don't sound super fired up, but I can tell you don't want to remain in this sexless marriage. And not only that, not having sex means you aren't connecting on an emotional level too, so I'm sure that's part of your frustration.

Which reminds me, those touch charges...I think that's a great way to take the bull by the horns and spur some positive emotions in both of you. Anything else you can think of? What's her LL?

Thanks ovrrnbw. Sex and physical affection is the missing element in the MR. Yea, it's all draining and everyone here has been through the wringer, but that isn't where I'm coming from on this. Personally, I am in a good place (most of the time). I feel that this is something that I need to take control of. And as well all know there is only one person that we can ultimately control within a relationship. And that is our Ws. Just kidding
Point is I feel like I am approaching this from level headed rational approach.

What's her LL? Well, she has never expressed it but if we love in a way that we like to be loved, I would say acts of kindness. I have done plenty of this. Especially around these holidays.

I just want to point out to others BEWARE the mindset that if you do XYZ for your W that she will feel inclined to reciprocate with sex. They don't operate that way. I used to think this way and never understood why it didn't work that way. Well, I've been reading, as many of you have, and the female mind doesn't treat it like an equitable transaction. Given what I have experienced and come to realize, I believe it. Just know this and watch your expectations.

[RR17]

Thanks, Sandi

Do you mean you will confront her about the SSM and then give her to the end of the year to change it? Man, you have a lot of patience! I'm sure you've heard that women need to make up before they want to have sex. Men want to have sex in order to make up. That situation can become the stand off throughout the M, b/c each spouse is waiting on the other one to make the necessary moves.

It kind of sounds like your plan is to lay it out to her that you aren't going to stay in a sexless M forever, and then wait for her to deliver. I have two thoughts about it. One is that it may shock her a little to be approached with a blunt statement of this sort. Frankly, I don't think it is a bad thing to do, b/c we women tend to think we control how much sex the M has. Sorry to say that there are some who don't really understand or care to consider what it does to a man to go without it for long periods of time. Maybe she needs that frank realization to hit her in the face that you don't have to live without sex, and you won't. As long as you realize the risk involved in making that statement to her.

Exactly, I want to both remind, inform, yes, perhaps shock, W to the fact that I too have options and one is to not stay in a sexless marriage.
I believe that my W likes a lot about the changes that have happened in our MR. I believe that she may think that if the MR were to include sex that some of those changes might go away. I have expressed in the past that I have felt that it was a type of "Hold back" in an effort to control. A sign that Everything is honkie dory.

I'm setting a healthy boundary. IMO

My second thought is about what you do after making that statement. If you have the idea you'll tell her, and then you'll sit and wait on her to initiate sex.......you may be waiting a longer time than you thought. That sit and wait on her attitude can result in building a higher barrier between the two of you.

BINGO! This I realize. I can't just wait with bated breath. I will have to manage my own expectation. I realize the agreeing to ease back into a physical relationship and W initiating are on two different levels. In her stubborn mind, I think initiating could be perceived by her as a sort of defeat. Stupid thinking but who knows.

I expect to enact a 2 pronged approach.

I will tell her when the time is right. I will make it as non-threatening as possible. And as stated, STFU. I will allow W to processes it.
I will give her some time to respond. Perhaps initiate or a rebuttal, whatever. I will plan my response which will be to validate and listen, yet STFU.

If after a while I see no movement from W I will try a mild initiation. I know that depending on how this info is received W will not respond well to pressure. Knowing this, I will try to plan my approach from a position of making it easier for W and not of pressured obligation. Understand?

I want to encourage you to think of ways of breaking this down as you try to reach your main goal of having a M with sex. I've already suggested to start giving non-sexual touches, and that was around the first of December. Here it is eight days into a new year, and you are still waiting for the right opportunity. Come on, RR!! The woman was sick in bed, and you couldn't touch her face to see if she felt too warm, or pat her shoulder when you went to check on her? This isn't good. It means you've gone so long with no type of physical touch that it may well affect the ability to ease back into showing any physical affection. I mean, I understand how a couple gets to this point of no type of touching, but it is really sad and it often reflects their relationship, IMO. You're making this harder than necessary.

I got a little tickled reading this. You are so right. Although I did take a few opportunities to feel her head for fever etc. But she was very sick and I didn't get the impression that these touches were received like affectionate touches. This W was sick. I've never seen her so sick in 24 years. She wanted to sleep.
But you are also correct in saying that a couple can go so long without touch that the mear idea seems awkward and almost impossible.
One of my first attempts was not well received. At the beginning of December we went to a Mexican restaurant and as W went into the door in front of me I put my hand softly on her back. She spun around and said, "Why are you pushing me?" Yea, wow. But I did continue. With a bit of trepidation.

Yes, I am going to take the lead. That is what this is more about than just getting my rocks off. Hopefully, I have demonstrated that I don't expect to just sit and wait. That would be an "implied contract". I am simply letting W know where I currently am and what I don't plan to tolerate indefinitely.

Thanks again!

[SteveLW]

I just want to point out to others BEWARE the mindset that if you do XYZ for your W that she will feel inclined to reciprocate with sex. They don't operate that way. I used to think this way and never understood why it didn't work that way. Well, I've been reading, as many of you have, and the female mind doesn't treat it like an equitable transaction. Given what I have experienced and come to realize, I believe it. Just know this and watch your expectations.

THIS^^^^^^^^^^^^

In my own experience, my W is more open to sex based on two things: how she feels about herself and how secure she is our relationship.

How she feels about her herself is related to a lot of things and is very complex. All I can say to Hs is to make sure you are making sure there is room in your budget for hair appointments, nail appointments and the like.

On the second one this is a tricky one. Some Ws feel more sexual and affectionate when they are secure in their MR. "He loves me! So I will love him." My W is the opposite. If she feels too secure in the relationship she starts taking it for granted and stops trying. Obviously this is not the greatest dynamic for a marriage, and something we will continue to explore and work on in MC. What I mean by that is there is a certain level of security and comfort inherent in a marriage.

Women are complex creatures, and we guys don't always realize this. The key is exactly in what RR says: watch expectations. Just because you do X doesn't mean she will want sex that night.

[RR17]

Steve, I will add what I believe is one area that I have gotten in trouble with, in the past. And I imagine I am not the only one, is that when W doesn't want to have sex, it is not always about the H or even the state of the union. So don't take rejection so personally.

I once heard it said that "women have to have a reason to make love, men just need to have a place." Yes, there are exceptions but for the most part, I find this true.

I believe that there are several reasons that W use to want to have sex. Some involve you and many do not.

[RR17]

So today was the Day. After much thought and prayer, I pulled the trigger and told W that I didn't plan to stay in an SSM. I didn't exactly stick to my plan to STFU. We had an R talk.
It went good and parts were less than good. But this has to happen sometimes.

I shared that a SSM has a profound effect on an otherwise healthy male. She listened and it seemed like some new revelation that she never considered.
I explain how to me it had felt that she controlled too much in this MR. She controlled:

Money
respect
Sex

I acknowledged that she may not feel that way but that I did. And that that was not a dynamic that I was used to. nor one that I felt that she respected. She listened like I was sharing ideas that were never considered.

I explained that I wanted her to know that I constantly took her position into consideration. That I didn't always know how she felt but that I tried to imagine how she may have felt and that it mattered to me.

Anyway, as you can imagine several issues were touched on but I figure that you want to hear how she responded.

Today's cryptic message "But, I can't go back"

I validated and then I tried in the most delicate way possible to get her to expand on this. No easy feat. Yea, I get that she doesn't want to but I see this has some associated meanings.
I explained that if she felt that resuming our sex life would somehow grant license for other negative behaviors to return that I didn't see the connection but could understand how she might.
I did point out that she had expressed how at one time she said she felt that the only reason I liked her was for the sex. I said that I had hoped that in the last 7 months that she had seen that that was not the case.

Several times she looked like she was searching for words and because I have a habit of jumping in during the extended silences, I asked her if she had something and she would just say "No".

On a somewhat positive note. While sharing my thoughts and feelings, I told her that many times when she left or said that she was meeting someone that I still struggled with suspicion. The difference now, being that I didn't act on it.
That I appreciated that when she gets a text at a suspicious time and I ask "who's that?" that she didn't get defensive and just answered. She validated.
We discussed how when I first brought up that it had been 6 months and her response was "Me too" like this was something beyond her control that was just happening to her. She said that that was not the meaning, that she was letting me know that she hadn't been with anyone. Which lead to how for the first 15 years of MR I would trust anything she said, but that after lying for a year and a half that luxury was gone. She validated.

I added that not wanting to continue a sexual relationship given that there were so many big improvements in the MR was bound to remind me of how easily she had offered up her body in the EA. That I didn't feel it was productive or fair but that I couldn't help seeing a comparison.
She validated and looked very remorseful. No defensiveness at all.

We discussed how we both liked having separate bedrooms.

Much more was said but these are most of the highlights. I shared that some of the recent challenges were necessary to make the changes and that I believed that God had us right where he wanted. She agreed.

I asked for a hug if it wasn't too awkward. She said it was fine and I then I went on my way.

I am glad that I discussed this plan here even if I didn't stick to it 100%.

If you wonder what's next. I have discussed that in the last several posts and plan to stick with it. Feel free to ask for clarifications.

[SteveLW]

RR, here are my observations:

Moving forward requires these kinds of discussions. DBing is for the period that the WAS is walkaway and potentially wayward, but at some point these kinds of discussions are mandatory. It sounds like this went well. If it hadn't I would strongly suggest that you have the next one in MC. Even though this one went well I strongly suggest MC and having the next one there.

It does sound like your W is over her walkaway thoughts and WW. But I think you know she is still cake eating. Being your W means more than just cohabiting the same household.

You typed: "We discussed how we both liked having separate bedrooms." Why is this? I do not believe a SSM can be solved with this arrangement. Kicking a cheating W out of the MBR is for a purpose. At some point that situation has to change. I've never known a married couple that sleep separately that came closer together because of it. What were your reasons for liking it? I really do not think I could stay in such a marriage. And I do not think a marriage that is already a SSM can have that problem rectified that way.

RR, I haven't been following sitches as closely recently, is your W open to MC? I assume based on this dicussion going well that the EA is over? Most of the time, Ss actively engaged in an A are defensive and do not take kindly to these kinds of discussions. That it went this well says a lot.

[RR17]

First I want to add that during said R talk. I said that I wondered if she had cut out the sex in order to push me to do the dirty work of ending it all. She honestly denied this. I believe it at least on a conscious level.

Moving forward requires these kinds of discussions. DBing is for the period that the WAS is walkaway and potentially wayward, but at some point these kinds of discussions are mandatory. It sounds like this went well. If it hadn't I would strongly suggest that you have the next one in MC. Even though this one went well I strongly suggest MC and having the next one there.

RR, I haven't been following sitches as closely recently, is your W open to MC? I assume based on this dicussion going well that the EA is over? Most of the time, Ss actively engaged in an A are defensive and do not take kindly to these kinds of discussions. That it went this well says a lot.

Steve, this is what I love about you. You seek to understand before placing judgment. BTW, thanks for responding.

I know you follow many threads so a quick refresher. My W ended EA 5 years ago. Yea, I know, when you don't properly reconcile and work to establish trust these betrails linger for a very long time. I have never felt so affected by any event in my history like this one. Initially, I had to choose to trust and heal blah blah blah..
Since BD #2 W has done a lot to aid in the restoration of trust.

#2 My W is a poor communicator. In the past, she was riddled with guilt. W doesn't like MC one bit. We went for over a year, along with IC. She didn't like my sharing especially in front of a 3rd party witness. I hope that one day we can go back to address mature communication but I know that for now, W is not on board with MC.

You typed: "We discussed how we both liked having separate bedrooms." Why is this? I do not believe a SSM can be solved with this arrangement. Kicking a cheating W out of the MBR is for a purpose. At some point that situation has to change. I've never known a married couple that sleep separately that came closer together because of it. What were your reasons for liking it? I really do not think I could stay in such a marriage. And I do not think a marriage that is already a SSM can have that problem rectified that way.

W stated during this segment of the R talk, that when she first moved downstairs that she was mad and then she realized the drop in pressure and liked it.
I like it because I struggle to sleep to begin with and now I can have the MBR to myself and W makes noises in her sleep and besides if I'm not getting to touch, I don't need the temptation laying there next to me. To me, it has been a part of Seld-differentiation. For her? I imagine it has supported a healthy autonomy.

[SteveLW]

RR, thanks. I do remember all of the rehashing now. I also remember saying there was no way she was moving out 5/18! LOL Did that come up at all in the R talk? I am guessing she has pretended as if she never made that declaration.

All valid reasons for the separate sleeping arrangements. But as I said, at some point that has to end for you guys to move forward together. It will difficult if she is not open to MC. My W is very similar to yours. In MC I concentrated on sharing things for myself, let her share what she wanted about herself. Our MC was very good at reading people and could always tell if I was getting too close to an uncomfortable place for my W and shifting it away. She'd eventually come back.

I remember one exchange about the singing app. I said that she still spent too much time on the app and that it was a rough thing for me considering her recent history and that OM was from there. And that it was essentially an online meat market. W started to get uncomfortable, answers started to get evasive. MC redirected. Once W got more comfortable the MC went back to the issue and pointed out that people that couldn't handle certain things should stay away from them. Like the alcoholic not going into a bar, etc. And while she stopped short of saying that my W should stop singing on the app, she did say that it was important for her to be careful with how she did interact on the app. I thought it was handled perfectly.

RR, I really give our MC a lot of credit for our R. Without her I think we are in D proceedings at this point.

[ovrrnbw]

RR,

I must say that even though you may have had a couple of negatives during that talk, it went well overall. How would it have gone a year or 5 years ago? Not as well I bet.

So what has changed? And is that working? I would take notes of those two things and continue to do what works. You guys are actually talking, listening, and understanding each other. You can't make her continue to do this, but I bet she will feel respected if you keep this up. I bet you can start with the talk charges/touch charges, maybe a compliment here and there and start to work your way out of this.

I do still think it takes time either way, so continue the 180's you're making and keep a PMA. Good luck.

[sandi2]

First I want to add that during said R talk. I said that I wondered if she had cut out the sex in order to push me to do the dirty work of ending it all. She honestly denied this. I believe it at least on a conscious level.

Look, I admit that some women use sex to manipulate a man, but the biggest reason a W doesn't want to have sex with her H is b/c she doesn't desire him enough. And the crazy part about it is that a W will tell her H almost anything, other than that she doesn't desire him. Now, the key is finding out why she doesn't desire him.

If your W is experiencing physical or psychological issues that are preventing her from wanting to have sex with you......then for goodness sake, try to get her to see a doctor about her hormone levels, and to see a sex therapist.

RR17, you are doing too much guess work about your W and the status of the MR. You should know if your W is ready to go to work, or not. What did she mean she "could not go back"? Was she referring to sleeping in the same room, or having sex, or do you even know?

I think getting to a healthy sexual MR will be hindered by separate bedrooms. For one reason, sleeping in separate bedrooms automatically cuts out a time where relaxed, unplanned, tender responses to intimacy usually takes place. Otherwise, one of you would need to make your intentions or request for sex known in advance of going to bed. Once sex is over, then you each go back to separate rooms. I think women like to feel the physical closeness, without it always leading to sex. There is a certain feeling of security that comes from laying in the arms of her husband as she is drifting off to sleep. If he never goes to bed with her except when he wants sex......it could leave her feeling resentful. Women like to allow the natural process that leads up to making love. Whereas, men want to know where it's going before proceeding.

I've known older couples who had to have separate bedrooms, due to health or sleeping problems. However, it does decrease the periods of intimacy. I believe it is important, at least for a W, for her H to go to bed with her every night to share that time together in bed. Being in bed, cuddling, talking, or just laying close to each other offers a sense of intimacy, even if they don't have sex. Then, if one needs to go sleep in another room for health reasons.....so be it. Once a couple establishes that habit of having separate bedrooms.....it is very difficult to start sleeping in the bed together again.

Look at how neither of you show non-sexual touches. It is a very bad habit that comes from the lack of emotional intimacy and physical closeness. It should be the most natural thing in the world.....and yet, you can't seem to find an opportunity to touch her. If you can't touch her in non-sexual ways, or she reacts from a non-sexual touch.....then this MR needs professional help.

I understand you have your needs, and I'm not suggesting you settle for a SSM. Do you just want to have sex when you need it, or do you want to have a close, intimate relationship where both of you have your needs met? Maybe you can approach her and ask what her emotional needs are. What does she want in the relationship? If she can't talk about it, or you feel too awkward, then again.....I suggest MC and/or sex therapy. It is really, really tough getting the MR back on track without help.

Hope to hear a little more often from you.

[RR17]

Thanks, everyone!

Yes, I think the talk went very well. I see suggestions that recommend going a different direction from my initial plan. As of now, I don't see a reason to stray from that plan. W processes things much slower than I do.

I will reiterate. This was not totally about getting my W in the sack. It was about putting my foot down. Expressing my feelings and not having any expectations. Setting a boundary.

No, this R talk could never have happened like this 6 months ago.

When you have a poor communicator you have to read things into both their words and actions. What did she mean she said, "could not go back"? Who knows? Believe me, I asked and only got this sad look and a repeat. I told her that if she thought that resuming our sex life would make all things go back to where they were, I said that I didn't see that as the case. I had to be very careful not to rationalize her feelings. That never works. Not long term anyway.

One thing that I will add is she said, while trying to, as she said, not be mean, was that she didn't get anything from it except an orgasm.
My response was that in that case, we would need to work on that. One more thing I blame on poor communication.

I imagine that if this is to progress, we will have sex before any moving back into the MBR. Right now the "arm's length" intimacy that we share is in our TV/movie time together. W really seems to value this time together. Things are trepidacious. Proceeding with caution. W says she was done when she had the EA. (she just forgot to tell me). A lot has changed since.
We continue to work on joint projects. Right now it is D16's problem teacher. W is a taskmaster and working together goes a long way for her.

Remember, we've had MC. Three different ones. It didn't go well. I am open to it but W knows that we have made more progress without.

I'll expand on these responses after more thought.

[SteveLW]

RR, agreed that no one hear knows your sitch and your W better than you do. I can understand completely since my W exhibits many of the same attributes as you.

WARNING, TMI below:

My W doesn't orgasm during intercourse. In fact it takes mechanical apparatus for her to achieve orgasm. When we were younger she was open to including that in our sex life. After this latest BD, when I've raised the prospect she was completely closed off to the idea. Last time I brought it up she was a little more open to it, it wasn't a hard and fast no, more of a we'll see. I think as she gets more comfortable with our intimacy, and things continue to improve and we grow closer, she will once again be open to it.

My point? Things can change. But more slowly for some than others. Maybe she never will, but just because she says she gets "nothing out of it except an orgasm" doesn't mean she'll always feel that way. Also, eventually she might realize that that is a pretty cool thing to get out of it!

[RR17]

Lol, Steve, she got 2 or 3 everytime. I only take a little credit because I learned her combination. Some girls are just easier than others.

You'd think that'd be enough reason, right? Funny thing is that I think my W has to get "outside herself" to do it. She has always been like this and I've read that it is not unusual. So to be present and emotionally involved in the sex acts against the goal of climax. Yea, crazy stuff. Perhaps this is the reason she doesn't get more out of it?

I think Sandi hit the nail on the head. No revelation to me. She simply doesn't desire me right now. I get it. I also now believe that all the touch charges and waiting in the world would never have gotten us there. I believe that what I did may just be what get us closer. Time will tell and I have to start a new thread.

[RR17]

New thread http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2832830&#Post2832830