M 53 W 54, M since 98 D15, D19 8/2013 discovered EA, W maintained contact with OM until 10/14 7/2/17 W said she wanted S, 7/25/17 moved out of MBR 12/17 W says moving out 5/18, W still in home.
I don't want to apply too much meaning to her actions. It's imposable to completely ignore.
I just thought I should journal here because it has seemed to stay with me. Later I will reread these threads and it is interesting to see what was going on.
M 53 W 54, M since 98 D15, D19 8/2013 discovered EA, W maintained contact with OM until 10/14 7/2/17 W said she wanted S, 7/25/17 moved out of MBR 12/17 W says moving out 5/18, W still in home.
So W and I spend a considerable amount of time together. Mostly centered around food or watching movies. She demonstrates much more respect and I don't micromanage. I listen more than I speak and for the most part, it is working. Still no intimacy. Sometimes I feel like things could lead there, but I try to default to "I'm still going to let her make the first move". This too is another 180.
I still have times when I feel suspicious, angry and resentful, but it is usually when W isn't around. I mitigate those feelings and they go away.
I often wonder if there is something else that I need to be doing. If I have been friend-zoned and I am again wasting my time. Perhaps we are going through a process of a reset and I need to be patient.
When I look to God, I feel like I just need to be patient. When I embrace my God give masculine energy I tend to think I shouldn't tolerate this and should look at moving along.
If there is some way I should be or a behavior I should increase, I wish I knew what it was.
M 53 W 54, M since 98 D15, D19 8/2013 discovered EA, W maintained contact with OM until 10/14 7/2/17 W said she wanted S, 7/25/17 moved out of MBR 12/17 W says moving out 5/18, W still in home.
So W and I spend a considerable amount of time together. Mostly centered around food or watching movies. She demonstrates much more respect and I don't micromanage. I listen more than I speak and for the most part, it is working. Still no intimacy. Sometimes I feel like things could lead there, but I try to default to "I'm still going to let her make the first move". This too is another 180.
I still have times when I feel suspicious, angry and resentful, but it is usually when W isn't around. I mitigate those feelings and they go away.
I often wonder if there is something else that I need to be doing. If I have been friend-zoned and I am again wasting my time. Perhaps we are going through a process of a reset and I need to be patient.
When I look to God, I feel like I just need to be patient. When I embrace my God give masculine energy I tend to think I shouldn't tolerate this and should look at moving along.
If there is some way I should be or a behavior I should increase, I wish I knew what it was.
No advice here, just that you seem to be in a similar place as me. It's tough. I at least try (not very successful all the time) to remind myself that where I"m at now is much better than where i was a few weeks/months ago.
Married: 15yrs Ages: Me 49, W 44 Kids: S12 BD: around 4/14
No advice here, just that you seem to be in a similar place as me. It's tough. I at least try (not very successful all the time) to remind myself that where I"m at now is much better than where i was a few weeks/months ago.
I can't argue with that.
M 53 W 54, M since 98 D15, D19 8/2013 discovered EA, W maintained contact with OM until 10/14 7/2/17 W said she wanted S, 7/25/17 moved out of MBR 12/17 W says moving out 5/18, W still in home.
I just read something that resonates with me and may very well speak to others here.
"Secure people don't feel the need to control the situation. They realize that they can either adjust and if needed, just walk away."
I think this is the core meaning of why it is so important to GAL. By restoring one's self-esteem, we are able to Detach. So why is it so important to Detach?
1. It stops any "Fight or Flight" dynamic and removes pressure on both parties. Stop the chase. 2. Works to restore the masculine/feminine dynamic in the R. This is why NGS is so toxic to an R. 3. It improves the attractiveness and perceived value of the LBS.
I am by no means an expert, but I am the type of person that better learns this type of stuff when I feel I understand it. Wait, was that in its self, controlling behavior? lol Anyway, I hope this might help others.
M 53 W 54, M since 98 D15, D19 8/2013 discovered EA, W maintained contact with OM until 10/14 7/2/17 W said she wanted S, 7/25/17 moved out of MBR 12/17 W says moving out 5/18, W still in home.
Well, you better find a secure person within yourself.
Insecurity is not only unattractive, but it's also miserable.
M 53 W 54, M since 98 D15, D19 8/2013 discovered EA, W maintained contact with OM until 10/14 7/2/17 W said she wanted S, 7/25/17 moved out of MBR 12/17 W says moving out 5/18, W still in home.
Just checking in. Not much has changed, which is a good thing. I am often reminded that piecing is rarely an event and usually more of a process. How does one know when the process has begun?
M 53 W 54, M since 98 D15, D19 8/2013 discovered EA, W maintained contact with OM until 10/14 7/2/17 W said she wanted S, 7/25/17 moved out of MBR 12/17 W says moving out 5/18, W still in home.
Today my youngest is no longer D15, she is now D16. Scary, I know. W and I also just found out that a male friend of hers is more than a male friend. It is all very new and W and I discussed it after dinner last night. There are some boundaries that although they have been in place, need to be reiterated and we are working as a team to plan mitigation.
Along with this Team-building activity, I have noticed a continued moving closer of W. A more consistent attitude that she is on my side and consideration and respect are ongoing. If I happen to make a pointed comment, she defaults to assuming it is made in jest and doesn't feel the need to be defensive. All good stuff.
For those taking notes. I am intentionally continuing to listen and validate much more than I ever did pre-BD. I have begun to tell more of my own stories, but I know not to over-share. As MWD says monitor your success and proceed accordingly.
Still no intimacy. I struggle with whether I should try to initiate or continue to be patient. I sometimes feel like I am getting signals but perhaps it is my imagination. Advice appreciated.
I also ponder whether there can be piecing without reconciliation. I guess I have thought for a long time that there would be some sort of big R talk and we would both express our desires and intentions and that doesn't seem to be in the cards. Thoughts?
M 53 W 54, M since 98 D15, D19 8/2013 discovered EA, W maintained contact with OM until 10/14 7/2/17 W said she wanted S, 7/25/17 moved out of MBR 12/17 W says moving out 5/18, W still in home.
There was no big R talk in my case. Actions count more than words.
Me: 44 H: 44 Kids: 20, 16, 16, and 10 Together/Married: 22 years H announced he was emotionally detached and considering D: 4/4/16 H announced he is going to try to stay and reconnect: 5/1/16
Very true Rose. Thanks for pointing it out. I sometimes forget. A healthy MR would contain both. My W was never a verbal person. Yet since I started DB and validating she seems to yammer on about her day. Not complaining, but it is very different.
Rose888, do you think that the big R talks needs to happen, having gone through this?
M 53 W 54, M since 98 D15, D19 8/2013 discovered EA, W maintained contact with OM until 10/14 7/2/17 W said she wanted S, 7/25/17 moved out of MBR 12/17 W says moving out 5/18, W still in home.
I think it depends. We had several R talks right after BD and we had two counseling sessions. I feel like we each understood each other's concerns and feelings.
We also didn't have an affair in our situation.
Our last big R talk was in counseling, and at that point, H was still angry with me.
We've had short comments about R since then. I think that is sufficient in our case.
Me: 44 H: 44 Kids: 20, 16, 16, and 10 Together/Married: 22 years H announced he was emotionally detached and considering D: 4/4/16 H announced he is going to try to stay and reconnect: 5/1/16
Looking for a plan. Should I continue to wait it out or is it my job to progress things?
I won't initiate any R talk, I know that.
M 53 W 54, M since 98 D15, D19 8/2013 discovered EA, W maintained contact with OM until 10/14 7/2/17 W said she wanted S, 7/25/17 moved out of MBR 12/17 W says moving out 5/18, W still in home.
I'm not anywhere close to where you are(R). I know you have been in limbo for awhile my suggestion would be to really let it sit and pray about it. Also know that I am with you brother! Blessings!
M51 w50 T-20Yrs M-16Yrs S15- mad at W for not trying and giving up 1 Awesum dog BD 10/31/17 separate rooms 02/08/18 wife moved out 05/17/18
I am in a very similar position to you and have the same questions. My advice to you and to myself is remember what you said at the weekend.
Originally Posted by RR17
I have noticed a continued moving closer of W. A more consistent attitude that she is on my side and consideration and respect are ongoing. If I happen to make a pointed comment, she defaults to assuming it is made in jest and doesn't feel the need to be defensive. All good stuff.
Isn't this hard evidence of continued progress being made? Your DBing is having an effect.........it just might be taking longer than you first imagined. Remember patience and the squirrel analogy!
LBH 47 WW 47, M 15 T 18 D 11 S 14 BD, I moved out (duped) Jan 18 3 yr EA with ex-H discovered: Feb 18 I moved back in: Aug 18 (against her wishes) ...No R No M/C, continued limbo, dropping the rope!
RR stay the course! I know patience is hard, I am the most impatient person on the planet.
But it answer is always the same. Do you want a D? Then go ahead and file and move it forward? If not, then you are not ready. Continue to detach, GAL, and keep up the 180s.
Only you know the answer to your question. But don't do anything out of impatience.
M(53), W(54),D(19) M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017 Ring and Piecing since March 2018
But it answer is always the same. Do you want a D? Then go ahead and file and move it forward? If not, then you are not ready. Continue to detach, GAL, and keep up the 180s.
Not sure where that came from. Steve, have you caught up in my sitch? I haven't indicated that I am moving any closer to a D. I either miscommunicated something or you misread.
M 53 W 54, M since 98 D15, D19 8/2013 discovered EA, W maintained contact with OM until 10/14 7/2/17 W said she wanted S, 7/25/17 moved out of MBR 12/17 W says moving out 5/18, W still in home.
But it answer is always the same. Do you want a D? Then go ahead and file and move it forward? If not, then you are not ready. Continue to detach, GAL, and keep up the 180s.
Not sure where that came from. Steve, have you caught up in my sitch? I haven't indicated that I am moving any closer to a D. I either miscommunicated something or you misread.
Actually, I was distracted when I wrote that and didn't make the point the way I intended. I should have set it up with: "Many posters struggle with patience, and it causes them to contemplate filing for D when they do not want one." This was in relation to you trying to move progress along.
The overall point was that doing anything out of impatience (whether it is those contemplating D, or those that are starting to show signs of Ring but want to hurry things along) will not be helpful to your sitch. Sorry for the lack of clarity!
Last edited by Steve85; 10/08/1806:52 PM.
M(53), W(54),D(19) M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017 Ring and Piecing since March 2018
Hi RR. How do you progress things? You keep working on yourself. I know itīs easy to say but...
Patience, but itīs up to you at the end...
I'm not sure I understand. Can you elaborate?
M 53 W 54, M since 98 D15, D19 8/2013 discovered EA, W maintained contact with OM until 10/14 7/2/17 W said she wanted S, 7/25/17 moved out of MBR 12/17 W says moving out 5/18, W still in home.
But it answer is always the same. Do you want a D? Then go ahead and file and move it forward? If not, then you are not ready. Continue to detach, GAL, and keep up the 180s.
Not sure where that came from. Steve, have you caught up in my sitch? I haven't indicated that I am moving any closer to a D. I either miscommunicated something or you misread.
Actually, I was distracted when I wrote that and didn't make the point the way I intended. I should have set it up with: "Many posters struggle with patience, and it causes them to contemplate filing for D when they do not want one." This was in relation to you trying to move progress along.
The overall point was that doing anything out of impatience (whether it is those contemplating D, or those that are starting to show signs of Ring but want to hurry things along) will not be helpful to your sitch. Sorry for the lack of clarity!
Okay, just thought you seemed a bit out of context.
I'm not sure that my motivation is out of impatience. This all seems like a dance and I simply wonder if it is my move. I have been reading about returning my Alpha (which I recommend for all LBSs BTW) and several sources refer to intimacy as being the responsibility of the male. Not just sex, but romantic intimacy, affection.
I kind of feel like at this point, I may have been put in the "Friend Zone".
If stay the course and continue to wait is the proper plan, I can do that.
I have yet to read where it is the Ws job to initiate the next step. IDK
Quote
Hi RR. How do you progress things? You keep working on yourself. I know itīs easy to say but...
Patience, but itīs up to you at the end...
neffer, I realized that I read this the wrong way. I thought you asked, "How do I process things?"
To address your question, I guess I would move closer to W. Test the waters of none sexual physical affection?
M 53 W 54, M since 98 D15, D19 8/2013 discovered EA, W maintained contact with OM until 10/14 7/2/17 W said she wanted S, 7/25/17 moved out of MBR 12/17 W says moving out 5/18, W still in home.
But it answer is always the same. Do you want a D? Then go ahead and file and move it forward? If not, then you are not ready. Continue to detach, GAL, and keep up the 180s.
Not sure where that came from. Steve, have you caught up in my sitch? I haven't indicated that I am moving any closer to a D. I either miscommunicated something or you misread.
Actually, I was distracted when I wrote that and didn't make the point the way I intended. I should have set it up with: "Many posters struggle with patience, and it causes them to contemplate filing for D when they do not want one." This was in relation to you trying to move progress along.
The overall point was that doing anything out of impatience (whether it is those contemplating D, or those that are starting to show signs of Ring but want to hurry things along) will not be helpful to your sitch. Sorry for the lack of clarity!
Okay, just thought you seemed a bit out of context.
I'm not sure that my motivation is out of impatience. This all seems like a dance and I simply wonder if it is my move. I have been reading about returning my Alpha (which I recommend for all LBSs BTW) and several sources refer to intimacy as being the responsibility of the male. Not just sex, but romantic intimacy, affection.
I kind of feel like at this point, I may have been put in the "Friend Zone".
If stay the course and continue to wait is the proper plan, I can do that.
I have yet to read where it is the Ws job to initiate the next step. IDK
Yeah I should have quoted your post.
Look this is a dance, and it is a delicate dance. Pursue and pressure too hard and too fast and she will run the other way quickly. You need to tread lightly. That is where the patience comes in. Maybe you've been friend-zoned, or maybe she is just going very slowly. For lots of reasons. But the lighthouse analogy still stands. You shine the light, she sails towards you. You do not go towards her. The time may come when you do become more aggressive, but you need to take it slow.
Now to your question about non-sexual physical contact. Look up Talk and Touch charges. I think your sitch is to the point where you could try those and see if it sparks a closer connection.
M(53), W(54),D(19) M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017 Ring and Piecing since March 2018
Now to your question about non-sexual physical contact. Look up Talk and Touch charges. I think your sitch is to the point where you could try those and see if it sparks a closer connection.
I just read about this. Without knowing about it, it has been going on already. Especially the Talk Charge part and to a lesser amount Touch.
Last edited by RR17; 10/08/1808:00 PM.
M 53 W 54, M since 98 D15, D19 8/2013 discovered EA, W maintained contact with OM until 10/14 7/2/17 W said she wanted S, 7/25/17 moved out of MBR 12/17 W says moving out 5/18, W still in home.
Thats right RR. Like sailing somewhere but trying not to shake the boat...
Not an easy thing to do that pull-push game. Take it as that: a game. But using your patience and no expectation costume. You know you can do this. You have walked a long way...
A little more patience man. Please.
WW H(me): 53 W: 48 T: 27 M: 22 S: 18 Piecing since 03/2016 Saw the light in the storm
Once my W was open to it, I started doing this thing where I would get ready for work, then get back in bed and pull her close to put her head on my chest while I stroked her hair. She loves having her hair played with, so this was perfect. I did that for about 3 weeks and then one morning she initiated sex while I was doing that. Only thing bad thing was I was late for work. LOL
M(53), W(54),D(19) M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017 Ring and Piecing since March 2018
I'm not seeing a clear answer. I going to pray and look for more opportunities for this Touch Charge thing.
M 53 W 54, M since 98 D15, D19 8/2013 discovered EA, W maintained contact with OM until 10/14 7/2/17 W said she wanted S, 7/25/17 moved out of MBR 12/17 W says moving out 5/18, W still in home.
Plan B is the sleepwalker zombie enactment. Guns at home?...
I have no idea what you are talking about.
M 53 W 54, M since 98 D15, D19 8/2013 discovered EA, W maintained contact with OM until 10/14 7/2/17 W said she wanted S, 7/25/17 moved out of MBR 12/17 W says moving out 5/18, W still in home.
Now I'm curious, neffer. I assume there is humor involved and I enjoy that sort of thing.
M 53 W 54, M since 98 D15, D19 8/2013 discovered EA, W maintained contact with OM until 10/14 7/2/17 W said she wanted S, 7/25/17 moved out of MBR 12/17 W says moving out 5/18, W still in home.
Same here. Not originally, but for the last 40 years.
M 53 W 54, M since 98 D15, D19 8/2013 discovered EA, W maintained contact with OM until 10/14 7/2/17 W said she wanted S, 7/25/17 moved out of MBR 12/17 W says moving out 5/18, W still in home.
You wouldn't believe how many arguments that causes in the southern part of the states.
When you say far south do you mean el cono sur?
W 34 Me 42 Married 7 years together 8 0 kids 1 beloved dog BD 4/6/2018 I moved out 4/7/2018 I moved back in alone 8/05/2018 I file 3/06/2019 D official 5/7/2019
Exactly D! My country is the fill of the sandwich between two giants. It was called the Switzerland of America in the 50s. We are still proud of our history, our giant brothers are collapsing with corruption and civil right restraints. Sad...
WW H(me): 53 W: 48 T: 27 M: 22 S: 18 Piecing since 03/2016 Saw the light in the storm
I lived for a year in one of the giants, and I miss the mate culture. What a beautiful but chaotic land.
W 34 Me 42 Married 7 years together 8 0 kids 1 beloved dog BD 4/6/2018 I moved out 4/7/2018 I moved back in alone 8/05/2018 I file 3/06/2019 D official 5/7/2019
I just want to know what "sleepwalker zombie enactment" is.
M 53 W 54, M since 98 D15, D19 8/2013 discovered EA, W maintained contact with OM until 10/14 7/2/17 W said she wanted S, 7/25/17 moved out of MBR 12/17 W says moving out 5/18, W still in home.
Cmon RR, just leave it there... It was my idea of a plan B. Somekind of a massage or similar you give to your W pretending being asleep, sleepwalking or zombie possessed. Problems appear if you have guns at home, no pistols, no crossbows...
It was not a long shot...of course Im not doodler, the master.
I feel ashamed...
WW H(me): 53 W: 48 T: 27 M: 22 S: 18 Piecing since 03/2016 Saw the light in the storm
Actually, the emotional detachment of this might work with W, if all I wanted was to get some.
I am looking for movement in the MR.
I confess that I am struggling with expectations.
M 53 W 54, M since 98 D15, D19 8/2013 discovered EA, W maintained contact with OM until 10/14 7/2/17 W said she wanted S, 7/25/17 moved out of MBR 12/17 W says moving out 5/18, W still in home.
I spent time this weekend re-reading most of my old threads. Wow, hours of reading. I remember most of the circumstances surrounding the posts but looking at the time frame was enlightening. Not in a million years could I tell you when some of these things happened. 3 months ago, 6 months ago, a year? I'm bad with this sort of thing.
Anyway, some of the posts made me feel good and some reminded me of pain. Very cathartic and insightful. Things that I felt needed explanation are nothing more than dust in the wind. Thank you all for your continued support. I see where prudent advice was given and the student just wasn't ready to hear it. I also wanted to see if I could figure out how long it had been since intimacy. I thought it had been like 6 or 8 months, more like 4.
So, in the spirit of journaling, I will document an interesting experiment. Upon reading about Talk and Touch Charges (dumb name, btw) upon Steve85's recommendation, I decided to try something. I had initiated a few hugs recently that were well received. Even appreciated although I struggle to imagine W initiating any unless something really profound happens. Friday W went to a friends BDay party and spent the night as it was an hour away and these girls don't catch up much and either because of 3 vodka tonics or some party food that had sat out too long or a guilty conscious, she came home Sat morning with what seems to be mild food poisoning. I was kind and a little amused, but I digress. I tell you this because of last night. After getting the clear to do spicy wings she had said that she seemed okay. Fast forward to this morning. W had extra time and instead of being MIA, I made myself available. Meaning I was around where she was. No expectations but curious as to what she might do. She did nothing and went to take her shower and get ready for work. Fine Before she left for work W made a point to come into my home office and say she was leaving. She also added that this morning coffee wasn't sitting well on her stomach. She then seemed to be monitoring for my reaction. I didn't react and she said "What?" I shook my head and said nothing. Was this some sort of excuse for not initiating? Was it a new form of consideration for my feelings?
Who knows and it's mindreading. Just thought it was interesting.
Should I back off with these occasional hugs?
M 53 W 54, M since 98 D15, D19 8/2013 discovered EA, W maintained contact with OM until 10/14 7/2/17 W said she wanted S, 7/25/17 moved out of MBR 12/17 W says moving out 5/18, W still in home.
Only you know this for sure. For me touch charges in the beginning were very small. A hand on her shoulder as I passed by the chair she was in, or putting my hand on the small of her back as I passed behind her in the kitchen. I didn't graduate to initiating hugs until after those seem to be well received.
So as with anything in DBing, gauge its effectiveness and act accordingly. Do what works. Don't do what doesn't.
M(53), W(54),D(19) M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017 Ring and Piecing since March 2018
That's what I'll do. No hugs, but causal touches. No expectations. Monitor reactions.
Thanks, Steve.
M 53 W 54, M since 98 D15, D19 8/2013 discovered EA, W maintained contact with OM until 10/14 7/2/17 W said she wanted S, 7/25/17 moved out of MBR 12/17 W says moving out 5/18, W still in home.
Just a little journaling. No expectations, but since I tend to focus on the work that needs to be done and overlook small accomplishments I will document a few.
D16 has a new boyfriend her 1st. During a W D16 discussion where W explained that D16 is not allowed to entertain in her room alone. W shared post discussion that she told her that if D16 wants to invite BF over to watch TV that W and I would be happy to go upstairs. That would be MBR. 1st the fact W said it and 2 she told me.
While sharing about some work story and me paying all of my attention to W. W stopped and asked why are you looking at me like that? I responded, "Just listening". This stands out because in the past W didn't seem cognisant to whether I was paying attention or not. Now she seems consciously aware.
I know these things may sound petty, but when I get discouraged it will be here for review.
M 53 W 54, M since 98 D15, D19 8/2013 discovered EA, W maintained contact with OM until 10/14 7/2/17 W said she wanted S, 7/25/17 moved out of MBR 12/17 W says moving out 5/18, W still in home.
D16 has a new boyfriend her 1st. During a W D16 discussion where W explained that D16 is not allowed to entertain in her room alone. W shared post discussion that she told her that if D16 wants to invite BF over to watch TV that W and I would be happy to go upstairs.
Hell naw. I'd tell that kid before he ever stepped in my house what the expectations are. Teenagers are not to be alone and unsupervised. They needs parents to be parents, they don't need parents to be their friend.
Originally Posted by RR17
While sharing about some work story and me paying all of my attention to W. W stopped and asked why are you looking at me like that? I responded, "Just listening". This stands out because in the past W didn't seem cognisant to whether I was paying attention or not. Now she seems consciously aware.
I think this is great. People, especially women, love to feel like they are being heard. Listening is so underrated. Be sure to ask her questions and go deeper into what she's telling you from time to time.
H 34 W 29 BD 3/12/18 Divorce Busted Spring 19
It is not things that bother us, but the stories we tell ourselves about things.
Actually, the emotional detachment of this might work with W, if all I wanted was to get some.
I am looking for movement in the MR.
I confess that I am struggling with expectations.
And I just want to reiterate to you and everyone, that there is no such thing as emotionally detached sex with a WAS. And I firmly believe that the people who think and say they can have unemotional sex with the WAS are lying to themselves and the board.
H 34 W 29 BD 3/12/18 Divorce Busted Spring 19
It is not things that bother us, but the stories we tell ourselves about things.
People, especially women, love to feel like they are being heard. Listening is so underrated. Be sure to ask her questions and go deeper into what she's telling you from time to time.
A headshot from Ovr
WW H(me): 53 W: 48 T: 27 M: 22 S: 18 Piecing since 03/2016 Saw the light in the storm
People, especially women, love to feel like they are being heard. Listening is so underrated. Be sure to ask her questions and go deeper into what she's telling you from time to time.
A headshot from Ovr
lol, yes it is important to listen. Listening and validating is DB 101.
My point was more about W's awareness. Where she used to yammer on and although I was listening, she seemed to care less. Now she seems more aware of my attention.
M 53 W 54, M since 98 D15, D19 8/2013 discovered EA, W maintained contact with OM until 10/14 7/2/17 W said she wanted S, 7/25/17 moved out of MBR 12/17 W says moving out 5/18, W still in home.
Actually, the emotional detachment of this might work with W, if all I wanted was to get some.
I am looking for movement in the MR.
I confess that I am struggling with expectations.
And I just want to reiterate to you and everyone, that there is no such thing as emotionally detached sex with a WAS. And I firmly believe that the people who think and say they can have unemotional sex with the WAS are lying to themselves and the board.
I'm not sure it's impossible. The first time I did with my WAS I was pretty detached. My reading and study had prepared me well to attach no expectations or significance to it. She asked that I role play that we were strangers and I got into that. Funny thing was after that request she wasnt that into it the role playing.
I agree it is very difficult to do, and very dangerous since most cannot. But I don't think it is impossible.
M(53), W(54),D(19) M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017 Ring and Piecing since March 2018
Actually, the emotional detachment of this might work with W, if all I wanted was to get some.
I am looking for movement in the MR.
I confess that I am struggling with expectations.
And I just want to reiterate to you and everyone, that there is no such thing as emotionally detached sex with a WAS. And I firmly believe that the people who think and say they can have unemotional sex with the WAS are lying to themselves and the board.
I'm not sure it's impossible. The first time I did with my WAS I was pretty detached. My reading and study had prepared me well to attach no expectations or significance to it. She asked that I role play that we were strangers and I got into that. Funny thing was after that request she wasnt that into it the role playing.
I agree it is very difficult to do, and very dangerous since most cannot. But I don't think it is impossible.
Not imposable to me either. W and I had sex for 6 months after BD and into DB. It has been nearly 5 months since I stopped initiating and at this point, I'm sure there will be emotional attachment. But I am in what I believe is moving toward piecing. If W has attachment, good. I have come too far to abandon my plan.
Detachment is the key.
M 53 W 54, M since 98 D15, D19 8/2013 discovered EA, W maintained contact with OM until 10/14 7/2/17 W said she wanted S, 7/25/17 moved out of MBR 12/17 W says moving out 5/18, W still in home.
Detachment is key, yes. But what does sex release? Bonding hormones. And that is just the glimmer of hope that most LBS will focus on and see as something it is not.
H 34 W 29 BD 3/12/18 Divorce Busted Spring 19
It is not things that bother us, but the stories we tell ourselves about things.
I am on the bandwagon that you can have emotionless sex....it's just sex and have realized at first it was hard to detach after sex and not have expectations to now after this has been going on and I have pulled further away for a few months, I am close to declining sex but say what the heck, I can handle it.....it's just sex at this point.
Sex also releases stress!
H-50 W-48 T-19 M -18 S23, S14 BD - 5/9/2018 OM discovered 5/10/2018
In house sep - 8/18/2018 Rope drop 2/15/2019 R'ing since 3/15/2019
I will say that not initiating sex for several months has gone a long way with W.
She had said that she thought I only wanted her for sex. Not true. But it was her belief.
Spending time, listening and validating and removing the pressure that I might suggest it when opportunities arise have seemed to have had a very positive effect.
M 53 W 54, M since 98 D15, D19 8/2013 discovered EA, W maintained contact with OM until 10/14 7/2/17 W said she wanted S, 7/25/17 moved out of MBR 12/17 W says moving out 5/18, W still in home.
I will say that not initiating sex for several months has gone a long way with W.
She had said that she thought I only wanted her for sex. Not true. But it was her belief.
Spending time, listening and validating and removing the pressure that I might suggest it when opportunities arise have seemed to have had a very positive effect.
Yep, this is true. My W also has gone through periods where, because of the messages I've sent her, she thinks all I want from her is sex. 180ing coupled with not initiating can erase that illusion.
Of course the main reason for not initiating is because it reminds them that you disgust them. Never a good thing if R is your goal.
M(53), W(54),D(19) M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017 Ring and Piecing since March 2018
Yep, this is true. My W also has gone through periods where, because of the messages I've sent her, she thinks all I want from her is sex. 180ing coupled with not initiating can erase that illusion.
Of course the main reason for not initiating is because it reminds them that you disgust them. Never a good thing if R is your goal.
Steve, surely at some point we don't disgust them. lol
So if I'm not sure where I stand. Should I never try to initiate?
I suspect we are moving toward piecing, but since it is not one event, who knows?
M 53 W 54, M since 98 D15, D19 8/2013 discovered EA, W maintained contact with OM until 10/14 7/2/17 W said she wanted S, 7/25/17 moved out of MBR 12/17 W says moving out 5/18, W still in home.
So if I'm not sure where I stand. Should I never try to initiate?
Why not? As R2C says, take the lead and seduce her. The key is being natural and confident. Choose and appropiate moment and keep control of expectatives.
WW H(me): 53 W: 48 T: 27 M: 22 S: 18 Piecing since 03/2016 Saw the light in the storm
M 53 W 54, M since 98 D15, D19 8/2013 discovered EA, W maintained contact with OM until 10/14 7/2/17 W said she wanted S, 7/25/17 moved out of MBR 12/17 W says moving out 5/18, W still in home.
After some consideration, I have considered that Ws don't only reframe from sex because we disgust them. Although at the height of waywardness we certainly do.
I think that during DB they also may reframe because they don't want to send the message that things are Okay. Either out of compassion for the feelings (once they are capable of compassion) of the LBS or simply because it is a powerful holdback.
What do you think?
M 53 W 54, M since 98 D15, D19 8/2013 discovered EA, W maintained contact with OM until 10/14 7/2/17 W said she wanted S, 7/25/17 moved out of MBR 12/17 W says moving out 5/18, W still in home.
I think that during DB they also may reframe because they don't want to send the message that things are Okay. Either out of compassion for the feelings (once they are capable of compassion) of the LBS or simply because it is a powerful holdback.
I think you mean "refrain" and yes, I think a lot of that is because they "don't want to send the wrong message." And sure we can all sit here and say "I can still have sex with her and know that it doesn't mean anything" but the reality is we're usually trying to hang on to them by doing that.
M 53 W 54, M since 98 D15, D19 8/2013 discovered EA, W maintained contact with OM until 10/14 7/2/17 W said she wanted S, 7/25/17 moved out of MBR 12/17 W says moving out 5/18, W still in home.
In the most natural and confident way I asked. "I miss you, come on up? "
W: I can't. (which pisses me off. I hate when W blames outside forces instead of taking ownership)
M: What's wrong?
W: I'm content not doing it.
Well fine. But then W goes into an R talk which is, as usual, an abstract puzzle with missing pieces. I mostly listen and validate. Nothing new, just reasons for detachment and how she has nothing to look forward to. (I so wanted to say, who's fault is that, but I refrained). So I go upstairs and continue with my morning and she leaves without the usual goodbye.
Now, remember W has been moving toward me for some time. Demonstrating respect and consideration like I haven't seen in years. I say this because my actions were not appropriate for the initial stages of DBing.
I send a text: So not even a goodbye, I'm leaving? (I know, bad RR17)
W: Sorry. I didn't know whether to say anything or not. (these "sorrys" are something W could never do before.)
Anyway, this is the first text convo in months other than "can you pick up..."
The last text I sent was my mistake: Last thing I'm going to say. It is disappointing when you read something into what feels like some sort of progress, only to find out that you are completely wrong and probably wasting your time and heart.
No reply.
Later that evening, W shows up temp taking and suggests D15 is out with friends and do I want sushi. She is as if she wants to pick up right where we left off. Now I'm not reading too much into this. Should I have sent that last text? Probably not.
M 53 W 54, M since 98 D15, D19 8/2013 discovered EA, W maintained contact with OM until 10/14 7/2/17 W said she wanted S, 7/25/17 moved out of MBR 12/17 W says moving out 5/18, W still in home.
I don't regret it. At first and as I wrote it I initially regretted the text exchange, but now I not sure that it was a mistake either. W tends to get caught up in tasks and forcing a pause to reflect or add perspective hasn't seemed to set things back at all. The fact that I didn't react to some of her claims during the R talk, when I realize that she was merely trying to stop any kind of perceived attack, provided an opportunity to demonstrate a change in me. The few questions that I asked? She often didn't seem to know the answer. Like she was torn between what she feels and retaining some sort of hold-back to use when needed. The fact that she seemed to want to rush back to the harmony that we experienced prior to my attempt and the R talk speaks volumes as well.
On we go and patience prevails.
M 53 W 54, M since 98 D15, D19 8/2013 discovered EA, W maintained contact with OM until 10/14 7/2/17 W said she wanted S, 7/25/17 moved out of MBR 12/17 W says moving out 5/18, W still in home.
After a failed attempt to move romantically closer I have come to the realization that I read too much into what seemed like progress. One more time after the above-mentioned attempt I tried a more subtle approach and got the "I don't think of you that way". Along with a disgusted "why don't you know this?" look. I very matter of factly asked why this look.
I don't believe that there is someone else. The only thing that I can think to do is pull back again and focus on other things like me and my life. Not be so available. Limbo Land continues.
M 53 W 54, M since 98 D15, D19 8/2013 discovered EA, W maintained contact with OM until 10/14 7/2/17 W said she wanted S, 7/25/17 moved out of MBR 12/17 W says moving out 5/18, W still in home.
Sorry to read that RR. So its time to go GAL and low expectations to a minimum. Being there wainting for crumbs is a passive position man. Get DBing on again. Go GAL and show W what she is going to miss.
No expectations, moving forward RR. Its gonna be her loss. Be there for the girls, detach and GAL. What do you think?
WW H(me): 53 W: 48 T: 27 M: 22 S: 18 Piecing since 03/2016 Saw the light in the storm
Hey RR- I'm with Neff, I think you should refocus on you. minimize expectations and keep progressing being the best RR there could be. Patience is a virtue. Wishing you Peace and Harmony.
M51 w50 T-20Yrs M-16Yrs S15- mad at W for not trying and giving up 1 Awesum dog BD 10/31/17 separate rooms 02/08/18 wife moved out 05/17/18
Thanks, guys. I'm still optimistic, remember no expectations. In fact, until your responses, I simply saw this as a small setback.
Maybe all this other behavior has all been just to keep the peace? Perhaps, but I don't think so and it really doesn't matter. I'm done trying to fix her and I'm detached to a great extent.
If anything it has been a reminder that if there is to be proper R it has to be proper.
M 53 W 54, M since 98 D15, D19 8/2013 discovered EA, W maintained contact with OM until 10/14 7/2/17 W said she wanted S, 7/25/17 moved out of MBR 12/17 W says moving out 5/18, W still in home.
I wish I had some sage advice for you but just want to encourage you
You read all your old threads so just think of how far you have come
Friend zone is not ideal but it beats the enemy zone
Like others and you have said I think you are right to continue to be patient
So while you recently initiated and were rejected
It seems like it did not set you back
So shame it off and keep being patient
Also agree with your approach to continue to be an active listener
The fact that she is noticing that was the biggest positive sign to me that you are on the right path
Best wishes
Gordie 40s W 40s M20+ kids 2016 BD W fantasy affair w OM1 I do everything wrong 2017 I start to DB W says TLTL files for D PA w OM2 2018 I do LRT W drops filing and OM2 situation slowly improving
It is always insightful when I read what others pick up on, or pick out from, what I have written. Helps to see the trees from the forest.
Active Listening is a skill that I think most all LBS could benefit from improving. Not only does it make the W feel heard, which would be worth it in its self, but it also allows an LBS the opportunity to demonstrate Confidence Masculine behavior. Hear that all you NGS types? Once you reach the point where you can listen to condemning accusations without reacting like a wounded victim, you send a very different powerful message. IMO
Anyway, on we go.
M 53 W 54, M since 98 D15, D19 8/2013 discovered EA, W maintained contact with OM until 10/14 7/2/17 W said she wanted S, 7/25/17 moved out of MBR 12/17 W says moving out 5/18, W still in home.
Thanks neffer. I appreciate the compliment. I never come here seeking it, but it's nice to hear that I can contribute. The group has been a tremendous asset to me and I can only hope to give back.
In keeping with my efforts to document the good, not just the bad:
Speaking of compliments. (Something that I have often struggled with) Something out of the normal happened today. I met my W and her coworker CFO today to show them commercial space as therir building has been purchased and they have been given notice. We three had lunch after and all went well. Later W sends an email and adds "BTW Andrea very impressed with you."
Seemed odd and out of character, but I'll take it. Not reading too much into it, but worth noting.
Last edited by RR17; 11/07/1811:48 PM.
M 53 W 54, M since 98 D15, D19 8/2013 discovered EA, W maintained contact with OM until 10/14 7/2/17 W said she wanted S, 7/25/17 moved out of MBR 12/17 W says moving out 5/18, W still in home.
I almost feel guilty posting such a minor detail, but considering my W, it is another very different behavior. I feel guilty especially when I have advised others not to trust what they hear.
I have to admit that I ponder the chance that it is a ploy to throw me off her trail, but I wouldn't bet on it. Prior to leaving for work today, she came up and again thanked me for helping them with this. Giving me credit for much of anything is unusual and the tone and eye contact seems sincere. Time will tell. As for me? I'm not going to change what I have been doing. Manage expectations and focus on my own stuff.
M 53 W 54, M since 98 D15, D19 8/2013 discovered EA, W maintained contact with OM until 10/14 7/2/17 W said she wanted S, 7/25/17 moved out of MBR 12/17 W says moving out 5/18, W still in home.
Great point neffer. Keep the negative thoughts away.
For the benefit of others, I want to point out that part of my 180s has been to study meditation. Mostly Mindful Meditation. Besides giving me something other than my sitch to focus on in spare time, it has helped me to better understand that thoughts, "negative thoughts" especially, are just things. They are not who we are.
We are able to mitigate these unuseful feelings of destitute and despair.
Stop the incessant rumination.
All important parts of restoring Confident, masculin energy. Lose that bata, NGS.
There are many videos and books out there on the subject. I have enjoyed News Journalist Dan Harris' journey to discover the hows and whys. He presents it in an entertaining, less metaphysical, more practical, approach. Hope this helps those that need it.
M 53 W 54, M since 98 D15, D19 8/2013 discovered EA, W maintained contact with OM until 10/14 7/2/17 W said she wanted S, 7/25/17 moved out of MBR 12/17 W says moving out 5/18, W still in home.
Every other week I serve at our church. D16 serves in the children's program every Sunday. W has been staying home and usually watching online, often preparing breakfast. In the past with D16 out and 2 hours to spare, I have as described, tried to initiate sex. Now keep in mind, W has continued to move closer and other than physical affection, she has exhibited all indications of moving toward R. More respect than I have seen in years. Consideration and platonic harmony. These attempts have all failed and sometimes resulted in an R talk.
This morning W comes up and knocks on MBR door where I sleep and states that she is going to another local church with a friend. I don't respond. She asks "What is that look on your face?" Although I'm not aware of any specific look and typically she doesn't care to notice any nonverbal cues anyway. I respond "I think you're going simply to avoid a situation". That's it. Well, she goes into this "You think I'm going to church blah, blah blah.." I say nothing except "You asked what I was thinking".
She goes back downstairs and continues to get ready to meet her friend. Shortly after, I go down to make more coffee. I knocked on her door and told her that I didn't want her to go. Well, this was interesting. She asked, "why not, are you preventing me from attending church?" Although she is in a bible study program, she hasn't been to church in many months. I repeated, " I'm asking you not to go". To which she expanded on the very thing that I accused her of doing. "Well I'm not going to stay here and let you tell me all the bad things...blah blah blah" I replied that "If you don't want to be held to your past behaviors, I expect the same." I go back to what I was doing and I can hear her pacing around and pondering what to do. Again she asks "Why don't you want me to go?" I replay " Because I said so" That was enough to justify her defiance. She says "Well I'm going. You're not my father". I don't respond. Although miffed, I am not overly attached to this silly stunt. Running away has always been W's default go to and watching her try to insight anger to justify her actings was, I have to admit, mildly amusing. She leaves and in the usual fashion, I send one more text. "I'm not your father, but I'm still your husband." No reply
Hind sights always 20/20 but at the time I felt putting my foot down was the thing to do. When she said that she would never try to stop me from going to any place, especially not church. I calmly responded that I wouldn't go if she told me not to. Hearing her make accusations about what she knows that I will do, all the meanwhile never wanting to be held to her past, shows selfish WAW behavior that I haven't seen in many months. Although she struggled, she ultimately betrayed my wishes. I stood up without losing my cool.
Thoughts and feedback appreciated.
M 53 W 54, M since 98 D15, D19 8/2013 discovered EA, W maintained contact with OM until 10/14 7/2/17 W said she wanted S, 7/25/17 moved out of MBR 12/17 W says moving out 5/18, W still in home.
What was your real reason for you to tell her you didn't want her to go? Why didn't you give her a reason? I'd be annoyed too if my H said "because I said so".
One of the things my H accused me of, and rightly so looking back, is that I mothered him too much. Told him what to. Often he said "I'm not one of the kids". I did not LISTEN to that, and it fed into the predicament I'm in now.
Good question. I believe the real reason was to prove that the reason she was leaving this morning was exactly what I suspected and she what she initially denied, and then confirmed.
Understand that this was not a pattern of behavior. I have never tried to prevent her from doing anything like this before. I have never said "because I said so" to her.
M 53 W 54, M since 98 D15, D19 8/2013 discovered EA, W maintained contact with OM until 10/14 7/2/17 W said she wanted S, 7/25/17 moved out of MBR 12/17 W says moving out 5/18, W still in home.
Yes! Once I told her I didn't want her to go, she said "well I'm not going to sit here and....."
We both did our own things Sunday and I returned to the house around 4:30. We had discussed me grilling and I asked if that was still the plan. She said in a sweet voice "If you still want to". Anyway, life picked up as if none of it ever happened.
I thought about pointing out to her that all I ever really wanted was mature honest communication, but didn't mention it.
M 53 W 54, M since 98 D15, D19 8/2013 discovered EA, W maintained contact with OM until 10/14 7/2/17 W said she wanted S, 7/25/17 moved out of MBR 12/17 W says moving out 5/18, W still in home.
I thought about pointing out to her that all I ever really wanted was mature honest communication, but didn't mention it.
That was until right after posting that. Went downstairs to French press the second round of coffee. (don't worry, I've done it for years. Not just after BD) W comes into the kitchen and starts chit-chat. I asked her if I could say something about what happened yesterday. If she would hear me out and then I would welcome her comments. She said yes. I went back through the series of events including the part about her confessing that she was leaving to avoid pressure after ridiculing me for thinking just that, and said " I never wanted to stop you from going anywhere, especially not church. I just wanted honest communication."
She just stopped and had a slightly sad face. No words, as expected. I waited because as the MC pointed out. I think a lot faster. lol After a minute I asked "Do you disagree with any of that?" She said "No, not really" still looking sadish. I went on with the coffee and she throws in. "That was the only reason, I did want to try that church." I reply. "I never said it was the only reason" I go on with the coffee and she continues to get ready for work. After burning up another hairdryer she comes into the MBR looking for the travel dryer and acting like nothing ever happened.
Last edited by RR17; 11/12/1801:13 PM.
M 53 W 54, M since 98 D15, D19 8/2013 discovered EA, W maintained contact with OM until 10/14 7/2/17 W said she wanted S, 7/25/17 moved out of MBR 12/17 W says moving out 5/18, W still in home.
What was your real reason for you to tell her you didn't want her to go? Why didn't you give her a reason? I'd be annoyed too if my H said "because I said so".
I agree, it sounds very controlling. After reading the followup posts I'm still confused as to why you didn't want her to go. Because you felt she was "running away" from pressure (sex?) You've got to keep giving her time and space, you're not out of the woods yet. If she wants to go do something then let her, you don't own her. If you're upset about it then talk to her about why. Don't make demands.
This whole extended exchange seems very pursuing and not DBing.
And controlling.
Every time you talk about your wifes communication style, I get an impression of a woman who has had her thought and feelings dismissed so often (possibly because they are judged as insufficiently logical?) that she doesnt feel safe sharing.
Im not seeing how your current approach is going to help her overcome that.
Me: 44 H: 44 Kids: 20, 16, 16, and 10 Together/Married: 22 years H announced he was emotionally detached and considering D: 4/4/16 H announced he is going to try to stay and reconnect: 5/1/16
What was your real reason for you to tell her you didn't want her to go? Why didn't you give her a reason? I'd be annoyed too if my H said "because I said so".
I agree, it sounds very controlling. After reading the followup posts I'm still confused as to why you didn't want her to go. Because you felt she was "running away" from pressure (sex?) You've got to keep giving her time and space, you're not out of the woods yet. If she wants to go do something then let her, you don't own her. If you're upset about it then talk to her about why. Don't make demands.
It was very controlling. First, let me say that I didn't start the whole conversation. I was asked, "what is that look." Meaning what are you thinking. I shared my honest thoughts. I was ridiculed for having these thoughts. The most ridiculous fantasy thoughts. I stood up to her. I stuck my foot down. (yes, controlling behavior). Also very much a 180 as I have never demanded she not go anywhere before. At that point, she got mad and finally admitted that I was correct and why she was leaving.
There was no pressure to have sex. No pressure to have anything. I was in bed enjoying coffee.
Why didn't I want her to go? I really didn't care. I was pissed that my thoughts, that I was asked to share and that were correct, had been ridiculed. And until I stuck my foot down, she refused to acknowledge the truth.
Stander, I hope that you realize that I am in no way justifying my behavior, simply clarifying.
Quote
Every time you talk about your wifes communication style, I get an impression of a woman who has had her thought and feelings dismissed so often (possibly because they are judged as insufficiently logical?) that she doesnt feel safe sharing.
Im not seeing how your current approach is going to help her overcome that.
Well, Rose, perhaps I am doing a poor job of painting an accurate picture of her communication style. She has never felt safe sharing. I remember during the honeymoon phase of our courtship, asking her what she was thinking and she always said "nothing". Make it something negative and you will only hear it during an emotional outbreak.
When her daughters ask her to do something that she disagrees with, they get a "We'll see" or a "Maybe later". When all the while her real answer is No.
See where this is going, Rose?
IMO, she is going to have to overcome that on her own. I suspect some childhood, something, caused by my MIL, whom I love dearly. W and I have in fact discussed this very subject. It was great at first, imagine a mate that never expresses a negative thought. Problem is they are still there, bottling up, ready to explode. I have in fact tried to make it as welcoming as I possibly can for her to open up. I'm not perfect and old habits die hard.
I'm not willing to own this one.
In this instance ,it was my feelings that were attacked with so-called logic. lol
M 53 W 54, M since 98 D15, D19 8/2013 discovered EA, W maintained contact with OM until 10/14 7/2/17 W said she wanted S, 7/25/17 moved out of MBR 12/17 W says moving out 5/18, W still in home.
I, too, am confused. I didnt get the part about her ridiculing you. From what you describe, you were hoping for sex and she was [possibly] trying to avoid it? I think you took that personally...hence the irritation and because I said so. People who regularly say well see and maybe could be conflict avoidant but they also could just be buying time until they are able to think things through. I do this with my kids often. Usually because my first reaction tends to be no and I want to give it some thought first and understand why its a no. Regardless...all of this still sounds like pressure to me and is the opposite of DBing. I get that it is frustrating. I get that you just want to be past this part. I, for one, am very envious that you have the opportunity to do some piecing as my H is solidly out of the home and all indications are that he plans to stay there. Keep working on GAL and DBing RR17. This is a marathon, not a sprint.
I never said you caused her communication issues, just that your current approach does not seem likely to encourage more open communication.
If she had said she wanted to go to church to avoid being home alone with you on Sunday, how would you really have reacted?
Perhaps because this is such a big issue in your marriage, you also seem to have little tolerance for normal levels of social deflection. (Like her saying, "We'll see" or "Maybe later.")
Me: 44 H: 44 Kids: 20, 16, 16, and 10 Together/Married: 22 years H announced he was emotionally detached and considering D: 4/4/16 H announced he is going to try to stay and reconnect: 5/1/16
It was very controlling. First, let me say that I didn't start the whole conversation. I was asked, "what is that look." Meaning what are you thinking. I shared my honest thoughts. I was ridiculed for having these thoughts. The most ridiculous fantasy thoughts.
I appreciate the extra info but I'm still not clear. It sounds like she asked what you were thinking and you told her about some sexual fantasy, and she rejected it and it made you mad and you retaliated by telling her she can't go to church. Am I reading that correctly? Seems like you're leaving some huge gaps and expecting us to fill them, which is fine but I can't help but wonder if that communication style (which can lead to a LOT of misunderstanding) extends to your communications with your W. Also that sounds very much like a NMMNG "covert contract".
Quote
I stood up to her. I stuck my foot down. (yes, controlling behavior). Also very much a 180 as I have never demanded she not go anywhere before.
But that's not a good 180!!!!! 180 doesn't mean "do bad behavior that I didn't do before"!
Quote
At that point, she got mad and finally admitted that I was correct and why she was leaving.
That's great that she admitted to that part of it, I just think you went about it the wrong way.
Quote
There was no pressure to have sex. No pressure to have anything. I was in bed enjoying coffee.
If the "most ridiculous fantasy thoughts" you expressed to her were sexual in nature, then do you think it's fair to suggest that she may have read your expectations into it? If so then that IS pressure. That may not have been your intent, but try and see it from her perspective.
Quote
Stander, I hope that you realize that I am in no way justifying my behavior, simply clarifying.
And I hope you understand we are not trying to attack you, we are trying to help you see your actions from an outside perspective. Many of the corrections we make to people here are not because they are INTENTIONALLY doing something wrong, most of the time is is completely accidental. It's hard for any of us to see things from someone else's perspective. We are wrapped up in what is happening to us and trying to justify our actions to ourselves, often when they shouldn't be justified. That's part of the value of these forums is you can get an impartial 3rd party view on your interactions with your spouse. Sometimes it stings, but growth does come with growing pains!
Quote
I remember during the honeymoon phase of our courtship, asking her what she was thinking and she always said "nothing". Make it something negative and you will only hear it during an emotional outbreak.
Well that often comes as a result of asking "what is wrong" or "why are you acting like that" or other words that put someone on the defensive. Often that will warrant a "nothing" response, whereas if you ask "how are you feeling today?" you'll open the door to her sharing her feelings. We often treat feelings like they are right or wrong but they are not, they are ALL valid. Listen and validate.
Last edited by Cadet; 11/12/1809:38 PM. Reason: Start a new thread message
I appreciate the extra info but I'm still not clear. It sounds like she asked what you were thinking and you told her about some sexual fantasy, and she rejected it and it made you mad and you retaliated by telling her she can't go to church. Am I reading that correctly? Seems like you're leaving some huge gaps and expecting us to fill them, which is fine but I can't help but wonder if that communication style (which can lead to a LOT of misunderstanding) extends to your communications with your W. Also that sounds very much like a NMMNG "covert contract".
Dang, I did a really poor job of explaining. There was never any discussion of sex, yesterday. None. W asked what that look is for. I said that I thought she was going to this new church with her friend to avoid being alone here with me. That's it.
She ridiculed that idea. Acting as if it was the most ridiculous idea and furthest from the truth.
Once I told her that I didn't want her to go, she admitted to not wanting to be there and be possibly approached about either sex or an R discussion. The very things that I told her that I was thinking were her motivation to go.
Because the home was empty and W wasn't usually going anywhere. In the past, I had tried to initiate sex. No undue pressure. Just an attempt to initiate that then lead to an R talk in the past.
Hope this is more clear.
BTW, what is a "NMMNG "covert contract"?
M 53 W 54, M since 98 D15, D19 8/2013 discovered EA, W maintained contact with OM until 10/14 7/2/17 W said she wanted S, 7/25/17 moved out of MBR 12/17 W says moving out 5/18, W still in home.
Because the home was empty and W wasn't usually going anywhere. In the past, I had tried to initiate sex. No undue pressure. Just an attempt to initiate that then lead to an R talk in the past.
This is pressure. Whether you intended to initiate intimacy or not this time is not important. You have done it in the past and it is what she was expecting you to do that day.
Look at it from her side ...
1. She expects you to initiate intimacy 2. She does not want to be intimate 3. In the past when she has rejected your advances it has led to R talks 4. She does not want to have an R talk. 3. She does not want to hurt your feelings so she gives you a non committal response
You call her on it, it leads to her being defensive, and "ridiculing" you, and finally admitting that she did not want to have sex with you. You then tell her you don't want to go "Because I said so".
Where exactly in this interaction did you score a win?
Well RR, just take what happened as a bump on the long road both of you both have taken. There have been some previous and donīt know how many in the future.
You have been a patient man RR, You love your W and you are commited to your MR. Keep getting the possitive outcome of your R with W. Next Sunday do a 180 and you get out on the morning. Let time be the pressure valve: keep it open.
Patience RR
WW H(me): 53 W: 48 T: 27 M: 22 S: 18 Piecing since 03/2016 Saw the light in the storm
I never said you caused her communication issues, just that your current approach does not seem likely to encourage more open communication.
If she had said she wanted to go to church to avoid being home alone with you on Sunday, how would you really have reacted?
Perhaps because this is such a big issue in your marriage, you also seem to have little tolerance for normal levels of social deflection. (Like her saying, "We'll see" or "Maybe later.")
If she had said she wanted to go to church to avoid being home alone with you on Sunday, how would you really have reacted?
I would have respected and accepted this response.
All I ever wanted was honest communication.
Originally Posted by FlySolo
Originally Posted by RR17
Because the home was empty and W wasn't usually going anywhere. In the past, I had tried to initiate sex. No undue pressure. Just an attempt to initiate that then lead to an R talk in the past.
This is pressure. Whether you intended to initiate intimacy or not this time is not important. You have done it in the past and it is what she was expecting you to do that day.
Look at it from her side ...
1. She expects you to initiate intimacy 2. She does not want to be intimate 3. In the past when she has rejected your advances it has led to R talks 4. She does not want to have an R talk. 3. She does not want to hurt your feelings so she gives you a non committal response
You call her on it, it leads to her being defensive, and "ridiculing" you, and finally admitting that she did not want to have sex with you. You then tell her you don't want to go "Because I said so".
Where exactly in this interaction did you score a win?
Where did I score a win? I had no intentions of scoring a win. I did get validation that my ridiculous assumption was not so ridiculous, but I knew that. Who ever wins in these interactions?
Quote
3. She does not want to hurt your feelings so she gives you a non committal response
This is correct. Only it is often correct. Too often and not just with me. Whatever the motive, it is not honest.
M 53 W 54, M since 98 D15, D19 8/2013 discovered EA, W maintained contact with OM until 10/14 7/2/17 W said she wanted S, 7/25/17 moved out of MBR 12/17 W says moving out 5/18, W still in home.
Well RR, just take what happened as a bump on the long road both of you both have taken. There have been some previous and donīt know how many in the future.
You have been a patient man RR, You love your W and you are commited to your MR. Keep getting the possitive outcome of your R with W. Next Sunday do a 180 and you get out on the morning. Let time be the pressure valve: keep it open.
Patience RR
Thanks neffer. And thank you Rose888, AnotherStander, DejaVu6 and FlySolo. I do appreciate your input.
These things happen and at least for me, it takes some time and feedback to understand what exactly did just happen. As for winners and losers? I'm interested in moving toward a healthy R.
It sometimes gets frustrating when although I have tried my best to paint an accurate unbiased picture of the turn of events and still my eloquence fails me.
As for any motive? Well, that would assume that it was premeditated. It was not.
As I read some of these responses I sometimes cringe. You're correct, she didn't want to have sex. I would have no way of knowing this without initiating. All signals seemed Green. Guess what? I don't like to get rejected either. Yes, it was pressure. If she had said yes, would it still seem like pressure? Back before BD, this time of the week was a favorable time to initiate. Hindsight's 20/20. Every other week I am serving at our church. This time? I did nothing except supposedly have a look, which W could never have seen across the dim room and she didn't have her glasses on anyway. Why did I say "Because I said so"? Because I didn't have a good reason. I hadn't planned this out. I was pissed about the ridicule and wanted, no I felt I deserved a more honest answer.
I will say that there was a win. The win being that we have moved on fairly rapidly. W came home last night and started telling me that the heat in her old building isn't working and rain leaks into the closet blah blah blah... I stopped what I was doing. Which was composing a response on this DB forum. lol. I gave her my full attention. She didn't notice my haircut, but what's new? We watched an hour of classic TV and went to our respective bedrooms.
All in all, this is positive progress. In the past, W would have held onto her position (that I was ridiculous for thinking..) regardless of the fact that she had admitted it, and would have harbored resent for at least a day or two. She would have never listened to my position (that all I wanted was honest communication) without judgment. Yet now she did.
Making sausage and DBing isn't pretty but can be well worth it.
M 53 W 54, M since 98 D15, D19 8/2013 discovered EA, W maintained contact with OM until 10/14 7/2/17 W said she wanted S, 7/25/17 moved out of MBR 12/17 W says moving out 5/18, W still in home.
Last edited by Cadet; 11/13/1804:40 PM. Reason: Links
M 53 W 54, M since 98 D15, D19 8/2013 discovered EA, W maintained contact with OM until 10/14 7/2/17 W said she wanted S, 7/25/17 moved out of MBR 12/17 W says moving out 5/18, W still in home.
