Thanks everyone. Y'all are extremely helpful. We had a nice dinner the other night at which point I told her she is troubled and I made a vow to support her and will continue as long as I need to. She squeezed my hand tighter than I have ever felt that night in bed. It is painful though. I came home tonight and got yelled at for asking if her 7pm coffee was decaf or regular. 10 minutes later we were talking and joking and having wine on the back porch. I have reserved myself to accept the ups and downs and realize the negative comments are the demons talking, not my gentle, caring and golden-hearted wife. During the initial phases all I had was hope. People thought I was crazy because I focused on small things she said and knew her actions were not equal to her words. I stuck through it, we came back together (through whatever pretenses those were). We still share a bed and wear our wedding rings. I thought for sure she would have removed hers at this point, as she removed it early on. She uses distancing words when discussing divorce or being on her own and these things give me hope. The EA is now over, I have spoken with his family (they are family friends). I am close with her family too and talk with them frequently, as they are very concerned about her. I know focusing on the small things can end up hurting me but they do give me strength to pull through. Meanwhile, I am caring for myself. I've hit the gym 5 days per week since August and lost 25 lbs. I am a physician and get hit on by 2-3 nurses per day. Not going to act on that but it boosts my morale. I've started listening to positive podcasts and music. Most importantly I engulf myself in my children when I'm home and have an excellent network of supportive friends and family. I've peeled back with the lovey dovey stuff and wait for her actions. We're both caring for ourselves and its helping us grow as a family. The kids have never been happier.
You told her she was troubled and vowed to support her indefinitely
You do not need to diagnose her
Let her diagnose herself
You also do not need to speak of or make vows about the future
Just live in the present
Last edited by job; 10/31/1801:02 PM. Reason: edited a word for Gordie
Gordie 40s W 40s M20+ kids 2016 BD W fantasy affair w OM1 I do everything wrong 2017 I start to DB W says TLTL files for D PA w OM2 2018 I do LRT W drops filing and OM2 situation slowly improving
Had the pleasure of speaking to a DB coach on the phone. It was fantastic. He does tend to think it is more of a WAW or maybe a hybrid of the with MLC. I did note if I drop ILY while hugging or holding hands she squeezes tight and gave me the green light to drop it every now and then.
I did pick up on a new pattern now though. It goes Daggers thrown---->my deflection---> 5 minutes later her asking if I'm ok in order to see if her insults affected me or not.
Example from lunch today. I admittedly put my hand on her thigh and attempted to hold hands. She did not reciprocate. I got full while eating and got quite. She interpreted that as I was upset she didn't reciprocate.
Her: does it eat at you when I don't reciprocate these things. Me: No. Her: it has to, you are getting upset. Me: 1. Dont name my emotion. 2. How would it make you feel? Her: I dont think I could be with that person any more Me: laughs with a sarcastic "OK" Her: I dont know where we stand and you're trying to change my direction toward you Me: OK. What do you want. Her: you to acknowledge you get upset when I dont reciprocate Me: sorry, I dont. You're arrogant to think you control my emotions. Her: I'm not arrogant Me: yes you are. Her: I dont want to be touched right now, ok. Me: cool.
We get home, I shower. Shes in the bathroom probably to see if I am crying. I get out and tell her I'm going out for a bit.
Me: leaving now Her: gives me big hug. I drop ILY and she squeezes very tight. Followed by "Are you ok" Me: -smile-, I am great, thanks. See you at dinner.
This pattern of things happens every 3-4 days or so. It always involves something about my emotions or a future without her. It is followed by a check up 5 minutes later to see if she had any impact. Is this typical behavior?
Whether she is a WAW or someone in MLC, we would follow the same advice here. Yes, her behavior is very typical and that's why we say "focus on you". If you continue to focus on her, it will drive you nuts.
Have you read Sandi's Rules? Here's the link to her thread:
Sit quietly, the answers will reveal themselves when you least expect them to. The past is gone, the present is a gift and you need to focus on today, allow the future to reveal itself when it is ready.
I am taking good care of myself. In fact, this convo occurred 3-4 days after I went semi-dark. I've spent the past 3 months focusing on her and now its "me time"
This does lead me to ask a question about her again though. About 6 weeks ago she told me she was depressed. I have been trying to help her, she is in counseling too. But she needs to see an MD and get a mood stabilizer. How in the heck can this be conveyed to her? She had issues with depression long before this crisis stuff began.
One thing they really do not want, is to be diagnosed. You are correct, mood stabilizers, anti depressants, etc.. would probably be helpful. However, in her view, there is nothing wrong with her. Even when she may start to think there is something wrong she will dismiss it and convince herself otherwise. This continues until they get tired of running, hit rock bottom, or something, and hopefully awaken.
My W actually said she thought she was going crazy, but she realized that a crazy person would not think they were going crazy, so therefore she was not going crazy.
I also suggested she should see a doctor. Ha, that went over like a lead balloon.
She was one confused woman. I say was, because now she is deep in replay and she has no room for confusion. Her fantasy must be maintained at all costs. So things like self reflection, getting a check up, etc... are out the window.
The chances of conveying something to her are slim. Even if you do, it probably would only stick until she spins again. She needs to get to a place where she sees the benefit of seeing a MD for herself.
I love job’s saying. I heard it a few times.
Keep focus on yourself. Focus on her and you will go bonkers.
You’re doing good.
DnJ
Feelings are fleeting. Be better, not bitter. Love the person, forgive the sin.
So after some trial and error it seems going dim seems to work. Going completely dark backfired, I think because part of the marital turmoil was my emotional unavailability. She is now initiating all physical contact and conversations. We did this about 2.5 months ago with the difference now being 1. We are sharing a bedroom 2. We have established saving the marriage is the baseline. She wants nothing sexually and I guess I am now a guy trying to rebuild a friendship. This is the hardest part for me to navigate. I continue to individually grow but it is painful to go out on a Saturday night to a dinner alone.
Some thoughts I have that perhaps one can chime in on.
-she doesn't know if she wants to be married to me but certainly wants to be married to my bank account. There is no crazy spending but she is a SAHM and has no income of her own. I don't think bringing this up would be wise unless there is something egregious.
-my brain tells me I need a drastic move.....like move out of the house, or proceed with the divorce negotiations..... but my heart tells me I cannot. The children were made aware of the initial plans to divorce and the subsequent reconciliation. House is currently for sale. She has not mentioned even leaving the bedroom so this step would likely be a terrible idea. I just need some answers but I know I have to be patient.
-regarding divorce: I filed in July. Last activity was in August. It is stagnant and set to be dismissed in jan-feb. It was to have a nonsuit filed in Sept but my snooping (and discovery of continuation of the EA) led to my "inappropriate behavior" led to cancelation of that. Now it is hung over my head every 3-4 days. HOWEVER, since I have been deflecting and set boundary for those discussions to be held in front of a mediator they have stopped-for now. It takes her 20 minutes to pick from a restaurant menu so at this time I know there is no way she will pull the trigger herself. This is where the "I understand if you want to end it. I don't like it but will accept it" discussions come up every now and then.
-for myself. I have started to dress nicer when I go out. It boosts my confidence and feels good. I am still hitting the gym, etc... I honestly started to make changes (in july) to win her back but they have made me feel good on the inside and I am doing for myself. Now they have become routine. There are good days and bad days. I am trying to shut off her emotions controlling mine but it is hard. I am gaining strength with this each day. The "act as if" strategy is kicking in slowly.
-snooping. This was habitual for me once I felt the EA had started some time ago. It is like an addictive drug. I have stopped and realized no good can come of it. It was hard to quit though.
180s. Probably the hardest thing to do. It is hard because there is no one size fits all. My coach gave me the green light on occasional ILYs, during a hug only. I do this once every 2 days or so. But if we are in a friendship stage I may stop. This is where it gets complex. A friend wouldn't say ILY but a friend would not sleep in the same bed, do the dishes or take you to lunch, gym, etc.... several times per week.
All in all I want to save the marriage, but don't know how long I can continue like this. We have both taken to reading. I am reading fantasy and of course DB. She is reading self help stuff and biographies. Nothing to save the marriage. She keeps pushing back on dates to start couples counseling. She obviously has demons she is facing in her IC and is waiting for some of those to be dealt with. If I push I am "controlling." Last convo we had we will start by the end of the month, but I'm waiting for another excuse as to why we cannot. There may be a point I have to give an ultimatum but that is a last resort......
I am glad you are seeing results w/going dim. Stay the course for now.
Before you dated, you were friends and that is where you need to start...back to square one. No expectations, listen and validate when she has something to say.
I, myself, wouldn't move out until the house is sold. Time for answers will come just before you sign the contract on the house. For now, I would continue to live in the house and treat her like a roommate.
I am glad to read that you are dressing nicer and hitting the gym. As you stated, these changes must remain a routine. Are there any other changes that you want to make? They have to be for you and not her. Also, when you go out, you do not have to tell her where you are going all of the time. Be mysterious for a bit. Her curiosity will eventually get the best of her and she will ask you.
As for snooping...nothing comes of it. In fact, it will make you feel terrible, angry and want to do something about it...as you are aware. I'm glad you've ceased this exercise.
180's can be difficult, but you can do some of them. Start out slow with the ILY's and be sure to thank her when she does something that you've been doing, i.e., dishes, etc.
I would back off on pushing for counseling. This is something that she needs to do herself and she's not ready to face the demons Set up counseling sessions for you. No ultimatums! If you do this, she will pick the one that is the easiest.
I know that this journey is frustrating, but you have to trust in the advice that you have been given. Give her space and time, no pressure of any kind, dig deeper for patience and remember....you didn't break her, therefore you can't fix her. The marathon has just begun and it's going to take some time for both of you to heal.
Sit quietly, the answers will reveal themselves when you least expect them to. The past is gone, the present is a gift and you need to focus on today, allow the future to reveal itself when it is ready.
Yes, I think she is using the house as a guide to her decision making. Our realtor said it prob wont sell until the spring, given the style and price point. As it stands now, if it sold today she would want to move in a new place together. Whether that's true on a few months....who knows.
Other than dressing nicer, I am looking at a new hobby. Golf, shooting lessons, karate. I will start something this week.
We unofficially decided to make each other aware of when and where we are going out. Mostly to keep track of who will pick up kids from school. During the intial divorce phase we would leave unannounced and show up whenever. We dont want to relive this feelings. It may be a general "I'm going shopping" to "I'm going to target, you need anything" . Either way, I do not pry, though it seems she does from time to time.
For 180s, I backed off ILY for a while and slowly introduced them back. Last week, she told me there are certain things she doesn't want to tell me because they would get my Hope's up. She eventually spolled the beans. One of those things is ILY. The other is she thinks it's best to remain a family.
As for counseling, she is doing well in her IC and I have a feeling she will spring it up on me suddenly when she wants to do CC. She has a list of my days off in her purse, so she may have scheduled one already.
Oh, and she still thanks me several times per day for helping out with kids, getting dinner, doing dishes, taking her on "dates". Things that were missing from the marriage for so long. I guess this is her love language? I need to read up more on that.
