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Oh, and Juju, I see what you are saying after reading about the guy on here. No offense to you fine men, but here we are seeing how looks seem to be trumping all for some of you, and how dating is practice. It made me realize, I was "practice" to a few guys Trumpet guy? I was total practice and "trying something different". It felt pretty cr@ppy. I get when there is a mutual agreement of just sex or no desire for anything serious. But if I definitely see there have been men definitely "honing their skills" on me rather than having any real intention of dating me. I am much more aware now of those possibilities.

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I would say that I would never date someone and use them as practice. If it was one date or two dates and it didn’t work out then I would consider that all part of my experience or I guess practice???? If it turned into something more and it was multiple dates, sex, etc. then I would not knowingly do that just for practice. I saw the dr at the gym this morning and I was genuinely happy to see her even if it was only for 15 minutes. We walked out together, I gave her a kiss and told her I would call her later.

As far as physical attraction goes I don’t think that changes with meeting someone irl or old. If you see someone across the bar you notice their looks first before you talk to them. With old it is the same, you see some pictures and determine if you are attracted. In either case you get to know the person after that and determine if there is a connection.

I have never been a Don Juan, needing to date multiple women, string them along, have sex, and then dump them. If I find someone I like then I will date them only and explore the possibilities to see what happens. I would prefer to build something with one person vs dating around. If I find that person on the 15th date or the 30th date it doesn’t matter to me.

I am not over the top with gifts, dates, etc. I would consider myself slow and steady even with the girls that it didn’t work out with. There were many one and done dates, a few couple of dates, a month or so,and now the dr. I am very down to earth, am not a fancy restaurant or fancy gifts kind of person. It’s not because i am tight it’s just who I am. Laid back,easy going, and not pretentious.

If it bothers you then say something. Men stopping the courting process in ltr is very common. They stop doing the little things that helped to create the initial attraction and gradually over time it starts to fade with your wife or girlfriend. The get lazy, stop going to the gym, stop taking her out on dates, stop recognizing the holidays, stop listening to her problems, stop spending time together, etc. etc. etc.

I know from experience that’s what doomed my marriage.


Married 14, Together 17
M: 44, W: 43, D: 8, D: 6
M: 46, W: 45. D: 10. D: 8 (CUR)
Bomb Dropped: 5/28/2017
Separation Date: 6/17/2017
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It just feels like they are studying how to win at a game. Not how to get to know someone as a unique individual. And I’m assuming that if they are doing it, there must be other guys doing that as well.

With my bf, I remember him telling me how if you frequent a restaurant often, it’s a good idea to leave the waitress a really large tip in the beginning so she remembers you. She will always go out of her way to provide good service even if your future tips are not as large. He actually said this to me! There’s that old saying to watch how a guy treats a waitress right?

So I am wondering if he consciously did that to me. Our first Valentine’s Day he bought me fine jewelry. After that, I felt this need to reciprocate with nicer more expensive gifts too. Then his gifts went to normal. Dates became less frequent. If its a financial reason, Like if this year he didn’t do as well I don’t mind. But I don’t know if that’s the case.
But to me, it feels like he was trying to maybe sell me something that wasn’t there in the beginning ? Which is the deception don has brought up. Im not comfortable bringing up the same present as his ex situation. It was a metal that I don’t wear. And he had told me that info a year ago in a different conversation(I have a memory like an elephant)

Texts became less frequent. Instead he tells me, that because I have the busy schedule and young child he doesn’t want to bother me and let’s me pursue. He tells me I can come over any time I want he’s always around. He has offered me a key. Which is all good things and signs for a girl that wants a commitment. But it makes me feel like he is lazy. I am not that personality that’s gonna go in and takeover and maybe he’s ok with that? He says things like, he wants to cook dinner for me and my son this weekend but then never actually invites us, so I’m not sure if I’m supposed to initiate that? To me that feels rude.

Anyway, there is a big part of me that is considering ending it. There’s some other things too. I like to go places and be active, especially with a little kid and he’s more of a home body. There are times I don’t really want to invite him somewhere with me cause if it’s someplace neither of us know he will comment and I feel the need to voice back or else “ be someone’s b” . For example, I was looking at a rack of coats for my son and he comments “why are you even looking at those. They are not gonna fit” but in a rude way. So then I get snappy and start explaining that they put the small coats in the front and the larger ones in the back. Me and my ex never had issues like this, cause he wasn’t looking and criticizing the little things I did. I know this sounds petty. But we have been together less then 1.5 years and we don’t see each other all that much, so this type of arguing should be more for when your together 10 years no?

I’m anxious about ending things at this point. when we hang out it’s ok. But I am also a very easy personality to hang out with. (I know you might not get that from how I write on here) But I am not always sure that I am seeing things fairly. Am I nitpicking things? I don’t really know how to end things cause I have been up and down. But I am not happy


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Men should always be leading and making dates even in Ltr. For me I dont view it as a game but I am very conscious of observing attraction levels and how she is interacting with me. A lot of the attraction books talk about how a man is all about drive, purpose, and conquering. Men dont consciencly make the decision to become lazy they just feel like they have won or conquered and they forget what they did in the beginning to attract the woman. They feel they have won so they put it on cruise control.

I will also say that the books all teach a man the a woman should never have to tell you what to do or how to act and if they do their attraction level will plummet even more. Not sure I 100% agree with that because i do feel if your unhappy you need to communicate with him. That said a woman should not have to tell a man how to be a man.

Your attraction level will only continue to decrease unless he starts to step up but I dont see that happening because he is not properly equipped.


Married 14, Together 17
M: 44, W: 43, D: 8, D: 6
M: 46, W: 45. D: 10. D: 8 (CUR)
Bomb Dropped: 5/28/2017
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Why is it that in any other area in life if you research something and read up on how to do it better it is considered a good thing but in dating it is frowned upon?

JUST BECAUSE YOU READ BOOKS DOESN'T MAKE YOU A PLAYER OR A "HUNTER"!

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Originally Posted by LH19
Why is it that in any other area in life if you research something and read up on how to do it better it is considered a good thing but in dating it is frowned upon?

JUST BECAUSE YOU READ BOOKS DOESN'T MAKE YOU A PLAYER OR A "HUNTER"!



I don’t frown upon reading books to feel more confident about dating or to gain insight about the opposite sex. I think it’s a great idea. The problem is that perhaps it is easy for some to take those books and become a bit dogmatic or even misinterpret them.

Hey it happens with the Bible, the Koran, the constitution etc


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Originally Posted by JujuB
[quote=LH19] The problem is that perhaps it is easy for some to take those books and become a bit dogmatic or even misinterpret them.


I agree with that statement. I have seen that happen on the board.

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Originally Posted by JujuB
It just feels like they are studying how to win at a game. Not how to get to know someone as a unique individual. And I’m assuming that if they are doing it, there must be other guys doing that as well.
A lot of the people who end up here are "fixers" who tend to overthink things and strategize including myself. I don't know how representative of a population we are but you are undoubtedly right.

I look at my past very few dates not so much as "practice" but as a learning experience. I learned that it's OK to realize that someone isn't a good fit and letting them go out of my life. I've learned that potential is all well and good but that it's the practical reality that matters.

I think though you are more thinking about how some individuals "use" others for their own ends. I can't really say if your bf falls in to that category or not. From what you've described he seems a bit thoughtless and lazy in his relationship skills. And that can be pretty normal for a lot of guys. He's not going to change. People don't and if they do they can't maintain it for long.

From what you write he is happy for you to do the work and really doesn't seem bothered one way or another about being a good partner or building a relationship. Liking different things is fine - but criticizing the other person's choices when they have no impact on yourself is a to me huge deal. CL would criticize some of my choices but then shrug and move on when I pointed out that I disagreed with her.

Originally Posted by JujuB
But I am not happy
And this is the key thing. It's one thing to not be happy from time to time in a long term relationship. The ups and downs are to be expected. Consistently not being happy early on is a problem.

Give it some thought. Come here and explore those thoughts if you like which I personally think is healthy. Ask yourself the hard questions. And if your choice is that it's not going to work for you - then end it. Don't "settle". One thing that I have certainly learned and it wasn't easy to learn - is that being in a healthy relationship with yourself is far better than being in a bad one with someone else.


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Originally Posted by Joseph9
I would say that I would never date someone and use them as practice.


Ya know I feel like I'm always busting your chops Joseph but dang man your words sometimes are just that - words. You without a doubt have been practicing dating. For crying out loud those were your own words to us - especially to me. You said straight out it was like me practicing my instrument or like Michael Jordan I think it was practicing to play in the NBA - THOSE WERE YOUR EXACT WORDS!!! now you say you'd never practice? HUH?

But I would say, I don't think any of us go into our dates thinking it's practice. It may end up that way but I think we are all sincere when we start out. We just are confident enough to admit we need practice and we don't know it all.

Originally Posted by JujuB
Anyway, there is a big part of me that is considering ending it.


I'm very much enjoying this conversation JuJu. I continue to learn a lot from many of you here and in this case from you JuJu as to what at least some women are thinking. I'm not there with you and your BF so it's really hard to know what's going on. Plus it's from your perspective - his might be greatly different. It does seem like both of you have lost the shine or the luster for the other. But after 18 months, should you not talk with him about that rather than just end it - or worse yet continue as you are? I can tell you that if a woman tells me what's bothering her or something I'm doing that is making things worse, I'll do all I can to change it. But I can't do that if she doesn't tell me. Have you thought about sitting down with him and telling him some of these things? Telling him things that are bothering you. Again in my own case, and I often tell women I'm dating this very thing, that 90% of the time if you'll just ask me or clarify, what I said or how you took it was not meant as it came out or was taken.

I also think you are giving us men in general far too much credit. We don't think all of this stuff out. We have no grand plan or master plan. We just bumble through and do it. We are not thinking we are gaming or practicing. We are not trying to set you up or shade the truth of who we are. We are not that sinister nor that deep. We just are not.

Originally Posted by JujuB
I'm the one holding back.

I feel a bit deceived though. When we first dated, he went all out. Now, not so much.


Do you think one may be effecting the other? I know it would be for me. It gets "old" to keep trying if you are not getting it in return. This is one of the concepts in the DB books. If you started reaching out more, do you think he might as well? Is he now holding back because you are? I don't know this to be a fact - I just question it.

I've also read over and over forever it seems that the new infatuation period lasts about 6 to maybe 12 months. After that there is a more "mature" love that forms as you just can't keep that level going forever. I've always believed that. I mean it seems like the majority of "experts" say it. Yet we have at least a few here saying oh no, that should go on forever. Really? Should it? I even read from Joseph and a few others that if they would have kept the honeymoon phase going (my words not theirs) that they would not have gotten D'd. Well, yeah, I guess, perhaps. But is that even possible? Now this is not to say there should not be date nights and interaction and all of the rest. I'm not saying that. But things change. Do you really expect to keep what went on in the first 6 months going forever? Is that really possible?

I pose many more questions than I have answers but that is in part why I'm so fascinated by this discussion. It's also why I think all of this dating and R stuff is soooooo dang hard - and always has been for me. Give me nearly everything else in life and I've got it down pretty solidly - relationships, hell to the no - I clearly don't have this figured out at all.

So let's maybe just take one point here and see if we can get to a bottom with it.

Originally Posted by JujuB
He says things like, he wants to cook dinner for me and my son this weekend but then never actually invites us, so I’m not sure if I’m supposed to initiate that? To me that feels rude.


So when he says this, what is your response? Do you kinda of say "Um yeah I guess that could be fun." or something like that? Or do you respond "Oh yes, I'd love that, thank you so much, what time do you want to get together?" I'm sure you can see the difference in the two. As a guy, if it's the first response, I'm thinking, okay she really doesn't want to do this and is just being nice in saying yes. Now if it's the second response and nothing happens, by all means you should be saying, "What happened with dinner this weekend, are we still on for that because I'm looking forward to it." I know you feel you have little if anything in common with Wild Girl and know you don't think much of her but since she is my most recent example and therefore the clearest in my head, I'll use her. We talked about going on an overnight train trip to Chicago. I asked her about it and her response seemed luke warm to me - at best. She finally gave me a weekend and said she's really busy but maybe that could work. Now there was more at play here and I already greatly sensed she was backing off but with that response I was like, why should I bother. She never said another word - unless we finally talked months later. Had she simply said ANYTHING positive about it afterwards I would have followed through. But I figured she's not even mentioned it, she doesn't want to go. Yet this was one of the things she later listed as why she thought that I lost interest - saying, "You talked about going to Chicago and then never said anything again." See the two perspectives? Again, with WG there is much more going on but I think you can still get a sense of what I'm saying. I'll bet if you just told your BF, that you are really looking forward to this dinner, he'd follow through. Why not try it? Now if you have and he still is all talk and no follow through, it's time to ask him about it. He should tell you why. The two of you really need to start communicating about this.

So I'll stop with that one example. I really think you should try to flush this out. If it's not meant to be it's just not meant to be. But sticking in limbo is no way to live either. I hope this helps in some manner.


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The dates turned into practice because they didn’t work out. If they had and it had turned into a R I wouldn’t have considered it practice. I didn’t knowningly take a date with the assumption it was practice.


Married 14, Together 17
M: 44, W: 43, D: 8, D: 6
M: 46, W: 45. D: 10. D: 8 (CUR)
Bomb Dropped: 5/28/2017
Separation Date: 6/17/2017
Divorce Filed: 2/7/2018
Divorce Final: 4/12/2018
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