...we talked a bit about the “rules” of this new arrangement. We didn’t really come up with anything other than we are going to make some time to talk to each other once in awhile. He says he likes talking to me and always has. He just doesn’t like talking to me if he thinks I’m mad at him... he hates conflict...I said that is what got us into this mess and he agreed that it likely was. It feels like tonight was a step forward but also a step backward...not sure. Guess time will tell.
Your H sounds like he does't know what he wants. But, at least you can have honest(ish) conversations with him. Mine hides his head in the sand and pretends everything is fine. Just two people sitting across from one another discussing the weather. Yours sounds a little more mature in that he can have a conversation, accept responsibility and say sorry. Mine lacks the introspection to do that.
It is not one step forward one step back. It is definitely forward. Not sure where too, but I think, you have the strength to be OK irrespective.
Originally Posted by DejaVu6
I made myself feel a bit better when I got home by shoving all of his clothes into a corner of our closet and spreading all of mine out onto his side. It feels good... and yet another step closer to separation. I so so hate this.
When we first moved into this house, I converted the small bedroom next to ours into a dressing room for me so H had a big walk-in closet to himself. When he moved out, he took everything in the closet. It took him 2 weeks to properly move out. I would walk around at night finding things that reminded me of him and put it in the closet, and when I got home from work, he would have taken it. We never spoke about where the thing had been taken, or why I took it down in the first place. It was like the closet was made of Narnian wood. But after a while, the closet became a physical reminder of his absence. So I filled it. I put all my winter coats and dinner dresses in there. I put my dirty clothes hamper in there. I even redecorated the MBR. It took me a long time to come to that decision - what if he thought I didn't want him back and I was moving on. Yes, it did feel like one step closer to the end. Yes, I hated it too. Yes, I still hate going in there. But it had to be done. I can always move my clothes back if he comes home. There was a cupboard in the kitchen which was his too (protein shakes, power bars etc). That is now full of children colouring pens and books.
Flysolo - how interesting that you just posted that. I am just at that point too. Have worried about how he will perceive me packing some of his stuff away, up until this week that is. I shall just fold it into bags and leave it somewhere out of sight. I have come to see it as him marking his territory. Well, i don't have stuff at his new 'home' so why should he get to leave his mark here. I don't feel as vindictive as it probably sounds but just showing that I am going to carry on regardless.
DejaVu 6 - step forward I think PROVIDED it doesn't leave you to have expectations. I got the same 'I like talking to you when you're being reasonable" talk and I nearly exploded (in secret) with the sheer bare - bottomed cheek of the man. So, if he wants to talk and you have nothing else on at the time, then practice your DB listening skills. I would steer away from R talks though and just see where he wants the conversation to go. Baby steps. He is telling you what he can't cope with and what will make him run for the hills, so take heed if you want to. But perhaps don't make yourself too easily available. He has to realise that you are not just there to be his emotional crutch when he needs one. The consequence of not being in the home and marriage full time is that you are not at his beck and call.
Thank you both. Expectations are funny. It is so easy to have them and not really realize it until you are in a situation reacting. Last night was interesting. My H was really emotional when he was talking about his stressful week which, honestly, was not that bad in the grand scheme of things. I’ve handled way worse. It occurred to me while talking to him just how poorly he handles stress... like he seems really fragile in some ways. I wonder if he has always been that way and I just didn’t notice or is this just indicative of how messed up his brain is right now? When he left last night, he gave me a hug and told me he was going to take the next couple of days to just de-stress and enjoy his conference. He told me to do the same with my sister. He asked where we were going but then added, before I could answer, “not that it’s any of my business.” I told him anyway. He had guessed correctly anyway since she and I have an overnight shopping/casino trip we used to take about twice a year. Haven’t gone for at least a year so I am really looking forward to it. My H is turning 45 on Sunday (really hate that he is 5.5 years younger than me). I thought about getting him something but decided that I would just help our daughter bake him his favourite cake.
So I did something a bit risky(?). Not sure. My H has maintained that his running away was basically running away from me and our relationship but not our kids. He said leaving them was the hardest part. I actually don’t believe him. I think he was running away from EVERYTHING that felt like pressure and responsibility. In actuality, even when he had the chance to spend more time with them (when I wasn’t around), he would still choose to leave. So... I proposed to him in an email that we switch places for a month. I suggested that he could move back in to our place, keep his rental, and that i would go and stay with my sister. I told him he could do all the daily things with the house and the kids (and I provided him with a LONG list) and I would see them on Tuesdays, Thursdays and Sundays. I told him to think about it and we can talk about it next week sometime. It will be interesting to see how he responds. I know if he agrees, he will do a good job taking care of them but it might kill him...lol. Anyway... I’m not 100% sure I could be at my sister’s for that long (she only lives 5 minutes from me so it’s not like I would be a world away) but I’m kind of tired of him blaming me for his behaviour...
He asked where we were going but then added, before I could answer, “not that it’s any of my business.” I told him anyway.
Its funny when things like that happen. It's like they want to know what's going on with us, but they catch themselves because they know they have no right to ask. About two months ago we were having a BBQ for D12's birthday. H came over early to help set up ... or read the paper in the kitchen. At one point, H left to go to the supermarket. He was gone for about 2 hours. When he got back I asked him "did you get what you needed?". He looked at me, scowled, and said "Yes. And you don't need to ask !!!". Ever since then I don't ask him any questions. He still asks me though. He knows he shouldn't. But he does. Like you, I take the high road and give truthful (but vague) answers.
Originally Posted by DejaVu6
He said leaving them was the hardest part. I actually don’t believe him. I think he was running away from EVERYTHING that felt like pressure and responsibility. In actuality, even when he had the chance to spend more time with them (when I wasn’t around), he would still choose to leave.
I think your H is telling the truth. My H loves his kids. Of that I have no doubt. But when he was in the midst of it all he checked out on them as well. We would not see him for days. When D8 would try and cuddle him on the sofa, he'd push her off. He would get mad at D12 for any little thing. When they are in that "I need to run mode" even the children feel like pressure and responsibility. Once they've actually run they realise what they've done (well my H anyway), get scared that the children will hate them, and suddenly become super dad. As much as it [censored] for me, i try and look at it as a blessing.
re the risk. I guess the vet would say, as long as you did it for you and you did it with no expectations, then you cannot get hurt if he responds one way or the other. If he agrees, then enjoy the extra time with your sister. If he says no, then enjoy the time with your kids. Win win either way.
It'll be interesting to see what he replies. He may see it as you controlling him or putting pressure on. I suppose it depends on how you worded it as well. Did you make it appear that you were doing it for him or did you say ' I would like to do some things for myself and that means you swapping places with me in the house?'
Maybe a month was too long? I doubt he can think a month ahead. If he doesn't respond to your email, do not ask him about it as that may be seen as pressure and pursuit.
I only have adult children so cannot in anyway relate to what you guys have to contend with. When my H first left, I refused to let him take the dog to his 'love pad' and in fact really limited his access to her. Now I say, 'I'm away all day Saturday so the dog needs sorting out please' I give him plenty of warning, but it is for my benefit alone and to help me GAL.
I, in no way wish to imply that my dog situation means that I understand yours, or that it's comparable, and I don't really care whether he has a relationship with the dog going forward; but I do feel it's a step forward for me; It has reminded him that he has some responsibilities and enabled me to GAL.
Lots of food for thought. Thank you. As far as my expectations... I’m not really sure. I guess he might experience it as pressure. It may have not been wise on my part. I know he loves them but I also would like him to know the realities of being the person who is there 100% of the time instead of the person who visits. Honestly, I doubt that he will agree to it and I’m not going to make an issue of it. If anything, I’m hoping that he freaks out a little bit at the idea of taking it all on - maybe have a bit of insight that it isn’t all about me. I’ve been reading about MLC and having a hard time figuring out where my H is at in all of that. He’s been doing this for the better part of four years but I was only aware of it at the beginning and now. The in-between years he just hid everything from me. There are some things that don’t fit. He doesn’t appear to be overly angry at me. He’s clear that he loves me [although the guilt he feels when he sees me is stronger at this point] and values my friendship. He has some insight but retreats from it when it is too hard. He hasn’t done anything “wild” unless you count living his covert life of solitude. He is responsible with our money and consults with me ahead of time if he wants to buy anything that is over $100. As I am writing this, I’m thinking that I still need to work more on my DBing because I’m still concerned with what he is doing. Arghh... this is so hard.
I had lunch with a friend yesterday. Her H left her after ten years of marriage “for the girl who answered the phones” when her boys were two and three years old. She is a very strong person... forgiveness does not come easy to her. That has to be earned. She said when it all happened, she remembers how devastated she was. She says she made a list of all of the things she was so upset about... broken home, money issues, kids, etc... and then realized that nothing on her list was about HIM. She said when she realized that, she picked herself up, set some goals, forced herself to be social with people, took an improv class (which is where she first met the man she is married to now), and got a job. In short, she GAL, but I don’t think she ever considered trying to work things out with her ex. She is now a manager at a school board and her life is much better than her ex’s who is still with the woman he left her for. Her kids, who are now in college, tell her that their dad’s marriage is no picnic. Anyway... she told me all this but at the very end said that she can’t blame me for wanting to fight for my marriage and she has wondered, over the years, on occasion, whether or not she should have done the same thing [apparently her ex had “missed” her shortly after he left]. It was nice to talk to her and see living proof that there is life after divorce. In my heart of hearts, I do think my H and I can get through this but I also know that I have to come to terms with the possibility that I am wrong about that.
One sleep until my sister and I leave on our little getaway. I am so looking forward to it!!! Love to you both!
I know he loves them but I also would like him to know the realities of being the person who is there 100% of the time instead of the person who visits.
It is a difficult balance. Clearly he cannot continue to drop by and visit whenever it suits him and then go and hide at his place when it all gets too much. And he cannot expect you to carry the burden of the family 100% of the time. I suspect he will respond, it will take some time, because he will want to think his words through carefully, but he will respond.
Perhaps validate "I can see how you feel that way ..." and then state an alternative "I know that we are both committed to the children and want whats best for them. Having the kids full time doesn't work for me. How about we agree a schedule where you have them one night a week and every second weekend. I will stay at my sisters".
From what you describe, I think his MLC fog is slowly lifting. He sounds like a rational man (not a common MLC trait) and he is trying to be considerate of how things impact you. He fails sometimes (inviting you on the boat and then not out for the rest of the day).
When H was at his worst, the last thing he thought about was the impact of his actions on me. He told me he thought we were finished on my b-day last year, saw me breakdown, and then thought it was still ok to go Dubai 2 days later to spend 5 days with a school friend who had just got divorced. He literally did not speak to me (unless you count huffs and growling) between christmas and NY. 2 days before NYE he announced he had booked to go to a NYE party with another friend (also divorced) and his GF. He didn't seem to care that I was a shattered mess by that point. He even blamed me "you never want to go out NYE. I always end up sitting on the sofa on my own" (woes is me, we have young children you [censored]'.
Compare that to last night when he asked me if I wanted to keep our dog home with me instead of going to his flat with the girls 'so she can keep company'. Ditto the anger and the cherry picking bad moments in our history and focusing only on those. I think your H is further on the awakening path. They do say that sometimes, even when the LBS is still standing, even where the WAS want to come back, the guilt over the hurt they've caused and the huge uphill battle to R is too much for them.
What I'm trying to say is tread carefully. He is further on his journey then my H (who still wants to check if the grass is greener), but your H knows he [censored] up and he is trying to make things right (note: i did not say trying to R).
You and I, and others here have set ourselves on a long and painful journey with no guarantees. I am glad you are here to hold my hand (so to speak) whilst I walk it.
Have a great time with your sister. Against DB'g but I would text H a happy birthday.
Just a quick update because I am exhausted and heading to bed. Had a great time with my sister. Did some shopping... bought shoes...had a nice dinner...played our favourite slot machines. It was nice being away and trying not to think about things. The morning we left was a bit tough. Both my kids were teary because I was leaving on “Daddy’s birthday”...ugh...told them Daddy was happy I was going because he wanted to spend some special time with them. My daughter asked if me and Daddy were “okay”. Somehow not being there for his birthday was a bigger indicator of trouble than the fact he hasn’t really been living here for months?? Anyway... only spent a couple of hours feeling guilty (not mine to have, I know) and then i was able to shake it off.
Today when I arrived home, my H was here. He made a point of telling me all the things he had done with the kids in my absence. We chatted for a couple of minutes and then he said he needed to go because he was feeling quite sick and nauseous. I was briefly irritated because i needed to leave again but he had organized his mom to take care of them for the evening so it was okay. On his way out the door, he asked if I had plans the next night. I thought about it for a few seconds and he laughed and said the he liked that I have to think about it? Pretty sure I didn’t have plans so I told him that and asked why he asked. He said that he was just wondering if I would like to have a glass of wine with him. So...that’s what I am doing tomorrow night. Not sure why he wants to meet. I hope it’s a positive sign but I am going to make a point of ridding myself of any expectations. Wine and conversation is all I am expecting. After he left, my MIL told me that she had tried to send him home earlier because he was feeling really sick but he told her that he wanted to wait until I got home. Again...maybe a positive sign? My MIL seemed to think it was because previously, he has avoided me like the plague.
So...that’s the latest in my sitch. A bit nervous about our wine date tomorrow. Hoping he is not wanting to tell me something I’m not going to want to hear. Guess time will tell...
I hope the wine date goes well. Be prepared for some manipulative BS.
Make sure your GAL is on point so the next time he asks you'll have to inform him that you already have plans. You don't want to be super available to him.
H 34 W 29 BD 3/12/18 Divorce Busted Spring 19
It is not things that bother us, but the stories we tell ourselves about things.
