M 53 W 54, M since 98 D15, D19 8/2013 discovered EA, W maintained contact with OM until 10/14 7/2/17 W said she wanted S, 7/25/17 moved out of MBR 12/17 W says moving out 5/18, W still in home.
Thanks neffer. And thank you Rose888, AnotherStander, DejaVu6 and FlySolo. I do appreciate your input.
These things happen and at least for me, it takes some time and feedback to understand what exactly did just happen. As for winners and losers? I'm interested in moving toward a healthy R.
It sometimes gets frustrating when although I have tried my best to paint an accurate unbiased picture of the turn of events and still my eloquence fails me.
As for any motive? Well, that would assume that it was premeditated. It was not.
As I read some of these responses I sometimes cringe. You're correct, she didn't want to have sex. I would have no way of knowing this without initiating. All signals seemed Green. Guess what? I don't like to get rejected either. Yes, it was pressure. If she had said yes, would it still seem like pressure? Back before BD, this time of the week was a favorable time to initiate. Hindsight's 20/20. Every other week I am serving at our church. This time? I did nothing except supposedly have a look, which W could never have seen across the dim room and she didn't have her glasses on anyway. Why did I say "Because I said so"? Because I didn't have a good reason. I hadn't planned this out. I was pissed about the ridicule and wanted, no I felt I deserved a more honest answer.
I will say that there was a win. The win being that we have moved on fairly rapidly. W came home last night and started telling me that the heat in her old building isn't working and rain leaks into the closet blah blah blah... I stopped what I was doing. Which was composing a response on this DB forum. lol. I gave her my full attention. She didn't notice my haircut, but what's new? We watched an hour of classic TV and went to our respective bedrooms.
All in all, this is positive progress. In the past, W would have held onto her position (that I was ridiculous for thinking..) regardless of the fact that she had admitted it, and would have harbored resent for at least a day or two. She would have never listened to my position (that all I wanted was honest communication) without judgment. Yet now she did.
Making sausage and DBing isn't pretty but can be well worth it.
M 53 W 54, M since 98 D15, D19 8/2013 discovered EA, W maintained contact with OM until 10/14 7/2/17 W said she wanted S, 7/25/17 moved out of MBR 12/17 W says moving out 5/18, W still in home.
None of us do. But this entire process is one rejection after another (big and small). The little recoil from our touch, the little side step when you walk past, the looking down when you catch their eyes. And it [censored]. We are all left wondering what, if any, our worth is. I think that's where db'g, 180 and GAL comes in. It helps us deal with it in a way that is healthy. Yes, it is a consolation prize, but it is a prize none the less and sometimes that is all we have. Eventually, if it progresses towards D, hopefully we are in a place where it is all we need.
Originally Posted by RR17
As for any motive? Well, that would assume that it was premeditated. It was not.
I know, but it was less about motive and more about expectations (hers not yours). Whenever I WFH and H was also home, he (or I) would initiate. He would drop the girls off at school, come back, and we would spend half an hour or so upstairs. Like you, we often didn't have the house on our own so we took advantage. In the months after BD, we still continued with this routine. But it was not the same. There was an atmosphere (we can still do this, but we can't look each other in the eye any other time). As the months drew on I started noticing that he wouldn't come back after dropping the girls off. He would go to the gym, have breakfast there, read the paper and then do a workout, sometimes he would also have lunch. Was he avoiding me because he thought I expected sex. Absolutely. Did it hurt like a MF. Yes it absolutely did because this man couldn't keep his hands off me right up until the day he told me that he wasn't sure he 'loved me like that'.
Originally Posted by RR17
Hindsight's 20/20.
Hindsight's a [censored] but it does allow us to think about how we could do things better in the future. That's the advantage of this forum. You get objective feedback from people who know what you're going through but who aren't clouded with the same emotional baggage as you when looking at your sitch.
We have enough of our own emotional baggage to deal with trying to navigate our own sitch's .
Now get back on the horse (something that is said to me on this forum frequently :))
I'm glad that you can see the positives in it. It sounds like you're doing really well. One small hiccup but you pulled through it.
I typed this in your previous thread but when I submitted it it was already locked:
Originally Posted by RR17
Dang, I did a really poor job of explaining. There was never any discussion of sex, yesterday. None. W asked what that look is for. I said that I thought she was going to this new church with her friend to avoid being alone here with me. That's it.
Aaaah OK I get it now.
Quote
She ridiculed that idea. Acting as if it was the most ridiculous idea and furthest from the truth.
Since you are dipping your tow into recon, it is OK to start sharing your feelings a little so I don't think you did anything wrong about telling her you felt like she was running away and why. That part is fine. I just think putting your foot down about her going was inappropriate. I think a better response would have been something like "it may sound crazy to you but you asked me what I was feeling and I expressed it to you, my feelings are valid to me no matter what you think of them and I would appreciate it if you would try to respect that." And try to say it in a "conversation" tone of voice, not angrily. Then you let her go do whatever she wants.
Quote
Once I told her that I didn't want her to go, she admitted to not wanting to be there and be possibly approached about either sex or an R discussion. The very things that I told her that I was thinking were her motivation to go.
Have you ever heard that saying "would you rather be 'right' or 'happily married'?" I get this sense that you really want to be "right" (which is a nice guy syndrome thing by the way, and one I personally am too familiar with). But what does that accomplish? Because in the same way your feelings are valid no matter what she thinks of them, SO ARE HERS. Her feelings are that if she stays then you will pressure her into sex or an R talk. Those are her feelings, whether they are factually "right" or not. And your response to those feelings should be to validate. "I hear you saying you felt you had to leave because you were afraid I would pressure you for sex, I am sorry I made you feel that way." Then let her go!
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BTW, what is a "NMMNG "covert contract"?
NMMNG is shorthand for the book No More Mister Nice Guy. A covert contract is one that a person concocts in their own mind but never expresses to someone else. So in this case, you expect her to stay home but you probably never expressed that to her so now you have a covert contract. She says she wants to go to church and you give her a nasty look (passive/aggressive). She asks about the look, you have the convo, and then you tell her she can't go (controlling). So you are punishing her for not meeting the terms of a covert contract she knew nothing about. Have you read NMMNG? If not you should. Another classic example of a covert contract is an H does something for his W expecting sex out of it. A foot rub, a back rub, making a meal, whatever. She just sees it as a nice gesture. Then when he doesn't get sex in return, he gets pouty and gives her the silent treatment. So her perception is he did something nice, then suddenly gets all pouty for no reason. She asks what's wrong and he says nothing. Then maybe he yells at her for something totally unrelated, like she left a towel on the floor. Passive/aggressive. Covert contracts are relationship killers. NMMNG addresses how to make requests and be very clear about it. Ask for what you want. "How about I give you a foot rub, and then maybe later you can put on something naughty and we can have some play time." Nothing covert about that, LOL! I had a lot of NG tendencies when I was married. I've ditched most of them and am shockingly forward with my GF, I have a feeling the things we talk about would shock most NG's out there in how blatantly forward and even aggressive they are. But my GF loves it. Most women do love a man who takes control.
A note about the above to others who may be reading, "asking for what you want" and taking control of things is for a healthy relationship, or one in piecing. It's not an approach to use with a WAS though. Getting rid of NG tendencies is important but you have to save this "being forward" approach for piecing or your next relationship!
You talk a lot about "honest communication," and you seem to think that your wife saying "maybe" when she really thinks "no" is not honest communication.
Do I have that correct?
If so, I think you need to adjust your expectations.
It does sound like your wife would benefit from learning to express her thoughts and feelings more directly. But I think it is unrealistic to expect her to adopt a communication style that avoids the sort of social hedging that most women (most people?) use and understand.
Sometimes the way you talk about communications gives me the impression that the only communication you think is honest is communication that fits the Asperger's stereotype. If that's a true reflection of your attitude, then you need to change, not just your wife.
Me: 44 H: 44 Kids: 20, 16, 16, and 10 Together/Married: 22 years H announced he was emotionally detached and considering D: 4/4/16 H announced he is going to try to stay and reconnect: 5/1/16
Since you are dipping your tow into recon, it is OK to start sharing your feelings a little so I don't think you did anything wrong about telling her you felt like she was running away and why. That part is fine. I just think putting your foot down about her going was inappropriate. I think a better response would have been something like "it may sound crazy to you but you asked me what I was feeling and I expressed it to you, my feelings are valid to me no matter what you think of them and I would appreciate it if you would try to respect that." And try to say it in a "conversation" tone of voice, not angrily. Then you let her go do whatever she wants.
I absolutely agree and if the ridiculous display of absurdity hadn't happened and I was better prepared that would be my intended approach. Not blaming the W. I was caught off guard. Since venturing into recon territory I have had to catch myself. It can be tricking opening up while staying guarded.
Quote
Have you ever heard that saying "would you rather be 'right' or 'happily married'?" I get this sense that you really want to be "right" (which is a nice guy syndrome thing by the way, and one I personally am too familiar with). But what does that accomplish? Because in the same way your feelings are valid no matter what she thinks of them, SO ARE HERS. Her feelings are that if she stays then you will pressure her into sex or an R talk. Those are her feelings, whether they are factually "right" or not. And your response to those feelings should be to validate. "I hear you saying you felt you had to leave because you were afraid I would pressure you for sex, I am sorry I made you feel that way." Then let her go!
Quote BTW, what is a "NMMNG "covert contract"?
NMMNG is shorthand for the book No More Mister Nice Guy. A covert contract is one that a person concocts in their own mind but never expresses to someone else. So in this case, you expect her to stay home but you probably never expressed that to her so now you have a covert contract. She says she wants to go to church and you give her a nasty look (passive/aggressive). She asks about the look, you have the convo, and then you tell her she can't go (controlling). So you are punishing her for not meeting the terms of a covert contract she knew nothing about. Have you read NMMNG? If not you should. Another classic example of a covert contract is an H does something for his W expecting sex out of it. A foot rub, a back rub, making a meal, whatever. She just sees it as a nice gesture. Then when he doesn't get sex in return, he gets pouty and gives her the silent treatment. So her perception is he did something nice, then suddenly gets all pouty for no reason. She asks what's wrong and he says nothing. Then maybe he yells at her for something totally unrelated, like she left a towel on the floor. Passive/aggressive. Covert contracts are relationship killers. NMMNG addresses how to make requests and be very clear about it. Ask for what you want. "How about I give you a foot rub, and then maybe later you can put on something naughty and we can have some play time." Nothing covert about that, LOL! I had a lot of NG tendencies when I was married. I've ditched most of them and am shockingly forward with my GF, I have a feeling the things we talk about would shock most NG's out there in how blatantly forward and even aggressive they are. But my GF loves it. Most women do love a man who takes control.
I have not dug into this NGS which I have believed to be a nice term for Beta Male. Perhaps I'm wrong. lol I just never thought it applied. Although I dabbled in NGS upon initial BD as many here do. I retrieved my testicles.
I do have extensive experience in personality testing and I have always been what is called a "High Justice". I have damaged a few relationships in an attempt to be right. It has also served me well. So you are correct. I can see how needing to be right could be beta behavior. I simply want to see justice. Yea I know, blame my dad.
One thing that I am having trouble communicating here is that I really didn't care if she left. Right or wrong, and I see it was wrong, I said what I said because I was projecting my anger at her because of the ridicule. I knew that she was leaving because she expected some type of pressure. Subconsciously I knew that if provoked she would tell the truth. She did. I spend years ignoring this pisspoor communication and look where it got me.
BTW, "thoughts" and "Feelings" are often confused in this forum. A thought is that I believe you are running from anticipated pressure. A feeling is sad, happy, confused etc.
Any "covert contracts" were perceived. My contracts are expressed. lol. To me, that is what I have called healthy adult communication. Say what you mean or want, and no mind reading.
You are right one shouldn't have to validate ones feeling. Remember I knew her thought and feelings. I Didn't judge them. I simply wanted her to admit them. This was wrong.
Thanks, AnotherStander, this is good advice.
Last edited by RR17; 11/14/1801:17 AM.
M 53 W 54, M since 98 D15, D19 8/2013 discovered EA, W maintained contact with OM until 10/14 7/2/17 W said she wanted S, 7/25/17 moved out of MBR 12/17 W says moving out 5/18, W still in home.
You talk a lot about "honest communication," and you seem to think that your wife saying "maybe" when she really thinks "no" is not honest communication.
Do I have that correct?
If so, I think you need to adjust your expectations.
It does sound like your wife would benefit from learning to express her thoughts and feelings more directly. But I think it is unrealistic to expect her to adopt a communication style that avoids the sort of social hedging that most women (most people?) use and understand.
Sometimes the way you talk about communications gives me the impression that the only communication you think is honest is communication that fits the Asperger's stereotype. If that's a true reflection of your attitude, then you need to change, not just your wife.
Did you get all that from my stories?
Okay, what do I do with that? Get checked for Asperger's?
M 53 W 54, M since 98 D15, D19 8/2013 discovered EA, W maintained contact with OM until 10/14 7/2/17 W said she wanted S, 7/25/17 moved out of MBR 12/17 W says moving out 5/18, W still in home.
You talk a lot about "honest communication," and you seem to think that your wife saying "maybe" when she really thinks "no" is not honest communication.
Do I have that correct?
If so, I think you need to adjust your expectations.
It does sound like your wife would benefit from learning to express her thoughts and feelings more directly. But I think it is unrealistic to expect her to adopt a communication style that avoids the sort of social hedging that most women (most people?) use and understand.
Sometimes the way you talk about communications gives me the impression that the only communication you think is honest is communication that fits the Asperger's stereotype. If that's a true reflection of your attitude, then you need to change, not just your wife.
Did you get all that from my stories?
Okay, what do I do with that? Get checked for Asperger's?
Yes, what I wrote is what I see when I read your posts here. I have no idea if what I see matches reality, because we see only a tiny sliver of life here on the boards, and always from the view of the poster.
But if you think I might have a point, then you might want to start by reading books about different communication styles, so you can broaden your empathy and increase your flexibility in this area.
You've mentioned communication issues with your daughter before, so improving your communication skills in general might be helpful.
Me: 44 H: 44 Kids: 20, 16, 16, and 10 Together/Married: 22 years H announced he was emotionally detached and considering D: 4/4/16 H announced he is going to try to stay and reconnect: 5/1/16
Interesting. In my 54 years, I have never heard that I may have autism spectrum disorder before. Effective communication is how I make a living. I've dealt with thousands of negotiations over 25+ years relying on subtle nuances to effectively serve my clients. My wife, on the other hand, has heard that she struggles to express herself, especially in regards to any negative news. To my memory, the only description involving my daughters that I recall sharing was between W and Ds and was used to illustrate this point. I mean I have had the typical parent/teenage challenges but nothing out of the norm. IMO
Honest communication seems to be a recurring theme in most all DB threads, no? If it weren't I don't think we would read about so many LBSs shocked at BD.
I have my faults but to think that my description of my W's vague none committed answers has allowed you to reach this diagnosis seems a bit overreaching. Rose, do you have training in this area?
Last edited by RR17; 11/14/1806:25 AM.
M 53 W 54, M since 98 D15, D19 8/2013 discovered EA, W maintained contact with OM until 10/14 7/2/17 W said she wanted S, 7/25/17 moved out of MBR 12/17 W says moving out 5/18, W still in home.
My professional background is in communication. I never said you had autism spectrum disorder, only that you seem to strongly prefer the sort of blunt, brutally honest communication stereotypically associated with ASD.
I suggested you learn about communication styles, not that you get tested.
The incident with your daughter that stands out is when she asked for a turtle and you gave her a tank of fish and then were mad when she gave the fish away. You said a turtle and fish were similar pets and seemed unable to understand how others could view that differently. I know it's a sore spot, so I avoided mentioning it specifically at first.
Like I said, I only have a tiny sliver of insight into your life, based on what you write. It sounds like my impression is off base, as I recognized it might be.
Me: 44 H: 44 Kids: 20, 16, 16, and 10 Together/Married: 22 years H announced he was emotionally detached and considering D: 4/4/16 H announced he is going to try to stay and reconnect: 5/1/16
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