I wanted and still want a life of virtue. I want a life of intellectual and emotional challenge. I want adventure and fun, but I want depth and feeling. I want the entire prism of human emotion and struggle. I married someone who wanted a shallow partner and a relationship that resembles a roller coaster ride. I wanted a deep partner in a stable relationship who would occasionally take me to a roller coaster ride. We were never going to make it. It is astounding that we made it as long as we did. I think that is a testament to both of us.
I think my ex and I were a little more closely aligned on some things, but still, in the long run, some differences in values were an issue. He cared so much what others thought of him (as an insecure narcissist) - I've never been the least bit concerned as I am comfortable in my own skin. I put family above material things - he, although he LOOKED like a simple-living guy, actually bitterly resented our wealthier neighbors (as part of his childhood "wound" of being the working class kid with the self-employed dad who made them work in the family business, in a neighborhood of doctors and lawyers whose kids took ski trips.) He wanted adventure and change and desperately clung to these things to treat his depression, while I am solid and steady and perennially happy. My glass is always half full and his was always half empty. It's no wonder we didn't last, yet I don't think he could have lasted as long with anyone else.
Hello OneArt - What a great realization you had in the car. I am very happy for you. You deserve much joy and happiness.
I love the update on your kids. I have wondered about daughter’s subject and son’s inury. I didn’t ask specifics - anonymity issues.
Now, what do you mean you can’t be a good support for others?
I can’t speak for others, but I can speak for myself. You have been a great help and support, and I appreciate every kick in the butt you gave me. I also appreciate your kind words, your direct wisdom, your expertise, your serious side, and that humour that bubbles out once in a while. You have been a great help! So don’t you make me bonk you with a 2x4.
This looks to me like you are further letting go and indifference is taking hold. I found it so weird at first, the attenuating of all those emotions, and others springing forth. It takes a while for it to balance out.
Originally Posted by OneArt
But, I have realized, that there is a huge sense of loss in letting go of the hope that I had for my H. The hope that he would "come out of this", the hope that he would restore his relationship with the children, and maybe a very small hope that he would restore his relationship with me in some way, dare I say that we could even be friendly some day, if not friends. Letting go all the way feels like giving up on him. I hate quitting. I am not a quitter.
You have given me your straight direct thoughts and advice, I will do the same.
Letting go is not quitting. Letting go is not about abandoning hope for your H. Letting go is to release yourself from the responsibility, the obligation, the attempt to create an outcome.
Let go of the outcome. Letting go is giving the responsibility for H’s outcome back to him, placing his future in his hands - where it has always been.
You spoke about how intellectually you realize how H will not be hurt by this since he doesn’t even know you have given up on him. Exactly, you giving up or not, has very little to no affect on his outcome. Letting go is realizing this, and emotionally letting go of H and the outcome.
Letting go of fear is a big one, but I think you got that covered already. There is also letting go of anger, hate, vengeance, and so forth. However in all of this, IMHO, you do not need to let go of hope for your H.
Hope is just the desire of a possible future, of a possible outcome. You can hope for it without holding on to it. In fact you really can’t hold on to it, it is very much in his hands. All you can do, is let go and hope.
Now, I am not tied to your H. In fact you could say I am the ultimate in having let go of him. That being said, I hope he “comes out of it”. His future is not my responsibility, his future is in his hands, it’s his path to walk. To me he is a person who is hurting and I hope he gets better.
Originally Posted by OneArt
Letting go all the way feels like giving up on him. I hate quitting. I am not a quitter.
I read carefully what you wrote. Remember letting go only feels like giving up on him - it is not actually giving up, it is not actually quitting, those are different and self explanatory.
I hope I did not cause too much distress in my attempt of accurately looking at this. I do understand your feelings of the loss of hope. I also believe that you will find a different balance and outlook of letting go and hope.
DnJ
Feelings are fleeting. Be better, not bitter. Love the person, forgive the sin.
KML, I think my H is like yours in a lot of ways, have thought for some time now. I do struggle with the narcissism though. I definitely thought that at first. Now, the way he is handling the litigation, as well as the fear he exhibits, make me think it is really very serious passive-aggressive behavior and BPD/bipolar. In the end it really doesn't matter. What matters is the behaviors and the person he is showing me and the kids now.
DnJ, I hoped you would come along. I had these thoughts today welling up inside me, and I had this moment when I really understand why our dear Coly is having such a hard time letting go. I understood finally how letting go felt like giving up. Of course, as I said, I know that intellectually this is not the case, and it is as you have written DnJ.
I also think there is a certain conceit with me. I think until today I believed that he thinks far more about me than he likely does and that my actions affect his thoughts, feelings, and emotions more than they likely do. It was at once embarrassing to have reached this feeling (at such a late date), but also oddly freeing. I can let go for me. He does not know I am letting go. If he is hurt by that fact I will likely never know about it, but if he is, it is not my fault. While legally his wife, he no longer looks to me for my opinions, my care, my good wishes. Nothing. He keeps telling me to move on, and even if it is simply projection, I am allowed to do precisely that.
OneArt - That is fantastic. “Letting go for me” - awesome!
I understand that embarrassment and the oddly freeing feeling.
You are a good person. You do not want H to be hurt or to be at fault for it. Don’t worry you are not at fault, your good qualities shine through.
Here is rest of my advice.
Originally Posted by OneArt
For years I worried so much more about him than myself, and indeed more than my children as well. That is a big reservoir of shame that I will have to dip into before long.
Deal with this.
Let go of the fear and the shame. You did the best you could.
I also worried about W far more than I should have, and at the cost of me and my children. And look what I recovered / discovered. Don’t fret, things are alright and will be so much better.
So wade into that pool of seeming shame, and walk through to the other side. It is not the big reservoir you think it is, and there is nothing to be ashamed of. Let go and forgive - yourself!
That is my single most important bit for you right now. Forgive yourself. Don’t worry about forgiving H or let him go. All that will be so much easier once you have forgiven yourself.
We are hardest on ourselves. Espically those of us who hate to quit. Once you forgive you, forgiving H will be more within your reach. You do this, and letting go, and all the rest, falls into place.
A look into your future. I have forgiven myself, and W. The two most difficult people and events I had to forgive, and it is an ongoing process that get easier as it goes. Forgiving other people’s transgressions by comparison is a snap, no one has ever hurt me or let me down as much as W and myself. Once I forgave, compassion and contentment now reign for most of my life.
OneArt, from my view you are right on the cusp. Don’t be afraid, trust, it is so worth it. I am right here, supporting and encouraging you. I know what you face, and I know you can do it.
(((OneArt)))
Your friend,
DnJ
Feelings are fleeting. Be better, not bitter. Love the person, forgive the sin.
Just journaling this for myself and anyone who is looking for an MLC journey.
Because I have not responded to the more subtle attempts to poke and prod at me, he has now done something, with no warning, that caused me slight embarrassment and a little money. It is definitely the kind of thing I would have contacted him about in the past to either express hurt or anger. I think it is a threefer: 1) punish me for not responding; 2) up the game to try to get a response; 3) try to get me to rage so he feels justified in moving forward. Sorry H, not happening. Oh yes, and during the course of this incident it became clear that he has either moved in with the OW or is about to. He knows he put this event into action, but he has no idea if I have learned about it yet.
So, how does he feel me out to see if I have found out about it? He texts the at home child to see if he has been blocked. He knows the older one has blocked him but sends them group messages (she can't see) as though she has not. When I see the individual text or a call, I know that he is testing to see if he is blocked.
The text to the at home child smacks of something his lawyer put him up to. It is almost a homework assignment of questions that he has not ever asked the child. It seems that he is trying to prove to someone that he knows what is going on the child's life. I'm pretty sure the child will be annoyed by this and not respond.
Upon learning about his move in with the OW I was upset. But not in the way I would have expected. There were no tears. I have been expecting it and frankly I was hoping it wouldn't happen, but not for the usual reasons.
I learned from the first OW that they broke up about 3 weeks after he moved into her house (but of course in reality it dragged out another two months while he was getting out). I think he likes the fantasy of the affair, not the reality.
His first EA was with a woman he worked with. It went on for about six months until I discovered it. After I learned about the first PA (which was many years later) he told me that he never got over the EA until he started up with the PA. The first PA was long distance and was hidden most of the time. So, first one--EA is unrequited. Second, first PA is long distance, hidden, lots of barriers. Both of these extend limerence. Third one, that I call OW2 (another PA) has been one week off while he works and she has her kids, then one week on while he's off and her kids are with dad. Thus, another fantasy, which probably explains why it has endured.
Now that he is moving in or has, it is going to get real very quickly. She has teens who live at home at least half time. The house is small and a dump with limited bathroom facilities (courtesy of the tax records). He is big time OCD and has to have everything just so. She has a big hairy dog. He hates pets. I could go on and on. The point, after 18 months of the relationship (I'm guessing) the limerence is already fading (and keep in mind he is back on OLD poking at me, adding pictures, changing his profile, fishing for supply). This is not looking good.
If they break up, I'll be where I was with the separation agreement. Once he and OW1 broke up, he would not sign, comment upon, or discuss that agreement. Oy vey. Finally got my trial date a long, long way out. So much time that it is inevitable there will be a break-up before it happens.
My lawyer doesn't want to do anything in the case, she thinks it will be dismissed long before we get to the end, and if not, I will have saved money. I'm glad she is pragmatic and always looking for ways to save me money, but this can get disheartening. I wish he had stayed in his bachelor pad where he could stay on the OLD around the clock, text and email women without hiding, etc. And did I mention that he, OW1 and OW2 all live in the same extremely small town and work at the same place. What a nightmare.
Now that he is moving in or has, it is going to get real very quickly. She has teens who live at home at least half time. The house is small and a dump with limited bathroom facilities (courtesy of the tax records). He is big time OCD and has to have everything just so. She has a big hairy dog. He hates pets. I could go on and on.
Lol. Oh he!! no, that's NOT going to last.
Sorry he's poking at you. My ex and I were very civilized during our divorce, and mine was relatively smooth, but I STILL get a knot in my stomach when I see an email in my inbox from him (thankfully that almost never happens now). The smooth sweet language always couched some kind of gotcha or bad news from him.
I do have to approach him sometime in the next few months to ask about his retirement plans (he has an option to take an early retirement in a year, which means then I would get my share of that early retirement). I hate to ask though as I almost think he would postpone his retirement out of spite if he thought I needed the money.
Don't let him get to you. Just keep doing what's best for you and the kids.
Now, the way he is handling the litigation, as well as the fear he exhibits, make me think it is really very serious passive-aggressive behavior and BPD/bipolar. In the end it really doesn't matter. What matters is the behaviors and the person he is showing me and the kids now.
OneArt, this kind of stuck out to me so i thought i would post. Learning about narcisism, BPD, bipolar, and their spectrums and how some may overlap gave me a lot of awareness about others, especially ex and a couple coworkers. I know im inept to be making diagnoses, but at the same time the symptoms/signs are there. Right out of a textbook for one former coworker. I mention this because by being aware i have been able to deal w/them a little differently than i had been and it has significantly helped.
Just be aware bipolar and BPD (borderline personality disorder) are two COMPLETELY different things.
Also - when trying to diagnose a WAS - try to ascertain what they were like BEFORE their crisis. Somemay look like they have a diagnosis during their crisis but were normal before nd will be normal after. Others, like my ex, displayed signs of narcissism and mild bipolar from the very beginning of the relationship that I just overlooked or didn't recognize.
Yes KML. That is why I struggle with the narcissism. There were some aspects there before, but nothing like now. I know BPD/bipolar aren't the same. Should have written it out differently. I think MLC/BPD (fear of abandonment/promiscuity/drugs, etc.) and the counselor I last saw (a PhD) said she thought it was MLC/BPD/and bipolar II. She said there aren't clear boundaries between these things and people can have parts of different ones of them. She said she thought if 20 psychologists diagnosed him they would come up with different findings). I haven't seen much mania, mostly depression, but I haven't spent a lot of time with him over the last 3 years.
Before the crisis: passive-aggressive (would say he would do things and never do them, would never say what he thought should be done but would complain after), somewhat selfish (but I'm told lots of men are, sorry guys), emotionally shallow but had empathy, and lazy. He had no ambition. Remember he was a non-drinker, a non-smoker, and zealously opposed to these things.
After: zero empathy, entitled, extremely passive-aggressive, controlling, and secretive. Abuses medications, drinks, maybe smokes. But the biggest thing is that he doesn't seem to be able to let me go. I don't think it has anything to do with me, I think it is his fears. The fear of abandonment and the passive-aggressiveness are what he shows me the most.
I don't think a lot of the BPD stuff was there before, but there was definitely push/pull, emotional distancing, and lots of pursuit/distancing behaviors. But all these have ramped up extraordinarily.
I don't think it matters what he is, except that I would like to strategize a way to get out of my situation, and it would help to get a handle on what was really going on with him to know what might work. For example, given his huge fear of abandonment, what if I write to him and tell him that I love him and want him to be happy and am willing to let him go (he always tells me to let him go, not sure what he is looking for to see that I have). I could say that I hope that we will always be friends and always be in each other's lives and I would always be here for him if he ever needed me. Now this would be terrible from a DB point, but I'm past that. It would definitely give him a lot of supply, but does that matter if it causes him to enter an agreement and get out of this, or would that supply be something that he doesn't want to let go of. None of this would be enforceable legally. I'm not doing this so nobody freak out on me, I'm just trying to figure out what the magic combination would be. Just trying to think through how to get him to let go so the kids and I can move on.
I have had my lawyer contact his and try to get to a resolution. I have contacted him myself and asked him to meet with me so we can bang these out. He won't let the lawyers talk and he will not talk to me. He is dragging everything out and nothing is moving forward in any way. Even the little baby steps he takes seem to get him really worked up in advance and he tries to get a reaction from me when he does them. He will not tell me a single term that he wants in the divorce (he won't even acknowledge what the issues are that need to be resolved). My lawyer said she's never seen anything like it. She said he can sit there for 9 more months and do nothing and then dismiss or get multiple continuances. She doesn't even want to start discovery because she doesn't think he will answer and she thinks he won't go through with anything. He doesn't even seem to care about the big tax change at the end of the year that is going to cost him a lot of money. Even though he complains about how much he has to pay me now (and there is a court order that requires him to do so), he isn't doing anything to move the case to a point where the court might require him to pay less.
I know Kyh that your W wanted you to move near her and I haven't seen that with others on the board. Mine has tried that multiple times now, including sending me real estate listings for expensive houses that he promises to buy me if I will. This strikes me as very BPD behavior.
He wants nothing to do with me, won't talk to me, but is stalling the divorce he filed. He seems to have moved in with OW2 but is still on OLD and poking at my profile and messing with my financial accounts that he is able to try to piss me off. He doesn't want to see the kids, but contacts them almost every day. This is so messed up.
Them wanting us to move really shows how far gone they are. I'm sorry you're dealing with this, the control factor is insane. Who in their right mind would follow their cheating spouse to another town to fulfill their MLC fantasy? Lol, and yet they think we should or would. I got luckier in that my ex was in such a hurry to run off w/om that she pushed for it quickly.
To me him not wanting to see the kids but trying to contact them = him not wanting to face the consequences of his actions. Thankfully my kids are too young to understand but yours know exactly what he's done.
